Stuff You Should Know - Interesting Origins of Everyday Phrases

Episode Date: December 15, 2022

We don’t think about the words and phrases we use all the time - until Josh and Chuck look into them and tell everyone what they found. That’s the gist of this episode! See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Munga Shatikler and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to believe. You can find it in Major League Baseball, international banks, K-pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me and my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too.

Just a Skyline drive on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey and welcome to the podcast, I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too and this is a good old-fashioned episode of Stuff You Should Know. That's right. So before you get going, we want to make a plea to cough up just a little bit of dough for our friends at co-ed. If you don't know our friends at Cooperative for Education who break the cycle of poverty

in Guatemala through education, we're trying to get to a million bucks donated by the Stuff You Should Know family, not only me, this is the family. Sure. And we're getting close, so where can they go to do that? They can go to co-operative4education.org slash S-Y-S-K and every little bit helps. Large donation, small donation, doesn't matter because they're all going to be pulled together and get us to $1 million donated from Stuff You Should Know listeners. Which would be great and you got another little piece of housekeeping, right?

Yes. I wanted to thank a guy named Daniel Murgatroyd who is a rather talented painter who a while back noticed a picture of Momo that I posted on Instagram and he offered to paint it. And he sent me a straight up amazing oil painting that looks just like the photograph. So we have a wonderful oil painting of Moe and I just wanted to thank him for that and tell everybody to go check him out on Instagram, Daniel Murgatroydart, M-U-R-G-A-T-R-O-Y-D art. He's really, really good.

So, and I think he might be accepting commissions by the way. Oh, I'm going to check that out. No Marvin Martian jokes, I promise. No, I always think of Jam on it. I think that's one of the little gremlins sisters is named Murgatroyd. Yeah, I always think of Marvin Martian, Heavens to Murgatroyd. Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot about him.

I was never a big fan of his. He was creepy. I liked him. Okay. We also need to shout out worldwide words. If you've never been on worldwide words website, it's amazing. The guy, Michael Quinlan, who ran the site is, he just really did some amazing work of digging up word origins and etymology and all that.

And then Grammarist is another really good site that we drew from among many others. But those two were the ones who deserve the biggest shout outs. Yeah, we've done something like this before and I think every couple of years we'll probably throw out another word and phrase origin episode because it's always fun to look at this stuff. I'm an enthusiast of phrase origins and we're going to kick it off with the old on the wagon phrase. You are on the wagon. That means you are not drinking.

You are sober. Oh, I can't have that drink, man. I'm on the wagon. Right. Right. And this one's awesome because we actually know pretty much with 100% certainty where it came from. But first, before we get to that, let's talk about a couple of competing theories.

One of them is from our friends across the pond in the UK who apparently back in the day, if you were being taken to jail or you were being taken to the gallows, you would be taken by wagon or cart and the very gracious constable or jailer would stop at a pub and let you have one last drink. And then after you had that drink, you would get back on the wagon, never to drink again. That's right because you're about to go get your head chopped off. Right. So I don't even know if that happened, but whether it did or not, it's not the origin

of on the wagon. Sorry, Brit friends. No, it's a good one, though. And it's funny. Anytime you do research on phrase origins, there are always a lot of competing theories and a lot of them sound really fun and you will probably repeat some of them, but a lot of them aren't true. No, but these are vetted, man.

We really worked hard to make sure that this one really, really is accurate. All right. So moving on a little closer, but not quite there. This sort of dances around the true origin, but this one takes us to America. We don't have to go across any pond because we're here already and the temperance movement is what we're speaking of where if you listen to our episode on, what's it called when they got rid of all the booze? Prohibition.

Prohibition. It was led by the temperance movement, which was a movement of uptight people who said, you shouldn't drink. No one should drink and we're going to make it really hard for you to drink. So the temperance movement was really happening and they would go through towns at times preaching abstinence and literally like parading through town and they would almost like a church invitation would call people to take the pledge, like come up and take the pledge and say you're not going to drink this devil's juice anymore and sign this thing swearing that you're never

going to take a drink again. And here after you've signed it, why don't you just jump on this wagon we're riding around on through town and you can beckon others to do the same. And that is where the origin of on the wagon came from. Oh, he's such a good actor, not quite. It's good and it's close again, it dances near it, but that is not quite right, right? Right. It turns out it did have to do with the temperance movement and their pledge and people taking

the pledge, but it wasn't a parade wagon that was being referenced, it was what was called a water wagon or a water cart. And back in the day, around the time of the last turn of the century, there were lots of towns out there that had just nothing but a dusty dirt street. There was no pavement, no oyster shells, no cobblestones, nothing like that. And on dry days, that dirt could turn to dust and blow in your face. So the water cart would be a cart of non-potable water, non-drinkable water that a horse would draw that would just kind of spray the road down to keep it from being dusty.

Yeah, it's what they call in the film business a wet down. Sure. It's what they usually do on asphalt streets to make it look cooler at night. So I don't know if they did it for that, but this was more practical. But the point was the water in the water cart, you did not want to drink. So when somebody who'd signed the pledge said something like, I'd rather drink from the water wagon or the water cart rather than take a strong drink again, that is the origin of I'm on the wagon.

That's what they were saying is I would rather drink this nasty water than drink a glass of whiskey again. Yeah, that's a good one. I thought so too. And then water wagon became just the wagon. And apparently by 1904, there was an article in the Devonport Daily Leader that said a man fell off the water wagon and they felt obligated to say this was a real water wagon, not the figurative one.

So it was at least in widespread use by 1904. All right, I like that. I do too. That was a good one. All right. I guess we're just going to have to get into this because this one bothers me. That is exception that proves the rule. Because I fully understand what this means.

And I get it. And I didn't know anyone had any problem with the phrase, the exception that proves the rule. Oh, really? So like the original and proper use of it, that's the only one you're aware of? I mean, I feel like I know what it means and that I don't understand the confusion of what it means. Well, let's explain what some people are confused by.

So a lot of people out there think that the phrase, the exception that proves the rule is talking about like an outlier, an exception that by its very existence, it shows that the rule that it's breaking is generally true. That's how it's used. That's not it though. That's not correct. And it's actually kind of nonsensical if you dig into it. I don't think so.

I think that's how modern people use it. I think this is a case of changing language. Yes. And I think it's very easily understood. Like if I say I hate all mushrooms, but I like portabellas only, then that is an exception that generally proves the rule that I hate all other mushrooms. Okay, but let me explain why it's actually nonsensical. Like yes, you're absolutely right.

So many people use it like that, that it has come to mean that as well. But we're talking about like the original version, which still holds the same meaning too. It's still a useful way of using it. It's not like archaic or antiquated. Right. But what I'm saying is don't get your hopes up that you're gonna convince me that it's nonsensical.

Okay, that's fine. But let me explain why you're wrong. So there's an adage that you only have to find one white crow to disprove that all crows are black. But does that mean that that one white crow also proves that crows in general are black? I would say no, because how many white crows are out there? Right? Sure.

It doesn't mean anything. It just means the one thing that not all crows are black, it doesn't show also that crows are generally black. That's why it's generally considered nonsensical. Yeah, I don't buy it. There's a second way to do it too that really emphasizes the proves part. The exception proves the rule, but they don't mean prove as in like I proved it. It's inarguable.

They mean it in the scientific term of test the validity of. Yeah, that makes sense, but that's not what it was originally intended to mean either, though, right? And another good example is let's say you have a rule that says you shouldn't put pants on horses. And an exception to that rule might test the validity, the viability of that rule. So there's one guy who puts pants on a horse. Yeah, always one guy.

Yeah, that guy. The horse trips, breaks a leg, and that horse has just shown that that rule is pretty valid, that you shouldn't put pants on a horse because that rule protects horses. Makes sense, way more sensical than the one that you subscribe to. But finally, we reach Chuck, the original version, the original meaning of the exception that proves the rule, and I think it's beautiful in its elegance. Well it is, and I guess this is how I used it with the mushrooms, and this is how I always took it to mean, which was the use of the phrase is basically that the presence

of an exception proves that a rule exists. Okay, okay, yeah, I could see how you, there's an interpretation of your mushroom statement that follows. I hate mushrooms, I hate them, but I like portabellas, that basically proves that I hate all other mushrooms if I only like one. Yeah, okay, so yeah, I think it's the phrasing of it that's throwing me off, because typically when you're using the exception that proves the rule correctly, an example of it is that free parking on Sundays, that's an exception, that suggests that there's a rule that all

the other days of the week you have to pay to park, there's an exception that's posted that proves that a rule exists, okay, no shirt, no shoes, no service. The fact that a store would feel obligated to post that sign suggests that elsewhere you can wear, go without shoes or a shirt. See I don't know if I buy that, because that to me doesn't mean that, that to me means that at some point someone came in there without a shirt and people complained, so they said well we gotta have a rule now. Right, but that, I don't think it says anything about other restaurants.

I disagree. So that's how you're supposed to use them, the reason why this is the original version is because it actually comes from medieval law. Yeah, it was, I believe there was a Latin phrase, I love reading Latin, exceptio probate regulum in casabas non acceptus, the exception confirms the rule and the case is not expected. Accepted. Accepted, what did I say, expected? I got a question for you, let's go back to no shirt, no shoes, no dice.

All right. So you're saying if you walk into a restaurant and it says no shirt, no shoes, no service, you would say, hey I didn't see a sign at that place, so that must mean you can go in there without a shirt on. If I stopped and thought about it, yes, that logically makes sense, but I don't think, I think you don't have to fixate on other restaurants, it can just mean that other places in public you could be without a shirt and a shoe and you're not going to be arrested for it or something like that.

Oh, okay. So like you got your shirt tied around your waist, your rollerblading, you stop to go in to get some food, you take off your rollerblades and you're now barefoot, but you got to put on that shirt and fish the flip flops out of your backpack, out of your fanny pack, excuse me. The point was that this was supposed to be more understandable and I think we made it at least 10 times less understandable. All right, that's perfect.

I think that means we should take a break. All right, let's take a break. I'm Mangesh Atikular and to be honest, I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. Lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention, because maybe there is magic in the stars, if you're willing to

look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, Major League Baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop, but just when I thought I had to handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world came crashing down. Situation doesn't look good. There is risk to father. And my whole view on astrology, it changed.

Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, that was fun. I think from here on out, it's going to be pretty easy going. I think it's smooth sailing ahead, because we move on to one of my favorite things that I said as a kid, that you don't say as much as an adult I don't feel like, but as a kid, when you smell something that's nasty, a lot of times you'll go, P-U.

You don't say that as an adult, huh? No, I say who farted, but I don't need to ask, because my daughter already had announced it. That's hilarious. P-U, as in the letters, P-U, but they don't even mean anything. They don't stand for anything. Right, yeah, which is pretty interesting. If you think about P-U, it's totally unnecessary.

You could just say that smells awful, but by adding P-U, it just puts a whole luster on it, and it really says that smells really bad. They don't stand for anything, but P and U, in that order, have a longstanding association with something offensive or disgusting, and it goes all the way back to Latin actually before Latin. There's a Latin word called puteo, which means I stink, which is probably not said that frequently back then. And then there's an even more ancient word from Proto-Indo-European language, which is

really, really old, P-U-H, P-U, that meant rotten or foul. So that word's been around a really long time, but again, P-U doesn't stand for anything. It's just a total coincidence that those two letters put together in the English language make the same sound that humans typically make when we encounter something gross and nasty. Yeah, you think of the word putrid as P-U, but it's all just coincidence. People say, phew, spell it however you want, P-Y-O-O or P-E-W, I guess even you can throw an H in there, P-H-E-W, and phew just came, P-U, and I think this is a great thing to

keep in your hip pocket. I think it's genuinely interesting that P-U is just a coincidence with the Latin and the Proto-Indo-European such that you could even drop some wolf bait at a dinner party and very quickly get out of the embarrassment by saying, well, here's an opportunity actually. Did you know, and then all of a sudden everyone's like, I don't even remember that you farted. Right. What's awesome too, P-U has only been in use since like the 1950s. Yeah, and it's in the OED, right?

It's in the Oxford English Dictionary, spelled P-E-W, and that's where P-U generally is thought to sort of come from. That's right. Phew. I like that one too, Chuck. I'm going to bring it back. Let's start. Okay.

I think we should, because it is really great. So too is the next phrase, Chuck, bury the hatchet. Bury the hatchet. Now, what does that mean? This is a really good one. This is something that you say if, like let's say you and I are having a big fight and that eventually we're- We're having a fight over what the exception that proves the rule means.

That proves the rule. We're at loggerheads. So we say, oh, God, we got to take a commercial break, which is when we do our best fighting. And then in that commercial break, I'm like, listen, man, no, actually you say it because you're the peacemaker. You say, let's just bury the hatchet here. This is a dumb thing to fight over. And I say, fine.

And then that's it. We move on. Everything's good from that point on because the hatchet has been buried. Yes. It's a symbol of getting over an argument, letting bygones be bygones. Right. And what's interesting is that it actually started out with a really literal meaning to the phrase, bury the hatchet.

And the whole thing comes from the Iroquois language family, better known by their own term, the Haudenosaunee, which means people of the longhouse. Iroquois was the French name for this group of people that included a number of tribes up in the Northeast, the Cayuga, Cherokee, Huron, Seneca, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga and Tuscarora. And their whole jam stretch from Lake Ontario over to Pennsylvania and New York and all the way up to Ontario and Quebec, which means that they were rubbing elbows with the French, British and the Dutch after the Europeans started to come over, which also means that

ideas were able to spread among this group, which is why we're talking about burying the hatchet today. That's right. And if you, and I think this is a very great story, according to Iroquois legend, there was a treaty for it by some members of this Iroquois family, and they actually got it wrong for many years. They placed it at 1451, but researchers at the University of Toledo go... Rockets.

Rockets. Almost said mud hens, not right. That's the minor league baseball team, yeah. They got together and used oral history and astronomy data and all sorts of great documentary resources and said, actually, hey, we know what it is. It was August 31st, 1142. So much earlier than it was believed, but in this treaty, it's very cool what happened. They got the five original signatories, which were the Cayuga, the Oneida, the Mohawk, the

Seneca, and the Onondaga, and they formed what was known as the, say it, Josh, Confederacy. Haudenosaunee. Haudenosaunee Confederacy. The French called it the Iroquois Confederacy, but it was an early model of democracy in action. Yeah. And if those University of Toledo scholars are right and the whole thing was established in 1142, that makes it one of the oldest continuously functioning democracies in the

world. Amazing. It's up there with the government of Iceland, the Swiss cantons, and, I said, continuously operating, it still functions as a government entity in upstate New York and issues passports. So it's been going since possibly 1142. And the whole reason we're talking about this is because at that meeting in 1142 of those five nations that came together to form a treaty, two of the leaders of this treaty meeting, I guess, Deganna Wida, who is a Huron, and Hiawatha, who is either a Mohawk

or an Onondaga, they said, Hey, everybody, just to kind of keep everything peaceful and on the level, let's all bury our weapons under this white pine tree and just leave them there during this meeting. And we can dig them up afterward, but they couldn't dig them up, Chuck. Could they? No, they thought this is a nice symbol, and it also has a side benefit that no one's going to get murdered probably. And a river, an underground river, came and washed them away.

And so they all said, Hey, this is like kismet. I don't even know what that word means, but this was meant to be. We buried, literally buried our weapons, and they were washed away underground. So this is a charmed treaty and a charmed joining of nations. So that whole practice spread pretty quickly among the Iroquois language family tribes, where if you were having a peace treaty meeting, the two groups would bury their weapons of war. And then, like I said, the proximity of the Europeans allowed ideas to spread, and this

was definitely one of them. The Brits, the French, the Dutch, later on the Americans, they all actually like buried weapons when they were engaged in peace treaty talks with different Native American tribes. And what was interesting is that some Native American tribes that had nothing to do with the Iroquois had never probably even met Iroquois or Haudenosaunee, I should say. The Americans buried the hatchet with those tribes as well. So in that sense, the Americans actually spread a Native American idea from one group to another group of Native Americans who'd never even met.

I find that fascinating. Totally. Down here in the Southeast with the Chickasaw. They were burying hatchets in Alabama and Mississippi. And yeah, it's pretty interesting how a custom can spread like that. The 1790s was basically when it became sort of a common phrase in North America among English speakers, and everyone still uses it, like people still say, bury the hatchet. Why not bury the Tomahawk?

Well, that's a good question. You would think that a Tomahawk would be a little more correct, but the Tomahawk was, I believe, Algonquin, when we talked about the Algonquin Hotel recently, right? Yeah, by Hyatt. That's right. Oh, man, this is very symbolic. It was not an Iroquois word at all, so that's why. Right, no.

And apparently the Seneca had a word, gajiwa, so you would probably more accurately say bury the gajiwa. Buried the gajiwa. So there you go, bury the hatchet, literal stuff. How about the next one, Chuck? I love this one. It's short and sweet, and it has Shakespeare. That's right, and the phrase is in a pickle.

Yeah, which means you're in a tight spot, a tough situation. You got a problem. There's a difficulty over your head, something like that, right? That's right, and it always struck me as odd, and I think I might have even mentioned this before, that you can be in a pickle, in a jam, and in a stew, and it's all kind of the same thing, and it's all food related. It is, but all of it means you've got a problem. You're in a tight spot.

That's right. That's what I'm going to define it as. You're in a tight spot. We're going to leave it with that. And it was Shakespeare that came up with this one. Yeah, so you mentioned Shakespeare, the Great Play of the Tempest. There's a line in the play from Trinculo to Alonzo. I have been in such a pickle since I saw you last.

I fear me will never out of my bones, I shall not fear fly blowing. Very nice. Shall I translate? Please. So Trinculo is saying he's been totally trashed since the last time he saw Alonzo, and he's drunk so much that he's concerned it's never going to get it out of his system, and that even after he dies, the flies won't even touch his corpse because it'll be so preserved by all the alcohol that he's drunk.

He was in a pickle, which it doesn't quite make sense. What does that still mean is in a pickle, but it does make sense when you trace it back a little further. Shakespeare actually borrowed this phrase, introduced it to English, but he borrowed the sentiment and the phrase from the Dutch, who had their own little phrase, in de Pechelzitten. For Dutch, that is remarkably readable. It really is. There's no rando J somewhere.

No. It's just all pretty straightforward. So in this sense though, Pechel doesn't mean the pickle, it means the pickle brine. Yeah. So, I mean, this also has to do with if you say you're drunk, you were pickled. That's sort of along the similar lines of what that means, right, that you're sort of soaking in that pickle brine. Exactly.

You're preserved by the alcohol, just like a pickle would be by the brine. Exactly. But the thing is, is that's not what in a pickle means, in a pickle means in a tight spot. So at some point, 100, 200 years after Shakespeare, Samuel Pepus, I think that's how you say his name, I've only ever seen it written, but he was famous for his diary. And one of the entries in his diary in 1660, he says that his house is in a pickle, meaning that's in a sorry state in bad shape because it was under construction. And so Samuel Pepus was the one who kind of took that term and ended up setting it free,

letting it evolve into being in a hard place, a bad state. Amazing. And you know what? I actually get to follow up on the Shakespeare episode when I was shouting out my great English professor who translated just like you just translated, somebody wrote in, you can always count on a listener, someone who was at Park Hall, the English building around the same town I was, said, I betcha it was John Vance. And I looked him up and lo and behold, John Vance, former professor, Department of English,

now retired and writing novels. Oh yeah, what kind of novels? It's a red article from like four or five years ago, writing parody novels based on his professorship. Erotic parody novels. I don't think so. But she said that she tried and get the word to him that I was shouting him out, but I just decided to do it on the show.

So. Yes. John Vance, if you're out there and you hear this, you were one of the best English teachers I ever had. Very nice, Chuck. I don't think there's anything we can do but follow that with a break because that's so great stuff. Absolutely.

I don't believe in astrology, but from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life. In India, it's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention because maybe there is magic in the stars if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast.

Tantric curses, Major League Baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop. But just when I thought I had a handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world came crashing down. It doesn't look good, there is risk to father. And my whole view on astrology, it changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, so we got a few more to drop on your head. And one is one that we actually messed up, and that is the old slippery slope, which I think a lot of people over the years, and I had heard it before you said it, have attributed to a Supreme Court justice, but that's not the case, right? No, I couldn't see exactly where it came from or even what justice has used it when, but I did see it goes at least back to the 19th century. I think what's more interesting about it, Chuck, is it's actually a logical fallacy, and it has its own name, the slippery slope argument.

And basically, everybody who's walking around using the phrase slippery slope is using it correctly. It just basically means if we do something, take one or two steps, we're entering a dangerous situation that could end in catastrophe just from taking that first or second step. Yeah, it's a phrase that I have always loathed. I think if you say something is a slippery slope, it's never like, hey, if your kid's hanging out with the kid smoking by the dumpster, it's a slippery slope and they could end up smoking too.

That makes sense. It always is some really far off extreme where you say then your kid's going to end up on heroin one day. If they hung out with the kid smoking by the dumpster, it's always taken to this really far extreme, and it seems like it's used a lot in political arguments where just the dumbest things are said about if we allow gay marriage, then what's to stop us from marrying our pets and things like that? It's so infuriating.

It is, and you're right. I think you kind of nailed it. It goes from, we could try this to catastrophic problems, and the reason it does that is because the slippery slope argument is used to scare somebody else into agreement. That's right. It's basically saying like, hey, this new thing that you're talking about sounds great on its face, but do you realize that if we do that, the world will literally end and the other person goes, oh, well, I don't want the world to end, so we should probably not

do that thing I was suggesting. That's right, and what the problem is as far as the logical fallacy goes is you are predicting an outcome that cannot be predicted. It's literally just sort of making something up to scare people into submission of not doing anything. Yeah, there's a guy named James Graff who wrote an article about it in the week in 2013, and he said the reason why it just doesn't make sense is because he said there's no reason to reject doing one thing just because it might open the door for some undesirable extremes,

permitting A does not suspend our ability to say, but not B, and certainly not Z down the line. And he also points out something I think is really important too, that if you, with the slippery slope argument, the whole point is to say all these terrible things can happen, and if you just focus on that, you're never going to do anything. That's right, scared into an action. Exactly, nice. And the thing about the slippery slope argument is the more you look for it, the more you

see it everywhere. Yeah. I mean, it is everywhere, and once you realize what you're actually, what's actually being done to your psyche, it's kind of annoying at that point. Agreed. Yeah, so you're right to loathe it, I think, I'm with you on that. All right. So moving on to a phrase that I always very stupidly assumed was French, qu'est-sur-à-sur-à,

the great song, Whatever Will Be Will Be, for some reason it always sounded French in my head, but now that I'm looking at it, QUE is clearly like some variation of Italian or Spanish. I don't know why I always thought it was French. It just sounded French to me. It does sound French, you're absolutely right. Other people think Italian maybe. Sure.

What's interesting is it's both, it's also neither, and it's gibberish, it turns out, in both languages. But the upshot of the meaning of qu'est-sur-à-sur-à is that the way it's translated is Whatever Will Be Will Be, and it's a reminder to kind of take like a relaxed attitude toward life, life as it comes, accept it and enjoy it, you can't really predict the future. Don't try, you'll just fail, that kind of thing. That's right. And it comes from the Hitchcock film, The Man Who Knew Too Much, and it was sung by

Doris Day very famously in that movie, became a big, big hit for Doris Day. But it was written by Jay Livingston and Ray Evans, who were very, I don't know about how famous they were, but within the industry, well-regarded as kind of pumping out these big hits during the heyday of this sort of songwriting. What was the, we did a podcast on it. Tim Pan Alley? Tim Pan Alley. Was this the thing I thought Tim Pan Alley was way earlier?

No, I don't think so. Okay. Well, these guys would be Tim Pan Alley all the way then, agreed. I might be wrong. But they had big hits with Mona Lisa, Men Have Known You, and Silver Bell's, The Great Christmas Song, the theme to Bonanza, another great song, the theme to Mr. Ed, a horse is a horse, of course, of course. Yeah.

Angie Livingston, one of the writers, was the voice of Mr. Ed, too. He did Mr. Ed. I always heard a rumor that they put peanut butter in Mr. Ed's mouth to make him flap his gums like that. And he hated peanut butter. No, I bet a horse loves peanut butter. So they wrote this song for the Hitchcock movie, but they actually kind of stole the phrase, not actually kind of, they definitely stole the phrase from another movie, The Barefoot

Contessa. I'd like to say inspired, I think they do, too. But in that movie, Ava Gardner's character, her family motto is inscribed on her Italian via villa. And it's K. Sera, Sera. But they spelled it C-H-E. And what's interesting is the guy who wrote and directed The Barefoot Contessa, Joseph Mankowitz, who I think that's the guy that they made Mank about, right?

That's one and the same. Yeah. He apparently did his homework because K. Sera, Sera did originate as a family motto, not in Italy, but with the first Earl of Bedford in England in the 16th century, interestingly enough. Right. So put a pin in that. Livingston and Evans are inspired enough by this phrase to immediately write the song

and then wait a couple of weeks for Hitchcock to come calling because I guess they want to make it seem like they really took their time with it and came up with a true original for Hitchcock for Hitch. Right. Yeah. And I don't understand this response from Hitchcock. Is this what he really said? I don't quite get it.

His quote was, gentlemen, I didn't know what kind of song I wanted. And that is the kind of song I want. Okay. Just a little clumsy, I guess. It is a little clumsy. You could also take it as like a subtle dig. Oh, yeah? I could, believe me.

The movie, the song was a big hit. The movie was a big hit. Like I said, Doris Day, who apparently did not like it at first, but it's a song that's really closely associated with her because she sang it over and over in performances over the years, but it was a number two hit in the US, number one in Britain, and one best original song in 1956 at the Oscars. Right. So, huge song.

Why is it gibberish is the big question that we face now, right? Right. So, the Earl of Bedford, the motto, K-Sara-Sara, C-H-E-S-A-R-A-S-A-R-A, it is Italian and it does mean in Italian, what will be, will be, okay? So that's what the words mean, but it's not grammatically correct, right? No, it should be K-Sara-Sara. And the reason why is because K means what and Sara-Sara means will be, will be, but what is almost like if you were saying what like in English as a response to somebody

calling your name, will be, will be, it makes about that much sense grammatically, whereas if you say K-Sara-Sara, you're saying the things that will be, will be, and that makes much more sense. Right, but they changed it, Livingston and Evans changed it to a more sort of Spanish sounding thing by spelling it Q-U-E-S-E-R-A-S-E-R-A, but that's not grammatically correct either, right? So, they still messed it up. But for the same reason, because Italian and Spanish are both very closely related romance

languages, you should say lo-K-Sara-Sara, same thing, the things that will be, will be. It just doesn't make sense. And again, it makes sense, but it makes sense in the way that like the Earl of Bedford probably hired an English translator who got his hands on an Italian dictionary, looked up the word what, and looked up the word for what will be, will be, and then said that, didn't do any of his grammatical research. Neither did Livingston and Evans, but it doesn't matter, apparently. Agreed.

And that, along with our last one, which we're going to talk about in a sec, begs the question, are two that I think are often, begs the question certainly is often said incorrectly and people often also jump on it and say, you know, you really mean raises the question, not begs the question. I don't hear as many people when someone says K-Sara-Sara saying actually that's grammatically incorrect. It's true, for sure. So just a little word of friendly advice from your older friend here, like correcting someone

isn't super cool, but telling someone a cool story about an origin is another way to do it in a more tactful way. Like instead of saying K-Sara-Sara is grammatically incorrect, what you could say is like, you know K-Sara-Sara, there's a cool story behind this, and you're still sort of correcting them, but in a gentler way. Yeah, and if you're starting out with wrong, like you really have some work to do, go back to the drawing board. So thank you, by the way, I needed to hear that as well, along with the listeners you

were speaking to. Because we've said begs the question before, and I know that you've even self-corrected and said, I mean raises the question, but it's sort of one of those things that over the years people have, you know, mistranslated begs the question to where everyone gets it now. Yeah, but the way that everybody uses it, which is wrong, it makes sense, which is it's a statement that raises a question. And an example is everyone looking over the menu begs the question, what's everyone going

to order? Right? Sure. That is not at all what begs the question really means. But because so many people use it that way now, that is what it means. But that means there's also an original meaning too, that actually is closer to correct, or at the very least worth mentioning. Yeah, and also the answer is always French onion soup, so people shouldn't even be asking

anything. I don't know, I've had some bad French onion soup, man. What? Yeah, I love French onion soup. Like you could put a salt lick in with some beef bullion cube, and I would probably like it. I still had bad French onion soup. No, what does that mean?

They just didn't get a good crust on that cheese on top or what? No, like the taste was rank. Like something bad happened. But by the way, I've got to shout somebody out, Chuck. We had a listener named Ryan, I believe. And Ryan is a chef who wrote in and said, hey man, don't give up on your homemade beef stock. You left out a step.

And he basically said, you want to reduce it by half. And I was like, that's exactly right. That's 100% right. The beef stock, once you make the beef stock and you have it done, I immediately froze it and it was super watery and tasteless. And he said, no, you want to reduce it by half, you concentrate it and then use that. And my hats off to him for the rest of my life. So thanks a lot, Ryan, I believe, who wrote in and let me know about that.

I had beef bone broth for lunch from my friends at the Oh So Good company. I'm hoping to hear this and send me a free broth because it's expensive. Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. What's the name of it? Oh, so good. You get it shipped, frozen, and it's really, really good quality broth. I'll take some, too. And I was right.

It was Ryan Thompson who wrote in to let me know about that. Awesome. That's good, especially, well, never mind, but we just missed, we just had Thanksgiving and I was going to say if you're going to make your turkey stock, but by this time, when is this going to come out? Mid-December. All right. Well, you might make another turkey.

Sure. Reduce by half. Yes. Reduce by half. We're going to make T-shirts that say that. Can we get to Aristotle, though? Yes, excellent idea. So we raise Aristotle because he was the one that, well, I guess raised the original meaning

of begs the question. And it's a little bit of circular logic that he pointed out that sometimes people use, right? That's right. He called it Petitio Principi. Come on. It's close enough to Italian that you could do it like that. Petitio Principi, which is basically the use of an argument that uses the end point as

proof itself. And was this your example with ice cream? How could you tell? Well, because I've never heard of Superman ice cream and it just sounds like something you would say. Apparently, it's Midwestern. Okay. Neapolitan.

No, it's very colorful. It's gaudy. It's in garish. It's so colorful. Oh, it's not. And the flavors are not Neapolitan flavors. Okay. I thought it meant it was divided into three different flavors.

No, no. It's all swirled together. I've never heard it. And it's very pretty. Yeah. So Superman ice cream, a good example would be Superman ice cream is the best ice cream because it's the best. Right.

That would be Petitio Principi, which is that you're using the point you're trying to make as evidence of the point. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but people do that a lot. And Aristotle said, nine, no more. Yeah, the only time you can do that is if you're trying to be funny and just say like, you know, the original Ghostbusters is the best because it's the best. And then you're making a joke. Unless you're eight.

And I think that's who Aristotle was really targeting with this. So here's where it gets somewhat interesting, although I also thought the other was interesting. But in Latin, Petitio Principi means request the principle, which means Aristotle's use of it, assuming the initial point. Right. Apparently this was just like a bad translation, right? Yes. Absolutely terrible bad translation by some 16th century Europeans who said, oh, request

the principle. Well, request also kind of means beg in English. Sort of. So the principle, we could just substitute the question for that. And so Petitio Principi in English now means beg the question, even though it makes no sense, especially when you realize that it's supposed to mean request the principle or assuming the initial point. That's right.

And that's it. That it's as easy as that. And as a matter of fact, it's as easy to understand as the popular use of begs the question as like a statement that raises a question. It's just not explained. People don't explain it unless you use it wrong and you just happen to be near a prescriptivist who's bonkers. Yeah.

And not to yuck the prescriptivist yum, because there are people that are very defensive of words and language is somewhat sacred. I'm not one of them, but if that's your thing, just don't be obnoxious about it. We need to do an episode on prescriptivist versus descriptivist. I agree. So do you want to end with this little anecdote about translations? Because you can make a case that the translation of begs the question is one of the worst of all time into English.

Yeah. This is pretty fun. The great Jimmy Carter, former US president in 1981 went to Japan on a visit and was getting big laughs at this anecdote. He told about it this small Methodist college out in the country. And I think laughs so much that he was like, well, what's going on here? And so as a translator, why was everyone laughing so hard at this story that was that funny? And what did the translator say?

The translator said that his exact words to the public were, President Carter told a funny story, everyone must laugh. And the Japanese went wild. You could only do that to Jimmy Carter. I know. I know. I'm sure he thought that was hilarious, too. Of course.

He's what a great guy. He was a great guy. Is he still around? He's still going. He, I believe, did Rosalind pass away? I think so, yes. No, she's still alive, too. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Sorry, guys. She's 95 and he's 98, my lord. But yeah, they still go to Braves games and do stuff. I think he still teaches Sunday school and all that stuff. Very cool. Yeah. This is an episode on Jimmy Carter, everybody.

We should do one on Jimmy Carter. Yeah, why not? He's definitely worth an episode. You got anything else about Jimmy Carter or phrases? No, but a good listener mail that kind of dovetails by accident. Okay. Well, hold on. Hold on.

Since Chuck started talking about listener mail, obviously it's time for listener mail. Yeah, I didn't even plan this. This is perfect. Hey, guys, love the show. In the typewriter episode, you were making suggestions on license plates and Chuck suggested balls out, B-A-L-Z-O-U-T. That might be the right amount of vulgar, but the assumption is that balls out refers to testicles.

That is not true at all. The true origin of the saying is way more fun and not at all vulgar. Many machines use a centrifugal, I hate that word, governor to regulate the speed that something is spinning and old timey ones, you had two weighted balls on the end of sticks spinning around. You've probably seen this before, right? No. No, you would.

If you saw it, you'd recognize it. Okay. It's like two balls spinning in a circle. I mean, I can imagine that, but I can't place it under the hood of a car. It's not in a car. It's more like a machine in a factory or something. Oh, centrifugal force. There are classic details to include on cartoon machinery, and you would know it if you saw

it. See there? The faster the machine is spinning, the further the two balls stick out to the side. So when a machine is running at a high speed, it's called running balls out because the balls are sticking straight out from the sides of the governor. That's awesome. So in my mind, balls out is a fantastic custom license plate, especially if the driver tends to have a heavy foot.

Again, love the show. Get the good stuff coming, peace from Ben. Peace, Ben. Thank you for that. That was a great one. I still cannot imagine it in any kind of machine. I don't know what he's talking about, but I understand what he means, right? Just Google centrifugal governor.

Okay, I will. If you want to be like Ben and say peace, you can email us. Send it to StuffPodcast at iHeartRadio.com. If you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Munga Shatikler, and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to believe.

You can find it in Major League Baseball, international banks, K-pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me, and my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes, because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.