Stuff You Should Know - How Quantum Suicide Works
Episode Date: August 3, 2010In this episode, Josh and Chuck tackle a mind-melting topic: quantum physics! They ponder subatomic particles and various quantum theories, focusing specifically on a thought experiment called quantum... suicide. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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It's ready. Are you?
Welcome to stuff you should know from how stuff works calm
Hey and welcome to the podcast I'm Josh Clark with me as always is Charles W. Chuckers Bryant son of Mrs.
Bryant. Yeah. Yeah, she kept the name. Good for her. I
Like your mom. Yeah, you met my mom. Yeah, I met your mom at the love your mama opening appropriately enough. That's right
Yeah, I thought you said your name was Josh Clark for a second there
If that was off the cuff, I'll accept that I did I just made that up. That was great
It is not written down anywhere. That is great
Chuck said that because we're going to be talking about quantum physics today and quarks are
It's my understanding Chuck that they're the the fundamental basis of matter
Yeah, they make up Hadron's which you may you may know that because we talked about the large Hadron collider
Yeah, up until about like 30 seconds ago. I didn't know why it was called the large Hadron. Yeah
Well, there's six quarks Josh. They are known as flavors, which is kind of cool. It is cool
up down charm strange top and bottom and apparently
charm strange top and bottom you can only
Be produced with like a big collision like the Hadron collider. Okay, like a large Hadron collider
Yeah, yeah, and there's also anti-quark, too, which is like the opposite
Yeah, those are the quarks that smoke cigarettes and wear leather jackets. Exactly. Um Chuck quarks exist on their particles
They're matter, right? They're the building blocks of matter. That's what I understand
So they exist on the subatomic level smaller than atoms or below atom depending on you know
How do you like the words sub? Yes
um and
They exist in this weird world the quantum world
Mm-hmm. They bump elbows against photons, which are my favorite subatomic. I
guess particles, okay
and
Plenty of other weird strange. It's like this odd parade of
Physical things right? I don't like it there. I
Can understand why you don't because it's a very disconcerting in an uncomfortable world the the very comforting
Ideals and principles of Newtonian physics. Yeah, which are what goes up must come down reality the sun's going to rise tomorrow
Depending on whether or not you're a Robert Hume
Adherent sure David Hume adherent
Just these things that we can depend on we've come to depend on since Isaac Newton, you know, you know
His breakthroughs sure I learned a lot about myself reading this actually did you learn that you get angry easily now
It's just like it the whole notion of like stepping outside reality
Disturbed me yes, and what's even more disturbing is that?
This this
Universe is envisioned by some very very smart people. Yeah, or I should say what I perceive as reality by the way
I just want to clear that up nice, okay
So Chuck we've done one on the Large Hadron Collider, right?
Yep, and this is hated. I want to this is just like this this huge fancy multi-billion dollar machine
That's new that's still going. Yeah, right
Um back in the 90s. They didn't have these Large Hadron colliders to like you know rely on to actually see and measure and detect
Right things on the quantum world. They had to use their imaginations physicists did no, and
Specifically in 1997 there was a physicist who used his imagination for what's called a thought experiment
Where you do like that idea. Yeah, this guy's name is Max Tegmark
And he is awesome. He's he was at Princeton at the time now
I think is that MIT smart guy and he came up with a thought experiment called quantum suicide
Mm-hmm, and will you allow me to explain it as follows? Please do okay?
so you are a guy and you're sitting in a room and
There's a gun pointed at you at your head. I don't like where this is a kill shot. Yeah, you're looking at the barrel, right?
Uh-huh and the guns a little off. I mean it's a normal gun, but it's hooked up to this new fangled machine, right?
And this machine is set so that it measures a cork it measures the spin of a cork, right?
Right, so let's just say for simplicity's sake although you've already said this isn't true
Let's just say that a cork can only spin clockwise or counterclockwise. Okay, okay?
Um, this this machine is set so that every time the person sitting in front of the gun presses a button
The cork is measured. Mm-hmm if the cork is measured with a clockwise spin the gun's not going to go off
There'll just be a click. Okay, right?
If when the guy presses the button the cork is measured and it comes up with a counterclockwise spin
Mm-hmm the gun's gonna go off the trigger will be pulled. Yes, the bullet will exit the chamber
It will travel a several feet across the room into the head of the man sitting in front of the gun and he will die
Guaranteed death like it's a kill shot. Okay
What's weird is that in this quantum suicide thought experiment?
Max Tagmark figured out that if this guy
pressed the button
Every single time
He's going to hear a click click click click click click no matter how many times he presses it
No matter how long he tries this right all he'll be aware of is this clicking of the gun because he lives
Yes, he lives in every single scenario right how can that possibly be?
Let's go back to the beginning that first time the guy pressed the button. Okay. Yes
what happened in
Another parallel universe is the gun went off and he died, right?
Okay, so with that first experiment the the universe split into two yep one where the gun went off
And he died one where he just heard a click right now if we follow the one where he heard the click
That's how he knows I'm he presses that button and the cork is measured right the universe splits into two
But he's only aware of the one where he just hears a click because that's his reality when where he's alive
And if he died he clearly wouldn't understand that because he'd be dead. Yes
So part one of mind melt starts just started. I think that that's the quantum suicide thought experiment. Yeah, I like it
Yeah, it was pretty mind-boggling. Absolutely. Um, and it's used to
Well, it's pretty exemplary of the kind of goofy like you said mind-melting
Ideas that are brought up on to explain quantum physics, right? Yeah, what you have to do
You have to use thought experiments because you can't use their it's unpredictable at that level
So you can't use like a regular scientific method, right? And one of the reasons why it's unpredictable is because
When you look at say a cork if a cork only had a spin of clockwise or counterclockwise
Science quantum physicists have found that when you observe a cork. Yeah
One time you'll observe it and it's spinning clockwise the next time you'll observe it's spinning counterclockwise
Yeah, or even more unsettlingly they found that photons these smallest packets of light
You can look at a single photon at one point or measure it and it's a particle
You can measure it the next time the same photon and it's a wave
So this is kind of like
Somebody running walking and swimming at the same time in different directions, right crazy
This is this so that like you said it's it's it's uncomfortable that what they're finding on the quantum level
So what you got Josh is is a chaotic situation and that's sort of how it exists now
But as you pointed out you wrote this I should point out and this is a performer
This one has done really well, right? Yeah, you should tell yourself
But sometimes scientists think that the more we learn that some order will fall into place on the quantum level at some point
Well, hopefully yeah, hopefully here else either me theory after theory either that or else
Yeah, it's like the the laws of physics don't the laws of Newtonian physics just don't apply on a certain level right down
This they just apply on you know the specified level sure
one of the one of the fundamental tenets that that has long been debated is
The idea of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, right? Yeah, so
One of the one of the things like early on in quantum physics in like the 20s
There are a lot of guys who are trying to explain why these weird things were showing up, right?
Or inconsistent at least right. Yeah, and one of the the
One of the early guys one of the early physicists was Werner Heisenberg. Yeah, Mexican
Yeah
Werner Heisenberg and he came up with this explanation or this I guess he pointed out like a major flaw with quantum mechanics is that
When we observe something just the act of observing something we
Influence its behavior, right? Yeah, this is where I started to get a little hinky with this
I understand it in concept like even like shining a light on something that small will cause it to change
But it gets a little more like
Philosophical than that
Well, yeah, like simply looking at something will affect the outcome. That's a really great point Chuck
There's the quantum
Physics has a lot of philosophy and logic. Oh, yeah, we tied into math. Mm-hmm
It's not just straight-up math. Yeah, there's philosophy to it
Sort of appeals to me on that level, but it's it doesn't make it easier to understand for me
Well, this is how Heisenberg's uncertainty principle was explained to me once
if you let's say you're blind and
You have this ball a heavy ball that that has a lot of balance to it
That you've learned to basically see with you know a bat uses sonar
Yeah, to bounce back the wave to find out how far they are from something sure right
Let's say you you've learned to kind of do the same thing but with the ball, right?
Okay, and you know that there's a chair across the room and you want to figure out roughly how far away the chair is
So you throw your ball at the chair and you manage to hit it and the ball takes a
Second and a half to come back to you sure and after you know being pretty good at this by now
You know that the chair is about 30 feet away
That's how long it takes for something right for the ball to get back to you in a second and a half with about as
Hard as you threw it right
What you've just figured out is the position of the chair or where the chair was when you threw the ball at it
Right what the problem is is you've just influenced the behavior of the chair
You just threw a ball against it so you send it careening off into space and now you have no idea where it is
Yeah, I get that I get the ball moving the chair what I don't get is looking at something
Well on on this level consider this okay with photons remember the smallest packet of light my favorite yeah quantum
particle sure
There is a nano machine, which is it's a motor right and it's operated by shooting light at it
So this these packets of light that have no mass and no charge right
What this the the particles we're talking about are so small that a
Photon a little packet of light can actually influence them
So we use light to see say right let's say just and this is this is a very basic elementary
Explanation, but we use light to see if we have the light on there's photons just bombarding something right, right?
So a photo if a photon can hit a particle
We know where its position was when we turn the light on
But we don't know where it is now because the photon just sent it careening elsewhere
Right which tells back a little bit into the philosophical like you walk into a dark room
You don't know where the chair is until you turn the light off, but did the light move the chair, right?
That's that's that's exactly right, right?
That's that's what smart people have to say about quantum
Wonder I don't get it
Okay, I got it, but you do get it because you just know I get it perfectly. I get I was just kidding right okay?
All right, so that's Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and that's been something that's kind of
Provided a conundrum for quantum physicists and not everybody's bought into that right well
And that's why they had to dream up the thought experiment to begin with right okay, so
if just observing a
Particle means we affect its behavior
Well, then maybe we should use thought experiments, especially pre large Hadron collider right physicists
This is their their thought process right so this is why tag mark came up with the quantum suicide thought experiment
But he didn't he came up with the thought experiment to prove
Another quantum theory called the many-worlds interpretation
Yeah, Hugh Everett fellow Princetonian in
1957 I know he was stoked like cuz 40 years people were kind of like eh
I don't know about this many-worlds thing. Yeah, until your guy came along. Yeah, call me your guy
Well, I've actually chatted with me's a good guy. Oh, that's right. Yeah, didn't you and I provided a picture. It was like 40 years
Right yeah in 1957 and 97 exactly 40 years then and it supports quantum suicide the many-worlds theory is
for each
Outcome each each each possible outcome to an action the world copies itself
It splits into a copy of itself right and it's simultaneous and we have absolutely no power over it whatsoever
Yeah, it's a process called decohesion, right?
So Chuck this this universe that we're in right now is going along smoothly because there's no
Choice or option right right?
But let's say
I'm deciding whether or not to take a sip of this coffee or not. Uh-huh just making that decision. I didn't just now
but the there was
Decohesion when I made that decision not to right because in another
Universe another parallel universe now exists where I did take a sip of that coffee
Well, yeah, and the key here is that you don't know that this other universe has been created
No, right no and you want to you want to imagine that you can look over to your right somewhere
Right and you see yourself to drinking the coffee, right, but you can't we're not we're not cognizant of that universe
It's it's branched off. They're no longer
cohesive right right and that supports the quantum suicide thought experiment like perfectly well, that's that is what
that's that's
What you ever it came up with to explain why a particle a photon could be both a wave and a particle, right?
right
The unsettling part of this is with Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. We're in charge
We look at a quantum particle, right? We affect it, right?
All right, that was with who's Heisenberg Heisenberg. Yeah, sure in principle with
With the many worlds interpretation. We're just observers, right? Yeah parallel universes happening all over the place
So let's say that you you let's say I was the guy who decided I wanted to find out if there was such a thing as quantum
Immortality that I could just sit there with the gun and actually carry out this thought experiment and and see right?
Yeah, and consider this. It's entirely possible that if somebody did do this
They could live forever and only they would know
Right, you know why because as an observer under the many worlds interpretation
You're just so long for the ride right sort of have to accept that don't you if you support this theory
Well, yeah, yeah, that's the basis of it
So let's say that I was the guy who sat down in front of this gun and started pressing the button, right?
Yes, and you're sitting there watching me, you know, maybe drinking a root beer
Waiting for that fire. Yeah
Eventually it would happen because you're not doing anything. You're not making a decision
I'm making the decision. You're an observer a bystander to my decision of pressing a button, right?
Isn't that where predictability comes in probability probability? So eventually
Just based on the chances of a coin toss shirts eventually you're going to be witness to that
That quark being measured running counterclockwise and the gun going off and me dying
I don't want to see and after that the universe can't possibly split anymore because you're not making the decision
I'm making the decision right to press the button while I'm dead
I can't make the decision to press the button anymore. So then the the universe has stopped splitting for you, right?
So that's that's pretty unsettling because we have no control whatsoever over anything. Oh, yeah, I mean it if I
I would chalk it up to free will whether or not I'm I'm taking a sip of that coffee
Uh-huh, but free will doesn't exist if the universe is splitting into two to accommodate every possible outcome
And just imagine it splitting into more than two. What if there's more than one outcome for a decision?
Like many worlds, okay, right?
So you this is the many worlds interpretation and that's how quantum suicide basically proves it by the by
Saying if somebody sat down and did this
They would become immortal. It shows that the the many worlds interpretation is theoretically possible
Which is what it seeks to do, right? Right and that's sort of the new kid on the block, right when it comes to explaining this. Yes
Not like the is it Copenhagen?
Interpretation yeah, yeah, well, let's let's take it. Let's take it Chuck
Well, that's the one that's been
Accepted and still is in a lot of circles, but the one that had been accepted for like the last century basically
Yeah, and you pointed out too that this whole thing is really only about a century old or so
Yeah, I believe it was Max Planck in 1900 which is new basically founded the field of quantum physics
Yeah, which is very new on it, you know, but yeah on that scale Newton came up with his stuff in the 18th century
So if this is the I guess the newest field of physics, right? So the Copenhagen interpretation Josh is
Niels Bohr in the 1920s or actually in 1920 right and it says that a quantum particle doesn't exist in one or another
But it exists in all states all at the same time
Right in the state of existing in all possible states at once is called a coherent superposition or just superposition, right?
Right and the total of all those is the wave function, right?
So remember I said this is like this is like a running walking and swimming all at the same time, right?
So the state of running walking and swimming all at the same time is called a superposition and then being able to run
Walk and swim as possible states. That's the wave function. That makes you an iron man
It does but it makes you like the optimal iron man. That's right. You just finished the race immediately
Yeah, everyone else is finished with the running part and you're like dripping wet with your bike on your shoulder, right? Nice. Yeah
so Bohr
He
He proved this this whole Schrodinger's cat thing. This is this is a little funny and Schrodinger supposedly
Designed this to sort of show how silly it was, right?
He did he did but at the same time he was also
I mean he was a serious quantum physicist and he was a huge rival of
Heisenberg actually and Heisenberg said Schrodinger's ideas were crap. Oh really? Yeah, is that the word he used? Yes
and and I think I can't remember what Schrodinger had to say about Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, but
They didn't like each other. All right, so Schrodinger's box. Can we kind of describe this?
Yeah, and and if you didn't get this this is to the Copenhagen
Interpretation what quantum suicide is to the many worlds interpretation. It's a thought experiment designed to theoretically prove that it's possible
Okay, people are like, can't you just talk about ticks being on your nether regions?
So much easier. All right Schrodinger's cat and this is I should point out. This is a theoretical experiment. He didn't really do this
Right, but he could well. He sure he could have so what he did was he got a box that you can't see into
Which is very key is you'll find out he put a cat in there
theoretically he put some radioactive material in there and then he put a Geiger counter in there and like a little device that would
You know if the radioactive material leaks out it would smash this poison in there
And it would kill the cat right if the Geiger counter sensed radioactive decay, right?
It would trigger this hammer that smashes the poison bile killing the right
But that's just a clever way of setting this up. It's really not important what he did. I like being clever
Well, no, it was very good. Thank you for the point is he did it within like an hour or so
So where it's still possible like the cat didn't starve to death
Right, the cat could either be alive or the cat could be dead. You don't know because the cat is sealed inside this box
so in theory
The cat is both alive and dead right and the other part about that hour is that he determines say like over an hour
There was a 50-50 chance right that the radioactive material would decay or wouldn't decay
So the Geiger counter had a 50-50 chance of detecting it and this is where I have a big problem with all this stuff
Yeah, well, it's like you pointed out in the article too and that's what made me think of it the tree falling in the woods
Would you really hear it? Mm-hmm? I have hated that since I was a little kid. I think it has to do with how your brain is wired
Yeah, because
whether or not the cat is a the cat is alive or dead just because you don't know the answer
Doesn't mean it's both. Well, that's to me as an English major music musician type
You know in this though. So the cats the cat being alive
Yeah, or the cat being dead, right? That's its wave function. Those are the possible outcomes, right and
Since the box is sealed off like he says it's very important. You can't see in it. Mm-hmm
You can't detect anything in it, right?
The cat is the cats in in a superposition of both life and death. Oh, yeah
The point is is we what what Schrodinger was saying in this and how it how it
Supports the Copenhagen interpretation and is actually more like
The the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle than Schrodinger would have liked to admit, right?
We the observer forced the outcome. Okay by observing it
We open up the box and the cats either alive
We and we see that the cats alive, right?
Or we open up the box and the cat's dead and we see the cat's dead the point of Nils Bohr's
Copenhagen interpretation is so these things exist in their superposition, right?
And when we observe them we force them into basically a choice
We collapse right their wave function or we collapse their superposition and now they're a live cat
Mm-hmm, or it's a dead cat
but it's because of we observed and until we observe there in this state of all states at once
It's that's just where I and like I said it has it's got to have something to do with your brain because my brother was a big
Math guy, right and he used to tutor me some and he could never understand
How I didn't get math just like I don't understand how they get physics on that level
But I don't understand how someone can't sing on key
Because to me you hear the note and you just replicate it. You know what I understand what what a brain cramp feels like
right now, yeah, oh
um, so Chuck the
again
The great thing the comforting thing the thing that allows me to sleep at night about Bohr's
aside from value
that and Scott's sure
The part about Bohr's theory that is comforting is that again?
It's up to us right things don't we we can't look at a cat and see it in a state of life and death at
Simultaneously, right? We force things to happen and at the very least things make sense to us in that in that way. Yeah, yeah, right?
With the many worlds again, we have nothing to do with it. It happens on its own
Decohesion happens silent like instantaneously
Whenever there's a decision made by a conscious being and even worse so times not linear, right?
It exists in like these jumps and starts and branches right and so for every decision ever made by any conscious entity
That includes rabbits Chuck
Right, yeah
That there's the universe is split into every possible outcome. It's like lost. Oh
It is and it's the basis of not just lost but like a lot of other there've been a lot of other
Works, what was that one third contact you sent me it looked like a student film or something like that
Yeah, there's some pretty cool short films. Oh, yeah, there's a beat just because it's so mind-boggling
And the great thing is is that quantum physicists seem to have like a little bit of a sense of humor
Or at the very least they're well aware that what they're saying is just completely nuts, right? They're like hey
Don't kill the messenger. We're just trying to figure out what the hell is going on here, right?
Schrodinger called his cat experiment quite ridiculous. Yeah, and Nils Bohr had a great great quote didn't he Chuck?
Yes, Josh. He said that anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it, right?
That says it all all right
It does say it all in and I think also what it did was it bought quantum physicists some time, right?
Yeah, it's like you go figure this out
Well, we really go figure this out. Well, I like coming explain it to you
You got a little clever there on the last page, which I appreciated when you said that you know
There are all these different theories and when you're talking about quantum physics and a lot of them contradict each other and maybe
If you believe in this kind of quantum stuff
Maybe they're all right
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, maybe the ones that contradict each other
They're both right depending on what universe you're in so you depends if you're in many worlds interpretation
Davo Taven. Yeah, that would be that would be so quantum. Yes super quantum. That's so Raven
We should be wearing trawling outfits right now. I saw that trailer the other day man before inception
Oh, yeah, it looks really good. Yeah, although I gotta say I liked inception, but I
It could have been better. I enjoyed it. I did too Christopher Nolan can
Direct and write the crud out of a movie. Yeah, but how much of it though is that no one else is making anything even remotely watchable?
Yeah
You're right. Wow. He came along in a good time. Didn't he? Yeah, he did
So that's quantum
Suicide in a back. I can't wait to see the listener mail on this man
Yeah, physics guys right in yes, it's and I don't I'm not making fun of them
I mean, it's really enlightening. They take it really seriously. Oh, sure. It's awesome
Yeah, and don't forget Chuck. We met somebody in New York at the knitting factory
I believe who was a quantum physicist who explained to us
Like how we screwed up the large hadron collider. Yeah, so if you're out there, I can't remember your name
Remind us. Was that the Hadron the collider? Yeah, dude. You know, huh? No, those are those are their comedy troupe
Much different. Hadron the collider. They have a podcast check it out. Um, I guess now what it's time for listener mail
Do you have something I do? All right, it's time for listener mail
Josh I'm gonna call this cool Kiva
Wedding, okay, can I throw something in first please? There's something we've overlooked too many episodes have gone by in my opinion
But we need it. We need to put this out there
Remember Sean from Virginia Beach the cubicle guy. Yeah. Yeah, who just was like I've listened to everything and there's no
There was no origin of hippie Rob, right? Well, we put the call out for everybody to let us know where hippie Rob first appeared in
What capacity and we got a great response. Oh, yeah, first one to write in was Emmy Emmy
Thanks for writing in Emmy, but thanks for everybody for writing in if you go back and listen to how squatting works
Listen to approximately the 250 mark two-minute fifty-second mark
You will find the origin of hippie Rob. Yeah, and if you want to show up
He also shows up in about the same place in the earthquake podcast too and elsewhere
But those are the two largest chunks of the hippie Rob saga. He's peppered throughout
Isn't it funny that this dude is just out there existing somewhere and has no idea
Yeah, it's like another parallel universe exactly
Wow, you're welcome Josh
This is from Jana in Minnesota, and she says Josh and Chuck. I'm a huge fan of the show
I wanted to share a story with you. My husband and I recently got married
June 19th, 2010 so Mazel toft of that
Yeah, you know with the reception when people ding the glass to make newlyweds kiss
Mm-hmm. I'm not sure if it's a tradition in Georgia or not and sort of is I think it is we didn't do that
Yeah, we had paper cups. No one heard it. Did you really? No. Oh, okay
Uh, we did have a budget wedding, but we didn't have paper cups plastic. We had PBR on a bottle
That's very classy. Thank you
Uh, everyone else starts to also ding their glass and then you have to stop eating and kiss
My husband and I didn't like that idea. I don't either
Uh, something about the annoying clanging sound didn't sound like fun
Plus it's really demanding
Yeah, you can't make me kiss. That's what I would have said. I would get all obstinate in my own wedding
Uh, so we decided that people had to put money in a jar to make us kiss. Great idea
All the money placed in our jar would be donated to
Kiva
Fantastic through the stuff you should know the microlending team the microlending site, you know, we've also socially responsible microlending
Yeah, we should also spell that because we get called out because it's such a weird word. It is kiva.org
Yeah, and then slash team
Slash stuff you should know. Yeah, if you want to donate for our team
So, uh, she said it wasn't the biggest fundraiser of all time or anything
They made about 50 bucks and kisses and they were happy to donate
So that's two loans right there and I just thought it was cool that we've been included now in someone's wedding day
And wedding night. You remember that other one?
I guess I'm waiting on us to cause a divorce
That would bring this full circle. Yeah, I know we helped
Somebody threw a divorce didn't we? Did we get an email from somebody who was getting divorced?
I don't know maybe I think we have and thank you. Who was that?
That was uh, jenna from minnesota. Thanks jenna and husband. Uh, congratulations on your wedding
Uh, and if chuck and I have hastened the end of your wedding or have been present at the birth of your kid or whatever
Any major life event we want to hear about it?
Uh, send us an email to stuffpodcast at howstuffworks.com
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