Stuff You Should Know - How easy is it to steal a nuclear bomb?

Episode Date: August 25, 2009

Nuclear weapons are extremely well guarded, so stealing one would be quite tricky. Join Josh and Chuck as they discuss nabbing nuclear weapons, and some surprising facts about nuclear accidents, in this podcast from HowStuffWorks.com. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com. Everybody loves Altoids, little mints that come in tents. Well, once the mints are gone, you can do some really neat things with a leftover tents. People have made MP3 players, cameras, even stoves. Check out HowStuffWorks.com slash Tenivators to find out more. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

I'm Josh Clark, sitting across from me is the always likable Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Not so, not so. Oh, it's true, Chuck, everybody likes you. You're the most affable fella I know. I used to think so. Yeah, you are, believe me, buddy. Thanks, man.

Yeah, Chuck's a little down today, so we're gonna talk about stealing nuclear bombs. Yeah, it'll brighten your day, won't it? Chuck, of course, you've seen the 1985 Robert Zemeckis classic Back to the Future. I knew you were gonna bring that up. Well, you know me pretty well. I even wrote Down Back to the Future in here somewhere.

We're in sync, my friend. Yes. Arguably, that was Thomas F. Wilson's greatest role. Who was that? The guy who played Biff. Oh, his only role. No, actually, I was looking at him on Internet Movie Database. That guy has been in a lot of stuff.

Really? Well, he's Biff. He was also in Action Jackson. He's Biff. Did he play Biff? He had a cameo as Biff. It's like Frank Oz and the Blues Brothers. Right.

Well, if you remember, as I'm sure you do, since you wrote Down Back to the Future on your notes, there was kind of a subplot going on with Doc, and he's dealings with Middle Eastern terrorists. Oh, I didn't remember that. I thought this was a podcast on Jigawatts. Get it? Yeah.

So, okay, well, then you do remember that Doc was selling some plutonium to these terrorists, right, or they wanted plutonium from him. Right. And the reason, of course, that they wanted plutonium, he kept it for the DeLorean, by the way. Of course. Okay, but the reason they wanted plutonium

is because, ostensibly, they were going to manufacture a nuclear weapon. Right, and that is not outside the realm of possibilities. Scarily enough, it's not, Chuck. You know, there was another movie, too. The Back to the Future, too, yeah. No. 1986 was a movie called The Manhattan Project,

where a teenager steals enriched uranium to make an atomic bomb for his science project. I remember that. John Lithgow. Yes. Bad movie. I haven't seen it, though. It wasn't bad, if I remember correctly.

Well, everyone's on you. As you would say, that was right in my wheelhouse. I was 10 at the time. Right. Thinking of making my own nuclear weapons. Right. It's the same time as war games, which we'll get to in a minute.

Oh, we will? Yes. All right. Oh, I see on the agenda that you have war games written down as well. This one is rife with movie and TV references. So, Chuck, let's talk about stealing a nuclear weapon. Okay.

How easy is it? Well, first of all, we should go and say it's probably impossible to steal a nuclear warhead. Okay, I'm not gonna go along with that. Really? Yeah. It's really, really difficult. It would not be difficult.

Let's say you're Iran. Okay. And it's 1991, and you're in contact with a bunch of KGB officers, or maybe some Soviet military generals. Okay. The coup just happened. There's no longer USSR.

Sure. Maybe you're friends with somebody in Kazakhstan. Right. All of these people had access to strategic and tactical nuclear arms. Actually, there was a huge question over what was gonna happen with the former Soviet Union's 27,000 tactical and strategic nuclear weapons

when the Soviet Union dissolved. What happened to them? Actually, there was a really good effort that was made by the former Soviet republics like Kazakhstan and Ukraine and all of these groups that actually were already infighting with Russia. Right. And the Russian government to move

all of these nukes into Russia. Okay. And I think they did it with pretty amazing speed. Right. There were UN resolutions. There were talks between the US and Russia and these former Soviet republics. Right.

And everybody got their nukes back into Russian borders in Russian control. Now, see, I read a Reuters article when I was researching this, and that is one of the scenarios they pose as one way it could happen is during transport. That's when they're probably most vulnerable. Yeah, you would think so, wouldn't you?

Yeah. But let's say you're an Iranian official. You got the money, you got the means, and not to pick on Iran here. Maybe we should go with Jamaica. Sure. I don't wanna tick off anyone in Iran. Right.

But let's say you're a Jamaican official, you've got tons of cash and you want a nuke. There's a huge coup going on. There's the dissolution of a former superpower and there's 27,000 nukes out there. Right. The money to purchase one and the means of getting it out of the country and back to Jamaica.

My friend, you have a nuke. Yeah, I guess I was thinking in terms of these days, it's a lot more difficult than it would have been in 1991. How so? Well, I think security has been tightened down somewhat. You think? Since 1991. Yeah.

You're about to shoot me down, aren't you? No, I'm not. From what I could tell from reading up on this is that it's more likely that someone could steal the components of a nuclear weapon and assemble it themselves. Sure. And then load a 30-foot bomb on the back of their truck

and drive it through borders. Right, Chuck, which makes people with the information in their heads of how to assemble a nuclear bomb from all these various parts or more to the point, what parts you'd need to make a nuclear bomb incredibly valuable. Absolutely. Have you heard of AQ Khan?

I have, but I know you're the Khan man. Nice one. Well, Khan actually is the father of Pakistani nuclear proliferation. Right, which is a country's program that we're pretty worried about. Well, yeah, they have the bomb. India has the bomb.

They do. He also was under house arrest for five years, from 2004 until February 2009, because he admitted to being involved in nuclear proliferation, illegal nuclear proliferation. I can't say that. That's tough. In other countries like Libya, Iran,

he was basically selling his knowledge to the highest bidder for their own nuclear program. Doesn't surprise me. So I mean, it may be hard to steal. Actually, it's incredibly hard to put together a nuclear bomb. It's very hard to steal one, but if you really look at it using maybe Aqam's razor or something like that, it would actually probably be the easiest thing to do,

would be to just go in and steal a nuclear bomb rather than stealing the parts. Right. What's the easiest part to steal when you want to assemble a nuclear bomb? Well, the easiest part would be the explosive mechanism, the TNT, which you need a lot of. Enrich uranium doesn't do much on its own.

You need to explode it, as they say. And that would be the easiest part. You'd have to build a casing for it, which wouldn't be super easy, but it's at least something you can manufacture yourself. And the hardest thing would probably be to get the super enriched, highly enriched uranium. Or plutonium, if you could find dock.

Yeah, that would be tough. Do you know why you would want plutonium or highly enriched uranium? What kind of bomb or why? I would say to go back to the future or to build a bomb. Yes, specifically a fission bomb. OK, now what's the difference? I know you know the difference between fission and fission.

How do you know I know that? Well, I'm a smart guy, because I don't know, and I hope one of us does. I do. OK. Would you like to know? Yes. OK, so a fission bomb is where you're

taking a really heavy, dense material, the nuclei are heavy. OK. Right, the atomic weight is heavy. Gotcha. And what you're doing is you're stripping the nuclei of neutrons. OK, I'm with you. Which in turn releases more neutrons and so on and so on.

Right, so you have a chain reaction. And once it's highly sustained, it's called? Supercritical mass. Right, you've reached supercritical mass. Because neutron is knocking neutrons from nuclei and so on and so on and so on. And it's happening really quickly, and it releases this huge amount of energy.

Now going back at that point. No, and like you were saying, you need TNT to start this chain reaction. Yeah, a lot of it. And with a fusion bomb, you're actually doing the opposite. You take a very light substance like hydrogen, and you take a tremendous amount of heat from an explosion of TNT, and you smash the stuff together,

and that creates another very big explosion. So which one is more likely scenario for stealing one? I would imagine a fusion bomb because it's the easiest to make. But the problem is getting highly enriched uranium or plutonium is very difficult. Exactly. Although you can find a lot of it in Russia and the US, right? Yeah, there's a lot of it that's unaccounted for,

which is kind of scary, or leftover. Did you read that thing about Robert Gates from 2008? No. He basically came out and accused Moscow of not knowing where a lot of their plutonium and highly enriched uranium was. Well, I could see that because when the Soviet Union dissolved, there was a lot of chaos and disorganization going on,

and a lot of this excess nuclear material floating around. So there's no way they could account for all of it. Well, he was saying we have no problem with the tactical nukes or the strategic nukes. Right. You want to know the difference between those two? Sure. OK, so I'm impressed.

A strategic nuke, this is right up my alley. Sure. A strategic nuke is, say, like a long-range intercontinental ballistic missile, right? Right. And a tactical nuke would be maybe attached to a missile on a bomber. And the real distinction I read someone put it

was a strategic nuke is meant to prevent war. A tactical nuke is meant to end a war or win a war, right? So you have mutual destruction. Those are strategic nukes. If somebody goes in and drops a bomb on Hiroshima, that would be a tactical nuke. Right. Look at you.

You're a regular Philip Oppenheimer. Oh, man, that hurts. Robert Oppenheimer, by the way, for those of you who are paying attention, was the father of the atom bomb, not Philip. He was the director of the Manhattan Project. Right. And Philip was his brother, who was, from what I understand,

didn't do much with his life. No. Philip was played by John Lithgow. OK. That's good. You're ready to travel in 2023. And since 1981, Gate One Travel has been providing more of the world for less.

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Wherever you choose to wander, plan your next dining adventure at visitmississippi.org slash dining. Mississippi, Wanderers, welcome. You want to talk about security a little bit? I do. The US says whenever there's large arsenal of weapons, they have barriers, guards, surveillance cameras, motion sensors, and, of course, background checks.

Seem like enough to you? No, because that Reuters article I read was talking about the other scenario I talked about, besides being hijacked in transport, was that potentially a Taliban or al-Qaeda member could gain employment at a nuclear facility, despite background checks. Sure, well, very few of them have, like,

member of Taliban 2002 to present on their resume. And you wouldn't think that someone could get in there, but you also wouldn't think that someone could take lessons on how to fly a plane here in the United States and fly them into buildings that didn't seem likely either. So it is likely, or not likely, but possible. It is possible, agreed. And there's also another real threat that's probably

the most prominent. And I guess we should probably say here, maybe a little too late. We don't mean to stir up any paranoia among anybody. It's just an interesting question. We meant to stir up paranoia about fluoride, but not this one. Right.

Probably the most realistic threat would be a dirty bomb, right? Yeah, which is made from what they call nuclear junk, which is not highly enriched uranium and plutonium, correct? It's a lesser quality. No, I think it's a nuclear bomb lacking a device to properly detonate it. Oh, is that what it is?

So you don't have the material needed or the energy needed to create like a super critical mass, but let's say you blew it up with a bunch of TNT that was less than critical or super critical. You're still spreading radioactivity. OK, I didn't know if you're talking about depleted uranium. Did you hear about the Russian guy that was caught? Who?

The guy who poisoned Lukchenko? No, this is in 2002. And this is one of those deals where I couldn't find a lot following up. In 2002, a Russian man was busted smuggling 27 tons of enriched uranium at a Siberian border checkpoint. Holy cow. I did a little follow-up, and they said at first,

oh, no, this was just a regular shipment, because we send depleted uranium to Kazakhstan so it can be made into nuclear fuel to be sent back to Russia. That's all it was. And then they came out with a second statement that said, oh, I'm sorry, it wasn't enriched. It was actually depleted uranium,

and so it wasn't really a big deal. And I couldn't find anything else after that. 27 tons, though. That's scary. Well, this proves there's a black market for it. Oh, definitely. You know, we're using a depleted uranium as tank piercing bullets or artillery, right?

Oh, really? And apparently there's a real growing concern among Iraq veterans and Afghanistan veterans that they're around this and handling this ammunition. Right. They're like, what's going to happen? Am I radioactive? And we're going to be able to have kids.

So it's probably going to be the next Agent Orange's depleted uranium shells. Wow. Yeah. But apparently they go right through a tank. Well, I would imagine so. Yeah. You want to talk about Los Alamos?

Sure. Go ahead. You go ahead. November 2006, Los Alamos National Laboratory. There was a security breach, and officials were worried that an employee passed information concerning special access controls that would detonate a bomb. So it wasn't a whole device, but important valuable information

and secrets were being sold. Yeah, using PALs, right? Yes. OK, so PAL, I checked out there. It can be what John Fuller, who wrote this fine article, mentions is that it takes two people to enter a code at the same time. War games.

Exactly. Go ahead. Well, what's that called? It's called Permissive Action Link? Yes. Oh, OK. And if you remember the very first scene of the movie War Games, a young Michael Madsen was actually

one of the security guards. You're going to bark all day, little doggy. That was excellent. Wow. Yeah, young Michael Madsen was one of the two security personnel in the silo that was supposed to turn the key at the same time. So it's a two-man operation.

One person cannot set off the bomb. So it's a pretty good measure. That's one. That's one type of PAL. There's also quantum encryption to create all sorts of different codes. And basically, if you can't just press a button, any barrier between you and pressing that button,

any step you have to take to launch a nuclear weapon is a permissive action link. OK. So when you hear the fingers on the button, that's really two fingers on two buttons. And it took several steps to get to that point. Thankfully. There's another way you can get a bomb.

And I realize, Chuck, I never finished a sentence earlier. I went off on a tangent about the difference between tactical and strategic. I'm so smart. Hello, please. What Gates was talking about when he said that he was accusing Moscow of not knowing where all their stuff was.

There's a whole bunch of nuclear mines, nuclear artillery shells, basically nuclear junk that he suspects Moscow has no idea where it is. That's the stuff that would likely just make its way into a dirty bomb, which is why it's a bigger threat. I could see that for sure. I'm glad I got that off my chest.

You know, one official, we were talking about Pakistan earlier, one US official said that if they can smuggle out the amount of heroin that they smuggle out, then they could smuggle out nuclear materials. Sure. Pretty much. Although I suspect that there is a tacit approval of heroin smuggling in Afghanistan as far as the US goes.

Yeah. I've read articles on it. US generals are just like, we're not even paying attention to that. That has nothing to do with what we're here for. Right. I could see that. The DEA is over there pulling out their hair.

Right. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Sure. Well, one thing I was going to mention, too, is if this weren't a legitimate concern, then there probably wouldn't be an official name for this. Yeah.

By the US. The Navy, right? Yeah, the Navy calls it a broken arrow, which is from the John Woo, well, not from the John Woo movie. John Woo, I think, got it from the Navy. Gotcha. But that is the name for the seizure, theft, loss, or loss of a nuclear weapon or component.

So component is kind of the key component. Yeah, or if you steal the whole thing, if Jamaica stole one or bought one, that would be bad. Right. I love your idea here. I want to see this like a Jamaican guy on a flatbed with a nuclear bomb in the back of it. So Chuck, there's another way you

could get a nuclear weapon if you wanted to. Let's hear it. You could travel to Tybee Island, Georgia. Yeah. There is a 51-year-old nuclear bomb, thermonuclear weapon, somewhere off the coast of Tybee, and not too far off of it. They're taken right off of the coast. They have no idea where it is.

Yeah, so close that they can't find it. Yeah. Distressing. You know what else is distressing? What? The Department of Defense recognizes that at least one serious nuclear accident has occurred every single year since the atomic age began.

Yeah. Distressing. I don't know what's more unsettling that once happened every year, they qualified it with at least one or more. Yeah. Should we talk about some of these accidents? Yeah, totally.

Reported accidents? Yeah, there's been a bunch of them. There have. This one's good. In 1958, a B-47 bomber flying over Mars Bluff, South Carolina accidentally dropped an atomic bomb, which left a crater 75 feet wide and 35 feet deep. We've talked about that one.

That was the one that they abandoned searching for that nuke off the coast of Savannah to go deal with. Oh, is that what happened? Yeah. OK. Yeah, so they were looking for this nuke for about a month. Couldn't find it. And then one goes off, or the TNT went off.

Right. Bigger problem. Yeah, and they all evacuated over to South Carolina. Yeah, that's a good one. You got another one for me? Yeah, this one is kind of unsettling. In 1965, some guys were basically, I guess, docking an airplane that had nuclear weapons aboard

on the USS Ticonderoga. I guess they hit a wave and the airplane and its nukes rolled off into the Sea of Japan. Transport, dude. 16,000 feet of ocean, luckily. It seems like all the accidents and security threats deal with transport. Yeah, or what about the transfer from a submarine

onto the USS Holland in 1981? Yeah, go ahead. Well, that's pretty much it, except for while they were moving the nuke from the submarine to the USS Holland, it started to fall 17 feet and somebody very quickly pulled the emergency brake and it stopped right above the deck. That was close. A handbrake.

Yes. I'd like to see that. Yeah. Did the guy literally, like, yank it up? Yeah, and I'll bet he was treated to around that night. Yeah, but more than one. You know, there's a UN agency that is entrusted with preempting this kind of thing,

illegal proliferation. And they said in 2007, they said that the theft and loss of nuclear and radioactive materials remains a persistent problem. Is it the IAEA? Yeah. So everyone is on record basically saying, this happens all the time.

There are hundreds of cases in Russia of people stealing or trying to steal this stuff. You're ready to travel in 2023. And since 1981, Gate One travel has been providing more of the world for less. Let Gate One handle the planning for you with affordable escort tours and European River Cruises. And right now, through January 30th,

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where sweet, spicy, and smoky flavors satisfy your spirits. Wherever you wander. Plan today at visitmississipi.org slash dining. Mississippi. Wanderers welcome. What was it Jay Philip Oppenheimer said? When he saw the first nuclear bomb explode? I am become death.

Destroy of worlds. Destroy of worlds. Talk about Pandora's box, man. No kidding. I've got some more stats if you're interested. Or do we need to wrap this puppy up? No, no, that's OK. There were 150 incidents of such action of loss or theft

in 2006 alone. Josh, the majority of these involve sealed radioactive sources. And in 73% of these cases, the lost or stolen materials have not been recovered. That's fantastic. So basically, what you're finding, what you're saying here, is that there is a lot of unaccounted for nuclear

material on the world market. Right. Well, there's no international treaty for this, I found out. Oh, yeah? Yeah, there are treaties. There's the physical protection of nuclear material treaty of 1980. But it's all for domestic use, storage, and transport.

There's no international work going on here. Well, the problem is in the post-911 world as well, Chuck. I mean, we're not fighting people who honor treaties. Like, we're still looking at nuclear non-proliferation through the paradigm of the Cold War, which is long over. You know, it used to be we had, like I said earlier, mutual assured destruction where the USSR and the US had so many nukes that they could wipe out the world

within seconds of one another launching. And it kept anybody from doing anything. How about a nice game of tic-tac-toe? Exactly. There's no, that doesn't exist anymore. There's no polarization. And we have to rethink this, especially if there's no accountability or not enough accountability.

Yeah, it's almost less safe now than during the arms race. Yeah. And how do you get something, how do you take something out of existence when it's already been created? I don't know. Can it happen? It would take, I don't think it can happen.

I think it could happen, but you'd have to be really dedicated. Right. And you would also have to be pretty cold-blooded, because guys like AQ Khan would have to get shot in the back of the head. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, and not just AQ Khan, but all of our guys too.

Yeah, all the AQ Khan. Basically, anybody who knows how to make a nuclear bomb would have to be executed. Right. Wow. So thanks for joining us. If you want to know more about nuclear anything, we've got a bunch of it on the site.

That's howstuffworks.com. We have a handy search bar for your convenience, so you don't have to troll from channel to channel, page by page. And since I said that, and Jerry's eyes are crossed because she's so bored, I think that means it's time for a listener mail. Josh, I'm just going to call this an eerie Pennsylvania email.

Get it? I do. This is from Sarah. She's a student there at a collegiate high school, I guess, collegiate academy. In your stupid or stupid people happier podcast, you talked a lot about the subjectiveness of happiness, as well as all the references you made to your superstuff

guide to the economy. Now on sale in iTunes. It reminded me of a project my AP macro economics class conducted at the end of last year. Most nations measured their economic success in increments of GDP and the like. But the nation of Bhutan created a similar scale called Gross National Happiness.

I've written on that. Really? Yeah. I believe you. Basically, it's an extensive survey that they did. And she and her classmates decided for a project to do the same thing at her high school, to find out what the happiness scale was

at a collegiate academy. So she wrote in and told me this. And I was like, that's cool. I was like, but you didn't tell me any of the results or anything, so how about it? So she emailed me back and said, all right, here we go. 12 statements in four categories is what they were rating, as well as male and female and grade level

to define the gross collegiate happiness scale. Each was rated on a scale of one, zero to five, with one being the least agreeable to our statement, I guess, zero. I predicted that we would have achieved an overall happiness index of about 25, but surprisingly, we scored significantly higher. And our happiness scale was a 3.58 out of five.

That's pretty good. On an economic scale, and including outliers, is pretty great, she says. The most agreeable statement and positive quality that made students feel happy was a statement, I feel accepted at collegiate academy, which received an average of 4.29. And the principal was satisfied with it,

although you could tell she wanted a perfect 5.0. She obviously hasn't studied economics or statistics recently. So that was from Sarah in Erie, Pennsylvania. That is why Sarah is headed to Yale this fall. Yeah, Sarah's a very bright student, and sounds like her classmates are pretty happy there, collegiate academy.

Yeah, so good for them. Yeah, the gross national happiness is pretty cool. Yeah. Bhutan's very serious about it. The king abdicated his throne to establish a democracy because they determined that democracy made for happier people. Wow, that's pretty cool.

Yeah. Well, thanks a lot, Sarah. Well, if you're Yale bound like Sarah or don't know where you're headed yet, you can send us an email. Like us. Detailing anything you like. Do we have anything we want to ask for, Chuck?

No, we've been getting good feedback lately. Thanks for that. So if you want to just send us an email, I guess is what we're trying to say, right? Yes. You can send that to stuffpodcast at howstuffworks.com. For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com. Want more howstuffworks?

Check out our blogs on the howstuffworks.com home page. Hey, if you're a fan of Altoids, the curiously strong mints, you probably have a lot of empty tins laying around. You can do some pretty cool stuff with them. You can make survival kits, flash drives, even robots. Check out Altoids on Facebook to find out more. Brought to you by the reinvented 2012 Camry. It's ready.

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