Stuff You Should Know - How No-fly Zones Work

Episode Date: March 29, 2013

They have become such a ubiquitous tool used by the UN and NATO to intervene in international crises, that it seems like no-fly zones have been around forever. But it was only the 1990s that the first one was enacted and they've only be used twice more since then. Learn about this peculiar military tool with Chuck and Josh. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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They just have way better names for what they call, like what we would call a jackmove or being robbed. They call civil acid. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. He's mad as heck and he's not gonna take it anymore. I said heck. I revised a classic movie quote into heck. Yeah, network. Man, have you seen that recently? I've never seen it.

It was on Netflix streaming and I had it in my instant queue and passed it up. Well, you should watch it again because you'll watch it now and go, man, when was this made? So far ahead of its time. Oh, really? As far as like how things are in the media. Like coma. Yeah, but when you watch network back then, people said things like how ridiculous like stuff like this could never happen. Oh, I see. It's prescient, right? Very much so. Yeah, I'll have to watch it then. Yeah, it's a good one. That's uh, is it like, um, what is it? What's that Aaron Sorkin show? I don't like Aaron Sorkin. News hour? That's it. Yeah, that just stinks. Is that what it's called? News hour? Newsroom? Yeah. I didn't care for it other than

the fact that it stars or guest starred Mr. Paul Schneider, who's one of my, one of my boys. So, uh, sometimes people accuse that show being preachy. What do you think? I just, I'm not a sorkin guy. So he's a little wordy for me. I liked West Wing. I didn't watch it. You never watched West Wing? Not one episode. Guarantee you, you would like it. You think? It was, he, he, I hate to say this, but it was like his, his masterpiece from beginning. I'm not kidding Chuck. I'm telling you, this is somebody who didn't like Studio 60, who doesn't like newsroom. West Wing from beginning to end was just really great. I'll try it, but I swear the way that guy writes, I'm always just like, nobody talks like that. I'm with you. I'm totally with you. But

this cast of characters, the characters that he wrote, the actors, they, they pulled it off. I've never seen it. I'll give it a shot. I do. Paul Schneider's not on it. I'm coming to your house this afternoon and we're going to watch some. Okay. Okay. So I guess that's the segue for no flies on us. Not a bad setup because this is political and presidential. I have something. Actually, I have a bit of an intro. Okay. Well, let's, let's hear it. You've heard of the Wright Brothers, Dayton's Pride, Orville and Wilbur Wright. Oh yeah. Conjoined twins. Yes. No, they weren't. I know. Okay. But they did fly. They did build the first airplane. Yes. That flew. And they flew it out at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina. And after they had that flight,

actually, I think before they undertook that flight, while they were still in the development stage, they went to the United States government and said, Hey, war department, you want in on this action? Not once, not twice, but thrice. Did the war department turn the Wright Brothers down? Say, what good are planes in warfare? Exactly. Luckily, there was a very smart person heading the post office department who said, Okay, maybe you shouldn't drop bricks out of airplanes on people's heads, but we could use this to deliver the mail. Martin Van Nostrand. Right. To heck with the auto gyro, we're going to start using this Wright Brothers plane to deliver mail. And for three years, the only aircraft that were in service

under the United States government was for delivering mail. And then a postal carrier and as a pilot accidentally dropped a mail bomb, right? And they went, Wow, that's a good idea. That works very well. Yeah, it didn't take very long for the war department to be like, Oh, okay, maybe we should use this. And by 1914, the aviation section of the signal court was set up. And all of a sudden, planes were militarized within just years of their invention. They were being used to murder people. Yeah. And this article points out in 1937, Spanish fascist dropped a bunch of bombs on the town of Guernica. A hundred thousand pounds of explosives killed 1600 people. And yeah, well, not only was it the explosives, people were running out of town and they were

gunning them down civilians. Yeah. So that's what fascists do as outrageous and horrible as that is. It was definitely the beginning of what would be a long romance in warfare with the plane. Yeah, you had the the red Baron Eddie Rickenbacker. Yeah. It's a very long, bloody history associated with planes and war. When the the fascists in Spain used planes to take out a lot of civilians, the world was, you know, appropriately disgusted. Sure, wasn't a whole lot that could be done. No. It actually wasn't until the very early 1990s that people figured out a way to use planes, to thwart planes from being used against civilian populations by their own government. Yeah, I thought no fly zones had been around long before that. So this was very eye-opening.

I had no idea that it was in the 1990s when they first did this. Right. No fly zones are new. They've only been used three times. Yeah, I didn't know that either. Like it just seems like there's just something that they just commonly do. Yeah. But it's kind of a big deal to issue a no fly zone. And the reason why is because what you're doing is intervening in a sovereign nation, undermining the power of the ruler of that nation. Choosing sides. In a way, you're saying at the very least, I'm not going to let you just slaughter these civilians. Right. I'm not going to cast my lot one way or the other really, but I'm going to protect these civilians. And it takes a United Nations mandate to even get started. That's right. So you want to talk about the first one?

Yes. Let's harken back to the spring of 1991. I'm in college. Okay. I'm drinking a lot of beer. That's where I first discovered beer. I was drinking a lot of beer too and I wasn't in college. Well, I'm just kidding. I was. We were drinking beer. So 1991, I remember sitting around and watching like this stuff on CNN for the first time, like being interested in politics really for the first time. Oh yeah? Yeah, that's kind of when I got into stuff like that. Well, that was the first war that was really televised. I mean, Vietnam was. Oh yeah. But this was the one that this is the first one that had like 24 hour coverage. Yeah. Was the was the first Gulf War and it was spectacular to watch. It was pretty enthralling, especially when you're, you know, 20 years old and you're

sitting around with your friends drinking beer. Yeah. Like, look at that skid. Safe in Athens, Georgia. Yeah. So what happened there was a guy named Saddam Hussein, he was not doing very nice things to the people in Kuwait. Well, well put. And the Kurdish minority in northern Iraq was encouraged by American radio broadcasts to revolt, like take a stand. And so they did. And Saddam Hussein sent gunships and with napalm and chemical weapons and helicopters. Because that's that's what you do. That's what he does. When you have a civilian population that's unhappy with your rule. Yeah. And so they fled basically hundreds of thousands of them. Kurdish civilians fled and sort of got wedged there at the Turkish border. Yeah,

because the Turks were like, yeah, we feel free, but stay there. Yeah. So don't cross over here. They didn't have food and water and HW Bush, President George HW Bush and allies in Europe said, you know what? Oh boy, I don't know what to do here because we kind of encourage these people to do this and now they're stuck in between a rock and a hard place. And but we really don't think we should invade and remove Saddam Hussein like with all of our might. Yeah, let's give that another 10, 12 years. Exactly. Or we could go to the UN in 91 and say, hey, how about passing a resolution against this guy? Right, which is what they did, which they did. They said, okay, we're going to deliver humanitarian aid to these Kurds who are trapped along the Turkish border.

Yeah. And Hussein, if you do anything to interfere, we're going to bomb you. We're going to take on your guys that you send to interfere at the very least, right? And not only that, we're establishing a safe zone for these people. It's above the 36th parallel. And if you send any planes over there, we're going to take them on. So this is what we're going to call a no fly zone. It was the first one. And Saddam Hussein went, no fly zone. I've never heard of such a thing. That's stupid. And the UN said, that's because this brand new jerk. Right. And he's like, Oh, I'm the first one. He went first. Firsties. So they did this. And then in 1992, a second no fly zone south of the 32nd parallel was established to protect the Shiite Muslims who also rose up under the encouragement of the United

States. If you're interested in this kind of thing, check out three kings. Great. It was a lot to do about that. It was after the uprisings had started. And also after the time the United States didn't support them. Remember the one scene where when the guy made Marky Mark drink the oil? Yeah. That was hardcore, man. I thought it was a little over the hamfisted of David O Russell. You think? Yeah. You don't like that guy. You got problems with him. No, I like three kings a lot. Okay. What else has he done that I've seen? So Reliance Playbook he didn't like. I thought it was okay. Yeah, see, you don't love him. But I like three kings a lot. I thought that was a good movie. Yeah, me too. So no fly zone is going on. Saddam Hussein violates said no fly zone. He's like,

yeah, well, what's going to happen? Let me send some jets up there. And we responded by or the coalition I should say responded by shooting down these aircraft or destroying just, you know, military targets on the ground. Because that's, as we found out, one of the parts of a no fly zone to be effective is to also bomb like radar equipment right on the ground that can get jets up in the air and guide them. Yeah, disable their force can also find your jets. So you want to disable their force, like you said, but you also want to protect your own force. The thing was, this is very new. The UN was a little squeamish at the idea of undermining again, a sovereign ruler, a jerk, everyone agreed, but still a sovereign ruler and kind of one of the stabilizing forces

of the Middle East, whether the US liked it or not. Yeah. So they just kind of said, yeah, protect these people, but just really, you got to take it all in a case by case basis. Can't be the least bit aggressive. You have to be completely reactive. Yeah. And even then, maybe we should just kind of chase them out of the no flies and rather than shoot them down. Over time, after sortie, after sortie, after sortie, they started just by attrition wearing down Hussein's defenses and his air force. Yeah. Just because he kept sending them in, we kept shooting them down until 2003 when we went in in full force and took out some Hussein. Right. The northern part and the southern part of Iraq was off limits to Saddam Hussein for 12

years, his own country. There was a wide swath in the middle that he could move around in, but anything else he wasn't allowed. Okay. So those are the, that's the first use of the no fly zone ever. Right. In the early 1990s, when Yugoslavia broke up, NATO forces said, all right, how about another no fly zone? We're going to authorize this one. It's 1993 over the breakaway region of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was called Operation Denied Flight. Which is terrible. Little on the nose. Yeah. We want to talk about on the nose. David Arosil named said mission and it was going to block Bosnian Serbs who controlled all the military aircraft in that region. Right. And who were using it against all of their neighbors

that they were going to war against specifically the Muslims. Serbian Muslims, right? Yeah. In a big way. Yeah. So the, I guess NATO undertook that no fly zone. Yeah, that was number two. Yeah. And that was a little more aggressive, I believe. They went after, they'd learned from, you know, guess about eight years of the Iraqi no fly zone, that you really kind of have to go after like military installations and anything that can be used to violate the no fly zone. And maybe even go a little step further as punishment. Like not only is, are we going to shoot down your plane, we're going to maybe blow up your base and pants you. Right. Right. So that was the second no fly zone. The third was even more aggressive. Yeah. Against Gaddafi

just a couple of years ago in 2011. That's right. And it lasted about six months, I believe. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was extremely effective. Yeah. Well, that's because they authorized quote all necessary measures to protect the Libyan civilians. And that was, you know, that meant a lot of bombs being dropped. Right. A lot of cruise missiles taking out bases on land. This one was named by Ang Lee. It was called Operation Odyssey Dawn. It was the result of UN Security Council Resolution 1973. Yeah. Which is confusing because it was carried out in 2011. That's right. But basically, it said, you guys, we think Gaddafi is totally not so. And he's going to kill a lot of his own people, go in there and declare all of Libya a no fly zone. And NATO said, okay, let's do it.

Right. So US and British led NATO coalition kind of took the reins. That's right. And turned this 680,000 square mile country, which is about 1.7 million square kilometers into a no fly zone. All of Libya was a no fly zone. The war on drugs impacts everyone, whether or not you take drugs. America's public enemy number one is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute 2200 pounds of marijuana. Yeah. And they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs. Of course, yes, they can do that. And I'm the prime example. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff. Stuff that'll piss you off.

The property is guilty. Exactly. And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. The cops, are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call like what we would call a jack move or being robbed. They call civil acid. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the co classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack

and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it. And now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews, co stars, friends, and nonstop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting frosted tips? Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL instant messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s. Listen to,

Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. So since this is a new thing, there is no, as this article says, playbook. There's not like an exact way that these go into effect. It sort of depends on what you're dealing with, what countries you're dealing with. But the first thing that you have to do, according to chapter seven, article 42 of the UN Charter, is get the 15 member UN Security Council on board. Right, which sounds easy, but it's not necessarily because you have five permanent members, the UK, France, the US, China and Russia. And China and Russia love to veto anything that the US, the UK and France are all about, which is good. It's called a balance of power. But specifically with

Libya, France or Russia and China, they were against it. But they were persuaded to abstain from the vote because all it takes is one permanent member nation on the Security Council of veto and it's done. Yeah, I wonder what that persuasion entailed. I don't know. You know. Looking the other way on human rights violations, maybe? I have no idea, but I'm sure it wasn't just as easy as, hey, you mind sitting this one out? Sure, no problem. Right. I'm drunk anyway. So the UN resolution for the Libyan no fly zone, it's a pretty good example of how this kind of thing can work. So no flights in Libyan airspace, bands all flying unless it's a humanitarian mission, carrying food or water or getting out foreign nationals who are in bad places.

Yeah. You're allowed to do that. Other than that, no fly. No fly. And it's not, you don't just shoot down any plane on site. No. When you're patrolling the no fly zone, if a plane is flying in Libyan airspace, you want to first figure out if it was there accidentally or if it's hostile. And if it's hostile, you go back to the ground and say, hey, man, can I shoot this thing down? Yeah. Well, first you got to figure out who's doing the shooting. You know, you got to set it all up. Oh, well, yeah. Who's going to be enforcing all this? I was just jumping ahead of it. Okay. Yeah, you got to figure out who's in charge of the operation, basically. In the case of Libya, it was NATO. And then you establish the rules of

engagement, which is partially has to do with, hey, do we shoot first and ask questions later? Right. Do we check passports? How's this going to work? Right. And like you said in Libya, it was pretty aggressive. The first thing that happened on day one was the US and I believe the UK sailed warships off the coast of Libya and started shooting missiles into Libya's interior, knocking out military installations, radar installations, as much of the Libyan military is, or at least Air Force, as could be destroyed. 112 Tomahawk cruise missiles. Boom. Yeah. Each one precisely shot. That's right. And I love the article says the goal is to shape the battle space in quotes. Yeah, that's a euphemism. Yeah, big time. So after this, they send in the drone

surveillance aircraft to check things out, see what's going on. And did you get the impression that US is kind of showing off a little bit like, well, we've got some missiles we can use. And then after we'll send in our unmanned drones and make sure everything's bombed. And then after that, we're going to send in radar jamming equipment just in case you have anything left on the ground. Right. We'll take care of that too. Yeah. That was the first like two days. Yeah. And Gaddafi's, his Air Force was, you know, they called them vintage jets in this article. And that's, in that case, vintage is not a good thing. Right. You know, it's from the 1960s. It's old gear, basically. It's vintage, not retro. That's right. So it's still it was effective. It

worked even beyond the fact that the jets were vintage and we crippled the is his radar system, his Air Force military installations. There was still a lot of shoulder launched rockets. Yeah. In Libya, an estimated 600 to 1500, I believe that like during this time Gaddafi was handing out to people who were on his side. Yeah. And Saddam Hussein famously offered a bounty on any aircraft shot down of like 14 grand, which I thought why not 15, you know. Yeah, that was a weird number. I wonder if that if that makes like a significant round number in Iraqi money. Maybe so. You know. It's a lot of Denari. Yes. Thank you. You shouldn't invest in those, by the way. That's a big scam. Invest in Denari? Yeah. Have you heard of people doing that? No. It's a thing where people buy up

Iraqi Denari and thinking, you know, like they're going to hit a big one day. You shouldn't do that. Why? Well, it's just you do a lot of research and it's it's sort of one of the scams. Is it? Yeah. So like if you bought Denari from a legitimate currency broker, it's still not a good investment. No. I know someone who did it. Oh, no. Yeah. Is it possible it's going to come back in 10 years? I doubt it. Are they going to go Euro? I don't know. Huh. But yeah, that's just a sidebar. Okay. That was a nice one. Save your money, folks. So we were talking about the possibility that a NATO jet or any jet patrolling in no-fly zone could get shot down by some dude on the ground. Yeah. It hasn't happened. No, but it could. That had to be one lucky shot. It raises one of the

concerns. Actually, it has happened. It hasn't happened from somebody on the ground. Yeah. But it raises a concern, a risk that we're sending in people, again, into a sovereign nation. Sure. That maybe he has to deal with his own problems. Yeah. And we're putting our people in danger for that. Most people, I think, myself included, sighed on the idea of going in and protecting civilians from certain slaughter. Sure. But I do agree that there is a risk as well. And Scott McGrady, you remember him? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Owen Wilson. Yeah. During the Balkan War, during that no-fly zone, he was shot down, I guess, by a Serbian plane. It was a surface-to-air missile, but I don't know. Oh, okay. So somebody has shot down somebody from the ground. Well,

I don't know if it was a person. Okay. Well, he was shot down patrolling in no-fly zone. Yeah. And he was in very big trouble for a little while. Had he not been quite the survivalist, who knows what would have happened because the Serbs were hot on his trail. Yeah. And he spent six days evading them. Yeah, he did a really good job and emerged a hero. Yeah, he ate ants and lived on collected rainwater and avoided the bad guys. Yeah. And eventually got through a radio signal and... To Gene Hackman. Picked up. Yeah, Gene Hackman was like, we're going to get you out of there. Yeah. Uncommon valor. Man, that was a good reference. No, Gene Hackman was in the Owen Wilson movie, too. Oh, was he really? I'm pretty sure he was the one

that was in charge of saving him. Oh, man. Well, he's always going in and saving. Sure. In Uncommon Valor, it was his son. He was a Vietnam POW, right? Yeah. Randall Texkov. Yeah, what was his name in it? I don't remember. That movie came out at a great time for me, though. It was the perfect age. He wore like a live grenade around his neck, remember? Yeah. That's the second time we talked about Uncommon Valor in like two months. When was the other one? I remember. I don't remember. I do remember talking about it. Probably what happens if the earth stops spinning. Yeah, probably so. So you got anything else? I guess we had the opportunity to really invade Libya. And President

Obama said, you know what? Let's not do that. Let's not do the regime change game. Well, a lot of people are like, we shouldn't be there in the first place. Right. A lot of other people are like, this is a half measure. If you're going to go do that and just wipe out somebody's military, you might as well do a ground invasion and take over and topple the regime. Like you said, Obama was like, no, let's give it a shot. And he was proven right in Libya, at least. Yeah, because even if you take out their air defenses and their air offenses, I guess, they still have way better weaponry and stuff on the ground than these uprising forces do. Right. And it worked in Libya. It didn't necessarily work in the Balkans. A lot of people point to the slaughter at

Srebrenica. Srebrenica. Oh, yeah. Yeah, 7000 Muslim boys and men were killed by the Bosnians. It's genocide. Yeah, who are being tried for war crimes because of it. But the no-fly zone didn't do anything to prevent it. That's right. So, I mean, is it effective? It can be. I'd say that we don't have a large enough body of work to study from here. We need to get some more going. Get some more no-fly zones. Yeah. I remember how creepy it was after 9-11 when all the planes were shut down. Remember that? Oh, yeah. It was just so odd. Yeah, it was. You don't realize how used to the sounds and the chemtrails and chemtrails. We did an episode on that. On comtrails. Chemtrails. We did our comtrails, chemtrails. Yeah. You know what I mean. Okay. I guess

that's about it, right? Yeah. If you want to learn more about no-fly zones, you can type no-fly zone into the search bar at howstuffworks.com. And before we get the list in our mail, let's do a word from our sponsor. The war on drugs impacts everyone, whether or not you take drugs. America's public enemy number one is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute 2200 pounds of marijuana. Yeah, and they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs, of course, yes, they can do that. And I'm the prime example of that. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff.

Stuff that'll piss you off. The property is guilty. Exactly. And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. The cops, are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call like what we would call a jackmove or being robbed. They call civil acid for it. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cold classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and

dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it. And now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews, co-stars, friends, and non-stop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting frosted tips? Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL instant messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s. Listen to Hey Dude,

the 90s, called on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Listen to mail time? Yeah. Okay, Josh, I'm going to call this Pushy Kid Gets His Way, which I try not to do. Everybody loves it when pushy kids get there. This is a shout out for a teacher. This is Jack. And Jack and I had been emailing each other and he says, by the way, I think I told you in the past about my civics teacher that listens to the show. This week, we have a special project in this class is to make a podcast about one of these Supreme Court cases we've been studying. For some hints, we listened to tidbits of your show

and my teacher and I just grin from ear to ear at each other like a really funny inside joke, because they're like the only two in the class that listen. Gotcha. I plan for my pseudonym to be either Chuck or even Chuckers, if you allow. I give you permission, sir. He says he sees himself as a younger version of me, which is frightening. That's nice. Although the actual content of the show is more like this American life because we are required to have Collins. Do they? I don't know. I don't think so either. I will always think to myself that I'm sitting there in your little studio. If you can give my spectacular teacher Mr. Kristoff a shout out that would be

mind-boggling, stupendously incredible, but I understand if you can't. Mr. Kristoff? Yep. Mr. Kristoff is a civics teacher and I said, sure, Jack, I'll do that. And then he emailed again from Washington DC and said, I hate to seem demanding, Chuck, but if you could also mention Mrs. Kristoff, because I have her for math and I don't want to make her feel left out. So if it's too late, I get it. I can't complain. This might be the best day of my life after all. Have a nice one weekend. And that is Jack outside of Washington DC and Mr.

and Mrs. Kristoff. Good job listening to the show and we thank you for using it in your classroom. Yes. Thank you to the Kristoff's, Mr. and Mrs. Kristoff's. Thank you for shaping your minds. Yeah. Shout out. And way to go, Jack. You're a cool dude. If you have a shout out you want us to give, Chuck gives in on those pretty frequently. Sometimes you can tweet to us at syskpodcast. You can join us on facebook.com slash stuff you should know. Send us an email to stuffpodcast.discurry.com and go to our website stuffyoushouldknow.com For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com what they call like what we would call a jack move or being robbed. They call civil asset work.

Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. One in four Americans have reported being victims of crime. But what happens when we survive? That's what we explore in the podcast survivors heal. I invite you all to listen in as we discuss the healing side of true crime and what I call the new survivors movement. It's a movement that centers healing and speaks truth to power. Listen to survivors heal available on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.