Stuff You Should Know - Selects: The Science of Break-Ups

Episode Date: March 9, 2024

Breaking up is hard to do. Your brain might even think you're getting over a cocaine addiction. Learn all about the science behind break-ups in this classic episode!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Walter Isaacson about the geniuses who change the world. Listen and subscribe to the Martha Stewart podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, it's Josh. And for this week's Select, I've chosen our 2019 episode on the science of breakups. It's just a straight ahead interesting episode about people and what makes us tick.

I hope you enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant over there. There's Jerry. Rush, rush, rush, Jerry. This is Stuff You Should Know, the breakup edition. Right. Three people who have never broken up with one another.

No, that's true. The last three. Great point. Modern triad. Yeah, the triad. So I picked this one out because mainly it's a refrain. We get an email a lot. We hear from heartbroken people a lot.

Sure. More than you would think that are just like, I'm so sad. Lots of broken hearts. And you guys have helped me with this show as a distraction, which we will learn as one of the official ways to get over a breakup. Yeah, look over here.

Yeah, exactly. So it just got me thinking about like is there any science behind breakups and the emotions that go along with it and Turns out there's a lot Like a disturbing amount of study has been done. I know when you look at it You're like, oh man, maybe you should have allocated that money toward research toward other things. Yeah, like cancer. Yeah Although social psychology couldn't do anything about cancer. No and it's you know, toward other things. Yeah, like cancer. Yeah. Although social psychology couldn't do anything about cancer.

No, and it's not like they're like, oh, well, we'll just, it's all taken from one big pool. We'll just allocate some of this breakup money toward cancer research. Sure. It's not how it works. Well, you could allocate the money, but the mental energy, I guess guess is what I'm talking about

Yeah, but this there was just it seemed like study after study and and also We should point out to that I Think there was one case in here of one study where they looked at homosexual couples But most of this study is like Cisgendered straight couples. Yeah of the study is like cisgendered straight couples through that lens only. They're not doing a ton of research outside that. I found one that tracks,

it correlates the likelihood of breaking up to time and they had it broken out by same-sex and straight, married and unmarried. Those were like the four categories. So some people are doing it. But yeah, for the most part, no. And I think one of the reasons why Chuck is, a lot of this is from the mid 2000s, early 2010s.

And that was about the last, the tail end of that. Now I think it's starting to change, fortunately. Right. Because people of all genders and sexual orientation break up and get dumped. And we're here to help all of you. So buckle in, grab a hanky and let's get through this.

Yeah, I mean, we should go ahead and start out by saying, I guess that, um, in theory, more people are breaking up now because people are generally waiting longer to get married. Right. So if you could extrapolate that, if you're not married for 10 more years than let's say our parents were. Right. Then maybe you've gone through a couple more breakups along the way. Yeah, we should give a shout out to Kristen Konger of un-lady like media. Yeah.

Kongs who wrote this article, our old pal, and she points out that, that typically means that you are going to find somebody who you work with rather than rushing into it. But it also, as she puts it, like leaves the window open longer for heartbreak to be dumped. Yeah. One thing I saw Chuck, this is mind boggling to me. 85% of people according to this one study

will be dumped in their lifetime. We'll experience being a breakup in their lifetime. That means 15% of humanity won't. That is, those are some interesting people. Eight, 15% have not had a breakup or been broken up with. Will not in their lifetime. Oh, okay. You're just going to either never have a relationship

or the first time they're gonna hit it out of the park. But that doesn't mean like- Or settle out of the park. I've never been dumped. Yeah, like they'll never have gone through a breakup. But I've been through breakups. I've done I've been the dumper Right, I know what you're saying. No, I believe that they will not have experience to break up in their lifetime either way Well, that's great. That means they sure yeah They met the person that they love when they're young probably again or it means that they decided to live their life alone

Just fine Right or or both they like I said they decided to live their life alone, just fine. Right. Or, or both. They, like I said, they decided like, yeah, I'm just going to stick with this person. Yeah. I don't want to, I want to be what, I don't want to ruin my record, my spotless record. I think it's very interesting here that supposedly, and this is very hanky, how they found this out about the spikes and breakups from like-

That's a Facebook data poll. Social media. This doesn't count social psychology. Doesn't count. I agree, but it doesn't make a little bit of sense, and I could see this being true, that generally dumping someone or getting broken up with can happen on any day of the year, but there are spikes in early December and early March because of Christmas holidays and spring break.

Yeah, and technically- I could see that being true. I'm sure it's true, at least on Facebook, and yeah, this is a pretty big data pool, but it's like, that's so lazy. It's lazy, but I could see it because it makes a little bit of sense that you would not want

to go through the holidays with someone that... And you sent a thing too, and this is important to point out, like, when the breakup happens, when that talk or these days text message or phone call happens. It's not okay. That is the end of something for maybe both of you, but definitely one of you. Yeah, sometimes, most of the time. That actual act of saying we're breaking up,

that's at the end of many, many weeks or even months or even years of contemplation about whether or not you want to still be with this person. Right, and that's why being broken up with is almost across the board way harder than breaking up. Because by the time, like you said, by the time the person who initiates the breakup, initiates the breakup,

this is at the end of a long road of decision making. Whereas the other person might have been blissfully unaware or at least willfully ignorant or not willing to address the issues. And so they are one way or another largely caught off guard by being broken up with. So the person who does the breaking up has already gone through all these stages of grief

or of separation, whereas now it's this person, the person who's just been dumped, it's their time to go through it. Right, so if you're doing the dumping, like the hour after you have that conversation, you're like, what a relief, I'm starting over. Let's go get some gin. Whereas the dumpy is like,

Let's go get some gin. That begins their process. Although the only thing I'll take issue with that whole line of thought though is that a lot of people even that might get dumped aren't like, what? Like they may have known and just didn't want to admit it or weren't brave enough or strong enough to do it themselves. Yeah, and I agree with you on that. I think that there's still a thread

that they had not been preparing themselves just by being in say denial or unwilling to address it, face it. Now they have no choice but to face reality. Whereas the person who did the breakup was like facing reality and coming to terms with it quietly. Sure. And then now it's your turn. Right, which brings me back to my original point,

which is Christmas and spring break make a little bit of sense because the person who is desperate to get out of a relationship and break up with somebody, they're staring at those Christmas holidays. And that first week of December rolls around. They're like, I got to do this now because I don't want to travel out of town with this person and do the whole gift thing. Right. And the holidays are just it's stuff to be in a relationship

That's a lie. Well sure because holidays. I mean the holidays are so about like Connecting and feeling and warmth and all that and if you're faking it or have to fake it, you know Some people are like I'm not going through that. I also saw an explanation in Harper's Bazaar of all places That some people may do that because of the pressure of coming up with a really good gift. That the relationship is not worth, the pressure of coming up with a good gift outweighs the value of the relationship to those people, or there are some people who don't want to put their significant other through that, so they just break up proactively, which also means that they didn't value the relationship that much either

But at least in their mind, they're not doing it for themselves They're doing it for the other person because they don't want to put the other person through that that pressure of having to get the perfect gift Yeah, I've never had that thing either where you start dating someone and it's like a couple of weeks before their birthday Mm-hmm or Christmas and then that pressure of like, oh man, how do I play this one? You know like- A couple after a couple of weeks? Yeah, like that's a pass.

Oh yeah, that's a pass. You really like this person or like, but how do I go on this gift? Here, I don't really know you. So I got you a basket of socks. Everyone loves socks. So here's an Amazon gift card for 3850. Right. After a couple of weeks, that's a little close. Yeah, I think so.

Come up with a perfect gift or even be expected to. And I did mention breaking up by text or whatever, like you would suspect. If you were born before 1975, like myself, you break up in person supposedly about 74% of the time. Not bad. Post 1984, if you were born less than 50% of the time, you're gonna do that in person. And they say generation Y, whatever that is.

I think it's millennials. Is it? I'm pretty sure. When did they name them? Do they know what, like, does my daughter have a generation already? I don't's millennials. Is it? I'm pretty sure. When do they name them? Do they know what like, does my daughter have a generation already? I don't know. Like a name? I'm sure somebody out there is named your daughter's generation. Don't box her in. Right. Well, you got a pigeonhole folks. Let her grow up. Yeah. Be her own person. But if you are GNY, you're more likely 30% to do it over the phone.

And of course this says a searing instant message or an email, I think these days you would call that a text. An email is the lowest percent wise and compassion wise. That's the worst. 4% of people break up by email. What was it on the? Sex is pretty bad, email is as bad as it gets it gets it sex in the city where it was a sticky note No, I don't remember. I feel like it was a movie or the show. I didn't see the movie sticky note break. I think so Should we take a break yeah, let's take a break man. This is going really well so far. Okay. Hi, I'm Martha Stewart and we're back with a new season of my podcast.

This season will be even more revealing and more personal, with more entrepreneurs, more trailblazers, more live events, more Martha, and more questions from you. I'm talking to my cosmetic dermatologist, Dr. Dan Belkin, about the secrets behind my skincare. Walter Isaacson about the geniuses who changed the world. Angkor Jane about creating a billion-dollar startup. Dr. Elisa Pressman about the five basic strategies to help parents raise good humans. Florence Fabricant about the authenticity in the world of food writing.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. If you are down to explore the magic of real life, join me on my podcast, Edgy Martinez IRL, where I candidly speak to icons like Alicia Keys, Killer Mike, Janelle Monay, Kelly Clarkson, and Kim Kardashian about the lessons in their real lives. Check out my interview with Super Bowl halftime show performer, songwriter, dancer,

and the newly married Usher about relationships. Having a partner who will be honest with you, brutally honest with you, and you can take that constructive criticism because you know it comes from a good place and you've spent enough time, your friends enough, and you've established trust. Trust is the main component to happiness and success

in a relationship. Being able to actually hear each other and speak up. It's hard, right? To even know what you really want and what really matters. I think most of the time we all just wanna be heard. Listen to Edgy Martinez' IRL on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts and wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Chuck. So we've talked about when people break up, how they break up, why do

they break up? Well, actually, there's one more, I think, pretty important thing about the how, which is men and women. Women tend to present, and this sort of makes sense too, if you want to be stereotypically, you know. Stereotypical. About it. Women tend to present a list of grievances. You're selling things wrong with you, Bob. Pretty much, whereas men, it's a little more supposedly a little more nebulous. Where'd the magic go? Yeah, there you go.

That's apparently the differences as far as like rationale for breaking up. And these are so macro level and broad and how we talk about it. It's a little embarrassing to even do. To talk about this stuff? Yeah, I know. I was- Man do this and women do this. Right, no, it's absolutely true. Yeah.

But I feel like when you talk about this, people can find themselves in the contours of I think so of all if you put all This stuff together. Yeah, if you just took one study and said that this is definitive People should should punch you in the kidney agreed, but not really don't punch anybody, you know everyone Over the last almost 11 years of stuff. You should know I've said a lot of things that make it sound like I'm inciting people to violence friendly violence, so I was joking Every single time why someone said something no I just I just want to make sure that everyone knows that I was never ever actually serious in saying Hit somebody in the head with a tech camera. Yeah, yeah, or punch someone in the kidney

I'm kidding all the time Except for when you recommend that you pants somebody I was kidding even then to a classroom or that's psychological abuse. It is it's physical But it's more psychological than anything you ever been pantsed in front of people. Yes, really? Yes, and I can tell you it's psychological I don't think I've ever been pantsed. Boy, I can't imagine anything more horrifying than being pantsed without underwear on. Well, I can confirm that because I can't remember being pantsed. I just remember that I have been pantsed.

So I think I just immediately blocked out everything. Sure. Yeah. So no story there. No. No No, okay, so if you get broken up with You will feel and we're gonna talk about the science of a lot of this because it's very similar to overcoming addiction sometimes but Of course depression and anxiety Sometimes suicidal thoughts sometimes homicide? Oh, sure.

That's an outcome, a worst-case outcome, that in suicide of breakups, but they are directly related to breakups. That's how bad breakups can be. Yeah. And apparently, when people do write in about getting dumped and stuff, I always say it's the most trite thing in the world

But like time is the only thing that really helps. Yeah, like ice cream and stuff like that is good. But like it really does Decrease over time. However in studies eight weeks after being dumped Then this study 40% of people still had signs of clinical depression and 12% appeared moderately or severely depressed. It depends on the relationship, how long you're in it, how much it meant to you, what kind of person you are, but it can stick around for a bit. It can. So the thing is though, there are things you can do to help accelerate the healing process

and we'll talk about those at the end. How about that? Okay. We'll make y'all wait. All right. So where are we at, Chuck? Are we at the... Well, the attachment styles I think is interesting

because we did talk about like gay, straight, cisgendered, you know, on the gender spectrum, maybe none of that matters. Maybe what matters is what they call your attachment style. That's what this says pretty plainly. That's what it comes down to. How you attach yourselves to other people. You can be a needy, clingy dude. You can be a avoidant woman.

Or you can be either one of those things anywhere on the gender spectrum. That's the thing. The idea that women are clingy and men are distant is fabled. Yeah. Or it's at least ham-fisted. Yeah, I think so.

It's sort of that thing in social science that bothers me, which is like you're either this or this. Right. Like one thing or the other. And really all you are is a white college student. That's what they really mean. Yeah, you had a little time on their hands. Right, you needed extra credit.

But there are two supposedly, again, two things, attachment styles, anxious attachment and avoidant attachment. Well, Conger points out like that's two ends of a spectrum. Oh, okay. And you can follow somewhere on there. There's actually a, it's pretty straightforward. It's the OIS, I believe, or OSI.

It's a scale where you pick how your relationship is best described by a series of Venn diagrams. In one circle is you, and one circle is your significant other. And they're just increasingly together from just barely touching to almost completely merged into one single circle. And you just circle the one that best describes your, your sense of what your relationships like.

And that supposedly gets your, your spectrum replacement on the spectrum of attachment across. Oh, interesting. So it's a real subjective and self-reported, so that is to say not scientific. Right, unfortunately. Supposedly, two-thirds of women initiate divorces, and this article says that might give them a statistical edge over getting over a relationship. Because they initiated the breakup, so they've been in the process already. Maybe.

That's what I think she meant. I think so. I'm just not so sure that just because a woman initiates a divorce, it may have been after years of systematic abuse, you know? Right. Which may not mean like, she's so ready to get over this, quicker than he might be. Right. You know?

Yeah, no, I mean, you can't just say it like if X then Y. Right. With this stuff. It's relationship, sir. As messy as humans get, it's a relationship. Yeah. That's all you need to say. Well, let's talk about the brain a little bit

because this is where it does get a little more interesting, I think. Thank God. Slightly more interesting. I think slightly more scientific, okay There was a study in 2011 by neurologist at the Einstein College of Medicine, which sounded totally fake But it's not I have sounds made up for it and down. It's in the Bronx. Yeah, there's also reputable There were also anthropologists from Rutgers and SUNY to legitimize things. Oh, I would-

In the study. If Rutgers is legitimizing things, we're in trouble. Oh, really? Is that- Is that really- I thought Rutgers was all right. Or am I confusing it with Tufts? Uh, you're probably thinking Princeton.

Okay. Both New Jersey schools. I thought Rutgers was the public ivy. Okay. Sorry, Rutgers was the public Ivy Okay Sorry Rutgers. I tried Check back them. They're gonna be so mad at me. I've hung out at Rutgers. I've been there people So you know what you're talking about. I know exactly what I'm talking about. Is it like the Detroit of New Jersey colleges or something? That's not untrue. Okay. All right

That's not untrue. Okay. All right. He don't disagree. Boy, we're going to get killed. That's okay. So this study from Einstein College of Medicine found that just looking at a photograph of an ex-partner caused the second somo somatosensory cortex and the dorsal posterior insula. Nice.

Jeez. And these areas process physical discomfort. They start lighting up. The same thing as happens is when you get physically injured, basically. Right. Like you are in actual legitimate pain, as far as your brain is concerned, in the midst of a breakup,

at least when you're stuck in an MRI machine and showing a picture of your recent ex. Which is a big deal now with social media because every modern article I read about breakups and getting over them talked about what a deletrious effect social media will have on your recovery process. Are you taunting me? Because this stuff's everywhere now. It used to be easy. You could just throw everything in a shoebox and

Set it on fire and send it down a river. Yeah, and a little boat made of rage. Sure But you can't do that anymore because they're everywhere. No, but that's that's tip number one from Psychologist Guy Winch author of how to fix a broken heart Stay the H off of social media Nope. Number one from psychologist Guy Winch, author of How to Fix a Broken Heart. Stay the H off of social media. Do not stalk your ex on social. Do not check in. Like just separate. I imagine that would be really hard because in the old days, it was just left to your imagination to think about how much fun they were having with, you know. Now you can see pictures of the nine new boyfriends that she has.

Right. Um, but yeah, you're right. Now, or, or, you know, maybe it helps. I'm people. I don't know. I think it's imperative that you not do that to help to help. Like it's not like watching them on social media will prevent you from ever getting over it.

I think no matter what you do, you're going to eventually get past this. But all you're doing is prolonging the process and that's like unnecessarily. Yeah. And then also when you were on the FMRI machine and they did brain scans from people who had been broken up with recently, they found that very much similar to people overcoming like an addiction to cocaine in that same circuitry is of overcoming addiction is just lighting up, it's that potent.

Yeah, so so far with this MRI study from Albert Einstein came up with is that you were in physical pain from the breakup. And you're the same centers that are activated by addiction cravings, withdrawals, are activated by the breakup as well. That's astounding. Yeah, and this weird mental cycle happens basically

when you do look at like a photograph of what they say, a former lover. Right, lover. Like the Burger King laying on a rug, fair skin rug. But you'll see the photo and the weird thing is you'll immediately get a reward. You will get a dopamine hit, like a pleasurable feeling by seeing this person that you love. And then you realize, oh wait. Well, then you get sad immediately afterward.

And then that sagness, sagness. Where did that come from? It is a little saggy feeling. immediately afterward. And then that sagness, sagness. Where did that come from? It is a little saggy feeling. That triggers the brain's ventral, tegmental area, and the nucleus. Acumen bins, acumen bins. I think so. I know we've run into that before.

We used to talk about the brain a lot more. Acumen bins. I think we figured out the brain though, right? So we stopped. Yeah, we were like, it's done. But these two things working together, regardless of how I mispronounce them, they trigger the urge to see that person.

So you get sad and then your brain lights up in two areas and then you go, hey, like remember that dopamine hit you get from looking this picture? Why don't you just give them a call and see what's going on? Right, you want the real stuff. Go, go get them. They also, those two areas apparently also are analytical as well. So they're responsible for rehashing the the relationship. But apparently they're not very realistic because most people when rehashing the relationship

highlight the good parts and forget about all the bad parts. I kind of have tended to do that. I think everybody does. I don't understand why. I don't know. I don't agree with that. Like Emily and we of course been married so long. The subject never comes up anymore. But I was always like oh With the old girlfriend what was so bad there?

And then if I really thought about it, I would remember where she's always like oh that was awful. Oh really? Yeah, gotcha. Well, she's smart. Yeah, maybe so And I'm a dumb dumb so but okay, so even in you're not a dumb dumb even if But okay, so even in your non-domdom, even if like you represent a third of people or a half of people who do when rehashing only think about the good stuff and forget about all the negative stuff, like what is that? Why does that even happen? It's bizarre if you think about it. A personality thing. Like if I tend to be optimistic maybe or... Yeah, yeah, I guess that's a pretty good explanation to tell you the truth.

What I was gonna say is if you look at relationships or romantic love as a evolutionary drive to pair and mate successfully over and over again and to stay together, that would bring you back to this person that you've already connected with rather than making you go look for another mate. That makes sense. So maybe it's kind of like a backstop

or fail safe for breakups, evolutionarily speaking. Right, like I was so close to having nine babies. Like I really want to start all over again. Right, right. Which is funny because that means that Emily's more evolved than you in that sense. Yeah, in every sense. That's awesome.

But the end of that mental cycle basically though is those areas light up that say, go back and see that person, then you are immediately unsatisfied about the fact that that's not happening. Right. That's when your prefrontal cortex trips into gear and that's when you get angry. And it's just that mental cycle that starts seeing that photo on a social media platform and ending up upset in the end. But the same study led by Helen Fisher found that after over time, the same process is

greatly degraded. Sure. I think they did a follow-up in, well, months, Congress says, found that the whole process and all of the neurochemicals and the brain regions are much less active, which again, it's just time. Give it time. Right, but if you don't give it time and you do the thing where you do get back together, that

can be great. You know, sometimes you can work it out and people can change. But there's a big caveat there. Well, right. Go ahead. No. No, no, no. You say yours.

Okay. All right. Because I think I'm talking about something else. So what I saw was that if you get back together, rather than saying like, this is a fresh start, we're gonna try this over again, we're gonna really make a go of it. If you do that, all you're going to do is just walk right back into the same pitfalls

and pratfalls because the separation probably did nothing or virtually nothing to your individual personalities, which are the source of all of your conflicts. So it's not like you just magically worked your conflicts out and you're getting back together and everything's fine. That's just a charade. But if you get back together and say, I decided I love you the way you are

and I don't wanna be away from you and I just accept you for you and I accept our relationship with all of its problems. You're probably going to have a successful reunion. If you go into it, like all of our problems are solved because we broke up, you're just going to do the same thing again down the line. And that's apparently a fairly frequent thing

that something like 60% or some crazy percentage of the younger generation, generation Y, I guess, the process of breaking up, the majority of them, that breakup involves getting back together multiple times. Right, with that person. Not just once, yeah. So you're getting back together

and just going through the same pattern. I think there's a field of thought and psychology called the scripts. These are scripts that we're playing out one another scripts. And if you don't alter the scripts, you're gonna go through the same script over and over again. You're working out the same things from your past or from your childhood against one another

and you're not doing it the right way. So all you're doing is creating conflict. And that doesn't just magically go away because you spent a couple months apart. You have to just say, I love you for who you are and we're going to just keep going. Yeah. I think what I was going to say was don't they think though that that also depends on just what kind of person you are in terms of thinking either people can really make substantial change

in their lives or they can't? That's how you deal with a breakup, which we'll talk about in a minute. That sounds like a good place for a break. I think so too. All right. Hi, I'm Martha Stewart and we're back with a new season of my podcast. This season will be even more revealing and more personal, with more entrepreneurs, more trailblazers, more live events, more Martha, and more questions from you.

I'm talking to my cosmetic dermatologist, Dr. Dan Belkin, about the secrets behind my skincare. Walter Isaacson about the geniuses who change the world. Angkor Jane about creating a billion dollar startup. Dr. Elisa Pressman about the five basic strategies to help parents raise good humans. Florence Fabricant about the authenticity in the world of food writing. Be sure to tune in to season two of the Martha Stewart podcast. Listen and subscribe to the Martha Stewart podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you think Abuelita knows best? We learned about the drama here, executive producer of the podcast De My Abuelita first.

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Listen today my abuelita first as part of the my cultura podcast network available on the iHeart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast if you are down to explore the magic of real life, join me on my podcast, Edgy Martinez IRL, where I candidly speak to icons like Alicia Keys, Killer Mike, Janelle Monay, Kelly Clarkson, and Kim Kardashian about the lessons in their real lives. Check out my interview with Superbowl Halftime show

performer, songwriter, dancer, and the newly married Usher about relationships. Having a partner who will be honest with you, brutally honest with you, and you can take that constructive criticism because you know it comes from a good place and you've spent enough time, your friends enough, and you've established trust.

Trust is the main component to happiness and success in a relationship. Being able to actually hear each other and speak up. It's hard right to to even know what you really want and what really matters. I think most of the time you we all just want to be heard. Listen to edge Martinez IRL on the I heart radio app Apple podcast and wherever you get your podcasts. Before we get to that, what we were just talking about before the split, um,

this is one piece of data, um data from the same sex couple community. Supposedly from studies, they do think that same sex couples are better at staying friends. Yeah, I saw that. After a breakup. Yeah. Which particularly lesbian couples. Yeah.

And then gay men and then straight couples are like. Forget about it. So long. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. Can you really be friends after, and it all depends on how intense and how long and how kind of a person you are, but yeah. It's interesting when I meet people that legitimately

are friends with people that they seriously dated years later It's pretty rare. I think actually I think it is too I think it seems less rare because you see it on like TV shows a lot, right, you know And it's also almost aspirational like oh look at how like How laid-back and like with these people are that they can be friends after this, you know I think it's pretty rare actually. I think it's an idealized form, right? how laid back and like with these people are that they can be friends after this, you know? I think it's pretty rare actually. I think it's an idealized form.

Right, or? Because people like to, you like to think that like you're on good terms with everybody in your life. I think that's usually the person breaking up though. There's like, I'd like to still be friends. Right, sure. Whereas the person getting broken up with this like,

or you could get hit by a car. Right, yeah. And that would solve the problem. Yeah. And then sticking with the whole same sex straight thing. Are we saying straight still? I don't know. That doesn't feel right, does it?

It doesn't. So let's just say same sex and hetero? Yeah. Hetero. There's a clinical name for it. Oh boy. So the time and marriage seem to be the two greatest indicators, at least as far as this one study I saw went

for the likelihood of staying together over long periods of time. Like all relationships, same sex and hetero, man, woman, all of them are at the greatest risk of breakup within the first year or two. And then it starts to drop precipitously. But I think married hetero couples have a fairly low rate of, a low chance of breaking up over time is pretty much flat the whole time.

And then with same-sex couples, the same thing happens. The chance of breakup is pretty high at the beginning, and then it starts to come down, and then it's basically tracks with hetero couples for marriage. So marriage is kind of the factor. Time is the second factor, but then time stops being a factor after like 30, 40 years for unmarried couples,

both hetero and same sex. They start to break up after a year like 30 or 40, like the chance of a breakup increases. Yeah, but once you get married, once you get a ring on it, over time, over like, you know, decades is what we're talking about. Your chance is almost nil of breaking up. All right.

Like less than I think a percent. But that doesn't sound right because they're like half of all marriages end a divorce. Yeah. This thing was way off. But maybe that's when taking into account, maybe that's front loaded by all the divorces that happened in the first five years or something like that.

Yeah, that would make a little bit more sense. Yeah, it does. They do find that your chances of getting over a breakup or adjusting to that new post-breakup life really centers around regaining your sense of self that when you couple up with someone, it's not saying you can't have a sense of self anymore because it's very healthy too. Sure.

But there's an inevitable absorption and morphing that happens. And a little bit of your sense of self goes away when you couple. Yeah, all the same friends, the same phone number. Yeah. And the same adre, yes. Yeah, boy, what about couples that share the email address?

Yeah, you mean I have one. Really? Sure. Never had one, but you have your own too. Well, yeah, we each have our own, but we have our shared one too. I think I'm talking about the people that just have the shared address. Sure. I've always found that interesting. Yeah, I'm judging.

I don't know anybody who just has a shared address. I don't get why people would have the same one, I guess. I just always, Emily sells a mindspring address. Wow, is it Emily at Mindspring.com? No, and that is the truth, because I'm not saying that just to keep people from emailing her, but she had it for so long, and I make fun of her all the time.

Sure. Because she still pays like $20 a year for this. What? And she was like, I've had it for so long that I just can't give it up. Well, that's why people will stay on Facebook. Yeah, like I'm not changing my email address. There's like so many memories there that it's like.

Well, even that just her contact list and every email, like I don't know, I just think it's funny. I was like, where's that money going? Right. Who owns what used to be mine? Todd Mindspring, the heir of the Mindspring fortune. He can count on 20 bucks a month from your house. You get a couple of packet cigarettes every month

because of Emily. Oh man. And then for recovery, the whole stress related growth thing that can happen with recovery, which is, and I think women tend to be more apt to do this than men, but like, all right, you know what? I'm free now. I'm gonna do all those things that I lost

While I was with him, right? I didn't have time for my friends anymore. I lost connections with them I didn't do I didn't fly model airplanes or RC airplanes anymore. I'm gonna drop some weight I'm gonna start eating healthier. Yeah the post breakup weight loss is a huge huge thing It is and partially from stress but partially just because like, I'm gonna make myself the best I can be. And I'll show her or him. I think it's also like just as simple as like more free time. Sure.

You know, too. And something to do that is, you know, exercise is also stress relieving. You might not be eating as much because your stomach is tied up into stress knots. Right. So there are a bunch of reasons for it. But here is that, here's where that,

that part you were talking about earlier, I said we would get to kind of kicks in, is how much of the self you identify with does relate to how well you handle a breakup. How much of your, how much of the you is the we in the relationship? And what they found is that that's a huge part of it, but more significant is the amount of growth that happens while you're in a relationship.

Like you can share a tremendous amount of the same self with your significant other and grow as a person as a result. And if you do that, you're actually going to have a harder breakup because that we, that that super attachment that led to that personal growth is related to that other person who's now gone. Whereas if you were, even if you were totally enmeshed with another person, but you didn't grow much personally, if you experience a burst of growth after the breakup,

you're going to have the easiest breakup of all. Even though you were super in mess with the person, you weren't growing, but then you grow afterward. Now that period of non growth is related to that person who's gone and you can be like, so long, zero, I'm gonna make myself a hero. Yeah. Do you see?

Sure. Did they come across? Yeah. Cause sometimes I'm not the best at explaining things. Which is pretty funny, if you think about it. It really is. In 2000, they did a study at Northwestern University where they did find out though that they asked people,

I believe, how bad do you think this breakup is going to be if you're in a relationship? What if you broke up? And then they found out that they weren't as bad off as they thought they would be, which is encouraging. It is, but also think about this, Chuck. These vultures who are running the study were like, you're in a relationship,

just we're gonna study just in case you guys break up. And so they would get that info, that self-reporting info about how bad the breakup would be. And then they swooped in upon the breakup, they're like, how bad is it? Tell us. And the person was like, well, this is as bad as it is. And it was almost across the board,

not anywhere near as bad as the people thought it would be when they were in the relationship. Which is pretty surprising. And what was even more surprising is the more in love you are, the easier it's going to be relative to how bad you think it will be during the relationship. Right.

Which makes sense if you stop and think about it. Yeah, I thought the other interesting thing too when we were talking about getting over a breakup and your sense of self, that's closely tied to how you feel about rejection. And there are a couple of ways, I mean more than a couple of ways, but if your reflection of your, how you think about rejection is tied heavily into how you feel about yourself. So there's some people that might be rejected and it might devastate them because they start to analyze themselves and what did I do wrong and what's wrong with me. There's a whole other camp out there and I think this goes into personality and ego and

all that stuff. You call these people healthy. Or sociopaths. Oh, you think so? Maybe. Oh, I took it to be healthy. It's probably on a range. Wow.

We just put both of our cards on the table, didn't we? But the people that are like, yeah, I got broken up with and I got rejected, but you know. S happens. That happens in life. People get rejected. It's not because of me. It's not everyone, you know, to be together.

You find this quote sociopathic. I learned that two people can both be quality individuals, but that doesn't mean they belong together. That's sociopathic to you? That was, oh wait, it says he said that. It was Ted Bundy. Patrick Bateman. No, no, no, I don't think it necessarily

necessarily means you're a sociopath, but I think someone with, that is a true sociopath would probably be way more apt to be like, oh yeah, well. It was them, not me. Yeah, it's like, it's fine. People just break up. There's a subgroup to that sociopath, it's like it's fine. I see your break up There's a sub a subgroup to that sociopath as you call it camp and they are like well breakups happen I heard what the other person said and there's some things I feel like I need to work on like sick

I was a terrible communicator, so I'm gonna work on becoming a better communicator as a result That's called stress related growth. Yeah is what that called. Where you're growing out of this horrific experience. And that's healthy, that's super healthy. But the key is, what's unhealthy is to say, this was all because of some fatal flaw that I have. That's part of my personality that I'll never be able to get rid of. And so all I'm going to do is poison every

relationship from here on out and I'm just gonna build walls and keep everybody at a distance Yeah, some people do yeah as a result of a breakup and you can't do that Even if your brain starts to go that way this research says stop it. Don't you have to disassociate yourself Become the sociopath. I guess, if need be, to say this is not because of an inherent flaw in me that's uncorrectable. Even if the person was right, even if they're like, you're a terrible communicator

and you have serious mommy issues, that doesn't mean that you will always be a terrible communicator with serious mommy issues. You could work on those post breakup and become a much better SO to the next person or whatever. The key is not being a fatalist. Like there's nothing you can do to change. And then also you should evaluate

whether the person was saying that in anger, how much faith you put in their opinion of you. There's a lot of factors that you need to take into account before you take on that kind of thing that just puts you in the bottom of a well, where you could conceivably hang out for the rest of your life if you're not careful, without copious amounts of therapy.

Yeah, agreed. Or turning to drugs and alcohol, which is a big... Gin. Yeah, big thing that a lot of people do. Gin cuts both ways. Should we talk about some of these tips from this guy? Psychologist Guy Wynch. Remember, number one is don't check up on them on social media. Good luck with that. Here's why. He says that this will reinforce your ex's presence in your mind and will make it harder for you to stop fantasizing about your broken relationship. You're basically just like literally keeping them right there in front of your face through social media, which is why it's a bad idea. Number two, avoid creating mysteries about why the breakup happened.

And again, this is along those same lines of just keeping your ex like forefront in your mind, which is hard. I mean, it's going to take a little while. Sure. No one expects you the next day to pop up and just be like, well, they're out of my mind. That's sociopathic. Yeah.

Even if you're the breaker upper, you know, it doesn't mean that you don't have a process to go through as well. Sure. You know. But that's why he says avoid creating mysteries. Like it's probably going to happen, but like be mindful when it's going on and be like enough, I'm gonna go work out or go drink some gin. Or both.

Number three, make a list of all the comprom, oh, this is a good one. Make a list of all the compromises that you had to make that you don't wanna make again. Start to think about like, yeah, you know, when I was with this person, I felt like I could never really have my real sense of humor out in public because they thought it was loud. That counters that rehashing that just focuses on the positive.

Yeah. It cuts the legs out from under that. That legs. What about number four? Do the things that used to bring you enjoyment is kind of what I was talking about earlier, even if they don't seem interesting now, that whole thing where like,

geez, I used to really love pottery and throwing clay. And I just quit doing it once I started dating Josh. Yeah, this is me talking. I'll have no clay throwing in my house. And Josh hated it when Chuck went to the Potter's Wheel because it reminded him of Ghost and Josh hated that movie. So he wouldn't allow me to do it.

But you know what? I'm gonna reclaim that pottery wheel. Yeah. Which is ironic, because I was always walking around our house just like Patrick Swayze in that scene. But I still hated that movie. Oh. That was more like the Chris Farley Chippendale.

Oh yeah. Patrick Swayze version. Number five, remove reminders. This is the box that you will burn. Which is now just your laptop in the fireplace. Right. In your smartphone. And then like reconnect in your smartphone.

And then like reconnect with your friends. Like, yeah, you left them in the dust years ago, but they're still alive. They probably wouldn't mind hearing from you. Yeah, the problem here is, is if you truly do have a mix of friends that you both love, and it's not like I didn't leave behind all my old friends, or the worst case scenario is like,

all of my friends are from you. Now what do I do? Go down to the YMCA and make some new friends. I guess so. I found this one last study I thought was interesting, the best way to get over a breakup according to science. This was actually published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology, and they tested a bunch of strategies for getting over a breakup. 24 heartbroken people, ages 20 to 37, that had been in at least a two and a half year

relationship. It's a pretty significant. Some were dumpies, some were dumpers. And they said there were three strategies. One is to negatively reappraise your ex. Like just think about all the bad things. The other one was called Love Reappraisal, which is believe and read statements like,

it's okay to love someone I'm no longer with. It's all right. And then the third was Distraction, literally the ice cream and movies trick. The black mirror trick. And then there was the fourth prompt, which was the control, which was don't think about anything.

Of course, means you're thinking of the state of March of Elements. Don't think about anything. Really just undermine the science of that study. Clear brain. So those were the four prompts. Then they showed everyone, they hooked everyone up to an EEG machine,

showed them photos of their exes, and they measured the intensity of emotion in response to that photo, and then had them use these different prompts to see which one works best. When they looked in, the people who were not thinking about anything, they were bleeding out of their eye sockets. They were.

And according to the readings, all three of the strategies significantly decreased their emotional response to the photos. Really? Relative to the control. If you looked at your ex in a negative light, that first one, like, oh, they were such a jerk. You had a decrease in feelings of love,

but you left in a worse mood, like that, judged up bad feelings. Like you wasted your time or something on that? Maybe, or just like, just really took me off thinking about all that stuff, you know? So now it's dumb study. Gotta go throw some clay. That's right.

Distraction made you feel better overall, but didn't that have much of an effect on how you really felt about them? You just didn't leave in necessarily a bad mood. You just got ice cream and watched a funny movie. Good enough. Which is fine, but they said that that doesn't do anything long-term to help you recover. Just like a temporary whatever. Does it prolong it though, do you think?

I mean, you know as much as the people conducting this. It said it's a form of avoidance that is shown to reduce the recovery. Okay, so it would prolong it then. I guess so. Everybody stop eating ice cream and watching Black Mirror. And then love appraisal showed no effect on your mood or how you feel about them,

but it did dull the emotional response a little bit. So there's really nothing to do. Doesn't sound like it. I saw a couple more tips. One is you could write a letter that under no circumstances will you ever send. Yeah, that's a good trick. It only does that.

Not for love relationships, but just like anything bothering her. It also really works well for grieving too. You just write a letter. Sure. And you say whatever you want because you know for a fact that the other person will never read it.

Dear jerk. You can say whatever you want. And it's just like a cathartic process that can help hasten things. And then also, why do sad songs feel so good when you're going through a breakup? Why do people seek out sad songs? And the best explanation I saw, the best theory

is that a song is a little capsule of emotion. When you're seeking out a sad song, you're confronting the very emotions that you're probably stifling right then. And confronting it in such a raw form forces you to express those emotions, i.e. cry. And that helps you process them faster because you're not pushing them off any longer.

You're expressing them, you're sorting through them. So that's what sad songs make you do. That's why people seek out sad songs when they're down. And it actually helps hasten recovery. Lady in red. I don't think that's a sad song. This standing with me. That's the saddest song.

You're like sailing takes me away. That sailing by Christopher Cross, Lady in red. And then Dan Fogelberg's saying same old Langzine. Right. Three saddest songs. Jerry knows that song. Those were two Christopher Cross songs. He's got same old Langzine. Right. Three Saddest Songs. Jerry knows that song. Those were two Christopher Cross songs. He's got two of the three Saddest Songs.

No, Lady and Red's not Christopher Cross. I think it is. No. Five dollars. Jerry, we're all nodding now. Five dollars is on the table. All right, I'll look it up. Well, you guys will find out next episode

whether I was right or not. I remember the guy's name. It's Christopher Cross. Oh. Jerry's doing one of her rare speaking parts. She says, Christ, Christoph Waltz? That's the actor. You know what's funny is I mistyped something and it changed my search to lady in red wings.

Like red wing boots. Boots. Must be a fetish site. I guess so, yeah. If you want to get in touch with me, Chuck or Jerry, you can shoot us an email to Stuff Podcast at HowStuffWorks.com. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. live events and more questions from you. I'm talking to my cosmetic dermatologist, Dr. Dan Belkin,

about the secrets behind my skincare. I'm corduating about creating a billion dollar startup. Walter Isaacson about the geniuses who change the world. Listen and subscribe to the Martha Stewart podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Buenas, mis amores. This is Vico Ortiz, host of Dave MyAualita First each week.

Myself, alongside our resident abuelita Liliana Montenegro, es a soyooo. Play matchmaker for a group of hopeful romantics in this fun, flirty and hilarious game show. Let's see if Cheesepuss will fly or if these singles will be sent back to the dating apps. Listen to Dave Myowally the first on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Seifer. And I'm Gerry O'Shea. We spent over 30 years in the CIA uncovering global conspiracies. Conspiracies aren't just a theory to us, which is why we started our podcast, Mission and Plausible. Everyone has questions about conspiracy theories, but with our background, we can actually answer

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