Stuff You Should Know - Selects: Slime Mold: 0% Mold, 100% Amazing

Episode Date: September 20, 2025

If you’ve ever wandered past what looked like a pile of dog barf on a log during a hike in the woods, you’d just seen slime mold - one of the most perplexing organisms on Earth. Listen to this classic episode and get as amazed as Josh and Chuck were when they recorded it.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey there, everybody. It's Josh, and for this week's Select, I've chosen our June of 2021 episode on slime mold. It's actually a powerhouse episode, and it's filled with maybe more amazing facts than any other episode we've ever recorded.

It's just like mind blow after mind blow, after mind blow. So, strap on your old time. tiny football helmet and prepare for slime mold. I really think you're going to enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of IHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Wayne Brian. And this is Stuff You Should Know. No producer. It's right.

It's just us, buddy. We're going to do it. We're going to be just fine. Jerry took an early vacation for Memorial Day. I know. She's always doing stuff like that. She knows how to live. And we're stuck with slime mold in her absence.

I like slime mold. I know you would love slime mold. Yeah, I think it's pretty interesting stuff. It's very Josh Clarkie. It is kind of Josh Clarky, so much so that, as I was researching, this like i mean i just kind of generally knew about slime mold that it exhibited you know some weird level of intelligence here there but i didn't know much about it and then as i was researching i was like i'm kind of into slime mold now yeah like all the different kinds of it i like regressed

into like you know the nerdy eight-year-old i never was yeah and then you're like let me clark this over to chuck and see what he thinks yes uh yeah i like slime mold too i think it's kind of cool uh let's do it okay chuck i'm ready All right, everybody, stand back because we are doing it. Yeah, and I think you could file this. I mean, it's not an animal slime mold. I guess we should just tell you right away. It's not an animal.

It's not a fungus, even though you would think it's a fungus. If you saw it on the forest floor, and we'll get to all this stuff. But it feels like an animal, one of our animal episodes anyway, sort of. Yeah. I was going to save the fact that it's not an animal or fungus or the very end, But sure, we could do it at the beginning, I guess. You mean, like, literally in the last minute? They were like, I still don't know if this is an animal.

Is it a dog in disguise? You know, everything we just told you about? It's not an animal. It's not even a fungus. And then we just go to listen to our male. So what is it, though, besides super ancient, as in, like, maybe one of the very first living things? Well, it's a protist, actually, they figured out.

And protist seems to be, well, it's one of the five main kingdoms, animal, bacteria, plants, fungi, and then protists. And protists are typically single-celled organisms like amoeba or protozoans, things like that. And they have, I couldn't find out exactly when they did it. But they fairly recently, I guess in the history of biology fairly recently, reclassified slime molds from the kingdom fungi over to the kingdom protista. Yeah, which is interesting because for years they had been studied by mycologists who were

fun guys. Yeah. And they found out later, they were like, you know what? Sorry, these should really go over to the protistologists. And they said, we kind of like these guys? Can we keep studying them since we have been? And they said, sure. And the protestologists were super pissed.

They were. They're still actually not over it. They're frequently T-Ping the academic halls of the mycologists whenever they get the chance. Yeah, it's just very bitter battle. So that is pretty cute that the fungi people are still studying slime molds, even though they're not fungi. But there's, you know, some good reasons why they were originally considered to be fungi. Mostly that they're like these big kind of clumps,

and there's all sorts of different ways that they take shape and form depending on the species. They're different colors. Some of them form kind of net-like honeycomb structures. Some of them look like dog barf. One of the main ones we'll talk about today. looks a lot like dog barf. They look like a fungus, though. Like if you were walking in the woods and you saw this,

nine out of ten people would say, well, it's got to be some kind of fungus. Yeah, especially because if you're staring at them, you would have to stare at them for about five, six, ten hours to see that they have a huge difference between them and fungi. Yeah. They move. They just move so slowly.

It's not apparent to the naked eye. But if you film these things with time-lapse cameras and speed it up, you can see, oh, they very clearly move about from place to place. So that's a big differentiator between them and fungi. But one of the reasons they thought they were like fungi that they were fungi is because they produced spores to reproduce. Right. And I mentioned their ancient origins. They are about a billion years old. And like I said, could be like as soon as there was stuff, it seems like there was slime mold.

eating the bacteria that breaks down other stuff that dies. And that's what they feed on. Bacteria, mold, yeast, basically anything that decomposes dead things, slime molds in Gulf, I think it's not called photography. It's called phagotrophy. Oh, yeah. That's not how I was going to say it. What were you going to say?

Fagotrophy. Yeah, but I think you're absolutely right. Well, you know us. It wouldn't be honest if we didn't. probably both get it wrong. Right. But that's when you basically surround something and engulf it and just sort of like move it into your body,

just like sort of absorb it basically. Yeah, which is another difference between slime molds and fungi because fungi actually break the food down and then absorb the broken down nutrients. But the fact is, if you have things that are decomposing other things like bacteria, molds, yeast, the things that crawl onto or grow on, dead people, dead trees, all that stuff.

Sure. Break them back down into their constituents. So the fact that the slime mold feeds on other things, it makes it a really important part of the food web. Sure. It's part of the nutrient cycle because other things come along and eat the slime molds. There's apparently a kind of beetle that has a specialized jaw that allows it to slurp up slime molds. I think some kinds of insect larvae eat them.

And so it just kind of keeps going. But they're really important. part where you just have these microbes that, like, the beetle couldn't get to, that they're able to basically get that energy from, you know, the bacteria by eating the slime mold. Right. And even though other protists can carry disease, slime mold is quite human-friendly, actually. You can eat the stuff if you want. There's a dish in Mexico and some parts of Mexico called caca de Luna, which is exactly what

you think. It is poop of the moon, moon poop. And they eat this stuff I even looked online to try and get a good recipe But it's not on like the pages of Martha Stewart living Like it's you got to dive deep into Reddit and stuff like that To get some good recipes it seems like Almost almost smacks of urban legend

But I'm seeing it in different enough forms Yeah That I think it's probable that it actually is a thing The thing that scares me is that people say like in some regions of Mexico It's like, that's not super specific, you know? True. And we pointed out they weren't animals or plants, but we definitely need to point out that slime mold is also not mold.

No, not at all. That's right. So one of the really amazing things about slime mold is there's a couple of different kinds, as we'll talk about in a second, but a whole bunch of different kinds of species, one type of slime mold can get really big. I mean, some of them can get up to the size of, like, a medium or pizza, large pizza, I guess, depending on whether you're getting ripped off by your pizza guy.

But, like, 12 inches in diameter. Yeah. That's enormous, right? So you're like, well, that's pretty cool. It's a big blob of mold. Well, put your sock garters on because I'm about to blow your socks right off your feet. Some of those types of slime mold that are as big as a pizza are one giant cell. Yeah, I mean, this is truly amazing.

The plasmodial slime mold, which is, you know, I guess you could call it one of the true slime mold is it has all the stuff like as if it were undergoing cellular division and all the different nuclei, like millions of nuclei organelles, cytoplasm, all that stuff. But it's just not, it doesn't have cell walls. It's not individual little cells. It's just it splits and lives inside this giant fortress wall. Yeah. It's almost like if you took all the cells that should have made this giant blob up as a multi-cellular. cellular organism and just kind of broke them open and dumped all the contents into this blob.

Yeah. And then through the cell walls away, that's what you would have. It's super interesting. It is. And it's really kind of straightforward if you just hear it. But it's also really easy to just keep going like, wait a minute, why? Why is it like that? And how is it like this?

What's going on here? Which is one of those things that it just makes slime all its own thing. And we're still learning about this stuff, you know, every day. Yeah. And, I mean, it gets, there's quite a few times in here where we're going to say, and here's where it gets even crazier. That's right. This isn't super crazy, but the other kind of slime mold, or the other big broad category is the cellular slime mold. And these are lots of individual single-celled organisms.

But the kind of knockout fact about them is when they're stressed out, if they don't have a lot of food around, they can join up together. and sort of look like one of those plasmodial slime molds, but it's not. It's called, I guess, pseudoplasmodial. Yeah. Because it's not a real one, but it basically says, all right, we're going to all come together

to try and find food together. And then when they do have food, they can be like, all right, we'll just go along our merry way and split up again. Yeah, which is pretty nuts. They also will come together, apparently it makes it harder for predators,

like those specialized beetles to eat them. Because those individual slime molds, can be, you know, a millimeter in size or smaller. Yeah. So it's pretty easy for a beetle to eat that. It's much harder for a beetle to eat something the size of, like, you know, a quarter, right? So they actually do come together. They come together to move.

They also come together to reproduce and produce spores. But the characteristic of this that what makes it a pseudoplasmodium rather than actual true slime mold is that they retain their cell walls, their individual cells, when they come together. They just kind of loosely formed together and a really good way of understanding what these cellular slime molds create is kind of like a swarm. Yeah, that's a good way to put it, I think.

Or what's the... God, that's my favorite thing when the birds do that. What's that called? A flock of seagull's haircut. Sure, that's it. Boy, you threw me there. So the plasmodium is covered by a layer of slime. and you're going to want to put a pin in this

because when they do move around, they leave behind these little collapsed tubules and it looks basically like, not exactly like a snail trail, but sort of like a layer of slime. And you're going to want to remember that for later on because these actually kind of serve as important little markers.

As a matter of fact, write it down everybody. We'll wait until you get a pen and a piece of paper. Pull over. Go inside the CBS closest to you. Yeah. Put on your mask. Buy a pin. Yep.

Buy a piece of paper. Pay 10, 12 times what you should have paid for that pen. Really? Oh, my God. Pin markup is big at CVS? I think the general markup at CVS is fairly high. Oh, they're like, we get them in here for the aspirin, then we really juice them with this ballpoint fence.

That's right. I hope there's no CVS ads in this episode, but we'll find out. What's a good deal at a drugstore? Is there like a... There's not. There's zero. Oh, they all mark it up? Yeah, everything's marked up.

Because it's like a convenience kind of thing. You sound like a grandfather. It's all marked up. Back of my day, you just go to a regular grocery store and buy your pens. Well, you pay normal price. From the pin factory, straight from the man who made it. That's right. You know, when I was little, we would, for a short time, I'm not sure why we did this.

Because it's not like we lived out in the country. And this is a very old-timey country thing to do. We bought our milk direct from a farm. Nice. And we would pull up and, uh, I would get to walk inside this huge walk-in cooler, like, next to a loading dock, and I just thought it was, like, the coolest thing in the world somehow to get that fresh milk. Sure.

Then they back the cow up, and it make a beeping sound, and then they just squirt the milk right into the back of your station wagon. That's right. They mark it up first. Slosh your way home. So where were we? Okay, if you do see this stuff in the woods, if you ever hiking along, and you see a big or medium-sized pizza, like yellow block.

or orange blob, they can be red, they can be white, they can be maroon, very rarely that can be black, blue, or green. But usually it's sort of yellowish and orange, and you see that in the forest, you're probably looking at a slime mold. Yeah, especially if it's really hot out and it just rained. Yeah, the worst thing in the world for me. You can also see them like on your grass too. Apparently if it gets really rainy and hot,

slime molds will actually come out of the woods into your grass and be like, oh, this is pretty nice. And they aren't going to do any harm that's not a problem for your grass. It just looks kind of gross. It's certainly not going to hurt you or your pets. And then eventually it'll dry up and turn to kind of a gray or tan powder and blow away. And that means that it just turned into spores and it just reproduced all over your place. Yeah, I think maybe we should take a break because right now people are probably like,

dudes, you promised greatness here. And so far it's a little humdrum. What? So put those sock garters back on because when we come back, we're really going to start knocking them off with some of these amazing facts. Just like great shoes, great books take you places.

Through unforgettable love stories, and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of, like, butterflies. I'm Danielle Robeye, and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and IHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us, on the page, and off. Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry,

and add way too many books to your TVR pile. Listen to bookmarked by, Reese's Book Club on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Books is the official audio book and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit apple.c.O. forward slash Reese Apple Books to find out more. Hi, I'm Jennifer Lopez, and in the new season of the Overcover podcast, I'm taking you on an exciting journey of self-reflection. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote

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or wherever you get your podcast. Hola, it's Honey German, and my podcast, Grasias Come Again, is back. This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition?

No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned in like over 25 years. Oh, wow. Wow, that's some real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah. We've got some of the biggest actors, musicians, content creators, and culture shifters sharing their real stories of failure and success.

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I won't say whitewash because at the end of the day, you know, I'm me. But the whole pretending and cold, you know, it takes a toll on you. Listen to the new season of Grasas Has Come Again as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Okay, Chuck, we set them up. Let's knock them back down. So here's one cool fact, is that slime molds basically can do the equivalent and do the equivalent of throwing themselves on the grenade. They will sacrifice themselves to save others.

And these are things without a brain or a central nervous system. It's not like they think, hmm, I'm feeling empathy today for my. fellow mold sure and so I'm gonna save everybody because I've come across some infectious bacteria but what they do is they they come across it they engulf it and then they say let me go and they cut themselves off from the pack from the swarm and detach themselves and die of that infection but save the rest of the the group and my heart will go on plays in the background as they get further and further away.

Exactly. But that's altruism. Yeah. Which is pretty amazing, considering, like you said, they don't have a brain or anything like that. So how are they doing this? We'll get to that later. So what about, tell everyone about the dictistelium discoidus? Discoidis.

Disco-Itees. That's one of my favorite words now, disco-idies. Just because it has disco in it. So this is a kind of cellular. slime mold, right? So it's made up of a bunch of different individual organisms that come together. And when they come together, they practice altruism to some degree as well because some of them will basically be like, okay, I'm dead now, I'm dead, and we're going to turn into a bundle of cellulose fibers. And that cellulose is going to connect with other slime mold cells that have

died and turned into cellulose and come together and form a stalk. And then at the top of the stalk. A bunch of different slime mold cells, they're called slugs when they're individual like that, will climb up the stalk and then they'll turn into spores. And then in that way, they're sticking up out of the ground and a passing animal will come and they'll stick to it and it'll get a ride to greener pastures. But to do that, some of them have to die to form the stalk to let the spores grow on top of, which is pretty amazing itself. It is. And you know, we mentioned that they move, you know, they're not, they don't just sit around and wait for someone to drop a pepperoni near their pizza shape in the woods so they can eat it. They got to go where the food

is, and they either move by these little appendages that like little feet like appendages, those are the cellular slime molds, the individual single-celled organisms that can come together, or, and this is crazy, the other kind, they move as one big mass because, you know, there's no cell wall going on. So they just sort of expand and contract the cytoplasm to kind of gush their way along the ground very slowly yeah which is really neat to see because when they're especially when they're searching for food which is basically all they're ever doing like everything that they do is either to get away from some noxious stimuli or to go toward food usually to go toward food sounds like us it basically yeah i don't like that

smell no wonder we love them but i like that smell i'm going to go toward that so um They make these amazing kind of, they look almost like sea fans. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. They look very fractally, and they just kind of, they fan out is the best way to put it when they start to go look for food. And when they do find food, they start moving toward it. The cell walls contract and that cytoplasm goes that way. And next thing you know, over a very long period of time.

Next thing you know, five days later. The slime mold has moved. And actually, slime molds, if you don't, like, they're totally fine living in petri dishes for as long as you want them to. As long as you feed them, if you stop feeding them, they'll just get out of the petri dish and start looking for food elsewhere. So they'll escape. Yeah. But, I mean, again, it's not like you're just sitting there watching this thing crawl out of its petri dish. It's you leave overnight and you forget to feed the thing and you come back and half of it is out onto the table or something like that.

something like right out of Gremlin's. Kind of, yeah. And I think he said they move at about a millimeter an hour, but some of them, actually, if they're really cooking, can go about an inch and a half in an hour, which... That's really fast. I mean, it doesn't sound fast, but when you're talking about what we're talking about,

it is pretty fast. Yeah, and I saw that a couple of places. Most people cite something like a millimeter an hour. I can't remember which one goes that fast. But, yeah, I mean, you can't see it moving when you're staring at it, but over time you can for sure. Sure. Or, you know, if you're just really patient and you can lock in on something, you might be able to see that.

So when they started figuring out, in the early 2000s, Japanese researchers were some of the first to, like, really study slime molds as showing some sort of intelligence. They figure this out from, you know, from watching these things actually move about. And when you film them at, like, high speed and then replay it, you can see their movements, are deliberate in a lot of ways. They're not just blind, dumb movements where they happen on to food. They clearly can sense food somehow or some way, and they spread out.

And they seem to spread out, and again, in a really deliberate way. And so some researchers started to test slime molds to see what they were capable of. One of the first researchers was a Japanese scientist named Toshiyuki Nakagaki. Great name. I think so, too.

And Dr. Nakagaki, which is even better, built a maze, like a pretty simple maze, but an actual three-dimensional maze in a good-sized petri dish put what has come to be known as probably the smartest slime mold, fyserium polycephalum, which is kind of like the rock star

of the slime mold world these days. Put a fyserium in it and said, go to town, go find your little favorite oat flake treat, which is their favorite food. Yeah, and the key here is there were four different routes to two different endpoints where this food was. It wasn't just like there's only one way to solve this maze. And so they put the little oat flake at these endpoints, and the microorganisms that grow on the oat flakes is what they're after. It's not like they love oatmeal or anything like that.

Right, right. And so he put them there and studied them. and over the course of hours, these things basically learned to get to that food in the quickest, fastest way every single time. Yeah, like it could conceivably get to it, like you said, four different ways, but that fast way was the way it would just, like that's impressive. That's definitely noteworthy. You can write multiple papers on that kind of study. And so another Japanese researcher came along and said, hold my sake. a researcher named At Sushi Taro from Hokkaido University.

Did you like that? Yeah, that's good. And Dr. Tiro said, all right, what about this? What if we take some oat flakes and basically make a general map of the neighborhoods in Tokyo and see what the slime mold does with that? Put a little slime mold in a petri dish with these oat flakes that kind of mimic the neighborhoods of Tokyo and watch it go. I think over the course of like four or five days, right? yeah and you might think cool it does what it does and it goes after that food in the most direct way possible which is what it did but here's where it gets genuinely amazing is they went back and they overlaid a map of the current Tokyo railway commuter system the subway system sure and they laid it over this grid of this slime and it was almost a perfect match isn't that nuts?

That's, I mean, I had to re-read that like five times to even believe that that's what happened, that this slime basically figured out the most efficient route to get around essentially Tokyo. Yes, which, I mean, humans had figured out too, but it took teams of human engineers and a very long time for them to figure this out, right? So the slime mold was just like, this is nothing. What else you got? You got any more cities that are more densely populated with more neighborhoods? Because I'll just make your subway maps all day long, basically. And they're like, no, Tokyo is probably one of the most dense.

Right. It's like, okay. I saw another similar kind of bit of research truck where they actually used oat flakes to signify ancient Roman cities in the Balkans. Wow. This is crazy. It's like an archaeological study. And they put some, they sick some physerium. on it, and Fizerom on it, and it mimicked ancient Roman roads that had been lost, were very obscure,

had largely been forgotten, and ones that were well known in the Balkans. It mimicked these Roman roads, like things that people have been like, okay, this is the best route from this city to this city. The slime mold did basically the same thing, and apparently revealed some lost stuff. Yeah, I mean, I guess it could also, it's interesting, like if it does, doesn't match up if they do an experiment like this, does that mean, like, the humans get it wrong? Like, can they use this as a test and be like,

sorry, the slime mold is spoken? I guess so. I kind of like the octopus picking the World Cup. You know, they always take the World Cup away if the other team that the octopus didn't do it ends up winning, you know? Well, I wonder if you, I mean, and we'll get to real applications of this, but I wonder if they could do something like that where, let's say they look at the Tokyo system in a couple of places it did match.

They're like, we totally should have gone this way. Yes, I feel like that that is the direction that people are kind of going in, that they could conceivably use this for planning new stuff, you know? Wow. So every city planner will have a slime mold researcher at their behest. Yeah, I mean, like, this is crazy. Why not? It's pretty cool.

All you have to do is have some oat flakes in a petri dish, and you're good. So I think we should take another break. What do you think? Quite frankly, we want to eat some Oat Flakes right about now. I'm kind of in the move for that, too. We'll be right back. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance.

And it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay, and this is bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and IHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us, on the page and off. Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TVR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the IHeart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts are wherever you get your podcasts. Apple Books is the official audio book and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. Visit apple.c.O. forward slash Reese Apple Books to find out more. Hey, sis, what if I could promise you you never had to listen to a condescending finance, bro, tell you how to manage your money again. Welcome to Brown Ambition. This is the hard part when you pay down those credit cards. If you haven't gotten to the bottom of why you were racking up credit or turning to credit cards, you may just recrack. create the same problem a year from now. When you do feel like you are bleeding from these high interest rates, I would start shopping for a debt consolidation loan, starting with your local

credit union, shopping around online, looking for some online lenders because they tend to have fewer fees and be more affordable. Listen, I am not here to judge. It is so expensive in these streets. I 100% can see how in just a few months you can have this much credit card debt when it weighs on you. It's really easy to just like stick your head in the sand. It's nice and dark in sand. Even if it's scary, it's not going to go away just because you're avoiding it. And in fact, it may get even worse. For more judgment-free money advice, listen to Brown Ambition on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Janica Lopez. And in the new season of the Overcover podcast, I'm taking you on an exciting journey of self-reflection. Am I ready

to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time? I wanted to be successful. I wanted to be on my own, not just because of who my mom is. Like, I felt like I needed to be better or work twice as hard as she did. Join me for conversations about healing and growth. Life is freaking hard. And growth doesn't happen in comfort. It happens in motion, even when you're hurting.

All from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Honestly, these are going to come out so freaking amazing. Be a part of my new chapter and listen to the new season of the Overcomper podcast as part of the MyCultura Podcast Network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Okay. Did you just eat some MoFlake's? I did not. All right, we'll get you some Because here's the secret, everybody When we take a break

We don't really go take a break We should have had some crusty old Oat flakes on your desk And just eating them real quick I don't know, I can't see So, all right We've said that these things don't have brains They don't have, and I don't think we mention

It's not like they have It's not like they're jellyfish And they have some sort of weird neural net Right They got nothing like that at all Nothing. They have no way of generating consciousness in any form that we recognize. And yet, slime mold is teaching us to open and open our horizons in hearts.

Sure, to new ideas of what constitutes consciousness and intelligence. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like, it makes sense as a swarm, as a bunch of cellular slime mold makes sense. We're already familiar with the hive mind and, you know, the emergent property of a bunch of different things, you know, operating together. The real puzzler, though, is the single-cell plasmodial slime mold. That's one big, giant cell, and the fact that it behaves in ways that seem conscious to

some degree. Yeah. So if you want to kind of go back in time to where a lot of this research started, it wasn't actually in Japan, but it was in the 1960s, a physicist named Evelyn Fox Keller was curious if she could use math to model biological systems because they had had success using math to explain and expand our understanding of physics. So she was like, let me see if we can do this with biology. And someone said, well, you got to meet Lee Siegel. Lee Siegel is, got a little surprise for you. And Lee Siegel got together and said, oh, Dr. Keller, you need to meet our

friend, slime mold. And Dr. Keller was like, this is in 1960s. I don't know what slime mold is yet. And Keller and, sorry, Siegel said, oh, we'll just take a seat and let me tell you about this, which is dictio, dictio stellium, dictostelium, right? Dictio-stelium, discoidium. I think that's disco-idium. Discoidium?

Yeah. Okay. But it's the one we were talking about earlier that creates the stems. They sacrifice themselves to create stems for the spores. Right. And I think this was just significant because it was kind of like the first time

anyone had observed and fell off of their lab stool and could explain it to others. These pseudoplasmodiums. But what they were missing was they were like, all right, we see this happening and it's amazing. And how are they doing this, though?

And the very first thing they thought of is like maybe it's like an ant colony or something, and maybe there's like a leader or a pacemaker cell, or maybe a few of them, they get together, and they just sort of send out chemical signals to everyone else and say, go this way, and the rest

are just sort of the worker ants that follow along. Yeah, and they knew in particular that there was a chemical called cyclical AMP, which is related to ATP, the adenosine triphosphate, and that that was how

they were signaling, but they thought that that like you're saying that there are just a few signaling everybody else was responding and what they figured out is that that they had that totally wrong that there weren't leaders there weren't pacemakers who were in charge of like you know signaling and in effect making decisions for the group that it was actually like a group effort in that the the whatever um whatever cell or slug that they're called in this cellular slime mold swarm was closest to food, it would signal with AMP that, hey, there's some food over here. Let's all go over this way.

And that signal would just kind of be passed along through the swarm, through the cellular slime mold, and the slime mold would move toward the food and start eating. Yeah, and this was, you know, I mean, you can see why they went in that initial direction, because it made sense, and a lot of nature is organized with a top-down principle in mind. And humans often organized with a top-down principle, big business, government. It's just a, it's a system that we're used to seeing in nature and in people. And so it made sense that they went that way. And they never really thought about the fact that it could be like, no, it's a total bottom-up system.

And whatever is closest can send out these signals. Yeah. So instead of like a hierarchy, it's more like how a flock of birds operate. It's a flock of seagulls haircut operates where... They run so far away? Yeah. But it's the hair that's closest to whatever it's running from is the first to run and everybody else follows.

It's kind of like how a flock of birds will turn depending on, you know, which way they need to turn based on that bird making that decision and the rest of the flock basically following it. It's a bottom-up, bottom-up decision-making kind of thing. And so we started to learn a lot. We know a lot about bottom-up decision-making now as opposed to when these guys were working back in the 60s, I think. But in the 21st century, that whole idea of bottom-up decision-making or decentralized decision-making has become a real component in artificial intelligence design. Because if you've listened to the end of the world with Josh Clark, you know that one of the hardest things in the world to do is program something to understand.

everything because you have to input all the stuff it needs to know. Whereas if you can just kind of set up some sort of simple algorithm to let the machine think for itself, you finally got something. Yeah, and I would imagine, I didn't see this anywhere, but it seems like this might have some applications in nanotechnology as well, like the idea that we could program, you know, billions of tiny little nanobot bugs to clean the windows of your house every day. nice

like a lot of things collectively doing one bigger thing yeah am I off base there or could that potentially be a thing not at all

I think it totally could be a thing it's anytime you have a huge amount of things that you're trying to all get to do roughly the same thing but they need to not

you know redouble their efforts or replicate their efforts so you don't want one cleaning one part of the window and the other one coming over and cleaning the same part of the window that's already clean.

All you have to do is figure out how to teach them if this happens, do this. And if you can figure out how to strip it down to a basic enough algorithm that could conceivably be used for just about any situation, you've got the key to the universe in your hand. Like there's actually, we'll have to do an episode on it one day. But I read an article about a guy who was, I think, was a physicist back in the 80s who was like, I think the universe

is basically an operating system that is, that is, goes down to two, there's two bits. You could say it's black and white, one or zero, it doesn't matter, but there are two kinds of bits, and depending on the combinations that these things

form, everything else in the universe arises from that, including consciousness, planets, slime mold, everything comes out of these two types of bits that basically make up the fabric of space and time interacting with one another and increasingly sophisticated patterns.

Wow. And that is exactly what you're talking about. So if we can figure out what that computation is, what those algorithms are that give rise to larger and larger stuff, you can do anything. It's weird. You can do increasingly sophisticated stuff the more basic your algorithm is.

It's almost a paradox. Yeah. This is like Dr. Octagon stuff. Dr. Octagon? I don't know. Is that right? From Spider-Man?

Yeah, he was Alfa Molina, you mean? Yeah. Sure. All right. I like Al-Melina. I think he makes some really weird choices for parts. Oh, he's great. I'm sure if somebody's like, hey, we'll give you $10 million to play Dr. Octagon.

I'd be like, sure, you got it. Where do I sign up? Yeah, I need to get him a movie crush because he actually is friends of the network. He's a friend of the network. I think he's been on the Daily Zite Guise a few times. Oh, yeah. And, like, they booked him on some other comedy shows. I'm like, guys, throw a little Molina my way.

For real. Get that Molina spread all over, movie crush. You've been on Daily Zite Guys twice. I've never been on a movie crush once, too. I had Miles on the movie Crush the other day, and I was given him a hard time because they haven't asked me on and they think he wants you on twice. That's hilarious. Keep it up, Chuck. He was like, oh, no, man.

I was like, Miles, it's cool. Did he really, you flustered him? I feel like he was on skates for a second there. That's hilarious. I let him off the hook. I'm having Jack on next week, so I'm really like going full court press here. Yeah, Miles is like, man, beat beyond guard. Chuck does not pull punches.

It's funny because Miles, you know, as you know, is such a smart, smart guy. And just like having a conversation with him is always amazing. And then he comes on and he picks mall rats. What's his favorite movie? Was it really? That's his favorite movie. movie of all time, huh? I mean, that's what he picked, and he was like, hey, man, I never said I had good taste.

Nice. It was pretty fun. Do you have any hints of what Jacks is going to be? Well, I know it. It's Pulp Fiction because he had me save it like two years ago, and I just, you know, we kept slipping through the crack, so he's going to come on next week for Pulpiction. Very nice. All right, so let's get back to, I mean, we talked about how the DD, as we're going to call it,

moves around without the Pace-Maker cells. But that original true slime mold, the big single-celled one that's just made up of all the goopy cytoplasm, we didn't really talk about what they do. Because if you don't have cell walls, you're like, well, how's this stuff moving around? It's actually made up of what's called oscillating units. And so these units oscillate at different frequencies, depending what's going on, like where they are, and then what their little neighbor oscillating units are doing. and so when they go close to food they start oscillating and shaking like hey hey hey I'm near some food and then that just sort of gets that flow everyone else starts oscillating in a similar manner and that gets that flow of cytoplasm going in that food direction yeah and so the slime mold

effectively moves to the food because of that that oscillating unit that looks again like a fan spreading out going to find food and then finding it the slime mold moves toward it or like you said away from something that they don't like. Yeah, yes, which is pretty neat. So those are the two things. It's moving toward food or moving away from something. And one of the things that they found is that slime mold can actually learn and not only learn to like stay away from something, it can actually teach other slime mold to stay away from it.

Even slime mold that's never been introduced to it. Or alternately, it can teach, this is the really. the sock garter fact it can teach other slime mold that something that seems harmful is actually harmless yeah this is a pretty cool experiment yeah so these researchers put slime molds uh they built a little tiny bridge it was very cute and they coated this bridge in a noxious substance it wasn't harmful to them it was harmless it was like salt or something let's say and then they put the little oat flakes on the other side as their ultimate temptation. And so these first slime molds start creeping up to it and sort of dip in their little

toe in the water and saying, this stuff is pretty noxious. But then they learned, right, like, oh, okay, so it's not actually harmful. I can go across this stuff. And what they found was that it learned to cross this little bridge just as fast as slime molds that were placed on bridges that didn't have any. coding going on. Right. So it said, okay, this stuff's fine. It tastes gross. It's way too salty, but it's not going to hurt me, so I'm going to get to food just as fast, right? That's pretty amazing in and of itself. But here's where it gets crazy. Yes, right. We need like a ban or mad or

Noel to come in and say that. Yeah, totally. So they take the slime mold and break it apart and fuse it together with other slime molds that have never been exposed to this noxious stuff before they're called naive and the other ones are called habituated and those naive ones when they encounter this noxious stuff like a salt bridge for the first time they don't approach it with trepidation they go right across it as fast as the habituated ones that it's fused to yeah this is really weird that because this is the first time the stuff's encountering it and they think that somehow the habituated slime molds are passing on the information like no no we know it's gross but it's actually fine, to the naive slime molds.

And they figured out, Chuck, that it doesn't matter if you take three habituated slime molds and fuse them with one naive slime mold, or take three naive slime molds and one, just one habituated slime mold. It's going to approach us and move across it just as fast in either situation. Yeah, and then they also sort of figured out how long this took. So the naive slime molds, they separated after an aspect. hour of fusion with those habituated. I'm going to call them in the no molds. Okay. And it forgot. It forgot that the coating was harmless and it sort of had to approach it

with a little more trepidation. But if they had been fused for three hours or more and then separated, it remembered. I mean, technically can't remember, but they do have this weird sort of memory that works and I think they even figured out some of this snail trail stuff that they leave behind acts as sort of like a spatial memory because they come across this snail trail and say oh someone's already been here before me right so there's no reason to go research this area

because there clearly wasn't food there yeah and again here's your 10 minute reminder that slime mold don't have brains or neuron so all of this is just just astounding stuff that we're still trying to get to the bottom of. Like that habituation thing, they're like, we don't know. We have no idea. But we're going to go find out, and maybe in 10 years we'll be able to explain it.

Right. So eventually, you know, the people that are hip to the slime mold thing are like trying to spread the word. They're trying to spread the word to me like, this stuff is really amazing. They're doing TED talks on it. It was a really good TED talk on it, in fact. And some coders said, hey, wait a. minute, you know, they're doing all this amazing stuff like the overlay of the Tokyo Subway and it's lining up perfectly. What if we actually generated code of the slime mold and kind of reverse

engineered it and we could see what that look like and how we could use it? So, yeah, this one artist named Sage Jensen basically figured out or took, I don't know exactly who figured out exactly what the slime mold's algorithms were, but somebody wrote them down, and Sage Jensen came along and turned them into C++ code, and basically ran these things as like algorithms and found that these fractals started forming that look essentially just like slime mold moving across a petri dish

in search of food, which was pretty cool in and of itself. It was an art project, basically. But someone on a team, of astrophysicists heard about Sage Jensen's work and they used it when they were stumped trying to figure out how to map the invisible matter that makes up basically the structure of our universe that if we can just crack that nut we'll understand the universe exponentially better than we do now but we cannot figure out how to do it and so just like with the ancient roads the between the Roman cities or the Tokyo Subway map, someone figured out to use slime mold to basically try to

try to create the structure of the universe, this invisible, these invisible filaments. Yeah, these filaments that came out of the big bang. So I guess they went back to Sage Jensen and said, first of all, Sage, you use C++ code. Isn't it really just B minus code, if we're being honest? And he said, that's not how it works. Get out of my office. That was a great coding joke. Thank you.

It's my only coding joke. And I just made it up. It's the only coding joke, I think. No, I think it's not a bug. It's a feature. Oh, that's true. True dat. Old timey.

So, yeah, they went to Sage, and they said, you're an artist, but this is pretty amazing. I think we can apply it here. And they modified it, and what they did was, and of course, there's always oats involved. They put a model in place with virtual slime, mold cells, and they put it on a map with 37,000 real galaxies, and they used, I guess, virtual piles of food to represent the galaxies, and the bigger the galaxy, the bigger the

pile of food. And so they did this modeling through the coating and had the virtual slime molds seek out the most efficient way to reach this. And I guess in theory, they're hoping that they get a sort of map of the universe out of it. Yeah, so when the slime hole was finished, they all stood back around. That's amazing. How accurate is it? And they all just realized that they had no idea how to verify it.

But no, surely, like, I think what they're doing is they're taking this as an initial, you know, guide, and then they'll go back and try to figure out how to verify it. And maybe the slime mold did figure out the most efficient way to link together these galaxies. But that would be, I can't even put a word on that. of how impressive that would be if the slime mold recreated how the universe is invisibly linked together, the structure of it, you know? What if slime mold is God? What if we're asleep right now, and this is all just one dream, Chuck? The other cool thing they figured out with the slime mold moving around is when they were researching them,

they found that those mazes that they were running them through, they went even faster through the maze when they had some sort of noise, like a bright light or something, We said they like to go away from things they don't like. And that negative input of that light basically made them say, all right, let's pick up the pace and make these decisions quicker and get to that food. Stop fussing around. I don't like this light staring at me. I think we kind of blew some minds today. I think so.

My mind's definitely been blown. Did you want to cover the Amazon thing? Nope. Okay, good. That's it for slime old, unless you got anything else right now, do you? I got nothing else. We'll have to revisit this in 10 years. And thanks to Dave Roos for helping us with this one.

And since I said, Dave Roos, I think Chuck, it means it's time for listener mail. Hey, guys, I'm going to call this Night Trap response. I just laugh every time I hear those words together. I know, Night Trap. This is from Aaron. Hey, guys, just finished the Night Trap Video Game Show. Thanks for bringing it to everyone. I own the 25th Anniversary Edition.

Like you said, it's not a good game, but has a good game. moments. One other game worth noting is called Double Switch. It's of the same style and video camera control quality, and it starred Corey Haim, perhaps arguably a little better game, but still had the same thing going on, really. I'm sure your research finds lots of things that don't quite make it into the final show. Aaron, we did not know about Double Switch, so nice work there. Yeah. And Aaron says, I've listened to so many shows I feel that Chuck and I are some sort of long-lost brothers separated at birth. I generally agree with just about everything he says, and I'm always fully entertained.

It would be nice to meet you guys if you ever get another tour started and make it back to Michigan. Keep up the good work. I'll finish your book. And I have the pre-order poster in my office. Very nice. And I've converted friends and family. So that is from Aaron and Michigan. And we're definitely going to start touring again.

I would say probably next year, although we haven't really talked much about it. No, but we need to. It's definitely starting to get to be time to get talking, I guess. I've got to admit, I have not missed the traveling. I've missed being on stage, but not the traveling part. Well, you know, that's what they say. That's what rock stars say. It's not the heat.

It's the humidity. No, they say that, you know, you get paid to travel. You don't get paid to play shows. I've never heard that before, but it really makes sense. Yeah. If you can figure out how to get paid for both, then you're really doing something right. Good stuff, yeah. And if we get back to Michigan, we've already done Detroit.

We've had a lot of calls over the year for Ann Arbor, so maybe that's where we go. Yes. Well, who is that again? Aaron. Aaron, that's what I was going to guess. Thanks a lot, Aaron. That was a great email. Thanks for the Corey Haim reference and all that stuff.

And if you want to get in touch with us like Aaron did, you can send us an email to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of IHeartRadio. For more podcasts, My Heart Radio, visit the Iheart Radio app. podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone and there is help out there. The Good Stuff podcast, season two, takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a non-profit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join host Jacob and Ashley Schick as they

bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission. One Tribe, save my life. Welcome to Season 2 of The Good Stuff. Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The Internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us. I'm Bridget Todd, host of the Tech and Culture Podcasts or No Girls on the Internet. In our new season, I'm talking to people like Anil Dash, an OG entrepreneur and writer who refuses to be cynical about the Internet. I love tech.

You know, I've been a nerd my whole life, but it does have to be for something. Like, it's not just for its own sake. It's an inspiring story that focuses on people as the core building blocks of the internet. Listen to there are no girls on the internet on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I was diagnosed with cancer on Friday and cancer free the next Friday. No chemo, no radiation, none of that. On a recent episode of Culture Raises Us podcast, I sat down with Warren Campbell, Grammy-winning producer, pastor, and music executive to talk about the beats, the business, and the legacy behind some of the biggest names in gospel, R&B, and hip-hop.

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