Stuff You Should Know - SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: Why was Titicut Follies banned?

Episode Date: June 27, 2025

Titicut Follies is a documentary made famous by its banning. But why was it banned? And what was it even about? Listen in to learn all you need to know about this infamous doc. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. The new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs,

book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here. Tell me how that feels to be a hot, considered a hot lesbian.

Quite an honor. You know what's funny? When you're actually more fluid with your sexuality, the swing goes from nobody gives a shit who you're sleeping with to you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you. And it's like, has nobody been paying attention to all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera? Hi, I've always been here. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey everybody, and welcome to the Summer Movie Playlist. Chuck here introducing today's show which is I think maybe the last one in the series on Tidakut Follies. So this is not, I guess we're ending on sort of a down note because this isn't some fun talk about a fun movie. It's some pretty serious talk about a pretty sad documentary. But it's a remarkable film in its own way and has its place in film history. So we thought it was a pretty good episode. We hope you enjoy it all over again.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Kind of went right after me. She's in the D. I said, hey, Jerry, in the south bathroom of Frontierland, above the toilet, I've left, I've taped a gun. Go shoot Mo Green. Oh my gosh. Go shoot Mo Green in the restaurant booth. Wow. No, Mo Green got it on the massage table. Oh, that's right.

The police commissioner or the police chief, he took it in the neck. Yeah, yeah's right. Oh, police commissioner or the police chief. He took it. Yeah. I can't believe I messed that up. He was tangential to the hit with the bathroom. I don't remember who he was trying to hit. That's right. I goofed that up.

Hey, shout out to, uh, wait, no, I'm not done sorting this out. Okay. Go ahead. Name all the hits in the Godfather. Go ahead. Uh, shout out to our pal and friend of the show, Kevin Pollack, because that made me think of the great, great show that is one of my favorite shows

called Better Things from the wonderful, talented Pamela Adlon. They are entering their final season and I watched the first episode the other night and Pollack, who plays her brother on the show, had a great line that I knew was improvised where he was getting in his car and I can't remember what they were talking about and he said, right in the eye like Mo Green. And I texted him immediately and I was like, right in the eye like Mo Green.

I was like, that was yours. And he went, oh yeah. He said that was improvised. It was very fun. It's always fun to be able to watch a TV show and text your pal that's on that TV show. Right, yeah. He's got the best parts. He just pops up in all the best stuff, you know?

Yeah, he's in Maisel. He's, I think, and I've talked to Pollock about this and he's like, yeah, I agree. I think he could star in a really great indie film. I just think he's a really great actor and he's great at comedy, but I think he's on top of that just a really, really great actor. Didn't he star in that Project Greenlight film? I don't know, did he? Which one? I'm pretty sure.

I think the first season. Oh boy, I don't remember those movies. I know that Shia LaBeouf, that was where he got his start. Is that right? Was he in one of those? The Battle of Shaker Heights or something? I think that might have been the one that Pollock was in. Was he in that?

I didn't remember that movie. But I mean a really good movie. I'm not sure the Project Greenlight movie is right. It was a cool show though. I dug it. Yeah, yeah. I'm surprised they hadn't brought that back in the iPhone filmmaking age. Yeah, it's a little surprising.

Who would bring it back though now? Ben and Matt could bring it back. I mean, that's who did it the first time, right? Sure, but I mean, are they still relevant? Aren't there two younger versions of them that could do it better? I don't know who the new Ben and Matt are. How about Wiz Khalifa and... Charlamagne the God.

Sure. Thank you. All right. Great. Anyway, Kevin Pollak's a great actor and a good dude. Yeah. Agreed. And probably somebody I would guess who's seen the movie that we're going to talk about

today. I would be really surprised if he hasn't seen it, just because I feel like if you Into movies if you're a movie maker if you are if you consider yourself a cinemafile If you want to get punch in the stomach You've probably seen today cut follies, right? Yeah, I mean this is one that I saw in film class in college It is one that you there's about a 50-50 chance that you will see this if you've seen it in film class in a college. People like Casey, our colleague Casey Pegram, no doubt is a Frederick Wiseman fan.

I'm sure if I texted him he'd be like, oh sure, Wiseman, yes. Although I found Titticutt Follies was not one of his greater works. Yeah, that sounds like Casey. God bless Casey. All-time greatest movie crush guest. But yeah, Fred Wisissman made this film. He was a law professor in his 30s and his 60s and made this documentary film about a mental institution,

specifically one for the criminally insane, is what they called it. And it was a very, you know, it was a movie that gained a lot of reputation as like the most disturbing film you've ever seen. And it's been banned in this many places and that kind of thing. But when you kind of peel it back,

it's just a very straight up sort of cinema verite documentary about a institution that needed to get their act together. Right. And that was kind of Wiseman's whole jam. Like he's made 48 films. I think he just turned 92 a couple months ago. Amazing. And starting in 1966, he made about a film a year.

Yeah. And he has his own style, like you said, cinema verite, which I feel like we should probably kind of just go ahead and explain, don you? Yeah go ahead. Go ahead film guy. Well cinema verite I mean what's the direct translation? Direct cinema. Yeah direct cinema and it's the idea that you kind of set a camera up and let it let life happen in front of it for whatever your subject is. You don't you don't do interviews, you don't do talking head shots, you don't you it's really just one good example is that documentary in the course now I can't think of it in the 70s about the American family that ran

on PBS that was so groundbreaking where they just set up a camera and followed this family and if you're thinking it sounds a lot like reality TV, I think in its purest form, reality TV can be this, but it really turned into something else entirely. Oh yeah, it's just so deeply manipulated by producers behind the scenes who tell them to do this or that or whatever. Yeah.

Cinema Verites would not wanna do that. They just shoot and hope also that people act like themselves, that's another thing. And one thing Frederick Wiseman, the guy who made Tittycut Follies, said like he believed that people basically acted like themself when the camera was around because people are in general lousy actors.

Yeah, we can attest to that. They're behaving like you would expect them to behave, so they're probably acting like they would without the cameras, especially in a cinema verite kind of setup because it's intrusive. There's a camera there, but it's not nearly as intrusive as like a camera on like some rig that's flying around. Like there's lighting people,

and a craft services table that's calling your name. It's just much less intrusive than that. It's minimally intrusive as far as filmmaking goes. And that's the point of it. Cause they wanna document reality without leading the viewer as much as possible from what I understand. Yeah, that's exactly it. And I love cinema verite documentaries especially.

And I also like sort of quasi cinema verite where there's a lot of like I don't mind interviews being put in there as long as there's a lot of just sort of watching life happen. It's really amazingly engrossing. There were these two filmmakers that I think inspired Weissman, Richard Leacock and Robert Drew, who in the early, I think in the 50s and early 1960s were kind of dabbling in cinema verite documentaries and they made one in particular called Mooney vs. Fowl,

which is about a high school football championship and Mooney and Fowl are the two coaches and I watched the trailer for that today I guess his I'm guessing it's his daughter that put this up on Vimeo along with some other like interviews with her dad Drew's daughter that it's really engrossing just to watch and especially because all you see, if you're a modern person in 2022 and you're like, what was life like in the 1950s? You don't get that from I Love Lucy and Dick Van Dyke.

Like those are great shows, but to be able to just sit in and take a peek at these high school football coaches and these people, the community in the stands and these players, like it's just so engrossing to me. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I really like it. Yeah, no, totally. But yeah, I feel like even, even if it isn't your cup of tea, you would,

like you said, be engrossed by it. I don't think there's any way to just be like, I don't know. Some people would probably find it dull. I'm sure there are, but it's, it's just, it is engrossing. I don't think there's any probably find it dull. I'm sure there are. But it's just, it is engrossing. I don't think there's any other way to universally describe it. Yeah. And Drew, I sent you that one little interview snippet. I don't know if you saw it. But he sort of was talking about being a new form of journalism. Where he talked about, you know, it's like a, you know, they're like, well, what is this

though? And he was like, well, it's like a play without a playwright or a movie without actors or journalism without opinions. And I was like, oh, well, that's interesting to say in the 1950s. Yeah, all the way back then. Yeah, but they saw it as, Lelach and I think Drew saw it more as a form of journalism. And I feel like that's what documentaries used to be. And that's changed a lot sometimes for the better. It can be all things, I guess, but it's what documentaries used to be and that's changed a lot sometimes

for the better. It can be all things, I guess, but it seems like documentaries used to be way more journalism and less big time entertainment. Yeah. What do you think about, how do you feel about recreations and documentaries? I think it can be cool if you have a good, like a new spin on it. Kind of like when The Kid Stays in the Picture came out, the documentary about the producer, what's his face?

Robert Evans? Yeah, Robert Evans. The Godfather? Yeah, exactly, full circle. They did those recreations through animation and this really cool style of animation that like was really engaging and awesome and like, recrees can be really cool

if you do it right I think. Or really bad if it's like some dumb cop show on TV. But those are kind of fun too. Yeah, you mean like the one headline news shows 100 episodes a day forensic files. I haven't seen it but if it's the recrees I'm thinking of where it's like you know they recreated murder I on like you got $500 to shoot this yes, that's exactly right Yeah, you're thinking of forensic files, but still if you watch enough of it, it'll really like your whole life will turn dark

Yeah, I'd be careful with the friends or everybody So should we go back and talk about Bridgewater State Hospital? Yeah, because it's the place where Frederick Wiseman showed up with his camera, with permission, as we'll see. And by the time he got there in 19... I think he shot in 1965? Maybe 1966. Yeah, 66. Okay. When he got there, it had been around for over a hundred years.

It didn't start out as a state hospital. It started out as a poor house, an almshouse, I think all the way back in 1854. Yeah, and it's interesting when you read these. It's disturbing, but when you read these old timey classifications in medicine or especially in mental health, where someone be, you know, the description of someone that might be put there might just be bad. That's one of the descriptions. Right. Like, they'd be on par with labeling them alcoholic or schizophrenia or something like

that. Yeah, but if you had an alcohol problem or you had legitimate mental health issues, or if you were pregnant maybe or blind or you had syphilis, you might have been put in this poor house in 1854. Right. In Massachusetts, by the way. Yeah. I don't know if we said that or not. So that's how it started out.

And then over time, they started adding criminals and focused more on criminals and the mentally ill. And then by the time 1895 rolled around, it became the state asylum for insane criminals at the state workhouse at Bridgewater. And then eventually it became known as Bridgewater State Hospital, I think by 1909. And then very crucially here, it was handed over from the State Board of Charity, because remember it started out as a poor house, over to the Massachusetts Bureau of Prison. So for all intents and purposes,

at least bureaucratically speaking, it is a place where the criminally insane, how they were termed in the 20th century, are held. Yeah. And there were some bad criminals in there. I mean, there were murderers. There were people who were convicted of cannibalism, of rape, of children, or just generally of

rape. So there were some bad dudes in there for sure. But then there were also, and this was sort of one of the saddest things about sort of that time in this country, those people were right alongside other people who either committed a very minor crime or maybe didn't commit a crime at all. And they were just quote unquote being held there temporarily, but that could stretch on into years. Yeah, there's still something today called civil commitment and it's basically that you

were being held not because of a crime or because of a minor crime and you maybe have even served your sentence but you're being held because you had been deemed mentally unfit to return to society even though maybe you didn't even start out like in a mental hospital, maybe you started out in jail and then you're just a troublemaker, they considered you a troublemaker in jail and you got sent to the hospital. At that point, your sentence was just, it just went away. It was you were there until a doctor decided you should be let out. And the problem was getting the attention of a doctor long enough to say,

oh, actually you're fine, you can let you out, was really difficult to do. And so it was a really desperate place, especially for people who didn't feel like they should be there, belong there, because after a while it seemed to exert its influence on your mind and your outlook. And it would bend you to to reflect it so

That you kind of needed to be there after a while even if you didn't start out that way Yeah, I mean anyone who's ever seen one Fleur of the Cuckoo's Nest is kind of Exactly that happens in the plot like people got worse at these places, right? And you mentioned the actual medical attention. President of the Massachusetts Bar Association at the time, Paul Tamburello, and big thanks to Livia for digging this up and putting this together for us. But he told the Harvard Crimson back then that of the 650 men held at the hospital at the time, actual medical staff were able to see less than half of them one

time a year for about 20 minutes. So other than that, you're like, well, then who was it if it wasn't medical staff? It was like prison guards, basically. Yes. And even then, when you did get that 20 minutes, you were confronted by a person or group of people who were going on the premise that everything you said came out of your mouth was loony. Right. And not based in reality or fact. No matter how well you put your case or stated your case or complained, like any show of emotion would just prove to them that you were meant to be in there for another year until they could hopefully see you

again and reevaluate you. Yeah, there was this one example Olivia found of, geez, it's hard to believe, Matteo Calicoci was arrested in 1927 at my daughter's age almost, seven years old, for stealing seven bucks from a grocery store, which is a pretty good take, 1927 by the way. And he was found incompetent to stay in trial and then sent to Kind of sent all around over the years to different institutions After he tried to escape in 1935 was eventually landed at Bridgewater And this was another one of those archaic terms was charged with bad habits And resisting authority and this seven-year-old eventually ended up here later in life,

but stayed there for 28 years and released in 1963. So that's just one example of how, like, sort of a small petty crime, but if you maybe have an attitude or you're a troublemaker as a kid, and you bounce around from place to place, you just might wind up here with no one advocating for you. This all made me think of like what families were doing but I guess at the time some families were kind of like maybe convinced themselves they were better off there or they didn't want to deal with the trouble. Or there were no family I don't

know. Yeah or their family was poor and had no influence over anybody, so they couldn't do anything about it. Very sad. Should we take a break? Yeah, I say we take a break and we'll come back with Wiseman and his tenure while he was at Bridgewater. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts.

Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving book talk theories, and obsessing over book to screen casts for years. And now I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character or cried at the last chapter or passed a book to a friend saying, you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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If you don't date, you must be frigid, whatever. And then the thing that gets added when you're actually more fluid with your sexuality is the swing goes to you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you. And exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you. And it's like, okay. And you know, I sort of looked around and was like, has nobody been paying attention to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera? You know, maybe not in front of you off camera, but hi, I've always been here.

Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I think everything I might have dropped in 95 has been labeled the golden years of hip hop. It's Black Music Month and we need to talk is tapping in. I'm Naila Simone, breaking down lyrics, amplifying voices and digging into the culture that shaped the soundtrack of our lives. My favorite line on there was my son and my daughter going to be proud when they hear my old tapes.

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["We Need to Talk"] So Frederick Wiseman had an interesting origin story as a filmmaker. He went to law school at Yale, supposedly to get out of the Korean War draft. But then when he graduated, he still ended up getting drafted anyway. And he was in there for almost two years. Yes, kind of after the war, but yeah. Yeah.

I still, I'll bet he was not happy about being drafted either way. Sure. So he, he went, he I guess went to Korea for a couple of years and then after the army, he and his wife, what is her name? Zipporah Bat Shaw, great name. Yep. She was a law professor as well. They went to Paris, lived for a couple of years and then decided they needed to move

back so they moved back to the Boston area. But while there, Fred Weisman got into filmmaking. He started just shooting stuff with a little eight-millimeter camera at about the time that Cinéma Vérite was being developed in France. That's right. So, like you said, he came back from France, started teaching law at BU, and sort of had that filmmaking bug still. So he bought the rights to a book, a novel called The Cool World about poverty in Harlem. And he hired a woman named Shirley Clark, sorry,

to direct it. And it was a very small, I don't think it was much of a big film at all, but it was a very small sort of indie film at the time, which is to say it was a very small, I don't think it was much of a big film at all, but it was a very small sort of indie film at the time, which is to say it was probably not seen much. But Weissman was like, hey, like if Shirley Clark can do this thing, I can do this thing. And I don't like law school, I don't like teaching law. And one of the things he did because he didn't love teaching law was take his class on a lot of field trips, I guess, just to mix things up. And they used to go to Bridgewater. And after a few visits, he was like, wait a minute, I think everything kind of came

together. His love of filmmaking, his cinema verite kind of becoming popular and his interest in that, and then his interest, disinterest in law and interest in Bridgewater. So he had this idea to make this film there. Yeah. So as we'll see later, this is kind of crucial. He got permission to show up. He said many times in later interviews, Bridgewater is not the kind of place you just kind of parachute in at night,

do all your filming, and then creep away at dawn with all of your footage. Like he had to get extensive permission from- Sounds like he's done that before though, just kind of cool. Yeah, we've done that before too in grocery stores, remember? Oh, that's right. So he got permission from the Lieutenant Governor, he got permission from the Department of Corrections head, he got permission of the Superintendent of Bridgewater.

They all knew he was there, and they would have figured out eventually anyway because he spent 29 days filming in Bridgewater, they all knew he was there. And they would have figured out eventually anyway, because he spent 29 days filming in Bridgewater. And he would just do his cinema verite style, where he would just walk around and just film stuff. Film whatever he could, just film, film, film. And I saw something where he said that for his documentaries, he films anything from like 75 hours at a minimum, Chuck.

Oh wow. To 250 hours. And then he goes through it all and edits all the stuff he likes. And then after like month eight of editing, he'll start piecing it together into like a arc, a story arc. Wow, which boiled down in this case

to 83 minutes of a movie. Yeah. And the name Titicut Follies comes from, I think Titicut was a Native American name, I would guess somewhere in the region. I didn't really pinpoint that. I think for the Bridgewater area, that's what they called it. The follies were, the film opens up with a musical performance by the, I guess they were inmates with the song, Strike Up the Band, where they're

all dressed the same. And you can see quite a few clips on YouTube, but as Livia points out, like Weissman has always been really guarded with how his films are exhibited. And so I don't think you can just like go YouTube this thing up and watch the whole thing still even. Adam Lassner I did last night. Oh, on YouTube? Yeah.

Oh, okay. It's not on YouTube, no it was on Vimeo. Oh, interesting. All right. I wonder if that's like some sort of pirated upload. It was, it's a, it was a VHS copy put on lawn. So I'm thinking yeah, it was pirated. Did you watch it all? Yeah, I did. I watched, I'd never seen it before. I was familiar with it.

The title, I had not a lot of idea of'd never seen it before. I was familiar with it. The title, I had not a lot of idea of what it was about, but yeah, it was certainly striking. It was really something. Like it had ups and downs and highs and lows, and I think it was everything Wiseman wanted me to feel about it. It was pretty great. Yeah, I mean, it is great. Even at 83 minutes, it's tough to sit through the whole thing because I think by

its nature, cinema verite can be. Taxing. Yeah, even while engrossing, it can be pretty taxing. That's the best way to put it. But it's also obviously in this case, it's not about a high school football championship. It's literally watching these people. I mean, I guess we should just talk about some of the scenes maybe. Yeah, and a lot of the people are gonna go back

and be like, Justin, this was great. Just bear with us everybody. Yeah, I mean, hey, you're a cinephile. That's right. Punch me in the face. No, the stomach. Face says way too hostile. Stomach's got a little bit of friendliness left in it.

Yeah, like Houdini style. Right, yeah, that'll do. Well, one of the scenes that Livia picked out that certainly stands out in my mind too, and I think you can actually find parts of this one on YouTube, is a guard, I guess was he dry shaving him? It looked like dry shaving, or was it a wet shave? No, they put like shaving cream on them and everything. Oh, okay. And everybody seems to characterize it as like really rough, like forceful,

kind of almost like he's being tortured with the shave. It was fast. It was fast. Yeah. I didn't, it didn't look like it hurt the patient. So it didn't, and it didn't seem like the guy was trying to torture him. It just seemed like he was being very quick and efficient and he does like cut him at the edge of one of his mouth, one of the edges of a corner of his

mouth, sorry. Right. So he's bleeding a little bit but he doesn't seem like he doesn't seem in distress at all while he's shaving him. At the very least he's not in distress because of the shaving. Right. But then what happened? Well, there are these at least two guards, right? And this inmate by the way, his name Jim, he's probably the most famous character in the, in the movie. Yeah. Or patient, I should say. He's not a character.

He has, he's very, it's easy to get a rise out of Jim. As hard as Jim tries to not let you get a rise out of him, if you press his buttons, he's going to like yell, he's going to get mad, he's going to try to contain himself. And there were a couple of guards that were guarding Jim while he was being like, like washed and shaved and all that stuff, who just spent the entire scene trying to get a rise out of him by saying, like, why is your room so dirty, Jim? Is your room going to be clean tomorrow, Jim?

You've got to keep your room clean, Jim. Just ceaselessly and incessantly. And we see eventually when they take him back to his room, it's totally empty. There's a window. There's nothing in the room. And in fact, Jim is kept naked in his room. So there's no way for Jim, for Jim's room to be dirty, and also for no way for Jim to keep his room clean. These guards, you realize, were just trying to get a rise out of Jim,

and they do over and over again. And it's really hard and sad to watch Jim, like, like just get upset. He's trying so hard to just not let these guys get to him because he knows what they're doing he's fully aware of what they're doing and he just can't help himself probably like five different times he re he reacts and then tries to regain his composure again yeah it's almost as if they're trying to drive him mad yeah and they're also doing I saw somebody describe it as they're they're goading him with the kind of like,

bored desensitization or desensitivity of somebody who does this like every day and know exactly what he's gonna do. And there's no fun in it anymore, but they just kind of do it to amuse themselves as much as they can from it. Which is even worse, you know? Because they're just torturing this poor guy mentally.

Yeah, and we should point out too that, you know, Weisman showed scenes like this, but it wasn't, it wasn't like a 100% indictment on the people who worked there because he did also show some parts where there was some care taken. I mean, what was your, like, I haven't seen the whole thing since college. So what was your net-net on that? So I think the thing that I got from it was that Wiseman treats everybody as human and equal in that he's not expressing like empathy necessarily. He's not trying to even get you to, to empathize or sympathize.

He's not trying to get you to form an opinion. He's just showing you what he found. Right. And if he is trying to get you to form an opinion, it's so obtuse that it's tough to put your finger on in retrospect. Maybe, maybe you respond exactly the way he wanted you to, but he's not, very rarely does he like hammer you with it. So I feel like he just treats everybody the same. Like there's a guy, there's a patient who talks

about all of the children he's raped and he knows that it's bad. He knows that it's like, that like what he's doing is wrong and he can't help himself. But there's like, Wiseman makes no effort to make this man seem despicable or evil or anything like that. He might as well be talking about like a car he's thinking about buying for how Wiseman portrays it. And so like, if he's treating that guy equal, he's definitely treating like the guards

and the clinical staff and everybody equally. But I think more than that, he just turns the camera on and lets them behave as they're going to behave. He lets them present themselves to you rather than him trying to manipulate it so that you see what Wiseman wants you to see. Yeah, I mean, that's the purest form of cinema verite, which, you know, it's interesting how conditioned we are

to even hearing an ominous musical score during a scene where a guy might talk about crimes like that. And when all that's stripped away, like, it can be like more unsettling, I think, than hearing that creepy score. It reminds me, and this is certainly not the same thing, but we went to a Cleveland Indians baseball game one time when Emily's family still lived in Ohio and it was this throwback game where they didn't do any modern things at all. And you don't really think about that.

You're like, when it was a baseball game, what do they do? Like all they had was the organ player and the announcer going, you know, now up to bat, number five, so and so, the announcer going, you know, now up to bat number five, so-and-so, so-and-so. Awesome, man. Done. They didn't play a song when they came up that the batter picked out. They didn't have the, the home Depot hammer and nail and shovel chase each

other around the field between innings and a race they didn't, you know, there's you don't realize when you go to a pro sports game of all the extra boy Especially an NBA game sure all the extra stuff that's there until it's gone and it was really really weird I liked it. Yeah, family was like I'm bored And I was like, I think this is kind of cool Did they have the shorty jacks at least? Oh, yeah, I mean they sold this stuff and it wasn't throwback prices of course but it was it's weird when you're so conditioned though kind of like with film just to background noise and just sort of the things that we hear in movies lighting or a camera move or you

know cinema verite is all about sort of just locking that camera down or hand holding it sometimes. When all that artifice is gone, it can have a reverse effect that all the artifice has, like you're using it for. Yeah, and I think in addition to what is added to kind of manipulate you emotionally or unconsciously, there's also a lot that's removed, a lot of reality that's removed, like the background noise. If they put background noise in, it's Foley artists. It's not the actual background noise that was there when they were filming. That's not what Wiseman does.

This film is replete with disturbing background noise, like televisions that are on that you can't see, other people's conversations that you can't make out what they're saying. The lighting he uses is only the lighting at Bridgewater. He doesn't use any of his own light. It's all whatever is called available light. And yeah, when you just kind of watch it, you're like, this is just like looking in on real life, which makes what you're seeing all the more disturbing. Because in addition to almost being there, you almost feel guilty, especially if you have half a conscience of witnessing the stuff

that you're seeing because you're seeing some of these people like Jim when he's taken back to his cell after those guards got a rise out of him while he was being shaved. He's naked, fully naked, stomping around, basically throwing a tantrum, trying, you can tell he's trying to calm himself down. This is how he's like getting out his anger. And Wiseman just sits there and films the whole thing. And you're forced to watch as the viewer,

I saw somebody put it, it's basically like, you're the one standing in the doorway, even after the guards have left, you're still standing there watching this man in one of the, probably one of the several worst points of his recent life, just gawking at him basically. And that's the hard part of it for sure. Yeah, or you know, at the other end of the spectrum, there's a scene with a guy named Vladimir. And this guy is very lucid, and he's speaking very clearly about,

you know, I think my, I've deteriorated since I've been here. I think all this noise that you're hearing, all these TVs that are always turned on full blast, it's sort of driving me crazy. And I would like to go back to prison, where I actually could work out in a gym and I could take classes. And this medication that they're giving me is making me worse.

Like I feel that it's harming me. And when he's, you know, when the guards take him out of the room, then there's a scene of the clinicians like discussing things. And it's sort of like, sounds like we need to up his medication and his tranquilizers because he's paranoid. So when you see something like that, it's sort of the other end of the spectrum from Jim,

equally disturbing, but part of the beauty of this and the rawness of this film is like, these people are all in here together. Yeah. It's never lost on you. His is a particularly sad case. Yeah.

Because you can tell, like, no, he's with it. This guy, he knows what he's saying. He's not trying to manipulate. He's pleading his case in a logical way. He's trying so hard not to get worked up. How would you not get worked up when you're pleading your case to be released from a mental institution, from somebody who's just taking you as nuts you know, nuts. So why should you be listened to? There's even one of the

medical staff at that meeting after he leaves the room and they're discussing him. She says, what did she say? She's like, if you take his basic premise as true, then everything he says from that is totally logical. But of course his basic premise is total hogwash or whatever she says, something like that. I'm paraphrasing. Just dismiss. So it's like that guy never had a chance. He just wasted his breath.

He just like, they were never going to listen to him. And it's just the same. Like Red and Shawshank. Yeah. Yeah. Well, was he not supposed to be there? He was supposed to be there, wasn't he? Well, yeah. But every time he came up for parole, he would plead his case.

They would deny it. And then finally, in the end, he was like, you know, it doesn't matter what I say in here, you're not going to let me out anyway. That's my Morgan Freeman, by the way. That sounded a little more like Boss Hogg on Tranquilizers. What? Yeah, that was Boss Hogg sedated. Oh, man.

Let's hear it again. No, I can't. Maybe Jerry can edit that part. I can't ever do my Morgan Freeman again. One of the great voices. But yeah, he basically says, you know, institutionalize. You're not going to let me out no matter what I say. say and of course that's when they let him out because it's a Dramatic film and with a great wonderful happy ending not like to the cut follies

No One other thing that I think we should point out to for people who haven't seen the movie like we know Vladimir's name and Jim's name Just because it comes up like in discussion. They're calling him Jim or somebody addresses Vladimir as Vladimir. There's no Chiron at the bottom of the screen says Vladimir or Jim. There's no one explaining how Jim got here or what Vladimir did. There's no nothing. Nothing is explained.

It's just here's a scene, here's another just, here's a scene, here's another scene, here's another scene, here's another scene. Nothing necessarily leads into anything else. There's one part that see that Wiseman says he regrets because it was so he calls it ham-fisted. Where there's, it's really hard to watch. It is. The main doctor, the main clinician,

who's a recurring character, whose name we have no idea who it is. Right. If you just watch the movie. He force feeds a patient who's stopped eating and through with a nasogastric tube stuffed on his nose all the way into his stomach. And this guy is just stoically taking this. Like he's decided he is not going to eat they even give him a choice. They're like, you can drink the soup or we're gonna force feed you.

And he's like, you're gonna have to force feed. But I don't even think he says anything. So there's a force feeding scene. You watch an emaciated man who's starving himself, force fed. And he intercut that part with scenes from the man's preparation for burial. Right.

To kind of show like, you know, he didn't make it. He was successful in ending his own life through starvation. And then also, I think what Wiseman was trying to get across was that he was, you know, he's really being cared for. He's given like a decent burial and like, I think eight, he has eight pallbearers from the institution. And he's like treated very well compared, especially to this, this force feeding through a tube down his nose. Um, and Wiseman thought that was a little ham fisted.

That is, that is the most cinematic part of the entire movie. Nothing else is anywhere remotely like that. It's all just seen, seen, seen, seen, seen, and like no explanation of who these people are or what they are trying to say. All right. Should we take a break? Yeah. All right. We'll take our second break and be back right after this. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.

I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving book talk theories, and obsessing over book to screen casts for years.

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You know what's funny is you do this weird math. Like if you're a woman dating men, nobody wants to talk to you about your sexuality. They just want to either say like you're a prude or a slut, you know, if you date too much, they criticize you. If you don't date, you must be frigid, whatever. And then the thing that gets added when you're actually more fluid with your sexuality is the swing goes to you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you. And it's like, okay. And you know, I sort of looked around and was like, has nobody been paying attention to like all the hot girls

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and digging into the culture that shaped the soundtrack of our lives. My favorite line on there was, my son and my daughter gonna be proud when they hear my old tapes. Now I'm curious, do they like rap along now? Yeah, because I bring him on tour with me and he's getting older now too. So his friends are starting to understand what that type of music is.

And they're starting to be like, yo, your dad's like really the goat. Like he's a legend. So he gets it. What does it mean to leave behind a music legacy for your family? It means a lot to me. Just having a good catalog

and just being able to make people feel good Like that's what's really important and that's what stands out is that our music changes people's lives for the better So the fact that my kids get to benefit off of that. I'm really happy or my family in general Let's talk about the music that moves us to hear this and more on how music and culture collide Listen to we need to talk from the black effect podcast network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So before we talk about the sort of court cases and whether or not this film could be banned or exhibited, it's interesting you talk about like, it's just scene, scene, scene, scene.

But on the flip side of that, it is like such a carefully curated edit from all those hundreds of hours of footage down to 83 minutes. And that's one of the things that Weissman sort of talked about was he didn't, apparently he didn't, I don't know if he came around, but he didn't even like the term cinema verite

because he felt it sounded too much like you were just shooting stuff and putting it in front of people. And he said, I am manipulating people, but it's through the edit. So while you may not think that, I mean, I guess he was a master at it because you probably shouldn't feel manipulated, but he's still putting together that careful edit, you know?

It's interesting. He is a master at it and it's pretty remarkable. This was his first film and he was that masterful at it. Yeah. So I said earlier that it was crucial that he had gotten permission to film, not only from the lieutenant governor and the superintendent of Bridgewater, but also from everyone he shot. He got either written permission from them or verbal permission, audio visual, I guess, on camera, them giving him permission to use them in his film. So he was covered up in permission.

And don't forget he was a law professor too. And when the movie first came out, when he finished, he showed it to the superintendent of Bridgewater and to the lieutenant governor. They both apparently liked it according to Wiseman. But it wasn't until the movie came out into wider release at the very beginning, I think New York Film Festival or something like that. Yeah. And people started responding by saying like,

this is barbaric, this treatment at Bridgewater. What's wrong with the state of Massachusetts that they suddenly turned on the film and Wiseman had on his hands what would come to become a banned film. Yeah. So one of the central players here is Elliott Richardson, who was that lieutenant governor you referenced at the time, had loftier political aspirations, so when it came time to run for an office higher than that, tried to suppress this film, thinking it would, you know,

count against him. And it became sort of like, Olivia calls it a political tool. That's exactly what it became. And what, and Richardson would end up accusing Weissman of double crossing the state. And it all sort of hinged on the idea, not like, oh, you showed these awful things, but it hinged on the idea of permissions and privacy was sort of the legal framework of it because the argument was, sure, you might have gotten the permission from these men but they are in no state to give real permission. And so there were a series of court cases over the years that sort of debated this, like for many, many years.

In 68, there was a judge, a Superior Court judge named Harry Callis who found that it breached privacy. And this was interesting though, because I get that as a legal basis for argument, but this judge said he kind of attacked the filmmaking process and said it's just a hodgepodge of sequences with no narrative and said each viewer is left to his own devices as to what's being portrayed and in what context. And in the meantime, Wiseman's over there going, doh-ay! That's what cinema verite is. But I thought that was like, this judge just said you should destroy, not should, like

ordered it to be destroyed. Yeah, he also called it a nightmare of ghoulish obscenities and said the negative has to be burnt. Very judgy judge. Yeah. And of course, Wiseman was like, well, I'm not burning my negative. I'm going to fight this and appeal it. Oh, sure.

That case, by the way, was the first one in Massachusetts history where a court affirmed that a right to privacy exists. Yeah. It had never been affirmed in a court case and it was established in that case. So it was not cut and dried though, because Weisman has a First Amendment right to freedom of expression. So it became freedom of expression versus freedom of privacy, or right to privacy, I should say.

I think the ACLU got involved and they submitted an amicus brief that basically said, we think that this film has value, but to a very limited number of people, specifically lawyers, judges, law students, medical students, psychiatrists, people in those fields should be able to see this and that is about it. And so that kind of became the ruling shortly after that initial, you need to burn the negatives on appeal. That's what they came up with. Yeah.

And so for a number of years after that, for those reasons, it was shown in like film class. It was shown in medical schools. It was shown in the library. Yeah, it was shown in medical schools. It was shown- In the library? Yeah, it was shown in libraries. That was a great place to see something like this. Or in different institutions would show this and say, this is what not to do. You can't do stuff like this. Yeah.

There was a belief, and this was sort of through the 70s. And then in the 80s, some attorneys got involved that said there were some suicides at Bridgewater. In the mid to late 80s, there were some class action lawsuits that followed by patients, where the attorneys said they could draw a direct line basically between a patient dying by suicide and the fact that this film wasn't shown. Like it should be allowed to be shown for these reasons. Yeah, like, had it been shown, there would have been a public outcry for more reforms,

and that wouldn't have led, you know, those reforms might have prevented the suicides at Bridgewater. And so Wiseman said that he never gave up on the film being released to a wider audience, and he saw that that was a good time to bring this up again. And it actually worked out. He got a judge to basically say like, okay, this is a, yes, you should be able to show this, but we need to blur the faces of the men out.

And Wiseman said, that's impossible. This is film. It's not video. And the judge said, work with me here, man. Right. He said, also, it'll artistically ruin my film. Sure. But you remember when we did that one, Gorilla's filming in the supermarket, we ended up having to go beg and blur every single thing in the supermarket out,

except for us. Kind of screwed it up a little bit. I could see where he's coming from, right? And so he appealed again, and finally they said, you know what, not a single inmate at Bridgewater and none of their families has ever filed a formal objection to this film being shown. So how about this? Just show it. It's unbanned officially by the early 90s. Right. That was in 91 with Judge Andrew Gilmeyer of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. And then after that it was still, because Wiseman is, like I said earlier, very picky

about how his films are exhibited. And so it wasn't like it was just everywhere. I think PBS aired it in 93 in full. You could always buy the DVD from him, from his website. Or if there was a film festival or a film class, like I said, when I saw it was in college film class from a VHS tape that the professor owned, probably bought it from Weissman. And that's sort of how it lived its life.

I mean, it's interesting that this, like, this still is a relevant topic in a relevant film and is being talked about today, like in 2022. I think in 2017 he even tried to, or I think he successfully finally got it on a streaming service called Canopy with a K, which is also kind of through the library system, which is awesome. Yeah, you can watch it for free if you sign up for a Canopy account with your library card number. Yeah. You can go watch, I think all of Wiseman's films,

all 48, which is pretty great. But there seems to have been some direct effects of the film on Bridgewater, but still, from what it sounds like, there's still a long way to go with Bridgewater too. Yeah, I think they made a lot of strides and then they found even as recently as this year that they were using what they call chemical restraints,

basically just doping people up more than they said they were doing. So this is ongoing there. And then Weissman, like you said, made 48 films and they had names like hospital or high school. And it's just sort of that very bare bones cinema verite look at a single topic that's sort of been his bread and butter.

I think it's a really cool thing. Yeah, it is really cool. He's just fascinated with institutions. Although he even says he has no idea how they work. And I think he's even said he's not quite sure he understands his film himself. Yeah, which is pretty awesome to say Yeah, and Zippor films is named after his wife Who passed away a couple years ago at the age of 90 and he's like you said still going strong

Yeah, his what's his latest one? I'm City Hall. Yeah about Boston City Hall. Yeah, it came out in 2020 pretty cool Yeah, about Boston City Hall. Yeah, it came out in 2020. Pretty cool. Well, if you want to know more about Titticutt Follies, you should probably go watch it. But be warned, it is really rough, even though it is great in the term of a cinemafile would use it.

How about that? A cinemafile. I always add an extra syllable. So that, of course, means it's time for listener mail. syllable. So that of course means it's time for listener mail. I'm gonna call this follow-up on the effect of altruism. One of our favorite things is when we talk about a topic and someone from that topic gets in touch and is a listener. Yeah, for real. And that's what happened in this case with Grace Adams. Hey guys, we are so excited that you covered effective altruism and you did so wonderfully

and graces with Giving What We Can. Giving What We Can would love to give your listeners a free book on Effective Altruism if you include this link in the show notes, which we don't have, but we'll just say it here. People can opt to have a free book sent to them, including The Precipice by Toby Ord, anywhere in the world. We love sending out books and things. It's a great way for people to engage more with the ideas, wishing you all the best.

From a big personal fan, Grace Adams. And I should have made this into a bit.ly. Should I do that real quick? Yeah. All right. So you just talk to people while I do that. Oh, okay. Well, hey everybody.

I mean, we could edit this together, but. Toby Ord wrote in and said the same thing too, but he also sent us well wishes and said we did a good job on the Effective Altruism episode, which I thought was pretty good because I like to think we're fairly fair-handed with it. We weren't too over-the-top subjective, don't you think? I think so, although we did get one email from someone that's like, kind of acted like we didn't point out any of the downsides, which I disagree with. I disagree with that too.

But anyway, how's that Bitly coming, Chuck? Okay, my friend, I am done. I have the Bitly. If you go to bit.ly slash sysk give, you can get your free book. Yes, pretty great. Free books on effective altruism and free books by Toby Ord on existential risks, which, I mean, come on. If you want to get in touch with us like Grace from GiveWell did, we would love to hear from

you. You can send us an email. Whether you want to give away free books or not, it's okay. You don't have to. Send it off to stuffpodcasts at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. into your favorite shows.

Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. The new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off.

Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart Radioio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler,

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