Stuff You Should Know - Selects: Operation Mincemeat: How A Corpse Fooled the Nazis

Episode Date: June 19, 2021

In World War II, a secret department of British ‘corkscrew thinkers’ hatched a plan to use the cadaver of an unclaimed homeless man to turn the tide of the war in the Allies’ favor. It worked. Learn all about it in this classic episode. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Munga Chauticular and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to

believe. You can find in Major League Baseball, International Banks, K-pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me and my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, it's me, Josh, and for this week's SYS Case Selects, I've chosen our episode on Operation Mincemeat from February 2016. It's a really great example of English drollness pulling through for the rest of the world, and it's featuring Ian Fleming, or Ian Fleming, depending

on your preference, and Rawl Dahl. It's just a bonkers history episode all around. So I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. There's Jerry Rowland. This is Stuff You Should Know. Chuck. Yo. I'm 39 years old, and I still can't say my own name correctly because of my stupid thick tongue. Ooh, you're gonna be 40. Yeah, soon. Crazy. Yeah. Used to make fun of me, and now you're old. Well, you're still older than me. I know. None I can do about that. It's cool, though. Yeah. You're aging very well. Yeah. No, you're aging really well. But you mean the teeth falling out, the weight

gain, and the gray beard? I still say you're aging very well. I appreciate it. Yeah, let's see your hair. Take off your hat. I still got good hair. Boom. Look at that. I got hat head now. Beautiful. Okay. Yeah, I think I'm bald. Some people do. Oh, really? Like you're always wearing that hat. I don't know. Suspicious people? Yeah. Like the drummer for the chili peppers. Anthony Quedas. Flee. Nope. The guy from James Addiction? Nope. I don't know them. Not John Prashanti. Chad Smith. The guy that looks like Will Ferrell. I thought that was Will Ferrell. He's always got that hat on backwards. And he's bald? Oh, yeah, totally. Brett, Michael's bald. Remember, he always wears a D-rag because he's super bald. So I get why people

are suspicious. If you're a public figure that has a patented hat piece, then it's probably because you're bald, but not in my case. What a weird way to start the show. Especially this show. Operation Mint's Meat, which is a ghoulish, gallows humor, awesomely, World War II British name for this operation. Yeah, this will live alongside our Nazi spies and invading Florida podcast. And the History Girls covered this very topic as well. Yeah, man. There's nothing I love more than Little Known History. This is it, but this is great Little Known History. Yeah, and this shouldn't be Middle Known because it was after the Trojan War, maybe the largest and most successful military deception plan in history. Well, there is also, have you seen that

documentary Ghost Army about Operation Fortitude? No. They used a bunch of blow-up tanks and planes, like inflatable tanks and planes to make it look like there's a whole ally division over here. So that we could invade Normandy more easily. That's like a Looney Tunes cartoon. Awesome. But yes, this ranks up there with literally with the Trojan horse. It's that ingenious and that wonderful. Yeah. But so let's set the stage, right? Okay. So in early 1943, the war was very much undecided. Yeah. It could have been anybody's. Like Europe was under the control of Hitler. Yeah. Huge amounts of Europe. They called it fortress Europe because the Nazis had just overrun the place, right? Yeah, they were dug in. And the allies knew that they needed to get into Europe

to topple Hitler or else like they weren't going to win the war. Sure. So Churchill suggested attacking Europe's underbelly, which is maybe Italy, Greece, Sardinia. He called it the underbelly. Not very flattering, but he called it Europe's underbelly. So everybody, the allies, the Greeks, the Nazis, the Japanese, the people in Hawaii, everybody knew. Yeah, they weren't American quite yet. Okay. Everybody knew that the allies were going to attack somewhere in that area. Yeah. Come up through the Mediterranean. Even Hitler feared this the most, which was key. Right. And I mean, everybody knew the allies were coming and they were going to come there. But this land mass, this area of land and sea is large enough that you can't just be like,

oh, they're coming down there. We got it covered. Yeah, we'll cover it all. You need to know kind of specifically where they were covering. And there were just a few places where they could have come. One was Greece. That was where Hitler always suspected. Yeah. One was Sardinia, right? Yeah. And then another was Sicily. Yeah. And in 1943, I think January, the Allied Powers met in French Morocco and held a conference, the Casablanca conference. Very sexy name. Yeah, it really was. And they said, okay, we're going to invade Sicily this July. We're going to call it Operation Husky. Now we have to do everything we can to not let the Nazis know that that's where we're going. Yeah. And that actually hatched eventually what's called

Operation Mint's Meat. Yeah. You know what? Studying this stuff. And I'm not a big war buff, although I'm getting more so. But reading up on this stuff, like the old wars, are so much like the board game risk. Yeah. That it's startling. Yeah. It's literally, when you look at this stuff, it's like moving troops to where you think people are going to attack you. Right. And rolling the dice a bit. And if you're right, then great. If not, you're screwed. Very much so. Which is why it's such a huge shift that we're seeing now in moving to unconventional warfare. Yeah. That's scary stuff. Yeah. I think pretty much all war is scary. Yeah. Well, of course, I'm not saying like Normandy was a cake walk or anything because they knew

what was going on. Right. Man, I watched Save and Private Ryan again the other day. God. It's crazy. That thing's almost a snuff film. It's not as bad as We Were Soldiers, which is a snuff film, but it's, I never saw that one. The Mel Gibson one. Yeah. Dude, it's, it's the most graphically violent mainstream movie ever made. Really? Yes. Wow. Yeah. Like, there's a part where they're, they're, they have a shot, a camera shot over this guy's shoulder. Right. Uh huh. So his helmet's in the, in the near foreground and that guy takes a hit to the head and like blood spray covers the camera lens for the next like little while. Wow. His brains just cover the camera. Man. It's disgusting. Did you like saving Private Ryan

again though? Yeah, it's great movie, but it is like really like violent. That's another thing about getting older is that stuff affects you more and more. The more you come to terms with your own mortality, the more valuable life becomes, the more valuable even a character in a movie's life becomes. You know what I mean? That stuff gets to you. Agreed. It's called growing up, my friend. I'm becoming human. Isn't it gross? Yeah. All right. So on September 29th, 1939, there was a director of British Naval Intelligence named Admiral John Godfrey and he distributed something called the Trout Memo and it was written by his assistant Lieutenant Commander Ian Fleming. Familiar name? Yeah. Creator of James Bond. That's right. The

guy and I think most people know that he served at this point. Yeah. But if you didn't, that's a nice little factoid for you. So he wrote the trout memo and they called it the trout memo because they pointed out in the intro that the trout fisherman fishes very patiently, but he changes venue frequently. Yeah. And he changes his bait very frequently too. And so they wanted to, they're charged with deception. They wanted to come up with all these different ideas, all this different bait and venue changes that they could come up with. Yeah. And this was a time too. We should point out that spying is always vital, but man, in World War II, it was going on all over the place in a huge, huge part of the war. Right. So we need to do

one on the enigma machine, by the way, at some point. We do. Because that's one of the unsung heroes in this operation. Absolutely. All right. So with the trout memo, Ian Fleming wrote ... Well, co-authored 51 different operations suggestions. And number 28 was one called a suggestion, parentheses, not a very nice one. The following suggestion is used in a book by Basil Thompson. I'm so pleased that you said basil. I said a basil. Yeah. In fact, that was a $1937 novel, the Milliner's Hat Mystery. And he was actually a World War I spy. Oh, really? Yeah. It's all coming together. So he was a spy writer that Ian Fleming, the creator of James Bond, dug. Crazy. So that's where this originates. Sorry, I'm getting excited. That's right. The following

suggestion is used in a book by Basil Thompson. A corpse dressed as an airman with dispatches in his pockets could be dropped on the coast supposedly from a parachute that had failed. I understand there is no difficulty in obtaining corpses at the Naval Hospital, but of course, it would have to be a fresh one. So the idea is let's get a dead person, let's dress them up like a soldier, give them some sensitive documents that leak this invasion. Fraudulent. Fraudulent. Yeah. Very important that leak the invasion of Greece, which is not really happening. Yeah. And they're going to mount up troops there and we'll actually go in Sicily. They're going to find this body. They're going to think they've stumbled upon this great happy

accident and we're going to fool them. So yeah, that was the whole idea. That was the general basis of it. And Churchill loved the idea because apparently he liked what he called corkscrew thinkers. Right. Because he knew Hitler thought in a straight line. Yes. And by corkscrew thinkers, I think that would be our equivalent of outside the box. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So Churchill was like, this is great. I love Churchill. Let's drink some scotch and do it. Yeah. Let's look like a bulldog while we do too. Yeah. So the idea was roughly outlined by Ian Fleming and then the Churchill's corkscrew thinkers, the XX committee led by you and Montague and... Chumlee. Yeah, which is his name is not spelled Chumlee. No. How's it spelled?

Chumlee. Are you ready for this? Yeah. Charles C-H-O-L-M-O-N-D-E-L-E-Y pronounced Chumlee. Yeah. And apparently when he met people, he would say, Lieutenant Charles Chumlee, C-H-O-L-M-O-N-D-E-L-E-Y. He would spell it out. Would he really? Yeah. Are you making fun of me or is that for real? No, no, no. He was a very quirky guy and that's how he described himself as toothpaste as if it had been squeezed from the tube. Like he'd self-described. He would go hunting with a revolver like bird hunting. He's a weird guy. I actually watched a quickie buzzfeed video on this and they pronounced it Charles Chulamundale. Did they really? Yeah. Nice. I'm glad we did our research. Exactly. Shout out to Buzzfeed. So you and Montague, right? Yeah, the other guy. He is

noteworthy in a number of ways too. Apparently he's just the greatest guy ever. Most interesting man on the planet. Yeah. And he actually wrote the book, the first book on Operation Mint's Meat, because he was one of the people who came up with this and implemented it. The man who was never there? The man who never was. Got right. Which became a movie too. Yeah, of the same name. Yeah. Starring Montgomery Clift, I believe. No. Starring Cliff Clavin. Cliff Clavin. Cliff Webb. But not Montgomery Clift. No. Those two are virtually interchangeable though. Sure. So you and Montague was already notable because at school he and his brother had created the rules for ping pong. No way. Yeah. I did not know that. Among other things. And his brother equally

interesting, equally rambunctious, went on to become a spy for the Soviets. Oh wow. Yes. So he turned? Yes. Against England? Yes. Wow. Against everybody except for the Soviets? Well, Montague was formerly a barrister, an attorney, and this is why he actually did not go serve on a ship. And the other guy, Chumlee, never flew a plane. One was Air Force, one was Navy. And apparently Montague was, as an attorney, was very good at just seeing all the angles. So they said you, sir, are perfect for this job. Nice. me in this situation. If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh god. Seriously. I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there

for you. Oh man. And so my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep. We know that Michael and a different hot sexy teen crush boy band are each week to guide you through life step by step. Oh, not another one. Kids relationships life in general can get messy. You may be thinking this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen. So we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Mangesh Atikala. And to be honest, I don't believe in astrology. But from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life in India. It's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're

going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention because maybe there is magic in the stars, if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, major league baseball teams, canceled marriages, K-pop. But just when I thought I had a handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world came crashing down. Situation doesn't look good. There is risk to father. And my whole view on astrology, it changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the iHeart radio app,

Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Chuck. Yes. So we have the rough outline that Ian Fleming came up with, the XX committee led by you and Montague and Charles Chumley. Yeah, the part of MI5, I believe. Okay. Said we're going to take this particular idea and really run with it. And like you said, they were going to... Well, the first thing they did was start setting about creating a backstory. Yeah. Well, they had three months, so the clock is ticking at this point. Yeah, because here's the thing. They set the invasion. Right, in January. Yeah. And they set the invasion for July. Yeah. Now, you needed enough time to plant this corpse,

this fake dead courier into Nazi hands and give with enough time so that the Nazis could digest it, analyze it, decide it was truthful, and then react the way you wanted them to, which meant that they had no later than May or else this plan was out the window. Yeah, you wanted them... The ultimate goal was to have the Nazis put their troops in the wrong place and that takes time. Right. So they looked around and they decided that the best place to carry out this operation was Spain. And Spain during World War II was allegedly ostensibly neutral. Sure. But they had a lot of Axis sympathies, a lot of connections to Nazi Germany, and there was a particular Nazi agent, a spy, working in a port called Huevla, right?

Sure. And his name was Adolf Klaus. Yeah. And Adolf Klaus was known to be very methodical. Yeah. Pretty brutal and ruthless. Yeah. Extremely gullible. Yeah, he was a straight line thinker. He was. He wasn't one that could think outside the box and think maybe this is a elaborate hoax. That guy didn't even own a real corkscrew. Yeah. You know? Like they targeted this guy. Cut the top off of wine bottles. Yeah, they specifically targeted him. Which is amazing. So they wanted this guy who was fairly gullible but also known as like a very respected Nazi agent in Spain to be the one who came up with this corpse and cadaver. That's right. So before they ever had any corpse or cadaver or anything like that, Montague and

Chumlee start setting about creating a backstory. And they created this guy named Major Martin. Yeah. William Martin. That's right. And they created Major William Martin and they created this whole persona. And this wasn't the first time they'd done it. They'd actually, they had chops with this kind of stuff. Yeah. So they had created a fake spy network that made Nazi Germany think that they had a whole double agent network in the UK and all of them were fictitious, not real people that you and Montague and Charles Chumlee had created these fake personas. Amazing. And it fed the Nazis misinformation through these people that didn't really exist. So they took that understanding and that thinking of what it takes to create a fake persona

and they set about creating one for Major William Martin. Yeah. And if you, there's a great BBC documentary on this and they interview a lot of the players, including a lot of the women who worked at MI5 in the office. And they were all just so delighted that they all described this as like the most exciting adventure they'd ever had. I'm sure it was like something out of a spy novel and they were living it. Right. And so they all had great fun creating these characters, these made up people. They wanted to give him a fiance because the idea is that they find this body with what, not only these documents in a briefcase, the important documents, but to make it believable, he had to have believable what they called pocket litter or wallet litter.

Right. Which is, if you find any person on the street, ask them to open their wallet. You're going to be able to tell a lot about them. Sure. So just stuff to legitimize it. So they said, let's give him a fiance. And all the women in the office wanted to be the fiance. Oh, yeah. So they all submitted photographs. They picked this one lady, Jean Leslie, secretary. Okay, that's the lady on the beach? Yes, picked her in a bathing suit on the beach. So this was going to be planted on his body. They all wanted to write the love letters back and forth, but they picked a woman named Hester Legert, the head secretary of MI5. And she wrote, even though she was a spinster, she wrote all these like heartfelt love letters. The first couple drafts

were really dirty and they were like, you gotta tone this down a little bit. Is that what you think happens in a relationship? She's like, no, not me, the fictitious lady. So everyone's really excited in the office. Chumlee is wearing what would eventually be the uniform of Martin every day to give it that worn in look. Awesome. Montague actually ended up having an affair with the secretary who gave him the photo as a fiance. Okay. They had a real life affair as Bill and Pam. Pam is the made up fiance. It got a little weird. That is a little weird. Like they wrote each other love letters, had a real life affair calling each other Bill and Pam. So there was some like strange role playing going on. I'm sure. He was married at the time.

His family had been shipped to America. So he was not doing the right thing there. Jeez. He was, he was a louse in that department. Well, you know, also, um, Rawl Dahl, the guy who wrote James and the Giant Peach and Charlie and Chocolate Factory, he was a spy for the British. He was in the British military and his whole job was to basically bed the wives of American officials here in Washington. Really? Yeah. Did he do so? Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Oh, he made his way through Washington society. Wow. Apparently with great zeal. All right. So they're cooking up this backstory. They get other great things for the wallet litter like theater ticket stubs and an overdraft letter from his bank and just these things that make

it seem like super realistic. Right. And what else? I think they gave him a St. Christopher Medal. Maybe they wanted to strongly imply that he was Roman Catholic and that'll come up very, it'll become very important in a minute, right? Yes, very much. So they've got this backstory and apparently like this, they were working feverishly on this stuff, having the weirdo affair, wearing the uniform, all that stuff before they'd even gotten final approval, just because they didn't want to stop work and then have to pick it up feverishly. They wanted this to keep going. So they finally got final approval from Admiral Godfrey to carry out this thing for real. And when they got final approval, they said, okay, we need a body. Yeah. And they figured no problem.

They were looking at first. They needed somebody who had relatives that didn't care what happened to the body after death and could keep their mouths shut. They needed a body that was of military age. Sure. Didn't have any signs of visible trauma. Right. Or disease. So they couldn't have been run over by a bus. Right. Or died of scurvy. Sure. And that preferably they would have died of pneumonia. And the reason that they wanted them to die of pneumonia is because they were going to make it look like this guy had been in a plane crash, but had survived the plane crash, but had drowned at sea. Right. And if he had pneumonia, then his fluids would be filled with lungs so that when the Spanish conducted an autopsy on him. So that when the Spanish conducted

their autopsy, they'd be like, this is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. I've never seen fluid filled with lungs. But that's how much fluid there is. The problem is, is they didn't get their hands on a guy with pneumonia and they didn't even know exactly where to get a person at first. It wasn't until they turned the guy who ran the morgue at St. Pancras hospital, which is the worst hospital name of all time, they turned him and got him to assist them that they finally got their hands on a body. Yeah. His name was Sir Bentley Purchase, which is a great name. Great British name. And it was a, he was a coroner of the largest mortuary at St. Pancras. Terrible. And he had apparently a wicked sense of humor. It was pretty complicated to give directions

to his office. So when he gave Montague the directions, he said, or you could just get run over by a bus. Nice. Man, the British during wartime were, they're having a blast. Their sense of humor was wonderful. So they got Bentley Purchase and he said, I've got a dude. His name is Glendor Michael. Yeah, that is not how that's spelled either. No, it is G-L-Y-N-D-W-R. Super Welsh. Yeah. He was a Welshman born in 1909. He was the son of a coal miner. His father killed himself by stabbing himself in the throat. I hadn't read that. Can you imagine a worst way? And it didn't say like slit your throat. It said he stabbed himself in the throat. Right. Which is weird and sad. Jeez. So his dad died when he was a teenager. Mother died when he was 30.

Alcoholic had a rough go because of the depression and was basically killed himself by ingesting rat poison. So that is not necessarily resolved. Whether it was suicide? Yeah. So the Bentley Purchase wrote down that he killed himself. Yeah, it was ruled a suicide. Okay. But the way that he ate the rat poison, it was on a crust of bread. So he was hungry? They wondered. So he may have been so destitute that he ate a crust of bread that he found in an abandoned warehouse and it was smeared with rat poison and that's what he died of. Wow. But they found him in this cold January night in 1943 in this abandoned warehouse in London and he had just eaten some rat poison, but he survived for two more days. Yeah. And so Bentley Purchase got his hands on him and said,

I think I found your guy, dudes. Yeah. And they did. There were some issues, one of which is they needed a photo of the guy for an ID. He didn't have any photos. Oh God. And every time they took a picture of the dead guy's face, they were like, he looks like a dead guy. Yeah, really? So they scoured. I can see your fingers holding his eyes open. So they scoured London looking for a look alike and eventually found a guy, a fellow intelligence officer who looked just like him. Awesome. So they used his face. Awesome. For the ID. It's all coming together. Yes, it is. I'm sure they were like, wow, Providence is really smiling on this. Yeah. And if you're feeling bad for Glendor, just hang tight. Yeah, I still think you can feel bad for Glendor. Well, sure. Talk about a rough

life, man. Yeah. Geez. Do you remember that one Saturday Night Live where Robert Duvall was like super special guest who wasn't even hosting or mentioned? No. He just showed up on this game show called Who's More Grizzled? No way. And he talks about like, it was him and Garth Brooks. How did I miss that? And he talks about how one cold winter his wife died and he had to keep her out in the barn until the ground thawed so we could bury her out back. What? Yeah, it was just some weird like that. It wasn't even really funny. It was more just like, wow, that really is hard. But the whole game show was Who's More Grizzled? Yeah, sure. Anyone? Of course. Because Robert Duvall. Yeah, he's more grizzled than Garth Brooks or Chris Gaines. Yeah, even yeah.

Yeah. Poor Garth Brooks. Not poor Garth Brooks. What are you talking about? I'm talking about the Chris Gaines thing. He chose to do it. He's a wealthy man. Yeah, I don't feel too bad for him. I think that was evidence that he was surrounded by yes men at the time. Yeah, maybe. That was a weird thing though. Yeah. He faked a soul patch. Oh, that wasn't even real? No. I mean, even if it was real, it was part of his character. It's like, sure. I thought you meant it was Sharpie. Maybe. Okay. The hair was definitely colored with Sharpie. All right, so where are we here? We've got a body. We finally got the photograph of them. Yeah, which is, that's amazing. I didn't know that part. Yeah. And there's another thing. We found this awesome, a military analysis of it.

Yeah, that's kind of cool. Somebody wrote a military analysis of this. I don't remember who, so I can't give them a shout out, but we'll put it on our podcast page. But they point out that one of the reasons this was so successful, this operation was one, these guys at XS committee, XX committee just had free run to break the law, bend morality, do all sorts of stuff. They just were able to go do their thing. But the other thing was is that they really kept this a lid on this stuff. And it was all disseminated on a need to know basis. So when they had this guy, they had them, they had, they got Glenduer, kept them on ice for three months as they finished his backstory. They're running up against like go time. And then I think in February or March,

April maybe, I'm not sure of the date, do you know? What happened? When they finally carried out Operation Mint's meat. Let's just say spring because I know that they kept them on ice for a few months. Yeah. And they, so they're up to the point where the, the decomp is about to give away that this guy didn't just recently die. Yeah. And that was a big fear that the Spanish coroners would be able to tell too. Okay. Which will come up in a minute. Okay. And they're also getting to the point where they're reaching the end of the amount of time that they needed to give the Nazis to absorb this mince information. Sure. So they finally, they, they get the guy's persona in place, they have the body, and now it's time to actually carry

out the operation. And like I was saying, they kept a lid on all this. So it was a need to know basis. So they got their hands on a sub commander who could keep his mouth shut. And they gave him a metal cylinder with the corpse of Glenduer Michael, now Major William Martin. Yeah. When you say sub commander, you mean submarine? Yes. Not a commander below regular commander. Yeah. That's submarine commander. Yeah. They gave him the cylinder and they said, we're going to tell you what's in here. Do not tell anybody else. So apparently the people staffing this sub thought this was some sort of weather buoy. Yeah. It was marked optical instruments. But you're right. He was the only one on board supposedly that knew there was a body

inside. Yep. And they put a life jacket on them, stuffed them in the cylinder, put them on the sub and took them over to Spain under a, on a submarine. Well, let's back up for one second too. Okay. Because we, we forgot to cover the main letter in the briefcase. Oh yeah. Really important. This was the, the, all of Operation Mint's meat. It did not hinge on theater ticket stubs or bank overdraft letters. That's merely pocket litter. It hinged on a letter hinting strongly that the invasion was going to come up through Greece, Sardinia. Right. And that was the other thing too. It wasn't like official document. Invasion is going to come through Greece. Yes. It was a letter from one general or admiral to another high ranking guy.

I think General Nye, they, they composed a bunch of different letters themselves. And finally they said, why don't you write it? Yeah. In your own words, in your own language. In your own handwriting, everything. So it really was written by this, this high ranking US military official or British military official who, who, who wrote this fake letter. And he made a joke about Sardines. A terrible joke. Which was the little hint. Right. That was just clever enough to work. Right. And so in it, it basically says we're, we're coming up with that, you know, we're going to strike through Greece. That's where the invasion of Europe's going to be. Yeah. But we're also going to tell everybody that Sicily is the cover. Right. Right. And this was

a stroke of genius. Oh yeah. Because in this, this false letter, not only does it show that they're coming through Greece, which they weren't. Yeah. But it says that Sicily is the cover, which would make the Nazis think that if anyone ever did actually leak the real invasion plan of Sicily. Yeah. The Nazis would think that that was misinformation. Dude, it was so ingenious. That's crazy. And I think about here now, Chuck, we get to the point where we should talk about the enigma machine and the role it played. Right. Yeah. Well, basically we all know that the enigma machine was the code breaking machine invented in the UK to decipher. Well, the enigma machine wrote the code, I think.

Oh, it wrote the code. Yeah. And then deciphered code that was they gotten. They deciphered it at Bletchley Park. But I think the enigma machine was the actual code writing, the encrypting machine. Okay. I could be wrong, but okay. Well, so we definitely need to do a podcast on that because we're mixed up already to get it straight. But at any rate, the long and short of it is in Beckley Park. Was it Beckley Park? I always say Bletchley. Oh, is it? Was there an L in there? I draw the whole ugly word out. They basically had they could, it was like reading the Nazis email essentially on a daily basis, on an hourly basis. Hourly basis. They knew exactly what was going on. So they would know if they were buying this whole

thing as it happened in real time. But even before that, they were able to craft this, this misinformation based on the Nazis assumption. So everybody wants to hear that their assumptions, that their beliefs are correct. Yeah. People are more apt to buy that things that confirm their suspicions or their beliefs already, right? Yeah. Hitler was worried about Sicily. He was. So he already thought that Greece was going to be where we invaded. Yeah. And then secondly, we knew that he had heard rumors that Mussolini was going to be toppled soon. So he was reticent to commit troops to Italy, Sicily, right? So this revelation that came in the form of this letter, this false letter, completely supported everything that Hitler and the Third Reich believed

as far as this European invasion was going to go. And we were able to do that thanks to the Smarties at Bletchley Park, right? Yeah. And this letter too, here's another little tidbit, they put a single eyelash in the fold of the letter. So they would know when they eventually got this letter back, if there was no eyelash, they would know that the Nazis had in fact opened it. Right. And because the idea was they would open it and reseal it and act like we never saw it. Right. But there wasn't that eyelash and they'd know. Nice. So rudimentary, but it worked. Oh, yeah. So should we take another break? Let's take a break. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions

arise or times get tough, or you're at the end of the road. Okay, I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yeah, we know that, Michael. And a different hot sexy teen crush boy band are each week to guide you through life, step by step. Oh, not another one. Kids, relationships, life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody,

yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen. So we'll never ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Mangesh Atikular. And to be honest, I don't believe in astrology. But from the moment I was born, it's been a part of my life in India. It's like smoking. You might not smoke, but you're going to get secondhand astrology. And lately, I've been wondering if the universe has been trying to tell me to stop running and pay attention. Because maybe there is magic in the stars, if you're willing to look for it. So I rounded up some friends and we dove in and let me tell you, it got weird fast. Tantric curses, major league baseball teams, canceled marriages,

K-pop. But just when I thought I had to handle on this sweet and curious show about astrology, my whole world came crashing down. Situation doesn't look good. There is risk to father. And my whole view on astrology, it changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, I think your ideas are going to change, too. Listen to Skyline Drive and the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so Chuck, we are at sea aboard a submarine. That's right. It's a chili down here in dark. It is. And you're not supposed to be smoking cigars. No, you're not. Despite Gene Hackman doing it and Crimson Tide.

Yeah, what a bad idea. So we're off the coast of Spain. We're off the coast of Huevla. Not an easy word to say, but it's a port in Spain. And again, this is where Nazi agent Adolf Klaus. Yeah, they kind of want to float the body right up to this guy's backyard, basically. So they did. He was released from this canister. I read somewhere else that the canister itself was fired on with submachine guns on a sub. So you could just call them machine guns there. And it was sunk and the body drifted off toward Huevla. Oh, really? Oh, I thought they just dumped the body. Yeah, I'm not sure. Because I found a book on Google Books. It was like from 2007,

and it was a history book. And it made it sound like the people working on the sub all knew what was going on. But that's in stark contrast to everything else we've seen. So they may or may not have sunk the weather buoy. Who knows. But either way, Major Martin was released into the current that took him right to Huevla. And he went, I think he was found by a fisherman that same day. Yeah, and at this point, the Brits started sending telegrams about a very important missing person. Frantic. Yeah, like they wanted these to get intercepted, obviously. And that worked as well. This is all really going exactly as they had planned. So they sent the British Council in Spain, in Huevla, or in Spain to Huevla, and said,

this is really important. You need to get your hands on the briefcase. Find out what happened to this guy, and get your hands on his briefcase. Yeah, and Klaus is going briefcase. Right. His monocle popped out. And the British Council in Spain didn't even know what was going on. Yeah. They saw everything from the same aspect of reality that the Nazis saw. Need to know basis. Exactly. So the British Council are trying to get this briefcase kind of frantically. And the Spaniards were like, you know what, we are just going to keep this on lockdown for now, as we investigate the whole thing. But we got it covered. Remember, we're neutral, so your briefcase is safe. And the British Council said, well, okay, one thing.

This is very important. This guy was Roman Catholic. You can check out the metal in his pocket. Yeah. So please don't dissect him. It's against Roman Catholic beliefs and traditions to dissect your autopsy body. I hadn't heard before, but apparently in the 40s that was the case. And Spain was way down with that. Super Roman Catholic. And they said, oh, yes, of course, we won't do that. So apparently that's how they got around the fact that Glendur hadn't died of pneumonia. Yeah. And the other way they got around it was they had a plant in the office who talked to the coroners and was like, guys, it's hot. And this body is going to start rotting real soon. So how thorough do you really want to make this? And they said, you're right. Let's go have some

wine. Some, what do they call it over there? Wine. No, what's the fruity? Sangria. Yeah, let's go have some Sangria and knock off early. And that's exactly what happened. Thanks to the plant. So this is going on. There was a small wrinkle at this point. The briefcase went to Madrid. Spain wasn't going to hand it over to anyone. But the Brits were trying to get it in the hands of the Nazis. And they were actually having trouble getting it into the hands of the Nazis until a guy named Karlo Kulintal. He was Hitler's most trusted guy in Spain. He got wind of it and kind of took over for Klaus. Was like, I'm going to get this briefcase. And he did. Nine days later, after the body washed ashore, the letter ended up in the hands of the German.

The German, you know, worked his way up the chain. Yeah, to Hitler himself. Yeah, I went to Goebbels first. And Goebbels, even in his diary, they found later had suspicions about it. Oh, yeah. Because he was a corkscrew thinker. And he was like, wait a minute, this is pretty convenient. Yeah, this is really fishy here. But apparently he never said anything to Hitler. He got distracted. He wrote about it in his diary. But the documentary said his thinking was, well, if Hitler believes it, then that's good enough for me. Huh. That seems like a bad idea. Yeah. And Homeboy, Carlo Coulenthal, there was always a lot of speculation on why he just ran with it and didn't ask more questions because that was his job. And it turns out his grandmother was

Jewish. And he was very paranoid about this being found out. So he thought, this is it, I've come upon the greatest find of the war. And it's all mine. So no one will ask any questions about me after this. Huh. Wow, that worked out really, really well. Yeah, very convenient. And thanks to the Enigma machine, they knew pretty quickly that this was working. And I guess Montague and Chumlee sent Admiral Godfrey a transmission that said, Operation Mintsmeets swallowed rod, blind, and sinker. Yeah. It's so cool seeing these old, like, apparently you're not supposed to say elderly anymore, by the way. We got an email. I knew that. Or seniors. You're supposed to call them older adults. Seniors. I didn't know that

that was the thing. Yeah, older adults. So they're interviewing these older adults, these British ladies that are in their 80s now. And they were just all so still excited. They said, when they, because you know, with the Enigma machine, they were basically reading their emails. Right. And they were like, they knew they were buying it. They're buying it. Yeah. And everyone was just like flipped when that came through the office. It was just like party time, basically. So the Operation Mintsmeets really, really worked really well. So much so that apparently, Hitler moved a Panzer division, which totals about 90,000 troops. Yeah. From Sicily to Greece. Yeah. And all the artillery and armaments and everything, not just soldiers. So long Sicily,

we're going to Greece. Yeah. And then up came the Allies through Sicily. 160,000 Allied troops stormed Sicily. And only 7,000 lives were lost, which is still a lot of people who died. But apparently, as far as military historians are concerned, and I think the military at the time, that was a way fewer lives lost than they expected. Yeah. Had they had, Hitler not swallowed Operation Mintsmeets. Yeah. They expected 10,000 casualties in the first three days and 300 boats sunk in the first two days. And it ended up being 1,400 in that first week soldiers and about a dozen ships in that first week. So that's not bad. Yeah. And not only that, but it had another effect. Big one. The Soviets. Yeah. So this is not something that they teach

in American history classes in U.S. high schools that much. No. The Operation Husky, it was that penetration of Europe's underbelly, right? Yeah. And suddenly, Hitler said, I'm about to storm Russia, but I really need these troops down here in Europe because I got big problems. Yeah. And that allowed basically Russia to topple the Nazi regime. And Mussolini get toppled by the Brits. Yeah. It completely changed the face of the war. Yeah. This one idea cooked up by me and Fleming in part. Isn't that crazy? It's pretty awesome. You got other stuff? There's a book called Operation Mintsmeet by a guy named Brett McIntyre. All right. It came out in 2010. That's a very good, well-cited book that we inadvertently cited here or there. And then

there's The Man Who Never Was, which was written by you and Montague, which is not just about Operation Mintsmeet, but also about basically how to carry out deception plans. All right. Remember earlier when I said don't feel too bad for Glendor Michael? Yes. Even you said, well, the dude died possibly of suicide because he was penniless and going nowhere. Yeah. Or hungry. Or feel bad about that. But 50 years after he was buried in 1997, the British government added they basically buried him with military honors. The Spanish did. Oh, yeah. He was buried in Spain. Yeah. But the British, it came from the Brits, I think, to do so. His headstone came from the Brits, but the Spanish buried him with like a 21-gun salute and everything. Yeah. Says Glendor Michael served as Major William

Martin R.M. Royal Marine. Pretty cool. Yeah. So this alcoholic drifter who never served in the military. Never served in the military. Buried with full military honors. Yeah. And completely changed the face of the war thanks to being a body that fit the bill. And if you like ghoulish photos, there's a very famous photo of him being propped up in his life jacket in uniform as they were basically loading him into the cylinder that you can see by searching, I'm sure, Major Charles Martin. That's right. Charles Martin. No, William Martin. William Martin. Something like that. I still want to know what's going on with that weird role playing there with the... Dude, that's odd. Bill and Pam. Yeah. Yeah. Because they interviewed the lady and she was just like,

oh, it was all very exciting. Yeah. That's a great British lady accent. Older person. Yeah. Yeah, older adult. Yeah. Oldy. If you want to get, or no, if you want to know more about Operation Mincemeat, just type that word into your favorite search engine or go check out the Stuff You Missed in History class episode. And as I said, Stuff You Missed in History class, it's time for Listener Mail. I'm going to call this bread crust. We had that discussion about the crust and the end pieces. So this is from a dad, dear Chuck and Josh, your discussion of the in slice of bread and the body language episode brought ridiculous grin to my face as I walked around my neighborhood. Don't worry though, my neighbors have thought me to be eccentric for

years now. Look at that guy smiling. What a weirdo. He must be a pinko. When our daughters were still tiny, my wife and I realized we were doomed to 18-ish years of eating bread crust pieces ourselves if we didn't figure something out in quickly. Our solution, we started calling those pieces the Lucky Piece. And boy, did we rook our innocent, trusting toddlers. Turns out your supposition is correct, Chuck, at least for children under 11 years old. Even if their honor students is mine where they will fight you for the right to eat that savory, oh so desirable piece of luck. Nice idea. Younger adults. Rock on, guys, and please keep my goofy grants coming. That is from Ted. C-O-I-N-E with a little, uh, what do you call that? Coine. Coine. Coine. Coine.

Is that a accent, uh, goon? No, I don't know. I didn't take French. Uh, legume. What do you call that? A legume? Accent legume? Yeah. So thanks, Ted. Uh, I'll just call you Coine. Yeah. Thanks, Ted. Coine. Coine. I don't know. Let's say Coine. Uh, yeah, thanks a lot. Ted contacted us on Twitter. Oh, he did? He wanted to send us this email. So there you go, Ted. Wow. Um, if you want to get in touch with us, you can try all the ways like Ted did. You can contact us on Twitter at S-Y-S-K podcast. You can send us an email to stuffpodcast.howstuffworks.com. You can join us on facebook.com slash stuffyoushouldknow. And you can hang out at our luxurious home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio.

For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Munga Shatikler,

and it turns out astrology is way more widespread than any of us want to believe. You can find it in Major League Baseball, International Banks, K-pop groups, even the White House. But just when I thought I had a handle on this subject, something completely unbelievable happened to me and my whole view on astrology changed. Whether you're a skeptic or a believer, give me a few minutes because I think your ideas are about to change too. Listen to Skyline Drive on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.