Stuff You Should Know - Parasocial Relationships: That Podcaster is Your Friend!

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

Parasocial relationships are fascinating and it turns out Chuck knows what it's like from both sides. Listen in today to your old friends. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle. Hi, Jan here in Kansas City, Missouri. On the podcast, the middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'll take calls live every week, elevating the voices of Americans who are so important when it comes to whos in power and what gets done. My name is Venkat, I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia. Listen to the middle with Jeremy Hobson on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mo Raka, and I'm excited to announce season four of my podcast, Mo Bituaries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you about the most fascinating people and things who are no longer with us, from famous figures who died on the very same day, to the things I wish would die, like buffets.

Listen to MoPituaries with MoRaka on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too and this is Stuff You Should Know, the little, close to home edition. Yeah, right. In two ways.

One is that as podcastersters we are on one end of the parasocial relationship relationship. Correct, yeah. And the other is like I have these, I don't know if you do or not, but I have parasocial relationships of my own with podcasts. I don't have any because I'm saying. Right. Oh, I'm totally kidding. I don't think I have any. No, I don't have any. I think what it is,

has nothing to say to me. My imagination is just not that vivid. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? Because I think for this to set, you have to be able to imagine yourself like in the room with the people you're listening to for example or what you would do after they stop filming the TV show or something like that. Like any you're big into comedy, any of

your big comedian people that you love you know never think like God we would be friends if we knew each other. No, I really don't. I don't. I feel like deficient because of it, but I genuinely do not have any parasocial relationship that I can bring to mind. And I don't remember ever having that. I think I just assumed that they wouldn't like me, rather than they would like me, which makes it much harder to have a parasocial relationship with somebody. You just assume you wouldn't get along this very well. Well, then by some estimates, you're part of the 49% of people that Americans that is, that do not have pair of social relationships.

And if you're yelling at us right now because we haven't defined it yet, just a pair of social relationship is a, it's like when you listen to a podcast and you think, I know those guys, they're like my friends. We would be so, we would be such good friends in real life. It's a one-sided relationship between a consumer of a thing, a fan of a thing, and a public figure.

Yeah, and one of those papers you sent me, I saw it described rather aptly as a one-sided intimacy at a distance. Yeah. And in our go-go, be normal as much as you can type society. That sounds a little like off base, a little weird, a little out there. To some people, I should say. To others, it's like, well, yeah, of course, this is normal life. But we should say like there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It can go wrong, as we'll see.

But at its base, having a parasocial relationship does not make you a loser, a loner, social misfit, a weirdo, it actually makes you slightly healthier emotionally and actually in my opinion. Yeah and as we'll talk about studies bear that out that it's you know I think they they put it it generally about three to five percent of the time it can go south and we'll talk about that kind of stuff when it becomes obsessive and stuff like that. Stan. But yeah, for the other 95 to 98% of people, it actually provides quite a benefit because it makes someone feel good

and it makes people laugh a lot of times. And I feel like comedy a lot of times is what you associate more. I'm sure you can appear with social relationships with like Peter Jennings or something. Sure. Or Dan Rather, I'm sure you can appear with social relationships with like Peter Jennings or something. Sure. Or Dan Rather. I'm sure that happens. It would be harder, though, as we'll see.

You generally think of it in terms of like either a podcast or a TV show when you when you would sit around and you would think about a which friend am I or which sex in the city character. You're such a Miranda. Right. Like that's the kind of thing that we're talking about here. about which friend am I or which sex in the city character. You're such a Miranda. Like that's the kind of thing that we're talking about here when people identify so much that it's like a real relationship. Yes.

And I wanna say, I am in that very unusual and unique position as are you and as are most of my ancestors, right? Atolium Miranda. Actually. I totally am, Miranda. Actually, know what's the other one's name who is married to Kyle McLaughlin? I feel like I identify more with her. Yeah, Charlotte. Charlotte, yeah, I'm a total Charlotte.

What I was going to say though is I'm in the unique position of being on the opposite side of a parasocial relationship. That's a very rare place to be. And I can tell you that I do enjoy hearing about that. Like when we're at live shows and people tell us like where they think of us as like their friends or whatever, I always have to hear that kind of thing. Yeah, me too. Yeah.

So I don't want to, I don't engage with them myself, but when yeah, yeah, they are thrust upon me. I'm like, oh, yeah, I love that Yeah, and we feel the same way Generally and most times when we meet listeners who are awesome like that we we if we did know each other There's a good chance we might be friends. Yeah, I think that's another thing too is I think that's kind of like that that Weirdo view of it, like the irony of it is there's so far off base that like if they ever actually did meet the person in real life, they would be horribly crushed and maybe even mocked. I mean, at least from our experience, most people who do come up and tell us that they

think of us as friends, do you seem like people we would probably hang out within real life Totally there's also and I'll talk about this a little bit I guess later, but I'm in a situation where a lot of the podcast that I consume or comedy podcasts where I do Kind of know the person. Oh, okay, but that's a quasi-paras social relationship because I find myself I say quasi-appearance social relationship because I find myself thinking I'm better friends with them than I am. When in fact they are just industry colleagues that are loose pals perhaps. But I think like, oh yeah, me and Scott Alchemyn

are like great friends because we have so much income. Yeah, he does not think that. And Scott's a great guy, super nice. He's always been very nice. I'll be on a shows occasionally. We both worked with him a little bit. But we're not great friends, even though I feel like we are because I listen to so much of his stuff.

OK, I'm glad you did. I think someone I was going to ask you who you have para-social relationships with. But I feel like quasi-para-social relationship is very niche. Yeah, probably so. So let's begin at the beginning. These things haven't been around forever,

mostly because they're a product of media communications. They would not exist otherwise, because without media, you would actually be interacting with this person face to face. And that's the big rub of the whole thing, is that other person is on the other side of a screen. They're in your headphones.

They're not there physically, but the way that they present themselves to you tricks us into becoming friends with them or having an affinity for them just as you would if you met them in real life. And the whole thing is traced back to a couple of sociologists named Donald Horton and Richard Wall, who back in the 50s started noticing that people would actually talk back to their TV and that they as sociologists,

they said this is interesting, that's kind of unusual. And probably new. Because people don't understand TV. And I think I'm sure it existed before in radio, but as we'll see, media has added to itself, added to itself, added to itself over the generations over the last half century or so, to make it more likely that you're going to have a parasocial relationship with somebody in media

and a deeper one, too. But the whole thing started with TV and people shouting at it. And what they coined was a term called parasocial interactions. Yeah, and that's, I think TV also was, all of a sudden you had a couple of other ingredients to the recipe that could spawn a parasocial relationship, which is repeated consistent faces that you're seeing.

It's not like, you know, going to a movie which you could do before the, you know, 1956. That person being in your house in your living room every week or even every night was a different thing. And they were talking to you. They were looking at your face and there were new kinds of media personalities that they hadn't seen before, which is like

Game Show host, Talk Show host, newscasters, people looking into the camera and talking to you, the home audience. And that changed things. And they were fascinated by what they called this relationship between what they dubbed Persona, who are, you know, the Dan Rathers or whatever. I don't know why Dan Rathers so on the tip of my brain. What's he even doing these days? He's riding and stuff, right? I don't know. It's been a while.

I've heard from him in a while. He hasn't called me back. I think he's pretty active on social media and stuff. Anyway, it was a new thing where there were people in your room, these personas talking to your family, and it was, there was a lot of small talk that had never been around before, like on the news. When you, you know, newscasters are, they've, we've talked about it in the weather person

episode. Right. The change to like the more familiar banter and small talk and, you know, let's talk about our lives a little bit even, all of a sudden people are being let in. Yes, and that's a product of the whole thing. Like, that's purposeful. And what the whole thing creates is the illusion

of intimacy. And that is... And I disagree with, by the way. What, that is an illusion? Well, yeah, I mean, that's what Horton and Wal called it. I think it's a type of intimacy. Okay, so what would you call it?

Intimacy, one way intimacy, I guess. Yeah, I'll agree with you on that for sure. All right. I think these guys were just like, what the heck is going on? So yeah, it was in 1950s. Right. They weren't. Yeah.

So we'll just call it this type of intimacy or one-sided intimacy. And like I was saying, they purposely cultivated this as they started not wall and hortin' but TV producers found out very quickly that people would write letters to their favorite newscaster or their favorite soap opera character or something like that. That was kind of new. Again, people would yell at the radio or they would listen to a specific news announcer on the radio or something like that. That happened before, but that whole thing of being able to look at you, of being able

to talk to you directly seemingly. Again, it triggers something in us that radio could never do. Yeah. And like you said, I think I cut you off. Again, it triggers something in us that radio could never do. Yeah, and like you said, I think I cut you off. You were talking about the fact that it wasn't an accident. They worked on this. They were told to look directly into the camera lens, and they were told to make small talk and have friendly banter

between each other and to have a friendly tone. It was all engineered to get people to watch you more. It wasn't engineered, so pair of social relationships would form, and to have a friendly tone, it was all engineered to get people to watch you more. It wasn't engineered, so pair of social relationships would form, but that was a byproduct of them trying to get their game show host or their newscaster to connect with an audience. Right. So some other things they would do is characters would be boiled down into kind of thumbnail sketches of a person.

So you have like Joey who's kind of like the Ditsy one or Gracie Gracie Allen was the original I think kind of Dits on TV and When she entered the room or when Joey entered a scene you knew something like Hilarious was gonna happen because they were just so Ditsy and in that sense you know Joey like you don't know Matt LaBlanc at all. You know Joey, the character that Matt LaBlanc is playing, you're doing. Exactly. You know he's probably going to say something like that. He's going to go after some girl or something like that.

You can predict his actions, which means that you have some sort of relationship with him and that you recognize his personality and you accept that and you can predict it and that in and of itself is a level of intimacy Yeah, and you don't even necessarily have to identify with that particular character I think in the case of something like friends or sex in the city a lot of people just said hey This is like my group of friends and Joey is like my friend Josh and Chandler is like my other friend and that kind of thing. I guess wait who I'm like who?

I was talking about a different job. Okay. I said you're like Joey but you're not like any of the friends. No, no, I'm not. Maybe a bit of a Rachel I don't know. I kind of have to be a Rachel. I don't know We're going with friends in the sex in the city for the rest of the episode, huh? I Guess so another thing that we did on our own very show was that they did back then to engineer this kind of connection was

call-in shows Reading fan mail on the air stuff like that interacting with the audience Which is obviously ramped up in the day of social media, which we'll get to, because that's a whole different Bologna X these days. Yes. And one of the reasons that Horton and Wall created a new term for what the person is,

who the person is having a pair of social relationship with Persona or Persona, is because that's not, again, it's not a real person. Even if they're not playing a character and the newscaster is playing himself, the newscaster, he's not talking about the horrible fight he and his wife had the day before, and he didn't get much sleep, and he's not really feeling good. He's never going to bring that up. All he's ever going to show you is at least a neutral mood, if not a positive mood.

And so after seeing that time and time and time again, you develop an idealized vision of this person, this persona, that can't possibly hold up in reality. And in that sense, that makes the parasocial relationship that much more seductive because what that persona can offer you is an idealized friend. Dave helped us out with this and he said that the cheery game show host has never has a bad day and snaps at you and they're always there. I would caveat that with accept Alex Trebek but for the most part all the other ones wouldn't. They're always pleasant. They're always like nice to be around and they're always making you feel good about yourself. That's one of the reasons parod social relationships can be so strong. Should we take a break? Yes.

All right, we'll be right back. Our first call is Mary in Lexington, Kentucky. Mary, welcome to the middle. Hello, and thanks for having me. If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle. Hi, my name is Venkat. I'm calling you for Atlanta Georgia.

On the new podcast, The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'm live every week taking your calls and focusing on Americans in the middle who are so important politically but are often ignored by the media. I did a lifetime democratic voter, however I was raised by moderate Republicans from Michigan. Creating space for a civil conversation about the most contentious issues we face, from climate change to artificial intelligence, from abortion rights to gun rights. I consider myself to be conservative, cis-colleen, but politically independent. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. I'm Mo Raka, and I'm excited to announce season 4 of my podcast, Mo Bituaries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you about the most fascinating people and things who are no longer with us. From famous figures who died on the very same day, to the things I wish would die, like buffets. People actually take little tastes along the way with their fingers. Oh, they do.

Oh no, I'm so sorry. Do you need a minute? This is the only interview where I've needed a spit bucket. I'm so sorry. We'll tell you about the singer who helped define cool. And the sports world's very first superstar. To call Jim Thorpe the greatest athlete in American history is not a stretch because no athlete before

a sincestown what he did. Listen to Mobituaries with Moroca on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton back with a new season of my podcast, You and Me Both. On this show, I'll be talking to people I admire about many things, including one of my favorite subjects, Getting Things Done. We'll hear from folks and positions of power like Democratic House leader Hakeem Jeffries, but also writers and

actors, community organizers really anyone who shows up every day and keeps doing the work. There's so much out there to distract us, but all of my guests bring tremendous passion and commitment, an ability to block out the noise, and I should probably warn you lots of sports metaphors. You stay calm and focused on releasing the ball, getting it to a receiver, and hopefully getting it into the end zone on behalf of the American people. So join me for this conversation and more.

Listen to you and me both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so let's talk about this. We got the setup with Horton and Wall, and then since then, over the decades, things have been pretty interesting as we've moved toward social media, which again, we'll get to, but the reason that we form bonds, it sounds like it might be a little weird even though we explain that it's quite natural. But it's evolutionary in nature. We've talked before plenty about

the facts that human beings are hardwired to be social with one another because it helps. And they're survival. The ability to read someone's tone or read someone's face was very valuable in the age of Tuck Tuck when they would approach like a new people or something like a new persona. And also the fact that it made Tuck Tuck feel good to have a friend. So we are hardwired to be social with one another to pick up on social cues and to have wins. And we do that. We pick up on the social cues largely from facial expressions and tone of voice, both of which come through loud and clear in TV close-ups, right? Exactly. For sure. So what's happening, and again, I don't think this was originally,

I mean, no one invented TV to do this to people. It was like a surprise, but once people figured out it was going on, they exploited it as quickly as they could. But TV accidentally tricks you into thinking you're interacting with a really great person and that they're interacting with you and they kind of like you, so you like them back. Right, because your lizard brain, your evolutionary brain, doesn't know the difference between Dan Rather talking to your face on the television and Dan Rather really being in front of you in a Starbucks. You don't really know the difference.

All you know is going back to your brain goes back to Tuk Tuk stays and you see a kind face looking you in the eyeball telling you something interesting or funny or what have you. Right. Exactly. So I like you said I'm in the 49% that like just don't necessarily feel this way. And the reason why not everyone does this and that other people do it stronger, more strongly than others, supposedly has to do with your natural levels of empathy, that the more you're able to take other people's perspectives onto your own, and just kind of imagine yourself in their shoes

or understand their struggles, or just acknowledging the fact that they probably are struggling in some way, or you're more likely to vibe on somebody in real life and on TV as well, or in social media as we'll see. I think you can be highly empathetic though. I can't be. It's just a- To people that you know no one loves. No.

So maybe that's a difference. No, I mean, I can't be a stranger to you for sure. I just don't know there's some- Well, that's true. I didn't mean it like that. I just meant more. I see where you- I see the delineation in your true. I didn't mean it like that. I just meant more. I see where you I see the delineation in your mind. But that's the thing. I'm not aware of it. It feels like there's a short circuit between you know what I'm capable of like in with people in real life and people not in real

life. Like there's a disconnect between those two. And I'm not sure what it is or where it comes from, but I don't know. Because I do, I like to think I'm fairly empathetic too. Yeah, for sure. I wanna be. I thought you were saying you weren't so. You were. Well, I mean, also like, there's not a lot of like podcasts you listen to every day and stuff, is there?

No, but I mean, like I watch a lot of TV too, and I don't have like a parosocial relationship with Jason Voorhees or anything. I don't, oh boy, that reminds me, I just saw a very funny old Camille Magiani bit about, well, you can look it up about Jason and Freddie. It's probably not something I wanna say in the air. Okay.

But it's very funny. I want to know. Well, just Google it. Okay. I'm getting away with it. I'm going through the show. How about that? I think I can summarize it best by saying that Freddie and the movie Freddie versus Jason

was racist at one point in one of his little Freddie lines because he talked about a person with color in a made sort of a Fredy quip about it. And people, he was like, and people in the audience groaned. And he's like, really, you know, it's okay that you're murdering children. Like when you made a racist jab, like, that's when we're not on team Fredy anymore. It's pretty funny. Anyway, where was that going with that, though? What are you talking about?

We were, yeah, we were moving on that like. Uh oh, oh. I know what I was gonna say is that I don't really have these with TV people. Podcasting specific is where I get my pair of social relationships. Yeah, and I'm, yeah, I, like I guess, I don't know. Like I would say that like I listen to a lot of Terry Groves

and I've never been like Terry and I would be great friends or you know I like her I think she's amazing and think she's one of the best interviewers walking around right now but again there's just that like she is on the radio she's in Philadelphia like I've I've never met her I'll never meet her probably you're like I sit outside her house like those those right and she would not come to the door. I know. Those qualifications like mean something to me subliminally that keep me from having a parasocial relationship.

I think this, we're gonna hammer this out one way or another by the end of this episode. So there's something called the compensation theory. And that is the idea that people who get in parasocial, or who are more inclined to get in a parasocial relationship, are compensating for a lack of real relationships in their life. The, like you sort of mentioned earlier, the trope of the lonely person who's socially awkward

and doesn't have these relationships in real life. So they dream up a relationship with Conan O'Brien or whatever. And studies don't bear this out. Studies have shown that that's not the case. It's just not true. And in fact, they've shown the opposite that people who are more extroverted

and more likely to score higher on tests for interpersonal skills are more likely to form these relationships, which it tracks for me. It makes sense. If you're more likely to be that way in a real relationship and in real life, then it seems like you would be more likely to do that pair of socially. Yes, but it is controversial. There are definitely two schools of thought. One is that this is inherently a dangerous thing to do socially for yourself and for whoever the object of your parasocial relationship is.

And then other people are like, no, you guys are, there's no data to back this up. But that whole compensation theory, there's a model that attempts to explain it called the addiction absorption model. And it basically says that it says that people who seek out parasocial relationships essentially are get like you were saying like they're awkward so they have to go find it somewhere else because there's an inherent human drive to make connections. So they're just making them with people that will never meet in real life that they kind of idolized. And by doing that they

absorb the person's life, they absorb of idolized and by doing that they absorb The person's life they absorb information about the person's life right and Effectively get addicted to it because it feels good to be close to that person and that like any addiction They develop a tolerance to a certain level of absorption so they start getting further and further and deeper and deeper along into this addiction of their favorite person. And one day find themselves standing outside of Terry Gross's house. I hope you shall come to the door. That's like you will eventually reach that level if you follow this path long enough and that anybody, anyone who's engaged in a pair of social relationship relationship is at risk of becoming that person that's stalking Terry Gross. I'm sorry, Terry Gross. I know.

This is just work in, so I'm going with it. And that is one camp. They've got the models, but they don't have data that says that. And in fact, the models themselves are super questionable. The measures are super questionable. And it seems like that's just a really overstating, you know, the potential risks and dangers of this. For most people, like you said, it's healthy.

I think so, because if you're looking at a, if these numbers are accurate and you're looking at like a three to five percent rate of someone who takes things too far, where Terry Gross is like listening to, oh god, what's her show? I'm totally blanking. Fresh air. Fresh air is the gateway drug, and then that's not enough, and then you need, you go out and get some fresh air in front of her house. Things can get troubling. That's the same thing as saying, like anybody who ever takes a sip of alcohol, is at risk for becoming an alcoholic. And like technically these things are true because if you never took that sip of alcohol, you wouldn't be an alcoholic. But it's just, I think it's

a bit much. Right. Like anyone who smokes a rock of crack is going get addicted to crack, right? Yeah, exactly. So just a little more on that model, there's a kind of like the person at the center of the, yeah, it's a dangerous thing, camp seemingly, is a psychologist named Lynn McCutchen. Yeah, this was interesting. Lynn McCutchen in 2002 came up with the celebrity attitude scale and that's not a measure of like,

which real housewife is more caddy than the others. That's right. Instead, it measures your attitude towards celebrities if you're engaged in parasocial relationships. And Lynn McCutcheon broke it out into basically three levels. And again, they believe that this is like a state like these are stages. This isn't like this person would never get to this stage. Like if you started the first one, you're at risk of ending up in the third.

Yeah, and this was by the way, like 20 years ago, 21 years ago. So it wasn't a couple of years ago, which it sounds like it might be. But the three levels are the entertainment social level, which McCutchen says is like almost everybody. And that's what we've been talking about when you just, it's all good and it's all fun and there's no weirdness going on.

Then you get to intense personal and that's when you start to internalize the values of that person and consider them a soul mate. Those to me feel like disparate things. Like, yeah, that's a pretty wide window. Because when I first read it, I was like, yeah, in turn, liking the values of like someone doing good things, it's like, that's great. But putting that in the same categories,

considering their soulmate is a big stretch for me. Agreed. Okay. And then the final level, borderline pathological, that's the 3 to 5% and that's when it's what they call celebrity worship. That's the one, yeah, that's the one where, well no, okay, so borderline pathological is like the worst of it, but I think they're all celebrity worship, supposedly. And that'd be a big problem, yes.

And that's problematic because some of the people who are like, this isn't like an actual, like you guys, there's no data suggesting that this is actually dangerous. They're saying in one of the big problems is, you guys are interchanging the term fan with the term celebrity worshipper. And yet you've never actually studied fans.

Like they've never applied the celebrity attitude scale to groups of fans. They just applied it to random co-eds who wanted like extra credit for their psychology class. Yeah. So when a media psychologist named Gail Steaver or Stever, Gail and Lin, it's like a, it's Pat episode up in here. So when Gail Steaver applied the celebrity attitude scale to a group of fans, like people

who go to conventions and do- Like the Bay- Like the Swifties. Yeah, or who interact with other fans, people who've written letters to a celebrity or something like that, like fans, like above average fans. Yeah. They found that most of them didn't even rise

to the criteria for that first entertainment social level. Right. And that there is a definite distinction between being a fan and being a celebrity worshipper in any fan to tell you that, but you can thank Gail Steaver for proving it. Yes, so they're interrogating all these swiftees and they're like, dude, you're being weird.

I just think she's awesome and like her music and go to see her shows and fans get together and talk. Like just back off, you're being weird. I just think she's awesome and like her music and go to see her shows and, you know, fans get together and talk like just back off. You're being very strange. Right, but we wouldn't have a great pantheon of creepy movies if it weren't for that, you know, celebrity worship, the borderline path a lot. There's a lot of those, huh?

Yes, but they may be generally made up, I'm not sure. Are any of them good? What comes to mind is the Robert De Niro, Wesley Snipes one. Cause we haven't even talked about sports. One thing that you've sent me that is accurate is when you're at home screaming at a football player for dropping a pass or something,

that's a pair of social interaction. Right, so that's a pair of social interaction. You can be mad. That player knowing his wife's name and when they got married, that's the beginnings of a pair of social relationship. That's the distinction. Parasotional interaction can be cold out of just about anybody. Sure. If you're into whatever you're watching, but that doesn't mean you're going to follow up after the game or the episode is over.

Right. And don't ever talk back at the movie screen, although it can be funny. In the theater. Yeah. No, never. I mean, I don't do it. And I think it's rude, but I've also had a pretty good laugh or two when someone timed it out. Just right. My famous story about the witch in New York. I won't repeat. Okay. I'll just say you want to go find it. I forget stuff. Do you want to take a second break? Yeah. Yeah. Let's do that. We'll get tell you what I'm going to go find it. I forget stuff. You want to take a second break?

Yeah, yeah, let's do that. We'll get back here in a minute and we'll talk about some of the benefits perhaps and then the dark side right after this. Our first call is Mary in Lexington, Kentucky. Mary, welcome to the middle. Hello and thanks for having me. If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle. Hi, my name is Venkat. I'm calling you for Atlanta Georgia.

On the new podcast, The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'm live every week, taking your calls and focusing on Americans in the middle, who are so important politically but are often ignored by the media. I did a lifetime democratic voter, however I was raised by moderate Republicans from Michigan. Creating space for a civil conversation about the most contentious issues we face, from climate change to artificial intelligence, from abortion rights to gun rights. I consider myself to be conservative, physically, but politically independent. Listen to the Middle with Jeremy Hobson on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Mo Raka, and I'm excited to announce season 4 of my podcast, MoBitweries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you about the most fascinating people and things who are no longer with us. From famous figures who died on the very same day to the things I wish would die like buffets. People actually take little tastes along the way with their finger. Oh, they do. Oh no, I'm so sorry. Do you need a minute?

This is the only interview where I've needed a spit bucket. I'm so sorry. We'll tell you about the singer who helped define cool and the sports world's very first superstar. To call Jim Thorpe the greatest athlete in American history is not a stretch because no athlete before a sinc is done, what he did. Listen to Mobituaries with Moroca on the I Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Marissa Fallberg. And I'm Stephen Wolfededa. We I'm Steven Wolf-Badada. And we want to invite you to join us for a new podcast for Ann Nue. So what's actually new about brand-new? Well, Steven and I are not only working C-suite executives, we're friends. My friend Marissa is actually one of the most influential chief marketing officers in the world. And hey, Steven has a story career across finance, tech, and multicultural entertainment.

Because that, we've got a lot to say about the world of tech, entertainment, advertising, media, and marketing, what we actually call teen. We always adore each other, but don't always agree with each other, and that's part of the fun. It's real talk from the inside. Sometimes personal talk too. And it's meant for everyone, rising in business, or just interested in it. In each episode, we give our hot takes on hot topics

and always answer what's on your minds, too. Just look for the brand new podcast on the iHeart Podcast Network, or wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation that you won't want to miss. Okay, so I think we kind of laid out that there's a really big disagreement on whether this is actually problematic or not. I kind of tend to lean in the camp that not, although for some people it can't be, okay? Yeah. But there's also like a whole other school of thought that this is actually helpful in some ways and some surprising ways too But in ways that you would you would probably guess like

That you are physically emotionally psychologically getting a benefit out of that parosocial relationship that if you have a Favorite podcast and favorite podcast serves, and when you listen to them, you feel like you're hanging out with your friends, you're receiving positive benefits from that. And as long as you're not replacing real life friends with podcast friends, because your real life friends are bothering you, they bug you, you're getting basically nothing but benefit from it.

Yeah, and some of the other like specific benefits you, you're getting basically nothing but benefit from it. Yeah, and some of the other like specific benefits are examples of where, and you see this more and more of these days with, well, with all kinds of people, actors and pop stars and stuff, talking about mental health. People have, many, many, many people have sought treatment for themselves because their favorite singer has been open and honest about an eating disorder or a mental challenge. I think Davey is the example of Katie Curric years ago

when she, her husband died of colon cancer and she did a broadcast where she got a colonoscopy and the rate of people getting colonoscopies jumped after that. So it literally can help people be physically and mentally healthier because they're taking a cue, like they may not want to listen to their friend who says, hey, you should get some help, but they'll listen to Edie Brickell. What? Wow.

I don't know how that happened, but. No, no, no, E. Brickell. All right, E. Brickell, say, you know, you should, you should seek help if you're having struggles with a certain thing. Okay, yes, that's a benefit for all to, right? And that doesn't mean that you're, like you're just doing what the celebrity you like tells you to. There's a certain amount of, I think, just raising awareness that isn't accounted for in that as well. Also, supposedly, having a parasocial relationship with somebody in an out group from you can actually create feelings of empathy towards real life members of that out group. Totally. There was a 2020 study published in communications research that had

participants watch 10 weeks of a show that featured LGBTQ plus people as outgroup people. And over the 10 weeks, most of the people developed at least an affinity for the outgroup people. But some people actually develop pair of social relationships with them. And the groups that were the most prejudice against gay people going into the study at the most growth and actually had lower lessoned attitudes of prejudice toward gay people after the study because they were exposed to gay people Through TV through these characters that they developed some form of parasocial relationship with yeah, so like

I usually don't like homosexuals, but after watching after being forced to watch six feet under Keith and Michael's story was so sweet. And I just really love those guys. That happens. And that's one reason why representation matters. Just one reason. Go ahead. So Chuck speaking of gay love stories. I saw, have you seen the last of us?

I'm sure you have. Yeah, yeah. I played the game as well. I was way into it. So the, I think episode three. The best. Nick Alferman. Just amazing, dude. Yeah, so amazing. So if you have a relative who is Homephobic mm-hmm. Just start watching the the last of us and they like guns episode. Yeah and hate zombies And episode three will spring on them and before they know it it they'll love gay people for the rest of their lives

It's amazingly well done. Well, you know the story there is in the game. There is a just one brief mention of the the partner I can't think of his name now who'd make a comment played. Yeah, there's only yeah There's only one mention of Frank when he just says something in the game about like, yeah, I lost my partner a year ago, something, something. And you don't even know when you're playing the game if it was like a business partner, or whatever. And then when they made the TV show, they said, hey, this is like a chance to go off script and to build a richer world and to make this great episode of this awesome backstory.

And it was, you know, Hale was like one of the best TV episodes at the year of like any show. Yes, it's so good. Amazing. Nick Offerman just did such a great job. Yeah, and the other guy from White Lotus got he's so good. I've never seen him before. I've not watched that show.

Oh, I think you would like White Lotus. I've heard. I've heard. I've heard. Yeah. You see? Murray, what's his name? Abraham. Murray, something.

F. Murray, Abraham. No, Murray Bartlett. He's fantastic. Okay. All right. Has he been in anything else besides White Lotus? Am I the seen him in? Because I've really been recognized, but he had a pretty thick beard.

I don't know. He's so good at white look as though. Okay, I'll check it out. He's been in other stuff. And he's certainly more busy than he's ever been now because of those roles. Okay, so where are we Chuck? We're talking about.

Well, some of the benefits too. One thing that we've seen over the years is that you're not weird as a, you know, 40 something year old person to not have a pair of social relationship because generally speaking teens and adolescents are more likely to have these than adults do. And for teens, it can be kind of like we said before, if there's, if Edie Brickell is telling a teen about her struggles with something, it's a really big deal for a teen or an adolescent to know that they're not alone, that they can seek help and they're not weird because their favorite person, their favorite singer, also has the same thing.

Right. That's incredibly beneficial. I mean to help kids that are just feel completely isolated and make you feel less alone also Apparently this is an explanation for the trope of young girls like pre adolescent adolescent girls having crushes on like Scott Bayo or Who else that's not a jerk the Bay City rollers?ers. Yeah, the Bay City Rollers, of course. Everybody went through that. That they're actually like, the Paris social relationship helps them kind of explore

what a real relationship is going to be like, what their expectations are, what their wants are, what their needs are. You're testing out that. You're testing out that. There's a significant other to have. Bay City Rollers here. Yeah, for sure.

The AKA, the best hair. Yeah, for sure. AKA the best hair. Yeah. I said that because I remember when I was a kid, very specifically, I have a memory of, we had a babysitter over one night. And the babysitter was a girl that was older than my sister. So my sister must have been pretty young

because she's six years older me and she usually was the babysitter by that point. But I remember them sitting around with the Bay City Roller's record and spinning it around and dropping their finger on the album and whichever, you know, roller that their finger landed nearest to was the one that they would fall in love with.

I can't say. I can't say. When I was like five years older or something. It's very fun. Did it just blow your mind or were you like, what is this crime? No, I got it. And you know, my famously had a, my very first crush was a Christy McNichol who was gay. So I don't know what that says about me.

What was she in Aiden? Is it enough? No, she was in, I mean, she was in movies and stuff. She was sort of just the girl next door when we were, well, I'm older than you, but when I was a kid. No, I remember. I just don't remember what she was in. I'm trying to think of something.

I mean, she was in movies and stuff like Little Darling's and stuff that I wasn't allowed to watch. But I think she was on a TV show too. Yeah. I'm familiar with her. I can't remember what I saw. Oh, family. That was it. isn't allowed to watch. But I think she was on a TV show too. Yeah, I'm familiar with it. I can't remember what I saw. Oh, family, that was it. She was on that TV show for family.

That's why I thought it was eight is enough. It's basically the same thing. Exactly. They're just weren't eight of them, I think. So again, can be very beneficial, usually very harmless. There is a dark side. It's not to say that there isn't that that parasocial relationships can't go wrong or that they can be harmful or it can't

be harmful. And one of the ways that I said that media is built on itself over and over again. Yeah, you know, you're getting going from radio to TV. TV, apparently another big crest of this was when reality shows came along. Maybe people even more connected to the people on the screen. Then social media came along. And that is, it's almost like it was designed to get into your brain and be like, this person is legitimately your friend. They liked your post.

They may even, like, DM back and forth with friend. They like to your post. They may even like DM back and forth with you. They might respond to your email. They know who you are. They're your friend. And at that point, it being that realistic, it can trick you into forgetting that they aren't your friend. They don't really know you. And this is a pair of social relationships,

especially for developing minds. Yeah, absolutely, because all of a sudden, you have 24, seven access, depending on how active someone is in social media, where they are really sharing their life, and you see it post by someone, and you think, oh my gosh, I have a black main coon cat too. And I have that same tile in your bathroom,

you're getting these little glimpses. And I mentioned tile because I did the same thing. I saw Melissa McCarthy post something one time and I had the same tile that she did. And I, like a dope, thought, oh my god, we have the same taste. We would be such good friends. Well, she's a huge TikTok influencer, so I'm sure that happens to lots of people. I wish you really. No, I don't know. I don't think so. I've never been on TikTok. I see her more on Instagram. Yeah, sure. But they classify it as unhealthy when it's just rupture life,

when it disrupts your daily life day to day. And if it's damaging or replacing your real-life relationships, that's when it's, if you're spending money, like the furthest extreme is when all of a sudden you quit your job because you have to go live in the city where this person is, or you're spending a lot of money collecting expensive memorabilia or buying them gifts and sending them, that's where it gets into

the potential stalker realm. Yes, or that you threaten self-harm if they don't respond to you. It can be, it can get problematic. And again, this is exceedingly rare. I don't think it's like a huge thing to lose sleep over as like a parent or a concerned person. But it can't happen. And again, just the combination of social media and developing brains, it's just so dangerous in so many different ways and so potentially harmful in so many different ways. And this is one of those ways that it can happen. One of the other I think risk factors is, is it is possible to kind of let your in real life

relationships dwindle as because you're putting more and more focus and energy into your period social relationship. And that also is kind of like a self-defeating thing because there's fewer people to kind of pull you back toward reality and say like, no, no, where your friends, that person is an influencer, doesn't even know you exist. So let's go get some ice cream and play Fortnite while we do. Right.

Isn't that, isn't that nice? Call up your night even in camera. No, I'm not. But I've heard of Fortnite before on TV. So there's an article that they found that is really interesting and good, I think, from Maguardian from a couple of years ago by Rachel Aeroeste, I guess,

called Tragic but True, Colin, how podcasters replaced our real friends. And Rachel makes a very strong case that podcasting has even up the game even more pair of socially speaking and COVID really helped with that because during COVID when people were locked in and they weren't seeing their friends face to face anymore, they would have Zoom meetings and phone calls with certainly with their business associates, but also with friends.

I mean, I did this a few times where I would get on a zoom with a friend from out of town or even in town and all of a sudden podcasting increased. I think 51% of podcast listeners say they first started listening during the pandemic and it grew 40% from 2019 to 2022. So not only are more people listening, but they're listening in this very intimate way. And you know, people are in their ear holes and you're looking and interacting the same way you were on like a zoom because you were robbed of contact with your friends. So it was basically there was nothing to distinguish the two except talking back. What a weird turn of events too. to, except talking back. What a weird turn of events, too.

For sure. But the thing is, so I think that title is very misleading, because if you read it, she's not actually really lamenting it, she's more just kind of documenting it, I think. And she also makes the point that this was at a time during the pandemic, during lockdowns, where you were physically unable to interact with friends and podcasts made a pretty great substitute for a while and that that in and of itself makes it less harmful. I might be a little biased, but I do think that yes, being in people's ears is one of those triggers like looking at people in the camera was with TV

early on. Like that's a very very intimate to let somebody to let their voice be in your mind and basically take over your your mind for that period of time. And that's of course what we're doing everybody we're. Yeah, and the other thing too is podcasting is they found this great honors thesis by someone named Michaela Nadora from Portland State University a few years ago called Parasol Social Relationships with Podcasts, where Michaela even references stuff you should know, which is very great. She, the whole thing is about stuff you should know, all 30 of the pages. Yeah, I remember sending this to us

when she published. Oh, that's right. God, I totally remember that now. We get a lot of thesis, actually, interestingly. But the whole upshot is that with podcasting, anyone can do it. You have to have a small amount of equipment in the internet. And it's not like You have to have a small amount of equipment in the internet, and it's

not like you have to go through the trials and tribulations of someone auditioning for a role to eventually get on TV and stuff like that, and then you're a big star. It's like it's a low barrier to entry, and that means that there's going to be a lot of just sort of everyday people and regular shmows, like you and I, doing this, and that lends itself even more to people thinking, like, of course, we're friends. Like, I'm not gonna be friends with Carrie Bradshaw or Sarah Jessica Parker because they're just so fabulous, but Chuck and Josh are just normies like us. So we would be friends. Norm Kour to the max. We are. Another thing that McCaylen and Dora kind of sussed out as a trigger or Q is that a lot

of times people listen to podcasts alone. A lot of people listen to them with other people, but I would say the vast majority of them listen to them alone, but they're also listening to them while they're doing other activities like vacuuming or commuting or going to the grocery store. So it's like we're along for the ride, we're keeping you company while you're doing all this stuff. We're just sitting in the back seat, having a conversation that you're listening to while you drive us to the grocery store.

Right. And also, as we have done over the years, and especially, you know, they're all kinds of podcasts, but they found that the ones I've, you know, it makes sense with the strongest pair of social bonds are ones like this, where it's sort of people chatting, conversational, usually comedy, and not like a dramatic, like, I don't know, true crime, I guess, they can have that angle

with the host, who have a lot of personality. Like, they're taking care of in Georgia. Yeah, for sure. But with shows like the ones that we do, you talk inevitably about our lives and a house project we're doing, or Momo, or Nico and Charlie, or Yumi and Emily, or Ruby, and people get invested because they know this stuff about us, and they feel like they know these people, like who gets the biggest applause at any live show when Emily and Yumi are there. Emily and Yumi people are thrilled when they're there and Ruby was at her first live show in Atlanta and people were just like I mean people

were kind of staring at her and I didn't get creeped out because people were being super sweet and friendly and they thought it was so sweet that she was at her first show. But people hear these stories and I get it because I do the same thing with my podcast host that I love. And it all just makes sense. Recalling jokes and people have, especially with us, have lived 15, 16 years with us. And that whole thing where people get mad when their favorite celebrity couple gets a divorce like it's it's so weird to think about But Emily and I get mad when Susan Sarandon and Tim Robbins split up and if Emily and I got divorced people would hate my guts that listen to this show So yeah, I think what she she kind of sums all that up in is that that's one of the benefits of

Having a long running podcast or listening to a long running podcast is that's right little by little all that stuff comes out and you become Amashed in the the other that hosts life like you know what's going on in their life And that's exactly what you do with friends. You know what's going on in their life You know their dogs name and that their dog is great And you know their wife's name and their wife is great You just know this stuff and it's just another way that that media is tricking our brains Which are programmed to seek social connections into thinking. Oh, I've got a social connection going on. That's pretty great Right and people don't know

That I can be very moody and passive aggressive. Like even in a podcast medium like this where it is real for the most part, you don't wanna show that stuff on the air. You put your best self forward, even in a medium like this. Right.

That's why they coined that term persona or persona. Because yeah, it's just, no one does that. Maybe, what was that horrible punk guy who used to eat his own poop on stage? Cheechy Allen. Yes. Maybe Gigi Allen would do that if he were still alive and had a podcast.

But for the most part, no, anybody, no matter who it is, is going to, at the very least, put some semblance of their best self-forward. Even it's not 100%. It doesn't, it doesn't mean it's made up. It's that you're holding some stuff back because it's just, you don't share that with people you've never met before. And in that sense, we, the hosts are aware that you can form a pair of social relationship with us. We can't do that with you so that inherently makes us slightly guarded to some degree or another and creates for you guys a persona that is an idealized version of us. But here's the thing. If I talk about being passive-aggressive or moody, that ramps up the relationship because people can identify with that

I just can't be that to you on the air Yeah, then people would witness the actual act of it and say Well, geez, Chuck's up can be a real moody jerk sometimes. I know it be like the crossword puzzle all over Oh, no, oh No, I'm kidding. Great episode. Man, look at everybody else set. You know, like they were like, what is going on? Like, is this the end of stuff you should know? Oh, I know. I think I took my enthusiasm for crosswords and got weird. Oh, it was fine. I think it's a classic

app. It was a good one too, but I mean, just the fact that it has just that little ball of weirdness in there, I love it. Sure. It's a classic stuff you should know. I mean, that's all I got. I think it's super interesting. For sure. This is what made you choose this one.

I'm sure everybody wants to know because they'll feel closer to you if you tell them. I don't. Dave might have actually thought of this. No, maybe I just saw it because I didn't even know this was a term I I've lived it on both sides, but I never knew people studied it. So I don't know maybe that's where it came from. I just saw the words and I was like, oh wait, that's me both times Chuck both ways. Thank you. That comes after the colon from parasocial relationship. It's Chuck both ways

Yeah, like a fine dish and a great restaurant. All right that comes after the colon from parasocial relationship. Let's chuck both ways. Yeah, like a fine dish in a great restaurant. All right, too. You never had that, like scallop two ways or whatever. That's the thing. I made salad four ways, chichol. Oh. Oh.

Uh, like, uh, Nishwas salad. Okay. What were the other two? Oh, one was like a corn and bean salad. Okay, sounds good. And then there was another one. And I was like, my god, I made four salads, yeah. All in one meal? There was a lot of leftover salad, but it was good.

Salad for a race, I like it. When I came over, it only made me three salads, so I'm a little salty. I was holding back, I was still perfecting the fourth one. All right. I'll make that fourth one for you some other time. Please. Well, I feel like we're done with this episode.

You said that's all you got, it's all I've got. I'm done talking about salad, so that means it's time for listener mail. I'm gonna call this inspiration. Hey guys, so I want to reach out and say that I love your show. My husband discovered it, showed it to me, I'm gonna call this inspiration. Hey guys, so I want to reach out and say that I love your show. My husband discovered it, showed it to me, I haven't stopped listening since.

When I was a stay at home mom feeling lonely, I would turn on the show and feel like I was having a conversation with friends. That's funny, I didn't even pre-read this one. No way, really? Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. And Kim Lee says parentheses in the least creepy way possible.

Always good to include that. Your show even gave me the inspiration, an idea to write a daily true crime calendar as a way for me to share my interest with others, just like you. In fact, several days in my calendar inspired by some of your episodes by getting this idea from you to work on the calendar,

it helped me through postpartum anxiety. And helped me feel like I was helping to provide for my new little one. I would love to show you my appreciation by sending you each a copy of my calendar. If you would like one just reply to my address. So hey you can send it. Here's my home address. I'm just kidding. So grateful I was able to discover the show because I wouldn't be where I would am now if I hadn't keep doing the good work. I look forward to hearing from you. And that is from Kenley. Kenley?

Yeah, Kenley. And I, Kenley. Yeah, I want one of these true crime calendars. I love a daily calendar. I just need to send Kenley the address. Yeah, same here. So a police spell, Kenley or Kenley's name? OK, I am, L.E.Y.

Kenley. Oh, yeah. Like Mount McKinley, but without the Mount or the Mitch. Exactly. Kinley, thank you so much for that email. Like I said at the beginning of this episode, we love hearing stuff like that, so we're glad we could help in some way and I'd love a calendar too. If you want to be like Kinley and get in touch with us, you can send us an email as well.

Send it off to stuffpodcast. at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election, you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle. On the podcast The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'll take calls live every week, elevating the voices of Americans who are so important when it comes to who's in power and what gets done. My name is Venkat, I'm calling you for my plan of joy, Jogia.

Listen to the Middle-Aid Jeremy Hobson on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mo Raka, and I'm excited to announce season four of my podcast, Mo Bituaries. I've got a whole new bunch of stories to share with you about the most fascinating people and things who are no longer with us. From famous figures who died on the very same day to the things I wish would die like buffets. Listen to MoPituaries with MoRaka on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Marissa Falkberg and I'm Steven Wolf Fadada. Come join us for our podcast brand new. So what's really new about brand new? Well Steven and I are not only long time C-suite executives or friends. Because of that, we've got a lot to say about tech entertainment, advertising, media, and marketing, what we call teen. It's real talk from the inside, personal talk too, and it's meant for everyone rising in business or just interested in it.

Does look for the brand new podcast wherever you listen. It's a brand new conversation you won't want to miss.