Stuff You Should Know - The Story of Tavern on the Green

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Tavern on the Green is a legendary NY eatery that has never rated particularly well with food critics. Despite that, it's been a NYC mainstay for decades. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, I'm Jacquees Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit, the podcast for diving deep into the rich world of Black literature. Black Lit is for the page turners, for those who listen to audiobooks while running errands or at the end of a busy day. From thought provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stan. Anya and I met through hockey and now we're married and mom to two awesome toddlers ages two and four.

And we're excited about our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, which talks about everything from pro hockey to professional women's athletes to raising children and all the messiness in between. So listen to Moms Who Puck on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's even here too.

So this is a real deal episode of Stuff You Should Know. Let's go. That's right. Another New York a dish. Yeah, we're putting them out every week now. It's been a while. No, it hasn't. We just did Studio 54 a few weeks back.

Oh, yeah. That's pretty New York. No, I mean, it's super New York. By the way, I went to, I sent you pictures, but I went by Studio 54. I know. I saw that. It was kind of cool. They still have the doors that say Studio 54.

They left a few iconic bits. I was on that sidewalk in front of it trying to imagine people having sex on the sidewalk, and I got really grossed out. Oh, you could envision it? Oh yeah, gosh, you should have picked out a hotter couple maybe in my mind, but didn't do it. No, you got Dan Aykroyd as a wild and crazy guy. I saw that movie too when I was there, by the way.

What movie? The Saturday Night Live movie about the first episode of Saturday Night Live. So you saw in your most recent New York trip, you saw there's a movie out is what you're saying about Saturday Night Live? Yeah, it's Jason Reitman's new movie. It's called Saturday Night.

Oh, well good for him. I like most of his stuff. Yeah, if you're a fan of SNL, the movie is good enough, I think. Did they portray Chevy Chase like my dad taught me to think of him? The guy who played Chevy Chase was great. Okay. Yeah.

Was it Chevy Chase? Chevy Chase Jr. Oh, God. Junior? It's like when Ice Cube got his son to play him because he looks just like him, it was pretty perfect. That kid did really well until the hospital scene,

where Eazy-E's dying. Up until that moment, I was like, this kid's pretty good for an amateur. Yeah. And even after that, too. It was just, like, one brief moment, and it can be forgiving. Yeah. I mean, how do you think you would do

in an Eazy-E death scene, huh, Mr. Big Shot? I would, uh, I'd be pretty over. Yeah, I mean, how do you think you would do in an easy death scene? Huh? Mr. Big Shot? I would, I'd be pretty over the top, I think. Easy! Yeah, pounding on the walls and sobbing. Uh, yeah, we were both just decided at the same time, it's time to get on with the episode, huh? Yeah, enough of that.

So Chuck, we're talking about Tavern on the Green, and I know for So Chuck, we're talking about Tavern on the Green, and I know for a fact that we're talking about Tavern on the Green because you recently dined at Tavern on the Green, and after reading all of this stuff, I actually am, I'm curious to know what you thought of it because I'm curious, that's why. Let's just leave it at that. What, have you been?

Did I ask you that? You didn't and no, so no to both of those. Okay. How about this? I'll save my review of the experience till the end. I think that's a great plan. Just to tantalize listeners. So let's go, well, we'll tell everybody,

if you're not familiar with Tavern on the Green, it's a legendary restaurant, in part because of its location. It's in one of the better restaurant locations in the United States. It's on Central Park. It's actually a part of Central Park. So much so that the city's Parks Department actually owns the restaurant. They just lease it out to different operators who want to try their hand at making it like the premier dining establishment in

Manhattan. And at multiple times, it has been exactly that. But what a lot of people don't know, especially if you're not familiar with the restaurant, is that it actually started out as a sheep enclosure. Sheep used to sleep in Tavern on the Green. Yeah, you know, I think that the fact that it's owned by the Parks Department is the fact of the episode. I had no idea until yesterday.

Okay, yeah. It's definitely up there for sure in this one. Yeah, but Sheepfold is a sheep enclosure. And for the first 60 years or so, that's what Tavern on the Green was, like you said. Just as a sort of a quick recap, if you wanna listen to our Central Park episode about the history of Central Park, it's well worth a listen. But when Frederick Law Olmsted and Calvert Vaux designed Central Park, they won a contest in 1858, a design contest for their Greensward plan. part of the plan called for a parade ground and a very big playground right at 66th Street

on the west side of the park. Yeah, and the thing took so long to build. I think they were awarded the contract for their plan in 1858. And by 1870, they were still building this. And they were like, parade grounds are so 1850s. We don't want one of those anymore. Yeah.

We're gonna go, we're gonna turn it into a sheep meadow instead, because apparently sheep were all the rage at the time. And I think that actually goes to show, even by the 1870s, New York was so urbanized that people yearned for kind of a pastoral setting, so much so that they made a sheep meadow with sheep in the middle of Manhattan in Central Park so that people could come, you know,

take in the sheep. Yeah, it will not take them into the house. Visually. Yeah. We talked a lot about Boss Tweed, obviously, anytime we're talking about this period, this era of New York. Boss Tweed ran the city, and his cronies got involved with the Central Park Planning Board

and said, all right, we're going to do some upgrades, $6 million worth, in fact, which is a ton of money back then and today. But one of the new additions was a really fancy sheepfold at 67th and Central Park West that was really beautiful. It was designed by Jacob Ray Mould, one of the guys who designed a lot of the actual buildings there in Central Park, of which there are not a ton of, but they all have a distinct sort of, they're all sort of like made of stone and they all are really kind of classy and old school looking. Neo-Gothic. Yeah, Neo-Gothic. He was really into that Gothic revival stuff.

So, Moll designed this beautiful sheepfold and people would, like you said, they would come, it was almost like an interactive little museum. They could come and look at the sheep, they could come and touch different varieties of wool. They would shear those sheep and sell that wool in a big event every year. And it was like, like you said, it was like, hey, are you tired of the city? You can go watch those beautiful Dorset sheep and touch their, almost said fur, their wool. Right, good catch. Yeah, New York loves its unofficial mascots.

It loves adopting mascots, and I get the impression that that flock of sheep was one of them at the time. So they lived there from the 1870s up until 1934, and they were moved to Prospect Park in Brooklyn, from the 1870s up until 1934. And they were moved to Prospect Park in Brooklyn. I read somewhere that one of the rumors about that move was that Hooverville, basically a tenement camp that was set up by people during the depression to survive in, they were worried that they were

gonna start poaching sheep. So they moved them from Central Park to Prospect Park to protect the sheep. I believe that. But there's a couple of things about that sheep enclosure that became Tavern on the Green. One of the things was that the Central Park Zoo, sometimes they would have extra animals, I guess more than they could care for. So they would put them in the sheep enclosure temporarily until they could find someone to sell it to.

And at one point there was a puma in there with the sheep, and I'm quite sure the sheep did not like that at all. Yeah, that probably wasn't a good move. They did enjoy their home, because this thing in 1871 cost $70,000 to build. Yeah. And like I said, it was a beautiful building. They had these pavilions built for people to sit in, to watch, and these pavilions had

these bucolic pastoral murals. And it was just a lovely little scene there. They even had, of course, a shepherd. The last one to work there, worked there for the final two decades until 1934. His name was Frank Hoey. And he watched over the herd and lived there. And in 1934, that's like you said, when everything changed, when Parks Commissioner Robert Moses, very famous New York figure, said, you know what? This sheepfold should be a restaurant.

Yeah. And should be is a weird way to put it because when he announced it, they'd already started construction on converting it to a restaurant. That was a, uh, like a tried and true Robert Moses trick where, um, he's, he's well known by the way is over developing and paving, um, New York City, often through vital neighborhoods. Yeah. Um, but that was just, that was standard Robert Moses stuff. developing and paving New York City, often through vital neighborhoods. Yeah. Um, but that was just, that was standard Robert Moses stuff.

Like, well, well, we've already started. If you don't like the idea, sorry, we've already started and spent money on it. What are we going to do now? Yeah. His, I think his, uh, big slogan was by the way. Exactly. Did I mention? Yeah.

Did I mention? So this was, uh, I think in February 1934, the announcement came out. The New York Times read, sheepfold and park to become Tavern. CWA workers converting old building into a picturesque popular restaurant. Prices to be moderate.

Yeah. And then they also said the remodeled building will be known in the future as Tavern on the Green. And within reach of the average purse was sort of the working, not slogan, but just they wanted to make it affordable. It wouldn't turn out, it would end up being, I guess for the time, a pretty expensive restaurant,

I think once it hit the 60s and 70s, but we'll get there. Now it's, you know, it's a New York restaurant, so it's not cheap, but it's not like some super, super expensive place. Yeah, I was surprised to see that. I read a 2014 restaurant review and it opened up again in its current incarnation, and they were talking about like $30 main dishes.

And that is not bad. You can't find that in any city. Yeah, exactly. I was, yeah, surprised to hear that. But I found an old menu from maybe the 50s. They were selling martinis for like 85 cents. Not on sale. This was not a happy hour price.

This was their regular menu. Yeah, yeah, I know. Can you imagine how much trouble we would get into? Yeah, exactly. Just get the change purse out and live your life. Yes. So one part of the announcement then said this. The Park Department will not undertake

the management of the restaurant, but will let it, as in lease it, to an outside concessionaire by public bidding. And that started sort of a very unusual arrangement, wherein New York City would be the landlord of Tavern on the Green, and people would, you know, bid for the contracts, and not only bid for the contracts, but pay a pretty hefty licensing fee to do so. Yeah, that's a big one too. They would pay in incense like myrrh and gold coin

as tribute to the city. Didn't believe that one. Good. So they seem to, the city of New York also seems to have gotten some free labor out of the deal from the federal government because the Civil Works Administration, which is a federal agency during the Depression that put out of work Americans to work in revamping infrastructure, you know, all the stuff we do today, they

actually converted the sheepfold to the Tavern on the Green. They paved the place where the sheep used to eat with flagstones, so it was converted to an outdoor dining area. You could also dance there. People wouldn't look at you weird if you did. And because it seems to have been an outdoor dining venue only, in its first incarnation in the 30s, Dave helped us with this,

and he tried to do some digging and I think he's right that it was open only during the summer because it was too cold to eat outside in the winter in New York. Yeah. And they called it Tavern on the Green because New York had a rich tradition of taverns in their past. In the 1700s, they had more taverns per capita than any city in the world. And something else called pleasure gardens were popular in the 18th century,

where you could, you know, have a drink and do some dancing in a very pastoral park-like setting. And so Tavern on the Green was kind of a throwback to like, hey, you know, a throwback to the days of the 18th century. Yeah, and I read a little more on it, I think on Curbed, or I think it was Curbed, where they were talking about how those taverns were, those pleasure gardens often sprouted from taverns. So taverns played a really big role on creating green space.

That's awesome. Even as far back as the 18th century, like that's how much New York was starving for green space that you would have to like hang out at a tavern to do it. So I thought that was pretty cool as a nod to that tradition. Well, their paved space was covered in horse crap.

So I mentioned green space was a nice respite. Right. Yeah, and if you brought a horse to the tavern, people would get really mad. Oh man, can you imagine? You want to take a break? Yeah, that's a great setup. And then we'll pick back up in the 1930s right after this. Hey everyone, this is Courtney Thorne-Smith, Laura Leighton, and Daphne Zuniga.

On July 8, 1992, apartment buildings with pools were never quite the same as Melrose Place was introduced to the world. It took drama and mayhem to an entirely new level. We are going to be reliving every hookup, every scandal, every backstab, blackmail and explosion, and every single wig removal together. Secrets are revealed as we re-watch every moment with you. Special guests from back in the day will be dropping by. You know who they are. Sydney, Alison and Joe are back together on Still the Place with a trip down memory lane and back to Melrose Place. So listen to Still the Place on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm Marie. And I'm Sydney. And we're MESS. Well, not a mess, but on our podcast called MESS, we celebrate all things messy. But the gag is not everything is a mess. Sometimes it's just living. Yeah, things like JLo on her third divorce. Living.

Girls trip to Miami. Mess. Ozempic. Messy, skinny, living. Restaurants stealing a birthday cake. Mess. Wait, what flavor was the cake, though? OK, that's a good question.

Hooking up with someone in accounting and then getting a promotion. Living. Breaking up with your girlfriend while on Instagram Live. Living. Living. It's kind of mess. Yeah. Well, you get it.

Got it? Live, love, mess. Listen to Mess with Sydney Washington and Marie Faustin on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there. I'm Dr. Maya Shanker, a cognitive scientist who studies human behavior. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, I marry science and storytelling to better understand how to navigate the big changes in our lives.

It was like a slow nightmare, you know, because every day you think, oh, surely tomorrow I'll be better. And I would dream of being better. At night, I would dream that my face was, quote unquote, normal or back to the way it was. And I'd wake up and there'd be no change. I also speak with scientists about how we can be more resilient in the face of change.

You can think of the adolescent brain as like this social R&D engine of our culture. Something that looks like risky and idiotic to us is maybe their way of creatively trying to solve the problem of having social success and fewer of the things that bring you social failure. Listen to a slight change of plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. podcast. So the whole thing started in the 30s when they converted the sheepfold into the Tavern

on the Green. And it was eventually like it didn't last for very long as a tavern, or maybe this was during the Winter Chuck. It was taken over by the headquarters of the City Patrol Corps during the 40s. During World War II, a lot of the police officers around America went off to war. They still need police back in America, so they got volunteers actually from the people who were still in the country.

And apparently they made their headquarters at Tavern on the Green. And then in 1943, things really started to swing. I think it was kind of an unusual, peculiar place up until this point. And in 1943, it like really starts to become Tavern on the Green as we understand it today. Yeah, cause you know, New York grew from the south upward.

And this was way up at 66th, 67th Street. So yeah, it might've taken a while for that to become legitimized. But yeah, 43 is when it really kind of started the, I was about to say nonstop operation as restaurant. But as we'll see, that would be interrupted later on as well. But it's at this point that it became year round open,

dancing, dining, cocktailing, drinking three shots of gin for 85 cents, I guess. And it was doing pretty good, you know. It was one of the most popular restaurants in the 1950s. They expanded it from 10,000 square feet to more than double to 21,000, including the very famous Elm Tree Room, which they built around one of the famous live Elm Trees. And including the indoor and outdoor space, they could seat more than, or up to 1,200 guests.

Wow, that's a lot of people. Lot of folks. I looked all over for a picture of that Elm Tree Room with the Elm Tree. Me too. There's a real dearth of like vintage photos of Tavern on the Green. You'd think they'd be all over the internet, but they're not.

Yeah, and I'm sure you ran into what I did, which is tons of articles about that other elm right next to the outdoor dining that was recently cut down. I didn't see that, no. They cut down an elm tree, huh? Yeah, it was a 160-year-old elm, and I think that it was like this summer

that had some kind of blight, and unfortunately they had to take it down. But that was not, I don't think, the elm from the elm tree room. Okay, okay, good. Pretty sure. So by 1950, the Tavern on the Green was enough on the map as far as like,

like nightlife in the United States went. Like popular culture was well enough aware of Tavern on the Green that they were able to sell a live album called Dancing at the Tavern on the Green to Milt Saunders and his orchestra. And if you see the, did you see the cover of that thing? Oh man, it is, they might as well have just stamped the numbers 1950 on the cover and left it at that.

It's pretty great. But that was like, they sold that record because people who couldn't make it to Tavern on the Green would want to buy that and impress their friends. Yeah, totally. This is where they first started wrapping the trees with those white lights, which is one of the sort of signature Tavern on the Green things.

Yeah, I saw there up to 10 miles of lights now. Yeah, I mean, I will say this, spoiler alert for my ultimate review. It is a very beautiful place to die. Yeah, I believe that. Still. In 56, a very interesting thing happened in its history when Robert Moses found himself up against some Manhattan mommies when he said, hey, I need a bigger parking lot, so I'm going

to use this half acre over here that, yeah, sure, there are a lot of kids that like playing over there, but we need some parking. And the moms took it very seriously, and they got their kids, informed a human barricade to block bulldozers, got in a real fight with Moses. He built a fence to try and keep them out. The moms got an injunction, and uncharacteristically, Moses backed down

and abandoned that and set aside $50,000 for a new playground that's still there today. Yeah, the West 67th Street Adventure Play playground, which if you see like vintage photos of it from the sixties, they're like mounds made of stone that like, I could just see a kid slipping on and cracking his head open with like, they looked really dangerous, but I think they've kind of converted them into something a little more safe today. But yeah, it's really neat that the tradition of playgrounds that generation after generation of kids

have played on. Totally. So, um, the first notable restaurateur that took over, I think the first restaurant tours that took over was in the forties and they owned the Claremont Inn and it was a super stuffy, um, well-heeled dining place on the Hudson. They're the first notable ones,

but the first actual restaurateur who people had already heard of. His name was Joe Baum, and this is in the 60s that he took over the lease of Tavern on the Green. And he was known as the Cecil B. DeMille of restaurateurs, which was really saying something in the 60s. Yeah, and for good reason. He ran not only Tavern on the Green,

but the windows of the world, atop the World Trade Center eventually, the Rainbow Room, the world famous Rainbow Room, and the Four Seasons, which at the time when this dude, when Joe Baum was running these, they were the four highest grossing restaurants in Manhattan and they were all his.

Yeah. It's remarkable. Yeah, I mean that's a Cecil B. DeMille type. Yeah. It's remarkable. Yeah. I mean, that's a Cecil B. DeMille type. Yeah. And if you don't know who that is, look him up. Right. Yeah.

So he did a really good job of putting it on the map. And like we said, by 1950, it was already part of popular culture. But I think this guy really turned it into something genuinely special for the first time. But I think most people who know about the history of Tavern on the Green would agree that it didn't really become like a gem of a restaurant, bejeweled even, until Warner LeRoy came along in I think 1974. Yeah, and he came along at a good time because through the 60s and 70s it was doing okay,

but it started to feel a little bit dated. And then by the time the 70s rolled around, Central Park had become, I don't know, how legitimately dangerous it was, but it became dangerous enough to where it was sort of part of the national punchline, as far as like, yeah, go to Central Park if you want to get mugged, that kind of thing. And so, you know, the restaurant fell on harder times. And Joe Baum was calling it the Tavern in the Red.

And in 1974, like you said, Warner Leroy took over. He's a former theater director. And this guy had a, to say he had a flair is sort of understating things. He ran a bar for a while called Maxwell's Plum. Oh my God, have you seen pictures of that? God, just gorgeous restaurant. Just heaven.

Maybe over the top, I don't know about Gaudi or not. I mean, I think it looks like an amazing place to have a martini, but it did get some like bad reviews for just how sort of kaleidoscopic and gaudy it was. Did you see the picture of the actual bar bar? Oh yeah. Oh my God, dude. It looked just amazing.

But also the dining room, it was just cool too. Like they had low ceilings with Tiffany, lit Tiffany plated glass hanging down or covering them. It's just amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I loved Maxwell's plum. I would have loved it too.

Um, it turns out also Carrie Grant, Warren Beatty, Barbara Streisand, they all loved Maxwell plum, all the best people. And one of the things that, um, that Warner Leroy was known for that he made his name for at Maxwell's Plum, was having a really eclectic menu that was also not exclusionary. He wanted to make sure that basically anybody could come and like enjoy a meal at his place.

And he also didn't have a dress code either. That was a big one too. He wanted you to just feel comfortable. So he had on Maxwell Plumb's menu, everything from merrini and caviar to hamburgers, I believe. Yeah, there's a place in Atlanta. God, what is the name of it? I haven't been there, but the theme of the restaurant

is that it's got like five or six different distinct cuisines. Hmm. And that's like what it's got like five or six different distinct cuisines. And that's like what it's known for. And it's even in the name of the restaurant, I can't remember what it's called. Oh, Six Cuisines over on West Peachtree. Right. That's a good one.

Thanks. You got me. I can't remember. Anyway, I'll look it up and let you know. Yeah, please do let me know. But you're right. So Maxwell's Plum was kind of a wacky place. He took over Tavern on the Green, and he brought that same kind of flashiness there.

He had a quote where he said, a restaurant is a fantasy, kind of living theater in which diners are the most important members of the cast. It's one of the few creations that appeal to all of the senses, and one with which I can create my own world. So he spent 10 million bucks on a restaurant he doesn't own renovating this thing to, you know, in his own sort of flashy style. So did you see that New Yorker review that I sent you? Yeah.

Did you see them describing what they did on opening day in 1976? Yeah. So you see them describing what they did on opening day in 1976? Yeah. So I say take it, man. Well, I don't have it in front of me. Can you take it? Sure. So they had the world's largest sundae,

7,250 pounds of Neapolitan ice cream. There was a nine liter bottle of champagne that had been flown over from France. It had its own first class seat on Air France. And then there was a 16 foot model of Central Park as a cake. This is what Warner LeRoy did. I also saw that he was known for wearing taffeta suits

or sequin suits. So yeah, he was flashy to the nines. He was also the son of the legendary producer of The Wizard of Oz, Mervyn LeRoy, which explains Warner LeRoy's daughter's name. Oh, is it Dorothy? No, that'd be great. No, her name is Jennifer Oz LeRoy.

Oh, right, okay. Yeah, that's called family tradition right there. I really thought it would be Dorothy. It kinda should've been. Dorothy Red Shoes Leroy. Or what's the witch in Wicked? I don't know. We went and saw Wicked, what, Euphaba? Euphala? Euphaba?

I don't know. That's what Emily went as for Halloween. Anyway. The Green Witch from Wicked. That would have been a good name too. That's the Wicked Witch of the West, I think. Yeah, but she had a name. Chandeliers were brought in. He brought in 15 chefs from France. He brought these chandeliers in straight from India.

And then built the very famous, some may say infamous, Crystal Room, which was a very sort of over-the-top room full of crystals. It was, you know, made of glass. That was the building, if you've seen the very first Ghostbusters, when Rick Moranis runs up and bangs on the window before getting attacked. That is the Crystal Room.

And that's the part that I couldn't figure out. Like, the room I ate in was all glass as well. And I think it was just a read, sort of a different version of what that was. Exactly, yes. They completely altered it for sure. It wasn't like it was in the 80s where it was like in its heyday.

It was also in other movies, Arthur. One of my favorites. It was in Beaches, the scene where they win that dance contest against the gangsters that are chasing them. Yeah. Ton of movies. Yeah.

It's really a well-known dining room. But yeah, it's not there anymore. And one of the reasons why is because over the years, Warner Leroy's taste started to kind of seem a little tacky. So yeah. But I think now, if they had just preserved it, people, Roy's taste started to kind of seem a little tacky. Yeah. So, yeah. But I think now if they had just preserved it, people, I think more people would flock to it just because of the vintage thing, you know?

Well now they would because, yeah, that kind of campy, kitschy thing is appreciated. But at the time, not everyone appreciated it. Semi-recently, I guess when it reopened, they kind of looked back. And a guy named Pete Wells, a former restaurant critic for the New York Times, described that original crystal room as a wedding cake palace as imagined by a six-year-old princess with a high fever. That is great. And if you want to read great turns of phrase, just read restaurant reviews. They are so cruel, but in the funniest ways.

And that, that whole, that whole review from 2014 is just hilarious, but also like you just feel bad at the same time for laughing at it. Yeah, totally. So, um, under Warner Leroy's, uh, steerage, like this is when Tavern on the Green became like the place where Patrick Bateman would want like a seat. And apparently the managers made pretty good money on the side, accepting bribes to seat people in the crystal room.

It was like the place to be. Um, and, and not just the eighties, but also through the nineties too. So the whole place was riding high. not just the 80s, but also through the 90s too. So the whole place was riding high. As a matter of fact, I think in the 90s, it was the highest grossing independent restaurant in the United States, Tavern on the Green was. Yeah, they had revenues annually

of more than 40 million bucks, seating more than 600,000 diners a year, which is a staggering number of people. He got a pretty good deal. It was one of these things where when he came in, the Central Park was kind of dangerous. And like I said, the restaurant was on hard dimes. So he was really in the driver's seat as far as sort of saying like, hey, give me a pretty good deal, Mayor Ed Koch.

And he was pretty desperate. The mayor was and the city was, so they let him build that crystal room without getting the necessary permit, which was apparently pretty expensive. And they said, you only have to pay 1.2 million for the license fee, which apparently is a lot cheaper than the arrangement he had with Baum. Yeah. And also, apparently the Crystal Room expansion was illegal under municipal codes, and they looked the other way

with them not getting a building permit to build it. Like they really were sinking a lot of faith into Tavern on the Green, bringing in a lot of revenue for the city, not just through the licensing fees, but people traveling to New York, in part to go dine at Tavern on the Green. That was like the way that it was viewed. Yeah.

Should we take another break? Yeah. All right. We'll take another break and we'll come back and continue through the 80s and 90s right after this. Hey everyone, this is Courtney Thorne-Smith, Laura Leighton, and Daphne Zuniga. On July 8, 1992, apartment buildings with pools were never quite the same as Melrose Place was introduced to the world. It took drama and mayhem to an entirely new level. We are going to be reliving every hookup, every scandal, every backstab,

blackmail and explosion, and every single wig removal together. Secrets are revealed as we rewatchwatch every moment with you. Special guests from back in the day will be dropping by. You know who they are. Sydney, Allison and Joe are back together on Still the Place with a trip down memory lane and back to Melrose Place. So listen to Still the Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hi, I'm Marie. And I'm Sydney. And we're MESS. Well, not a mess, but on our podcast called MESS, we celebrate all things messy.

But the gag is not everything is a mess. Sometimes it's just living. Yeah, things like JLo on her third divorce. Living. Girls trip to Miami. Mess. Ozempic. Messy, skinny living.

Restaurants stealing a birthday cake. Mess. Wait, what flavor was the cake though? Okay, that's a good question. Hooking up with someone in accounting and then getting a promotion. Living. Breaking up with your girlfriend while on Instagram live. Living. It's kind of mess. Yeah. Well, you get it. Got it. Live, love, mess. Listen to Mess with Sydney

Washington and Marie Faustin on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, a cognitive scientist who studies human behavior. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, I marry science and storytelling to better understand how to navigate the big changes in our lives. It was like a slow nightmare, you know, because every day you think, oh, surely tomorrow I'll be better. And I would dream of being better.

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Listen to a slight change of plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. So another fact of Tavern on the Green at the time was that Leroy had a staff that was not unionized. So he paid pretty low wages for a long, long time. It took a walkout in 1989 over that low pay for the workers to finally get with the union, the New York Hotel and Motels Trade Council. But they were rolling in dough at the time so they could afford those wages. And they were doing pretty well until 2001. First of all, Warner Leroy died, very sadly, in February of that year.

Then 9-11 happened, which put a dent on New York City as a whole. And that's when Jennifer Oz-LaRoy, Oz-Dorothy Greenwich-LaRoy had taken over. But it just wasn't happening. They just could not recapture that magic. The restaurant was never very well reviewed for the food and it was starting to kind of matter because people weren't going just for the experience and food was a just a much bigger deal and there were plenty of great restaurants by then. So the restaurant just kind of fell off by the mid-2000s. I saw in Town and Country magazine the go-to source for facts about New York nightlife. Yeah.

They said that the New York Times reviewed over like 23 years or something like that. The New York Times reviewed Tavern on the Green five times and it never got more than one out of four stars. That's mean. Like that sounds like a vendetta almost, you know? I do think it had a bit of a bullseye on it. I'm not saying like the food was ever like great and it was just really unfairly reviewed,

but I do think it was definitely a restaurant that critics wanted to kind of poke a hole in. Yeah. It's just mean. Yeah, I know. So I think in 2009, there was a lawsuit in 2008 against the management for sexual and racial harassment of female black and Hispanic employees. It's not a good look for your restaurant.

And then the next year, the Parks Department said, we're kind of done with the Leroy family. I think you guys have run your course. And they decided not to renew their 20 year license with the family. And so they announced that they would be taking bids and probably assumed that this was going to be the revamping regeneration, a revitalization of tavern on the green. And it turns out that no one would go near it.

They were like, I don't know, man, that place has a pretty bad reputation and it's gonna cost a lot to bring it back to its glory. And it sat unused for five years, I think. Yeah, from 2010 to 2014, it was- Five years. Not a restaurant. And like you said, it was just, it was a big risk because it was a big, expensive undertaking. It had never had a great reputation.

I think it was always the target of critics. And so no one would go in. I think they tried a couple of times. There was a guy named Dean Pohl who ran the Central Park Boathouse restaurant. He tried to negotiate a good deal with the trade union, couldn't do it for six months. So he backed out, other bidders were scared away. And so while it was vacant, Mayor Bloomberg said, well, let's make it a gift shop. So it was an information center and a center and tourist shop. And, you know, there are a lot of people that are like, just this once, sort of, at least great,

I don't know if a great restaurant, but great New York City landmark has now been turned into a tchotchke shop where some of the complaints. So finally, in 2012, the city said, all right, Philly, step in. We love you down there. New York City light. What have you got for us?

And Jim Kaola and David Salama from Philly got the bid to reopen the Tavern by investing $10 million to sort of get rid of Leroy's flashy thing and say, let's take it back to the old school 19th century Tavern look. Yeah, and they really did. The actual like bar bar tavern area they did a great job with apparently they brought in architects who were good with Discovering the actual historic part of any structure, and they did that they stripped it down to its cathedral Beams the original ones in the ceiling so I'll bet that looked pretty cool. It does. The bar was studded with brass nail heads,

is that correct? Yep, I saw brass nail heads. It's just like in the original stone fireplace, the original copper gutters, they were all just, they were just brought to the fore. And so the tavern vibe of the tavern itself from what I read they just nailed it It was the crystal room revamped that I saw the most criticized

No, really. I don't remember who said it might have been Pete Wells Who said that it resembles an all-day casual dining option at a family-friendly resort in Florida? casual dining option at a family-friendly resort in Florida? Uh, disagree. Okay. Well, you're disagreeing with Pete Wells, not me. I'm just reading a quote here that I found pithy. No, I know. It is. It's, that is pithy. Because that room, it is a glass room with, that looks out onto the courtyard with those lights.

It's a wonderful room to dine in. Gotcha. Maybe it was because the serving staff has to wear Bermuda shorts and golf shirts tucked in. Yeah, the Flamingo Kid. That bar area is gorgeous though. The two guys from Philly, Kaola and Salama, were, some say cronies, the city sweetened the deal a bit.

Bloomberg put a lot of pressure on the trade unions to give them a two-year break from having to sign a labor contract and to defer that licensing fee for five years, which is a lot of money. And it turns out that Kaola's sister was married to, and I think still is, to a guy named Kevin Sheeke, who was Bloomberg's former deputy mayor and an executive at Bloomberg Software Company. But he was like, that's all just coincidence. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's a couple of coincidences layered on top of each other, you know?

That's New York for you. So one of the big parts about the reopening in 2014, which New York was excited about, I mean this was an icon that had been shut down and no one was sure when or if it was gonna come back. One of the things they did was they went through and took all of those amazing decorations that Warner LeRoy had installed and they auctioned them off.

Like you could get silverware, dinnerware. You could get some of the original copper weather vanes they auctioned off for some reason. Those chandeliers from the Indian Maharaja. You could buy those too. It sounded like it was a heck of an auction and they actually held it in the crystal room. Wow.

Yeah, I would have liked to have known about that. Yeah, I'd buy a fork. For sure. For sure. So, they opened in 2014 and immediately, every single outlet in New York panned the food. Right. Like, just panned it.

Yeah, here they go again. Some quotes, comatose potato salad. Roasted quail that's as dry as a week old English muffin. They're all just so pithy. Yeah. New York Magazine said that the salad is the kind that you would get at a third rate country club, which Tavern on the Green pretty much is.

Oh, man. That's pretty bad. Not even just a country club, a third rate country club. I mean they're just being mean I haven't seen any recent reviews I know that the executive chef who was running the place when it opened Katie Sparks she left after I think like six months or something like that and From the restaurant reviews I read they were were saying like, it's kind of understandable, like they're, they're creating these really extravagant dishes,

at least on paper for seatings of like 700 people. And it's really hard to get well-made hot food out to tables when you're serving 700 people at a seating. So they were at least a little bit understanding, but I haven't read a recent review of Tavern on the Green and its food. Yeah. So we're gonna have to rely on you I guess is what I'm saying. Well here's my review. It was fine. It wasn't like the food was bad. It was like,

oh this is gross. But it's you know, it it's just, I mean, I'm looking at the menu here, we can read through some of these things. Appetizers, there's a crab cake, there's a calamari salad, there's a country salad, honey roasted figs, that sounds pretty good. Sure, steak of Dorset sheep. No, oh man. Burrata with hearth roasted grape tomatoes, it's all pretty standard stuff. And then if you move on to the mains,

you've got some diver sea scallops, Scottish salmon for 38 bucks, grilled whole fish for 46 bucks, rack of lamb, you know, fairly pedestrian. I think I, if I'm not mistaken, I had the lemon thyme chicken under a brick. Did you get to keep the brick? Didn't get to keep the brick. It was a real tavern on the green brick from the old sheep's hold.

Or sheep's hold. That came with blistered green beans, mashed potatoes, and a jus for 35 bucks. And it was like, it was pretty good chicken. Okay. But you know, truffle fries, shrimp cocktail, it's, the menu is not, not a third rate country club. Right. But I didn't go in there expecting like New York's finest

meal, I went there for the experience. We were in Central Park and that, you know, you can walk right over there. I'd always wanted to go, it was a bucket list thing. And now I can say I've been. And I would very much recommend to have that experience if it's something that piques your interest. If it's like, I've always wanted to try Tavern on Green,

go try it for sure. Yeah, I think that's how New York Magazine concluded their review. They're like, it's a once in a lifetime thing. Yeah, go once. Yeah, that's pretty much what they said. They even said if that, so. Yeah.

Hopefully it's gotten a little better. It sounds like it's gotten better. Was the food warm? The food was warm, the service was good. Okay, those are two things that definitely got called out in those 2014 reviews. Yeah, my martini was good. Nice.

Was it 85 cents? It's definitely touristy. Like I didn't expect the ghost of John Lennon and Warren Beatty to come wandering in. So it feels a little touristy, but it was good. It was fine. I recommend if you've never been to New York and you think you're into the touristy thing,

go for sure. If you go to New York a ton and you've never been, like give it a shot for one of your meals. You can always go eat somewhere better the next night. Okay. Okay. But it's cool, it's worth going to. It's kind of like a Russian tea room.

I've never been there, but I wanna try it. Just haven't you been there? No, I've never been. I think that was also a Warner-Leroy joint. Okay, I thought you had been there for some reason, but like I wanna try that out just to sort of say that I've been there and know what that experience is like. Same here.

I've got some dining to do. Yeah. Okay, well, you got anything else about Tavern on the Green? I do not. Well, thanks for sharing, Chuck. That was very nice. Sure. And since Chuck said sure, as everyone knows, that just unlocked Listener Mail.

You know, in lieu of listener mail, we're gonna do another shout out to our friends at Co-Ed because they have a very special thing going. You've heard us talk about Co-Ed before. They're our friends that run the nonprofit down in Guatemala to help break the cycle of poverty through education and they do really, really great stuff and they're doing a special stuff you should know,

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Stuff You Should Know listeners alone. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And here's the incentive too. If you set up your gift by giving Tuesday, which is December 3rd, you can get a chance to have a virtual hangout with us on Zoom. We do that every year. It's a lot of fun. We hang out with us on Zoom. We do that every year. It's a lot of fun. We hang out with a handful of folks on Zoom and, you know, we can attest to Co-Ed. They're a great organization.

We know them personally. We went to Guatemala and saw the work firsthand and they are walking the walk down there. For sure. Yeah, and if you want to know more about the whole program, we did a two-parter on Co-Ed where we went to Guatemala and you can hear Jerry give a heartfelt speech in it. That's right, the real Jerry. So yeah, go forth and go to cooperativeforeducation.org slash S-Y-S-K and donate 20 bucks a month. And we appreciate it, coed appreciates it, and the kids in Guatemala appreciate it

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