Stuff You Should Know - The Saga of Milli Vanilli

Episode Date: May 30, 2023

For a moment Milli Vanilli was the hottest musical act in the world. Then came the news that it was just that, an act, and the fall came swiftly and humiliatingly. Now, 30 years on, a look back yields not so much a cautionary tale as a very sad story.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio. Hey and welcome to the podcast, I'm Josh and there's Chuck and here's Jerry too and this is Stuff You Should Nenet Nen-nuh-nuh-no. You know it's true. Girl. Mm-hmm. Ooh, ooh, ooh.

I love that you had this idea to do one on the Millie Vanilla Story. Sure. I love that we're doing it. Yeah. And I was surprised about how much the US Army played in the story of Millie Vanilli. Yeah. Technically, you could say that the US Army produced

Millie Vanilli initially. Yeah, it's a little pointed out. Early on, there were just quite a few references. I was like, there's the Army again. Yeah, for sure. And even still today, but this is a full three decades later. Millie Vanillie is still generally looked down upon as frauds and a sham and just a joke. But when this one of those stories just like everything else when you really dig into it's way more complex, way more complicated.

And even when it's apparent and clear that you got, okay, here's the villain. If you read interviews with the villain at the time, you're like, you kind of make some great points here too. It's just complicated, but one thing that I hope you guys get out of this is that Rob and Fab were kids at the time, were in over their head, and were certainly not responsible for orchestrating the fraud that was perpetrated through Millie Vanille.

No, they did as they were told. And like you said, they were in the early 20s. I have a lot of sympathy for these guys. For sure. I do too, and I have even more now. Yeah. All right. So, you mentioned the, what would you call them, a villain or the orchestrator would,

what were they? I call them both technically. All right, well, we're talking about a man named Frank Ferrien. He was born as Frank's, I'm sorry, Franz Ruther in 1941, grew up in Germany, big fan of music, big fan of soul music, American soul music. Yes. And was a singer himself, apparently a pretty decent singer, and sang in clubs where United States army soldiers would go. Yeah.

And he sang what you'd call today blue-eyed soul, but this was before blue-eyed soul was acceptable, at least in Germany. So he wanted to sing like the songs of his heroes, but they were like, you know, you shouldn't be doing that, stop doing that. So he was awarded as an actual artist from the Gickgo, and he moved into producing in the early 70s. And there's a quote from him in the early 90s in the midst of all this, and he said, you know, I know, and other people are figuring out that the producer is now the most important person in the band, not the artist.

And if that didn't reflect the future, then I don't know what does. But he became a producer and he became a pretty successful producer almost out of the gate. Yeah. In Europe. And then eventually, obviously, thanks to Millie Vanille Worldwide, but in Europe, he was super successful with a group called Boni M, B-O-N-E-Y, capital M. I don't know if they had an exclamation point

or an interrebang or something, that would have been kind of cool. Sure. But an interrebang would have been perfect, actually. Yes. Because you're like, why is a Boney M? But Boney M was a group, Disco Funk, Olivia described them as Europop.

They were all these things. Yeah. When this album came out, and this is, I mean, pretty obvious that this laid the groundwork for Millie Vanilley, because Frank Farion sang the songs himself and hired four model singers from the Caribbean as the touring band. And between 76 and 85 over a nine year period,

they had eight studio albums and we're pretty big in Europe. They weren't the cutest thing ever, but they were big over there, not here, but he had laid this groundwork of this model of him or someone else singing and other people that had a prettier face would be on the cover as the group. Yeah, or touring as the group, too. All of it.

And you just wouldn't disclose that. You just, you know, not mention that kind of thing. Yeah. And Boni M became popular enough that a guy named Bobby Farrell, who was one of the, I think one of the models who was hired became the group's actual lead singer. But when he went to go into the studio and record tracks, after he left and the album came out, he'd find that his tracks have been re-recorded over with Farion singing. Yeah. So, that was just how it was.

Farion was in charge and you just had to go along with it probably because they signed a not so great contract with them. That's right. Now we turn to the beginnings of the Millie Vanille story when Frank Farion stole a song basically called Girl You Know It's True. It was written by a group of people. There

was a Baltimore hip-hop group named Newmarks in UMARX, collaborated with a singer from a group called Starpoint, named I guess Kai or Ki, at a Yemo. And then a man named Bill Petaway Jr. who became a really big person in the music business like work with Jay-Z and Missy Elliott and all kinds of people. But at the time was working at a gas station and got together with them, which included as part of Newmarks, a guy named Kevin Lyles, who was now the CEO of 300 Entertainment, which is a huge rap record label. Yeah, and if you go back and listen to Girl, you know, it's true by Newmarks,

you will recognize it immediately, because not only did Frank Ferry and Steel the song, when he remade it, he remade it really faithfully. He just basically gussied it up a little bit. More than Newmarks was capable of because again, he was a really talented producer, but he didn't, it wasn't an interpretation or a rearrangement of Girl You Know It's True. He just redid it exactly how Newmarks had done it, right? So just to put this in perspective, the fraud that was Millie Vanille started out with the theft of a song. Their biggest, their second biggest hit actually. Yeah, and this song, he was able to steal it because it was never a big hit.

I think it sold about 8,000 records. And in some regions of the US, I think Atlanta and Philly and Chicago was what Livia found. Got a little bit of airplay, but it was not a big song in the United States, but very key studio records who was the indie label to put it out. They also put it out in Europe, and this is where Frank heard it in Germany, and was like, I can still say, it's not a problem.

Exactly. Only 8,000 records, no problem. Yeah. So I didn't see if he ever sought the permission. There's like a legend that supposedly he wanted to go collaborate with new marks and was either ignored or was told no. That's not necessarily true. There's a lot of stuff here that you just have to take with the green assault because

there are a lot of different people with a lot of different self-interest that gave their own version of events. So just about everything we say you should probably take with a green assault, including that. It's entirely possible from what I've read about Frank Ferri, that he didn't try to get in touch with them at all. He just decided he was going to take that song. Yeah, and do it with the fallout later. They didn't. Newmarks didn't know that that happened until they heard

Millie Vanillee singing it on the radio. Can you imagine how mad you would be? Yeah, they got they got paid later and they got credit later because they followed a bunch of lawsuits, but it took that to get that credit and money. So when Frank Ferry and put together his own version of Girl, you know it's true. Fabrice Morvin and Rob Pilatus, or Pilatus, they weren't even around yet. They were not part of the group. They hadn't even met Frank Farrion at that point. They were well known around the Munich club scene as being like a couple of hot dudes who knew how to dance?

Sure. And I believe that's kind of where Ferry and caught on to them. For sure. Well, he invited them to come over. But before that, we should talk a little bit about Rob and Fab. Yeah. So Fab, like you said, his name is for Brice Morvin. I was born on Guadalupe. It's a Caribbean island raised in Paris. Evidently was a pretty promising gymnast until a vertebrae. was born on Guadalupe as a Caribbean island raised in Paris. Evidently was a pretty promising gymnast

until a vertebrae injury from a trampoline accident in 1983. I know, it just hurts to think about. I know. Trampoline's are so dangerous. They are so dangerous, everybody. If you have a trampoline, you haven't heard our trampoline episode, go listen to it and then sell your trampoline.

Ruby asked Everyone I was like no way sorry. No way. So couldn't participate in gymnastics anymore. It turned to dancing. So Rob, Polatus was born in New York City and the son of a German woman and a US soldier. Here we go again. An African American US soldier but was ended up in an orphanage in Bavaria and was adopted at the age of four by a German couple. And so he and for briefs have something in common there, there are two black men in the 1970s growing up in these not completely white cultures, but kind of devoid of a lot of black culture at least, facing racism from classmates and stuff like that.

And they bonded over this. I think it was Rob who talked about finally in his teenage years. Michael Jackson became such a big deal that all of a sudden, like, you know, even where he was in Germany, it became kind of trendy to be black and he wasn't like his picked on, I guess. But Super Hansen guy was a model, obviously very early on in a DJ and a break dancer. And a good enough break dancer that in 1984, he went to New York for a break dancing competition, which is where he met a fab

who was there for a dance seminar. Very fortuitous. Yeah, even more, like they didn't meet in New York. Rob decided to fly to LA as part of that trip to New York while he was over on the cross the pond. And that's where he met for breeze. All right. Does in New York? Well, he was in New York. They just didn't meet in New York.

So it was a very fortuitous chance meeting. And apparently, they got along and everything. And I saw that they ran into each other again and Munich. I don't know if they kept in touch or anything like that. But either way, once they were both back in Munich living in the same town together, they basically said, let's join forces and really knock the socks off of the people

at the clubs around here. That's how you were, they didn't meet. Where? Kansas City. It's true. It's like, was it New Yorker LA? Where else could it be? It's not Kansas City, it's true.

No, or, I don't know, what's another place they wouldn't have met. Topeka? Arlington, Virginia. Topeka. Sure, they could have met in Arlington. Is this outside of DC? Yeah. All right. I mean, it's just right across the river. So what are they doing in DC? Meeting the president, I would guess. Model you in? Yeah, they were doing break dancing for Ronald Reagan all right model you That was a fun little improv exercise sure So Like you said they

Met back in Munich they would eventually get the attention of Frank Farion Who was obviously kind of I'm sure you like to think you knew everybody in that scene in Germany And got in touch with them on New Year's Day, 1988, came together very quickly. Brought them to his studio in Frankfurt, played them, girl, you know, it's true. They signed a record contract that day, where in which Frank Ferri and said,

I will put out at least 10 songs a year by you guys. And as far as Robin, Faber, concerned, and I totally believe him, they thought that meant we are going to sing these songs, even though they weren't great singers. They also later said that they didn't read the contract, and the fact that they met and signed a contract on New Year's Day in 1988 certainly supports that. At the very least, they didn't bring any legal counsel in to look at it. So they just trusted Frank Farion.

They had been looking for singing part, so they just assumed that that's what he was saying. We're going to make records with you guys. That is not what had happened. And by this time, Farion already knew he didn't want Rob or Fab to sing. It wasn't like he had them over, heard them sing. It was like, I've got to figure something else out.

He was like, I love your look. And you guys are going to be the lip-sinking frontman of Millie Vanilley. And I'm just not going to tell you that at first. That's right. What he had really done was, as everybody knows, I think probably by now, but he hired professional singers to record, girl, you know, it's true. Some gentlemen by the name of Brad Howell and John Davis, former US soldiers once again.

He met them in Germany when Farion was working there, and then another former US soldier, Charles Shaw as a guy who did the rap portion of that song. Yeah, I was puzzled. I'm like, are they talking about, they're not talking about the, they have to be speaking about that one part where he just suddenly goes like I'm in love with you girl you on my mind bat. Yeah, that's what they're calling rap sure her what else is it? Like rhythmic singing that's what rap is. Yeah, I don't know about that one. Yeah, that was the rap part. Okay

Sorry Charles. You take issue. I guess I did definitely I definitely did even today like I'm not looking down on Millie Vanilli like sure that was not rap. All right. Well that blondie song was more rap than the rap rap and girl. You know, it's true. Yeah. So at any rate, those three guys did with it, whatever they did on tape, as the real singers slash rappers slash, how did you describe it? Rhythmic talkers? Rhythmic singers. Rhythmic singers. But from the get go, it wasn't like, hey, we're going to be this new band, we're going to go out on tour. I think howl was in his 40s and he was like, I'm not going to tour. Farions was, it was just Farions and he was like, I'm not gonna tour.

Farions was just, Farions deal from the beginning is I'm gonna have these two super handsome model guys in there. You guys are gonna sing and I think they ended up listing them as backup singers on the record, the guys who really sang it. And that was just, that was the arrangement from the beginning to everybody but Robin fab yes I'm not sure exactly when they figured out that that was that they were not going to be singing I don't know because when he played them the song girl you know it's true the demo allegedly it was instrumental at that point oh really yeah so that it wasn't like he was playing

this for them and saying like, you guys are just going to pretend you're doing, you're singing this. Like, I don't know when they figured it out, but it didn't take very long. And just as like a little side note before we go, take a break. Where did the name Millie have been only come from? What does it mean, Chuck? Well, who knows? There's a bunch of stories.

Robin Fabb said that it meant positive energy in Turkish, which just isn't true. Sounds like something you would say for, you know, when you're trying to sell records or whatever. But also, the words mille-vonilli sound Turkish in any way, shape or form. I don't know Turkish, but it doesn't sound particularly Turkish to my 90 years. Definitely. It does not. but it doesn't sound particularly Turkish to my 90 years. No, it definitely does not. Some people said it was a disco-tec in Berlin by that name. Some people said Frank Fieryne's assistant,

Ingrid Seaguth, her nickname was Milley. And then other people said it might have been, and I'm not sure about this at all, but it might have been inspired by Skriti Palliti, the great English pop band who is very underrated, I think. Yeah, they sing that song perfect way. I've got a perfect way to make the girls go crazy. Skitty Plyty is great.

It is, and that's a good song, but I just wanted to take this moment because there's so few opportunities to express my opinion of the greatest song of the 80s. The entire 80s, the entire decade, is owner of a lonely heart by yes., but yes. I just heard that song. It's one of those ones that I'll hear it on the radio or in the mall or something, because you know, there's still malls. And I will never be like, oh, this song. I can listen to that song every single time it comes on. Yeah. It is so well done.

It's so complex, but it's so catchy. It's so well played. It's just the perfect song from the 80s. Yeah. Move yourself. It's a great start. Yeah. Great end, great middle. Yeah. The whole shebang. I like that whole album. What was it? It was a series of numbers. I wanted to say 9 or 2 and L, but that can't be. Oh,12 No, I can't remember I liked it though. They had that great song. I'll leave it from that record to that's literally the only song I've heard off of that record that actually might be the only yes song I've ever heard doesn't matter It's still the greatest song of the 80s. You've heard roundabout probably Is it go roundabout Yeah, you've got to lose control on the round about.

All right, we're going to take a break and we'll talk about the deception right after this. There's a ton of stuff they don't want you to know. Does the U.S. government really have alien technology? And what about the future of artificial intelligence, AI? What happens when computers learn to think? Could there be a serial killer in your town? From UFOs to psychic powers and government cover-ups from unsolved crimes to the bleeding edge of science, history is riddled with unexplained events. We spent a decade applying critical thinking to some of the most bizarre phenomenon civilization

and beyond. Each week, we dive deep into unsolved mysteries, conspiracy theories and actual conspiracies. You've heard about these things, but what's the full story? Listen to stuff they don't want you to know on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you find your favorite shows. What's up fam? I'm Brian Ford, artist and baker

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Listen to the good stuff on the I HeartartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Okay, Chuck. So in April 1988, you said that this all happened very quick. It's worth pointing out. This entire shabang, especially starting from when they reached the United States till they're downfall, was less than two years. Yes. It was all compressed in just a couple of years. And the whole thing started in April 1988. And after Frank Ferry and had his completed recording of Girl, Rob and Fab started touring

Spain and France. So they were promoting it. They were singing this, right? So by this point, Farion had said, hey, you guys just go out and just lip sync to this one. And then when we do the next album, you guys can actually sing. And that was one of the big reasons that they bought into it. So by this time, by April 1988, there were well aware what was going on.

Yeah. And by the way, dear listener, if you hear a gentle thudding in the background, I don't know if it's coming through, but it's not me banging the desk. There are some construction going on next door. And I can't control these people. They basically said, I'm sorry. They have minds of their own.

Yeah, they have minds and they have a job to do so they're doing it, but you may hear like a low level bump every now and then. I can't hear anything. All right, so maybe it's not coming through, I don't know. But anyway, back to the story, this song was big in Germany, like you said. Did you say that?

Yeah, I didn't know. Okay, it was big in Germany, became a number one hit in Germany and you know, it was like sort of a thing in Europe early on before it got to America and right out of the bat, right off the bat, out of the gate in Europe when this song became a hit, Shaw, the original rapper guy who just doesn't think rap's, basically came out to the to the media in european was like by the way that's me and then that got

uh... shut down really really quickly uh... he says it's because he was threatened by frank fary and frank fary and says no i pay them like mid you know one hundred fifty grand to keep his mouth shut uh... but it anyway this is the first time that like the cat was out of the bag a little bit and rumors were kind of going around to the point basically where on a radio station in Europe, they had a DJ that was like, hey, like, you guys, are you really singing this?

Like, sing on the air to prove that you're really good singers. Right. I saw this described as by the time, you know, it finally out, a very poorly kept secret in the music industry. Yeah. But that is definitely where it would have started for sure. Also, people who met them and were in the music industry were like, these guys did not sing that. They were talked about as Hans and Frons.

They sounded like Hans and Fr Franz is how one interviewer put it because they have very thick European accents. And apparently Rob, no, Fab, his English was so shaky that he just usually didn't talk very much. He'd interject a word here or there, but Rob spoke for them most of the time. Yeah, I mean, in their favor, like the way someone sings is not, often not the way that they talk. Right. But it was a fairly thinly veiled scheme, you know?

It's like a lot of people early on were like, something's not adding up here when you interview these guys. Right, exactly. All right, so Rob and Fab are still beating this drum and this is something that you'll see as a theme through this whole thing. They never, ever stopped asking to sing their own stuff. Very important.

Pleading with Frank Varian to let them sing their stuff. They really wanted to do it. I get the sense that they didn't feel great about the arrangement at all and that they wanted to sing. They wanted it. They thought they were all. And they wanted to sing. They thought they were good singers and they wanted to sing. They also felt like they were trapped and I think Rob put her feb put it as a golden prison.

Oh yeah. They've been giving us $20,000 advances, fuzzy handcuffs from Frank Ferry and very early on. And these guys like to party. There's no two ways around that so These two 25-year-old good-looking hunks who were suddenly kind of they started out on the club scene And now they were the most popular dudes at the clubs in Munich. Yeah with money 20 grand each. Yeah They didn't stick around for very long. So they would have owed that back to

stick around for very long. So they would have owed that back to Frank Farrion and they were like, well, now we're really stuck. Like we're not only kind of looped into this lie, we're financially obligated to this guy. Yeah. Absolutely. I think, and again, like you get a lot of stories from the people involved. Rob said later on that while this was happening in the early days he got in touch with people from Boney M. And they said by the way this Frank Faring guys are rat and he wouldn't let us sing and he sang the songs and it was all a big scam. And so I think early on Rob sort of saw the writing on the walls like we're in this deal where we're probably not going to get to sing. But their star was rising in early 1989 is when they hit the United States when they signed with Erysta Records, division of BMG who was the president of BMG at the time was Clive Davis legendary

producer. There's a really good documentary on him by the way that I highly recommend. I think he was the president of Arista. Oh, I thought he was president of BMG. I don't think so. I thought he was Arista, but yeah, you might be right. Well, either way, Clive Davis is a legend, no matter who he works for. Yeah. And great documentary on him. And they signed them on the strength of Girl, you know Know It's True, released it as a single at the end of January 1989 and then repackaged the European version of the album for the United States as the album title Girl You Know It's True. Its remixes, took some songs off, put some on, and then released the full album and the

dates are important here just because of how quickly it was in March of 1989. Okay. So the singles released at the end of January 1989, the album comes out in March of 1989. And I referred earlier to Girl, you know, it's true as they're one of their second biggest hits. It only reached number two on the Billboard charts, and I say only. But it's kind of surprising because that's the one that everybody thinks of with Millie Vanilli. Maybe it's because that was everyone's introduction to it. But it hit number two in April. So the following month, overall that album, worldwide sold 11 million copies. It is so hard to sell

11 million copies of a record. It's astounding. And 7 million of those copies were sold in the United States alone. Yeah. So they had a number two hit in April. They had a number one with baby. Don't forget my number in July. Had another number one with girl I'm going to miss you in September. You may maybe watch that video. That was good. I watched it too. Just like an hour ago. She's like, look, when you watch the part where he goes, I'll think of it later, but there's a refrain that he keeps hitting throughout the video, and he does not lip sync it correctly one time in the whole video. Yeah. Well, the music video though, a lot of that lip singing was great to be fair.

True, but this was the point. Yeah, and I guess in hindsight, you're looking for it so you could see it, but she seemed to have noticed it pretty early on. Right. And then Blame It on the Rain was their final number one in November, and then all or nothing was a number four in February of 90.

So they had number one hits in, I'm sorry, number two hit in April, the number one hits in July, September, November, and then a number four in February of the next year. Right. That's as hot as any band in the history of music. Yes, dude. Five singles released all five in the top five,

Billboard charts three number ones. It's astounding. Like I knew Millie Vanille was big big but when you see it on paper like that Uh-huh like you said I mean like there's very few people that have ever matched that kind of thing and they were just Man the definition of a flash in the pan. They just came on and blew up and and blew out in no time at all tune in Turn out turn out tune in. What is it show up? I'm okay.. Tune in, turn out, turn out, tune in. What is it? Show up high to you now.

So they figured that they would be better served and probably a little more protected and have more leverage if they weren't in Germany anymore under the literal thumb of Frank Ferrien. So they relocated to Beverly Hills just a few months later in June of that year. They, this is my senior year of high school, by the way, just put that perspective. Right. I was 13 going into, that year, this is my senior high school by the way, just put that perspective.

Right, I was 13 going into, I was eighth grade. Okay, and by this time I was listening to the Cure and REM and the Smiths and in excess and all that stuff. This is when I was like starting in like 86, 87 on, I started getting into like my little alternative thing. Cool. But I like, everyone knew this stuff.

You couldn't escape it, I was an MTV kid. So I knew all these songs, it wasn't my thing, but like I can sing them all still. The whole world was singing Millie Vanilla at the time. But baby, are you kidding me? Yeah, exactly. So they sign, and this is a pretty key detail too, with a very big manager, a music manager named Sandy Gallon of Gallon

Mori associates. You remember him, right? Oh, wait, what was that from? It was Dolly Parton's manager who helped to cross over. Yeah, yeah. I knew that sounded familiar. He managed Millie Vanilli and Dolly Parton. What, who else do you need?

Yeah, really. All right. So, 1989, they have blown up, they became part of the first club MTV tour, alongside WasnotWas, Information Society, Toneloq, and Polarebdoual. That's a good tour. Good tour, but like the suspicion that started in Europe followed them here and like we mentioned with the interviews and their accents and Broken English like things started to go a little south here as well to the point where like just a few months after they came here

They stopped doing radio and TV interviews. Yeah, they would only do print But ironically they were allowed to use their voices for an appearance on a Super Mario 3 cartoon Where they they play themselves, but they're kidnapped by Bowser's daughter and turned into accountants because they won't perform for her. And if you go watch that clips of that cartoon, you're like, wow, those guys really did not sound

anything like they sounded on the record. I saw a clip, I'm sure we both watch like tons of clips, but there was one clip where they were trying to prove they could sing and they did this little acapella harmony bit. And they were just flat. It wasn't like they were completely tone deaf or anything. And fab actually can sing a little bit. I think Rob couldn't sing that great, but they, you know, they were quote unquote harmonizing and sort of were like, did you get a load of that, but it was super flat.

It was, it was not great. But I think like producers have done more with less with auto tune and all that stuff for sure. That is a big thing. That's something to kind of like put it into context. Like this is, this is maybe the world's entreated to what producers exactly did. And in a way kind of established it is okay to start messing with the talents abilities.

It was the inflection point where it went from an emphasis on talent and creativity to an ability to package an artist and sell them. And a lot of people blame MTV for this happening and MTV says that's absurd. Right. So we have to talk about what happened in July. And again, they had four of their hits

after July of that year. Despite the fact that at a concert in Bristol, Connecticut, they were lip syncing very famously. It skipped or it got hung up or whatever. On Girl You Know It's True, there's a very brief clip on it from a VH1 special, I think, behind the music, where although Olivia says that variety said it wasn't as dramatic as, Girl You Know It's Girl you know it's, but that's what it showed in the video. Right.

And they didn't know how to handle it. If they would have ridden it out, they probably would have been okay because a lot of like big dancing performers lip sync and everyone kind of knows this. At least parts of their shows. If they would have stayed up there, they might have been okay, but they freaked out and rob like ran off stage in a panic, basically. Yeah, totally.

And it was downtown Julie Brown, who I guess was touring with the Club MTV tour, who talked him into going back out. And I was reading a variety article written in 2020 about this. And they referred to her as Julie Downtown Brown. And I suspect that article was written by a millennial. Yeah, who probably doesn't even know, Waba, Waba, Waba. Julie down, down, you remember that?

Yeah, totally. I forgot all about that and it just popped into my head. Downtown Julie Brown. Yeah, and what's funny is one of the reasons why she went by downtown Julie Brown is, because there was another equally famous Julie Brown on MTV at the same time. Remember her? The red-headed Julie Brown is because there was another equally famous Julie Brown on MTV at the same time. Remember her?

The red headed Julie Brown. Sort of a weird, I feel like PB Herman adjacent type character. You're not thinking of Judy Tanuda, are you? No, I'm not. Okay. Look up Julie Brown. All right. Okay.

I will. Fine. You want me to do right now? Yeah, I'll keep talking if you want to. Yeah, go ahead, take this next bit. So that was like a big deal that Bristol Connecticut showed to them. They felt like that that was the beginning of the end.

And even still in later interviews, they would point to that as like that was the beginning of the end of Millie Vanille. They knew that this act that they've been carrying on was unraveling basically. And they later said that they were unhappy, nervous, scared, stressed the entire time. And they kept partying. The lot of people say that they kept partying because they were so stressed. I don't know if that's true or not.

But it's understandable that they would have been kind of stressed. I don't know if that's true or not, but they, they, it's understandable that they would have been kind of stressed. By the way, Julie Brown, I totally recognize her now. Sure. And that's who I was thinking of. And I might have said Julie T'Nuda, it was Judy T'Nuda, the comedian. Yeah, you said Judy, I think. I did. Okay. I think I thought that was Judy T'Nuda, but I totally remember Julie Brown now. But she's similar in character, not quite as like over the top as Judy T'Nuda, but similar. She's kind of a fanboy, yeah. For sure.

She was great. I wasn't listening to you though, where were you? I was talking about how they were stressed and nervous all the time, and now they felt like this thing was really unraveling, and that they called the Bristol Connecticut Show the beginning of the end. Yeah, for sure. So while this is going on, like Millie Vanilley is having all this chart success, but they

were never a critical darling. In fact, they were, and I think people for sure piled on a lot more after the secret came out. But even before that, they became a little bit of a symbol of what serious music critics kind of thought was the unravelling of pop music and how shallow it was and how like overproduced and arranged everything was and kind of the worst version of what pop music ultimately became before it kind of course corrected. Yeah, and a lot of that came from the usual suspects, the rock community who

yeah of course. It arranged themselves as like the arbiters of what was music and what was not. Yeah. And now that we're at this part I really regret talking about whether that was rap or not and the girl you know it's true song. That's right. Because it's essentially the same thing but yeah it's Millie Vanille was an target, even before they were outed as frauds, right? Yeah. So I think that made it all the more sweet for the people who were rooting against them to have their wildest dreams come true.

And Millie Vanillie be outed as frauds. Like there are people rooting against them. Again, though, like this is a really complicating factor, Chuck. How much of Millie Vanillee's popularity, then, if the music wasn't that good, or if you're a music critic, how much of Millie Vanillee's success came from Robin Fabb and the work that they were doing? They definitely did some work. At the very peak, they did 107 cities in an eight month tour. That's a lot of work. And also people loved it, like their look,

they thought they were hot, they loved their dances, that little dance move where they faced one another and just like kind of ran in place. In front of everyone was doing that. Everyone did that dance move. Whether they were serious or not of everyone was doing that. Everyone did that dance move. Whether they were serious or not, everyone was doing that dance move. So how much of their popularity

can you, you know, ascribe to Rob and Fab? And I would say quite a bit. Oh, absolutely. I mean, 107 shows, I'm fairly tired from our big three-show swing that we just hit. Yeah, by the way, thank you DC Boston and Toronto for fun times. Yeah, those great way, thank you DC Boston and Toronto for fun times. Yeah, it was great shows.

These guys also didn't do themselves a lot of favors. I think in particular Rob, who was a little bit more vocal just because I think he felt more comfortable speaking English in front of microphones. Looking back though, the guy was probably scared and defensive, but he would say some kind of dumb stuff sometimes like in an article early stuff that wouldn't do many favors I can't remember which magazine but one I think it's time. There's a quote here where he says musically We're more talented than any Bob Dylan musically. We're more talented than Paul McCartney

Mick Jagger his lines are not clear. He don't know how he should produce a sound. I'm the new modern rock and roll. I'm the new Elvis. So Rob said that that was wildly taking out a context that he didn't say anything like that. The close direct quote. The right.

I know. But the closest that he says he said was that, you know, Elvis was huge in his generation and their huge in their generation. Whether he was misquoted or not, this is a potential PR disaster for this obviously short-lived group. So everybody involved, the record label, the fairion, their managers, all decided that they needed to go on a press tour to basically, you know, explain this away. And then somebody else decided that they needed to work a medley of the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and Bob Dylan into one of, into their show.

And they were going to go forward on it and Robin Fabb or the two that had the sense to be like that's a terrible idea we're not going to do that so they dropped that. But that was how they were going to show that they didn't think they were bigger than the stones, the beetles and Bob Dylan by doing a medley of their songs at their live shows. Great idea. I think so too. All right. of their songs at their lives. Great idea. I think so too. Alright, let's take our second break

and we're going to come back and talk about the rest right after this. Music There's a ton of stuff they don't want you to know. Does the U.S. government really have alien technology? And what about the future of artificial intelligence, AI? What happens when computers learn to think? Could there be a serial killer in your town?

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You've heard about these things, but what's the full story? Listen to stuff they don't want you to know on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you find your favorite shows. What's up fam, I'm Brian Ford, Artisan Baker and host of the new podcast FlakyBiscuit. On this podcast, I'm gonna get to know my guests by cooking up their favorite nostalgic meal. It could be anything from Twinkies to moms Thanksgiving Jurassic. Sometimes I might get it wrong, sometimes I'll get it right. I'm so happy it's good because man, if it wasn't, I'd be like, you know, everybody not my mom. Either way, we will have a blast. You'll have access to every recipe so you can cook and bake alongside me.

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Hola, hola. It's your girl, Cheekies. And I'm back with brand new episodes of my podcasts, Cheekies and Chill and Dear Cheekies. Last season, I shared so many intimate stories with you guys episodes of my podcasts, cheekies, and chill, and dear cheekies. Last season, I shared so many intimate stories with you guys and had conversations with some of my favorite people. This season, we're picking up right where we left off.

We'll talk about everything from spirituality, relationships, women's health, and so much more. And guess what? Dear cheekies is also back. Seguiré contestando todo a tus preguntas. I'll be answering even more of your questions. O sea, me voy a enseñar más de tus preguntas. Y, ¿sabes? No puedo esperar.

Así que no te pierdas. Núen momento, de Chiquis y Shell y de Chiquis, como parte de mi cultura podcast network available en el I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, o, por lo que, ¡que te encuentras! All right, so here's the question, which is, and Livia titles this section that, who

knew what win, because that's sort of the big question. So Rob and Fab, their manager, Sandy Gallon, Clive Davis, and it seems like a lot of people on the inside in the music scene knew this was going on. In the summer of 1989, while they were putting out these songs and having these big hits, there's a guy named Todd Headley who used to work for Millie Vanille, I believe he ended up being their manager at a certain point afterward when they were just robin' fab. But he said, you know, everyone that was connected to this, knew this.

I don't know, like, necessarily when, but everybody knew this. As far as Aristagos, they said, well, we didn't know it. Frank Farion, I guess I bet you there was some handshake deal or something going on. Cause he took, he basically came out very vehemently saying, no, Aristagos didn't know anything about this. But everyone knew basically on the inside.

Yes, but all of those people publicly said that they did not know. I mean, can you imagine the record company being like, we had no idea these guys didn't sing on the tracks. Yeah. But that's what they said. So, in the whole time, remember, just bear in mind, they kept trying to fight to sing.

Like, their whole sideline was trying to convince Frank Ferry to let them sing on the next hour, right? Let's start, let's start. And so, finally, I believe that the whole thing came to a head. Oh, yeah, that was evidence. I'm sorry, there was evidence that shows that at least Clive Davis from Arista knew that this was going on because they see Cedem on letters from their lawyers demanding that Frank Ferry and let them sing on the next album.

So if Clive Davis wasn't like, what do you mean on the next album? Why Ferry and let them sing on the next album. Yeah. So if if Clive Davis wasn't like, what do you mean on the next album? Why wouldn't you let them sing? If he didn't look into it, that's the zone bad. The implication is that he wouldn't have looked into it because he knew exactly what that meant. Right.

So the whole thing came to a head with the 1990 Grammy ceremony, right? That's right. They were obviously going gonna be a strong contender for best new artists uh... as the story goes clive davis did not want to submit them because he knew it was a fraud uh... but sandy gallon and the management company said no we're gonna submit them they won best of course they won best new artists at the grimy who else would

and they performed at the ceremony lip sync tosinked at the ceremony. They owned the Grammys that year. They did. And the producer of the Grammys was basically later on. It's like, you know, everybody really sings is one of the few times in 40 years of doing this that I've let someone lip-sink. But that is where things kind of went downhill. I think the Grammys later said like, all you had to do was put somewhere on the record, even in the smallest print like Millie Vanillee is and Lissie original singers, but like we can't let you keep these Grammys. So we got to take them back. Right. And they actually fully intended to apparently the day after the Grammys said we want

our Grammys back. Michael Green, the president of it said we want our Grammys back, Michael Green, the president of it said we want our Grammys back, something along those lines. They had already had a press conference schedule where they intended to give them back. Well, not give them back, give them to the singers. Right. Initially, they had wanted to. And apparently the Grammys were like, do not give those to anybody. It's not up to you to give them to anyone.

And the question is whether or not they were going to give the Grammy to the next runner up. I can't remember. I think tone, loke, information society. I can't remember who else, but they didn't. There was no Grammy for best new artists given out for 1990, because Millie Vanilles was taken back. What could have been? And at that press conference, they had their voice coach stand up and say, yeah, these guys can sing. I totally attest to that. And that was where you mentioned earlier that they kind of like wrapped in sang

just these little snippets to show that they could and that wasn't very good. Yeah. But that was, it was a very fateful press conference. If you watch it, they don't seem at all nervous. They seem like they're soaking in the love still. And I read that during this time, they expected the music industry to take them back with open arms because they'd done so much to make Millie Vanilla huge, but this did not happen.

All right, so that, the Grammy, Snaffoo was on November 19th, 1990. This happened because five days earlier, Frank Farrion finally came out because these guys would not stop asking to sing. And it was not only annoying to Frank Farrion, but he was in between a rock and a hard place as like, can this thing even go on anymore? So he figured, it can't go on. I'm going to hold a press conference. I'm going to expose everything. He disclosed it all, and he said, you know, still, Aristos didn't know anything about this.

And Aristos, they were this guy, the VP of operations, Roy Lott, had to quote where he was like, seven million albums embarrassing. Am I embarrassed? You know, I don't mean the Injustified the Means, but we sold seven million albums. Right. And I'm like, dude, that's the very definition of the Injustified thinking exactly. I don't think you know what that means. Yeah. So, there was a very wide-ranging impact from this. Like we've kind of talked about like a lot of people pointed at this and said, see, see, like this isn't about the actual music or the creativity or the talent anymore.

It's about packaging people as artists so much so that they didn't even sing on the album. That was the big thing. If it didn't come out that they were lip syncing in concerts, they could have pointed to everybody from Janet Jackson to Paul Labdool and said, they lip sync too. You can't really sing well when you're doing these incredible choreographed dances throughout a whole show.

So of course they're lip syncing. It wasn't that. It was that they didn't even sing on the album, that they had nothing to do with the music aside from the visuals, that that's what really kind of got everybody. But one of the things that it definitely exposes that this is not a standalone incident. No, and it was well known in the music industry that this happened. Martha Wall, she was part of the Weather Girls who had the great song It's Raining Men. She was the one who sang that part on the CNC music factory hit. Yeah. Again, they hired a model slash singer

who to sort of pretend like she had done it. But without her knowledge. Oh yeah. The Village People had always been rumored to have not been the actual singers like that first version of the Village People. And I tried to find out if that was true and I really couldn't see anything definite.

But a lot of people were doing this kind of thing here and there. Lawsuits started to be people, I think we're just sort of fed up though. And it was the end of the 80s and I think people, I think styles were changing and taste were changing and they're like, we don't want fake music. You should start putting truth on labels. This wasn't recorded by this, like truth and music labeling. Fans filed class action lawsuits about Millie Benelli and it was settled by getting up to $3 from BMG and Aristof.

You could say, like, here's my concert ticket or here's the album hit up a bot. Farion, and you kind of alluded to this early on. And I sort of agree, like it was a fraud, but he was also like, this is pop music. And like, who cares? And Europe, like no one cares, it's no big deal. Like everyone in America got so riled up about this. And like, you know, these guys made a couple of million bucks.

I made money, the guys who really sang it, ended up making money. Like who cares? Right. And I sort of get that a little bit because there's a lot more things to be getting a huff about, but I also get it in a way. Yeah, and I think now we do, but we do now because of the rough transition that we went through by being so-so let down by Millivanelli.

I wasn't let down. Lier. So Robin Fab, again, they were expecting to just basically be welcome back into the fold pretty quickly that this was basically just a speed bump and now, more than anything, they were released from this golden prison they were in. They didn't have to be stressed out about people finding out their secret any longer. And now finally, they could do their own music. And they actually released an album called Rob and Fab.

Using their real voices, they showed up on the Arsenio Hall Show to Sing Live, which they had turned down before because the Arsenio Hall Show required performers to perform live, no lip syncing. So now this is kind of like a triumphant appearance on the Arsenio Hall Show. Their album sold 2,000 copies in in the US and that was it.

Yeah, it was a big flop. I did not know until today that they did a cover version on that album of cheap tricks. I want you to want me. Oh, I didn't know that either. Listen to it. I definitely will. But so a lot of people are like, yeah, of course it was a

flop. They were frauds. I think that lot of people are like, yeah, of course it was a flop. They were frauds. I think that one of the reasons, probably the biggest reason it was a flop is that they really sit in 1993. And 1990 and 1993 were situated into totally different worlds. Because nevermind had come out in September of 1991 and no one cared a lick about anything that CNC music factory or black box or millivinelli was putting out.

All they wanted was more and more nirvana and grunge and give it to us, give us pearl jam, give us all that stuff that's all we care about. So I think that that at least accounts for a significant reason why it was such a flop. Yeah, bad timing for sure. And for, I mean, that changed all the music. That's when the metal bands were all, I go, what are we supposed to do now? It was a big transition. As far as Robin Fabb, if you haven't seen the behind the music, some pretty sad stuff happened afterward. Rob had a pretty

rough life after that. He had a suicide attempt in 91. He was in rehab quite a few times. He was arrested a few times. They eventually were gonna get back together in 1998 to work on something, but on April 7th of that year, he was found dead in a hotel room and everyone basically agrees that it was an accidental overdose of alcohol and pills. And fab was heartbroken and put out a

pretty app statement, I think, was millivineally was not a disgrace. The only disgrace is how Rob died all alone. Where were the ones that pushed us to the top who made millions? And it's just that familiar story of sort of getting used and then kicked to the curb and forgotten about, you know. Chewed up by more powerful people. Yeah. Exactly. So, um, Fab actually, they were both really like into drugs and drinking, um, and Fab made it out. I read that he paid for, um, one of Rob Stinson rehab. That's great. Um, so he made it out. He still sings today. In 2015, he joined up with John Davis, one of the original singers of Millie Vanilli.

And they toured, I think, as face meets voice. So they performed some of Millie Vanilli songs on tour. And one thing that I am so looking forward to, I can't even stand it, is apparently finally, at long last, we're going to get a millivinilly biopic. Yeah, did you see these guys that are playing them? No, is it dead on? Oh, I'm texting you right now, dude. Better than Ice Cube's son playing Ice Cube.

Oh, I didn't know that was happening. No, that was in, what was the NWA biopic? Oh, was he in that? Yeah, he played Ice Cube, that was Ice Cube's, uh, what was the NWA bio pick? Oh, was he in that? Yeah, he played ice cube. That was ice cubes kid straight out of count. Oh no, ice cube. I thought, I thought, uh, you said vanilla ice. No, no.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, I can't remember his name. The guy, he was in cocaine beer too. The movie you hated it. Well, I know. Uh, good. Vanilla ice bio pick, by the way, it's called cool as ice. Is that a real thing too?

Yeah, but it's not really a bio pick, but it kind of is. Did you see the picture? Do you have your phone? I do. I'm sorry. Look at these guys. Two unknowns, I think they spent years trying to find the right people, but it's a guy named Elon Bin Ali as fab.

And a guy named Tijon Niji. I'm not sure how to pronounce it. The best I can do. And they look these guys up. They're in costume as Millie Benilli and it's uncanny how much they look like those guys. It definitely is. It's pretty, pretty wow. That's really something. I can't wait to see it. So I hope it's going to be good. And supposedly a lot of people who are involved in the actual band, or their relatives or associate or executive producers on this movie too So it should be pretty authentic. Yeah, I think the icing on top is the executive producer was the Was that guy who runs 300 entertainment now who was the original

lyricist for girl. You know, it's true. Mm-hmm. Pretty amazing. Isn't that cool? Very cool And if you want to see something really cute, when you mean I were doing our Millie Vanilla research on YouTube last night, we ran across a channel called Africa React. And it's this super cute girl who listens to songs that she'd never heard for the first time. And it's just reaction videos.

But one of the ones she did was Girl You Know It's True. And she gave an official thumbs up to it. It's really cute. Yeah, those are fun. You got anything else? Nothing else. All right everybody that means it's time for listener mail I'm gonna call this my husband fell asleep at your show in Boston Hey guys got tickets to the Medford show and excited'm excited to see you folks live for the first time. My husband agreed to join me and met me in Medford after a few days at a work conference in New York. We took our seats and just as the lights went down and

the all appeared on stage, we laughed at your jokes, we oooed at the topic and settled in to be educated. Much to my surprise, I noticed my husband next to me doing the head bob and bouncing, beginning to not off about 10 minutes in. He does off while I did my best to keep cleaning over onto the guy next to us. He finally did wake up after the second commercial break and enjoy the ending. He claims that I've been conditioning him to fall asleep when stuff you should know starts, but I believe it may have been the let down from the excitement of the conference and the work trip. But but we both had a great time wouldn't hesitate to see you live again someday

And thanks so much for taking a trip up north I'm not gonna read Maggie's last name because her husband may be in Barris So that is just for Maggie in the in the northeast Thanks a lot Maggie. That's hilarious the idea of your husband Following a sleep to his normally and then Having it happened in person too because he's so used to. I love it. I love it too. Well if you want to be like Maggie and get in touch with us we love it when people do that. You can send us an email to stuffpodcast.com.

Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows. So, there is a ton of stuff they don't want you to know. Yeah, like does the US government really have alien technology? Or what about the future of AI? What happens when computers actually learn to think? Could there be a serial killer in your town? From UFOs to psychic powers and government cover-ups, from unsolved crimes to the bleeding

edge of science, history is riddled with unexplained events. Listen to stuff they don't want you to know on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you find your favorite shows. It's Tania Sam, host of the Money Moose podcast powered by Greenwood, financial literacy podcast, where we get straight to the steps to financial stability, wealth, and abundance. And we are back for season two with guests like Will Packer, Rich Fresh, and so many more entrepreneurs and experts sharing how they are making their money move. Tune in for new episodes Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to start getting your money moving.

Listen to season two of Money Moves powered by Greenwood on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up y'all. My name is Mimi Walker and I'm your resident auntie Supreme over at Hamming My Purse, the podcast. If you aren't familiar with Hamming My Purse, it's a podcast that's all about diving into and understanding the nuances of black culture from social emotional well-being to cultural matters, mental health, and just the life experiences that we have to face every day. Be sure to tune in every single Tuesday. Listen and follow Hamming My Purse on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.