Stuff You Should Know - SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: The Harvey’s Casino Bombing of 1980

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

In August of 1980 a bomb containing 1,000 pounds of dynamite was quietly delivered to Harvey’s, a casino and resort at Lake Tahoe. This kicked off a whirlwind caper that lasted 30 hours and ended up nearly demolishing the 11-story resort.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, it's Gemma's Begg, host of the Psychology of Your 20s. This September at the Psychology of Your 20s, we're breaking down the very interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like why we crave external validation. I find it so interesting that we are so quick to believe others' judgments of us and not our own judgment of ourselves. So according to this study, not being liked actually creates similar pain levels

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The bombing of Harvey's Casino in Lake Tahoe, Nevada is one of the great overlooked capers. It's kind of nuts how anything like the Harvey's bombing could ever be forgotten, considering the outcome. This episode has it all. A great plot, incompetent criminals, an amazingly well-designed bomb, and a huge explosion. And it's made even cooler somehow because it takes place in 1980. Plus, no one dies, which makes it okay for me to call this episode kind of charming. Enjoy. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of IHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, and this is Stuff You Should Know.

Oh, the true crime edition where nobody gets hurt. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, I think this falls into our sort of caper a ditch. Yes, well put. Well put. Editions. Do we have any other capers? Yeah, like the Chow Chiliping.

And I think any non-mur crime podcast, I think, would fall under this. Like D.B. Cooper. Exactly. And before I forget, Chuck, that was definitely a caper. Good call. This was a request, which, like you said last time, we've been doing a lot of these lately, but this one was requested by Nick Hales. And I say, good request, Nick. Thanks for that.

And I totally spaced on shouting out Neil Stevens from the UK for Georgia Guidestones episode. He requested it and gave me the idea to do it. All right. Nice work. This one was so familiar to me that I was sure that we had either touched on it or that I saw what I really thought was. that I saw a documentary about it, but I hadn't, because I don't think there's been one. I don't know what it is. It was really familiar with some other thing, true life thing that I saw.

I don't know. I don't know, but the fact that there's not a movie about this is insane. Yeah, I don't know if it's movie-worthy. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, man, just like the pork-chop's eye burns alone, I think, would warrant a movie. But because I said pork chop sideburns, of course, we're talking about 1980, right, Chuck, August 26, 1980? That's right.

And on August 26, 1980, very early in the morning, a couple of delivery dudes, would-be delivery dudes, wield a big piece of equipment, had a cover on it, said IBM, into Harvey's Resort Hotel in Lake Tahoe, Nevada. Shout out to our buddy, Aaron Hagar, representing Lake Tahoe. Oh, is he in Tahoe? Oh, yeah. He's got it made out there in Tahoe. Nice. Except for the Bears and Wildfires. I'll bet he's heard of this story then. I bet you he has.

We'll hear from him on this. But anyway, they wheeled it in there up to the second floor offices and dropped it off and basically skid-addled after that. They had a guy waiting in a van outside and drove them the heck out of there. Yeah. So it's kind of weird, 5 a.m. to drop off a piece of office equipment. not waiting around for anybody to sign it. Kind of odd. And within an hour, the oddity behind it kind of became really apparent. A slot manager, I believe, or maybe the night manager in general,

he noticed this piece of office equipment that was kind of randomly placed on the second floor offices, and he saw that there was a note by it. And he gathered some other employees, and they were all kind of hanging out reading the note. And one of the details I love that I saw in an Adam Higginbottom article on the adivist, was that one of the people reading the note was leaning up against the machine while they were reading the note. All right.

The notes said, should we read the note? Yeah, because then it makes the whole thing about somebody leaning up against it really hilarious. All right. Stern warning to the management and bomb squad, at which case I would have been out of there. That's all I need to hear. Right, exactly.

Do not move or tilt this bomb because the mechanism controlling the detonators in it We'll set it off at a movement of less than 0.01 of the open-end Richter scale. So let's confuse people right out of the gate is with this note, is what this guy's sinking. Sure. Don't try to flood or gas the bomb. There's a float switch and an atmosphere pressure switch set at two numbers, 26.0 to 33. Both are attached to detonators.

Do not try to take it apart. The flathead screws are attached to triggers. and as much of a quarter to three quarters of a turn will cause the explosion. In other words, this bomb is so sensitive that the slightest movement, either inside or outside, will cause it to explode, full stop. Yeah, and you can guess the person leaning against the machine

stood up and moved away from it, right? That's right. And basically they said... I love that part. No one can detonate or no one can deactivate this bomb. Not even I, not even the creator can diffuse this thing. So it is going to go off at some point. Your best hope of not getting hurt is to pay a $3,000 ransom and you're going to receive

instructions on how to move it out of here so it can explode somewhere else. Yeah, and it would have been a bargain for $3,000. There was actually a $3 million ransom. Did it say $3,000? I think you were being optimistic. Yeah, three months. But it was a big fat ransom. And the bomb itself, I mean, if you just look at the,

at the ransom note, when it's talking about the bomb, that's a pretty amazing bomb. And it actually became pretty legendary with the FBI, so much so that I saw that they still, I don't know if they still did today, but for many years, they used it as a teaching model for bomb technicians. And the FBI considered it very sophisticated. And they said it was unlike anything any bomb technician had ever seen before. No one had ever made a bomb like this. Yeah, a very good bomb, if there was such a thing. thing. It was a couple of stacked boxes lined with metal and rubber that through conventional

methods, you couldn't separate. Of course, without it going boom. And so the FBI did what they do in this case. They come in. They start taking pictures. They x-ray it. They sweep it for fingerprints. Obviously, they don't move it. They find out that it has about a thousand pounds of dynamite inside and they can't find a way to like basically they're saying this note seems to be right on the money like we can't find a way at least right off the bat about how to diffuse this thing safely yeah and very famously the bomb technicians in the room sort of running around in aimless circles saying oh my god oh my god oh my god oh my god and they did that for a good three hours i think before somebody stepped in and stopped them but that ransom note also showed a lot

of planning, not just the bomb. Like, this bomb was amazing, just full stop amazing. One to really be proud of if you were a bomb maker. But the actual heist itself had like a real shot at extorting this $3 million successfully. And it started with, they knew what they were doing out of the gate. They said we want $3 million in used bills, $100 bills, already used, not marked, not bug, don't even try to chemically treat them, and we want you to fly a helicopter to Lake Tahoe Airport, have the pilot land by the payphone, and wait by the payphone for instructions. Our instructions are going to come from the payphone. Who knows?

They could also come by taxi. They could also come by carrier pigeon. I'm making that last one up. But they were just trying out of the gate to confuse them so that they couldn't plan for everything. And it was, I think it was a really well-planned heist. Yeah, I mean, they basically said no one involved from this point that you meet up with. Like, anyone that might deliver a note, any someone that might drive a vehicle that's involved, like no one's going to know anything, so don't bother.

And I think I believe that that's probably true. They said that, you know, I, the creator of the bomb, I'm not going to be a part of this money drop. I'm not going to be around. Nobody that's a part of any of this exchange of money is going to know any. about how to defuse this bomb. Like, this thing is going to go off, and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Again, the only thing that you can do is follow what will ultimately be six sets of instructions to safely get this bomb out of there after I get my loot.

Yeah, after he gets the loot, or they. So the first set of instructions was going to be given to the helicopter pilot. The rest of the instructions would arrive through the local post office, which is putting a lot of a lot of faith in the USPS. But then there was another demand, too, that was probably the most ridiculous demand of all. They said that all news media, local or national, was to be kept ignorant of the heist until the bomb was successfully removed, right? Yeah, that was impossible. Totally impossible, because the first thing the cops did when they realized, like, this is for real, which they figured out pretty quickly. I think the thing was discovered before 6 a.m., and by 7 or 8, at the very

latest. They were rousting hotel guests at Harvey's. Many of them from sleep telling them like, nope, you don't have time to grab your belongings. You got to go. And not only did they evacuate Harvys, a thousand pounds of dynamite can do some real damage. They actually evacuated Harrahs across the street from Harvey's too. Yeah. So they said, you're all going to go to this nearby high school. And of course, the media, it's a big thing when that happens when people were being like massively bust out in their bathrobes and stuff. So basically within a few hours, like all the media knows this. They cordoned off the area.

There's people hanging out. There's gockers. There's reporters. There's before you know it, of course, because there's casinos around there. They're taking bets, of course, like over under on whether this thing's going to detonate. And not only did they not keep the media out of it, but it became like, I mean, call the sensation indicates that it drug on. It was like a day in change, but it was a crazy day and change for the media. For sure. And it was over the week before Labor Day weekend. So Tahoe

was crawling with people. And this was 1980, right? Just 36 years before, the first casino was opened on the south shore of Lake Tahoe, and it was opened by the same guy whose hotel now had a bomb in it. Harvey Gross. His first thing was Harvey's wagon wheel saloon and gambling hall, which I saw described as a cabin that had six slot machines in it. And at the time in Tahoe Chuck, there was no phone, no water, no sewer, no power lines. The roads would close at like the first sign of snow. And it was like a real podunk area. But gambling made it actually. Put it on the map. For a second there, I thought you were going to say Not a single luxury Oh man I really should have I wish I had I'm not on my game today

Like Robinson Caruso There are what? Primitivist can be right? That's what they said But it was the 60s You wouldn't say that anymore So things go great for Harvey And his little wagon wheel cabin

You know it's on the state line of California So that's a pretty smart thing because you get those out-of-staters, those richies from California, throwing down some money. Yeah, and it was so on the state line. It was in a town called state line. That's very Nevada. It's very on the nose.

And isn't it Nevada? I'm so nervous about us saying it the right way because those people will email you like gangbusters. Oh, it's Nevada, but I always say Nevada. Okay, but they say it Nevada. Yeah, everyone outside the state of Nevada says Nevada, and it drives them nuts. It drives them crazy.

It's really something. So Harvey, no, let's wait on a break. So Harvey was doing great with this little tiny casino in the 40s. It through the 50s makes a lot of dough. And by 63 had expanded and upgraded to Harvey's Lake Tahoe, which at the time was the tallest building at 11 stories, which is, you know, that's a pretty tall building for that area of the country. Yeah, less than 20 years, he went from a cabin to an 11-story.

casino resort. Yeah. And I believe it was at that same 11-story casino resort that this bomb was placed in 1980, 17 years later. And Harvey himself was like, I mean, he was a casino owner in Nevada. Like he had, I don't want to say checkered past, but he had a past. Like he'd been hauled in front of the IRS for tax evasion. There was, he had been given an honorary name by the Nevada intertribal.

Did I say it right, Nevada? No. By the Nevada Inter-Tribal Council, he was called Chief Hunai. And there was an article that was written back in, I think, 1980 that said that it meant the man who runs the game and takes a percentage of the bets. I don't know if that's a joke or not. I can't tell. I don't either, because that's definitely like that era kind of joke, you know. You can see that on like a teaky napkin.

But the long and short of it is he was. he'd had his little run-ins with the IRS and stuff and the gaming boarded, but it wasn't anything unusual. He wasn't like some bad guy, like a mafioso type. He was, like he said, he owned a casino, and there's, you know, he's going to be brought up by the IRS at some point. But all of this to say, he wasn't like some big mark because of like all his dirty dealings in his past, basically.

I saw him actually referred to as a good guy by some people. Yeah, it sounds like it. Like, he was well known to have put off expansion. Like, he didn't want to expand to other towns. He basically said, I'm making enough money. He had a quote that he would refer to as, I have a nice little business. How many steaks can I eat?

Which is to say, like, he had everything he needed, and this was fine. He was happy with his business where it was. That's right. But it was the 70s and into the early 80s, which was just sort of the golden age of all this kind of stuff, of kidnappings and ransoms and hijackings. And it just seems like all this kind of hijinks, there's still stuff like that happens occasionally,

but not like it did back then. I think it's because, Chuck, the police state hadn't evolved enough that they would catch you no matter what. Yeah, cameras everywhere now. Right. And leaded gas had been around long enough to really have the effects.

a whole new generation of brains. So you put those two things together. You have everything converging on the 70s for people trying all sorts of heists and kidnappings and stuff like that. Yeah, and that happened back then around there even. I think as far back as the early 70s, there were kidnapping conspiracies against gross,

ransom things that had been uncovered. In the late 70s, there were smoke bombs with ransom notes found at other casinos around Tahoe. I don't know about that. It was, what, the smoke bombs? Yeah, what is that? You might as well say, like, there's a box of sparklers in your lobby. Give me 500,000 simoleans or else.

Give me 35 cents. I know, to pay me back for the smokebobs. So it was a time where if you owned a casino that brought in, I think he made about 4 million profit, but brought in like $70 million a year like his did, then that simply just meant you were a mark by virtue of that fact alone. Right. The thing is, though, is the FBI found out, as they started investigating the case, about a year after, that it actually was a personal vendetta against Harvey himself or Harvey's casino that led to that bomb being placed there in August of 1980.

That sounds like a great cliffhanger for a break. Thank you. Thanks, man. All right. We'll get back to it right after this. Think back to the early 2000s. You're flipping through TV channels, and then you hear this. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you!

Learn something from this! But looking back 20 years later, that iconic show so many of us loved, is horrified. Robin, first of all, is too old to be starting a model. She's huge. I talked to cast, crew, and producers who were there for some of the show's most shocking moments. If you were so rooting for her, what did you help her? With never before heard interviews, the curse of America's Next Top Model examines why this show was so popular and where it all went wrong. We basically sold our souls and they got rich.

Listen to the curse of America's Next Top Model on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get to. podcast. Hi, it's Jemisbeg, host of the psychology of your 20s. Remember when you used to have Science Week at school? Well, if you loved that, how would you feel about a full psychology month? This September at the Psychology of Your 20s, we're breaking down the interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like how our pets actually change our brain chemistry, the psychology of office politics, whether happening.

is even a real emotion and my favorite episode, why do we all secretly crave external validation? It's so interesting to me that we are so quick to believe others' judgments of us and not our own. I found a study that said, Not Being Like actually creates similar levels of pain as physical pain. Like, no wonder we care so much. So the secret is, if you want to be okay with not being liked,

you have to know why your brain craves it in the first place. Learn more about the psychology of external validation, everyday life, and of course, your 20s. This September, listen to The Psychology of Your 20s on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get, your podcasts. And here's Heather with the weather. Well, it's beautiful out there, sunny and 75, almost a little chilly in the shade. Now, let's get a read on the inside of your car. It is hot. You've only been parked a short time, and it's already 99 degrees in there.

Let's not leave children in the back seat while running errands. It only takes a few minutes for their body temperatures to rise, and that could be fatal. Cars get hot, fast, and can be deadly. Never leave a child in a car. A message from Nitzai and the ad council. All right, so we're back in action here at the bomb site. The FBI's bomb squad is working hard Trying to figure this thing out

They have another team working on a fake ransom drop Special agent William Junkie Basically told Harvey Hey listen Why don't we drag this thing out as much as we can We'll do a fake payoff arrangement Maybe we can just sort of put off this bomb going off Long enough for us to figure it out

Either how to stop it or how to catch these people Like the bomb is going to go off no matter what And once Gross heard that, he was like, well, I'm not paying anything. If this thing's going off no matter what, you can use my, by God, you can use my own helicopter for the drop even. And that's what they did. They used his own personal helicopter, but the pilot was a Fed. And there was another Fed with a gun hiding behind the pilot seat with a suitcase full of mostly fake money. Yeah, I think a few grand is what I saw.

And just like the ransom note said, the agent flew the helicopter at Lake Tophobacco. Airport, landed next to the payphone, and got there just in time from what I saw for the phone to start ringing, although I suspect they were being watched. And the phone rang, and rather than giving them instructions over the phone, I think it's hilarious that they said, look underneath the phone. There's instructions taped beneath the phone, and then I guess hung up. We didn't want to tape it to the front of the phone booth. Right. So he checks out the instructions, and it says, okay, this is what you're going to do. You're going to fly west along the highway for 15 minutes from the airport, and you're going to turn.

There's some compass setting they told them to turn toward. I never found which one. And then after a certain amount of time, he should start looking for a beacon, which is going to be a strobe light in a field. He should land there, and that's where the money drop would happen. And so the pilot took off, and he did exactly as the thing instructed, as the Ransom Note instructed. And there was nothing. He flew around for 45 minutes just waiting, hoping, I guess probably came close to running out of gas. And then he flew back to the Lake Tahoe Airport and went back to the pay phone in case they called to say, like, what the heck's going on?

And they never did call, actually. So the money drop never happened. I wonder. The Fed takes off, and he's got the other Fed behind him hiding with a gun. And he's like, hey, how do you think this guy knows how far we're going to be in 15 minutes? And the other Fed went, beats me. And that's exactly what happened. And it's at this point in the story where we will introduce you to the guy behind the whole thing.

And we'll learn more about him later. But his name was John Waldo Burgess Sr. And that was one of the key mistakes he made. He kind of botched this money drop because he should have said miles, like fly so many miles or fly to this destination. He just said fly for 15 minutes. and I don't know if he put at like at an average rate of speed for your helicopter right but the long and short of it is they didn't know after he had flown 15 minutes exactly where he was going to end up and they were like well that stinks and this is after

they had forgotten the battery to the strobe light right they left it in Fresno they eventually got one yeah they left it at their place they eventually got one they tried to break into an auto parts store to get one and got chased off and then got one at a shell station so they had the strobe but by the time all this happens they don't even know where the helicopter is no and that shell station also has its own hilarious story because the gas station attendant they were trying to buy the battery from basically was like why no you need this kind of battery for the Volvo that you have parked outside that you're driving they're like it doesn't matter what kind of battery it's for he's like well yeah it does because

Volvo won't take any battery and they finally i guess convinced them to just sell them a battery. And he's like, fine, I guess. You're going to find out yourself that it's not going to work. And they finally drove off. That's how they got the battery. But they made it to that drop point, which was 25 miles away from the airport. And they sat there and waited and waited and waited and waited. No helicopter came. And the reason why is because they were separated by so many miles. They couldn't even hear the helicopter where it was. It was so far away from where they were at the drop site. All right, so this is botched.

Back at the bomb site at the casino, a full-on party is going on because it's a casino and people are just out of their minds at those places. So the barricades are set up. People are selling t-shirts. I got bombed at Lake Tahoe. I had a dynamite time at Lake Tahoe. That's how quickly this thing was moving.

And the bomb squad team said, all right, here's what I think we should do. like they call this and they said if we flip switch number five then it'll buy some more time because this thing isn't playing out quite right but i don't know if i trust that no one volunteered to flick that switch like they they felt basically we should go on our own uh like with our own gut feeling on how to do this which is to uh basically blow this box apart but do it so quickly that it severs the uh relay switch like before the signal can reach the dynamite Yeah, it was just pretty fast. And it was possible. They had some of like the greatest minds in the United States who knew about bombs working on this problem. And they designed a charge especially for this. And it was built and brought to the site and put up. And they said, this still has at best a 25 to 30 percent chance. But we talked to the engineer, one of the engineers at Harvey's, and he said, it probably won't bring the whole building down. So let's give it a shot. And so almost 35 hours after. the bomb had been discovered around 3 p.m. The next day, a guy named Danny Daniel was the person who volunteered to go take the charge, put it on the bomb exactly at the angle he was told to put it at, and then walked out and started the countdown for the remote triggering. And remember, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people thronged together to watch this to see if it worked.

And when they finally did, apparently they broadcast the radio, the accountant, down on like local radio chuck and when they finally set it off that charge did not work the way it was intended no it set off the bomb uh the entire thing went off and it was like we said it was a thousand pounds of dynamite it created a 40 to 50 foot hole in the ground in the middle of this casino uh shooting shrapnel everywhere obviously shooting cash and chips everywhere which is obviously problematic yeah they said there were t-futable set swinging on cords, toilets hanging by the pipes, it was a huge, massive explosion in the middle of a casino. And because it's a casino and because it's Tahoe, it was not very

long afterward that the surrounding casinos got right back to business. And it didn't take too long a couple of days before Harvey's got back to business with what was left of the casino. They put glass around it and was kind of like, hey, come see the bomb hole and And gamble some. And watch the FBI work on this crime scene that just took place. So one of the other great details of this story for me is that the bandits didn't know that the bomb had been detonated. And so a few minutes after the bomb went off, they called the local sheriff's office and said, we'll be calling back in one hour to arrange another payment drop.

He said whatever. Yeah. Can't you imagine the person who took the call being like, oh, yeah, great. Okay, we'll talk to you in an hour. Yeah, yeah, so that didn't matter. Harvey Gross was very sad. He just cried when he saw the damage, $18 million worth of damage. And, you know, we'll tell you what ultimately happened later.

But they got back to business, like I said, and I guess we should talk a little bit more about who this mastermind was. I agree, Chuck, and I say before we start talking about the mastermind behind the plot, we take a break. All right, let's do it. Think back to the early 2000s. You're flipping through TV channels, and then you hear this. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you!

Learn something from this! But looking back 20 years later, that iconic show so many of us loved, is horrified. Robin, first of all, is too old to be starting the model. She's huge. I talked to cast, crew, and producers who were there for some of the show's most shocking moments. If you were so rooting for her, what did you help her? With never before heard interviews, the curse of America's Next Top Model examines why this show was so popular and where it all went wrong. We basically sold our souls and they got rich.

Listen to the curse of America's Next Top Model. top model on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, it's Jemisbeg, host of the psychology of your 20s. Remember when you used to have Science Week at school? Well, if you loved that, how would you feel about a full psychology month? This September at the Psychology of your 20s, we're breaking down the interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like how our pets actually change. change our brain chemistry, the psychology of office politics, whether happiness is even a real emotion. And my favorite episode, why do we all secretly crave external validation? It's so

interesting to me that we are so quick to believe others' judgments of us and not our own. I found a study that said, not being liked actually creates similar levels of pain as physical pain. Like, no wonder we care so much. So the secret is, if you want to be okay with not being liked, you have to know why your brain craves it in the first place. Learn more about the psychology of external validation, everyday life, and of course your 20s. This September, listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get, your podcasts.

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So we already revealed who it was. was, a guy named John Burgess, Sr. And his son wrote a book later that I saw he called the publisher to find out how many copies had been sold at the time, and they told him zero. But in this book, he depicts his dad as not a very nice guy. He was an abusive husband, physically abusive, a really terrible dad. He liked to emotionally blackmail his family by threatening to take his life by suicide. and he was an actual Nazi, like a genuine Nazi, just to put the cherry on top of everything.

Yeah, he flew for the Luftwaffe and spent eight years in a Soviet prison camp before coming to America and becoming a multimillionaire. So it kind of ended up okay for him. He had a landscaping business in Fresno that apparently did really, really well, but he also liked to gamble a lot and lost a ton of money over there.

the years. I think about $750,000 they'd estimated that he lost, I think, at Harvey's alone, right? I think that was the whole shebang, but most of that was at Harvey's. That was my take on it. Okay. And we do need to put a pin in something else, is that years before he had a business, a restaurant, that it was pretty clear that he burned down for the insurance money, got $355,000. from that and gambled that away. Yeah, he was that kind of guy, right? So the heist itself, it was an attempt to make back some of the money that the house had taken from him over the years that he felt bitter about. But also the reason that he targeted Harvey's, they later found out, was that on some New Year's Eve, a year or two before, he had been given the high roller suite. That's how often he gambled at Harvey's.

Like, he was well-known there. But he had amassed such a debt that they actually took him that evening out of the high roller suite and put him in a regular room. That was why I did it, man. Much to his great humiliation. Yeah. I mean, that was pretty much why he, at least why he targeted Harvey's. He considered quite a loss of pride because I guess he was with a date and the date was like, I thought you said you were a big time, which didn't make it any better. So that's why Harvey's got targeted in particular.

That's right. And they put Aaron Hagar in that suite instead. They did. And everything was right with the world. That's right. So actually, Aaron's, he's about my age that. He would have been a kid back then. Or maybe they did. He could have been high rolling. Maybe he was like a nine or ten year old, like running the show in that gambling room. I could totally see it. So we mentioned he was Burgess Senior. There was a Burgess Jr. He had a couple of sons, John Jr. and Jimmy, who were 20 and 18, respectively.

And then Jimmy, or wait, was Ella Williams the senior's girlfriend? Yes. Okay. So you had a girlfriend named Ella Williams who were also in on it and these two numskulls who delivered the bomb named Bill Brown and Terry Hall. The FBI later said after they caught Bill Brown, they described him, or no, it was from a report like somebody who witnessed the bomb being delivered. They said one of them was a hayseed, a real goober type. That's how they described Bill Brown. And it's sad for Bill Brown and Terry Hall, Chuck,

because they got a total of $2,100. But it wasn't until after they were driven away early that morning that they were told what they'd just done. They did not know that they were delivering a bomb until after they delivered the bomb. Isn't that terrible? Yeah, I mean, they were probably just sold here some money, go deliver this thing.

That was a lot of money. That's exactly right. Yeah, and John Burgess Jr. just totally misled him, which is another mark against that guy. all right so spinning back a little bit when they hatch this plan the first thing they did was go out and get all this dynamite which they stole from a power plant in California and stashed it in their walk-in freezer in their garage and started building this bomb and no one that's kind of one of the mysteries of this case is it was such a sophisticated device and no one still really knows how this guy managed to build this thing. if he had help, if he was just this bomb genius that no one knew about, or was just super smart and did his research. But no one really knows how he managed to build such a sophisticated bomb.

I mean, it's still not clear. I don't think anybody will ever know. He just did it. And what's crazy is John Burgess might have gotten away with the whole thing. The FBI did not, they were not on him initially. They interviewed something like 500 suspects in the whole case. and there were two things that seemed to have brought Burgess down. One was a hotel owner who was the night manager of the hotel that Burgess, Brown, and Hall stayed at before they planted the bomb.

Her name was Nancy Domenico, and she found those three suspicious enough that she wrote down their license plate on their van, make model, color, and the license plate number, and just kept it on file just in case. And it turned out that that would become really important later on. And then the other factor was John Burgess, Jr. had a really loud mouth, it turns out. Yeah, he had a girlfriend leading up to the event, and he would just brag all about this thing. They break up. You never think about the breakup side of things when you're spilling your innermost thoughts. Yeah. And she has a new boyfriend, tells him all about this guy I dated before you, that told me all about this bomb plot.

The new boyfriend calls in the FBI tip. So now they have a couple of tips pointing to these dudes. Yeah. They track down the van that Nancy Domenico had reported as shady. And it was a van that was registered to the restaurant that Burgess Sr. allegedly had burned down. So that's where that comes back into play. Yeah. So they're like, okay, let's go interview John Burgess Sr.

And John Burgess Sr. says, oh, John Jr. was driving the van. He's completely gave his son. Immediately. Yeah. I mean, like that first interview said, and probably said, here's his address. Hopefully, at least call his son to give him a heads up. I don't know.

But they went over and they interviewed John Jr. And he said, yes, I was around Tahoe at the time. Yes, I was with my van. But I was looking for places to plant marijuana. And you know that's true because I've just admitted to a crime to the FBI. Right? Right? And apparently the FBI didn't.

didn't really buy it. They said, like, that story is awful. But he stuck to it, and they didn't have anything else they could get him on right then. But he was definitely on their radar from that point forward. I thought it was a pretty good story to be put on the spot, personally. Well, it didn't work, but like, to admit to another crime, I was like, all right, not bad. I'll give you that part. The FBI was like, you're kidding, right? He said, the battery died, so I abandoned the van. Somebody must have taken it. it and used it in the crime and then brought it back while I was away from the van. Right, well, which is a long way of saying wasn't me.

Right, exactly. So they, you know, they do what they do in the movies. They don't have enough hard evidence. So they spend a year getting that evidence, building a case. And a montage with a great, like, upbeat song where they're putting this stuff together, right? Sure. I don't know why John Jr. and John Sr. are still in the country. I would have been out of there so fast.

Where would you go? I'd leave the country. I know. Where would you go? Oh, that's a really good question. Everyone just always talks about, like, who would you have over for dinner, living or dead? Like, where would you go if you were guilty of a bombing blot? I mean, it's got to be a non-extradition treaty country, right?

So you're looking at, like, Venezuela. I'd have to do my research then. But, yeah, I would go someplace with a beach and, like, a very quiet life. okay yeah and then they just you know they eventually show up at the beach in the movie as well so yeah but they tie out of your hands and your toast exactly Canada has beaches sure lovely beaches okay not quite the beaches I was looking for though you're welcome Chuck so the FBI is getting this evidence they have rewards I think like a half a million bucks is about as high as the reward went and finally about a year later

They arrest John Jr. and Jimmy, and they say, they dangle a little carrot in front of their faces. I'm so glad you said carrot. How would you like to turn on dad and maybe get a little leniency? And they went, that jerk, I'm happy to. And that's exactly what they did. Right. And they turned on their dad. They arrested their dad.

They arrested Ella Williams, Bill Brown, Terry Hall. And from what we understand, every single person who had anything to do. with that was rounded up in one fell swoop, basically. And the conviction started coming out. Ella Williams got seven years for her involvement. And she hasn't factored in hugely into this podcast, but she was definitely an accomplice. She typed the ransom notes up. She did a lot. I think she dropped some people off at one of the landing sites. Like, she was very much involved. So she got seven years, but a judge later overturned her conviction. And I couldn't see why. But as far as I know, she did not do any time in prison, maybe beyond her trial.

Yeah, I think the sons did get that leniency. As for John Sr., he represented himself in court, cross-examined his own sons, eventually got 20 years in federal prison, and then I believe, life without parole, and state prison. Yeah, the big key to his defense was his sons had given him a Father's Day card that said, you're the best dad around 10 years before. It didn't work on the jury. Sorry. How could I have done this? He served 16 years, died in prison of cancer. But then there's one final little potential twist here, right?

Yeah. So John Burgess had talked to a reporter while he was alive, and he said, you know what? This wasn't my idea. I was a patsy. I was a rube. I got dragged into this by a loan shark. I owed 60 large to. That's what you say when you're a gambler.

And he recruited me. to plant this bomb, and that really the loan shark was working on behalf of Harvey's top executives and the mafia who were conspiring to blow the place up so that they could collect the insurance money. Look you there. You believe it? Not at all. No. Same.

No, and like the thing that just like completely proves it is, yeah, they used insurance money to rebuild. It's like, no, that doesn't prove anything. Of course you're going to use insurance money. to rebuild it doesn't mean there is a conspiracy there right is that place still there any idea yeah it's still there um i think it's been updated even even more since then but yeah as far as i know harvies is still there awesome i don't know why over the past two weeks i never thought to look that up me either i'm almost positive we'll have to leave it to erin hagar to tell us whether it's there or not sweet it is i'm looking at a picture of it it's definitely been updated well while you're

online um why don't you look at ebay and and see if there's any, like, I Got Bombed at Harvey's T-shirts still around. Oh, wow. Well, if there are, I'm not going to tell you, I'm just going to get you one for Christmas. Fair enough. I like that a lot. That's a good plan. Well, since Chuck said what he's going to get me for Christmas, and I realized, man, I've got to figure out what to get Chuck for Christmas.

It's time for listener mail. You just got me a great record. Which one? Oh, the Bill Evans one, yeah. Yeah. You like it? Have you listened to it yet? I love it.

I mean, hey, it's Bill Evans, but it's just, yeah, it's good. Very evocative of changing the seasons, which I think was the whole point. For sure. I'm glad you liked it. All right. Hey, guys, after listening to the introvert extrovert episode, I thought I'd reach out because Chuck, at one point, talked about finding ways to discipline his child by removing fun activities. I don't remember saying that. Oh, you were so mad.

You were, like, frothing at the mouth. I've never heard you more angry. You don't even really do that, so I'm not sure if I may have been kidding or not. Anyway, I'm a third grade teacher, because this is like a tip here, so we've got to read the tips. I'm a third grade teacher on a reservation, and with 16 kids in my class, I have never had to use discipline. My classroom functions like a well-oiled machine due to a type of behavior management known in the educational world as PBIS, positive behaviors, and supports. It's a way to manage challenging child behavior solely, solely through the use of using praise and rewards. Wow.

It can easily be applied in the context of raising your own child, says Anne. Especially if you want to raise a psychopath. This is a huge topic. And one that is near and dear to my heart, I thought it might be incredibly useful for all the parents out there who, like Chuck, struggle to find a way to manage their child's behavior through convention of discipline. Man, this guy's scoring all over you, Chuck. A little bit. This is Anthony. You guys rock.

Thanks for all the wonderful knowledge and hilarious dialogue. I want to be super clear, Anthony. We don't struggle to find a way to manage her behavior. She's a good kid. And not to say that kids who have trouble behaving are bad kids at all. Everyone has their challenges as kids and parents. But it's not too bad. And I don't know that this PBIS would work necessarily in my mind.

household. But hey, I mean, we already do that kind of thing, but I'll ramp it up and see if that helps. There you go. Run an experiment, Chuck, in true S-Y-S-K fashion. Sure. I'm curious, though, because Anthony didn't say if Anthony had kids, because I will say that the way kids behave for teachers is not at all related to how they behave for parents a lot of times. I can imagine. For sure. So, yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, if you guys listening out there, try this, let us know if it works or what. And also, Anthony, thank you very much for writing in Anthony. It was great.

So if you want to be like Anthony, you can write in too to Stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of IHeartRadio. For more podcasts to My Heart Radio, visit the IHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Janica Lopez, and in the new season of The Over Comfort Podcast, I'm even more honest, more vulnerable, and more real than ever. Am I ready to enter this new part of my life? Like, am I ready to be in a relationship? Am I ready to have kids and to really just devote myself and my time?

Join me for conversations about healing and growth, all from one of my favorite spaces, The Kitchen. Listen to the new season of the Overcombered podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, it's Jemma Spag, host of the Psychology of Your 20s. This September at the Psychology of Your 20s, we're breaking down the very interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like why we crave external validation. I find it so interesting that we are so quick to believe others' judgments of us and not our own judgment of ourselves. So according to this study, not being liked actually creates similar pain levels as

real life physical pain. Learn more about the psychology of everyday life and, of course, your 20s. This September, listen to the psychology of your 20s on the I, Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts. It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone, and there is help out there. The Good Stuff podcast, season two, takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a non-profit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join host Jacob and Ashley Schick as they

bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission. One Tribe, save my life twice. Welcome to Season 2 of the Good Stuff. Listen to the Good Stuff podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.