Stuff You Should Know - Selects: Where Did Trick-Or-Treating Come From?

Episode Date: October 21, 2023

We aren’t exactly sure who invented trick-or-treating – kids who realized they could extort adults for candy, or adults who bought off kids in exchange for laying off pranks? The bigger question is: Will trick-or-treating survive the 21st century? Learn more in this classic episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I've chosen our 2019 episode on Trick or Treating. It's a really in-depth look at trick or treating, and it's got a lot of surprising stuff inside. Like, it turns out that if you don't set a band and buildings on fire on Halloween, then you've been trick or treating all wrong all this time. But don't worry, we're releasing this just in time for you to learn the ropes this Halloween.

Happy and extremely safe Halloween, everybody. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I Heart Radio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryan over there. There's Jerry and this is stuff you should know. The right before Halloween edition. About... Trick or Treat. Yeah, like a little kid every Halloween.

I'm pretty excited about it. Yeah, do you get trick or treaters? No, not really. No. Kind of life, hashtag, etc. Yeah, and I've told my story before, but I'll just briefly summarize again that my house is after a big curve in the road and people seem to just stop at that curve in the road. Well, they don't want to come up on Old Man's Bryant's house.

No. You know, the old dead oak tree with the big hole in it that Bu'radly hides figures in as kind of off-putting as a right on your property. And I think in my neighborhood too, they close, they literally close off, the cops close off to blocks. There's just this big square of streets and that's the official sanctioned no stress area where the parents all just walk around and get drunk and all the kids just run around and don't have to worry about cars.

So everyone in my neighborhood is congregated there. And you're outside of them. And outside of them. I'm for zone. Yeah, which I kind of miss. Like, I like trick-or-treaters coming to my house. I guess I could maybe try and, well, I can move a few houses in,

which I'm not gonna do. We could casually move the roadblocks a little further back to include your house. Well, there are actual police cars with police officers. I can't move them. Give them some toys. But I could put signs that this way for the best yet, and then you're like, only two more houses.

Right, or leave a trail of candy. Because I remember when I first moved to Atlanta, we rented a house that got a lot of trick or treaters, and I loved it, man. I scared it the heck out of those kids. Oh, really? Yeah, it was a lot of fun. Like, I really got,

that was my first big adult giving out candy night. Like, the first time I've ever been able to do that. Because you didn't have kids yet, so we weren't out of trick-or-treating. And, yeah, I made a really, a pontium music out, like the psychotherm and scary John Carpenter stuff. I really enjoyed it. Did you, like, do anything to overtly scare them? Oh, yes.

I wore a, I was dressed up as a very scary person. And I would jump out and scare them. Over and over and over. Did you really jump out? Good for you, Chuck. Or I would stand in the, like, Emily would be giving out candy and I would just Tover and over and over. Did you really jump out? Good for you, Chuck. Or I would stand in the, like, Emily would be giving out candy,

and I would just be in the darkened house, like eight feet behind her just standing there motionless. That's always a nice. To the tack. Nice. But point is, I sort of feel like we're missing out. Like, we certainly enjoy taking our daughter out,

but I really wish we had kids that came by. Yeah, I wish you did too. It's too bad. Yeah. A stupid house right there near the main road. It's so close yet so far away. So far away. Yeah.

And that's your forever house too, huh? Yeah. No trigger treaters ever again for you. And walked in there. But what we could do is, you know, we could go to a friend's house and... That's a count that you have to like. Jump on their coattails. You can't sit on their couch.

You have to take your shoes off in their house. You can't be comfortable. We've long talked me and my friend Eddie and Allison, you know them about they have a good backyard about doing like a haunted trail one year. That like if you come trick or treating, you gotta go through the trail first. It sounds like a lot of work.

It is and it would be fun. No, I mean for the kids. No. Who have to go through the trail? Gotta earn. Right, you gotta earn that free candy. Earn that Reese's Pieces. So we just had upon like 15 different themes

in this episode, if you'll agree. If you agree? Yes. So we're talking about trick or treating here. And if you look at the thing on its face, just the words trick or treat, there seems to be some sort of option here. You can do one or the other.

There used to be, give me a treat or you get a trick basically was the equation. Yeah, they should just change the name now to just treat night, treat night, right, exactly. We aren't 100% sure on where trick or treating came from. But what we do know is that it was originated in America in the 20th century, and that there was this, like brief golden age where it lived up to its name,

trick or treat. There was an offer to not get pranked or tricked. And if you didn't take the people up on the offer, the kids up on the offer by Givin' Home Candy, you got pranked. That was the equation. It was in the name. Everybody knew the score.

And then it slowly kind of moved over to what we understand today where the police set up or oblox and everything is safe. These kids these days. And it's just kind of, just like you said, just the treat side of the equation. Yeah, I was, of course, kidding, but we'll get to it.

There are people that really do decry this new generation of children who just expect handouts and that it leads to the idea of the welfare state and all this other garbage that I have no patience for. Sure. Cause it's just a fun thing for kids. Yeah. Or do you think they should be earning the stuff?

No, no, no, no, I don't feel that way. I do feel, well, I think it'll come through loud and clear as we do the episode. All right. Well, we should jump back a little bit to the origins of Halloween. We've gone over this before and episodes pass, but we all know it originally started as a pagan harvest or not just one, but pagan harvest festivals in general among the Celts over in the UK. Yes. And that evolved into Halloween, but it had nothing to do with trick or treating at the time.

No, it wasn't around. Again, trick or treating is a 100% American invention. That's right. And so with Halloween in particular, you've got all these different components for the modern Halloween or for trick or treating. Yes. You have going from house to house,

you have getting to said house and asking for a treat, basically sanctioned begging. Got your costume. Costume dressing up, got being outside kind of parading around. All of these things find their origin in the Celtic, and I think specifically Gaelic harvest festivals that introduced the dark half of the year.

That's right. And in particular, there was Salwyn, which forever I've always said Sam Hain, because that's how it's spelled. Now you said Salwyn, right? When we did our Halloween episode, didn't you? Probably. By the way, speaking of Salwyn or Sam Hain,

you realized that I went to New York and saw the misfits on Saturday. Oh yeah, how was that? It was great. Colossally amazing. This is the original misfits, right? The original misfits, Glenn Danzig, Gary Only, Doyle Wolfgang von Frankenstein,

who actually specifically invited us to this, if you should know, listen, right? Yeah, to this show, and it was... That's amazing. Knock your socks off of me. Didn't the damn play as well? The damned open, and then rancid, and then the misfits just tore the roof off the sucker.

I saw, when I saw you were going, I looked up some YouTube clips of this tour, and it looked pretty amazing. It was amazing, and I think Glenn D'Ansig said that was their last one ever. Oh, really? And so we got to see it. Yeah, you mean I went, had a great time.

Amazing. So big, big thanks to Doyle Wolfgang von Frankens time for the invite. The stage that I put great. It was, it was just a really cool show and they played almost everything. Yeah. Yeah, it was just really good show. That's fantastic. So anyway, back to Stauwen. Yeah, so, I mean, that's a perfect time to mention that show though. It all worked out. It did. Um, Hallows Eve was the, uh, the night considered when the veil between the living and the dead was the shortest. Mm-hmm.

And so that's when this, uh, that's when Halloween formed. Right, right. So people would dress up, uh, in like modern day Ireland, Scotland. I believe Wales, yeah, well of man. They would dress up like demons or fairies or supernatural characters who were, because this veil was so thin between the living and the dead or the supernatural.

Right. They could cross over. These creatures could cross over and communicate. So if you dressed up like them, maybe they would be confused and think you're one of them and leave you alone. That's right. So now we've got the costume thing going, right?

That's right. And part of that was the community getting together, getting drunk on, you know, probably high octane, mead, mead and stuff like that. And they would parade through the town. They saw Halloween parades all over the place. Here in Atlanta, we have one of the best

and little five points, Halloween parade, fantastic. Like when you think about the Halloween parade at your town, like that is centuries millennia old. That tradition is. Yeah, so we have those two things going on. And then the one missing piece is knock knock, hey hey give me candy. Right.

But this we have the origins of which came and it's still not Halloween. It took American kids to put all this stuff together. But the European tradition of solding, which was when kids on Halozee would go from house to house and pray for the souls of the departed and in exchange you would get a soul cake. Yeah, which I looked up, they looked pretty good. What is it, just a little bit good? It looks like a muffin top, like top of the muffin to you. Ah, it looks really good. Soul cakes. Or mumbing, which is, in this sense, fantastic. I wish kids still had to do this stuff. You would have to perform a short musical number

or some kind of performance to get a treat of some kind, maybe a little spare change. Right, so in that sense, you have going to house to house and getting something from the owners of the house like a treat or something like that. That's right.

But there was a reason for that praying for the soul of their departed loved one, doing a little dance number, something like that. The prank part, the prank part of the equation, that also existed before trick or treating too. And in fact, that was kind of the origin of the biggest tradition of Halloween itself was pranking. Yeah, and that came from Ireland, is that right? Yeah, supposedly in the 1880s, they would just run around doing pranks, and then they would blame those fairies or demons on Sowing for the mischief that it wasn't us, it was

the fairies. On Samhine. Right. I mean, it sounds, that's how it's spelled. Yeah, it's really, that's a confounding pronunciation. It is, but there you have it. That's right. And then pranks back then, and of course, we're pretty low-key ding dong ditch stuff like that, moving the neighbor's furniture to the roof.

I saw that. Yeah. Like flower pot on the chimney. Sure. But it would also get way, way worse than that. Yeah, I looked up a mischief night. We never did that in Georgia. No. Four Devils night, it was also called. Yeah, which is the night before Halloween when all these pranks would happen. Regent or Regent is called different. Apparently in New Jersey, it's mischief night. For cabbage night? Well, in Camden, New Jersey, it's mischief night.

Other parts of New Jersey like call it cabbage night. Since Anada calls it damage night. That's pretty over. That's a punk band name right there. Damage Night. Totally. That insurance deductible night. Other part, I don't know why Ohio is so highly represented here. Beggars Night is something else I called it no, Ohio. Check because there's nothing else to do in Ohio. But sit around and wait for that night for Hallows Eve. Other names, doorbell night, trick night, corn night, tic-tac-night, goosey night,

and then in Canada, gate night, or mat night if you're in Quebec, in the MAT. They would steal the gate off your fence or the mat from your doorstep and remove it, yeah. Yeah, okay. So they're pretty on the nose, especially the the mat from your doorstep and remove it. Yeah. Okay. So they were pretty on the nose, especially the Camage Knight. But Devil's Knight in Detroit, it became legendary over about a 20 year period in the 70s

and through the mid 90s I saw before they finally got a little bit of a, could put a dent in it by forming angels night. Yeah, they kind of rebranded it. Well, not rebranded, the angels were volunteers who would walk around to keep kids from setting everything on fire. Oh, okay, because that's what they did on Devil's Night. It was a night of ours.

It was a night of ours. I thought that it ran, it's of course, because they burned all the buildings down in Detroit. There was nothing else left. It was a real problem though. I looked into it and like hundreds of course, because they burned all the buildings down in Detroit, there was nothing else left. It was a real problem, though. I looked into it and like hundreds of kids, like in 1994, I think there were like 315 kids arrested for several night fires and other stuff. In 1984, the peak of devil's night in Detroit, there were 810 cases of arson in one night

in Detroit. Yeah. They would just set the city on fire. And I'm sure some of these were bags of poop on a doorstep, right? Which I think we can all agree is harmless fun. It is unless you're the steppe. So I never did any of this stuff. I never rolled a house. Oh, you didn't know. That was fun. Oh, I'm so mad. I was so busy being good. So it's number two late, buddy. I know, I should roll a house from Fork a yard. I don't know what that is. The plastic forks just basically get like 2,000 plastic forks and stick them in the yard.

Oh, really? I've never heard of that. You never did that. I've really chewed up a lawn mower. I never egged a house because I always heard that I really dammit, just paint. But we did have the junior senior egg fight every year. That was kind of fun.

Well, you got something. We could get together in a field and they'll exit each other. Aside from wasting a lot of it's resource with, well, eggs yes, but also toilet paper, you really should roll somebody's house at least once in your life. It's great.

Is it? Yeah. All right. Yeah, I'm gonna roll your condo. I remember when I was a kid actually, my friend and I rolled the neighbor's house, but we had to be in our release, so we were doing it basically in broad daylight. It was dusk at best. Yeah. And a cop drove by which never happened. In our neighborhood, ever, never, the cops just weren't needed, right? It was just, I think we'd

talked about in the free range episode, the range parents episode, you could just do whatever. And we had to knock out the house of the neighbor whose house we just rolled to let us in to hide from the cop. Oh wow. And she went out and told the cop like it's fine, don't worry about it. We rolled her house and had to get safe harbor from her. Yeah, and you can't really clean up a rolled house, can you?

You can, and I can't have. The check the house, can you? You can, and I hang out. And I hang out. If they come tell your parents what you did. How do you do that? The rain makes it way worse. Yeah, but I mean, you can't climb up there, can you? Right, some of it's inevitably stuck up there, but you can pull it down as gingerly as you can

to get as much as you can, but no, some's gonna be left over. All right, I'm gonna roll a house. Okay, just know who's house you're rolling. Like, you don't wanna get shot at or anything like that. I'm going to roll a house. Okay. Just know who's house you're rolling. Like you don't want to get shot at or anything. I don't see that anymore either. I feel like it. I mean, I don't live in the suburbs. Maybe it's a little more prone to happen there. Yeah. But it seems like a lost art. If very well, maybe I don't know anybody who rolls. I just assumed it was because we'd outgrown it, you know?

It really called it T peeing a house. Yeah. that's Ohio. Yeah, yep, T-peeing. All right, let's take a break. We've barely talked about this. I think we're one page in. Good, that's great. All right. What is this place? Wait, why my handcuffed? What am I doing here? 13 days of Halloween, Penance.

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All of these things are out there floating around, have been out there for centuries, millennia, by the time America is born and makes it to the 20th century. And at some point, some kids said, we think, hey, you know what, we can pull all this together and turn it into something really amazing and peculiar and unique called trick-or-treating. That's right. You found a great piece from a sociologist named Samira Kawash, called Gangsters, Prangsters, and Trick-or-Treating 1930 to 1960. And is this that pure period that you were talking about,

where she thinks that American kids just created this thing? Yeah, there's two historical views, because we don't know where it came from. One historical view, and I think this is what Kawaush believes, too, is that it was actually kids who figured this out. Which is great.

Who said we can extort adults to not prank them if they give us treats. Right. And that it was a genuinely, a kid invention of kids, they made it up. Right. And there's some evidence for that kind of thing. A lot of like the early newspaper accounts of it

kind of call the kids gangsters and say they're extorting people. It's also possible that was like written super tongue and cheek. Right. And that dry, it was kind of dry and lost to the ages. Yeah. The other historical view is that the kids were out pranking and doing the pranks and it was the adults that introduced treats into the equation to buy them off. Oh, okay. Yeah, to keep them from pranking. Right. Los Angeles, possibly, as the point of origin, and this one, wealthy kids, I guess that

makes sense that this would be the idea of like kids of privilege. Sure. You know, like come around, give me stuff. But apparently in Los Angeles, kids in the wealthy parts of town would dress up and their parents would take them around from house to house. And this is, this is that pre-1930 period though. Yeah, they think sometime in the 20s. And if you think about it, that really resembles what we do today.

Yeah. But in between that origin and where we've arrived today there was this pure period 1930 to 1960 some people might even take it a little further beyond that where the kids seem to have run the show and They're there really was both sides of the equation a trick or a treat right But that term actually was in 1927 in an article, right? It's at the first time they found the two words in print together, or I guess three words. That was in an article about a town called Blacki

in Alberta, Canada. Yeah. And it seems like all of it was sort of on the West Coast early on. Yeah. And again, they think possibly it did originate in Los Angeles, or it may have originated

in multiple towns on the West Coast, roughly at the same time. But we're thinking 20s because in 1919, there was a book by Ruth Edna called... Ruth Edna Kelly. Ruth Edna Kelly called the book of Halloween, and it didn't mention any kind of trick or treating in there. No, and it's like an exhaustive, comprehensive homemaker's overview.

Yeah, it would have been in there. Right, for sure. And you got to think, like poor Ruth and Achilles, like, gosh, if I just waited like two years to put this book out, they're going to come up with something brand new with Halloween. I know. Two years after I'd come up with this book, I wrote the book on it.

Right, not quite. Now it's out of date. But they did find mentions of it in newspapers, Out West, Portland, Washington, Reno, Nevada, Helena, Montana. Yeah, and you can kind of track its progress from the dates. Yeah. And mentions in West East. From paper articles, right.

Yeah. So there is those two sides. One say that it was kids who came up with it on their own. Perhaps they were introduced with the idea of going from house to house to get treats in Los Angeles, but then they said, well, we're also doing these prankings. Maybe we can say, hey, we won't prank you if you give us a treat. There's that view. The other view again is that it was adults who said, whoa, kids, we don't want you setting fires any longer, derailing street cars because everyone's well, somebody would die. People would get shot at by angry neighbors.

Sometimes somebody would be in one of those buildings that they set on fire and they'd die. People would die in a building that kids set on fire as a Halloween prank. So for the most part though, it was this kind of tolerated as one night a year when the kids basically had power and were allowed to run the show. So this idea, this other historical view that adults finally said, hey, we're not going to just say you can't do pranking, there probably be a bad thing. But why don't we just start having parties on Halloween night while we're out pranking?

And there'll be cider and donuts, and you can come inside and Bob for apples and Maybe do that instead of running around pranking the neighborhood and once you did do that You went from and this is Samir Kallwash putting it like you Under the rules of society you went from this powerful kid who could levy a prank on you if he or she wanted to To a house guest of the adult who now had you in and had given you donuts and cider. You're really going to set their house on fire

as a prank after that? Of course not. No, you're not going to. So in this sense, trick or treating was something the adults introduced to keep kids from carrying out these pranks. Yeah, and it was by the time World War II came around, it was a big thing in the 1940s, but of course with the sugar rationing and just the fact that there was World War II going

on, it put a dent in it for a little while, but it came back bigger than it ever had been after the war. And I mean, seriously, it came very close to dying out from World War II. It was pretty new, it hadn't gained that much traction. There were a lot of cranks and grumps who were not happy about this kind of thing. I'm curious what else had died in the war and never came back. There's got to be lots of little things. That's a great question.

You know, you can look it up. Yeah. But there were a couple of big pop culture sort of tent poles that helped Halloween along Charles Schultz's peanuts of course. Yeah, it wasn't the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown yet That was the 60s. I think yeah, but in 1951 he had a four-day Comic strip run around Halloween where the peanuts gang got already and got their costumes going And that really brought it to the forefront. And then Donald Duck, there was a cartoon,

Donald Duck Trick or Treat, a year after that, that had Donald working with his nephews, or trying to prank his nephews, while they were trick or treating, and working with the witch. And then the candy companies get involved. There was also a very famous costume company called Ben Cooper Costumes. Yeah, there's just famous costume company called Ben Cooper costumes.

Yeah, there's the one she did like the cheap. Yes, plastic mask, like a vinyl smock. That's right. But they they had this really great talent of identifying what was going to be like a pop culture phenomenon before it ever blew up. Yeah, they get the right for cheap. Yeah. But they were also making these things like 10 months before. Yeah. So they really had to have foresight and they were really good at it. But the fact that you could get cheap, amazing costumes that the little kids all wanted of their favorite characters. That definitely helped things along too. Yeah, it was...

It's hard to overstate like how big of a deal it was to a kid to be the certain whatever they wanted to be. I think it's still that way. I'm sure it is. But now it's a lot easier, I think to buy costumes. Right. I think when you and I were kids, there's a lot of fashioning costumes.

Uh-huh. When you didn't have the ability to be like the alien from alien or, you know, it was a lot harder to put together these elaborate costumes. But once you got your heart set on it, you had to. Sure. So I'm going to tell you my best costume and you tell me yours, okay?

Okay. My mom made one from scratch, clown, just a clown costume. But the big kicker was that it was an upside-down clown walking on his hands. So my feet were the clown's hands. His head is like dangling between my legs. I've got his legs sticking up off of my shoulders. And I don't remember my head must've been covered up like I was in his butt or something.

Right. But I was upside down walking clown. Greatest costume ever. Really? Yeah. Got any pictures? Somewhere, yeah. Okay.

I did a lot of funny ones. Like my brother and I were Han Solo and Luke Skywalker when I was really little. Nice. But then I got into like, I was always wanting to do like funny characters. I like, like Ed Grimley one year, the Saturday Night Live character.

I did Ed Grimley one year. You were the good one. And I was, I don't know, I felt like I was always trying to make people laugh. I never did scary stuff. Right. Until little kids started coming around and trick-or-treating me at your house.

Yes. So you started to skate? More like movie characters. Mm-hmm. Even into my adult years, I would try and find some cool movie character like H.I. from Raising Arizona. I did one year. That's a good one. It's almost a grimly same here.

No, not the same at all. Actually. And then one year I did a great, I actually won a contest in New Jersey when you were when I was a hearty kushna. And I like a shape ahead, I did the whole thing. Wow. I had literature, I passed out. Wow. Made the whole deal.

You just ended up joining a local chapter? It's for a little while. It was fine, really got into the role. But it's been a few years since I've dressed up. Yes, same here. Because I just... Oh, that's not true. I haven't been to a Halloween party in probably five years.

Right. What were you last year? I was Patrick Bateman from American Psycho. Oh. So you were you, but with a tie. Right, exactly. And like a giant inflatable brick cell phone. Uh-huh.

And Yumi was a specific Michael Jackson, a moment of Michael Jackson's history where he's holding blanket over the balcony. Oh sure. And Momo was blanket. It's not, you can see it on Instagram. That's great. I'll have to check that out.

All right, so the candy company started getting involved. It's where I left off. Yeah. And the costume company. They knew it was gold for them. Mars incorporated in the early 1950s. We're doing ad campaigns on TV and in newspapers and on the radio and stuff about trick-or-treat.

It became a thing with UNICEF. They had a trick-or-treat for UNICEF campaign back then. I think they still might. You know, I'm talking about the little boxes that holds change. Yeah. And they would just give them to little kids, and while they were out trick-or-treating, they'd also ask for change for unicef to help needy kids overseas. And that actually went a really long way to legitimizing trick-or-treating.

Yeah, they're doing a lot in these days too, for kids, special needs kids. Like it's taken this long to finally get the word out. Like the blue pumpkins have you heard of those? If you trick or treat with a blue pumpkin, that means that you have some sort of special need where you may not be able to walk to a front door and say trick or treat, I'm dressed as Michigan J. Bullfrog. What?

That'd be a great costume. It would be, but did you pull it off of it? I just made, yeah. Wow. Nice. He's been on my mind lately. I guess so. But so people know like, oh, you've got a blue pumpkin. So I shouldn't say like, you know, come on, kid, why don't you tell me what your costume is? And it's good though. Like, it's taken, it's ironic that it's taken this long to get parents on board to the fact that some kids need, you know, different kinds of treatment. I don't know if I run and kids the best word as much as disappointing is.

Yeah, you know. You're probably right. Should we take another break? Oh my god, we're going to have to take three more. No, we're not. Okay, yes, we will then. What is this place? Wait, why my handcuffed? What am I doing here?

13 days of Halloween penance. Season four of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio. Where am I? Why this is the Pendleton. All residents please return to your habitation. Like stuff on your feet. You knew here, so I'll say it once. No talking. Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead to Me. Am I under arrest? We don't like to use that word. Can I leave of my own free will? Not at this time. So this is a prison name?

No. It's a rehabilitation center. Premiering October 19th, ending Halloween. I'm going to get out. And how may I escort you going to do that? Escape. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, over ever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton back with a new season of my podcast, You and Me Both. On this show, I'll be talking to people I admire about many things, including one of my favorite subjects, Getting Things Done. We'll hear from folks in positions of power like Democratic House leader Hakeem Jeffries, but also writers and actors, community organizers,

really anyone who shows up every day and keeps doing the work. There's so much out there to distract us, but all of my guests bring tremendous passion and commitment, an ability to block out the noise, and I should probably warn you lots of sports metaphors. You stay calm and focused on releasing the ball, getting it to a receiver, and hopefully getting it into the end zone on behalf of the American people. So join me for this conversation and more. Listen to you and me both on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you looking to carve out your own spiritual path and connect with a higher power?

Maybe you're on a quest for meaning purpose or a sense of belonging. Perhaps you grew up in a religion that doesn't quite align with who you are right now, or maybe you've lost your connection to God and want to find your way back. Or if you're like a lot of people, you're simply trying to make sensible world that sometimes seems overwhelming and confusing. Welcome to What's God Got To Do With It, a podcast with a fresh and relatable take on spirituality and faith. I'm your host, Leanne Ellington, and this podcast was designed to be a place where you can

meet yourself exactly where you are on your own journey, without judgment or shame, and without worrying about whether you're doing it air quotes right. It's your spiritual safe space where skepticism and doubt are welcome. It's a place where faith meets science and miracles meet real life, all while inviting you into the conversation that your heart, soul, and spirit

needs. Listen to what God got to do with it on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. it means. Listen to what's God got to do with it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I said, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John,

John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John, John 50s, trigger treating was huge and established.

So if 1930 and 1960 was the heyday, the golden age of trigger treating, 1950 to 1959 was the salad days of the heyday. Right, and when did people start complaining about it? The 70s? No. And 80s? No. 90s. Far back as the 20s.

Oh, really? Yeah, because those newspaper articles that you can track the progress of Halloween, more often than not, they were like old cranks complaining about how they didn't want to have to give tricks or treats or whatever little kids. Right. Don't you blackmail me.

Yeah, exactly. You know, what are we teaching our kids? And there's actually, if you kind of scratch beneath the surface of trick or treating, at first it appears to be kind of a weird power struggle between kids and adults. And it definitely is that. But there's also another power struggle going on between adults of two different minds. One, two, you are over parenting by being upset about this, or like this is just one night a year,

it's good for kids. And other people are saying like, this is terrible for kids. Allowing them to go from house to house to beg is just a bad idea. It's unsafe is another way to put it to. So there's like a struggle weirdly over trick or treating. And it has to do with under parenting and over parenting

and that conversation about the whole thing. I have seen parents ruin kids' experiences, whether it's like a Easter egg hunt or trick or treating, I've seen this in action. Because they're too involved? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what it comes down to is just how involved are you in your kids' trick-or-treating for a very brief period. There was very little involvement in kids' trick-or-treating.

Yeah. And a lot of people say that's actually really good for kids in this other way that we've kind of started to evolve toward is not. Yeah, I don't remember my parents taking me around trick-or-treating. I'm sure that happened maybe when I was really little and we certainly would have had to go somewhere else because you know, I've lived on the dirt road. Yeah, the dirt road with no neighbors or very few of them. But I just, all of my memories stem from being like probably 10 to 15 and being completely on my own with my friends. 10 to 15?

10 years old. But to 15. That's pretty late. What, to trick or treat? Oh yeah. Oh, now we trick or treat it up until probably the like the 9th or 10th grade. Well, we'll get to it, but in some places you get to get arrested for that. When did you stop?

You'd still trick or treat if they would let you. I think I stopped around 13. Maybe 15 was too late, maybe 13 or 14. You're fine, no, 15's great. It goes, God. No, but you're probably right now that'll look back. Maybe I went to Halloween parties, but maybe not. There's kind of an unofficial slash official,

again, in some places. Cut off after 12. Really? Yeah, slash official, again, in some places. Cut off after 12, really done. Yeah, because 13, you're a teenager now and that's not kid stuff. As we'll see, it's allegedly trick or treating as a transition from kidhood to adulthood. And by the time you're 13, you've made that transition.

That's in your past. It's sad, but it's, I don't know why I'm talking like Christopher Walken all of a sudden, but I am. Yeah, maybe I wasn't going that late, but I definitely remember going by myself at a certain point, but now with my neighborhood, it's just, I see mostly parents not involved at all.

They're there kind of like, if your child is two or three, helping them walk to the door and stuff. But otherwise we're just drinking and the kids are doing their thing. So let's talk about this then. Let's skip toward the end and we'll jump back. There is this debate over whether it's better to just kind of cross your fingers and hope for the best and let your kids go out and trick or treat on their own, whether that's good or whether we need to, the world's just too unsafe for that and we need to much more manage kids' trick or treating than just letting them go out on their

own. Well, it depends on where you are. That's the big divide. Yeah. And one of my personal heroes, the world's worst mom, Lenore Skennazazi, who came up with the free range kids blog. Right. And the whole movement, frankly. She makes this really great point that when we let kids trick or treat, we let them confront danger, like on their own. And it's real, it's just a thin, the narrowest margin of danger.

I mean, people always talk about like the, all of the worst things that could happen on Halloween when the kids out of trigger train, getting hit by a car, getting kidnapped by a stranger, getting like, like- And Apple with the razor blade. Yes, just stuff that happens, and it can happen, it's true, but it happens so infrequently that the chances are,

it's not going to happen and you're actually better off just letting the kid roll the dice. Because this Lenore scanazi puts it, when you go trigger treating, you're transitioning from being a kid to a grown-up and you're doing this quite literally, you go with your parents first and they kind of teach you the rules of the road,

like just take one piece of candy, or that house over there has their lights off. So leave them alone, they don't wanna have anything to do with this. And then after that, you let them go on their own, right? And they kind of take the ball and roll with it. And she says that when they're out trick-or-treating, kids dress like grown-ups, they take to the streets.

At night. They encounter the scariest possible locals, which is in goblins. And then yes, they're doing it as scary as possible time, night. And the whole thing is dress rehearsal for adulthood. And that's the benefit of trick-or-treating. I don't quite get that. That is the same as adulthood, like you and I,

all the time walking around night fighting goblins in the winter. Sure, right. Exactly. Where would we have been without trick or treating to prepare us for fighting goblins? All right. But just confronting fears on their own without their parents managing their world for them. Right. So that they can handle themselves, have the confidence to know they can handle themselves. And I guess feel good about having confronted their fears and gotten candy in return. Let's not forget about that. Now, on the other hand, it's just take the candy.

It's fine. Right. Mommy and Daddy made it perfect for you. All you have to do is go get the candy. You're in a perfect bubble. And everything's fine. Yeah. So I kind of tend to fall on Lennore's

canazzy side on that. Well, should we talk a little bit about the, you know, whether or not there have been all these real horror stories over the years and whether or not any of those are true? Yeah. As far as the razor blade and the apple and stuff like that, hypodermic needles and candy, this stuff doesn't happen. No, and the thing that point out, and I know we've talked about it before, is that it was an urban legend that came true.

Right. There was one case, and this is actually kind of funny if you ask me. In 1959, there was a dentist in California named William Shine, who name William Shine who took aloe, laxative pills, and disguised them as candy and give out 450 of them. I jerked to kids and they were all pooping I guess. So I think a few of them did poop. Nobody got injured though. Right. Now you're not gonna get injured from a laxative. You could poop over poop over poop. Over poop over poop. Yeah, but this is when I think This real story got out and then all of a sudden it gets morphed into Needles and razor blades or poison or Candy laced with heroin and stuff like that. Well, that did happen. Well, yeah, but that's the thing like the examples that are listed are

Reverse engineered almost right right so there was a little boy in Texas who died from eating a cyanide-laced pixie stick in Texas. And I can't remember what year it was. 74. And it turned out that it was his dad. That his dad was the scum of the earth who had taken out insurance policies on his own children and then gave them spiked Halloween candy to make it look like some mad poisoner that killed his kid so he could collect insurance. And one of his kids did die. But it wasn't just some random Halloween poisoner. That guy didn't really exist at the time.

Yeah, 1970 in Detroit was the heroin incident. This kid overdosed. These kids ate their uncle's stash is what really happened. And then the uncle's like, oh crap. Let me sprinkle the heroin on the candy and cook up the story. And maybe cook up some heroin since I'm cooking. And to try and get out of this. So again, it really happened, but not in the way that you think. No.

The thing that got everybody, so that William Shine guy, who I just think is a skill for that, because he scared the pants off of America's parents. Yeah. He basically said, hey, hey, you know how you're letting your kids run free? Something really bad could happen to him,

and I just showed you how. Yeah. And from the next year on, the parents were anxiously involved in Halloween like they never had been before. Because of what I'm showing. But the thing that really killed Halloween or at least cemented, I think, the anxieties

and the heads of parents in America is that Tylenol poisoner. Oh, sure. Canceled Halloween 1982. Did it really? Almost drove Ben Cooper costumes out of business. Candy sales went down 50%. I trick-a-treated in 1982.

Well, your parents didn't love you. I think I did too. I don't remember not. I would remember not trick-a-treating one year. Yeah, because that would have been 11. That's prime time. Right. Apparently those are the retirement years. But all of this stuff added a veneer of fear and anxiety on trick-or-treating for parents,

not for kids necessarily, but for parents. Yes. And it drew them into what was possibly just a kid-run activity because of fear, probably irrational fear. Yeah. And now you have, to this day, the FDA sending out guidelines around Halloween saying, don't let your kids eat any candy until they bring it home.

Which is just torture. And you have to inspect it. And if you see any pinholes or tears or anything that looks weird, just throw it away. Some hospitals say, bring your kids candy and we'll x-ray it to see if there's any razor blades or needles in it or something like that.

This is the kind of terror that ironically is overlaid on Halloween. It's like fun terror has actual real terror on top of it, which makes it less fun. We don't inspect candy. Oh, you don't eat roll of dice, huh? Yeah. That's great.

I don't know anyone who does. Really? Oh, man, I was raised like that. You inspected candy. Oh, yeah, my parents were serious about it. We never did. I don't know. I just, I don't know.

That's great. Maybe it's that thing of like, if you're the, because it doesn't happen. Right. No, I'm heartened to hear that. Yeah. Because when we did our free range kids episode I remember thinking like what's what's going on now like? Like kids are treated like this. They're not By Halloween candy

It's just not happening right, you know, yeah plus in our neighborhood with the sanctioned closure All the candy is people aren't buying their own candy. It's like the neighborhood buys all the candy and they congregate it in these couple of blocks. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Okay, I mean, there could be a madman living among us. It happens. But that's like being scared to walk out your front door

for fear of being murdered. Right, right chuck. You know? You just can't live that way. I can't live that way. You know, Yumi told me a story about a village, like villages in Japan have like a festival or two every year. Like the whole community comes out.

It's like a big deal. And there was one village, little tiny town where this one woman just, I guess went mad and poisoned the curry that she brought to the village thing and that killed a bunch of townspeople. It happens. It does happen, but you're right, you can't not eat the curry just because of the small, small chance

that some mad person has poisoned it. Yeah, the way I look at it is if that's what happens, then that's, you know, your numbers up. Your numbers up and your story in the newspaper to scare other people. You know, your numbers up. Your numbers up and your story in the newspaper to scare other people. Sure. You get to be immortalized on stuff you should know. It's trick or treat going away, Josh.

I don't know, Chuck. I say no. Okay, that's good. I'm glad to hear that. Again, I'm living hashtag condolife. I'm out of the action. Yeah, I mean, there's the last bit of this article you sent talked about it going away

Potentially, but I just I don't think that's ever ever gonna happen. So what are your arguments for it going away that it might My arguments are your you know, this is my observation your observations One of the big ones is that fear among parents that helicopter parenting has not been good for trick-or-treating Okay, okay, but but think about that's a real struggle going on right now over parenting versus that helicopter parenting has not been good for trick-or-treating. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But think about, that's a real struggle going on right now. Over parenting versus under parenting. Which one's going to win out?

Right. Okay. Another one is there's a perception that trick-or-treating is dying out, which is kind of funny. Is there? Yes, because people are moving back into towns and gentrifying those towns like we talked about in the historic district episode Mm-hmm and as they're doing that Trigger treating was never huge in the city and so people who were raised in the suburbs and you were used to it are moving into the city

And there's no trick or treating going anymore So I guess trick or treating is dying because that's what I'm seeing. I differ. I'd beg the differ with that too Okay, but I mean you don't live in the city city So I guess trick-or-treating's dying because that's what I'm seeing. I differ, I beg the differ with that too. Okay. But I mean, you don't live in the city city. You live in a neighborhood. Yeah, but that's all Atlanta is. There's a bunch of neighborhoods.

Okay, you mean I don't live downtown? Maybe these people live in Des Moines. I don't know. That one lives in downtown Atlanta. No, it's true. Although it has gotten cooler than it was like a decade ago. Sure. But I beg the differ that trick or treating

doesn't go on in the cities. I think, I think there are apartment buildings in New York where people trick or treat. Like just because it's not the picket fence, suburban neighborhood. Sure. I think trick or treating goes on everywhere. But this author is at my house.

Julie Beck, who wrote in the Atlantic, she put it really well that basically the suburbs and trick or treating just go hand in hand. Sure that basically the suburbs and trick-or-treating just go hand in hand. Sure. Like the suburbs are set up for trick-or-treat. Oh, yeah. You got houses that are close together?

Super safe. Yep, where people who live there are just well enough off to buy enough candy for the whole neighborhood. Yeah. They all have kids. They know each other enough that you're not embarrassed for your kid

to go up and trick-or-treat there, and you know that this candy is not going to be poisoned. In the city, you're much more isolated from one another, even though you're living on top of one another. Yeah, and I think maybe if we're talking about areas where there are poor kids and where poverty is run rampant. Then maybe there's less traditional trick or treating, but there are programs and parties and things they try to do for those kids too. Okay, so those very things may end up being what kills trick or treating.

I should say the purest version of trick or treating. You can also just make the case, well, that's what it's evolving into and just go with it. I think it will probably be both, but you're talking about the big Halloween parties, community parties, trunk or treating. trunk or treating and treating.

Or what was it called, Halloween? tailgating. Halloween tailgating. trunk or treating. This is the idea that you, and we had this at our school, we had the Halloween festival, but that did not replace trick or treating.

Okay, this replaces trick or treating for a lot of children. Yeah, so you go out and you get in a big church parking lot, essentially. Yep. And you have Bob and Frapils and the dunk tank. No, this is different. And, huh? This is a little different than that. Well, I mean, I've seen these in person.

And, okay, but that's a Halloween festival you're talking about. No, no, no, I'm talking about instead of trick or treating. Okay. It's a big party. Okay. Where they have candy and they have activities and games and stuff. So are you going from car to car getting candy like the cars or houses? No, not necessarily, but they're giving out candy. I mean, I can't. You're not talking about a truck or treat. It feels very nitpicky to me. No, but it's not and here's why. I'm not talking about a Halloween festival, though. Okay, but I feel like you're not talking about a trunk or treat. It feels very nitpicky to me. No, but it's not, and here's why. I'm not talking about a Halloween festival, though.

Okay, that's fine, that's fine. I'm not talking about a trunk or treat. You mean you walk five feet to a car and they give you candy and then five feet to another car? Maybe even less than five feet. And they say, don't play any games, don't bob for apples or don't do anything else. All you're doing is walking the cars. I'm not saying that they don't have bobbing for apples, but the purpose of trunker treating

is to basically set up a safe ring of cars where the kids are literally pinned in. The kids who used to be the ones who were running the show are now pinned in by the anxious adults cars, handing out candy rather than going to houses, walking around a church parking lot for trunker treating instead of tricker treating. Yes, I get that. These are not the kids who could pull off.

But that's not gonna replace tricker treating. What the kids and the goonies were able to pull off because they had freedom and spark that kids who trunker treat are being denied. Right. Let me go back to my friend, Lennore Skynancy. She says that trunker treating is just another adult-led activity.

One that reinforces the community-killing idea that kids aren't ever safe outside the home school or supervised program. And that is most definitely the message that kids get when they're trunker treating. Yeah, I think that is not going to kill tricker treating or take over tricker treating. We'll see Chuck, I hope you're right.

Because one thing I have not seen since I've lived in Atlanta is any big trunker treating activities. Well, that's because you live in Atlanta and all you have to do is go out to the suburbs and they're everywhere. Yeah, but the suburbs are made for trick-or-treating. They're out in the neighborhoods.

I gotta end on a quote. I ran across a website, I guess a church website, that's talking about trunk or treating. It's awesome, this quote. It says that the scariest part about the night, this is a trunk or treating night, isn't the costumes. It's the possibility that you could miss out on the chance

to use trunk or treat, to build relationships and reach these kids with the gospel. Well, yeah, that is the opposite of what Halloween is all about. That's right. You got anything else? It's about arson right? 110 cases of it. Sorry. I'm one of those curmudgians that turns out One more thing. Yes. If you like Halloween go go on to our old stuff you should know website and search Halloween and Creepy.

And you're going to find some amazing slideshow as we put together over the years. That's right. Remember those? One of my favorite is Qt and Cruddy Halloween costumes. Vintage Halloween costumes that were really creepy. Best Jackalanners, all sorts of great stuff. Remember those days where we count page views and get excited about that? Yeah.

This one felt like a bit of a tie raid. Yeah. Was it? I don't think so. Okay, good. Well, if you want to know more about Halloween, get out there and trick or treat. And since I said that, it's time for listener mate.

This is follow up on parapherias that we wanted to read for the last few weeks. Just now getting to it. Hey guys, long time listener, first time writer. I've had this episode pop up a few times. It's just been on my mind. I'm in RN with MSN and background and have background in neurophysiology who enjoys studying abnormal psych.

I understand you were doing a show on psychological term, on a psychological term, but you may have ended up painting wrong ideas on two certain practices, specifically SNM and cross-dressing. When I have come to know, it's extremely rare that people practice these primarily for sexual gratification. Of course, these practices are adult in nature, but most regard it as an emotional practice or exploration of self. For example, Shibari or rope bondage takes hundreds of hours of practice to perform, and those that partake describe a meditation-like state as a result, though most would say

it's SNM. Most cross-dressers describe the long-presses of becoming female as cathartic and self-affirming, although be it temporary. Simplifying cross-dressers to those who walk around in high heels to reach completion, well imagine saying that about a trans woman. Of course, if you were doing these practices for sexual gratification, all the power to you. I suggest you look into kink culture as an episode. It's where a wide range of people congregate and share their interest in a community that is founded off-respect and consent. There are meetups and presentations on practices so that others can learn proper technique,

the most they practice would like to keep their privacy. And that is from anonymous. Thanks a lot anonymous. That was a good correction email. That's right. Yep. If you want to get in touch with us like anonymous did to set us straight we love that kind of thing. You can join us at stuffyshino.com and check out our social links there and you can send us an email to StuffPodcast at iHeartRadio.com Stuffyshino is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the I Heart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 13 Days of Halloween Penance Season 4 of the award-winning horror fiction podcast presented in immersive 3D audio.

If I am under arrest, you have to tell me what I'm charged with. Starring Natalie Morales of Parks and Recreation and Dead To Me. Please, you've been some kind of mistake. I'm not supposed to be here. How do you know? I'm innocent. Are any of us truly innocent? Premiering October 19th, ending Halloween. Listen to 13 days of Halloween on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcasts over wherever you get your podcasts. If you really want to know what's going on in this country heading into the 2024 election,

you have to get away from the extremes and listen to the middle. Hi, Jan here in Kansas City, Missouri. On the podcast The Middle with Jeremy Hobson, I'll take calls live every week, elevating the voices of Americans who are so important when it comes to who's in power and what gets done. My name is Vancade, I'm calling you for my plan of Georgia. Listen to the middle with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up? This is Big Long. Check out my podcast. It's up to each and every Monday. It's up to our podcast, brings a conversation for supporters and business leaders of the coach from the podcast business music and entertainment deals We have an in-depth dialogue with a level of understanding for everyone

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