Stuff You Should Know - Selects: How Publicists Work

Episode Date: May 24, 2025

Some people call them flacks. Other people call them liars. But if you're in the public eye and suddenly have an image problem, you'll call them your best friend. Learn all about them in this classic episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. You're never filling. You're telling yourself a story and you're actually avoiding what you should be doing. You got to get in. You got to get your hands dirty. Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention. This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell-bent

effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious. He was out of his mind and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. You can now binge all 10 episodes of Divine Intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. We're going to jump back in podcast time to September 15, 2015 for this week's selection, How Publicists Work.

We've never had a publicist. You know why? Because nobody cares that much about us. So it's really not a job that would get a lot of billable hours, if you know what I mean. But anyway, it's a pretty fascinating, weird job. And we heard from a few publicists, I believe, when we recorded this. So maybe we'll hear from some again.

How publicists, publicists, publicists work. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry. So Stuff You Should Know. This is it. Boy, that sounded like you were introducing the final episode

my voice this is it feels like it's the final episode you won't be able to talk anymore no I'm getting there it's not true you don't know that uhhh how's it going?

it's going pretty well man how about with you? uhhh I think both of us had a bit of a dark time researching this article. Why? Well, because, and we're gonna get, well, we're gonna get flack. That's a teaser. From publicists, because what I learned

is that publicists are professional liars. I would say that depends on the circumstance. Well, what do you mean? You're saying they're a publicist who don't lie? No, I'm saying it depends on whether the publicist is going to the media or the media is coming to the publicist, depending on the circumstance. What I am saying is no matter what, who you work for, if you are a publicist, then a percentage of your job will be lying. Right, okay. Depending on the circumstance. Yeah.

So Billy Ray Cyrus... Like you wouldn't lie about something good. Billy Ray Cyrus is like, I am going to donate a bunch of time and money to a local homeless shelter. Yeah, you don't have to lie about that. The publicist gets on the horn, starts letting everybody know, you guys should come cover this. Billy Ray Cyrus goes and does that and everything's good.

Then on the way home, Billy Ray Cyrus decides to celebrate by drinking a bucket of tequila and runs his car into a whatever. The publicist then starts getting calls and says. He didn't drink a bucket of tequila. That wasn't even him. That's overstated. What really happened with this? So the circumstances depend on whether the publicist is fimming or not.

Oh yeah, I'm not saying that all publicists do is lie, but I'm saying if you work as a publicist is fibbing or not. Oh yeah, I'm not saying that all publicists do as lie, but I'm saying if you work as a publicist, part of your job is to cover tracks and to lie. Gotcha. And you know, don't hate the publicist, hate the system, is what I say. Yeah, they're definitely a part of a larger system. Yeah, a larger system, which includes all of us

who digest news. Yeah, especially, say, like, entertainment news. Yeah. That kind of thing. There's a whole, there's two, from my understanding, there's two routes a person can take as a celebrity. You can either just go off and be a normal person and Depending on your level you might have paparazzi following you or that kind of stuff there's her once you get to a certain level

it doesn't matter what your decision is or you can hire a publicist and Feed yourself right into that machine to get as much publicity and as much press as you possibly can Yeah, well, I think any celebrity is gonna have a publicist, but it's really a matter of your directive and your goal. Right. I think some of those people like to be like the old adage, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

Yeah, I ran into that. That's more of a PR term where, like, so if you're into PR, you're probably representing a company or an organization or something like that Yeah, a publicist is somebody who typically represents a single person an artist an author a musician Something like that. That's really the the only definition I can find for a publicist and the the job the goal of the publicist is to the job, the goal of the publicist is to help maintain and promote the public image of that person that they represent. That's right.

By having a good relationship with the media. Yes. That's where it starts. That's the publicist. And by the way, that no such thing as bad publicity. I tried to find the origin of that. And the closest thing I could find was PT Barnum But I don't know if that's true. I don't think that's verified. Well, let me say Mark Twain

Yeah, PT Barnum or Mark Twain. Everybody says oh it was a Mark Twain saying And I don't think that's even true. Anyway, I think maybe that used to be true What that it was a Mark Twain saying no that no such thing as bad publicity I think at one point that may have been sort of true Yeah, these days there's clearly bad publicity. Sure. So you said the word flack earlier as a teaser apparently to flack or a flack is a term Originating from gene flack Early movie publicist. Yeah, Hollywood and that's what the CK early movie publicist. Yeah. Hollywood. And that's what the CK. That's right. FLAK, to take flak, is named after a type of German gun in World War II, a German

anti-aircraft gun. Two different things. But in this case it is a pejorative term for publicist. They don't like it. A PR flak. Yeah, you shouldn't say that to someone that works in PR. No. Or call them a liar. They don't like that either. Yeah. Yeah, I looked it up. Apparently it means that you can't be trusted.

You'll do anything for money. That's what a flack is to them. One article I read said that's like calling a personal injury attorney an ambulance chaser. Yeah. Just not a nice term. Gotcha. So there a nice term. Gotcha. So there you have it. So a publicist, like you said, works for their client to make them, to get their good deeds

out and to, if they don't have good deeds, to spend things to make it look like they do. Right. You know? Here, hold this baby lamb. Yeah. While we take your picture. Exactly. And then they get Fogger Affleiter eating gyros down the block. The two events were totally not connected. No. So what they do is they pitch ideas to the media and they probably have to be good writers themselves because a press

release oftentimes is a starting point But press releases as we know Can get lost in the shuffle and never see the light of day. Yeah, it seems like a huge waste of time It can be but if you have a good publicist They will be well connected to the media right to ensure that that publicity blast is not lost. Right, exactly. So there's direction one, which is from the publicist to the media, and the publicist is going to have all these contacts with different entertainment reporters

and business reporters and anybody that could possibly run a story on their client, right? That's right. And they'll say Billy Ray is going to donate some money. Why are we picking on him? He just seems like the type who would donate a bunch of money to a homeless shelter and go down there himself and help out. So Billy Ray's going to be down there, plus it rolls off the tongue, Billy Ray. So why don't you send one of your cub reporters down and let's get some coverage

for this. And since they're friends, since these people have worked together for decades now, this reporter and your publicist, the reporter actually might respond and show up, or the editor or the news producer, whoever the contact is. That's great. You hired a good publicist and now this story is going to make it out there. That's right. Because they didn't just write up a press release with a bunch of exclamation points

in the headline and fax it to every media outlet they could find and get zero response. Yes, a publicist is only as good as their relationships, I think. The other way on that street that you were talking about is from the journalist back to the publicist, if they hear, I heard Billy Ray Cyrus drink a bucket of tequila and ran over a prostitute with his car. They will then get in touch with the publicist, and then they go, Jack, buddy, hey,

we go back a long way. Would I lie to you? Would I lie to you? So that's how that goes. And they will be more forthcoming with people who have, it's a scratch your back, you scratch mine type of scenario. Yeah, like that reporter that actually showed up at the homeless shelter and covered it and made a nice piece and everything. I'll give you the scoop. When that guy calls, he's going to get the better treatment from the publicist than somebody who ignored the pitch before. That's right.

Yeah, it's a lot of back scratching. A lot of back scratching. Feeding the machine. I've seen a lot more women as publicists than men and I've always wondered why that is true. I don't know that that is true. In researching this I saw about an equal amount. I used to think that as well but it seems like there's an equal amount these days. It seems like every publicist I've ever known has been a woman and I just figured it's because women may be more level-headed and more able to like smooth out a situation and some big dumb guy. But I guess the guys who are publicists aren't big dumb guys like me. I'd be a bad publicist.

Oh yeah? So what would your response be if somebody called to find out what stupid thing your client did or why they did some stupid thing? I'd say, you know what? It's really none of your business. It's not bothering me. Bad publicist. Yeah, well that was something I ran across, was saying something like, my client needs their privacy respected right now, would just immediately shut down a relationship that you've cultivated over the years.

You have to give as a publicist. There has to be something that you have to give as a publicist. You are, like, there has to be something that you give. So you better have something that will placate the reporter, but will also, is probably not the truth because that reporter will go off and write the truth about your client and your client will have just gotten horrible publicity because of you. So it's a balancing act. Yeah. Or they'll just say, let me send you a gift bag from Fred Siegel.

You like the last one, right? Yeah. But publicists may also, and it depends, people that have a staff of people working for them, sometimes the lines are blurred on who does what, but a publicist can arrange interview requests and set all that stuff up. If you have like a book tour or you're a politician or you're a

band with a new album coming out, they might arrange all those interviews, in which case they are prepping two things. They are prepping the interviewer saying you can't ask about the bucket of tequila. If you want this interview, I'll give it to you, but this is off limits, all these things. And then, as we've learned, when we've had people work with us in publicity, they'll be prepping you as the interviewee. Like, if they ask this, this is how you should probably deal with it. Don't answer that bridge back to what you were saying before. And my favorite thing ever are videos where celebrities walk out of interviews because the interviewer has asked something they weren't supposed to

ask. Yeah. Those are great. Yeah. I just sit around and watch those all day. Yeah, you can probably find a pretty good supercut of them. Yeah, probably so. All right, well let's take a break and when we come back, we will talk a little bit about the skills you need as a publicist. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar. I host a podcast called A Slight Change of Plans. I started this show because unexpected change comes for all of us, and there's no set playbook for how to deal with it.

I have all of this psychological baggage that I'm carrying with me, and the last thing I want to do is to pass that on to my daughter. So I have to figure this out. This puzzle of my trauma, I have to figure it out, and I have to figure this out. This is this puzzle of my trauma. I have to figure it out and I have to figure it out now. Join me this season when I talk to Amanda Knox about her choice to reconnect with the prosecutor who helped put her behind bars. This is not about him. This is about me and what I am capable of giving.

And I know that I am capable of being kind to this man. And by God, I am going to do it and no one can stop me. Listen to a slight change of plans on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And it's gonna take us to heal us. It's mental health awareness month. And on a recent episode of Just Healed with Dr. J,

the incomparable Taraji P. Henson stopped by to discuss how she's discovered peace on her journey. So what I'm hearing you saying is healing is a part of us also reconnecting to our childhood in some sort. You said I look how youthful I look because I never let that little girl inside of me die. I go outside and run outside with the dogs. said I look how youthful I look because I never let that little girl inside of me die. I go outside and run outside with the dogs. I still play like a kid. I laugh, you know, I love jokes. I love funny. I love laughing. I laugh at myself. I don't take myself too seriously. That's the stuff that keeps you young and stops you from being so hard. To hear this and more things on the journey of healing, you can listen to Just Heal with

Dr. J from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Hello, hello, Malcolm Gladwell here. On this season of Revisionist History, we're going where no podcast has ever gone before. In combination with my three-year-old, we defend the show that everyone else hates. I'm talking, of course, about Paw Patrol. There's some things that really piss me off when it comes to Paw Patrol.

It's pretty simple. It sucks. My son watches Paw Patrol. I hate it. Everyone hates it, except for me. Plus, we investigate everything from why American sirens are so unbearably loud to the impact of face blindness on social connection to the secret behind Thomas' English muffins,

perfect nooks and crannies. And also, we go after Joe Rogan. Are you ready, Joe? I'm coming for you. You won't want to miss it. Listen to Revisionist History on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we've mentioned lying. And you know, I joke, but for real, if you want to be a publicist, you better have a certain comfort level with stretching the truth and lying. Yeah. Because you're going to have to do that.

If you're not comfortable with that, you shouldn't go into that line of work. Yeah. Is that safe to say? I think very. You need to be good with people and cultivate those relationships. Need to be a good writer. Well, not only do you have to be a good writer, you have to be a good journalist. And a lot of publicists have a background in journalism because I kept running into

this in this article and another article you sent. The number one rule of being a publicist is to think like a journalist. Even better than that is to not only think like a journalist but be able to write like a journalist too. Because as we kind of demonstrated, the publicist media relationship is a two-way street. The publicist needs the media to publicize in a flattering manner their client. But the media needs a publicist because they've got deadlines

and they need to come up with story ideas and if something is brought to them, that's great. That's good. But that media professional has a reputation to protect. It can't be like Billy Ray Cyrus got off of his couch and mailed a check for $500 to a local homeless shelter. Yeah, boring. Yeah.

And it came in a press release in a fax machine. That reporter is not going to have a very good reputation. But if a publicist comes to this reporter with a great headline, creative pitch, a good story that's tailored to that reporter and their beat and, even more than that, tailored to that reporter's audience. Yes. There's a good likelihood that a reporter will say, I'm listening. Right.

And that's just music to a publicist's ears. Sure, just to be listened to. Yeah, that's when you throw it into fifth gear. You can't be afraid of rejection. You've got to be outgoing and you've got to take your licks because a lot of your attempts are going to fail just by nature of the job. So you can't get your feelings all hurt. You guess you could, but you don't want to show that

because then the journalists will be like, jeez, Chuck's such a baby. You were going to be eaten alive. And didn't run the story and he's complaining. Crying even. I saw him choking up in the bathroom. While they make a good laugh out of that, they probably won't want to work with you as much.

Right. You've got to be very patient and you have to be very flexible because if you're working for celebrities, it is a very tough job. That's another thing too. Your hours are basically all hours. Whenever you're needed. Right. So not only does your publicist frequently also have to do other stuff or people associated

with the publicist have to do things like pick up things for the client. Yeah, like stuff an assistant would do. Yeah. Sure. do things like pick up things for the client. Like dry cleaning or stuff. Yeah. Sure. In addition to that, like the higher up you go on the food chain, which we'll talk about in a minute, the more that client feels A-OK with emailing you at three in the morning saying like,

I need to be reassured about my celebrity status or whatever. And the publicist needs to respond. You're basically on call all the time. Also, at three in the morning, your client may have done something really horrifically stupid, and some paparazzi caught it, and now words starting to spread, and you're fielding calls from reporters at three in the morning to get a statement

on what your client did. Yeah. I mean, when Twitter came out, I remember thinking at the time, like, publicists aren't going to be around anymore because people are doing this themselves. Well they've actually figured out ways to use Twitter. Well ways to use Twitter, but Twitter is also their biggest security blanket as well because of Twitter, more and more celebrities are saying really stupid things that the publicist is then gonna have to cover their tracks. Yeah that's a good point. So they'll take down the tweet and then try and spin that or just you know the apology is always very funny to me.

The awkward? Well it's never like did you hear about Chris Carter the NFL guy he's a former NFL player wide receiver sure for the Vikings right yeah he is in hot water this week because he spoke was hired by the NFL to come in and speak to the rookies they often do that for guys that had been in trouble to come in and say don't do what I did it's scared straight yeah sort of and he said in his talk to the rookie symposium said something about, you know, if you get caught with, you know, da da da da da, he went, just make sure you have a fall guy on your team. Like the guy in the car that's like, it's my weed.

Wow. Basically. And he got in big trouble for that. And his apology, his apology was like, that's not the kind of advice I would ever give young people. It's like, but that's the advice you exactly gave young people. Like, how can you say that days later? It's just so obvious it's a forced, insincere apology. So he either had a bad publicist or he didn't listen to his publicist.

Because part of the publicist's job is when you're going to make the statement, the public statement, the public apology or whatever, the reasoning behind it, the rationale, the wording of it, just the logic behind the apology is probably going to be crafted by your publicist. At least they're gonna help you with it. At the very least they're going to want to help you with it. Because they're probably scared, stupid, that you're going to make it worse.

Right, and it sounds like there's a lot of crisis management and that is a part of it, but publicists also are just trying to cook up opportunities. I think that that's way more the day-to-day. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Depending on day-to-day. Yeah. Yeah for sure Depending on the client, of course sure, but I remember our former boss Connell was in a band years ago and the I read online somewhere that his band was Went to Elton John's do you remember this story? No went to Elton John's house and

Spelled out their band name and fire on his tennis court. No, I hadn't heard that. To try and get on his label or something. That's a great way to do it. I know and I went and asked him, I was like, dude I can't believe you guys did that and he went, we didn't do that. I was like no and he was like no, he's our publicist made that up. I was like nothing true about it and he's like no, they completely fabricated that story as a publicity stunt that never happened, huh? Yeah, so why even go to the trouble of it where you can just release a story that says that you did that Yeah, that amazing when something like that could so easily be Fact checked like by calling Elton John well. That's the other thing like I don't have it in this call Elton John

You know I don't know so I'm curious. I wonder how many Like I don't have it in this call out and John, you know So I'm curious. I wonder how many Media stories are just totally fabricated matter of fact. I'd be you out there in podcast land Let us know if you know a media story that was just totally fabricated that everybody takes his fact, right? We want to hear it I love stuff like that. I do too All right. We mentioned earlier that you might end up getting the laundry or dry cleaning as a publicist. If you're the publicist's intern.

Yeah, that's probably what's going to happen is you might get asked to go get the laundry and then you'll say, sure, I'll take care of that for you. And then you will go down the chain until you find the underling who is trying to be a publicist who still does things like that. Right. This person may or may not be in college, but is probably college age. That's something that I ran across. If you want a career as a publicist, you do not need to spend a single penny on higher

education. No. The entire career of publicist begins as a hands-on experience. Yeah, you can. You need to be literate. You need to probably have a knack for writing in a journalistic way and crafting good headlines and by proxy good email subject lines. But if you have that already before college, you don't need to go to college.

No. You can go and major in journalism or communications or PR But it's not like you get that diploma that PR diploma and you're gonna get like some entry-level job as a publicist No, you're still gonna have to work your way up. See it says right here. I have a PR degree So where's my job right? My advice is to skip college and go straight into the workforce As early as you can if this is what you want to do. You know, I feel and I hope that there is becoming a bigger understanding that there are certain fields out there, there are careers out there,

where you don't have to go to college. No. And there are careers out there where like, you should go to a vocational school to learn that trade. Yes. That college is not necessarily this end-all be-all that you have to spend money after money after money to get a degree that might even not be used in your field. But I mean... I didn't need a degree to do what

I'm doing. No one ever has to see it. Right and this is a this is a perfect example of that Chuck. Like to be a publicist you do not need a degree. You need hands-on experience. You need basically what amounts to an apprenticeship. That's right. Good way to say it. So go in and get that job in the mailroom or as an assistant or as an intern. And it would be great if you still live at your parents' house at this point because you're going to get paid like next to nothing.

Yes. And you're going to be doing all the grunt work. Yes. But if you are, if you go in there with your mindset to, I'm going to learn this, I want to learn this and move up, you're going to be in the right environment for that. Absolutely. Like we said, you might be picking up dry cleaning, you're going to be returning a lot of phone calls, drafting a lot of probably not so fun press releases.

That is graduated from the intern. Yeah, well I'm talking about being like a junior assistant. Right, after you get hired on. Yeah, yeah, and press releases that aren't like the sexy ones, you know. You're not going to be writing like the press releases for Billy Ray Cyrus, in other words. No. Those are sexy. You'll be writing them for his dog.

Okay. You know? Sure. Freddie? Freddie Cyrus? Freddie Cyrus, yeah. Okay. You are going to be handling your publicists that you work for, their schedule, their contacts. You're going to be putting together press kits and EPKs,

electronic press kits, and blasting those out. Basically all of the nuts and bolts of the job you're going to be doing as a junior staff publicist or an assistant. Not a bad gig if that's what you want to do. And if you stick to it and you're good at it, you're going to end up being a publicist. Right. Not only are you getting the experience you need on the job, you're also in a place where you're networking too. Because that is probably tied for first as far as like thinking like a journalist goes.

You need to be a pretty good networker. That's right. And you know what? Let's take a break and we will talk more about networking and some of the skills you still need. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar. I host a podcast called A Slight Change of Plans. I started this show because unexpected change

comes for all of us, and there's no set playbook for how to deal with it. I have all of this psychological baggage that I'm carrying with me, and the last thing I want to do is to pass that on to my daughter. So I have to figure this out. This puzzle of my trauma, I have to figure it out, and I have to figure it out now.

Join me this season when I talk to Amanda Knox about her choice to reconnect with a prosecutor who helped put her behind bars. This is not about him. This is about me and what I am capable of giving. And I know that I am capable of being kind to this man. And by God, I am going to do it and no one can stop me. Listen to a slight change of plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And it's going to take us to heal us.

It's Mental Health Awareness Month and on a recent episode of Just Healed with Dr. J, the incomparable Taraji P. Henson stopped by to discuss how she's discovered peace on her journey. So what I'm hearing you saying is healing is a part of us also reconnecting to our childhood in some sort. You said I look how youthful I look because I never let that little girl inside of me die. I go outside and run outside with the dogs. I still play like a kid. I laugh, you know, I love jokes. I love funny. I love laughing.

I laugh at myself. I don't take myself too seriously. That's the stuff that keeps you young and stops you from being so hard. To hear this and more things on the journey of healing, you can listen to Just Heal with Dr. J from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. AT&T, connecting changes everything. Hi, I'm Radhida Vlukya and I am the host of a Really Good Cry podcast.

And I had the opportunity to talk to Davy Brown. Davy Brown is one of the most sought after wellness educators and through her signature blend of advanced meditation, breathwork, metaphysical physiology, spiritual psychology and holistic trauma informed facilitation, Davy has touched the lives of countless students, including renowned artists, athletes and executives of global corporations. But anything can be used as a tool of avoidance with women, any kind of thing where there might be this underlying edge of self sacrifice as martyrdom. If you're never filling, you're telling yourself a story and you're actually avoiding what you should be doing. Your life at the end of it is still going to be a sum of your experiences. And so you got to get in.

You got to get your hands dirty. Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So can I make a confession? Yes. I'm possibly the worst networker on the planet. You didn't have to tell me that. I'm really bad at it. Yeah, it's not your bag. It isn't some people are good at networking I'm pretty good at it. You're good at networking. Yeah, cuz I enjoy it Yeah, and I don't consider it Networking sounds like Just doing something to serve you in the end. I

Don't look at it that way. I look at it as like I enjoy making professional colleague Enjoy meeting and getting to know professional colleagues. Yeah. And then later on if I can hit them up for something or if they hit me up, that's great. But if not, it's just something like, you know? So the proper response to somebody when they come and ask you for something, you're like, oh, I saw this coming.

Yeah. That's not the way to respond. Probably not. and ask you for something, you're like, oh, I saw this coming. Yeah. That's not the way to respond. Probably not. I'm trying to put myself out there a little more. Oh yeah? Yeah. Why's that?

Just, I think that's a skill that everybody should have. Yeah. All right. Instead of being like a misanthropic recluse. Right. You know? Put yourself out there, I agree. Well, one of the skills that I don't think we pinpointed was networking without seeming like you're networking which is sort of

It was the key what I was just talking about and I think maybe that is it too like I feel like networking is a task whereas if I just relaxed and enjoyed it and like just you know Communing with a fellow human being Now what it's all about? That's all it is? That's so scary. If I just took it like that, then I'm sure it would be much more relaxing. I read a blog, and I sent it to you, and I want to shout them out because they... Sonic Bids. S-O-N-I-C-B-I-D-S.

It's a blog where they did an interview that was pretty insightful, actually. S-O-N-I-C-B-I-D-S. Mm-hmm. It's a blog where they did an interview that was pretty insightful, actually. They did a double interview. A dual interview with Julie Lichtenstein of 37 Media and Lily Gellightly of Gellightly Media. And I think they work with bands and musical artists mainly. Yeah. But it was super insightful.

And they said, just some little tidbits here, like I was always curious how they get paid. And I think if you're a publicist for a person and like you are on retainer, then you just get a salary. Or if you're part of a firm that just works with that person. But you can also just be hired for a campaign. Right, so if you're a band and you've gone to the trouble of like going in and hiring a producer to produce your album and like you've made a studio quality album that you're proud of, you might want to hit everybody up or gather around another two grand

to hire a publicist for a month to release that album correctly. Not a bad idea. And like just hiring a publicist for a month to release that album correctly. Not a bad idea. No. And, like, just hiring a publicist isn't going to automatically make it great. No. Like, you need to say, like, can we see some of the other campaigns you've run? Sure.

What are your ideas for this campaign? Who have some of your clients been in the past? What are, what are, what's some of the press that you've gotten? Yeah, let me see your successes. Yeah, you don't want to just be like, throw a dart at a phone book. Right. Do your research because it's too grand and you're an up and coming band and that's just not chump change. But if you look at it as a wise investment and you do invest it wisely

in a good publicist, it could make a huge difference for you. Agreed. This Julie said that they try and get out for major artists three or four months ahead of the release of the album is when they want to start their job. So it's not like, hey, it drops next week, let's think of some good ideas. They want some good lead time. And they said that they like to work around goals, if it's like a tour, like for us going on our tour. We don't have a publicist. But we have promoters working with venues that sort of do the job of a publicist as far as trying to sell tickets.

But if you are booking a tour and you have a publicist, they're going to be the ones that are getting you on the local radio stations, morning TV, getting you in the local newspaper or alternative newspaper to get you some press. Yep. And this is, I mean, if you have, like this is stuff you can do yourself, but one of the things that you are hiring when you hire a publicist is their contacts too. Yeah, absolutely. Like you don't have the contacts, you're just the band. One of the problems is you are, it's going to be tough for you to think objectively. Like you're not gonna understand

why every journalist you talk to doesn't want to automatically do a long form piece on how great your band is. Right. Publicist is going to be dispassionate enough, and removed enough that they can see it objectively through a journalist's eyes, and then pitch it in a way that's probably going to get better,

more bites. Yeah, that's a good way to put it, because the artists, we've even experienced this, is the ones who gets their feelings hurt, saying like, oh man, they interviewed us last time, why didn't they do it this time? And they gets their feelings hurt saying like oh man, you know, they they interviewed us last time Why didn't they do it this time and they're always great about? massaging the ego a little bit saying like it's okay guys, it's no big deal. Yeah, cuz That doesn't do much for us. Anyway lie

We got this other thing that's better lie. All right The other thing they're gonna be doing if they work for you is they're gonna be sending you weekly or bi-weekly reports on what's lined up, who passed on stuff, who bit, stuff like that. Like they're keeping you informed. You're not just like in a black hole. And some artists like to be well in touch on that stuff and some probably don't care about being bothered. Right. They just want to be on Conan. Man, Conan shot in Atlanta, 15 minutes from our house, where we live, and we couldn't get on Conan. I know. And it was while our TV show was debuting.

I know. You don't have to remind me. Let's talk Penny C. Sanciviere. Yeah, from HuffPo. She is the author and CEO of Marketing Experts, Inc. And she listed out nine things that a good publicist does. What's number one, Chuck, can you guess? Think like a journalist.

That's right. You already said that. And you were right. That's the number one rule. Number two rule is know the rules. Right. Gotta play within the game. If you start, and you can bend rules,

but if you start breaking them, people have a long memory. Well, yeah, if you go on and read, just type the phrase rules of pitching and publicity into your favorite search engine. And it will bring up, apparently, one of the things journalists like to do in their downtime is write lengthy blog posts mocking PR and publicists

who don't follow the rules of pitching. So one of the rules is no phone calls. You just don't use the phone. Oh, all email? Yeah, especially if you're cold calling people. Like I guess if you have a relationship with somebody, No phone calls. You just don't use the phone. Oh, all email? Yeah, especially if you're cold calling people. Like, I guess if you have a relationship with somebody, you can pick up the phone and call them, but you don't send an email blast and then a day later follow up on the email by phone.

Did you get that email? Apparently, that's the worst thing you can do. Yeah, you don't want to bug people. No, and it's very easy to come off as like pestering a reporter as a publicist. I bet. So you need to know the rules or your publicist needs to know the rules. Here's a good one that I didn't think about, reading outside of your market. I'm sure it's pretty easy to just think New York and LA, like what else do I need to know about? Well not even that. It's like if you're a band.

Outside of your industry. Yeah. You know, and just start to think of like, oh well, we actually sing this song about the oil industry and oil prices are going through the roof. So maybe the Today Show would want to talk to us about our song. I didn't think about that.

I'd be a great publicist. Well, you'd be a great songwriter. Except I'm terrible at networking. Google Alerts, that's kind of a no-brainer, I would think. Understanding the importance of local media, that's a good one. Because while your artist is not going to be super stoked about appearing on Good Morning Toledo, if there's a tie, like you're from Toledo, like you, then that's probably a smart thing to do, because the local media loves people that were from there

that moved away. Or maybe they still live there. Plus, Mrs. Sanciviari makes this point, or Ms. Sanciviari, sorry, makes this point that you never know where a local contact is going to end up. Sure. Might hit the big time. They might work for USA Today in a couple of months.

Yeah. It doesn't get bigger than that. And if they hit the big time on their end and they have you as like a contact, it could help you out big time. That's right. And then earlier you mentioned something about subject lines for emails. I never really thought about this, but Penny says... Can I call her Penny? You can. Are we on a first name basis?

I call her Ms. Sansa Vieri. Okay. Well, she says that crafting a subject line is one of the most important things that you can do as a publicist. Yeah. And that they agonize over this. And it makes total sense with the glut of emails that people receive especially journalists You want to grab their attention otherwise, it's just gonna be bye-bye time Yeah, so but you also have to know redrafting editing tweaking

She says it's just like maddening how much you have to do that. Yeah, that would drive me crazy Yeah, because it's the minutia, so much importance on the minutia. Yeah, but it's true, and you have to put a lot of thought into it, but you also probably can't come off as having put too much thought into it, or else it seems desperate, which will turn somebody off. Man, journalists.

Publicists wanna kill journalists and vice versa. Yeah, it sounds like a weird relationship for sure. Yeah. And then also, did you look up media leads? No. So basically, there's services out there where journalists say, I need a quote on, I'm doing a piece on nuclear fusion and I don't even know what that is, so I need a source. And then this service that the journalist calls puts out like a daily or maybe even more than once a day newsletter blast to PR people who pay for the service.

And then they go through and say, oh, I've actually got a nuclear physicist on my payroll and I'm going to connect him. We've been connected that way before How who when we had different PR firms working for with us at times? They've gotten in touch and say it said so and so at SpaceX Wants to know if you want to come on and talk about this or when we did that stuff on ABC About when the housing crisis hit yeah, cuz we're financial experts. Yeah, so stuff like that. Yeah, I got you.

It used to come across our desk every now and then. Well, there's subscription services that connect people through leads. From what I'm seeing is Twitter is now filling that void a lot, where you can just search Twitter for the hashtag H-A-R-O, help a reporter out. The reporters, and then also I guess there's a lot of PR tastemakers out there. We've researched Twitter for the hashtag H-A-R-O, help a reporter out. Yeah. The reporters, and then also I guess there's a lot of PR tastemakers out there that are just super connected and will basically tweet a lead and you don't have to pay $1,000 a month for that subscription service.

You just follow certain people on Twitter and as a PR person you might have somebody that's a client that you connect. Yeah, that whole new job of being an aggregator, a curator. Yeah, like that, yeah. Like people do that and that's all they do. But we also live in an age where people are famous for being famous. I know. Man.

I need to take back a little bit my tirade about liars. I think that what I'm talking about are people, publicists for like big celebrities and stuff like that. Like we've had publicists work with us and I bet 80% of the clients that they work with are like people like us where you don't have to like lie and spin. Yeah, we're always on our best behavior. Yeah, it's just you know, regular stuff, let me find a good opportunity for you and connect to you. So I was overstating. And I think that's just the far edge of the celebrity end of things.

Gotcha. Because I just got to thinking about what if they're listening? I don't want them to think I didn't think they were doing a good job. You did a great job. Way to back off of that one, Chuck. I got one more little thing on Jim Moran, Moran. You just said Moran. M-O-R-A-N.

I think Moran. Not the way the French say moron. He was known as the master of the publicity stunt back in the day. Like, he did things. What his big thing was to take a saying and try and disprove it, like for a company. So he literally went to Alaska on behalf of GE

to sell a refrigerator to, well it says an Eskimo, but I guess an Inuit, is what you would say today. He walked a bull through a China shop in New York City. How'd that go? It was a stunt. I think they broke some things. He got on a horse for a politician shop in New York City. How'd that go? It was a stunt. I think they broke some things. Oh, man. He got on a horse for a politician

and changed directions midstream on the horse, like rode it through a river and changed directions. Like, you can do this. And then in 1959 for the premiere of The Mouse That Roared, the great Peter Sellers movie, he opened an embassy. Remember the movie was about a small country that declared war on a big country?

Because they wanted to declare war on the US and then surrender and then get financial aid from around the world Their economy was in trouble. But they ended up winning or something. I don't remember. He opened an embassy in Washington for a mythical country. Yeah Speaking of by the way, I finally finally saw Dr. Strangelove. Oh, really? Great movie. One of the best. It's up there for sure.

Oh man, one of the best satires, let's say. It is a great movie. Great movie. And Peter Sellers, man, just... He did great, but also, I mean, like, George C. Scott was amazing as well. He was amazing, and the guy I can't remember his name that played the Colonel or whatever. The one who lost his marbles. Yeah. Yeah, he was good. He was so good everybody was

Slim slim chills or slim pickings slim pickings chills. Yeah, there's chilly chill wills Was another like what country? Western actor Chill wills, I think is his name. Chill Wills? You'd recognize him if you saw his face. Okay. Chill Wills.

Alright. Of course Chill Wills makes an appearance in the How Publicists Work episode. You got anything else? No, I got nothing else. Thank goodness. If you want to know more about publicists, you can type this word in the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com. And I said search bar so it's time for listener mail.

I did have one more thing. What was it? That movie America's Sweethearts, did you ever see that with John Cusack? No, I know who you're talking about. Billy Crystal has played a publicist to A Pain in the Butt, Hollywood Couple. Oh, best portrayal of a publicist is on Seinfeld. The mom from that 70s show, remember she played Seinfeld's publicist? Oh, she was?

Yeah. She tried to get the airline pilot kicked out of Jerry's show and ended up getting him kicked off with a. I think it's the one where Kramer's at JFK or LaGuardia. He's making bets on arrivals and he ends up using the son of Sam mailbag as collateral. Right. Great episode. But the mom from that 70s show played Jerry's publicist.

Kitty. Yeah. Who's also in Friends. What was she in Friends? She played Phoebe's half-brother, Giovanni Rubizzi, played his girlfriend or wife. Oh, yeah. Which is a weird, like a mismatched couple. That's odd and I think they were

They got her to be a surrogate for them Okay, when Lisa Kudrow got pregnant in real life. I think that's how they handled it. We have watched a lot of TV All right, I'm gonna call this one We were actually right and this lady was nice at a dinner party. How's that for a subject line? Hey guys, have a little story. I was at a small dinner party where the host was making his own sea salt. The topic about, it's one of those dinner parties. The topic of kosher salt came up, so I dropped a fact from your salt episode that kosher salt is actually just salt used for drawing blood out of meat to make it kosher not salt blessed by a rabbi

And a fellow guest disagreed to which I responded quite sure about this The host then said raise your hand if you're Jewish and the guy that disputed me raised his hand felt rather embarrassed While he explained to me what kosher means and that salt also goes through the same kosher process that would never explain how. I backed down and didn't try to defend the fact that I just told. It's not that I doubted you guys, though I jokingly said I'd write an email to complain, but it's because appeal is disrespectful to correct someone on their own heritage. Good move. Yeah. I also didn't want to start any petty debate with someone at someone else's dinner party.

Also a good move. So I decided to take in the embarrassment while he was explaining what kosher is, and at the same time eating his bite of pasta with chorizo. Ha ha ha! Hope you find this amusing. Please keep up the good work. If you're reading on the show, please give a shout out to my friend Amber, who introduced me to the show, and that is from Chloe Sissay.

So wait a minute, Chuck, were we right and the the guy was wrong? We were right, the Jewish guy was wrong. Because I looked it up today just to be sure. Yeah. And apparently kosher salt is kosher because in fact they said it should be called koshering salt. Yeah, yeah. Because it's used to make things kosher. It is not the salt itself, it's kosher. It would have kept Chloe out of that kind of situation. Chloe, it sounds like you have a lot of tact and dignity. Yes. Congratulations on that.

It sounds like the other guy's a bit of a blowhard. I'm not ruining the dinner party. So that is from Chloe in Sydney, Australia. Thank you. If you want to get in touch with us, we want to hear about all of your misadventures out there based on Stuff You Should Know. You can send us an email to stuffpodcast at howstuffworks.com and as always join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. kind of thing where there might be this underlying edge of self-sacrifice as martyrdom. If you're never filling, you're telling yourself a story and you're actually avoiding what you should be doing. You got to get in, you got to get your hands dirty. Listen to A Really Good Cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Brendan Patrick Hughes, host of Divine Intervention.

This is a story about radical nuns in combat boots and wild haired priests trading blows with J. Edgar Hoover in a hell bent effort to sabotage a war. J. Edgar Hoover was furious. He was out of his mind and he wanted to bring the Catholic left to its knees. You can now binge all 10 episodes of Divine Intervention on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Are there any pictures of you online? Then you could already be in a massive police database without even knowing it. Clearview scrapes together images from Facebook, from LinkedIn, from Venmo accounts. I'm Dexter Thomas, host of Kill Switch, a podcast about how living in the future is affecting us right now.

Police, they are trusting the software with this magical ability to lead them to the right suspect. In this episode, we dive into how cops are using AI and facial recognition, and sometimes getting it wrong and putting innocent people behind bars. So if your accuser is this algorithm, but you're not even being told that it was used, let alone given any of the details about how it works, listen to Kill Switch on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.