Stuff You Should Know - Impression Management

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

We all in some way care about what other people think of us. At our core we all have a fear of saying something dumb or embarrassing ourselves somehow. One sociological theory says that our effort to prevent those embarrassments is the basis of society.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I'm Josh, and there's's Chuck and Jerry's here too. We're putting on our best faces in this episode of Stuff You Should Know. Right? Our front stage self. Yeah. And speaking of stage Chuck, I have a great intro to this. I believe it was Rush who first said, all the world's a stage, and the men and women on it are merely players, or something like that.

Yeah, performers and portrayers. Yeah. Each another's audience. Is that what he says? I never knew, and I've never bothered to look up the lyrics, because there's definitely some words in there. I'm like, I don't know what Geddy Lee just said.

Yeah, I think, I'm pretty sure that's right. It's a great, great song, Limelight. Very well written. What is very original stuff? Yeah So we're talking about impression management today, right? Yes, sir. And what do you think about it? Well, I think that I just the more I've done this show over the years the more I realized that I could have been a Sociologist. Oh, yeah? Yeah, man. This stuff fascinates me to no end.

I took one sociology class in college and that's it. And I remember at the time, you know, when very little outside of English major classes interested me, I was like, man, this is super interesting to me, but not enough to pursue it. But human behaviors is endlessly fascinating to me. Yeah, and one of the things, sociology gets beat up and edged out and elbowed in the face by psychology a lot, unfairly I think too. Yeah, I'm not talking about social psychology.

No, this is sociology. Yeah. And if sociology started out, we should say, basically examining massive institutions. It was macro sociology, religion, like economics, politics, that kind of stuff, and just how people behaved and interacted, or how people came together to form these institutions. And then the guy we're gonna talk about today came along,

he's like, let's kind of zoom in a little more. And like you were saying, he kicked off this type of sociology that examines like people, just interactions, very small interactions that sometimes we don't even know what we're doing. And apparently you're very interested in that. I am, and you know what? It seems like the more I've learned about Irving Goffman

through today's research and researching him a little further, he's a Canadian-American sociologist. And this is like the mid-20th century, 1950s-ish, when he started doing a lot of this work. He seems to me like someone who was just fascinated by human behavior even more, even in a way that like other sociologists weren't, especially at the time. Yeah, for sure.

He, yeah, and he also, I read that he developed like a real sympathy for the people who were pushed to the fringes of society unfairly, basically across the board. So he was not only like a really good sociologist and very intuitive and apparently he had a really interesting writing style too. He loved the good like turn of phrase.

He was also like a very empathetic good person too from what I can tell. Oh man, I'm so glad I didn't hook my wagon to the wrong dude. Right, no you hooked it to the right guy. And when it's somebody from the 1950s, you never know what's gonna happen there. We should probably say what we're talking about though,

impression management or self-presentation or perception management is basically, these are terms that he came up with all of these, essentially, and it's just how you present to others. And we'll get into the nuts and bolts of it, but how much you might think about that, how much is automatic, how much is intuition, how much of it is authenticity.

It's super fascinating to me. I just, I love this stuff. Yeah, and a lot of it, I mean, when we start talking about it too, it'll just seem very common sense, like yeah, of course you're going to, you know, mind your pees and cues and sit up straight and be friendly in a job interview. And that is a type of impression management, but it is way more granular than that. So the point where like if you're into language, linguistics, that kind of thing, the entire purpose of a conversation is to exchange information.

Like I know this, now I'm sharing it with you. Another person says, thank you very much. And that's what a conversation's for. As far as impression management goes, and Irving Goffman and his ilk, conversations are essentially performances that two people share and do for one another that helps create a version of ourselves that we kind of walk around with and that that changes. And there's very little point to a conversation

other than that. It's a radically different view of things. Yeah, I also think it's interesting. And this is all just precursor stuff that we're babbling on about. But when you said it just seems like instinct or whatever would you say, common sense, to do these things, not everybody, my friend.

And that is something that I've gotten better about over the years. It used to be something that really bothered me, and I would leave an interaction with somebody or something with Emily and be like, God, like just social cluelessness is such a turn off for me, like read the room, buddy. That kind of thing. But then the more I've gotten older and the more we've all learned about different neurodiversities, I've definitely found myself in a place where I try to be like, hey, I don't know what this person's deal is. Like they may be struggling just to present themselves as passing or masking, and we're gonna talk about all this stuff in a situation just to sort of get by.

So I try to really keep that stuff in mind these days. For sure, and I feel like there's different tranches. There's the one you just described, there's people who this is so effortless to, they don't even have to think about it, and they're just great basically across the board. Then there's everybody else in the middle. Some people in the middle are better at it than others. Some people think too hard about it,

and they become obvious and clumsy. And essentially though, no one can escape it, I think, is my point. There's nobody out there who doesn't engage in some sort of impression management essentially their entire lives. Yeah. And neurodiversity is a side, again, which we'll talk about.

There are also people who aren't neurodivergent who are just clueless a-holes. And I have found, too, in my life that I believe narcissism plays a part. I think narcissists have a much harder time because they're generally just have their heads up their own butts and are so about the self. That they are often the ones that I found if they don't have some sort of neurodivergence that's the reason why they are like they are. It may be because of narcissism.

Because usually the reply after someone is like, read the room, buddy. They're like, what? What? I'm perfect. What do you mean, read the room?, read the room, buddy. They're like, what, what? I'm perfect. What do you mean read the room? You read the room.

Exactly. So let's get into it and we'll start with Goffman and where he got his start. Again, this is Irving Goffman, groundbreaking sociologist. He started off doing field work in a Scottish village. And rather than figuring out how the city council worked for that, or the village elders basically kept everybody in line, he just enmeshed himself in the village

and just paid attention to how people interacted with one another. And really, like, that's a very anthropological way of studying, it was very not how they did it at the time among sociologists, So he was he was groundbreaking. He essentially went like I'm going to take this field and just put it take it in a different direction. So let's go. Yeah for sure. He wrote a book in 1956 called The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life. What a great title. No colons. It's

exactly what it says it is. A very big book in the world of sociology and the International Sociological Association named it as the 10th most important sociology book of the 20th century. And in this book is where he touched on what you talked about with this sort of performance aspect of our everyday lives with, he didn't invent it, it was an existing concept, but dramaturgical theory, which is what you said, like, we're all sort of operating on

a social script, sort of like the Terminator, like, and it's pretty limited, you don't have endless options, you're like, maybe you should say one of these four things at this dinner party when someone brings up a thing. And even if it's a brand new situation, you're drawing on the scripts that you've used over and over in your life to work out how to interact in the scene. Right, yeah.

And it's also, yeah, it's been shaped by interactions with other people, it's shaped by what you've seen on TV, which can be very dangerous because stuff that's like, hilarious on a sitcom, does not necessarily translate well in a real life it's like you're being a huge jerk or you're not really that funny you know in the case of somebody who models themselves after friends yeah like pull my finger doesn't always break the ice what no pull my finger always works okay great uh but yeah so what his point was in this dramaturgical theory, and like you said, he didn't invent

it, but if you look into it, he's basically like he's the guy who took it and ran with it. Yeah. No matter where you are, you're performing, and depending on where you are, your performance is going to be different, right? So if you're sitting there at school, you're gonna act different than you do at a bar. Yeah. Right? Sure. Ideally.

Yeah, you would hope for sure. And then if you're at work, you know, you're gonna act a little different from that too. And it's essentially, even when you're hanging out with your closest friends, sociologists believe that you're still performing in some way, shape, or form, just probably less than you normally do. Yeah, and some think even when you're by yourself,

that that still informs how you talk to your little person on your shoulder. Right. Which is really interesting. He talked about appearance and like clothing even and how they will convey, and when we say actor, we're just talking about a person, but in his context of it all being a performance,

he'd call them actors. But you know, your costume that you put on is gonna convey like maybe your social status, maybe what kind of job you have. There's, you know, there's that outward appearance and then there's the manner in which you deal with someone. And obeying the sort of societal rules in a social situation is a big time thing. And if you start to do things that don't comply with what people generally expect in, you know,

at a dinner party or on an elevator or something like that, it can upset people around you. I think the interesting thing that I took from that is, I mean, that's kind of common sense, but when you're writing like a screenplay or something, like dramatic writing or a play, the most interesting characters are usually people that do things that surprise you or that fly in the face of maybe a social norm

or make a decision that's unexpected. So I think it's interesting that in drama, it makes for very compelling characters. But in real life, we kind of don't want that generally. Yeah, like the manic pixie dream girl, right? I don't know what you mean by that. I mean, I know what that term means, but I don't know how it relates to that.

Oh, they're always doing like crazy stuff that like makes the protagonist fall in love with them or whatever? Yeah, yeah, I gotcha. So in terms of a script that might be engaging even within the world of the script whereas in real life I don't know a man at Pixie Dream girl might go over but the person saying pull my finger at the dinner party may not Well, it's funny that you say drama too because to me where my mind went. Like, almost all comedy is a person behaving in a way that is, it violates the situation that they're in, violates the scene and the script that they're supposed to be saying. That's all from Adam Sandler to late Adam Sandler. It's

all basically that. Yeah, I mean, that's the basis of joke telling really, is the unexpected thing happens. Super interesting. And then one other thing too, he made a really good point. He said that the characters or the people who are interacting and again, just essentially performing, that they're trying to come to a common definition of the situation is what he called it.

Yeah, that expected norm. Yeah, and so like if you see, say, a scene on TV, it's just such a perfect analogy because that's essentially what he's talking about. And there's just one dude standing at a bus stop and it's a businessman, say. That scene is in a super position. It hasn't been defined yet because there's only one person. And by the entrance of the next person, that's when the scene will start to be

defined. If it's that guy's boss, he's going to act totally different than if it's a pickpocket or something like that. So the scene hasn't been defined yet, but regardless of how it ends up, like what scene it is, both are playing their role essentially that we just innately know almost. Not innately, because it's learned, but it becomes just second nature for most people.

Yeah, for sure. He also thought that, you know, there's obviously verbal and non-verbal parts to this with body language and how you dress and all that stuff, but Goffman himself thought that the nonverbal part, did I say nonpurple? If you did, it was lost on me, but I like nonpurple more. Okay, I think I might've said nonpurple.

Anyway, which is basically every other color but purple. Yeah. He thought the nonverbal part was the most significant because it's harder to fake, which I think is pretty interesting. Yeah, for sure. And then also like while you're performing quote unquote, again, do we need to keep saying that?

Like people know what we mean, right? Yeah, I mean we could just say interacting with another person. Yeah, while you're interacting as the actor. You may be aware that you have like a goal in mind, like I've got to, you know, I'm at this thing, I've got to present really well, or you may be aware that you have like a goal in mind, like I've got to, you know, I'm at this thing, I've got to present really well, or you may not. Yeah, you may not have a goal.

It may be, as we'll see, you're just trying to keep from freaking the other person out, you know? Like you're not trying to get anywhere, you're not trying to advance or get something from the person or make somebody think that you're great, but just being engaged, forced into a social interaction like that, you have to perform a certain way or else the other person is going to be weirded out, is going to want to get away from you. Sometimes people get really upset when somebody violates norms.

And I think you can really, you can, this explains it a lot. Because it's like someone is expecting somebody to behave in a certain way, that person purposefully doesn't behave in that way, then the people around them might get angry at that person, even though they might just be being themselves. Yeah, or get scared.

Like, you know, when you get on an elevator by yourself and there's only one person on there, you act in a certain way as a almost way to say, you're safe right now. Like, you don't need to worry about me. I'm just going to my room. I'm not that guy that's gonna be some weirdo on the elevator, I promise. You're okay.

Yeah, or even like try to strike up a conversation. Like that's unnerving and disarming. Yeah, I mean, I think definitely not as much for me as for some people, because I was raised in the South. I'm more used to that. And definitely also in an enclosed space, like an elevator, the norms are much different than like walking down the street or something.

For sure. You know, you're trapped basically in that little box. Right, yeah, you have a captive audience. And now I'm panicking. So just to kind of wrap up the whole dramaturgical theory part, Goffman said we have our front stage selves, which I think you referred to earlier, right?

That's us right now, and that's what we do on our job every day. Okay, yeah, but I feel like we're not that much different in real life. No, I think you're right. I mean, that's one of the reasons this show works, I think, and why a lot of podcasts work, is because people are their more true selves,

but it's also sort of the best version of our true selves. We're not the jerks that we can be in real life. Yeah, and that's a really great point that we'll see later. Just because you're doing this doesn't mean you're a phony or inauthentic. You're just drawing on the parts of yourself that are already there that apply to the situation best

in presenting those. Yeah, totally. And I said we, I meant me. You're not a jerk, so I'm just speaking for myself. Hey man, I'm always happy to be included with you. I'm along for the ride. Well, everybody can be like that here and there. That's all I'm saying.

Right, right. I know what you're saying. You don't have to explain it to me. All right, I was explaining it to everyone else. Didn't think I was just dragging you down with me. So you've got front stage selves. This is when you're on stage, you're really out there. There's backstage when you're hanging with your homies.

Yeah, having a cigarette. Homeboys. Yeah. Homegirls. Yeah. Yeah, and just general homies. Yeah, having a cigarette. Homeboys. Yeah. Homegirls. Yeah. Yeah, and just general homies. Maybe your family, if you get along with your family, and you might feel comfortable and calm around them,

so that would be your backstage self. Nice caveat. But note this, he's not saying front stage self and then yourself. It's still a backstage self. You're still attached to the stage. You're still in the theater. Yeah. Even when you're hanging out with your homies.

Yeah, that's true. And then there's the offstage, and that is when it's just one-on-one. This is the best. And that's still a kind of performance. Yeah, this example is just so, it just nails it. When you're a teacher and you see your student at the grocery store.

Yeah, see him IRL? That's like, that's such a jarring thing to see as a kid. Oh man. It's thrilling, it's exciting, because they don't exist outside of that role. No, exactly. So now you see them and they're not dressed like they normally are.

Oh man. They're friendly to your mom or something like that They're and then they're buying olives too And they look like they're really into the to figuring out which olives they want, right? So yeah, that's just for the kid for the teacher You still have to comport yourself in a way that's like, you know I'm not gonna just start cussing in front of the student and just talk like I might normally talk I still have to pretend or talk like I might normally talk.

I still have to pretend or act like I do when I'm this kid's teacher, but that still, it's like a, it doesn't necessarily fit the grocery store stage. So that teacher's in a really weird position right then. That would be offstage interactions. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I love that one. Time for a break? Yes. All right, we're just getting cooking, everybody, so come back more if you want to learn more

about yourself right after this. Learning stuff from Joshua and Charles, stuff you should know. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey. We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives.

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To hear the whole story, listen to Fiasco, Iran Contra on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so one of the keys to Goffman's theory is how important it is to avoid being embarrassed or embarrassing others. He talked about face work, like saving face or losing face, not wanting to be embarrassed, but also he wrote about just your facial expressions, especially in terms of how you disagree with somebody. Even if you say the words that you think are the right way

to disagree with someone, but your face says WTF, like that conveys a confusing message. So even the facial expressions you make have to be considered. Yeah, it's that speech plus nonverbal that equals your performance, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny to see people who are trying

to say something but their facial expressions just doesn't match up. Yeah, I mean, that's a problem I've had to work on in my own marriage with not being the best communicator, which is Emily being like, well, you're saying one thing, but that's not what I'm getting. I'm like, ah!

Yeah. No, I don't want to play Red Dead Redemption. Oh, that's always true The opposite that is right. So the other point of that in addition to that nonverbal Use of face you said also you're trying to help people save face, right? So I said earlier that you might be Forced into a social to act in a social situation a certain way just because you don't want to freak out your friend's mom Who you saw at the mall by acting bizarrely or you know in a social situation a certain way just because you don't want to freak out your friend's mom who you saw at the mall

by acting bizarrely or in a different way than you should. Similarly, if your friend's mom at the mall falls, like slips and falls in the middle of the mall and is embarrassed, you're going to do something that, your performance calls for you to do something to help her save face as well. That's part of face work, too Yeah for sure and face work is another dramatic term. Oh Is it I didn't know that yeah, I think face work and body work. That's all a drama thing that makes sense

Is there a third thing how to move within your space? Yeah, private parts work So Yeah, private parts work. That's awesome. So to Goffman, it could be an obvious thing, like if you're on a first date or something like that, or like you mentioned earlier, a job interview, like that's the super obvious situation. But a lot of times, it's really everyday interactions still count. And there's a philosopher named Lucy Mac who was writing about like when somebody falls down in public, almost always the very first thing that will happen is that person will

look around to see if anyone saw them. And based on that, it's going to change their reaction. And it reminded me of that story I told before about in college when I saw the guy bust his butt on a bike in Athens. And the books went spilling all over the sidewalk, and this dude just opened one of the books, laying on a side with his bike wheel spinning act, and he was reading it. And it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

And then the other day, on my new bike, I tried to do a wheel slide in a gravel parking lot. And I busted my butt and fell. I didn't go, you't go ass over apple cart, but I hit the dirt, and the first thing I did as a 54 year old was look up and see if anybody saw me. You didn't jump up and say I meant to do that? Like, Pee-wee German?

Well, if somebody had seen me, I would have, but nobody saw me, so I just sat there and was like, oh, nuts. Right, so if you do that, like say, if people do see you, you might like look back like closely at the ground, like what did I slip over? What's wrong with this bike? Or you might say like, I hate Mondays

or something like that. And what you're doing is something you mentioned earlier. You're reassuring people like, I'm not a threat to you or to the social order. That was just a total accident. And it might seem like that person is overly self-conscious or something like that, or they might be a little neurotic to feel like they have to do that.

But the philosopher Lucy MacDonald that you mentioned also points out that that's actually not what's going on, that everybody feels like they need to do that, and that it's a rational response to the social expectations that we have of one another. So it just kind of reveals this social intelligence that most people have that is, you don't even know that you're doing in a lot of cases, and that you feel even compelled to do internally. Like when I do that, if I'm so embarrassed, I will blurt something out, like oops or I hate Mondays.

And it feels like it's coming up from my guts and then out of my mouth. Like it's not something where I'm like, I better say something really quick. It's just an involuntary reaction essentially because it's so ingrained. Yeah, because you're not a sociopath. Yeah, I like to think so.

Yeah, I like to think so, too. It's funny thinking about that guy in Athens. It fell. He didn't even look around because it wasn't like, oh, did someone see me? Because hundreds of people for sure saw him. It was like a crowded campus, so I felt bad for the guy. But it was hysterical.

And one day, I'm going gonna meet that person, I think. Yeah, I wonder what he's doing now. Can you imagine if I was at a party one day and somebody was telling that story, like one time in college, I wrecked my bike and I was reading a book. What would you do? Would you buy him something?

I would hug him immediately and be like, I saw that. And I've been telling that story for 40 years. That's great. 40? No, not even. 30. Yeah. 30 is about right. Yeah. And you'd be like, I'm not a hugger.

Yeah. Then I screwed up yet again. Uh, so I said that when people, um, fall and they're saying, like, oops, or I hate Mondays, or they're looking at the crack, or they're going through their book, whatever, um, they're reassuring people that they're actually normal. And the norm in countries like the US, say, in the West, is what's called civil inattention, to where you, ideally, you acknowledge the presence, the existence of another person

so that you're on a subway with. And that's where it ends. And then, yeah, it ends there, right? Something that I find dismaying is I see more and more that acknowledgement doesn't even happen. It's just totally ignoring one another. And that, man, that gets me. Especially if you nod at somebody else

and they just ignore you. I think that gets me. Especially if you nod at somebody else and they just ignore you. I think that is awful. Yeah, I mean, not to be old man here, but cell phones and smartphones have definitely played a part in that, I think, because people escape into the comfort of like, well, I'll just look at this instead. Yeah, yeah, and they're just like,

oh, what's on my phone? Yeah, I mean, if you were raised in the South or have lived in the South, then you're more comfortable with more acknowledgement. Yeah, I mean if you were raised in the South or have lived in the South and you're more comfortable with more acknowledgement and maybe even a brief conversation with a stranger. Sure. That can be very off-putting for people that aren't used to that. So I try to remember that when I am in a maybe I've had a drink or two and I struck up a conversation with someone I don't know.

On an elevator? Yeah I've done that too. I did it last week in fact. So speaking of elevators Chuck, you mentioned going into an elevator and turning around and what a violation of the social order that is. The elevator is this perfect little encapsulation for sociologists to study because we just know what to do. When somebody gets on an elevator and there's already people on there, everybody spreads out, rearranges themselves

to make room for this person in their personal space. And it's not like we're like, okay, I'm gonna go over here, you go here. And then when somebody, the next person comes on, you get off and then this person's gonna go where you were. It just happens and it's a beautiful, synchron get off, and then this person's going to go where you were. It just happens, and it's a beautiful, synchronized effort, right? It really is. But when sociologists get on elevators and they turn around, there's an apocryphal story about Irving Goffman doing

that and studying, and people just flipping out by... No, they don't turn around. They just go straight in and stand there looking at the rear. Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah. Um, right. Well put. So that's actually, um, not just what sociologists like to do. It was, like, a big one on candid camera back in the day for a while. Yeah.

And, um, there was one candid camera, um, episode where they did the opposite, where the elevator was already, um already had a bunch of people on it But they were facing the rear when the doors open Oh, and the person who is being I guess pranked came on I wouldn't get on that elevator car So this person they got on and they kind of looked like they didn't know what to do for a second And then they turned and they faced the rear knew it Wow. That's incredible Yeah, it's almost like they thought

that they hadn't gotten the revised script pages that day, and everybody else did, so they just needed to go along with it because they didn't want to upset the apple cart. Things have changed. This is not what they expected. But they weren't about to be the one who just stuck to the original norm and upset everybody else. Wow. Did they yell out, can I have the new sides, please?

Someone to fly those in? Line. and Harold Norman upset everybody else. Wow, did they yell out, can I have the new sides please? Someone to fly those in? Line. That's really funny and that doesn't surprise me. And I bet the live audience at Canter Canberra just got a big old hootie laugh on that one. Man, that Alan Funt. So there was a guy named Harold Garfinkel,

another sociologist that would, I mean, he called them breaching experiments, but it's really messing with people, and he did things like that, like sit down on the escalator, or just like point at somebody, and I'm not a big fan of those kind of experiments. No, but they're all over YouTube, people doing that.

I bet. It's pretty funny, but yeah, if you're ever in a mall and somebody sits down on an escalator or whatever, it's probably a sociologist Yeah, if not just politely go in the other direction Well, no, that's why you carry a water gun around with you just scored him in the face a few times and say stand up super soaker So there's ways that we figure out how to perform because like I said, a lot of it just seems ingrained.

A lot of it requires thought too. Especially if you have a goal, like you're trying to become a member of a country club, which everybody's been through that. Yeah, yeah. And these two researchers, they were psychologists back in 1990. Mark Leary and Robin Kowalski,

they basically figured out how we do this kind of stuff and they broke it into two things. There was impression motivation why you're doing this and impression construction how you're doing this. Yeah and as far as motivation it's based on a few factors. One is how relevant a person thinks their image is to achieve this goal. So in other words, does it really matter here how I'm acting to get what I want? How valuable the goal is, which is, this is something I really want, am I trying to get a job or just whatever, something a little less stakes?

And then finally, the extent to which they believe they're not currently being perceived in the most useful way. In other words, how much do I need to pour it on here to get what I want? Yeah. Like how am I being perceived and what do I need to do to change that? Right, exactly. So you put all those together

and that's your motivation for figuring out some impression management. Again, this is the ones where you're like actually giving thought to it. Right. In impression construction, how you actually carry this stuff out, they broke into five little parts.

One is your self-concept, right? So you're gonna base how you carry this out on how you feel you are. So you're trying, you're starting with your authentic self, ideally, right? Because people value authenticity, people don't wanna just keep up a lie. Again, that's a half hour sitcom right there.

Because it always crumbles. It always crumbles everybody in real life and on sitcoms. In 22 minutes, and then it gets resolved. Right, exactly. So your self-concept is where you're gonna start, and you're going to kind of draw from that. Imagine a big steamer trunk on stage that Carrot Top's going through,

just pulling a bunch of props out of. That's what you're doing when you first start to figure this out. That's going through the steamer trunk of your self-consent. Wait a minute. Are you saying right now we are Carrot Top? The entire world is, all the world's a stage and we are merely carrot tops.

Carrot tops. Then there's the desired identity. So you're trying to protect an identity and you base that on what you want people to think you like and don't like or what you wanna be or don't wanna be. Right. So you might really try to distance yourself from something you don't wanna identify with.

Yeah, like, oh boy, how about that John Legend? Phew. That was random. And all that immense talent, like, get over it, buddy. You wanna be very careful with this. This is one of those things that shows what a tightrope you can be walking when you're purposefully constructing impression management.

If you're in that case yucking someone's yum, that can turn people off and ruin all of the other stuff that you just did. So it can backfire. Someone opens up their jacket and they're wearing the John Legend shirt. Right, or you accidentally say it to Legend, because you didn't recognize him. Yeah. I don't know why I pulled him out.

I know nothing much about him other than La La Land and the fact that he's super talented. Yeah. No, he was perfect. I mean, totally neutral. Everybody loves him. Like, it was just, that was great. Non-controversial in almost any way. Yeah, all right. He's managed to distance himself

from his wife's public persona, so yeah, non-controversial. Who is she? Chrissy Teigen. Oh, I know that name, but I don't know much about her either. That's fine. All right, moving on.

Yeah, so the next one is Target Value, and it's basically saying, like, you're just going to take those things from your steamer trunk of your authentic self, and you're going to adorn yourself with the ones that make the most sense for this identity that you're trying to be viewed with. Yeah, but based on what you think they want, right?

Yeah, but again, this is not where you're just like, you know, stealing stuff from other people and making it your own. You're going, ideally, you're going into your own authentic self and saying, this one makes the most sense to what this person's going to expect or want. Yeah, exactly.

Like aligning yourself with someone else's values, ideally stopping short of like, you know, doing something that's not inauthentic. Yeah, and there's one thing I think we should say at this point, because it's really easy to just assume like this is what everybody should be doing. And I think it's worth questioning. It's not inherently a good thing to change yourself

or to rearrange yourself. It can be a bad thing, but it can also be a good thing too. So just know we're not saying like, you should be out doing this. You should really be thinking about what you have inside yourself that you can impress other people with. That's not what we're saying. But people do do that, and that falls under the umbrella of impression management. Yeah, we're saying this is what Leary and Kowalski have noticed happens.

Yeah, blame it on them. And the rain. And then there's current, oh, I'm sorry, I skipped one, didn't I? Role constraints, presenting yourself in a way that's, well, that's kind of the same thing as target value, except target value is a little less that I want to align myself with what you may be into. Yeah. And a little more of just like the general expectations of a social role. Right.

Like you would wear a top hat and a monocle to a meeting with a bunch of bankers, because that's what they would expect you to do. Exactly. And then there's current social image, which is what you perceive of yourself and if other people, if you think other people perceive you in a way you don't like. Yeah. There are some other techniques that they've, you know, that people can use. Flattery, of course, will get you everywhere.

Ingratiation, stuff like that. Conforming to expectations, that's kind of like the other stuff, I think, like role constraints and stuff like that. And then a big one is suppressing your emotion and maintaining your self-control. Again, that doesn't mean to be inauthentic, but that just means read the room, is it time for me to be overly emotional about something, or is it not?

Do I need to kind of put a lid on that for now? Yeah. If you're triggered and you have a temper because people are taking too long in the grocery store line, don't push a whole load of groceries back into an aisle and shout a curse word and storm out. No. I've seen it in real life, actually. curse word and storm out. No. I've seen it in real life actually. Oh, I'm sure.

Yeah. It's like, what is going on, buddy? It's hard to not think just constantly what's wrong with people. But you know what? The fact is, again, as I get older, there's a lot wrong with a lot of people. So I try to keep that in mind. Yeah.

Everybody's got some sort of burden they're carrying. And some people are more vocal about it than others, I guess that's a very nice way to say more some people Misproject it in the wrong way more loudly than others. That's another way to say it There's also one called basking and reflected glory Which is basically like hanging out with somebody who's a great example of the the of self you wanna be identified as. Yeah. Not necessarily good. It's much better to blaze your own trail,

make your own version, but I kinda, I get it. The one that's just not good at all is the downward comparison, which is putting someone down to show that you're not like them at all. Yeah, that's not a good thing to do. And again, all of this, to convey all this stuff, you gotta have pretty good cognitive empathy and pretty good self-monitoring.

You gotta be able to read the room, read social cues, regulate your emotions, and again, I think this is why people with a narcissistic personality disorder may have a harder time, may have more difficulty doing stuff like this. For sure. Another break? We have 40 minutes in, let's take our second break.

Alright, we'll be back. This is going to be a little beefy guys, but we're into it. Learning stuff from Joshua and Charles. Stuff you should know. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey. We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend.

At the end of the day it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit adoptUSkids.org to learn more. Brought to you by AdoptUSKids, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council. The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and batter than ever. I'm Erica. And I'm Mila.

And we're the hosts of the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe. With guests like Corinne Stephens.

I've never seen so many women protect predatory men. And then me too happen. And then everybody else wanna get pissed off because the white said it was okay. Problem. My oldest daughter, her first day of ninth grade, and I called to ask how I was doing. She was like, oh, dad, all they was doing

was talking about your thing in class. I ruined my baby's first day of high school. And slumflower. What turns me on is when a man sends me money. Like, I feel the moisture between my legs when a man sends me money. I'm like, oh my God, it's go time. You actually sent it?

Listen to the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go to find your podcast. In the fall of 1986, Ronald Reagan found himself at the center of a massive scandal that looked like it might bring down his presidency. Did you make a mistake in sending arms to Tehran, sir? No. It became known as the Iran-Contra affair. And I'm not taking any more questions. In just a second, I'm going to ask it.

I'm Leon Nefak, co-creator of Slow Burn. In my podcast, Fiasco, Iran-Contra, you'll hear all the unbelievable details of a scandal that captivated the nation nearly 40 years ago, but which few of us still remember today. The things that happened were so bizarre and insane, I can't begin to tell you. Please do. To hear the whole story, listen to Fiasco, Yaron Contra on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Chuck, so just real quick before we keep going on, it's worth mentioning that forming an online identity is essentially, it's like a whole new can of worms as far

as sociology is concerned. We just couldn't do it before and it allows you to do things, try on new things in ways that it was just impossible to previously. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, that could be a shorty or something on its own, huh? Uh-huh, for sure. Should we talk about authenticity though, a little more?

Yeah, because again, this is, everybody wants to be viewed as authentic. And just the fact that you've realized now that you're performing at all times can make you feel like you're not authentic, but we're here to tell you you're still authentic Yeah for sure There have been researchers that I mean it kind of depends you can there are a lot of ways to I don't like saying skin a cat anymore

To tackle the cat now. There's a lot of ways to pet the cat. We're not we're not saying skin the cat anymore. I Don't know. I mean it just occurred to me. That's pretty horrific thing to think about. Yeah I don't know where that came from but sure. I guess I can get on board with that. All right there's a lot of ways to pet a cat. Actually there's only one way and that's with the grain but anyway. How about skin your knee? Sure. There's a lot of ways to skin your knee. Like a 54 year old wrecking his new BMX bike. Exactly. Some people say there's a real distinction between self-presentation, which is like the influence that you're feeling by pressure and the effort

that you're putting out, and then self-expression, which is your authentic self. But there are psychologists, or I'm sorry, yeah, I guess psychologists in this case, a guy named Barry R. Schlinker, who says that actually self-presentation is, everyone does it in all social interactions. Like even if you're married,

you're influencing each other and behaving in a certain way. It may not even require like attention and probably doesn't if you're married. But it doesn't mean you're being inauthentic if you're still doing that kind of within your marriage. No, and even like within yourself, like when we did the inner dialogue episode, we talked at some point about how,

even when you're talking to yourself, that inner voice is often shaped by external forces. And some sociologists say, yeah, even, it goes even that far. That's how far the self is shaped by these scripts and these performances and everything that, even when you're alone, you still might find yourself engaging in some performance or another. Yeah. And the stuff that we feel like is automatic, and you kind of touched on this earlier, is maybe not automatic. You may not even realize that this is stuff that you've like is automatic, and you kind of touched on this earlier, is maybe not automatic. You may not even realize that this is stuff

that you've been practicing your whole life. I think anyone who's ever had a kid has seen that kid like practicing faces in the mirror. There's some, I mean, a very tropey movie scene is someone who practices a scene in the mirror of like interacting with someone. Like, oh, let me get that chair for you and practicing a smile.

I mean, Nathan Fielder has a whole show about this called The Rehearsal, it's fascinating. Man, I love that guy. Are you watching the new season yet? No, no, is that the one that's an actual like, it's fiction? No, no, no, that was the one he did with Emma Stone. This is the rehearsal season two, which is he sets up these elaborate rehearsals

for everyday life stuff. Okay. You should check out season one and then just steamroll into season two. It's fascinating sociological stuff. Nice, I definitely will. Yeah. Do you ever rehearse what you're going to say?

I know you rehearse like what you're doing next, like if you're cooking something. You've said that before. Oh, right. But do you ever like practice in your head what you're doing next. Like if you're cooking something, you've said that before. But do you ever like practice in your head what you're gonna say, like even mundane stuff? Like what am I gonna say to this convenience store clerk when I go to check out? No, all that stuff is pretty

innate for me. That's very lucky. But again, maybe innate from years and years of practice. Yeah. It's possible. Or maybe you were just born with it. Maybe it's Maybelline. So you mentioned the automatic stuff that is essentially breathing. Like if you look at how Schlanker describes it,

he's describing the same thing as breathing. Like it's just that automatic. And that automatic mode can be in a like high gear or low gear. And typically if you're backstage, hanging out with your friends, embarrassment. Again, the driver here is preventing embarrassment. Preventing from embarrassing yourself,

preventing embarrassing other people or making them feel embarrassed by association. Like you're preventing embarrassment. And one of the reasons why it's easier to hang out with people in your backstage mode is because the stakes are low. If you embarrass yourself, it doesn't matter nearly as much as if you embarrass yourself, you know,

if you pee your pants in a job interview. Yeah. Although the funny ironic thing for us is, and I believe anyone that performs on stage, literally backstage sometimes can be some of the most anxious when people are sent back there like, oh the company wants to send back these strangers, you don't know.

That's almost the height for me of like, oh boy, here I gotta turn on the chuck. Yeah, and I just want to apologize for the group of Citibank card holders from like 10 years ago, who we had a meet and greet with, and it was very awkward, so sorry guys. We never really got to say sorry. That's why we don't do meet and greets anymore.

It's just, yeah, we just want to be backstage with our homies. Exactly. Yeah. So there's also, we can also automatically go into a much more performative mode when the stakes get a little higher. Yeah. But either way, it's still automatic.

So Schlanker is like, nope, we're really kind of performing almost at all times. And then there was a scholar of gender named Judith Butler. And by was, I mean is. And Judith Butler said, everything about you is shaped by sociological forces, including gender, that people learn how to behave according to what society says their gender is, or what's expected of that gender. And that's just how we learn to behave certain ways according to gender.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of grown men who have a story where they're like, when I was in the third grade, I played with dolls and I got made fun of. And because that wasn't the socially acceptable, you know, masculine construct. And from that day forward, I started doing things to where I fit in a little more on the playground. And that shapes how they are, you know,

decades later sometimes. Right, yeah, carried over from the playground into the rest of their life. Yeah, and this stuff is all changing for the better, I think, but it's still, it's not like it's been eradicated, you know? Yeah, and speaking of gender, too, I wondered if, you know how some people

are just deeply offended by people who are gender fluid? Like, to the point where you're like, what, you don't even know this person, why do you hate this so much? It made me wonder, like, if the person who's so offended by it is upset because that other person is flagrantly violating a social script, and it's making them that other person is flagrantly violating a social script.

And it's making them and other people uncomfortable. And that brings up a further point too, which is more valuable, that person's authentic self, that they're gender fluid, or the comfort of everybody else, the strangers around them? Which one is more valuable? Who should win out in that case if there's a conflict like that? Absolutely. I mean, sadly, stuff like that is being literally litigated, but also the idea of changing social norms. And, you know, if you're not rolling with the changes that are happening in society, you may find yourself on an island of Inacceptance and loneliness But that may be fine with you because you may want to be like no things were better the old way at the same time, too You can't change social norms without violating them

They tend to just kind of stay static and to make them dynamic They have to be violated and anyone who's seen the movie Pleasantville knows that that can turn out pretty good And anyone who's seen the movie Pleasantville knows that that can turn out pretty good. Right. You may end up in color one day. Man, that was a good movie. Yeah, that was pretty good. I haven't seen that in a while. Yeah, I saw it a couple years ago.

I watch it every couple years. Oh, okay. I've only seen it once. Oh, you should keep watching. Just buy the DVD. Go old school. All right. I mean, there's a lot of movies that kind of dance around this stuff,

like the Truman Show, and just, you know, I feel like this is just rife ground for comedy and drama. I agree, Chuck. Rife, ripe, ripe. Purple. So, you know, I mentioned neurodivergence earlier, and just sort of my, and I, you know, when I was doing this research,

I had that awakening of like, yeah I've been much more cognizant of that kind of stuff as I've gotten older and that stuff is more in the forefront and diagnosed more and more about like understanding that hey, that person that I think is like, man read the room, why are you acting like that? They may have something going on. Neurodivergently there may be a genuine mental illness there. Goffman argued that if you have a mental illness or any sort of thing, a disability or if you are unhoused or you're obese or a drug user, that all just lumps you in as a thing, I mean, a stigma, which we're going to talk more about in a second basically,

but it ends up sort of creating the symptom of that thing just because you're put in that box. Yeah, and so anybody who has a social stigma, like you just mentioned, you rattle off that list, they're what Goffman called discredited. They don't have, they're not, they have less value according to society. If you, this is where he developed that empathy from researching this stuff. I bet. Especially based on something like someone's ethnicity or whether they're handicapped

or whether they're homeless or whatever. That the idea that they have less value, socially speaking in this sense, is totally unfair because the social norms that we create are generally arbitrary. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And in not all cases, but impression management is a tool that people can use to get over

or hide those stigmatized features. I mean, we can't get super into code switching, but that could be a pretty interesting short stuff to accompany this, I think. That is the idea, and it's not specific to the African American community, but it is if you talk to a group of African Americans in the United States today or, you know, for many years now, they will say, no, code switching is how we get by in white America, basically. And that's the idea that you may change the way you talk when you're around white people or change the way you act than you normally would when you're in, you know, around your

family and friends or your own community. And that's a big, big thing. Yeah. And that's a big, big thing. Yeah, and that's a great example of it. You could also be like, my last name sounds pretty ethnic, and I want to change it so that people call me back for job interviews. There's a lot of stuff you can do.

So you're not, you're covering your stigma, so you're not an automatically discredited person. But according to Goffman, you're discreditable. If you're found out, you will be stigmatized. So it's a terrible situation all around, just to stigmatize groups based on arbitrary social norms. I hate it. Yeah. I remember in elementary school, I'm not going to name her name, name, because I don't know if she would want this out there, but there was a girl from, you know, an Indian

American girl in our school that came back after a summer with an Americanized first name. And so she was that from fourth grade till senior in high school when we graduated together. And I lost touch with her and like five or six years ago, my good friend in Boston said, oh, well, so-and-so's in town. I said, oh, is she going by that name now again? And she went back to her, you know, she grew up a little bit and was like, no, that's my name, that's my Indian name. And it just made me feel really good

that she reached that point, you know. Good for her. Yeah, it was great. So, you know, the furthest end of this, I guess, spectrum is autism. And we've talked about autism here and there, but a lot of times, if you have autism, you might have difficulty

responding in what people might consider an appropriate way in a social situation and masking is a big can be a big part of Self presentation when it comes to people with autism. Yes, but there's autism researchers Amy Pearson and Kieran Rose and, and they go to great pains to basically say masking is different than impression management. Impression management is something everyone has to do. Masking is specific to typically neurodivergent people to where they are protecting themselves by pushing down their actual identities and hiding it at all costs

because they're afraid of being stigmatized, because they've been taught over the years that they're not acceptable as they are. And so those are two really different things, even though they seem pretty, like they have a lot in common. Yeah, for sure. And masking, you know, there are all kinds of people who mask.

We talked about that in the sociopath episode once again. And got emails from people that are like, I'm a sociopath, and I put on a big performance so people don't know that. Yeah. Yeah, they're just always walking around like, I love you, man. Right. Yeah. Just one note about autism, which obviously deserves its own episode, still coming down

the pike one day, don't worry about that. But you were talking about just kind of learning as you get older, you know, that you can't just make assumptions about people based on their ability to interact socially. If you want to develop a familiarity and empathy for people with autism, I think you could do a lot worse than starting with Love on the Spectrum. All seasons, Australian version and American version. I think that is very sweet

because that is like the fifth time you've recommended that show to people. People need to watch the show. It's so great. This season in America deserves an Emmy. It's a masterpiece. I've still America deserves an Emmy. It's a masterpiece. I've still never seen it. You really should.

I think you'd love it. All right. So I guess, Chuck, since I did my every 10th episode mention of Love on the Spectrum, it's time for Listener Mail. Hey, guys. I love the show. This is about popcorn, by the way.

Okay. Just finished the podcast on popcorn. It reminds me of a segment I saw years ago on Alton Brown's Good Eats. Alton Brown, Atlantan, and I did a little work on that show back in the day. It's a props guy. Nice. While not directly related to popcorn, and Alton was a good dude to work with, by the way. Nice.

While not directly related to popcorn and Alton was a good dude to work with by the way. Nice. While not directly related to popcorn in this particular episode, the show's resident food anthropologist related a factoid on Montezuma's revenge. They thought Montezuma's real revenge was allowing the conquering Spaniards to return to Spain with maize without the knowledge of nyx-tomalization which resulted in widespread pellagra or pellagra causing dermatitis, diarrhea, dementia, and eventual death due to a lack of essential nutrients, niacin and tryptophan in their diets. Nyxomalization is a traditional Mesoamerican process used to prepare maize and other grains for consumption involving cooking the

grain in an alkaline solution typically lime water which then allows for the outer pericarp, the skin, to be easily removed. The process significantly improves the digestibility and nutritional value of the grain, and that is from Bob. Bob, that was a great email. Yeah.

A top notch one, I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. Agreed. If you wanna be like Bob and send us a really interesting top notch email, we love that kind of thing. You can send it off to stuffpodcast at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

you listen to your favorite shows. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Marin Morris is here. You came out of a marriage, you came out of quote unquote country music, and you had a huge growth spurt from what I can tell. I was expanding and growing at a really fast pace. And yes, you could throw motherhood and the postpartum thing, learning about myself. There were a lot of identity crises going on, but I realized I can't look back and slow down for people. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We asked parents who adopted teens to share their journey.

We just kind of knew from the beginning that we were family. They showcased a sense of love that I never had before. I mean, he's not only my parent, like he's like my best friend. At the end of the day, it's all been worth it. I wouldn't change a thing about our lives. Learn about adopting a teen from foster care. Visit AdoptUSKids.org to learn more. Brought

to you by AdoptUSKids, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and the Ad Council. In the fall of 1986, Ronald Reagan found himself at the center of a massive scandal that looked like it might bring down his presidency. It became known as the Iran-Contra affair. The things that happened were so bizarre and insane, I can't begin to tell you. Please do. To hear the whole story, listen to Fiasco, Iran-Contra, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.