Stuff You Should Know - How the Underground Railroad Worked

Episode Date: June 7, 2011

As early as 1786, groups assembled to help slaves escape lives of bondage. And, as the 19th century progressed, the emergent Underground Railroad grew more sophisticated in aiding escaped slaves. But how did it work? Join Josh and Chuck to learn more. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Flooring contractors agree. When looking for the best to care for hardwood floors, use Bona Hardwood Floor Cleaner, the residue-free, fast-drying solution especially designed for hardwood floors, delivering the safe and effective clean you trust. Bona Hardwood Floor Cleaner is available at most retailers where floor cleaning products are sold and on Amazon. Also available for your other hard surface floors like stone, tile, laminate, vinyl, and LVT. For cleaning tips and exclusive offers, visit Bona.com slash Bona Clean. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff, stuff that'll piss you off. The cops, are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging?

They just have way better names for what they call, like what we would call a jackmove or being robbed. They call civil acid. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by the reinvented 2012 Camry. It's ready, are you? Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and with me as always is Charles W. Chuck Bryant, which makes this Stuff You Should Know, the podcast, because Chuck and I are the hosts of that.

Hostesses? No, hosts. Chuck? Yes. How are you? I'm great, man. How are you? I'm fine. It's you and I and Matt, our guest producer. Yeah, Mattie. And alone in this entire building. Yeah, it's the Friday before Memorial Day, Friday afternoon even, and it's pretty empty in here. Yes, it is. There's lots of echoes that we're going to have to adjust for and post. Right. Yeah. Do we do post anymore, or is this like basically this live to tape? This live to tape. At least we're not getting hateful stares as we walk through the office. Yeah, it's refreshing. So, Chuck, as you know, I grew up in Ohio. I was hoping you'd mention this. Well, I grew up in Ohio. Your hopes are fulfilled.

Well, another reason why? Well, it turns out I recently learned from this article on how the Underground Railroad worked. We talked about how this is going to be problematic, like that an estimated half of all Underground Railroad workers were from Ohio or lived in Ohio or part of Ohio. I had no idea. How about that? But reading that, it makes sense because that was such a part of my upbringing as a child. Everybody's house that was built in like the 19th or 18th century had like an, oh, this is where they kept the freed slaves in the Underground Railroad. Everybody's house had like a little spot that supposedly was part of the Underground Railroad. They claimed just to have that heritage or real? Some were more believable than others,

but normally it was like a public building or like a National Historic Register building that like they gave tours to that was part of the Underground Railroad. But like everybody's house like had like a little spot in the basement where like, yes, consumably human beings could stand here and hide out. I grew up in Georgia so that we didn't have those talks. No. And apparently in this article, the author points out, and I don't know where she got this, but that there's still blemishes on families who were known to have helped slaves on the Underground Railroad in the South still today. I don't know what she's talking about. I thought that was completely out of left field. I grew up in this state and I've never heard anybody be like, hey,

the guy that lived down the street, their family used to hide slaves 200 years ago. Get him. Yeah. That's not true. So, but you were familiar with the Underground Railroad before this article? I was, but it's a good time to point out that not nearly enough because black history is so glossed over in American schools. Except in February. Except in February. And it's still even in February that I went through all my schooling with just knowing, like, there was an Underground Railroad and Harriet Tubman ran it. That's it. Period. Yeah. Never learned about Malcolm X. I think Dred Scott may have been mentioned briefly, but yeah, it's very sad. Yeah. And hopefully that's changed some since then. Well, for the listeners

who had similar experiences, we're about to remedy that because we're going to tell you not only how it worked, we're going to tell you in so much detail that you could conceivably go start your own right now. That's right. And there are some still around today. Yeah. Yeah. Human trafficking. Yes. Human trafficking is the new word for slavery, basically, where it usually it's forced into sex work. Yeah. Right. And there are groups who are dedicated to like freeing sex workers from forced labor. They're called Polaris, which is renaming of the North Star. Yeah. And then and others. We should do a podcast on human trafficking. I think we have a good article on that. Okay. That Molly wrote if I'm not mistaken.

Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. You ready? Yeah, let's do it. All right. So Chuck, basically the origins of the Underground Railroad, which was the network by which escaped slaves, ran along to freedom, almost always to Canada, if they were going north. As it turns out, probably started before the 1820s. But it couldn't have possibly been called the Underground Railroad until after the 1820s, because the actual railroad system wasn't invented until then. Either that or they were like way ahead of their time. Right. But it may have had some sort of name. And we know that there were groups of people who were formed for the common purpose of aiding escaped slaves to go secure freedom to get out of the south or get out of a slave

state into protection in a non slave state. Because George Washington complained about it in a letter in 1786 that he suspected some Quakers that helped some of his slaves escape. He was probably right on the money. Yeah, because Quakers were one of the earliest members of the Underground Railroad. And they were the most trusted because they were so recognizable and everybody knew, hey, Quakers will help you out. Definitely the most trusted white people for sure. Right. But we should probably point out the reason everybody went to Canada was because there was a federal law in the U.S., right? That's right. What was it called? It was called the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793. And it was around since 1793, but it really got its teeth in 1850 when it strengthened

the fines and basically made helping a slave escape a federal crime. And then in non slave states as well. And pretty much meant if you were caught as a slave, you were going to be put to death and likely tortured in a public place. And maybe even your slave family or friends that you were with on the plantation were also punished, even though they didn't try to escape. So anyone involved in this and even not being involved, but being involved by relationship or something like that really had a lot to lose from this one person making it to freedom, which really is just very heartening when you look back on what these people did. They risked a lot in the 1850 stiffening of the slave act. If you armed a slave, which was routinely done because this was dangerous,

then you were subject to execution, no matter who you were, white, black, whatever. That was punishable by being executed. So people who were helping escape slaves were putting a lot on the line, right? Yeah. And one of the myths, there's a few myths that even this article kind of perpetuates a bit, but rarely, or not rarely, but more often than not, they were other black people or former slaves or current slaves helping the other slaves on the Underground Railroad. It was not a big happy group of white Northern abolitionists risking their life to help out the slaves. They did that some, but it was usually Quakers or like I said before slaves or former slaves. So that's one myth. There's a few others. Well, let's go through this. What

did an escape look like, right? Along the Underground Railroad during its height in the mid 19th century? What would happen was free black people would send a field agent, what they called a field agent. It was a lot of times a minister or a doctor posing as like a census taker. Yeah. Somebody who could move throughout a community undetected. Yeah. So they would make contact with a current slave who supposedly wanted to escape and they had to gain their trust because this whole thing was about trust. You really had to trust because people would sell out their own own kind to gain favor with the master sometimes. So sometimes you couldn't even trust your fellow slave. So you really had to gain their trust as the field agent and then they would eventually,

once that trust was gained, arrange for the escape from the plantation to travel to the first safe house to a conductor. Actually, I'm sorry, they pass along to the conductor who would take you to your first station. Yes. And that was the beginning of the journey. Right. And the station was basically somebody's house usually. Yeah. And the head of the household was a station master. And that was somebody who was putting his life and the life of his families on the line, to feed and house and hide this person for a little while, possibly set him up with the disguise, which they got fairly elaborate. Yes. Yeah. There's there's a story of one in a apparently which is a seminal work on the Underground Railroad appropriately titled the Underground Railroad

written by Wilbur Sebert. Right. And he talks about how a black woman was basically made up to look like a wealthy white woman. And to complete this disguise was given a white baby to for her journey. It's crazy. Yeah. So people were, you know, fanatic about this. Yeah. I read another one, a couple from Savannah. The woman was the daughter of the slave, her slave owner. And her mother was a slave, a house servant. Right. So she was light skinned. Right. So they had her pose as a frail, aging white man. And her husband posed as like, you know, a loyal servant slave on their journey all the way from Savannah up to I think Philadelphia or Boston. But yeah, that was kind of harrowing. Apparently they were almost found out a bunch of times. Really? Yeah. So I can imagine like

just trying to escape through the woods is scary enough. Trying to escape disguised in plain sight has to just be nerve wracking. Yeah. You know, especially the lady with the white baby. Because I imagine that whoever might have found her out would not have been too happy about that. No, at the time at least. Along the way, if you did maybe encounter a train conductor who found you out but was willing to keep his mouth shut for money, you needed money. Most slaves didn't have money because they were not paid. Right. And this was, I guess at the station, the station master might also hook you up with some money that came from what are called stockholders. Right. And stockholders were probably wealthy abolitionists who didn't really want to get their hands dirty,

but were happy to support the cause financially. True. Right. Yeah. And I didn't get, I mean, were they just people who supported the cause basically? Financially. Yeah, but you know, obviously in their hearts as well. Sure. Now I know what you mean, though. They didn't risk, you know, walking people through the woods. No. And abolitionists despite, you know, their desire to end slavery were frequently accused and rightfully so in a lot of cases of, you know, saying, well, we think slavery is vulnerable, but you're freed and that's great, but go live over there. We still want to just have our very lily white parties and lives and all that. Right. And there were a lot of abolitionists like that. So I would imagine that just giving money to people,

to use for bribes or for travel or, you know, to support these station houses. Right. Probably really, you know, hit home. It's the same thing today. Yeah. Like people don't go help, like say, the homeless. You're absolving your guilt. They give money to, you know, organizations that actually deal with the homeless. Right. I think that this is very similar to that. I think you're probably right. The war on drugs impacts everyone, whether or not you take drugs. America's public enemy, number one, is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute 2200 pounds of marijuana. Yeah, and they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs, of course, yes, they can

do that. And I'm the prime example of that. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff. Stuff that'll piss you off. The property is guilty. Exactly. And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. The cops. Are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call like what we would call a jack move or being robbed. They call civil acid. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is what it sounds like inside the box car. I'm journalist in El Morton in my podcast City of the Rails. I plunge into the dark world of America's railroads searching for my daughter Ruby,

who ran off to hop trains. I'm just like stuck on this train. God knows where I'm going to end up and I jump. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters living outside society off the grid and on the edge. I was in love with the lifestyle and the freedom this community. No one understands who we truly are. The rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history, and the thing we call the American dream. It's the last vestige of American freedom. Everything about it is extreme. You're either going to die or you could have this incredible rebirth and really understand who you are. Come with me to find out what waits for us in the City of the Rails. Listen to City of the Rails on the

iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts, or cityoftherails.com. Runaways usually didn't travel alone, although again, I read somewhere else on one of the websites that a lot of times they were alone, but when they weren't, they would have a conductor guide them to the next station. Usually about a day away, they didn't want to make it like a three-day journey because you probably don't have tons of food and water and it's just more dangerous the further you're going. Right. Not between station houses. The journey itself, the freedom could last days, weeks, months. Yeah, each station was about a day away, ideally. They would follow the North Star. Yeah, that's a good north. That's why that one modern

Polaris. Yeah, that's why it's called that. Full circle. When the clouds were out, there's the old trick of looking where the moss grows because on tree trunks moss usually grows on the north side and you want to be headed north. There were instances where, because they made it a very zigzaggy route usually, they didn't want to make it a straight line because it made them easier to track, but it also made it easier to get lost as a slave. It did. Actually, there's a sidebar toward the end of this talking about quilt patterns. Right. There were codes embedded within. That may be a myth. I found a substantial amount of it. Really? See, I found stuff saying that was like mythical that in the songs. Check out osblackhistory.com. They have this list, this key

of what all of these different quilt patterns are and what they meant to slaves who came upon a quilt. One of them was this kind of zigzag X. It's called the drunken path. Basically, it's saying go in a zigzag pattern because there's guys out, there's slave hunters around, and if you say started walking south, they would be less likely to suspect that you were an escaped slave if you looked like you were purposefully walking south because what slave would walk south, that's where the south is. Right. That's a good point. But I mean, if it is made up, this guy did a good job of perpetuating it because it's very interesting. Well, even in here it says it's one of the well-known legends or not. They just don't

know because a lot of this stuff, and it's good that you bring that up, a lot we don't know about because the Underground Railroad was a secret. So we don't know about a lot of the places. We don't know a lot of the routes or the people who worked there or who actually started it. Oh, and Josh also, I mentioned the moss on the trees. Clear nights were better to see the stars, but traveling in the rain was pretty good too because a fat white plantation owner probably wanted to be inside by the fire when it was raining and not chasing after his slaves. So let's talk about the laws. We mentioned it kind of specifically earlier about some of the, I guess, the punishment that could befall anyone helping somebody, right? Yeah.

And in 1793, the Fugitive Slave Act basically created the first laws that said an escaped slave can be gone and gotten legally, right? But there were slave states and there were non-slave states. And the non-slave states said, yeah, that's a great law and you do whatever you want down in the South, but we're not really going to enforce it. And when we do, it's going to be very light. Right. Well, in 1850, this thing got a lot of teeth, like you were saying, and the fines were stepped up. The penalties were harsher. Execution was a lot more doable, I guess. And then it also became legal for slave hunters to walk into a free state, a non-slave state, and be like, hey, that black guy right there, I think he's an escaped slave. He should come with me

to anybody. He could legally claim it without having to justify it. Even if they were free men. Yes. And apparently, there were rumors of slave traders luring young black kids in free states onto boats and then taking them off to the deep South. It's like, what are you going to do? Wow. How are you going to find these people? There's no documentation like this. So basically, the North came to really resent this change in the law in 1850 because people who were complacent living in non-slave states suddenly were kind of having slavery imposed upon them a little more. Right. And then the Dred Scott case, like you mentioned earlier, that really sealed the deal and really got abolitionists, I guess their roles expanded

tremendously after that. And then as a result, also the Underground Railroad became much more organized. Yeah. That is Dred Scott v. Sandford. And it was famous because Dred Scott, a slave, sued for his freedom for himself and his wife and his two daughters. And on the grounds that they lived quite a bit of their lives in places like Wisconsin and Minnesota and these outlying Northwest Territories or Northern Territories that had where it was illegal, slavery was actually illegal. So he sued on those grounds and in one of probably the worst Supreme Court decisions in the history of this country, they decided because the panel was full of Southerners, the panel, Supreme Court justices were a lot of Southerners and they ruled that black people were not or people

of African descent were not citizens of the United States free or not. They are not citizens. Therefore, they cannot sue for their freedom. But they don't have any rights so they can be basically captured and taken to a life of slavery again. But if it hadn't been for the Dred Scott case, we may never have, well, we may have, but it really sped up the process of the 13th Amendment, the Emancipation Proclamation. And hence the Civil War. And hence the Civil War. And some of his descendants still live in St. Louis today. Oh, really? Yep. Well, shout out to the Scots of St. Louis. They're listening. Yes. And Chuck, we said that this precipitated the Civil War. The Underground Railroad helped move it along. The Dred Scott case, it basically these

things, Northerners actively subverting federal law and the South's economic clout really ticked the South off. The South imposing its views on slavery on the North through this 1850 strengthening in the Dred Scott case. It really ticked off the North. So this division is very much part of what led up to the Civil War. Yeah, Pennsylvania even thought about nullifying the Fugitive Slave Act. They didn't like it so much. But then they decided, you know what, a better way to do this is probably to be subversive and to support things like the Underground Railroad on the down low rather than cause some big political snake. Right, a check. Exactly. Right. So we say that because the Civil War, whenever you ask a kid, you know, why did the Civil War

happen? Oh, the slavery. I mean, that's a big part of it. But that's why it's not just slavery. It wasn't like the North was like, slavery's wrong and we're going to go to war with you over it or the South was like, we love slavery. We're not part of you any longer. Although the latter I've heard recently was much closer to the point that the South was perfectly happy with seceding, creating its own country and basically creating an economic empire based on free labor that took over the entire Caribbean and the southern U.S. Yeah. I wish I was more of a Civil War buff. I'm glad you're not, Chuck. Really? Yeah. They're obnoxious. I wouldn't say obnoxious, but man, do they know a lot about the Civil War? Yeah. And they like correcting people too. Yeah.

And we're going to hear from them. Yes. So, Chuck, when you did finally make it out along this route up to the northern, the extreme northern states, the northern part of the extreme northern states and to Canada, it could take days, weeks, months. It could take 24 hours if you happen to have the money and the gall to ride a train. Yeah. Or if you live in a border state. Yeah. Which apparently is why a lot of slaves never escaped from the deep South. Just longer to go. It was longer to go and they wouldn't have taken the Underground Railroad, which went exclusively north, I believe. Right. They would have gone to Florida or to Mexico. Never knew that. So, Mexico in 1829 outlawed slavery and became active in protecting slaves

who escaped to Mexico. Yeah. Native American Indians, go figure, were very empathetic. They were probably like, join the club. My man, come on in. Almost literally, Chuck. So, in Florida, in 1693, Spain said, we're issuing a decree here that says any slave or Native American who leaves an English colony and makes it to Florida is a free Floridian, a free member of the Spanish crown. Right. Right. All we want from you is that you convert to Catholic, you convert to Catholicism and become a member of the military for a prescribed amount of time. Right. And in return, you're a citizen here. Right. So, that's why Florida attracted a bunch of people and the reason they did it was specifically to attract people from the English territories like Georgia

or South Carolina because they wanted to jumpstart the economic engine, but they weren't going to do it on slavery. Right. I wonder what impact that has today. I wonder if there are more African American Catholics in Florida proportionately because of that. Well, one of the impacts that it had that's still around today are the Seminoles. The Seminoles were a recent tribe that started in about the 18th century based on displaced Creek Indians who made it to Florida to take Spain up on their offer and escaped slaves. Really? And now there's a division in the Seminole tribe between black Seminoles and red Seminoles. They don't always get along, but during this time, the Seminole Indians came up because in a lot of cases, black slaves, freed slaves or escaped

slaves would come up to an Indian sentiment, live near it, or be absorbed into it and that's where the Seminoles came from. That's pretty cool. Isn't it? There's really one jerk in this whole thing and that's white European dudes. Yeah. Our ancestors checked. There were white Northerners too. It's not all in the South. Jerk white Northerners? Sure. Yeah. Anyway, I'm just always stick up for the South. Well, think about it. There were an estimated 2,000 to 3,000 Underground Railroad workers. Yeah. There are a lot more people in the U.S. in the North and the South than that at the time, buddy. Yeah. That's a good point. It is interesting though to me that you said Canada because that was where many of them ended up and I never knew that. I never knew that and

it made sense because why go to Pennsylvania even though they're sympathetic to a certain degree when the Fugitive Slave Act still is hanging over my head and somebody could turn me in for some dough if they wanted to. Yeah. Let's just go to Canada where they don't care and they don't have those laws. Plus, I mean, it's not like you're going to just stop in Detroit. You're going to be like, oh no, I'm going to keep moving to Canada. Exactly. So we were saying that there were some involvement by some people. There was separate involvement, disconnected involvement, whatever. But some of the people, some of these abolitionists and freed slaves and escaped slaves who've made lives for themselves formed in these Northern non-slave states and enclaves of where an escaped

slave could feel very free like Boston, Philadelphia, I think New York. They formed these things called vigilance committees, right? Yeah. It's very nice. They provided some protection for them, tried to get them work, tried to get them a place to live. It's just sort of like, hey, now you're safe now and we're going to help you set up life as an American. Yeah. And get something that everyone in this country should be born with, which is freedom. Right. And here's a credit card to enslave you in a different way. That came later and that touched all races. It did. Yes. So Chuck, there's one person who kind of rose above all others as far as the Underground Railroad went. And her name was Harriet Tubman. She was, she wasn't, it is still referred to as the Moses

of her people. Yeah. It is not a cliche to bring up Harriet Tubman as, you know, like, of course, you're going to bring up Harriet Tubman. Of course we are because she was the Moses of her people. Yeah. And she was an escaped slave from Maryland. And very sadly, I went back to get her family and helped them escape, found her husband, had a new wife, and he was like, yeah, to stay here. Yeah. And she wasn't too happy with that clearly. So she reportedly, books say, kind of hardened her a little bit. Yeah. Which in the end helped her because you sort of needed a bit of a hard heart to lead people on the Underground Railroad. You didn't need winers and criers and people that would draw attention and make noise. Yeah. Apparently she would threaten to kill people

if they didn't shut up. Yeah. Like quiet down. I'm trying to get you to freedom. Yeah. Just shut up about it. Yeah. Was her motto officially, I think. And she was individually probably the most successful conductor on the Underground Railroad, right? Yeah. I think at least 70 slaves that she led to freedom to New York and Canada. Personally. 13 journeys. And these are long trips. Well, think about it also. She's an escaped slave. She goes back into slave states 13 times to guide people out. She was very bad moment. She's a big bad mama. She went on to serve as a spy, as a scout and a nurse for the Union Army and received no military wartime pension for that, even though she was Harriet Tubman and went on to sell fruits and vegetables door to door.

You're joking. And wrote a book and lived off profits from her book. She actually made money off of it. Which is good. The war on drugs impacts everyone, whether or not you take America's public enemy. Number one is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute 2,200 pounds of marijuana. Yeah. And they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs. Of course, yes, they can do that. And I'm the prime example of that. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff. Stuff that'll piss you off. The property is guilty. Exactly. And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. Cops. Are they just like looting?

Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call, like what we would call a jack move or being robbed. They call civil acid for it. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is what it sounds like inside the box car. I'm journalist, Danelle Morton, in my podcast, City of the Rails. I plunge into the dark world of America's railroads, searching for my daughter Ruby, who ran off to hop trains. I'm just like stuck on this train. God knows where I'm going to end up. And I jump. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters, living outside society, off the grid, and on the

edge. I was in love with the lifestyle and the freedom. This community, no one understands who we truly are. The rails made me question everything I knew about motherhood, history, and the thing we call the American dream. It's the last vestige of American freedom. Everything about it is extreme. You're either going to die, or you could have this incredible rebirth and really understand who you are. Come with me to find out what waits for us in the City of the Rails. Listen to City of the Rails on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, or cityoftherails.com. The U.S. has a long vest. So Chuck, you want to talk about how many people were let out? We mentioned Harriet Tubman let at least 70 out personally.

And estimates vary wildly as to how many people escaped. As we said, the heyday of the Underground Railroad was 1820s to the 1860s, say. Some people maintain about 100,000 people escaped, which is huge. On the other end, the Journal of Black Studies estimates that between 1830 and 1960, only about 2,000 people escaped via the Underground Railroad. The National Park Service settles somewhere in the middle and says, yeah, let's say 1,000 per year. It's a lot. But again, it's very secretive. People have no idea who was who, whether a house really was a stop. There are some places that are most decidedly parts of the Underground Railroad that are still around today, like the Dobbin Horse Tavern in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, has movable bookcase that people

used to hide in. It was a house at the time. But because of the secrecy and because of the success of it, we have no idea who was a part of it, who wasn't. And that's pretty neat, I think. But the National Park Service has really spent a lot of time and effort and money so far figuring out where the Underground Railroad ran and who was a part of it and what billings were and to preserve the billings. And there's actually a bike trail that you can ride, I think 2,200 miles or something like that, along established, identified Underground Railroad routes. I just wanted to point out, when you said the American checkered history, I still feel England stank on this. That was early enough to where it wasn't like

Rednecks from the South. These are still like English flops doing this stuff. So I blame England. You blame England. I'm trying to figure out when my line is drawn and when I'm saying this was America. Because even after the Revolutionary War, it was still just people from England living here. England is your fault. Take that, England. And it's Canada the big hero to you in this one? Yeah, of course, man. You know, that's still a territory of the English crown. Oh, really?

Yeah, it's you on that one, pal. I don't know what to think. So wait, before we go, we have to mention John Brown. We talked about how a lot of people were like, here's some money. I'll be a stockholder in the Underground Railroad and impress my friends. John Brown walked the walk. He lived in free black colonies. If he didn't do it himself, he oversaw the murder of five unarmed pro-slavery settlers in Kansas, which was up for grabs between slavery and a non-slavery state. And he basically turned into a gorilla and staged raids on pro-slavery settlements and killed lots of people. And then he staged the raid on Harper's Ferry

and was eventually caught and hanged for it. But he was, as far as the abolitionists go, he was like, I guess you could say equal to Harriet Tubman as far as in the abolitionist camp, where she was in the freed slaves camp. He was hands on and did it. Did you hear the boxcar guy who packed himself up in a box and had himself shipped to Philadelphia? No, did it work? Yeah. Awesome. He had some biscuits and a little bit of water and some air holes. And I think his nickname

is Boxcar. I can't remember his full name, but they opened up the crate in Philadelphia and he climbed out and they were like, congratulations, you're a free man. Holy cow. So the bravery, I mean, not just the slaves themselves, people who helped. I mean, the bravery of these people at the time cannot be understated. Agreed. Because you were getting tortured and killed if you were caught. And all for your freedom. That's all you were looking for.

Pretty heavy stuff. Yes. So Chuck, if they want to learn more about the Underground Railroad, they should type in Underground Railroad in the search bar at howstuffworks.com. And that of course brings up Listener Mail. And you know, I bet the ladies from Stuff You Missed in History class have probably done one on this already. I believe so.

And so I would seek that out for another angle because sometimes we double up and it's always good to hear different angles on these things. Yeah. And they're a great show too. And you can compare it word for word eventually by comparing the transcripts on the blogs, right? They're like, they were a lot more factual than Chuck and Josh. All right, Josh, I'm going to call this critical email from Katie. We don't read a lot of criticisms much, but this was very specific, so I thought we would.

Hi, Chuck and Josh. I'm a new listener, but I recently listened to about 60 of your shows. I am 31 years old and work as a film producer. You guys have really grown on me slowly. The concept of the show is the best part. I think there are a few things that are keeping you guys from really going big and would like to share my thoughts. First, I think the podcast are a bit slow and have a few too many personal jokes. Every time Chuck has a personal story to go along with the topic, this is the least entertaining and interesting.

Your personal relationships to the topic are mundane. Sorry, this should be cut. The banter is good. You are clearly smart and witty, and that is enough to keep the listener engaged. Josh, your intros are so boring. Why not mix it up and or cut the small talk? I fast forward past it every time. And I think your listener mail is the worst part of the podcast.

I think you lose at least half if not more of your listeners at this part. Save that stuff for the blog. The podcast themselves need to be solid and tight. The production value fails in comparison to this American life or planet money for these reasons. I would highly suggest getting a new producer. Taking potshots at Jerry. That's just so wrong. You need a makeover big time.

You need new music in your intros and throughout the show perhaps. Sound effects and more out of studio commentary. Some of my favorite podcast are saunas, hangovers, cremation, sherpas, reincarnation, mummies, and altitude. Basically, go be Radio Lab. I listened to your Guatemala pieces while I was traveling Guatemala last week. Pretty cool. In hopes of supplementing my education about the country while traveling there,

but you failed miserably. Actually, she says it failed miserable. I get the point though. They were my least favorite podcasts you guys have done. And I think you genuinely wasted your listeners time. With your personal pointless stories about your free vacation. I was shocked to learn how small your perspective of the world is. Considering how often you both write and research about the world.

Your impressions of Guatemala sounded like you've never left the south. They were naive and not worthy of two hours of my time. On the other hand, it was fantastic to listen how volcanoes work while climbing volcanoes in Antigua. This is what you guys are best at and you need to stick to this, but it needs to be better. Seriously, you have mastered the podcast medium, but there is so much potential yet to be tapped.

She says taped. I hope you guys continue to make great podcasts and that you really up the production value. Thank you, Katie M. P.S. I happen to own a house in Turkey and have spent much time in Turkish baths. You define them incorrectly in your sauna podcast. Is that Katie?

Yes, Katie M. Thank you, Katie. For the tips. We appreciate the insight and thanks for listening. We don't know why, but thank you for listening. All right. Well, we've mastered the medium. Okay.

Except for like the 50 points. Well, if you have any pointers for us or tips, we want to hear them. We're always open to that kind of thing. So shoot us an email at stuffpodcastathowstuffworks.com. The War on Drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff. Stuff that'll piss you off.

The cops. Are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call like what we would call a jack move or being robbed. They call civil acid. Be sure to listen to the War on Drugs on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast,

or wherever you get your podcast. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it.