Stuff You Should Know - Short Stuff: Bliss Point

Episode Date: July 30, 2025

The food we eat – especially the junk food – is a highly engineered technical marvel that’s designed to make you want nothing other than more! more! more! Learn about how food scientists make that possible by hijacking our brains.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc. And send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one-page business plan for you.

Here's the link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with a story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second. season of my podcast, Shell Game, on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. Josh, Chuck, Jerry, not Dave, but Dave's still anyway, short stuff. That's right. Another banger of a job by you. Thanks to your research with Science and Food Journal, the marketing sage, optimizing nutrition across the margin, our old friends at how stuffworks.com, mashed and Pinolian, the Pinolian, whatever that is. Right. Yeah, they were all very good resources because this is kind of like a wide-ranging topic. We're talking about bliss, the bliss point, which is essentially what food scientists have come up with to make you eat and crave junk food ceaselessly. Yeah, you have a pretty startling stat here out of the gate. The average American consumed, and this was a few years ago in 2022, 126.4 grams of sugar a day,

which is 101 pounds or 46 kilos of sugar per American per year. Some people say it's like up to 150, which is a ton of sugar. In 1915, that number was about 17 and a half pounds. And processed foods were developed in that time span, and that's literally to blame. Yeah, for sure. And that's added sugar. That's not like the sugar from fruit. It's the sugar that you could put into a package and sell at the store.

That's the sugar that they're counting right. there. Yeah. And there's a guy named Michael Moss. He wrote a book that you probably have heard of called Salt, Sugar, and Fat, came out, I don't know, within the last decade or so. But he talks about a market researcher named Howard Moskowitz. And Moskowitz basically gave us the food industry as we understand it today. And I looked up and down to see if he expressed any remorse at the end of his life and he doesn't seem to have been anything but proud of his work. But the reason he revolutionized the food industry is that in the 70s, he identified the idea of bliss points. Like, it was almost a discovery as more than an invention. And that is the perfect balance between fat, sugar, and salt

in any given food product. It's not the same for every food product. It's specific to each individual Dorito or Cheeto or whatever. And if you do it right, people are just going to eat those things constantly and they're not going to stop. They're going to have trouble stopping, in fact. Yeah, he was a, what's known as a psychophysicist, and they are people who look at the relationship between a stimulus and your brain's response to it. And in this case, we're talking about taste as far as the stimulus, and then as far as our brain's response, it's like, I want to eat all of that that I can. Right. And he was a, eventually became known as like a really pretty brilliant market researcher who would pump out these really deep,

detailed reports on consumers consuming. Right. Yeah. And some of these could be like over 100 pages long, like really drill down to like kind of weird levels of specificity and granularity. Yeah. And he would discover a bliss point of something. And I think he's really well known for helping Prego, the saucier, come up with their chunky

variety. And he introduced 32 different mustards and 17 different olives. olive oils and a lot of other products to the market. Yeah. And again, by just doing this exhaustive market research and interviews and focus groups and testing to just figure out what people wanted and then figure out how to make it so that most, the most people would buy it because it had maximal palatibility. Yeah. And we have bliss points for everything, basically. They're different for different macronutrients. Bliss points for junk food are just heavily engineered to do that. But there are natural bliss points like protein satisfies people pretty quickly. So I think

Marty Kendahl says on the optimizing nutrition blog, I had a pretty funny mistake that we beat out, that if a food has a protein content of just 14 percent, that's going to make you feel satisfied. And that's why a lot of high protein diets are recommended because you're just probably not going to eat as much because you can feel fuller and become satisfied more quickly. Yeah. And also, that's why you rarely find protein and junk food. Yeah, exactly. They don't want you to feel satisfied. They don't want you to feel satiated.

They just want that bliss point such that your brain is like, keep going, keep going. And the reason why salt, fat, and sugar are focused on is because those three combined basically set off all of our chase buds, right? Yeah. So it really, like, pumps out a huge message to our brain saying, like, this is amazing. Let's just eat this forever. And like you said, everything kind of has a bliss point. And also, most foods or a lot of foods have these same three ingredients naturally. But again, these foods, like, aren't really engineered to keep us going, to maximize the bliss point.

They just kind of have a natural version in it. You know, like an apple tastes good because it has its own bliss point. But it's not so highly engineered that you don't just keep eating apple after apple. Yeah, that would make you sick in your belly. Yes, because they're high in fiber. They're good for that. Yeah. Should we take a break?

Yeah, we should. Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link. But there was no link.

There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle. my AI co-founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Aldman. There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one-person billion-dollar company, which would have been like unimaginable without AI and now will happen.

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award-winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people. Oh, hey, Evan. Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses. Listen to Shellgame on the IHeart Radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Like if we're on the air here and I literally have my contract here and I'm looking at, you know, as soon as I signed this, I'm going to get a seven-figure check.

I've told them I won't be working here in two weeks. From the underground clubs that shaped global music to the pastors and creators who built a cultural empire. The Atlanta Ears podcast uncovers the story. behind one of the most influential cities in the world. The thing I love about Atlanta is that it's a city of hustlers, man. Each episode explores a different chapter of Atlanta's rise, featuring conversations with ludicrous, Will Packer, Pastor Jamal Bryant, DJ Drama, and more.

The full series is available to listen to now. I really just had never experienced anything like what was going on in the city as far as like, you know, seeing so many young, black, affluent, creatives in all walks of life. life. The church had dwindled almost to nothing. And God said, this is your assignment. And that's like how you know, like, okay, oh, you from Atlanta for real. I ain't got to say too much. I'm a Grady, baby. Shut up. Listen to Atlanta is on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, now, when you're on the road, driving in your truck, why not learn a thing or two

from Josh and Chuck. It's stuff you should know. So again, salt, salt, fat, sugar. These three things, if you can get that down, your food company will probably be successful. If you can figure out how to just kind of put them together just right. And they serve other purposes, too, like salt masks the taste of other ingredients pretty well. Sugar is also preservative, so the shelf life of a product is extended from it. But really, taste is essentially what you're trying to do with this. But it goes to show you just how not precarious, just what a juggling act it is to come to the bliss point. So it's maximally palatable.

But also there's enough sugar in there to keep your, you know, stow-top stuffing from turning bad on the shelf if you don't move them fast enough. Yeah. I mean, this is one of those that's kind of disappointing to learn how sort of they're not like, let's make something that people really like and that tastes awesome. They're like, let's make something that they will eat and eat and eat. I don't know why I just became German. That's the problem with the 20th century business mindset that's still around today's. Hook your audience and you'll have profits for your shareholders constantly.

Yeah, from Doritos to social media. Yeah, it sucks. So we don't know, you know, you can't get a recipe for Dorito, you know, like an actual recipe. Right. But that optimizing nutrition blog that you found, they took hundreds of thousands of food logs and came up with some pretty good guesses on sort of a prime bliss point ratio, I guess, wherein sugar makes up or should make up about 23.5% of the calories, salt about 2.9 grams per 2,000 calories, and fat, about 24% of the foods calories. And again, this is not like the construction of a good diet. this is if you're looking to maximize that bliss point. Exactly.

Yeah, it's not a good diet. Right. So there's other things that come into play that food scientists have figured out along the way. Do you remember the chewy granola bar revolution of the early 90s? Yeah, sure. Those are good. Chewy mouthfeel was basically investigated and they figured out how to maximize that. And then also crunchy, you know, you can't really sneeze at that.

But the biggest invention or the biggest discovery, aside from Bliss Point, as far as food science goes, is vanishing caloric density, which is really important for junk food. Yeah, this is incredible. This is the idea that something that you put in your mouth to eat, that has that sort of melts in your mouth quality, your brain doesn't register that you are eating calories. So that's when popcorn is one of them. that's why you can sit down and eat a giant tub of popcorn at the movies. Because it kind of has that melt in your mouth feel, and your brain's not saying, like, maybe you should put this down because you're eating a lot of calories.

It doesn't signal your brain in that way. And the little fact that I learned from your research that hits home to my family was that they have found that Cheetos, Michael Moss said that that is the perfect snack for as far as Bliss Point goes, as far as the crunchy mouth feel, the flavor ratio, and most importantly, that vanishing caloric density. and my friend, my wife, Emily, has a Cheeto problem, such that we don't keep Cheetos in the house. She's like, I can't stop eating them when they're in the house.

I know how she feels. I've got some products like that that I don't keep in the house. You can't. I do have to say, though, that it's gotten easier and easier with just how ridiculous the prices are for chips these days. Yeah, chips are pricey. It's insane, Chuck. Like a bag of ruffles, pretty much. printed on the bag is $7.50 for half of a bag of Ruffles potato chips now. That is insane.

The only good part of it is hopefully more and more people are like, I'm not eating chips anymore. This is dumb. Yeah, I mean, we don't eat a lot of that stuff. When we'll go to the lake for the weekends with like kids and stuff, we'll get like chips and dip and that's always fun. I do have a French onion sun chip problem. Yeah. Oh, fan, I love that so much. I'll feel of those turn me off, actually. Oh, I love it. And they also, they're one of those sort of evils that make you think you're eating sort of a healthy, like a multi-grained thing. And it's like, I don't think those are any healthier than a fried potato chip. Right.

Well, here, take my hand and help me off on my soapbox because I have a follow-up question about Emily's Cheeto problem. All right, let's hear it. Does she like the original Cheetos, the straight-ahead version, or is she more like a fiery hot version kind of Cheeto lover? No, she's a standard Cheeto and to be specific, not a cheese puff either like a real Cheeto like a Fred Flintstone Club Cheeto but it's funny that she accidentally

got some of those flaming huts and Ruby was like I want to try those and we're like, no those are way too hot you can't eat those and she was like, no I can handle it and she ate it and it was one of those things where you can see like her eyes starting water and she was like these are really good

I like these. She played it all? Oh yeah, she's like I want to take those to school and then we later found she was trading them. I'm sure, yeah. She's like, here, try one of these. You'll love it. Exactly.

So, okay, so just figuring out the bliss point is not enough. You don't just figure it out and release it. You try a million different combinations, maybe not a million, but not that far off. And you test it with people. That's how you fine-tune everything and get it just right so that you find that bliss point that's going to help you sell as much.

And so those taste tests can, like, really start to add up. There's some legendary ones, as a matter of fact, one of them is Prego Chunky. Yeah, we mentioned that earlier. They had 45 different versions of Prego Chunky that they were testing until they got to their main one. And then I'm going to let you handle the Dr. Pepper because that's just amazing. Cherry Vanilla Dr. Pepper, they went through 61 different versions and 4,000 different taste tests before they finally released it. It's not bad.

I've never tried it. I mean, I'm not a Dr. Pepper guy. It's such a specific, I don't like hate it, but it's just not one I go to. I'm not either, but that's, or wait, maybe it's the cream soda, Dr. Pepper that's not bad. I don't, I don't really drink it either, but I tried one once, and I was like, that's actually pretty good. Yeah. What about Oreos, Chuck? Because one of the things they've become known for in the last few years is releasing just nutso flavors all the time.

Yeah, and, you know, this is probably the Gen X and me coming out. but I love a, I do love a standard Oreo, but to me they hit peak Oreo with the double stuff standard. Oh, really? You don't like lemon? No. I mean, I'm not into limine dessert desserts. Yeah, you probably wouldn't like lemon Oreos.

I think they're very good. And I also think some of the limited editions they've come out with are pretty good. Like birthday cake, which is the first one they did to commemorate their 100th birthday back in 2012. To me, it was very good. I think it's still around. To me, the pinnacle was Rice Krispy Treats Oreos. They were amazing. That sounds so good.

They were really, really good. If they re-released any, I would definitely go get those. But I've very fortunately been like, I should probably stop buying like crazy flavored Oreos because I just eat the whole bag like in one sitting, basically. Oh, man, glass of coal, whole milk. Yeah, Oreos go really well with that. But, oh, the reason why that they've been.

releasing so many flavors is that they figured out when they release a crazy flavor, it gets lots of press, so it gets people to the stores, right? And they found that when people are at the stores to buy that crazy flavored Oreo, they apparently remember how much they love the original Oreos like you, so they buy both. Yeah. That's great to an extent. I guess it's great for Nabisco. Yeah, I bet that was a finding too, where they were like, oh my God, look what's happening. Yeah. Chuck went to get a Lady Gaga Oreo and he got the double stuff as well. I know that's so weird.

That's one of the flavors. And I guess before we sign off, Chuck, I think we should remind everybody, as we have many times, Oreo is the knockoff, Hydrox is the original. That's right. Everybody's short stuff is at.

Stuff you should know is a production of IHeartRadio. For more podcasts to My Heart Radio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.