Stuff You Should Know - The Delightful History of Pubs

Episode Date: April 7, 2022

In today's episode, Chuck and Josh dive into the wonderful history of the public house. So pull up a stool, grab a pint and have a listen.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and Jerry's here on mute. And this is Stuff You Should Know. G'day. Why are you doing an Australian greeting? There's pubs in Australia. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Okay. Did you, I had a really great pub experience in Manchester. I know, you told me about it. Was it the one? I can't remember the name of it. The one where Morrissey or the Smiths had that photo shoot? Or was I just in the same story? No, probably the same story. That was outside of the Salford Lads Club. Yeah. Very famous photo. But I wandered inside a genuine old school, like basement, cask, ale, pub, in Manchester. And it was great and authentic. And on such a lean,

like I've never seen a floor this slanted in my life that wasn't like House of Tricks. Oh, I remember those. Isn't that in the end of Greece? I don't know. I haven't seen Greece in a long time. Because I need a man. I don't remember that. Did they go into a leany house? Yeah, I believe they do or a bouncy house or really something like that. Yeah. Yeah. This one is so leany that you felt like if you were in the front of the pub and put your pint on a table, it may actually slide. Wow. It was really leany. So the point of going to this pub was to get so bent that everything straightened out for you.

I don't know. No, I had a couple of beers. It was just great. And I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff. Really old places and having a beer in an old place. Yeah, I love it. Definitely. Yeah, I had a couple of nice pub experiences too. I went to one I can't remember. It was in Dublin, right down from the Guinness factory. I don't remember the name of it, but it was super old. It was a really old pub. And I wish I could remember the name. But shout out to the that pub that I can't remember. But I'm with you. And I think it's not just us who appreciate pubs for their hominess. And Chuck, I believe that what you went to would be called a local, a traditional independent English pub. Yeah, a neighborhood pub.

And pub, we should say, is short for public house to the few people who didn't know that. Now you do. And these things are so pubs are so essential to England and Ireland, as we'll find too, that the essayist Hilaire Bellach wrote that when you have lost your inns, meaning pubs for all intents and purposes, drown your empty selves for you have lost the last of England. Hmm. I love it. Yeah. So where do we get pubs? From the Romans. It is true. Before there was a United Kingdom and there was Roman occupation. We're talking about 43 to 410 CE. There was, we talked a lot about Roman roads and how their big network of roads and that was one of their big accomplishments, linking places together. And so along these routes,

they had what were called Tabernay, T-A-B-E-R-N-A-E, what we know as taberns. And it was what you think. It's like a place where a traveler can stop, have a little food, and these establishments have wine. Yeah, because the Romans were not so for wine. It loved us. Wine us. Pretty much. Wine oh forever. Right. So the way that you would know what house to stop them, because this isn't a time where they were designing shopping malls and strip centers, like the tavern looked a lot like everybody else's house because it probably was somebody's house. But if you were new in town traveling along this Roman road and you wanted to figure out which place was the actual tavern, you would just look for some grapevines hanging over the door.

That was basically the universal symbol among Roman-occupied areas for a tavern. But when they pushed further and further west, when they got to England and occupied it, they said, there's not that many grapevines here. What else can we use? I mean, they started using bushes. Right. And we'll talk a little bit all over the place about the interesting pub names, because that's kind of one of the fun things about pubs is their interesting names. And if you see pubs named the bush or the bull in the bush or the holly bush, it's sort of thrown back to this old tradition where they would hang stuff above the door to let you know, come on in and have a drink. Right. Pretty great. That's kind of what

all pub lore circles back to is how awesome their names are. Yeah. I agree. So what happened to the Romans, Chuck? Did they stick around and is there a Roman president of the UK today? No, they left and the Anglo-Saxons took over and they liked to drink ale. Yeah. They said it's not to this wine stuff. We were just pretending all this time to like wine while the Romans were here. We actually like ale and the Anglo-Saxons, I didn't realize this. I was like, okay, what's the difference between the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans and the Vikings? And apparently there's plenty of differences. The Normans, I guess, came up to conquer and I think 1066 from the south, from France, but they originally still were Germanic.

I think they had some Norse people mixed in. So like I said, okay, well who lived in England originally? And apparently it was the Celtic Britons. Okay. So this is the first group that came in after the Romans. So the Romans came and conquered the Celtic Britons. They left, and I don't think I'm saying that right. I think I'm saying it like I have a tick or something like that. Britons. So then the Romans subsequently left and the Anglo-Saxons came in and replaced them and the Anglo-Saxons were the ones who said, let's all start drinking some ale. That's right. And ale is not beer. Ale didn't have hops, which is the big differentiator there. Hops will come along later and people still like that ale, but people also like the beer.

For sure. I think it was the Dutch who said, hey, you should try these hops, man. They'll knock your socks off. And when they did in the 15th century, the Britons said, let's do this. We're okay with ale or we're okay with hops from now on. We're like beer. They said it didn't knock my socks off because I'm wearing sock garters. Right. But they loved ale so much that it was like a part of their like their meals. Whenever they drank something, they usually drank ale. And I think we talked about this in the beer episode. I don't remember. Bars maybe?

Maybe. But if you were a housewife, a husband wife, you were probably in charge of making ale for your family. And if you were really good at making ale, the town might know about it and they might come and try to buy some of your excess ale. And you might end up supplying ale to thirsty travelers who pass through. And the next thing you know, you're running what's known as the ale house. That's right. They were called ale wives or Brewsters. And if you want to indicate like the Romans hung the grapevines and bushes and things above their door, they would have an ale staker and ale pole which sort of from this drawing Dave sent, Dave Ruiz helped us with this. Did he just give Dave a woo? Sure. It looks sort of like a witch's broom. It was a big stick with branches

tied to the end. And they would hang it out a window or above the doorway like a flagpole over the doorway kind of sticking out of the house. And that meant come on in and have a drink. Yeah. And you would like this is, it was really important to the Anglo-Saxons and other subsequent groups that kind of came over and took over England to say like, the hospitality is really, really important. And they actually started to kind of regulate it a little bit in part because ale houses became so popular that they're like, this is something we can tax, but also we don't want any kind of social issues arising from this. So I think it was King Edward the Peaceful who started passing like the first laws that regulated drinking establishments

in England. Yeah. And he said, hey, how about one of these in every town or village? And he said, and everyone went, okay, I guess we can live with that. But I don't think it was just to limit it. I think it was also to make sure that there was at least one in every town that every town had one too. Like there were probably towns that didn't have it. And they're like, you need to get on the trolley. Yeah, some people were probably like, hooray. And then towns that had more than one went, oh, okay. Yeah, we got to flip a coin. Yeah, exactly. And then he also moved on to say, and maybe we shouldn't drink as much as people. And everyone went, wait a minute. Like we've been drinking ale for breakfast, literally. And he said, how about this thing?

It's called a peg tankard. And it's a it's a big like two liter drinking vessel that has these pegs, vertical pegs, and you're only allowed to drink down to the next peg. And then you got to pass it along to your friend. And then they can drink down to the next peg. And if you drink past your peg, then you're taxed a penny. Yeah, there's a super hygienic setup. Yeah, and two liters. I mean, that's not that much. Well, I don't mean for like per person, but like, I think about two liters of soda, how many people were sharing that? Sure, sure. I mean, like, two, three, four. All right. So a liter is 32 ounces. Yeah, so it's about two pints. No, pints, 16 ounces. Yeah, you're right. So yeah, it was about two pints. No, I'm thinking of a court. I think a court and a liter

are pretty close. Regardless, you're right. It's not that much. It's a couple of forties. Oh, man, I haven't had a 40 since college. It's been a while. Did you ever drink forties at St. Ide's? I had St. Ide's. Ellie Smith says that great song, St. Ide's Heaven. My jam was not forties, but I would, for a little while in college, I would drink Schlitz or, and I know I mentioned this before, the Mickey's Big Mouth. Yeah, sure. But I can't imagine drinking that swill now. That's what I was going to say. Even at the time, St. Ide's was terrible stuff. Yeah. I never understood. Even among the malt liquors that came in 40 ounce bottles, St. Ide's was gross. What was the eight ball? Old English. Old English, yes. I think that may

have been tied with St. Ide's. It was all pretty gross. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it really was. The early drinking days are just nothing to be proud of. No. It's like you call this orange juice. You call this a Cape Cod. Right. But now we're more refined in our old age and we drink very tasteful small cocktails. Sure. Forty ounces at a time. I've actually dialed it back to almost nothing these days. Oh, yeah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Get better sleep. Yeah, and better next days, really. But yeah, better sleep too. Yeah. It's one of the next days to me. That's why I was just like, this is not, this is not okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. As you get older, then you've got to kind of dial that back. Didn't you say you don't get affected by it very much? Well, like hangovers?

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't really get that hungover. And if I do, then I willingly wait into those waters. Oh, I see. Yeah. You know, like I know it's coming. I'm like, yeah. You knew you were gonna have, yeah. It's just one of those nights. But yeah, those are a few and far between these days. You schedule a blood transfusion for the next morning. No, no, no. Should we take a break? Yeah, let's take a break and then we'll go to the Emerald Isle right after this. All right, let's do it. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough, or you're at the end of the road. Ah, okay, I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would

Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep, we know that, Michael. And a different hot sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life step by step. Not another one. Kids, relationships, life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen. So we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app,

Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Are we in Ireland? We are in Ireland. They got pubs here. Yep. Um, so they had their own kind of pub culture, despite the fact that the Anglo Saxons never made it into Ireland, which I didn't realize. Um, but they, they devised their own kind of, um, system of hospitality as well. Like the Anglo Saxons did that said, Hey, if you got people coming around your town, you need to make sure that you can take care of them. That's right. And what is the law pronounced? How is it pronounced? Brehon. Okay. B-R-E-H-O-N. Is that what you're going to go with? Yeah, it runs with Breton. I'm sure we're pronouncing that wrong. Uh, but that was sort of the system of like legal hospitality that you were talking about from, uh, originally

from the sixth century. Uh, and, you know, it was, it was a lot, it comes a lot, but it definitely put a lot of emphasis on hospitality and kind of like in England, they said, Hey, uh, every town has to have a hostel, uh, which is also sort of, uh, code for pub, but you could spend the night, I guess. I can. Um, yeah. But this is like, I didn't quite understand this. It said it had to be located at a main crossroads with four doors open in each direction. Is that symbolic or did they literally being like, uh, don't make them walk around the corner to get in? I don't know. I really don't, maybe travelers were generally dumber than they are today back then. I'm not sure, but and they could only move in straight lines. That's what I said. Right. But, um, additionally under

the law, you had to have an, you couldn't have an empty cauldron. It always had to be ready to go with ale. You had to have, uh, on hand raw meats and cooked meats ready to serve. Also animals ready to slaughter. And that anytime, uh, travelers showed up 24 hours a day, you had to serve them. That was just the hospitality was that emphasized. It was almost like the local chamber of commerce was in charge of writing the laws for that Brehan law. Yeah. 24 seven. I love it. Yeah. Like, uh, back street. What's, what was that? Remember that club back street that was open 24 hours in Atlanta? Right. That was the light night place. Yes. But it was like open 24 hours for real. Yeah. I didn't go there much. I didn't eat there. I mean, I was, I was not living in Atlanta

during its heyday. Okay. That's what I mean to say. I got you. I was all about back streets. I just didn't live there. I see. Uh, so in England, we're kind of marching forward through time. Uh, I think it was between 13 and 1600. This is when things kind of made the shift over those few hundred years from someone's home where the lady made great ale, uh, to an official, like licensed, what we would call a pub today. Um, I still don't think they were called public houses at this point, right? No, not until the Victorian era and the, I think the late 19th century. All right. But they were actually licensing places in the 1500s. Uh, and they made a distinction between the three different kinds of places where you could serve booze. Uh, the

ale house, which we talked about, uh, you could only sell ale and beer though. Uh, then you had your taverns, which also sold liquor and wine and food. And then the end where you could spend the night. Yeah. And one other really big, um, shift that took place during that time from ale houses to common brewers with licenses was that the licenses were given to men. So the, the custom of making ale and eventually beer moved from women to men exclusively, basically it was taken out of women's hands. Yeah. And it feels like an industry that's still very much male dominated, uh, uh, as is the wine industry. But I know there's a lot of support behind female, uh, brewers and wine makers these days. Uh, so that's always a good thing to seek out. Yeah. Well, there should

be. Uh, but there were a lot of pubs per person back then. Uh, there's a census from 1557 that basically, uh, showed that there was one licensed pub for every 187 people. Uh, whereas it's about one for every 657 people today, which I mean, if you've been to England anytime recently, like there are a lot of pubs there. Oh yeah. So to imagine there were that many more back then, or that fewer people, I guess is probably the likelier thing. Yes. Same amount of pubs, just a lot fewer people. Yeah. I always love working out dumb stuff in my head live on our episodes, but there's a good example of it. Uh, we had a great episode on Jen. I didn't think that was dumb, by the way. It doesn't matter. It's a combination of both, I think, uh, more pubs and

fewer people. I appreciate you. You're being very magnanimous on your birthday. Uh, Jen, we had a great episode on Jen. Um, but if you remember from that episode in the 1700s, Jen became a very sort of evil liquor. Yeah. And there were moves to ban it and limit Jen drinking. But while this was going on, beer was on the rise and England was all in on beer, basically saying like, we're not saying don't drink. We're saying Jen is bad and that ale and beer is really good. Yeah. They definitely accepted it from their ire. Um, and there was a, there was a really good, I guess, a political cartoon. It was two, two different panels in it, uh, that was produced in the 18th century, uh, by William Hogarth. I think it came out in 1751. And on one side

is Beer Street on the left side. On the right side is a very similar picture, but it's on Jen Lane. And if you look into what's going on in those pictures, they're very, two very different pictures. Um, and Jen Lane, it's basically like just has been ravaged by Jen. There's a mother who's like, stop, her, her child is toppling over a wall where it would just been breastfeeding because her mom is now like trying to figure out how to buy some Jen. There's some children, um, fighting over a dog or fighting over a bone with a dog. Um, I think a tradesman is, is pawning his, his tools, uh, all for Jen. And then if you go over to Beer Street, it's a different, different picture altogether for sure. Yeah. Everything's happening on Beer Street.

People are working hard. They look good. They're making art and they're drinking beer. But what's funny is if you look closely on Beer Street too, there's stuff that's, there's, there's, it's struggling a little bit too. There's like boards over one window. Um, people are definitely crocked. It's just hilarious that they didn't try to make it like perfectly perfect. Like there's still like just some, some frayed edges around there on Beer Street too. I thought that was kind of funny. And then the third panel was, uh, weed avenue. Nothing bad was happening there. No. Everybody's just kind of sitting around. Yeah. There's a lot of PlayStation admin. Yeah. I forgot what people do.

What? When they smoke pot? Yeah. I can't even come up with a decent joke here. Well, let's move to the Victorian area, uh, era and area, uh, because that is when we finally get our name, uh, the public house. And this is when things really sort of, uh, as, as did much in the Victorian area. Uh, man, why don't we keep saying that? The Victorian era took on a shine and a fanciness and these places became pretty swank. Yeah. Because while gin was vilified and run out of town in the middle of the 18th century, by the middle of the 19th century, it had come back. Remember in a different form, originally it was Dutch gin. Yeah. And then, uh, London dry gin made its, its mark in the 19th century and everybody's like, oh,

well, this is fine. We're making it here and we like gin again. And so they built gin palaces starting in the 1840s and they were very, very nice. They had like marble bars and they were just really well decked out. And, um, the pubs started kind of replicating that vibe when they were being built or remodeled or whatever. And so pubs started to, to add like bars. Apparently they didn't have bars before. I guess it was just all comfortable chairs and like maybe tables and things. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so they added bars at this area as well. Pretty awesome. Uh, in Ireland, you know, if we're again going chronologically around this time, um, they had some interesting, like the pubs over there. And I think this is true to a certain degree in England too, but

they were, there were more than just the place to go drink. It was sort of the, a center for public discourse and activity. Uh, some of them operated other businesses, like some, um, acted as banks during the daytime or post offices. Uh, and then there was the Coroners Act of 1846 that basically said, uh, pubs have these great cool sellers and, uh, that's where dead bodies should be taken in our village to be stored until the funeral because every pub has got a very cool basement and that wasn't just the most common thing at the time in home. So, uh, the Coroners Act of 1846, uh, I think demanded that a dead body was brought to the nearest pub. Yeah. And some, uh, publicans of people who own and operate pubs, um, said, oh, okay, I can make

some money doing that. And they started installing like marble bars in the basement, the sellers of their pubs to better accommodate corpses and cadavers that came their way. So they became undertakers as well. And it makes me wonder, like how many, how many Irish pubs have these marble slabs that the corpses used to be laid out on? Still today, I would love to see that. That would, I mean, imagine going in for, to a pub for a pint and ended up getting a tour like that. Yeah. That'd be really cool. It'd be like you suddenly woke up on weed street. Right. Weed Avenue. Dang. Uh, and then what about this other thing? This was really cool, I think. Uh, I love it when someone creates a drinking law that also has a tremendous gaping loophole for people to

jump through. Uh, and that was the case in 18, in the 1870s in Ireland, uh, to kind of tame down the pub scene. They said, all right, you got to close before midnight and you can only go to these pubs, um, at any hour, if you're what's called a bonafide traveler, which means that you have traveled in good faith, uh, at least three miles, like not just three miles to go get your drink, but you're really traveling. Right. So some Dublin pubs, um, picked up stakes and moved about three miles outside of town. Yes, sir. So anyone in Dublin who went there had to be, by definition, traveling. And then it was just a blurry line, whether you were a bonafide traveler, whatever. So they, they found that, that gaping loophole to drive through, drive their horse and

carriage through. Yeah. It's like, uh, it's one of those hard to enforce things like cutting through a gas station to avoid a red light. So you also said, Chuck, that, um, the Irish pubs served as these like community centers and English pubs definitely do too. But I feel like the Irish pubs actually kind of codified it with things like the coroner's act. Yeah. Um, but they really served as, as even greater community centers, maybe even more vital community centers, uh, or vitally needed ones over here in the U S when the Irish started coming over to America beginning in the 1840s, um, they brought with them their knowledge of how to build and operate a pub. So Irish pubs started springing up and they, they very much served as like the glue

for the community there. Yeah. Uh, taverns, especially, um, I know that, uh, here in Atlanta, anytime there is a big political discourse and activity and they need the persons, I know, you know what I'm going to say, they need like the person on the streets take, uh, the news crews will invariably go to manuals tavern, uh, sort of right near the Virginia Highlands in Atlanta. And it's a, it's a great old traditional, uh, sort of American style tavern, uh, that's been around for a long, long time that was owned by a local politician named manual Maloof. And as a result, he would have events there and it became sort of a, sort of just known for political discourse in Atlanta. So that's where the news always goes. I thought you're going to say they went to back

street. That's not still open, is it? I don't think so. But they, so yeah, manuals, is it man wells or manuals? It's manuals. Okay. So manuals tavern was established in 1957. Seems kind of old, but apparently there's still taverns in operation today that date back to the colonial period even. Like there's one in Newport, Rhode Island called the white horse tavern that says it's been open since 1673. Yes. Not the New York white horse. That is 200 years old or younger. Oh, is it? Yeah. I mean, you think like the white horse tavern, oh, it's the oldest thing in New York and not even close. Cause the, uh, I guess it's pronounced the Francis tavern in New York is from, uh, the 1780s? Yeah. Apparently George Washington took his, uh,

troops there to toast them after the British finally left the North American continent. I'd never heard of this place. I was disappointed because I liked to try and check out the old haunts in New York. And I thought I knew them all, but this one, I, you know, it's down there in the financial district at the very lower tip of Manhattan and it's just not an area I get to. I came across, um, a, uh, mention of a place called Lafites blacksmith shop down in New Orleans. And it's not a tavern or a pub, but it's supposed to be the oldest bar in the United States. And it, that it supposedly dates from 1622. Wow. And that it was called the blacksmith shop to throw off the authorities. It was actually not only a bar, an illegal bar,

but also a hideout for pirates who would plan and sell their, um, stolen goods there. And it's still open today from what I understand. Have you seen the new pirate show or flag means death? No, is it any good? Yeah, it's very funny. We just finished dope sick. Did not see that. It's not funny, but it's really good. Uh, what is it? Does it, what's, what's the story there? It's about the Sackler family and Purdue pharma and how they created the opioid epidemics single-handedly in the United States. And it's not, no, it's, it's a drama

well acted by every single person in it. Incredibly well written, well directed. It just keeps moving through eight episodes. Um, it's on Hulu and it is, um, like, it's just nuts to realize that we all just lived through that and didn't know what was going on and are just still only waking up to the damage that this, this family did. Well, our flag means death is much more fun than that. I'll check that out. You check out dope sick and I'll check out our flag means death. Okay. Uh, I guess we should take a break. Uh, take our second break and we'll come back and talk about pub names and pub games right after this.

Hey, I'm Lance Bass host of the new I hard podcast frosted tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough or you're at the end of the road. Okay. I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help this. I promise you. Oh God. Seriously. I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there for you. Oh man. And so my husband, Michael, um, hey, that's me. Yep. We know that Michael and a different hot sexy teen crush boy band are each week to guide you through life step by step.

Not another one. Kids relationships life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Just stop now. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen. So we'll never ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to frosted tips with Lance Bass on the I heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. All right. Names and games. Nice. Not gonna, not gonna bite. No. All right. One of the fun parts about pubs is, is their names. Some of the names at the beginning, like we mentioned the, the broom that they would put out front. Sometimes they got tired of that and they would just put out other things like a boot or a copper kettle. And that's where you would

have pub names like the boot or the copper kettle, especially if you were an illiterate population at the time, which a lot of people were for a lot of the history of pubs. Um, you would like, you would say, I'm going to the copper kettle, not because there was a sign that said the copper kettle because they had a copper kettle out. Yeah. Like that's, that was really helpful in that sense. And then over time, as literacy became more and more widespread, they would, they would write the name out and include a picture still for the people who couldn't yet read. Yeah. That's why they had those cool signs. Uh, it's funny. Like if there was only one per town, they should just say, I'm, I'm going to beer. Right. That's all they needed to say.

Going to ale house, but the, those, those pub names, they are really weird in a lot of cases. Even if you are English, you might think some of them are really, really weird. Um, and a lot of times you can kind of trace the history of that town or that area through the name of the pub. A lot of times they, um, trace the, the larger history of England, like the push and pull between Catholics and Protestants, the push and pull between the, the monarchy and, um, the Cromwell and his cronies during the English civil war. Um, like they, the names kind of reflect these, these changes over time in some ways too. Yeah. The, I think it was King Richard the Lionheart during their crusades. There are a lot of these pubs that were on the routes of the pilgrimages

and soldiers making their way over there. And so you would see there was one that's, uh, I think still around, uh, called Ye Old Trip to Jerusalem. Little on the nose. Uh, and another one called, uh, the Saracens head also on the nose. Yeah. I saw that Ye Old Trip to Jerusalem, they have like caves, um, underneath the, the actual current structure that they still use for seating today that are definitely dated back to the 13th century. Oh wow. Yeah. So I mean, like it's legit. Um, some of the other names that kind of have come along, like I was saying when, when, um, Cromwell and his Puritanical people took over, and I'm sorry, I misspoke. That wasn't during the English civil war. This came later, I believe. Um, but Cromwell, when, when the Puritans

took over and deposed the King, um, that there were a lot of pub owners who said, well, you know, these Puritans aren't super into a lot of the names that we have, like bacchanalia. So that got changed to bag of nails. God encompasses us. Which is you, you're like, why would they change that, that name? Um, and I remembered like the Puritans would have taken that probably as like taking God's name in vain and would have very much frowned on that. Oh, okay. So instead they went with the much less satanic goat encompasses. Uh, my favorite is, uh, Katharina Fidelis, uh, which is a reference to Queen Catherine of Aragon, uh, became Cat and Fidel, uh, because right there in the middle of Hollywood in Los Angeles, there is still the Cat and Fidel pub. Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's a place I

used to go to. And back then, I don't know if this is still the case, but back then there were, um, not rumors, but verified accounts of Morrissey hanging out at the Cat and Fidel during the day drinking Guinness. And, uh, he used to always go by there and wonder if he was sitting out. Yeah. Would you like just put your hands on the window and look inside? No, they had this great, uh, sort of hidden outdoor courtyard. I see. Uh, off the street that was really, really lovely, but, uh, I had some really good times at the Cat and Fidel back in the day. And it's still around, I think. Um, Chuck, another thing that people would do is cast their lot with the monarchy. So you'd see just the crown, which I saw that they would consider, they would,

they would take the name of the crown because if you did something like the Cat and Fidel or Catherine of Fidelis, when that monarch was no longer on the throne, you might have to change your name. But if you just say the crown, you're basically saying, I'm down with the monarchy. Yeah. And boy, the crown, I think is one of the more common pub names. It's number two from what I saw. Number one is Red Lion, which comes from all sorts of coats of arms. And Royal Oak is number three after the tree that King Charles II hid in from Cromwell and his Protestant cronies. I did look up, there were a bunch of websites that have like the top 20 weirdest names or whatever. Yeah. Uh, and I was looking through, there was one that was pretty good. Like sometimes

it was what the people did way back when there's one called the blacksmith and the toffee maker. So it was kind of on the nose. Man, can you imagine living in town with like a bona fide toffee maker? Yeah. I love toffee so much. I'd just live there. I'd live outside of their house. One's called the Job Center. This is in Depthord. For real? Yeah. And it was a former Job Center and they just renamed it the Job Center. Oh, okay. And then what is the, I can't find the one with a really long name that was kind of fun. Here's one, the camel in artichoke. That's pretty fun. That's a good one. Or the pyrotechnist's arms. Well, that was a big one. So there was probably a fireworks factory around there. Is that correct? Yeah, it was built on the side of a fireworks

factory. Yeah. So clearly that was a fairly recent one, but it follows a longstanding tradition. Like if you served carpenters, you'd call your place the carpenter's arms or the golden fleece. If you had like a bunch of wool workers who frequented your place. Or if you set up shop to attract like the sporting types, you'd have like the fox and the hound or something like that. Yeah, the dog and the duck. The lady in the tramp. The lady in the tramp, where you can share spaghetti with no silverware. That's right. It's very cute. You end up kissing at the end. So you said names, but the second half of your titillating rhyme said games that promise games. What kind of games are you delivering on? Well, of course darts. I used to be quite a

dart enthusiast and played in dart leagues. Oh, really? Yeah, through college. And then in my post college, I guess early 2000s Atlanta stay for a few years. Before I moved back to LA, I was still into darts and loved it. I think we should do a whole podcast on darts. When I moved to LA, they had nothing but the soft tip electronic game darts, which is not good. No, you can't even do that. So I didn't even bother. So I kind of fell out of playing. But my friend Justin, who I've referred to a bunch of, you know, still very big into darts and in one of the best art players around he does quite well in like regional tournaments and like stuff. Wow. Well, does Mr. Fancy Pants Justin, who's so good at darts, know that it originated with English

archers? I don't even know if he knows the history. I'm going to ask him. Oh, you got to tell him. And don't tell him I call them Mr. Fancy Pants. I won't. He doesn't care. He raises chickens. Apparently it did. That's right. And sells wine. They apparently it was English archers who would like draw targets on oak casks behind the bar and would shorten their arrows and use those to kind of keep their marksmanship steely edged. That's right. And you know what? I feel bad the other day I thought about mentioning Himalas's wine shop without saying the name because we say so many names of places and this is one of my oldest friends. So here in Atlanta in the neighborhood of Kirkwood, you can go to Dombejuice wine shop, Melissa's Portuguese and Dombejuice's

Portuguese. They have a great selection of Portuguese wine, but all kinds of great wine. And a new dude that they just hired I just met the other day. I was talking to him for a minute and he went, by the way, big stuff you should know fan. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So we chatted up for a little while, but you were more likely to see me there than anywhere in Atlanta. If you ever want to stop by, there's a 30% chance I'm there. And it's conveniently located in the old Backstreet building. It's conveniently located next to the police station. Oh, is that convenient? Yeah. I guess so for the police. Yeah, but here's the deal. You're next to a police station. They're either just getting off work and they don't want to be bothered or they're just getting on duty and they don't

want to be bothered. I guess you're right. So it's kind of the perfect place to drink. I guess so. You just sit outside and drink and mock them as they come, you know, to and fro. Yeah, and I can walk home or ride my bike. Oh, well, there you go. So it's convenient for you is what you're saying. That's right. So another game Chuck is Skittles. Yeah, I didn't quite get this. It's very easy. It's a bowling game, but instead of 10 pins, you have nine pins. And instead of a ball, you have a disc that is about the shape and size of a cheddar cheese wheel. Oh, okay. You just roll it at the pins. All right. In the south, they call that tire bowling. That's great. I could totally see people doing that too in the south. And then there's one other one. I mean, darts really rules

all I think of it there for pub games. Yeah. But something called Batten Trap Dave Dug up has an outdoor pub game that seems to be sort of early version of cricket. It's pretty neat. I watched a video of it and these people seem to be taking it quite seriously at the pub. But there's like a little gadget that holds a ball and you tap one end of the gadget, which knocks the ball into the air and then you hit the ball. And it looks very much like you're using a cricket bat. I'm not sure it's called a bat or not. And then the other people field the ball and rather than being out or not, it's now their turn to knock down a target that's located a ways away from them where you just batted with the cricket bat. You know, Bacci's big here in the States at bars now.

It has a tad bit of an element of Bacci to it, but knocking things down with Bacci. So I guess Bacci and Domino's plus cricket equals Batten Trap. Plus beer. That's right. Oh yeah. You're not going to play Batten Trap unless you've been drinking. That sounds like fun. I think you'd be like, what? What is this? So should we wrap it up with what's happening with pubs these days? Yes. So the decline started a while ago. Dave mentions the late 19th century and this is when sort of the first move of what people see as the beginning of the end for the all-encompassing neighborhood pub is when brewers struck up deals with pubs to only sell their beer and they became known as Tide Houses because they were tied to the one brand. And in the 1890s, it's hard to believe

this is happening that long ago, but 90% of the pubs in the big cities were Tide Houses. Yeah. And it just kept going and going and escalating through the 20th century too. And Parliament said, this sounds really weird. We need to get a handle on exactly how widespread this Tide Houses thing is because a bunch of the brewers started kind of consolidating into mega breweries and they found that 75% of all of England's pubs were under the thumbs of six brewers. And by far, Bass controlled the most. They had 7,300 pubs that were tied to them. And here's the thing, like if you have a pub that's tied to you, all they can do is sell your merchandise. All they can do is use glasses with your logo on it. All they can do is sell your

beer and you basically set the price whatever you want. It's almost like having a franchise. Yeah. Basically. And so Bass had 7,300. Whitbread had 6,500. And Courage had 5,100. And then there were just three other brewers that own the rest of them. And that has a really homogenizing effect on everything. It's kind of like wherever if you drive to any town in the United States, you're going to find like an old Navy and a TJ Maxx and the same everything. Well, that's one thing if you're talking about like reasonably priced jeans and you know, off-brand bars of soap, it's a totally different thing when you start messing with the institution that is essentially the soul of the nation. And that's what was going on

through the 20th century. Yeah. And I think it's gotten even more out of hand now because a lot of these pubs, and you know, we've seen the sort of the same thing with craft brewing here in the United States getting bought out by big brewers. But what hasn't really happened to my knowledge in the United States is the actual bars haven't been bought out en masse. But that's what's happened in England. And they're called pubcos. These big corporations have bought up like tons and tons of these pubs as sort of a real estate play, Gala McDonald's. And a lot of people, the criticisms are like, this is a real estate play, like you're not even, you're not even in this to make a good experience at the pub. It's just about sort of the building

in the land. Right. And they also are really strict over margins. Like if the stock prices fluctuate, they might, you know, find ways to cut costs back at the pub. And yeah, they don't care at all about customer experiences or consumer experiences. And apparently the smoking ban of 2007, and then also the lockdowns from coronavirus really put a hit on a lot of pubs. A lot of pubs were lost. I think 5,000 pubs were lost in the last like five years or something like that in England alone. But I strongly suspect they're not going to ultimately go anywhere. And evidence of that is a group called the Campaign for Real Ale, which I think kind of suggests that there's always going to be this, man, I guess I might as well just say it,

this thirst for genuine pubs in England and in places like Ireland as well. Yeah. So they're trying to kind of go back to that throwback to where it was true ale or real ale before it was hopped up and carbonated like beer is. And that sort of, you know, cast, condition, ale in the basement type of thing run by a sellerman, or I guess you would say a seller person these days, hopefully. And there's a more push, there's a push to get those going. There are lists that the Campaign for Real Ale puts out a good beer guide that lists 4500 camera approved pubs. But yeah, coronavirus, I saw, you know, Dave listed some of the oldest ones in England, still in operation, and he listed ye old fighting cocks founded in 1793, that was for

a while in the Guinness Book of Worlds record for oldest pub before they said, you know what, we can't really verify this stuff anymore, so we're not even going to list these places. Right. But that one closed in February. Oh no, not 1793, Chuck, 793. Oh, did I say 17? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 793.

And it closed? It closed in February and the owner, they still use the word publican, he said, I'm just a publican, I'm not a politician. And so he was kind of just speaking to the lockdowns. And, you know, someone else will probably open it up. Pita has gotten involved and said, you should open it up and change the name from ye old fighting cocks and only serve vegan food. And of course, people over there just love that idea. So we talked also about Sean's bar, it's supposed to be the oldest pub ever. And it is pretty close to being verified because archaeologists in the 70s found stuff in the walls and actually the

walls being made of daub and waddle, which I think we talked about in the bars episode. And it supposedly dates back to the invasion of the Vikings around 900 CE. So and it's still going strong as far as I know. Yeah, that's old man. There's also the old ferry boat in which claims to have been operating since 560 in Cambridge Shire. It's a great name. And I don't know if that's documented or not, but I was looking at that place and it may be the most charming beer garden out back I've ever seen in my entire life.

Which one? The old ferry boat in. Oh yeah, I looked that one up. 560. You know, Cambridge Shire is probably pronounced Krufster. I know. As it was coming out, I was saying I'm going to get an email for this. Good stuff. So that's it for pubs, everybody. If you have a pub near you, especially a local,

which is an independent pub, go support it. And since I said go support it, that means of course it's time for a listener mail. Yeah. And you know what? Last fact I wanted to throw in, we don't need to get into it, but I just had no idea that the term gastropub came from London. It seems like a very American sort of name. Sure. But it was coined in London in the early 1990s is when some of the pubs started saying, hey, let's stop serving bangers of mash and let's start serving some, they call it stuff that you would eat on vacation basically on holiday.

Right, on holiday. Good stuff. Gastropubs. Yeah. And since Chuck said gastropubs now, now everybody is time for a listener mail. I'm going to call this suggestion for something that we're actually going to do. This from Ron G. Hey guys, just want to offer up a suggestion for land acknowledgments. The way I found out about them was through a seminar I attended last year. The host of the seminar was a minister of a Buddhist temple up in Sacramento. And before he began the seminar,

he read a statement acknowledging that the land that the temple was on was previously occupied by and I think he named one, two, three, four different indigenous peoples. And said, when I looked into creating a land acknowledgement for our own temple here in Los Angeles, seem like a lot of organizations, mostly educational institutions have already done so, but there's some controversy behind it. But there seems to be a lot of good stuff out there on the topic. And I think listeners might enjoy it. You may even want to create a land acknowledgement for your studio. So your listeners can hear what it sounds like. And that is from Ron G. It's a great idea, Ron G. And Ron, we're going to do this one. This is in the works

already. Yeah, that's what I was saying. It's a great idea. I remember when we were on our Australia New Zealand tour, I think at pretty much every venue, they did a land acknowledgement at the beginning. That's right. They sure did. It's pretty cool. So it's a little bit of catching up we have to do here in the United States. Yeah, it's all part of the least we can do. Right. Well, let's see. If you want to get in touch with us like Ron G. did with a great suggestion, we love those kinds of things. Send them to us. You can wrap it up in an email and send it off to StuffPodcast at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, My Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help and a different hot sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never ever have to say bye, bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.