Stuff You Should Know - Selects: Who is The Man of the Hole?

Episode Date: March 30, 2024

In 2018, there's a man from a lost tribe still living deep in the jungles of Brazil who has been all alone since the mid 1990s. He's referred to as the Man of the Hole, and has had no face-to-face with modern humans. Who is he? We'll answer that question as best we can in this classic episode.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Chuck here with the Saturday Select, bringing you one all the way back from August 2018, a nice summer episode. Who is the man of the whole? This is very interesting. The man of the whole was somebody who lived by himself as an uncontacted human. Well, pretty much uncontacted. A very interesting story. Sometimes I wish I was the man of the whole,

but check it out right now. Who is the man of the whole? ["The Man of the Whole"] ["The Man of the Whole"] Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. ["The Man of the Whole"] Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant.

There's Jerry Jerome. J- Rowland. Boy, I am not in a good way today, Chuck. You off your game? As if you can't tell. I think you're fine. Well, thanks, man. I feel a lot better. Sure. thanks, man. I feel a lot better.

Sure. Uh, yeah, no, I'm okay. I can tell you, I'm surrounded by friends, family. I know your dad's in the corner. It's weird. I have— Hi, Dad. I have TV. Oh, man, I Instagrammed a photo of my mom and dad. Oh, yeah? From the 70s, yeah.

And I captioned it, they're like looking at each other kind of lovingly. And I captioned it the moment before I was conceived. You know what? Jerry showed me that today. Oh, yeah? She did. I look a lot like my parents mixed together, huh?

Well, the first thing I noticed was like, wow, that's what Josh would have looked like as a grown man in the 1970s. Because that profile of your dad, I was, I don't know, I'd never seen your dad young. So I was like, man, that's really, that's you. Yeah. But yeah, I totally saw it. I saw both. Yeah. Yeah, because you look at my dad, you're like, oh, that's Josh. But then you look at my mom, you're like, oh, that's Josh, but then you look at my mom, you're like, oh, there's Josh too. Very bizarre.

Yeah, I guess I definitely favor my father. Is that right? Yeah, so a lot of people just favor one or the other, but I'm 50-50. Yep, that's what I call you, old 50-50. Yeah. I think that's a new one. There's a t-shirt.

Yeah. 50-50 Clark. So, oh, I know the point I was making. There's this House of Works article that you sent called The Man in the Hole. And it talks about this guy who is the last of his kind. As this article put it, like the loneliest person on earth. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I'm sure this is a lot like being in solitary confinement or something like that. But no, this is way beyond that. In this How Stuff Works article by Jess Lynn Shields, like really drove it home.

She wrote like, what if you were the last person who could speak your language, the last person who remembered what Halloween was or a Coca-Cola or that a dog says woof. Like imagine that. And I'm like, yeah, that's way different from being in solitary. Solitary confinement would be bad enough. You know, you're physically restrained. But at least you know out there

that there are other people who know the same things you know, that speak the same language you speak, that your family's still out there, that kind of thing. This is utterly different. And this man, the last tribesman he's called, or the man in the hole, is possibly not just the last of his kind. He might be the only person on the entire planet in the situation that he's in.

Maybe. Isn't that bizarre to think? Yeah. I mean, we did another show on Are There Undiscovered People quite a few years back. And I don't know how he didn't get to this guy, but I saw this article and it was striking, especially if you've seen the couple of videos. And I think there are only two pieces of video of this dude. One I saw where they were sort of shooting, you know, they were zoomed in on a hut and that's, you know, where he lives.

There's a series of thatched huts in the Tanaru Indigenous Reserve in the Rondonia state of Brazil. About 20,000 acres, big area of the forest and jungle. So he lives in these thatched huts that are scattered about in the middle of nowhere. And they were able to get him on film, kind of zoomed in between the cracks. And you see the guy kind of looking a little bit, but you can't make out much. So I saw that video. And then I saw another one where it was a pretty good shot of him from a distance making good work trying to chop down a tree. That was the most recent video.

Right. Which, well, let's just go ahead and get into this. He was found or discovered in, I think, 1996 when some loggers from the state of Rondonia — Which, from the impression I have, this is a very rough-and-tumble state populated by loggers and cattle ranchers, and there are very few laws, from what I understand, and things are settled by the gun, is the impression that I have of Rondonia. It's right smack dab in the middle of South America, and it's extraordinarily densely jungled in the Amazon.

Yeah, I mean, that one New York Times article, like the guy that they were talking to said, from a helicopter, you look down there, and you think there's just no one down there. It's just all jungle. He said, but when you get down there, he said, there's a lot of people and drug runners and bad men everywhere. So, this guy is definitely an anomaly because he is not hanging out with anybody. No. And the reason why they think he's alone, Chuck, is because back in 1995, 1996, when the rumors of like a wild man in the jungle started to circulate, they think that he had just recently survived a slaughter that had killed off the rest of his tribe.

Which was only like supposedly five or six people at that point because they think the rest had been slaughtered. And that's a common thing we're going to come up on in a couple of these is these ranchers and loggers, they're like, we want to go clear this land and there's a tribe, a native tribe, they're an indigenous tribe, so let's just slaughter them. Get them out of the way. It's really, really an awful, awful thing. And it's been a very common thing apparently since the 70s and 80s when ranchers and loggers

moved into Rondonia, just snatching up land. And this is, again, this is the Amazon. basically pristine rainforest, rain forest, that people who have never been contacted by anyone from the outside world live still to this day. And this guy is one of them. So at first they thought maybe he was just a member of a tribe that we already know about. And then over time, as they started to study this guy,

it became quite clear that no, he's a member of a tribe that we didn't know about before, and we're pretty sure he's the last of his kind. Yeah, so there's this organization called FUNAI, F-U-N-A-I, the National Indian Foundation of Brazil. And they have been tasked with, for the past 20 years, monitoring this dude and before his companions were killed, monitoring his companions. And you sent a nice follow-up on FUNAI.

They have a few departments, and one is called the General Coordination Unit of Uncontacted Indians, the CGII. And that was established in 1987 and they're the only department of government in the world which protects indigenous peoples who don't have contact with the outside world or nearby tribes. Yeah, because before in the like 19th century and even through a lot of the 20th century, there was, it was just basically Christian missionaries

who were making their way into the Amazon to contact tribes and bring them Jesus basically, and also healthcare and food and all that stuff, tools, the implements of modern culture, but also to proselytize too. And there was a lot of, have tools, the implements of modern culture, but also to proselytize too. And there was a lot of, it just wasn't very well thought out. And as a result, even from these, the best of intentions that a lot of these missionaries

had, a lot of tribes died. So in 1910, Brazil came up with their, I think it was like the Indian Protection Services was the name of the department that they first came up with their, I think it was like the Indian Protection Services was the name of the department that they first came up with. And the Indian Protection Service, they took over from the missionaries and it was a step up in that sense because it was more coordinated, there was thought to it, there was some sort of study. The point was to take uncontacted Amazonian tribes and bring them into the modern world so that they could assimilate with the modern world. The point was to basically reduce cultural diversity in Brazil.

And that kept going until the 60s when there was a huge expose about the Indian Protection Service that they had just fallen down so terribly in their mission that there was basically mass extermination, slavery, rape, everything, every horrible thing that you can think of that could befall a human being happened to these tribes under the watch of the Indian Services Protection over 60 years? Yeah. So, the department in 1987, the CGII, was founded by a man named Sidney Pasuelo, I guess that's how you pronounce that. And this was a big sea change in policy, which was, like you were saying, the previous strategy, establish contact

to try and get them integrated at some point to this new policy, which was don't even contact these people unless they're under serious threat. Because history has shown all manner of bad things can happen when you contact these people, one of which is certainly introducing them to new diseases and things that will kill them that they've never seen or experienced. And this is, you know, there's a big debate still on like what the best policies are here? Yeah, so these two American anthropologists, white American anthropologists, men who I guess wrote an open letter in either science or nature, I think nature, basically saying Brazil and Peru should reverse this long-standing policy of not contacting Indians in the Amazon and

should actually plan peaceful, well-organized contact so that they can be better protected. It's these anthropologists' stance that if you don't protect them, they're going to die one way or another. That there's no way that they're going to remain isolated on the longterm. Maybe you've got another generation possibly of some of these tribes that could live like this, but beyond that, it's just not gonna happen. There's too many powerful interests

banging on the doors of their preserved areas who are more than willing to hire people who will accept money to go kill these people just to get this land. And by just leaving them alone, you're leaving them very vulnerable. Whereas if you plan out contact, then conceivably you can show them

that there are things like medical treatment, there is better ways that you can protect them, you can kind of give them contact. And that even more so, interviews with groups that have initiated contact or have had contact made with them, said we would have made contact with you guys earlier, but we thought we were gonna be enslaved

or murdered or something. We had no idea that you wanted to actually help us. Had we known that, we would have contacted you guys decades ago. So those two things put together, these American anthropologists have said, we endorse this. And FUNAI and a lot of other groups, including the UN and a human rights group in the UK called Survivors International have said, no.

That is totally disrespectful. That flies completely in the face of agreed upon procedure and protocol. Just be quiet. You're being neocolonialists. Yeah. I think it's interesting though because what they're trying to do is, like you said, have very highly controlled contact and the assumption that they don't want to be contacted, at least through their eyes, appears to be false because, like you mentioned, they're afraid of being

kidnapped or something or overtaken and had they known like, oh, you just want to give us some nice tools and maybe inoculate us and we'd actually be down with that as long as you leave afterward. Right. And these two anthropologists said, like, you've got to do this smartly. Like, you basically have to go in with cultural translators, usually tribes who have made contact with outsiders before, already established contact that live in the same area, who might be able to translate between the outsiders and the actual uncontacted tribes. And you need healthcare providers who are going to stay there for at least a year. You need at least a year of sustained care

or else, yes, they're going to die from these diseases you're going to bring in inevitably. Yeah, I mean, they're good. They give good examples too in that article about how this is backfired with missionaries like the Yora people. They were there for six months and the missionary said, well, let's go on vacation. And then the Yora died a few weeks later. And then in 1975, missionaries provided care to a community, an Ake community.

They took a vacation and then they died as well. So they're saying like, you got to have a plan to go in and stay there. You can't just go in, bring them some food and machetes, inoculate them. And then be like, spring break. And then get out of there. But I get the idea that this is still a pretty hot topic of debate. Oh, yeah. No, those anthropologists, they set off a huge debate.

And I think it was sparked by the video that was released by Survivor International of the man in the hole chopping down a tree. And the video was taken in 2011, but they only just released it in July of 2018. And this is, yeah, this is very much still going on, this big debate. And it's a huge, it's a huge issue. And you can kind of see both sides.

Like I had just read about FUNAI's counter to it, that like, look, dudes, this is our thing. We got this, you just mind your own business. We have our own policy, stay out, right? Stay out of this. But then if you read the anthropologist letters, you're like, actually, they have a couple of good points here.

So it's not a clear cut picture one way or the other. It's definitely, there's a lot of nuance to it on both sides. All right, let's take a respite. Let's take a furlough or vacation. Yeah, and we'll come back and talk a little bit more about the man in the hole. Bring a little optimism into your life with The Bright Side, a new kind of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine, hosted by me, Danielle Robay. And me, Simone Boyce.

Every weekday, we're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. I am so excited about this podcast, The Bright Side. You guys are giving people a chance to shine a light on their lives, shine a light on a little advice that they want to share. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side. The big take from Bloomberg News brings you what's shaping the world's economies with the smartest and best informed business reporters around the world. Western nations like the U.S. in Europe. Mexico will likely have its first female world. Western nations like the U.S. and Europe.

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as fast as they could. I'm David Gura. I'm Sarah Holder. I'm Saleh Amosin. We cover the stories behind what's moving money and markets. Basically everyone was expecting, if not a calamity, certainly a recession. But the problem is that that paperwork, as our reporting showed, is fake. Someone who's covering the market, I'm often very worried about an imminent collapse. The a spy story of the world's first and greatest travel writer Eugene Fodor as he jet sets around the globe.

Tongue Unbroken Season 2. This podcast explores complex concepts of identity, resilience, erasure, and genocide. Table for Two Season 2. Think of the show as a deconstructed Oscar party in podcast form. Each episode takes place over the romance of a meal and feels like you're seated next to a different guest at that dinner. Hear these podcasts and more on your free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. So the reason they call him the man of the hole or the man in the hole is

the odd thing of inside these thatched huts of which he has several around this area. Inside the huts are these, and all over the place there are these holes with spikes for trapping animals, but he has these six foot deep holes inside of his own huts. And apparently no other tribes around him have done this, and it's a very unusual thing. The belief is that he is, it's for his own protection, I guess, if he's being fired upon or something by loggers, he can jump down on one of these holes. Yeah, that's the impression I have too, which is extraordinarily sad. It is.

So the reason why they think that he has these holes is because he's had terrible run-ins. I guess this seems to be evidence that he is the survivor of a slaughter or a massacre, because this is not a normal technique that they've seen with other tribes. And they found it at every single one of the huts that they've come upon of his. Yeah, they do know though from tailing him or tailing him, monitoring him for the past couple of decades though that he hunts with a bow and arrow. He farms probably at night and stays out of the, you know, as much as he can stays inside during the day out of fear, which is also awful. But he farms like papaya and corn and other fruits and vegetables.

He has all these traps set everywhere, like I mentioned. They have found hand-carved arrowheads, torches made from branches and resin. And at one point they actually tried to make contact. They had several points. Well, at one point when they tried to make contact. They had several points. Well, at one point when they tried to make contact, though, he fired upon them with his bow and arrow and actually hit someone in the chest. One of the Funai agents.

Yeah, and they were like, all right, we're out of here. Yeah, at that point, they stopped trying to initiate contact with this guy. And again, this is like peaceful contact they're trying to initiate, not like, hey, man, get off of this land. They're like saying, do you need anything? Do you want some food? What do you want? And the first few attempts to contact him resulted

in him just basically slipping into the shadows in the jungle and just disappearing. Then it progressed into standoffs. Then it progressed into a shooting. Then it progressed into a shooting. And so they stepped back, Survivor International and FUNAI and some other groups, stepped back and said, this guy is escalating in hostilities.

He's showing us he doesn't want anything to do with us. Like it would be something if like he'd shot the first time and then slipped away the second time and And the hostilities were decreasing but instead it's going the opposite way the hostilities were increasing So he's getting that he has the opportunity to contact these people who are coming with their hands up and like not trying to kill Him and he's still saying back off So finally the government said we're're just going to back off. And they backed off.

They, they, FUNAI established this policy of not contacting this guy, not even attempting to contact this guy, but instead monitoring him, making sure that his preserve is protected and then leaving him things like the axe that he was seen using in that 2011 video or seeds for some of the plants that he grows. Yeah, which a lot of times he doesn't even accept or take these gifts. I imagine he's not really trusting. And like you said, as far as protecting the area in 2007, Funai and the government eventually increased the area to 31 square miles around where he was is off limits to

any trespassing or development. Later expanded to 3,000 hectares. So, I think they added another 3,000 hectares. Oh, okay, to the already square mileage. And this has really ticked off the ranchers and the loggers because they're like, our business is being held back by this one guy. And they want to kill him. To kill him. like our business is being held back by this one guy. Yeah. And they want to kill him.

To kill him. As a matter of fact, when the government announced that it was not only keeping up the practice of preserving this guy's land, 31 square miles, but adding an extra 3000 hectares, which brought the total to 42 and a half square miles or 110 square kilometers that this man has to himself. The five ranches that surround this preserve

hired somebody to go try to kill him. Funei went and checked on him after a couple of weeks after that announcement was made public. And they found that their outpost was ransacked and that they had found shotgun shells, spent shotgun shells in the forest floor. So there was clearly an attempt to made on the guy's life. And for a couple of years, they had no idea if he'd survived

until that video was made in 2011 that showed this guy who is now 50. They'd been tracking him since he was in his 30s. Yeah, he's in his 50s now. Chopping down a tree, yeah. Chopping down a tree like it's nothing. So they knew that he was alive and in good health as of 2011. And they're assuming that he's still alive.

Man, how good would a movie be about this guy? I know. Just have a lot of it play out in silence, you know? Yeah, that would be amazing. That would be cool. I mean, it's crazy to see a video of this guy from seven years ago, like in the world we live in, to think about there's still places on Earth where this guy, it's almost like the Japanese straggler who had no idea that the war had been over for whatever, 30 years, living in the jungle. It's just amazing to think about the fact that this is the lone

guy out there by himself and what his life must be like. But not only that, it's like, when we did the paramedics episode, I think I said something like there's no greater symbol of humanity than paramedics, you know? I think this is another really great symbol of humanity. Paramedics and this guy. Well, no, the FUNAI, the Brazilian government's response to this, that this man has been part of a tribe,

he's the last of his tribe, and the Brazilian government has said, this man deserves to live his life out in peace in the way that he wants to, in his traditional way to be left alone. And we're gonna designate 110 square kilometers that belong to no one but this man. Despite the fact that all around him is the outside world trying to press in, we're going to stand in the way of that so that this guy can live out his natural life.

That just gets me, you know, right in the breadbasket. Yeah, I think the Disney version of this movie is they would find a lone tribe's woman somewhere, drop her off, and have them meet cute by the papaya tree. Yeah, and the ranchers want to tickle him. But if it were live action, these days it would be, they would hire either John Wayne or Fisher Stevens to play the last track. Fisher Stevens. Yeah, remember he played the Indian programmer in Short Circuit?

Really? Wow, that's right. Yeah. Oh, jeez. Yeah. That was as recently as the 80s. Right. It's not like Mickey Rooney playing an Asian man in the 1960s.

Yeah. Not like that was any better. Boy, Hollywood. You've been getting it wrong for so long. Matthew Feeney They have. At least Mongol got it right though, right? Matthew Feeney Maybe. Matthew Feeney Yeah, we haven't seen it yet.

Matthew Feeney I'm not even sure. Matthew Feeney Should we take another break? Matthew Feeney Yeah, we should. Matthew Feeney All right. We'll take another break and talk a little bit more about some of these isolated tribes right after this. Bring a little optimism into your life with The Bright Side, a new kind of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine, hosted by me, Danielle Robay.

And me, Simone Boyce. Every weekday, we're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. I am so excited about this podcast, The Bright Side. You guys are giving people a chance to shine a light on their lives, shine a light on a little advice that they want to share. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side. The big take from Bloomberg News brings you what's shaping the world's economies with the smartest and best informed business reporters around the world. Western nations like the US and Europe. Mexico will likely have its first female president. And then you have China. And help you understand what's happening, what it means, and why it matters. He'll get his yo-yos to Europe in time.

But the longer this drags on, the more worried he's getting. They knew that they needed to do this as fast as they possibly could to get a drug on the market as fast as they could. I'm David Gorett. I'm Sarah Holder. I'm Saleh Emosin. We cover the stories behind what's moving money and markets. Basically everyone was expecting, if not a calamity, certainly a recession.

But the problem is that that paperwork, as our reporting showed, is fake. Someone who's covering the market, I'm often very worried about an imminent collapse. Listen to The Big Take and Big Take DC on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. iHeart Podcast update, this week on your free iHeartRadio app. Fodor's Guide to Espionage, a 60s era spy story of the world's first and greatest travel writer Eugene Fodor as he jet sets around the globe.

Tongue Unbroken Season 2, this podcast explores complex concepts of identity, resilience, erasure, and genocide. Table for Two Season 2, think of the show, and genocide. Table for two, season two. Think of the show as a deconstructed Oscar party in podcast form. Each episode takes place over the romance of a meal and feels like you're seated next to a different guest at that dinner. Hear these podcasts and more on your free iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Chuck. So the last tribesman, the man in the hole, he's being left alone.

And that's policy in Brazil and Peru from what I understand now. There are some tribes that have actually accepted contact and have made peaceful contact and have become, I guess, a little more integrated. I think there's three degrees that Funai separates tribes into, indigenous tribes into. There's totally uncontacted, which is like they are living off on their own.

The outside world has nothing to do with them. There's partially contacted or partially assimilated. So they get emails. Right. Like they're living in their hut in the jungle, but they still have an iPhone. Right? And then there's fully assimilated, where they like live in a city now or something like that or they have like a job in the city or something like that.

So it's not just in the Amazon, it's not just in Brazil where there are uncontacted tribes, although that is definitely the place where you're going to find the most. I think I saw somewhere between 50, 80, and 120 uncontacted groups of indigenous people are presumed to be living in the Amazon still today. Yeah, I mean just those, that random swath of numbers shows you that they're still so much they don't know. For sure. But there are other parts of the world where there are uncontacted tribes. And you found an article that ran down a few of them. One that surprised me was just off the coast of India, on Sentinel Island in India.

North Sentinel Island. Yeah, a good old cracked article, which may have been done under the watch of our now colleague Mr. Jack O'Brien. Nice. Shout out to Jack and his Daily Zeitgeist podcast. Yeah, which I was on. Have you been on yet? I haven't been on.

You've got to be on. It's great, great fun. As a matter of fact, I'm going to lap you. I'm going to go on again. Yeah, well, please do. All right. Yeah, but the Sentinelese on North Sentinel Island, India, and they don't even know if that's their real name.

They just call them that because I guess we have called it North Sentinel Island. Not you and me, but other people who named it. I think the British. But apparently, yeah, probably. We don't know a lot about them, but in 2006, a couple of fishermen drifted there in their boat near the island and were killed and buried in shallow graves and helicopters came and they were like, we got to find this burial site and get these guys back at least.

And they started firing arrows at the helicopter and it was just out of there. And the local cops were like, no, we're just going to leave those guys there. We're not going near it. Matthew Feeney-Sandoval They have, actually. This has been going on for a very long time. Apparently Marco Polo remarked on them, wrote about them. He was traveling, I think, the 12th or 13th century. So they've been fierce for years now and apparently survived the 2004 tsunami.

Yeah. The Indonesia tsunami. That's crazy because this is an island that the tsunami just swamped and they managed to hang on just fine. I think ancient people have survived more than one tsunami, you know. I guess you're right. Back through the years. That was a pretty bad one though.

Yeah, pretty amazing. This other one, the Koro Wye tribe of Papua Indonesia, they were contacted in the 70s by of course missionaries and archaeologists and they were using stone tools and living in tree huts and stuff like that. And their big belief as a tribe was that the world would be destroyed by an earthquake if they assimilated and changed their customs. So missionaries said, all right, you know what, we're just going to leave you alone. I think these people might have invented bungee jumping.

Do you remember that land diving episode? Is that them? They sound really familiar. I think it might be. Maybe so, but they are in the middle of nowhere. So it's a long way from even like other remote villages. Which is, I mean, that's a mark in your favor for now, but as the Amazon Basin has been showing us since the 70s and 80s, so much of it has disappeared due to clear cutting for ranching, logging.

You just have no idea how much longer that's going to hold up no matter where you are in the world. I mean, we're at seven and a half billion people now, and I think the next 30 years we're expected to hit 10 billion. That's a lot more people that not only need more land, but also are going to be using up those resources that are currently on that land right now, you know? Yeah, for sure.

I mean, like if they discover oil where the Korowai tribe lives in Indonesia, there goes that isolation. Yeah, probably so. And I think that's a real danger for all tribes. I think that's probably what those two anthropologists were talking about. They're saying like long term, we need a plan here, everybody. We can't just be like, well, we just won't contact them

because it's just not viable, I think was their point. Yeah. What about the, this one really was interesting to me, the old believers. Have you ever heard of them? Yeah. There was like some GQ article in the last couple of years about them. Are they well dressed? I think so. In burlap apparently. Yeah. These are Soviet. Well, here's the deal. In 1978, there were these geologists in the

Soviet Union that were looking for iron ore, they were in a helicopter, and they saw a cabin way out in the remote areas of Siberia. And they found a family there that actually spoke a language, I guess, I mean, what would that be? What language? Matthew Fischer Old-timey Russian? Peter T. Leeson Old-timey Russian. And they were huddled in fear, and they were yelling, this is for our sins.

They were dressed in burlap and living off the land. And apparently they were a group of people called the Old Believers, which left the Russian Church, the main Russian Church in the 17th century, and had been, I guess, looked at, they kind of went everywhere. It was sort of a diaspora for the old believers. Some of them just went to other countries and seeking asylum or whatever. And apparently some of them just looked to Siberia and were like, no one's there, so we'll go there.

Matthew Fosk... Nice. Matthew... It sounds creepy though, the old believers. Matthew... Oh yeah, that's a terrible name for them. You know, it seems like they could scan you or something, make your head explode. Or they worship Cthulhu or something. Yeah. So, I almost feel like we should look into them a little more because I think they could probably hold up their own episode.

I think you might be right. I also remember hearing about families that lived in the Ozark Mountains in the Midwest of the United States, I think around Arkansas, that had been out of contact, didn't even know the Civil War had happened. They were just that isolated. So yeah, you tend to think of it as just strictly indigenous peoples and that it's just in the Amazon, but like there's groups all over the world, fewer and further between outside of the Amazon because there's less unpopulated areas. But it happens.

And one of the sad things about all of this is for one of these other tribes, you know, you can go read this cracked article. What's it called? I didn't see the title actually. It's just suddenly there were five isolated groups who had no idea that civilization existed. Peter Van Doren Correct lists are always so great. Matthew Feeney They've come in handy from time to time. Peter Van Doren But one of the sad things they point out for one of these other tribes is that in Peru and imagine in some other South American countries, there are these awful things called human safaris where they

will take tourists around to like look at uncontacted tribes from afar and close up. They're like, here, drain some of this Iohuska through your nose and we're going to go check out some tribes hanging out on a riverbank somewhere. Man, so weird. Well, I want to add one more thing. I came across an article that wasn't really apropos of what we were talking about called The Right to Kill, a foreign policy magazine. And it's about like this other tangential issue that governments like Brazil have to deal with, which is like some of these isolated groups practice things that the outside world

finds abhorrent or is illegal in the outside world. Specifically in this article, infanticide. If you're born with a disability and I think about 20 of Brazil's isolated tribes, there's a chance that the community will decide that you need to die. Again, it's the practice of infanticide. And Brazil's like, we are not quite sure what to do about this

because our constitution guarantees everyone in Brazil the right to live, but it also guarantees the indigenous groups the right to live according to their customs. So they have no idea what to do. And it's a big thing about moral relativism or moral absolutism and which one's correct. And it's really interesting that they're having

to think about this right now. Yeah, for sure. It's a really interesting article, definitely worth reading. Okay. I will check it out. Are you talking to me? Yeah, I'm talking to everybody, but specifically you, yeah. Well, if you want to know more about isolated tribes, you can look those words up anywhere on the internet, and they're going to deliver you some amazing stuff.

And since I said that, it's time for listener mail. Since you said amazing stuff. Well, wiki here, dude. I have a handwritten letter on construction paper. Beautiful. Isn't that nice? Yes. I love it. Hey guys, I hope this finds you well. My name is Claire and I'm 21. In fact, for my 21st birthday, I came and saw you guys live in Cleveland.

Awesome. That was a great show. It was. I go to Hiram College and I'm studying mathematics with a license and education. So I'll be teaching high school math. I've been a fan since 2015. Thank you for the many nights. You have calmed me and all the information I've learned. And I've been wanting to write for a while just to say thanks and send appreciation, but also a request and a little something.

Whenever you talk about math in any regard, please be more positive. Please stop getting it wrong. Please be more positive and encouraging. We're well known for pooping math and saying, I hated math. Well, it's so intimidating. It's just so stupid.

It is, but she says this. Math is hard and already has a stigma for people who hate it or too hate it. But as a future educator, since you too are sort of educators, require that reach a huge audience, your outlook and attitude about math is important. It's okay to not like math and think that it's hard, but know that you and anyone can do math. I know it's a silly thing to ask and point out, but I think you could both have a positive

impact on the math stigma. I wish you and your wives and Chuck, your daughter, all the best. Thank you for all of your hard work. And thank Jerry, too. Jerry has to put up with you two all the time, so she's definitely been working hard. And she writes, sarcasm, smiley face. Have a fabulous day. And that is from Claire.

And Claire, you're right we just joke around but we should take more care with our words about the maths. You know what frankly Chuck I think miss Claire makes a great point that we should just basically take all the jokes out of our podcast entire. No. Just so no one takes it the wrong way. No. Just make it nice and neutral. No. She is right, though. She is right. We should take it easy on math.

She very nicely said, back off math. Yeah. Did she draw little Yosemite Sam at the bottom there? She did. Oh, yeah. Look at that. Nice. Well, if you want to get in touch with this like Claire did,

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