Stuff You Should Know - The Strange Story of Lysol

Episode Date: October 3, 2024

The Lysol we know now is sold as disinfectant only. But at one time it was also marketed as a means of birth control. Listen in today to the twisted history of this common household product. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey y'all, Nimmini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, the Story Pirates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Se Cup, and I've spent my career interviewing people about politics, presidential

elections, and some really tough breaking news. But now I need a break. I think you do too. So on my new podcast, Off the Cup, I'll still be interviewing people, usually famous and most likely my friends, but about life. You know, the stuff that consumes us when we're not consumed by politics. So come join me every Wednesday for some conversational self-care. Listen to Off the Cup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and that's just us. I almost said Jerry's here too, but she's not. Instead, it's just us. I already said that too. And this is but she's not. Instead, it's just us. I already said that too. And this is stuff you should know. That's right, and this was a listener suggestion.

So we wanted to thank Holland Lamir, who wrote in and said, guys, I don't know if you know anything about the history of Lysol, the disinfectant, but it has a pretty fascinating, weird history. And I think it would make a good episode. And I think Holland was right on the money. Yeah, also thanks to our buddy Kyle Hoekstra,

our British writer, holding it down in the UK for us, who helped us out with this one too. That's right. I love Kyle's articles because they are all metric. And there's even some quaint British spellings. He's like, I'm not gonna Americanize it for you, Trumps. Just figure it out. Oh, you like your Z's? T-S for you. Here's an S. Aluminium.

Yeah. So, yeah, so we're talking today about Lysol. Who was that? Holland? Great name. Yeah. Holland suggested this. And for those of you who don't know, Lysol is a leading disinfectant brand in the West. I think it's like the third best-selling disinfectant in the United States. It's Lysol, you know what I'm talking about, right? I do.

Sure, I think most people do. I think so. And Lysol had a recent, I think most people do. I think so. And Lysol had a recent, I guess a big jolt in its history, as most disinfectants did, thanks to the pandemic, the COVID pandemic of 2020 and 2021, where its sales just went through the roof.

Apparently, it increased its sales by 12% in just one year. And they were producing 35 million cans, just the cans of Lysol in North America alone every month. That's how crazy people were for Lysol. And yet, when the pandemic went away, people kind of put their Lysol away as well and their sales started to go down. And as we'll see, that's actually

kind of a their lice all the way as well in their sales story to go down. And as we'll see, that's actually kind of a good thing, probably. Yeah. And this is not a takedown or anything. This is just, we're going to talk about some interesting history. We'll talk a little bit about how, how all disinfectants work. And we might even suggest some alternatives. You bet your sweet pippy. So the question of why do you want to disinfect

something in your house in the first place is valid. Well, it's because if you subscribe to the germ theory, then you might think that disinfecting surfaces might kill a virus that might be in your house. So that's a reason right there. For sure. I mean, that's the point of disinfectants, right? And the way, let's talk real quick

about how they actually work, because I find this fascinating. Yeah, it's on a cellular level, right? Sure. So there's a bunch of different ingredients in disinfectants like Lysol, but some of them are more active than others. But you can overlook one in favor of another, because when you turn around and look, you're like, oh, that does this, that does this, that kills this, that kills this. But if you put all of it together, you have a disinfectant that can kill microbes, that can kill viruses.

A lot of them are antifungal, they're just, they just kill. Like you said, on a cellular level. And one of the ways that they do that, one of the main ways they do it is by disrupting whatever outer layer that microbe or that virus has that protects its innards. And by doing that, its innards spill out, go through all sorts of horrible transformations and the, the, the bacteria or virus is like, ugh, A2 Lysol. That's right.

And Lysol works like, you know, all disinfectants by doing that. But Lysol specifically developed one of the first quats, Q-U-A-T-S. We've talked about quats before in terms of like pesticides, I think, probably. Oh yeah? I feel like we've talked about that. Okay, I believe you, I just don't know if you're familiar. But they introduced a QUAT in its formula in the 1880s, a long, long time ago.

QUATS are, it's short for, it's actually technically QAC, but it's spelled out QUAT because it's a quaternary ammonium compound. And what they introduced in the 1880s was one called benzylconium chloride, a pretty active ingredient these days in disinfectants. Very potent, all quats are very potent against germs at pretty low concentrations. I think is about 2.4 percent is a sweet spot. But like you said, you combine these with other stuff and you're in business. In this case, if you combine it with alcohol, there's a change that happens

that makes it kill things faster, kill more things. and Lysol doesn't use that one anymore. They use a different one now though, right? Yeah, it's evolved into benzalkonium saccharinate. Yeah, I think that's right. And it's essentially just almost a proprietary version of benzalkonium chloride, right? But it's just different enough as we'll see that it makes Lysol kind of its own thing.

And like you said, they add alcohol, and alcohol itself is a germ-killing machine, especially with viruses, because it just cuts right through the viral envelope and lets all the DNA spill out or RNA and the viruses don't like that kind of thing. One of the other things that happens too, when the quat and ethanol combine, they undergo a synergistic change essentially and they do all sorts of nasty stuff. Specifically they denature cells, which means that they break the chemical bonds that hold

the molecules together. And again, that's not good if you're a bacteria. Yeah. So like the cell wall kind of dissolves, and then like you said, everything spills out, and then those proteins are just busted up. Yeah, they coagulate. Different proteins coagulate, which renders them totally useless. It's not like they can go back to how they were.

Like the poor bacterium is probably trying to keep its guts in and yet they're useless even if it could patch itself up. Yeah and a couple of things if you're talking about the effectiveness of a disinfectant is concentration and the contact time. So there has to be what's called an MIC or a minimum inhibitory concentration. I think we said 2.4% is like the low concentration end, where it's still potent in the case of Lysol. And then the contact time, if you read the,

I'm not even saying just Lysol, but if you read any disinfectant, you may see in fine print something like, you know, spray and leave it on there for four to 10 minutes. Yeah, the Lysol wipes depending on which one you have. It's four minutes or 10 minutes, it's crazy. Yeah, and a lot of people don't know this,

and so if they use something like this in their house, we don't, but if you do, you might just spray it and wipe it off right afterward, thinking you're accomplishing something you're not. Now, I read an interview with a microbiologist who was saying, like, when I clean my house like this, like, say I'll spray a doorknob, I just let it sit for a minute before I wipe it off. And usually with the spray, a minute will do it. But the point is, it's not like it just immediately

disrupts all germs or microbial life that it encounters on contact. It takes a couple minutes for it to really do its job essentially. Yeah, for sure. Well, you wanna take an early break or? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, we're gonna take an early break

and then we'll come back and talk about the history of Lysol. Hey, I'm Gianna Pedente and I'm Jemei Jackson-Gadston. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes! Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions.

Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Sanner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it, like, you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself.

Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sup, y'all. This is Questlove, and I'm here to tell you about a new podcast I've been working on with the Story Pirates and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's a family-friendly podcast. Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th. I'm going to toss it over to the host of Historical Records, Nemini, to tell you all about it. Make sure you check it out.

Hey y'all, are you ready for an explosive new podcast that brings together hip hop and history? My name is Nimini and I'm the host of Historical Records, a brand new podcast for kids and families that proves in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Flash slam, another one gone. Bash bam, another one gone. The cracker, the bat, and another one gone. The tip of the cap, there's another one gone. And the best part? I make this show entirely by myself. Impressive, right?

Meow. OK, OK. Maybe I get a little bit of help from my sidekick, Tina the Raccoon. Every week on Historical Records, join me, Nimminy, and Tina the Raccoon, as we learn about the unsung heroes of the past and turn their history into hip hop. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeart radio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's me Jay Shetty, and I'm the host of the award-winning podcast On Purpose. I created this show to bring you conversations that inspire, motivate, and help you navigate life a little easier. Every guest brings something special, whether it's about relationships, mental health,

or finding your purpose. And this week I had the opportunity to interview Sean Mendez, a singer-songwriter known for his heartfelt lyrics and melodies. Sean's music feels like an open diary, raw, relatable, and real. Beyond the music,

he's all about using his platform for good, advocating for mental health and the environment. He really comes down to the moment you're prepared to take responsibility for your life and for everything that goes wrong and for everything that goes right. And it's hard. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me, you'll not want to miss this one. So Chuck, I believe Holland said that Lysol has a very interesting history, and Holland was right. And it's a pretty old history, too. I think it was invented in 1889 by Gustav Rappenstrowk. Nice.

Yeah? Did I get it? Pretty dang good, buddy. Sehr gut. Well, thank you very much. And he was a German chemist. Yeah, of course. And he was like, you know,

we've got all sorts of infectious diseases. Most people call them diseases. But he just spoke really strangely. And he said, I'm going to come up with something to help, specifically in the medical setting, a disinfectant that's going to save lives. That's right. Lysol back in those days was 50% Creosol in soap, basically. So, pontified vegetable oil. I kind of figured that was like lye from soap and soul from the Creosol

is where you got Lysol, but that's not right either, is it? No. And as a matter of fact, I have not seen a definitive answer. Oh, I thought you sent me something. I did, and then I saw other stuff elsewhere that undermined it. Oh, I gotcha. The one that I'm on is that the lie is short for lysis,

which is basically like destroying a cell, and then the sol is short for solvent. That's the word I'm on. But again, there's different interpretations. What's the one I sent you, you remember? Isn't that what you sent me or no? Maybe, okay. Maybe there's not other interpretations,

I've just totally lost my mind and that's it. It may be it. It was toxic back then with that mixture. Creosol was a germ killer and it was less poisonous what they had been using to disinfect things like hospitals at the time, which was carbolic acid. So it was a little bit better version of that but it was like a brown, a very brown color and it kind of became the the go-to antiseptic in the late 1800s for the medical community.

Yeah, an 1893 report said, let's defend ourselves and our homes against the homicidal microbe. Exclamation point even. And the British Medical Journal was on board. That one's still around. That's how legit this is. Um, they were like, yeah, use it on your skin.

It'll treat lupus. Uh, but beware because if you use it too much, it's kind of caustic and it can crack your skin. Um, and for the longest time, essentially from invention until the 19 teens, um, the people who bought this stuff were medical professionals, and they bought it in an ultra concentrated form. I think you, like the smallest bottle would turn into two gallons when you mixed it together

with water like you're supposed to, and then so on and so forth. And it was just a, it was what they used for cleaning wounds and all sorts of stuff. Like it was like the original Bak-Tin, but way more caustic. Yeah. Yeah. Things change in 1912, or started to change in 1912, when the AMA Council on Pharmacy and Chemistry said,

you know, a lot of these patients are screaming when we put it on their skin. It's burning them, clearly, because we have eyes and ears. And this might be too dangerous for human use. So maybe we shouldn't use it in hospitals. Len and Fink, who were making Lysol at the time, were like, oh crap, this is our big market here, is marketing to these hospitals. And so here, and so here's what we'll do. We'll reposition it in the marketplace and through advertising as something, uh, for home use and for use on, um, women's reproductive organs.

Yes. Yes. Let's talk about that because there is essentially no point in the history of Lysol that it should ever have been used on women's reproductive organs. And yet, when they lost that market of selling directly to hospitals, who knew that the field of medicine had its own journals and that they would start talking amongst themselves? They essentially created, they re-debuted their product as a contraceptive. And at the time, this was not completely off the wall. Using a vaginal douche as a contraceptive, there's no way for me to say that and not feel like I'm talking about a guy.

A guy. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's really taken over. Yeah, it has. That this was like the main way that people prevented birth. And it didn't even work very well, but this was like all they had at the time, essentially. Yeah, it was contraception.

Well, this is sort of one of the early ironies, is you could sell Lysol as a cleaner. There was influenza in the early 1900s and 1910s, so like it was doing great there. But you could not market it legally as a contraceptive, not because it was dangerous and didn't work, but because contraceptives were illegal. In the U.S. and Canada from the late 19th century, 1873 with the Comstock Act here in the U.S. Birth control eventually was legalized in 1965. If you were married, if you wanted to have sex out of marriage and not get pregnant, you had to wait until 1972 to

get that approval one year after I was born, which is shocking. So from 1919 all the way through the 1960s, they promoted Lysol as an illegal contraceptive under the banner of the mythological term of feminine hygiene. Right. And so just because they used that term and never said this is a contraceptive, they instead said it with like a wink and a nudge. Like we all know what we're talking about, right? And consumers did know. They were well aware that what Lysol was saying is like, if you use this after sex, it's going to kill anything inside, right?

So don't even worry about all this stuff. It's your contraceptive. And Lysol, Lysol became the number one contraceptive in the United States from the 1930s through the 1960s, Chuck. Lysol, douching with Lysol was what most people in the United States used as a contraceptive for 30 years. Yeah, and by the way, I wanna clear up real quick. When I said the mythological concept of feminine hygiene, I don't mean people shouldn't wash their body parts,

of course. Sure. I'm talking about this idea of feminine hygiene products and douching and douching as a contraceptive and all that stuff was, as far as I can tell, a creation, like a marketing creation. Yeah, what's ironic about it is that because you're using Lysol, again, as a douche, you're killing off all of the beneficial bacteria in the vagina to begin with. So you actually are creating the problems

that feminine hygiene products were supposed to cure or help. So the market actually created itself by just the introduction of this. It's nuts, it's terrible. It's essentially taking advantage of insecure mid-century American women through a really harsh marketing campaign that lasted for decades. Oh yeah. Let's talk about some of that. There's a historian named Kristen Hall who looked

at just dozens and dozens of these Lysol advertisements from the day. And here are just a few examples. In the married woman, the cleansing antiseptic douche should follow married relations. Lysol is the right antiseptic for this delicate purpose. The word germ was sort of a stand-in for semen in many cases. They had ads that are just so clearly trying to exploit, like you said, the idea that marital life is the only way to go and a clean woman in the kitchen is one that will appeal to her husband for intercourse.

This one, it showed a woman literally trapped in an ad, trapped in a cobweb that said, was spun by my husband's indifference. And until she's freed by using Lysol to address careless risks, then, you know, dot dot dot, she won't get sex from her husband. Yeah, so what the ad was essentially saying is her husband's like, I'm not having another kid. I'd rather just go without sex than have another kid.

And the wife is like, but I want sex. And Lysol's like, let us step in. You start using Lysol, you tell your husband you're gonna use Lysol, he'll be all over you like white on rice. Yeah, basically if you don't use Lysol, you're not gonna have sex anymore and be happy in your marriage.

Exactly. So this was like the marketing campaign that Lysol came up with to get women to use Lysol as a contraceptive. And it should be noted that at the same time, they were marketing it as a disinfectant for your house. Right. So it would be exactly like buying a jug of Lysol and using it to clean your kitchen and then using it as a contraceptive The same jug that was essentially what was going on for these decades

Well, yeah, and like you mentioned earlier it not only was dangerous as we'll see but it didn't work They had there was a study from 1933. So this is even back then they knew right and they found from 1933, so this is even back then they knew, and they found basically half, 250 of the 507 women who used Lysol as a contraceptive douche became pregnant. And in the 1930s, there were these two doctors, Sarah K. Greenberg and Rachel Lynn Palmer, that said Lysol's claims would be laughable were it not for the tragedy of the many women who have become pregnant.

But not just get pregnant, they were also like scarring their vaginas internally, at the very least inflaming them. Some women died because if you absorb some of these things like QACs and some of the other chemicals, I'm sure probably ethanol as well, into your body through the very porous vaginal tissue, you can die from poisoning, from Lysol poisoning. And women were dying, at the very least hundreds were ending up in the hospital from it as well. Yeah. And if that's not bad enough, because of Creosol, the creosol in the Lysol, it was used for illegal abortions well into the 20th century. Right. And so, like you said, from the 30s, it was being criticized by the medical community, yet it just wasn't reaching out to the public at large yet.

it just wasn't reaching out to the public at large yet. And it wasn't until the 60s that people stopped using Lysol as a contraceptive, almost overnight. And what happened the next day when they stopped using Lysol was that the pill had just been introduced. And as it became legal and widespread, and people started to be like, this actually works, they stopped using Lysol immediately. Yeah, so Lysol didn't stop being used

as a vaginal contraceptive because it was, the word spread that it was dangerous, it didn't work. It stopped because the pill came along. Exactly. Which is really hard to believe. Really is. I'll tell you something that's not hard to believe, Chuck, is let's take our second break.

Ooh, another early one. I love it. Hey, I'm Gianna Pedente. And I'm Jeme Jackson-Gadston. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed?

Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes! Each week we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Sanner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies.

Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it, like, you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So y'all, this is Questlove, and I'm here to tell you about a new podcast I've been working on with the Story Pirates and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's a family-friendly podcast. Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th.

I'm going to toss it over to the host of Historical Records, Nimini, to tell you all about it. Make sure you check it out. Hey, y'all. Are you ready for an explosive new podcast that brings together hip-hop and history? My name is Nimini, and I'm the host of Historical Records, a brand-new podcast for kids and families that proves, in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Flash slam, another one gone.

Bash bam, another one gone. The cracker, the bat, and another one gone. The tip of the cap, there's another one gone. And the best part? I make this show entirely by myself. Impressive, right? Meow. OK, OK, maybe I get a little bit of help from my sidekick, Tina the Raccoon.

Every week on Historical Records, join me, Nimini, and Tina the Raccoon as we learn about the unsung heroes of the past and turn their history into hip hop. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's me Jay Shetty, and I'm the host of the award-winning podcast On Purpose. I created this show to bring you conversations that inspire, motivate, and help you navigate life a little easier. Every guest brings something special, whether it's about relationships, mental health or finding your purpose. And this week I had the opportunity to interview Shawn Mendez,

a singer-songwriter known for his heartfelt lyrics and melodies. Shawn's music feels like an open diary, raw, relatable and real. Beyond the music, he's all about using his platform for good, advocating for mental health and the environment. He really comes down to the moment you're prepared to take responsibility for your life and for everything that goes wrong and for everything that goes right. And it's hard. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Trust me, you'll not want to miss this one. ["On Purpose"] All right, so we're back. Lysol, if you remember from Act II, I guess, the fact that it was not viable as a means of birth control after the pill came along, or really before actually, in truth, meant that it had to change their tune yet again. It gained some ubiquity being referenced in a Sylvia Plath poem, The Colossus, in the 1950s.

It was just something that seems like it's always been around. There have been different forms of it over the years. That disinfectant spray has been around since the 60s. I think they started cleaning toilets with it in the 60s. Eventually they started having the hand soaps and disinfecting wipes and stuff like that. But they were like, how do we sell this stuff in an age where the FTC basically is endorsing or says that your claims have to be true, you can't be misled, the harm can't outweigh the

benefit and stuff like that. What's the new path forward? Right. So, essentially, because of this stuff, like disinfectants like Lysol and other brands started just tinkering with their formulas and looking for things that were as effective or more effective but less toxic. Like for example in 1952 they dropped Creosol for ortho hydroxyphenol, which is a quarter as toxic as Creosol.

But I mean you start doing that, it's like these little adjustments here or there, you start making significant gains in lowering toxicity. The thing is, it still is hazardous to your health, depending on how you're exposed to it and what concentration you're exposed to. Yeah, for sure. And obviously a time when you heard a lot more about this kind of thing was during,

like you mentioned earlier, the onset of the pandemic from COVID-19. People were buying a lot more disinfectant. I know you said there was a 12.3 increase in sales that just dollars-wise equates to about 4 billion bucks, American bucks. So it's a lot of money. So obviously with this stuff being used,

like people were disinfecting everything. The CDC was getting a lot more calls about people going to the hospital from poisoning. Just because it's around more, there were plenty of stories where people would use disinfectants on like on their food itself. Putting it on their skin. At one point, former President Trump on live on the air pondered whether injecting disinfectants could cure coronavirus. So there's just a lot of overuse of this kind of stuff at the time because of COVID.

Yeah, and he didn't name check Lysol. He said disinfectants, but Lysol and other companies that make disinfectants issue press releases basically immediately saying like, don't ingest disinfectants in any way, shape or form. They're still toxic. And these companies didn't say they're still very toxic, but depending on who you ask, they can be pretty toxic. One of the things that Lysol did get a boost from though was remember I said that their QAC is almost proprietary, the benzalkonium saccharate. Well, it's just different enough

from the other versions of that, that Lysol was able to submit itself, its formula to the CDC for testing on killing COVID. And the CDC was like, all good. So now COVID could be like recommended, Lysol specifically recommended by the CDC for the pandemic. And that was one of the things that led to Lysol specifically in this huge boom in sales

was a pretty smart little marketing maneuver. No, absolutely. So a big boom for sales, obviously, but in 2021, the CDC came out and were like, hey, you know, this obsessive disinfecting is maybe getting out of hand and may have long-lasting consequences. And this is where we, you know, we get to talk about something that we've talked about on the show before, which I always, you know, think is kind of super interesting, which

is the fact that when you disinfect something like that, you're killing good germs and bad germs. And there is the hypothesis of the fact that, you know, like friendly microorganisms are good for the body, especially in childhood, to help you build up a more robust immune system. So you're not just walking around in a completely sanitized situation at all times. And then when you encounter something in the real world, all of a sudden you're getting sick more often and maybe even worse. Yeah. And like you said, even worse.

And that that hygiene hypothesis is supported by this idea that because these kids are growing up in overly sanitary conditions in like the industrialized world, they are more prone by far to autoimmune diseases, which are diseases that the body is attacking the wrong stuff. Proteins, tissues, things it shouldn't be attacking. So you've got things like food allergies, type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis. All of them are much higher prevalence in the West than they are in less developed countries. I think Kyle found a study that found that in the West, preschool children can have up to 10% of a class can have food allergies, but in mainland China, you're gonna find something like 2%, and that type 1 diabetes,

which is your body, your immune system, is attacking your insulin-producing pancreas, 62 out of every 100,000 kids in Finland, an industrialized country, has type 1 diabetes, but 6.2, like a tenth out of every 100,000 children in Mexico have it, and then 0.5 of every 100,000 have it in Pakistan. So all that goes to show, all these and tons of other studies suggest that because we're cleaning too much, our kids are developing autoimmune diseases and we need to expose them to more germs.

Yeah, that is a version of what's called the old friends hypothesis, which is if you're a young kid in your early years and your formative years, if you have regular exposure to harmless microbes, then you're going to be better off in the long run. And if that's really limited because you're disinfecting your entire house constantly, you're going to suffer for it because there are arguments. This guy named Graham Rook is one of the proponents, argues that your immune system needs this exposure to diverse microbes so your body knows how to recognize a threat when it sees it.

Yeah. And he was saying this, Graham Rook in particular, he's a bacteriologist from University College of London. He's saying there's specific microbes that the human immune system has co-evolved with and that we're killing them through disinfectant and that those are the ones that train our immune systems how to be and that without them, that's why we're getting the autoimmune diseases. And yeah, again, it's like a riff on the hygiene hypothesis.

It almost takes it and like makes it more specific, I think. Yeah, they've done some more research. Speaking of Finland, they took stool samples, they took little poopy pellets from kids in Finland, Estonia, and Russia, and found that in Finland, which is super industrialized at this point, in Estonia, they did not have Escherichia? I don't know. E. coli, I know that's what most people call it. Yeah, I'll just call it E. coli, I was trying to be fancy.

That activates a response from the immune system but had a bacteriota species that inhibits the immune system. So not only did it not have what you needed to activate the immune response, you had something that inhibits it. Right. So again, there's a lot of research to support this kind of stuff that we are over cleaning.

And in particular, in the United States, we have a particular obsession with cleanliness and we overdo it essentially. And again, just like with Lysol's advertising blitz in the twenties and thirties that got women to use Lysol as a contraceptive based on their insecurities. We're marketed to like, there's germs everywhere. Your kid's going to get sick. Your kid is sneezing on things. They've got to clean the entire house and not just clean, but disinfect.

And it seems to be if the hygiene hypothesis and old friends hypothesis are correct, it's the disinfecting part. That's the problem that if we just cleaned, you know, and kept things tidy, we would, those good microbes would be around. And when we are exposed to them, we don't have to worry as much about the other microbes that are harmful because our immune systems are primed to take care of those things a little more. That's right. And I know I mentioned it before, it is 100% anecdotal. I'm not disputing that, but we have never been big, overly disinfectant as a household.

We have let my daughter be dirty, stay dirty. And she's one of the healthiest kids I've ever known in my life. Again, purely anecdotal, but who knows? I think maybe we're just lazy, but it feels like we've done right by her because she just does not get sick much. That's awesome, man.

Yeah. Yeah, that hygiene hypothesis, I just love it. It's so intuitive, it's so folksy and homey. I just love it. So I hope it's correct. I hope it doesn't ever get overturned. Yeah. I mean, what did we do when we were kids? We rolled around in the dirt.

Our parents weren't bothered to care. Or maybe we got to wash our hands before dinner kind of thing, but maybe not even. Yeah. No, for sure. And I mean, the generation after us, where we started cleaning more and more with this disinfectants, that's when autoimmune diseases really started to pick up.

It's just the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming essentially. Yeah. There's some other stuff too. Like I said some people are like, yeah, this stuff is still toxic so be careful with it. Some people are saying like, okay, it depends on the concentration that you're exposed to. Lysol that's super concentrated that you're supposed to dilute, that is very dangerous stuff. There's endocrine disruptors in there, there's antifreeze in there, you can breathe it in, you can absorb it through your skin. Just undiluted Lysol or concentrated Lysol is

dangerous. But what's called ready to use the stuff you buy in the bottle that you just start spraying that is so diluted that it's, um, it's more toxic effects are, well, they're diluted essentially. So some people say it's not really a problem to use Lysol. Other people are like, it depends on the context. If you spray Lysol air spray in a closed room, you don't wanna be in there to breathe it in because it's gonna mess your lungs up pretty good.

Other people are like, we know that this exposure to Lysol right then is not harmful, but there's not enough studies on what's called, um, chronic low level exposure, but just using it over and over and over again for years. What does that do to the body? And so we need to study that kind of stuff more. Unfortunately, there are people in the government who are working against that kind of stuff and introducing bills that are like,

not only do we not want to combat this, we wanna make disinfectant manufacturers, we wanna make it easier for them to just cover up what they're using as ingredients so people can't study them. Yeah, what was that? I saw it was sort of, I mean, it seemed like it was directly influenced

from the lobby from these companies. But who was it that introduced that bill that basically said, like, hey, you know what, you shouldn't have to say what ingredients are in your product. Yeah, Indiana representative, Congressperson Larry Bouchon introduced the bill in October 23, 2023. Still doesn't have a name, uh, weirdly. It doesn't even have a number. So I guess it's not gotten very far so far, but what it represents is a real

disruption in the disinfectant industry because California passed a law that was really hardcore about telling everybody what's in your products as disinfectants. And there was a big kind of stakeholder back and forth between disinfectant manufacturers and the government of California to kind of come to this consensus like okay we'll abide by California's law essentially everywhere in the United States but the rest of the states have to promise that they're not going to make any laws that are even tougher than California. We're all going to agree that this California law is a compromise.

And so this federal bill preempts the California law. So it undoes all that negotiation. So some companies, including the makers of Lysol, are like, yes, let's support that bill. But other companies like Clorox have come forward and they're like, we're opposed to this bill. We already went through this whole process. We came to a compromise. And this could conceivably open up the case for states later on to come up with even worse bills or stricter bills than the California one. So it's a big deal actually in the disinfectant industry right now. And it's kind of up in

the air, which way it'll go. Oh, I'm sure. Another thing that's a potential future, well the future is kind of now because it's already being used, but germicidal ultraviolet light, GUV, is something a lot of people are fairly hot on. UV rays and things like that we know can be, or UV light can be dangerous. That's why we use sunblock and stuff like that. But this is a different kind of UV. This is called FAR UV. They are applied in very specifically short wavelengths.

So it's not penetrating like regular UV. And I even bought one of those little UV cases that you put your cell phone in during the pandemic. Oh, yeah. I've got two. Yeah, I think I used it twice. Oh, really? And recently donated it. It just never caught on in my house.

But, you know, you got to be careful with these things because they... you could buy, like, a UV wand to just wave over your doorknob at home, but it may not be far UV. And a lot of the FDA is like, hey, be careful with these things that you're buying because UV light can be super dangerous as well. Yeah, to your skin, to your eyes, essentially over long-term exposure, who knows, cancer

probably. But this, this FAR-UV, because the wavelengths are so small, they're like, this can't penetrate skin or the cornea essentially. So it's, it will kill all the germs, all the bacteria in the air. That's the other benefit of it too, Chuck. It's like if you and I are talking and one of us has COVID and I cough in a room that has a correct setup for far UV, GUV, germicidal UV, like you said, it'll kill that stuff before you can breathe in it. So it has a really great benefit and application, but it can also still be dangerous because

what they figured out is that even far UV creates ozone and ozone can interact with other particles in the air creating air pollution essentially inside your house. Yeah. And that's not good. That's not good at all. No, so they're grappling with it. Emily, when she had her business use,

and we still use this at home sometimes, is she would just make her own, she called it Alkaline Orange own she called the alcohol and orange It was just alcohol with Orange essential oil to help it smell good Right and would just use that on like the tables and stuff when this she had stainless steel tables when she was manufacturing stuff Yeah, and I'm sure she added water too, but I Did not realize this until researching this

But I did not realize this until researching this. Alcohol by itself is not as effective in killing viruses or destroying viruses as alcohol and water is. It does something to enhance the action of the alcohol. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah, and remember during COVID, we did some episodes sort of around that, where we were like, washing our hands with soap is more effective than using the alcohol-based

hand sanitizer. Yeah, because it binds to it and washes it off, right? That's right. That is something I need to get over. It's very clear to me. I developed a real severe case of germophobia during COVID. Oh, really? And it's gotten much better, much better.

But it's still present. Like I'll grab a paper towel and use that to pump gas with and then use alcohol on my hands afterward. And like there's just stuff I should not be doing. And researching this made me realize like I need to mellow out. Yeah. Well, that's good. But I don't use hand sanitizer and never really have but I do will use that paper towel if they have them at the gas station

because I don't want grubby gas smell on me. That's not why I'm doing it. And I will grab one on my way out of a, like especially like an airport bathroom. I'll grab a paper towel or the paper towel that I've used to dry my hands. I might use that on the door handle. Cause that's, I think that's why they keep that trash can right by the door as well, right? Yeah, exactly. Yes.

So I do stuff like that. If there's not paper towels and you ever open the bathroom door in a public restroom and I suddenly pop out around you, it's because I've been standing there waiting for somebody to open the bathroom door in a public restroom and I suddenly pop out around you? It's because I've been standing there waiting for somebody to open the door because I won't let myself touch the door handle. I just can't, I can't do it.

Or if I'm the guy who like holds the door for you with his foot and is like, oh sorry, and runs off. That's okay. I think a lot of people do stuff like that. That's just, you know, especially like in airports, you know, people are traveling all over their place. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. No, but yeah, I just need to be less delicate, I think.

I think it would be better for me psychologically and health-wise too. Yeah, maybe get just some of that worry out of the old brain. Exactly, exactly. What's the worst that's gonna happen? I could die of norovirus. Who cares? Oh man, I'd have to find a new co-host. Don't do that.

Like I said, who cares? Chuck, you got anything else? Okay, well that's it for Lysol everybody. Thanks again to Holland. Thanks again to Kyle for helping us out with this. And since I just named Chuck Kyle again, it's time for listener mail. I'm going to call this just a very kind thank you. Hey, guys, wanted to say thanks for doing what you do. Your humor, intellect, and open-mindedness have been an inspiration for me for many years. I started listening back in 09 when

I was traveling back and forth between Gainesville and Tallahassee, Florida to visit my college girlfriend. When I graduated, I continued listening through med school when driving two rotations, visiting my med school girlfriend, and anytime I could find a break during the monotony of studying. I still listen regularly during my residency

in obstetrics and gynecology, especially when driving to the satellite hospitals I worked at, and of course flying back to Florida to visit my residency girlfriend. Things are progressing, you notice this? Yeah. Is it the same girlfriend, do you think? Yeah, I mean things are progressing romantically and professionally for this couple. Gotcha. It's a great story. I finished residency in 2018, still listen almost every day when I'm driving to the hospital or my office where I work as an

OBGYN. Married that residency girlfriend. Nice. And we have three beautiful kids who are in med school. No, just kidding. Twin boys and our seven month old baby girl. Listen to all the episodes at once. Listen to The End of the World with Josh Clark. Thanks. Yeehaw. Many episodes of Movie Crush. Yeehaw.

Lots of Don't Be Dumbs. Okay. What's wrong with Don't Be Dumbs? No, Don't Be Dumbs are great. Anytime someone has dived into the videos, I think it's pretty extra. They're hardcore for sure. Yeah, I wasn't saying it wasn't something.

In fact, Don't Be Dumbs. You're like't Be Dumb was the best of what happened in our video. Were your Don't Be Dumb's? I don't know man what about our this thing in history weirdness? I always felt like we were just hanging on by the skin of our teeth. We definitely were. Anyway watch Don't Be Dumb if you haven't everyone. It's pretty great. I haven't dug up the TV show yet, but maybe one day I will. One day I will, I have your book, but sadly not your board game. Not to go parasocial on you guys, but I really like you.

We like you too. Your constant motivation to continue to be better in all aspects of your lives and your openness therein has been an inspiration. So from the of my heart thank you and that is from Adam. Thanks a lot Adam that was a great email we appreciate that congratulations on becoming a doctor bless you for that bless your wife too bless your kids as well for having doctor parents bless everybody uh med school girlfriend i think is a great name for an indie pop band. Totally. Yeah. Nailed it.

So thanks for that too, Adam. If you want to be like Adam and send us a really nice email, we are always happy to receive those. You can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom like an OBGYN, and send it off to stuffpodcast at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, I'm Gianna Predenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadston. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Morrie Teharry-Pore. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all, Nimini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, The Story Pirates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records.

Listen to Historical Records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Essie Kupp, and I've spent my career interviewing people about politics, presidential elections, and some really tough breaking news. But now I need a break and I think you do too. So on my new podcast, Off the Cup, I'll still be interviewing people, usually famous and most likely my friends, but about life. You know, the stuff that consumes us when we're not consumed by politics.

So come join me every Wednesday for some conversational self-care. Listen to Off the Cup on the iHeart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.