Stuff You Should Know - Selects: The Collar Bomb Heist

Episode Date: February 15, 2025

The collar bomb heist is the crime caper that keeps on giving. Every time the story seemed like it was figured out, another layer appeared. Tune in to this classic episode to hear Josh and Chuck detail this very odd and twisty story. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to My Legacy. I'm Martin Luther King III and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King and our dear friends, Mark and Craig Kilburger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives. Join us for heartfelt conversations with remarkable guests like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter. Listen to My Legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. This is My Legacy. and your mess on Carefully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Got problems in your relationship? Come to me. Your best friend acting shady?

Come to me. Thought you was the father but you're not? Come to me. I can't promise I won't judge you, but I can guarantee that I will help you. Listen to Carefully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everybody, Chuck here, curating a specially handpicked, selected episode. This one's from May 2018, and boy oh boy, this is a good one. I forgot all about this, and this is part of our True Crime series. Not so grisly as far as, like, you know, it's not about an axe murder or anything like that.

It's about a heist, and I'd love me some heist. And this is called The Color Bomb Heist. ["The Color Bomb Heist"] ["The Color Bomb Heist"] Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. ["The Color Bomb Heist"] Hey, and welcome to the podcast.

I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Jerry's over there. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the True Crime Edition again. Yeah, we've done a few of these, right? True Crime is so hot right now. Hey, man, we were dabbling on the periphery of true crime when most of these people were wet in their diapers. That's right, man. That is right. I'm glad somebody finally said it. We were occasionally doing a poor job of covering true crime ten years ago.

Mm-hmm. That's right. We're going to do it again. That's right. We continue that great, rich history. Yeah, because true crime can be extraordinarily interesting, especially when you're talking about an extraordinarily overcomplicated heist that results in a man's bizarre death, death by bizarre means, and involves what really ultimately you could make a case as an unsolved mystery still today, even though it's technically bureaucratically been solved. A lot of people say, no, this thing hasn't been solved yet. You got homemade bombs, you got the scavenger hunt,

you got a crack dealer. Well, you gotta have a crack dealer. Got prostitutes, you got pizza. And yeah, and let's have a crack dealer. You got prostitutes. You got pizza. And yeah, and let's start with the pizza. You got a Geo Metro. Right. Which by the way, I just wanted to point out ahead of time, there is no more pizza delivery car 2003 than a Geo Metro.

A teal one, no less. Yeah, the thing is, it's almost like they rolled them right off the line in 2003, straight to a pizza place. With the pizza guy inside already. Yeah, and the little sign magneted on top. A little crooked. Yep. So the whole thing does start actually with a pizza guy,

a pizza place and a teal Geo Metro. And like you said, the whole thing starts in 2003 a pizza place and a teal geo metro. And like you said, the whole thing starts in 2003 in Erie, Pennsylvania. And there was a, and still is, I looked it up, there's a pizza place called Mamma Mia's Pizzeria. No one knows, but fine. Sure. It gets the job done, right? And at about 2 p.m. on August 28th, 2003,

a pizza delivery guy named Brian Wells, I think he was 46 at the time, he was about to end his morning shift when a call came in for two small sausage and pepperoni pizzas. And the delivery was, I guess, the opposite way of where Brian Wells was going to go on his way home. But he said, you know what, I'll take this one last order. And he walked out the door at about two.

And the next time that Brian Wells was seen in public again, he was entering a PNC bank branch just down the street from his pizza place a few miles up the road. And he looked a lot different than he did when he left the pizza parlor about 28 minutes earlier. Yeah. So first of all, he was walking with a cane, kind of a funny looking cane. And then under his t-shirt, he had clearly, and if you've seen the footage in the photos Which you can see

Warning by the way for video Yeah for the future. It's quite graphic. It's out there, but it is out there But he had a clearly some large Boxy looking thing it looked like he's wearing a shoe box around his neck with a t-shirt pulled over it. Kind of, but in the teller at the bank's defense could have been an artificial torso and she probably didn't want to draw attention to it. Yes, she was being very kind. Right.

So one thing I want to point out too, there's already a discrepancy. What we're like a minute into the story and there's already a discrepancy. What we're like a minute into the story and there's already a discrepancy. That shirt he was wearing over that boxy thing underneath his shirt said Guess on it. And I've seen that it was written somehow like in spray paint or marker or that it was an actual Guess jeans t-shirt. Oh really? So either an officially licensed or not licensed but whatever brand shirt either an officially licensed, or not licensed, but whatever, brand shirt, or a homemade, janky, spray painted version. Yeah, and if you look, the pictures don't really show one way or another.

Yeah, I couldn't tell. It looks more like it's homemade, and I looked up to see if there was a guest shirt that, you know, if I could find the actual guest shirt, it wasn't, couldn't. So I think it may have been homemade. Okay. Regardless, he's wearing this shirt that says Guess On,

and he walks up to the teller and he hands the teller a note. And the note says, I have a bomb. Get everybody who has access codes to the safe together and put $250,000 into a bag and bring it to me. I think he said you have 15 minutes to do this. Yeah, which kind of a long time if you're a bank robber. It is, it's like almost like luxurious amount of time. I would have said like 60 seconds.

Yeah, or this should have happened yesterday, chop chop. Right. So he stands back and waits, apparently grabs a dumb dumb lollipop out of the little basket while he's waiting. Because why not? And the teller says, sir, we can't get into the safe.

That's just not how things work. I'm sorry. But as a consolation prize, I'm going to put $8,702 into a bag for you right here and send you on your way. Okay? Yeah. And importantly, we did not mention he lifted his shirt up and showed this teller, this bomb, this, what's called a collar bomb,

strapped around his neck. Right. So he walks out of the bank, a free man, and the next time that he's seen in public is about 15 minutes later, and he's seen in public by some Pennsylvania state troopers who are on the lookout for this guy, and he's seen in public by some Pennsylvania state troopers who are on the lookout for this guy and he's still wearing that shirt he's still got the big bulge and he's standing around his Geo Metro parked in a parking lot

that is actually shared with that PNC bank and a McDonald's and he's in a parking lot right there so basically he left the bank robbery and went about a hundred to two hundred feet away from it. And that's where he was found like a full 15 minutes later. Yeah. So these, these, these coppers, these troopers come over and he says, Hey guys, this is a bomb around my neck. A group of group of black men chain this bomb around my neck at gunpoint,

force me to rob this bank for them. I'm not lying here. This thing is going to go off." So the cops call the bomb squad and they do, I saw the family of Wells is still angry about the fact that she says they did nothing to save them. But I would be too. By the way, we should shout out Wired magazine. Oh, yes, we really, really should. A lot of this came from a great, heavily researched story by Rich Shapiro from about eight years ago called The Incredible True Story of the Color Bomb Heist. So thank you, Rich, for your work.

But the dude's on the ground, he sit, I mean if you, I kind of remember this happening because when I went and looked at the still images I was like wait a minute I've seen this. And it's this guy sitting on the ground with this thing around his neck kind of just waiting seated on the pavement for about 25 minutes. He says very interestingly, like, did you call my boss at the pizza place? And then all of a sudden this bomb starts beeping fast, which is never a good sign. And when I was reading the story, I thought, well, that's just a ruse.

But no, this thing detonated and killed him. It blasted a hole in his chest. It did not blow his head off like the internet says. No. But it was a violent, awful death. Yeah, it was. And it was pretty quick. And then three minutes after the bomb goes off, the bomb squad showed up. So they, so he's dead, this guy, Brian Wells is dead. And the whole time he was protesting, he's like,

you know, I was forced to rob the bank, are you guys gonna get this off of me or what? Yeah, he said something like, did you call my boss? Because apparently he was a very loyal employee. He'd been working at Mamma Mia's for how long? Like 10 years or something like that? For years and years, and he'd only called in late once, not even sick, late once when his cat died, said Rich Shapiro in that Wired article. So it seemed like he actually was telling the truth,

that he had been abducted and forced to rob the bank and then had been a victim. I think the bomb going off really kind of put an exclamation point on his story that he was not a willing participant in this, right? Yeah, so the cops obviously check out that G.O. Metro and it's sweet, sweet styling and they saw his cane in there. Turns out the reason why the cane was funny looking is because it was also a gun. And it really looks a lot like a gun. Yeah, when you when you look at it. The bomb was clearly homemade. It had a couple of different parts to it. It was this this banded metal collar that he wore around his neck. It was like a lock to his neck. It had four keyholes and then a combination lock. Yeah, it was really locked to his neck.

And then an iron box with two pipe bombs loaded up, ready to go. And then interestingly, and this will figure, put a pin in this one, because this will figure in the case later, it had two kitchen timers in there in addition to an electronic countdown timer. Yeah, which was, I guess, the thing that started beeping faster and faster. Yeah, and then some decoy wires. You always got to have those if you're making a bomb. Sure, but I mean, that's pretty smart.

So there's decoy wires. There were apparently also stickers that said, like, don't do it or skull and crossbones or rat poison, whatever. Skinny and sweet. Yeah. Oh, that's a good nine to five reference, man. I just saw that the other night. So it was a homemade bomb, but it was by all accounts a well-made bomb too.

And it worked, which I think is one of the big questions about any homemade bomb is whether it will actually work or not. And this one worked with deadly effect. That's right. So the most important thing they found in this car, though, were some letters, some handwritten notes addressed to bomb hostage. So one of them said, I mean, these were instructions basically on what this guy should do, which further kind of cemented like, hey, this guy's probably telling the truth. It said, go rob this bank

of 250 grand and then very strangely outlined this little scavenger hunt basically to where eventually you will land upon the keys in combination to get you out of this thing by going all over town and finding these various hidden notes and at the last note, you will be able to free yourself. Yeah, the last one will give you the keys and the combination. But you better hurry because you have a limited amount of time. If you stop and think you're going to waste time, you're going to die. We can detonate this remotely and we're going to be following you.

It was written pretty crazily. Have you read any of the note? Oh yeah. Yeah, so like it's got a lot of, like just like a lot of jump cuts or jump scares in it, you know? Like it's like go do this and then go do that after that

and then don't try anything funny or we're gonna blow you up, you know? It has those every once in a while. And there's drawings in there of where he could find like the notes and all that. So that he made it as far as the first note, which was McDonald's. It was in that McDonald's that shared a parking lot

with the PNC bank. That was where the first note was. So he made it to that McDonald's, grabbed that note, and that note was directing him out of town to another note, and he didn't make it that far when the cops caught up with him. Yeah, so the scavenger hunt was, like you said, he had gotten just to the one place, so the cops then say, well, here's what we're going to do.

We're going to complete this scavenger hunt. They were like, whoa, you just blew my mind. That's some great policing. Should we take a break? Sure. All right. Scavenger hunt is just started by the coppers. We'll be right back. This is David Eagleman, host of the Science Podcast, Inner Cosmos.

For Valentine's Day, we're diving into the question, what is love from the brain's point of view? What does love have to do with how you were raised or the symmetry of someone's face or the smell of their underarms? Why does the character of love change throughout our lives? Why is heartbreak like drug withdrawal? And what does any of this have to do with sweaty t-shirts or rom-coms or monogamous animals and the future of love and AI? Join me for this week's inner cosmos for a deep dive into the neurobiology of love.

Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yo, what up? It's your girl Jess Hilarious. And I think it's time to acknowledge that I'm not just a comedian. It's time to add uncertified therapists to my credentials because each and every Wednesday I'm fixing your mess on carefully reckless on the black effect podcast network got problems in your relationship Come to me your best friend act and shady come to me thinking about cursing that one Thank auntie out at the next family gathering do it

But come to me before you did because I cussed all mine out before. You wanna fight your coworkers? Come to me. Baby daddy mad because you got a boyfriend? Come to me. Thought you was the father, but you not? Come to me. I can't promise I won't judge you, but I can guarantee that I will help you. As a daughter, a sister, a mother, and an entrepreneur, I've learned a lot in life.

So I'm using my own perspective and experiences to help you fix your mess. Send me a situation and let's fix it as a family. Listen to Carefully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network, I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to My Legacy.

I'm Martin Luther King III, and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and our dear friends, Mark and Craig Kilburger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives. Each week we'll sit down with inspiring figures like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Billy Porter,

and their plus one, their ride or die, as they share stories never heard before about their remarkable journey. Listen to My Legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. This is My Legacy. It was a moment that should have broken me, but just because of how I was raised and my bullishness and arrogance to want to be great hardened me.

It gave me a platform to be so singularly focused on greatness. We all have moments like this. Something happens that's supposed to break us. But it's in these moments that we discover what we're really made of. I promise you, if anyone knows this, it's me. I'm Ashlyn Harris. The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt

The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt

The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt The Scavenger Hunt the cops follow from the note that Brian Wells had to the next clue, and they found the next note, and that directed them to another place, even further out of town, to where they found the jar where the note was supposed to be, but the note was gone. Yeah, and they don't really know what that means. They didn't know if it was just something to keep them busy, preoccupied. They didn't know if the person who was designing the scavenger hunt got interrupted

or knew that the cops were around and they were doing it sort of in real time. But at any rate, unfortunately, the scavenger hunt just kind of fizzled out because that was kind of a cool part of the story. Yeah, it really was. It was like, it's one of the things that makes this, it's just an incredibly bizarre crime. Why the scavenger hunt? It's gonna keep coming up that makes this, it's just an incredibly bizarre crime.

Why the scavenger hunt? It's gonna keep coming up again and again, right? So when the scavenger hunt ran out, the trail actually went cold. The case started to get cold for a few months. The cops sniffed around Brian Wells, tried to figure out why him, what happened with him, and they went back to his place of employment, and

they kind of checked out the kind of person he was, right? Yeah, and they very smartly said, well, wait a minute, why don't we check out what that last delivery was supposed to be? There may be a clue there. And it was an interesting place. You could only get there by dirt road, and it was right next to a TV transmission tower in a kind of a remote wooded area. Right. And cops combed the area, found shoe prints that matched Wells. They found those classic

iconic Geo Metro tire tracks that everyone recognizes by sight. But there really weren't any more clues as far as the cops were concerned at that location. So where the cops had found a dead end, a reporter and photographer for the Eerie Times News went and did a little investigating of his own and saw this house next door where the pizza was delivered and said, well, you know, I'm just going to go knock on the door. This guy answers the door and his name was Bill Rostein. And he actually said, you know, you can look around if you want. He's 59 years old.

He's a handyman, wasn't married, had lived there his whole life. And apparently he seemed really smart, had a very articulate way of speaking and apparently was fluent in several different languages. And the journalist kind of did a little poking around and didn't really see much and took off. But he made contact with Bill Rothstein. He's the first person that kind of went a-knockin'.

Right. But nothing came of it. And the cops, as far as I know know never went and met with Bill Rothstein even though his house is right next to the delivery place where Wells was supposedly accosted right? And then like I said the case has gone cold by this time. If a couple months have gone by the whole, I mean you've got this crime, this very public caper that's captured the public's attention.

A guy died by being blown up while under police supervision. And there's no leads, there's no nothing. And then finally, several weeks, a few months, I think, after the call, there's a 911 call from Bill Rothstein. And he tells the police that in his freezer, he has one of those serial killer chest freezers, there's actually a body, a man's body. And that it was, it is not someone he murdered, but he helped cover up the murder of this man who is the boyfriend of Bill Rothstein's ex-girlfriend

from way, way back in the day. And now the chain of events has been set off. Right. And if you're like me and you start hearing, wife of the ex-girlfriend's dad's cousin, your brain gets a little jumbled. So, just very plainly, he used to date this woman. This woman called him up and said, hey, I've murdered my current boyfriend, or was it her husband?

It was her boyfriend, yeah. And she said, and I need your help here. I blasted him with a shotgun, and I know he tated, oh, 20 years ago, but will you come help me out because they were still in contact I guess they remain friends. I guess so. In this ragtapill Rostein apparently he thought about committing suicide apparently there was even a note they found a suicide note but he maintained like you

said with the cops that he didn't have anything to do with anything but most of the cleanup. The cleanup getting rid of the murder weapon, and then holding onto the body. Yeah, but which the reason he held on the body he was supposed to get, apparently he's supposed to grind this body up. And that's where he finally stopped short and was like, Jesus, I can't do this.

And he said, he told the cops that the reason he called them finally was because since he wasn't going through with grinding up the body, he was worried what this woman, Marjorie Deal Armstrong, was going to do to him. He's like, I dated this lady. She's not a nice person. And so when he says Marjorie Deal Armstrong to the eerie cops, just alarm bells start going off. Because by this time already, Marjorie Deal Armstrong was a local legend as far as criminals are concerned. She was this very, very bright woman who, I think at the age of 35 back in the 80s,

had been indicted for killing one of her boyfriends, shot him six times. She played that she had killed him in self-defense, that he was an abuser of her, and she was actually acquitted. A few years after that, she was married to a guy named Armstrong, and he showed up at the hospital with a head trauma and actually died of a cerebral hemorrhage,

but there was no coroner's inquest or anything like that. And so it just was something suspicious, you know, the second significant other of this woman to die under suspicious or violent circumstances. So when Bill Rothstein said, I'm worried about what Marjorie D. Armstrong is going to do to me, the cops seem to have taken it very seriously. Well, extremely seriously,

because the next day they arrested her. That's pretty serious. For murder. And about a year and a half later, a little short of that, she pled guilty but mentally ill. She was sentenced to seven to 20. And then Rothstein, for his part, eventually died of cancer in 2004. Right. And so you said that he had considered killing himself and even wrote a suicide note, right? Yeah.

There's something very, very odd on Bill Rothstein's suicide note. And again, he didn't kill himself. He died of cancer. But he was able to actually show the cops where a suicide note was, and they read it. And the first line of it, from what I understand, was this has nothing to do with the caller bomb heist or

the Brian Wells murder. Yeah, that's a weird thing to put if you had nothing to do with that, you know. Right. That's just a very odd thing to do. It's like when the cops come in and you go, there's nothing under the bed. There's no reason to look there. Right. They said, we just want to make sure your fire alarm is working.

Yeah, exactly. Part of a community service. Cool, but the bed's fine. Yeah, right? So that is a very weird thing to say, and that definitely piqued the interest of the cops. But like you said, the state convicted Marjorie Deal Armstrong of the murder of James Rodin or Jim Rodin, right? Yeah.

She's already in prison and when she's in prison, somehow, this is what I'm unclear on, somehow it comes up or she starts talking or something like that, that Jim Rodin's death very much had to do with the Wells case, with Brian Wells' murder, this collar bomb heist. And that she knows a lot about it, and if they'll transfer her to a minimum security prison close to Erie, she'll start talking. Yeah, she asked for the old Hannibal Lecter treatment. So is that how it came up, like she approached them? Because I'm unclear on that. I mean I think so. This is in the Wired article it said that there was a phone call from a state cop who had just met with her about something unrelated,

like a different homicide. And she just, and it kind of makes sense though now actually when we, as we will learn, she talked a lot. Yeah, a lot. So it doesn't surprise me that another cop was just meeting with her about something unrelated. She's like, by the way, that whole collar bomb thing, I got all the skinny on that. Right. So there's a couple of things going on here by then. By the time she calls the cops, the cops have already spoken apparently with several informants that have shared cells with her or spent time with her in jail already, who are saying like, this lady is the mastermind of that collar bomb heist that's making you guys look bad.

Yeah, and eventually, you know, when they met with her about this, she admitted that she was involved, but well, she didn't admit she was involved in the plot, but she said, I knew about it. I gave him those two kitchen timers. And I was really close by when it happened. And by the way, the guy who blew up with the collar bomb, Mr. Wells, he was actually in on it too.

And Rothstein headed the whole thing up. Right, but for D.L. Armstrong, she said, but I had nothing to do with it. Even though I had all these other little things to do with it, I never met Brian Wells, I didn't know Brian Wells, I had nothing to do with his death, aside from supplying the kitchen timers. And knowing all about it. Right, exactly. So now it's just getting weird, right?

Because there's the Jim Roden murder, who she says that she killed because he was abusing her, who Rothstein said she killed over a dispute with money, but is now she's saying is tied to the Wells case and which she knows a lot about, but really nothing about and had nothing to do with. So the cops are like, well, let's just get this lady to talk all we can. And one of the things they got out of her was her. She agreed to a tour around Erie, showing them all these places where she had been. And these were all places that were related to the crime. Like I believe she said she'd been at the pizza delivery site.

I think she said she'd been within a mile of the bank when it was robbed. Like all of this stuff, she's just like, they just keep giving her this rope and she's just wrapping it around her neck again and again and again. And then finally, Chuck, at the end of this car ride, after she's been interviewing with the cops multiple times, giving them tons of info, what does she say? She asked for immunity at this point. After she had basically completely incriminated herself. And previous to all this, a lot more happened. There were four different informants who had come forward and said that this lady's been talking about this for a while.

She very much had everything to do with it. And then a couple of months after she had started talking to the feds, another big break came. This witness came forward and said, hey, there's this crack dealer named Kenny Barnes. That is a crack dealer's name. Kenneth Barnes. And he was involved.

They used to go fishing together, Armstrong, D.L. Armstrong and Barnes. And she sang like a canary to him basically, and said, here's what she did. She, her brother-in-law put him in touch with Barnes while he was already in jail on unrelated charges basically. And so Barnes was already in prison said hey I think I can shorten my time so I'm going to try and get a reduced sentence at least by spilling the beans on Deal Armstrong. Right and Barnes' brother-in-law was who turned him into the cops.

Oh yeah. So Barnes is like, oh, I'm already, I'm in jail for selling crack. That's way different from being, you know, very much involved in this collar bomb heist. So he said, okay, I'll tell you guys everything you want to know, I'll be your star witness. Just reduce my sentence for my involvement in this.

And he started talking. When he started talking, it was at Marjorie Deal Armstrong's trial, which was a pretty spectacular trial from all accounts. Yeah, and before the trial even, he told, his story was, is that she wanted me to kill her father. He was spending what would end up being her inheritance, she felt, and so she wanted him dead. And so she was doing this collar bomb heist

to raise money to pay me to kill her dad. Which, I mean like, that's just the biggest face palm I've ever heard of. Yeah, for real. So okay, we'll start Marjorie D. L. Armstrong's trial after we take a break. How about that, man? That sounds good. Okay. This is David Eagleman, host of the Science Podcast, Inner Cosmos.

For Valentine's Day, we're diving into the question, what is love from the brain's point of view? What does love have to do with how you were raised or the symmetry of someone's face or the smell of their underarms? Why does the character of love change throughout our lives? Why is heartbreak like drug withdrawal? And what does any of this have to do with sweaty t-shirts or rom-coms or monogamous

animals and the future of love and AI? Join me for this week's Inner Cosmos for a deep dive into the neurobiology of love and AI. Join me for this week's Inner Cosmos for a deep dive into the neurobiology of love. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Yo, what up? It's your girl Jess Hilarious,

and I think it's time to acknowledge that I'm not just a comedian. It's time to add uncertified therapists to my credentials. Because each and every Wednesday I'm fixing your mess on carefully reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Got problems in your relationship? Come to me. Your best friend acting shady?

Come to me. Thinking about cursing that one stank auntie out at the next family gathering? Do it. But come to me before you do because I cussed all mine out before. You wanna fight your coworkers? Come to me. Baby daddy mad, because you got a boyfriend?

Come to me. Thought you was the father, but you not? Come to me. I can't promise I won't judge you, but I can guarantee that I will help you. As a daughter, a sister, a mother, and an entrepreneur, I've learned a lot in life.

So I'm using my own perspective and experiences to help you fix your mess. Send me a situation and let's fix it as a family. Listen to Carefully Reckless on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to My Legacy. I'm Martin Luther King III. And together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilburger,

we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives. Each week, we'll sit down with inspiring figures like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin Sheen, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and Billy Porter. And they're plus one, they'll ride or die, as they share stories never heard before about their remarkable journey. Listen to My Legacy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. This is My Legacy. It was a moment that should have broken me, but just because of how I was raised and my

bullishness and arrogance to want to be great hardened me. It gave me a platform to be so singularly focused on greatness. We all have moments like this. Something happens that's supposed to break us. But it's in these moments that we discover what we're really made of. I promise you, if anyone knows this, it's me. I'm Ashlyn Harris. Okay, Chuck.

So before Marjorie D. L. Armstrong goes to trial, and remember, she's already in prison for the murder of Jim Roden, right? Shooting him in the back with a 12 gauge shotgun. Yes. Bill Rothstein is dead. I want to call him Ace Rothstein so bad. But Bill Rothstein is dead. He died of lymphoma a couple of years before.

And by the time Marjorie D. Armstrong is brought to trial for her involvement as the mastermind of the collar bomb plot, they have to verify that she's actually mentally competent to stay on trial. And that's kind of touchy, because remember when she was charged with killing her boyfriend back in, I think, 1984 and 1986? Yeah.

She was deemed incompetent seven times by psychiatrists before the judge finally said, I'm throwing all that out and deciding that she is competent. We're going to go ahead with the trial. Yes. They also found like 400 pounds of butter and 700 pounds of cheese in her house when they were investigating that particular murder. And in between 1984 and the time she was tried in the collar bomb heist,

she had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So it was actually kind of questionable whether she was mentally competent to see a trial. And right as they were about to start the proceedings, I think the judge ruled that she was competent to see a trial. And right as they were about to start the proceedings, I think the judge ruled that she was competent to see a trial, she was diagnosed with cancer herself. That's right. So they waited for the cancer diagnosis, her prognosis,

and the cancer doctor came back and said, three to seven years, and the prosecutor said giddy up. That's right. So previous to this, she had gotten the indictment, but in that indictment, it's very important that she was not, I mean, granted, she was the only one technically indicted, but in the indictment, it said that Rothstein

was definitely a conspirator, and Wells, the man who was the victim supposedly, he was definitely involved in this thing from the beginning. Yeah, you're absolutely right. That is a very important thing that showed up in this indictment. Yeah, they said he agreed to rob this bank. He thought it was a fake bomb. And he was told this scavenger hunt was a ruse to fool the cops.

And if and when he did get caught, he could say, you know, I was just following orders, basically what he did. Right. And so Brian Wells' family did not like this at all. Apparently during the press conference where the DA of Erie County is announcing this, you know, this case is closed, this is the indictment that they have, the Wells, some of Brian Wells' sisters were shouting liar at her. They did not take the idea that their brother was an accomplice in this at all very well.

Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of back and forth about whether Wells was in on the thing from the beginning or whether or not he was in from the beginning and then at one point wanted out and was forced to do this or whether he was forced from the beginning. Everyone's telling a different story and basically the trial is where we will learn if all that is true what really happened.

So Marjorie D. Armstrong's lawyer said, you know, to heck with caution, let's put you on the stand, okay? You've already incriminated yourself multiple times. Why not do it in open court too? And she apparently was quite a, she put on quite a performance on the stand over like two days, I think five and a half hours of testimony. She yelled, she cried, she berated the prosecutor and her own lawyer. When she did mention Brian Wells, she said,

I've never met the guy. I learned of his death when everybody else did on the TV news. And she stuck with her story though that she had nothing to do with this. She knew a little bit about it. She knew the conspirators. The real mastermind was Bill Rothstein and it wasn't her. That's what she maintained though throughout the trial and even afterward. That's right. But before she took the stand, a few days earlier is when they trotted out Ken Barnes. And he took the stand. And he said, you know, by the time she took the stand, he had given a different account of the story than she would later do. So he got up there and said, she was behind all this. She was the mastermind. Rostein was involved. She just recruited him basically.

She recruited Wells because Wells needed money. And here's where the prostitutes come into play. Apparently Wells had a relationship with a prostitute who was also a crack addict. So he would buy crack to give her, presumably as trade for sex. He ended up falling into debt with these crack dealers and needed money. It's basically the plot of Moulin Rouge. And he contends, Barnes did, that up until the day of the crime, Wells thought this whole thing was fake, realized that it was a double cross. It was a real bomb and he tried to run away and was tackled and They put a gun to his head and locked him into this device

So imagine this Chuck imagine being Brian Wells and you're agreeing to to put on what you are presuming is a fake Caller bomb to go carry out a real bank robbery because you need money, because you're indebted to crack dealers, because you borrowed from crack from them to give to your girlfriend who's a prostitute who you have to give crack to to be with. And then you find out on the day of that this is a real bomb and they're putting it on you whether you like it or not. What a horrible turn of events for this poor guy. I mean, that's just so sad no matter how you slice it.

And then if you take his family's opinion that he was 100% innocent, that he really was delivering pizzas and was accosted and had nothing to do with any of this, which I take with a pretty big grain of salt. I mean, that's just as bad. But it's bad either way. Whether he was an accomplice at one point or not, it's very, it's super sad.

There's a very sad thread that's running through this story in the form of Brian Wells, you know? Well, yeah. And on the final day of her trial, at the very, very end of her taking the stand, is when she finally said that she didn't knew him, never met him. And the first time she had ever laid eyes on him was on the news that day.

Right. Basically, he and Marjorie Deal Armstrong are fishing, right? They're fishing buddies. That he's somebody that she would turn to. And she's finding out that her father is blowing through her inheritance. And she wants to put a stop to it.

And so she approaches Barnes to get him to kill her father. But to get that 250K that he says he will kill her father for, she's gotta rob a bank. So she turns to her friend, Bill Rothstein, to come up with this collar bomb to put it on this other person, Brian Wells, who's going to carry this out. And oh, by the way, we're also going to come up with a scavenger hunt to either throw the cops off or to actually make Brian Wells feel more comfortable, give him some sort of cover

in case he is caught. And that's what we're going to go with Go team. And Marjorie D. Armstrong said that's preposterous, that wasn't me. Kenneth Barnes said that's exactly what happened. And then Bill Rothstein wasn't alive to contradict any of it. That's right. So she's sentenced, right? She's convicted as the mastermind of this plot.

Yeah, the jury took about 11 hours and she was convicted of armed bank robbery conspiracy and using a destructive device in a crime of violence. That's a big one, I'll bet. I'll bet that carries a hefty sentence with it. Yeah, and she would die in prison just like her prognosis said. She didn't, I think she lasted a few years. No, they gave her three to seven years and she lasted seven. Yeah, so she finally passed away.

And you know, that's kind of the end of the story, even though there's a retired FBI investigator named Jim Fisher who said, I think they got this all wrong. I think that Rothstein was the guy the whole time. And he makes a decently compelling case, but it's, you know, everyone's dead now. Yeah, Jim Fisher's gone a little bit down the rabbit hole, if you ask me. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of hard to tell with literally everyone

having died, but for his money he thinks it was Rothstein. Yeah, and so there's probably not many people who are familiar with the case who would say that it wasn't Rothstein who built the bomb. But what Jim Fisher's saying is like, Bill Rothstein was behind everything. And Marjorie Deal Armstrong murdering Jim Rodin was just like a gift that dropped in Bill Rothstein's lap that he could use to make all these puppets dance, including the cops. And that the whole point of it was to create this elaborate scheme, this elaborate crime that would puzzle people for years and years to come, which it's doing that. And that that was the point. And that Brian Wells was going to die one way or another, right? Because I think the FBI said they concluded the whole scavenger hunt was a hoax,

and that Brian Wells was never going to survive this, didn't they? Yeah. So this is Jim Fisher's position, but like you said, now that everybody's dead, really the only question is, you know, just how complicit was Brian Wells is the last big question. That's right. And then there's one other guy who seems to have got off scot-free named Floyd Stockton. Did you look into him? A little bit.

So he's a guy who was there. He was there. He supposedly handed Rothstein the bomb to put around Brian Wells neck. He was staying with Rothstein as a buddy on his couch, fleeing a rape charge in Washington. And somehow for some reason, he got immunity and was not indicted even though he was very much involved in this and he got off scot-free. And Brian Wells' family is going nuts over the fact

that this guy's out there walking free, that he was a part of this caper and he didn't see a second inside of a jail. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there were more people involved even. So what do you think? Do you think Brian Wells was complicit and if so, how much? Oh man, I don't know. I mean, it sounds like I kind of believe the story that they were all in it together and he was probably double-crossed. But this is just from reading about this thing many, many years later.

Do you think Marjorie Deal Armstrong was the mastermind? I don't know. I don't know either. But we might. But probably not. from Rich Shapiro. Read that. Start there. It's great. And since I said Rich Shapiro, it's time for listener mail. I'm going to go with one on emoji and John Adams. Hey guys, enjoyed the recent podcast about the history of emojis and emoticons. It reminded me of a discovery I made in the

diaries of John Adams that makes a historical figure who's sometimes described as aloof seem completely charming. When the future president was about 22 years old, he made an entry in his diary in 1756 saying, A cloudy morning, about 10, and he drew a little sunshine, break out a warm day. He uses a little line drawing on the sun that I always call an 18th century emoji. He liked the little creation so much he reused it a month later in the same diary, A Misty Morning, Little Sunshine, Breakout About Noon. On the Massachusetts Historical Society website, the text of his letters and diaries is faithfully transcribed but in these cases a parenthetical note tells readers that there are small drawings of the sun and advises them to refer to the scans of the

handwritten page where you can actually see this. Apparently he grew out of his habit though because his later diaries do not use the adorable little sun. Keep up the great work. My wife and I host a local history podcast for Boston. No, it's tightly scripted Oh, man, he didn't tell me what it was. I would have totally shouted it out. What I know big big missed opportunity there Jake One of these days will be confident enough to have an unscripted conversation like you guys do and that is from Jake Sconyers Okay, so everybody's look up Jake Sconyers Boston History Podcast and it'll probably

bring it up, right? Yeah, probably so. Thanks a lot, Jake. Thanks for keeping up the good fight up there. That's pretty cool. Good story, too. If you want to get in touch with us like Jake did, tell us about your podcast. That's great.

You can send us all an email to stuffpodcast.howstuffworks.com and And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoshouldknow.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Welcome to My Legacy. I'm Martin Luther King III, and together with my wife, Andrea Waters King, and our dear friends Mark and Craig Kilburger, we explore the personal journeys that shape extraordinary lives. Join us for heartfelt conversations with remarkable guests like David Oyelowo, Mel Robbins, Martin

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