Stuff You Should Know - The Tylenol Murders, Part II

Episode Date: May 31, 2019

The panic that began in Chicago spreads and begins to change the world. The investigation into the murders turns up leads and suspects, but still no one has ever been charged with the murders. It remains unsolved to this day.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On the podcast, Hey Dude the 90s called, David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s.

We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude the 90s called on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass

and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, ya everybody, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say. Bye, bye, bye.

Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome to Step You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant.

There's guest producer Josh over there. I guess enough with the pleasantries. Let's get back to it, Chuck. Tylenol murder is part two. If you did not listen to the first part in 1982, seven people were murdered by ingesting Tylenol tainted with cyanide. All on the same day.

All on the same day. America and much of the world is super freaked out. Johnson and Johnson is the manufacturer. And part one of part two has a deal with Johnson and Johnson and how they handled this in a public relation sort of way. Right. Because there were and are a huge company, like you said in the episode one,

they held 37% of the market share, which was many hundreds of millions of dollars of Tylenol that they're selling every year. And that's in 1982 dollars. Right, which is like gazillions now. So it was a very big deal for that company. And the way they handled it is taught in colleges, in PR classes, all over the world

as exactly how to handle a big public relations crisis like this. Like it's literally called a textbook example of how it's done. Yeah, they did a good job. Because as you remember from the last episode, they found out pretty sure early on that this had nothing to do with Johnson and Johnson.

Right. Like it wasn't in their factory, it wasn't in their supply chain that it happened. Almost certainly. And that it probably happened by some crazed person taking them out of the store, tainting them maybe in the store, in the parking lot,

then putting them back on the shelf. But Johnson and Johnson can't come out on the news and say, hey, what in us? Right, well at first though, and this gets overlooked and left out of the college business courses and the PR courses. At first Johnson and Johnson was not in favor of a massive recall.

Sure, because that looks, well, it looks good in one way, but bad in another. And they actually didn't recall anything until Mayor Jane Byrne held her press conference on Friday, calling for a recall of the Tylenol in Chicago. And Johnson and Johnson did a little face palm and went, yes, we're recalling all of the Tylenol in Chicago.

Yes, what she said. Right. So by Friday the 31st of September, was this October 1st? I have no idea. I think it was October 1st. Anyway, by the Friday, two days after the death, the deaths Johnson and Johnson recalled

all of the Tylenol in Chicago. And that should have been enough. To them, that was enough. But this PR crisis was so massive and spread so fast. And like we said earlier in part one, became global almost overnight, it was not enough. And so Johnson and Johnson within a week of the deaths, recalled every bottle of extra-shrinked Tylenol

in the United States, which is worth about $100 million at the time, took it back to their factories and destroyed it. So they say. Yeah, both Johnson and Johnson. Right. I wonder if one of them was like, I don't know about this. One of them said, okay, I'll take all the states

west of the Mississippi, North Dakota, South Dakota, and some of Wyoming, and then you take all the other states. That's a part one joke. They even got an award, the Public Relations Society of America, which is a real thing, believe it or not. They awarded them their Silver Anvil Award for how they handle the crisis.

The Tylenol poisoning. That's right. And high-grade foods, remember we talked about the bad wieners in the first episode. Yeah. The ballpark Franks supposedly had razor blades, but did not. Right.

That still created a public relations crisis for them, even though they were just these little jerks in Detroit. And they won the Golden Anvil, which is one higher than Silver. Because of how they handled the PR crisis, brought about by the copycats of the actual Tylenol crisis. Which was, in fact, really brought about by two jerk kids in Detroit.

Right. Really not even copycats. Not the Tylenol crisis. I wonder where those kids are today. Probably in the Senate. I bet one of them was the guy who did our lighting at our Detroit show. There was a smoke, oh good, some more smoke.

Yeah guys, we did a show in Detroit a few years ago, and very famously we still use that as the standard bearer for a bad crew. Bad. We had a guy that looked like a former roadie for Uriah Heap, that was running like a light show basically during the middle of our podcast. And like smoke came out.

We were like, we had to stop the show almost. Like dude, what are you doing? Yeah, well the lighting was so bad that your highlighter had turned like brown, and you could no longer see the words. And you asked him, we had to stop the show. And you had to ask him to use a different color light. And his response, because Yumi was hanging out,

and our friend Chris Bowman was hanging out in the sound booth with the guy. His response according to them was, you want smoke, I'll give them some more smoke. And we got some more smoke. Like a smoke machine. And people ask us why we haven't been back to Detroit. That's a big reason.

That's a big reason, not the only reason. Okay, so they won the Golden Anvil for the Wiener PR Moves. McNeil Consumer Products, which is a subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson. They actually make Tylenol. Yeah, they make the pills. Again, the way all this supply chain works

is really convoluted. And like you said, they didn't want to recall Johnson & Johnson, everything at first. They wanted to kind of take it a little slower, I guess. Well, sure, I mean. Because they'd found out the drugs were actually fine, thanks to Pinky McFarland. This is $100 million worth of stock

that they were kind of feeling the pressure to recall. That's right. So they were kind of reluctant at first, especially if they were convinced that there was nothing wrong with the rest of them. They had no choice. No. That was the only way to do it,

was to lose a lot of money in favor of future gains. Yeah, but even at the time, a lot of people were like, this is it for Tylenol. Sure. The public has lost faith in Tylenol. So when Tylenol recalled 31 million 50-count bottles of extra-shrinked Tylenol and destroyed it all, there was a chance that,

not only were they losing $100 million, but that they were losing $100 million of a brand that had already lost the public trust and would never regain it. So... Which wasn't true, but yeah. No, but they didn't necessarily know that at the time it was still up in the air.

So it was basically 31 million sacrificial lambs that were killed to show the public this tain of Tylenol is gone forever. That's right. Your chances of dying from taking extra-shrinked Tylenol are now gone. You can go back to taking Tylenol now. That was one thing.

That was a big gesture, which is what it amounted to. It was a gesture on behalf of Johnson and Johnson, but they did other stuff too. They started to do things right. Out of their reluctance, once they finally said, we have to just go with this to save face and to win back public trust, they started to do things right,

like including like setting up a hotline, putting out $100,000 reward for information. Chump change, considering how much they had lost already. It's $1982. Still chump change. It is. Yeah, and that remains unclaimed. It does, but because of all of this,

Johnson and Johnson managed to regain the public trust. And actually what managed to position itself as a victim in all of this. Like, yes, there were these seven murder victims, and Johnson and Johnson, I don't think ever tried to push them out of the spotlight, but they also managed to portray themselves as the victim of a mad poisoner

who may or may not had something out for them. But either way, their brand was taking a huge hit because of this, and they were a victim, and were able to generate public sympathy, which is part of the road to regaining the public trust. Right, which is why it's taught in PR classes. So we'll take you back to 1982. If you weren't around then,

or old enough to be taking OTC pills and pain relievers. OTC is over the counter, by the way. That's right. Okay. OTC? Yeah, you know me. So dumb. I love that you played along though, I appreciate it.

Sure buddy. You could have made me feel stupid. We've been partners for 11 years almost now. Yeah, that'll be the one, next month, or this month. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Unbelievable. So...

Unbelievable. Not in that way. Okay. So here's how it used to happen. If you wanted to take a pill, like a Tylenol, you would get your bottle. Mm-hmm. You would pop it open with your thumb.

Well, first, first it came in a little box. Sure, but the box wasn't even glued shut. No. You would pop it open with your finger, you would take out the cotton in there, and you would take your pill. That was that easy. There was no tamper proofing.

There was no, the cotton was completely superfluous at this time. Yeah, cotton originally was introduced to keep Bayer aspirin, like the hard tablets, from getting crushed in transport. Yeah. And since they started using capsules and other stuff and figured out how to strengthen tablets,

there was no reason for the cotton any longer, but because consumers expected it, still today, you'll find cotton in your pills. There's no reason for it to be there, except because the companies know that you want it to be there, you would be weirded out if there wasn't cotton in your pills.

I imagine the cotton lobby had something to do with that too. Well, I'll bet they're not complaining. You know? So... Big cotton. They should, new fancy OTC pills should have MicroModal in there. Right.

It just comes with a pair of meundee stuffed into your pill bottle. That'd be a bonus. And you're like, these have been worn. So, this was a time, it was a very innocent time previous to this, where you could like, and you pointed this out, I remember seeing this in grocery stores,

like I remember seeing mothers in grocery stores opening food products and smelling them. Yes. That's what you could do. And then closing it back and putting it back on the shelf maybe. Yeah, there's a little mold in this one. Yeah.

I'll just leave it for the next person. Forget poisoning, like they could be spitting in this stuff. It was allowed. That's just the way it was. There was, America was innocent enough that that was fine. That's how we lived.

And that sets up this Tylenol poisoning. It really shows how much of a jarring experience it was for America. Because all of a sudden, like it's finally sunk in in a couple of days, there's something wrong with the Tylenol. Somebody has gone out of their way to poison the Tylenol in order to randomly kill people.

And the reason they were able to do this is because it's easy to get into the Tylenol, tamper with it, put it back, and no one will be any more the wiser. And wait, it's not just Tylenol. Milk doesn't have anything that keeps it tamper resistant. Neither is orange juice. Neither is cereal.

Neither does cottage cheese. Nothing does. And America freaked out. And this is the reason why this Tylenol poisoning is considered widely the first incident of domestic terrorism in the United States, because it was terrorism, pure and simple. America was terrified.

They were petrified not only to take Tylenol or any over-the-counter medicine now, they were petrified to drink milk or give milk to their kids. Paula Prince, the flight attendant who was the last one to die in Chicago, she had a coworker who said like, everything look tainted now.

I was afraid to give my kids milk. I was afraid to give my kids cereal. If they could get to the Tylenol, they could poison anything. And that was really emblematic of the attitude, the shock that everybody went through. And as a result, within six weeks, Tylenol said, we got this covered. Yeah, and I have a feeling they did this so fast.

There had to have been this idea in place already. Yeah, it was. I saw a reference that it was. And I imagine it was not done because they were like, man, it's a lot of money and why would we bother? It's like it's not like someone's gonna poison the medicine. Right.

And then that happened. So within six weeks, they had a box that was actually glued shut. So if your little box had been opened, you would be able to tell. Yeah, that was part one of three of this tamper-resistant packaging. That little plastic seal over the top of the bottle

after you open it, or no, no, no, the plastic is over the cap on the outside of the bottle. Yeah, like the plastic foil. And then the actual foil was over the mouth of the bottle that we all have to poke through now to pull out the cotton and whatever still uses cotton. None of that existed until the beginning of 1983. So all three of these are put in place within six weeks.

Not only that, they said, you know what? We're gonna introduce the Kaplet, which everyone knows now. We didn't have them back then. Everything was a little capsule that you could literally pull apart. And you could snort the Tylenol if you wanted to. Sure, I'm quite sure some people did.

I'm sure someone did. But the Kaplet is, you know, a tablet coated with the easy to swallow gelatin. It's solid. It's, I imagine you could tamper with it. And even, I even saw with all these things in place, they said nothing is tamper-proof. But these measures really went a long way

to restore the public, you know, well, like the good feelings about what was going on. Yeah. Within about a year, Tylenol, or Johnson and Johnson managed to win the public's trust back in Tylenol. That's hard to believe. A year. That was really fast.

But it also goes to show like just how perfectly they did everything from that, from the time they committed to it on. Yeah. And I feel like I remember like commercials with CEOs and stuff addressing the public. He became, I can't remember his name. I don't want to say Joffrey Beam,

but it's like a shoe brand. Gabby Johnson? No. Bill Johnson. No. Jimmy Johnson? Yes. I can't remember his name, but he,

Jimmy Johnson is way far away from that. But he became a public face. He would, you know, go on to 60 Minutes and he talked to Dan Rather and Ted Koppel and all those cats. Like he was out there like showing how much the company cared. Yeah.

And it had a huge effect. And then in 1983, Congress got involved. They passed what they dubbed the Tylenol bill, which basically says if you do something like this, it's now a federal offense. A few years later in 1989, the FDA actually established guidelines for all manufacturers of any product really

to make it tamper-proof. Yeah, because it wasn't just the OTC manufacturers that started doing this. They followed suit very quickly when Tylenol came out with it because they kind of had to if they wanted to keep up with Tylenol. But also the manufacturers of everything,

like every product, every consumer product started putting their products in like tamper-proof packaging. They had to. Like dial soap started coming, wrapped in cellophane inside the box. To trap the chemicals in. I guess.

But also to show like nobody's injected this with lye or something like that. Although lye is used in the making of soap, isn't it? I remember my fight club. It's pretty funny. Someone injected soap into the soap. All right, let's take another break and we'll come back and talk a little bit more

about the profile of the supposed madpoisoner right after this. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s. We lived it and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews,

co-stars, friends, and non-stop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting Frosted Tips? Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL Instant Messenger

and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s.

Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s, called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough or you're at the end of the road. Ah, OK, I see what you're doing.

Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS

because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so will my husband, Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yep, we know that, Michael. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life, step by step. Oh, not another one.

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All right, so this was a very big case at the time, obviously, like we've been saying, it was a landmark case. So of course, you're going to get psychological profiles, which, you know, we should do one on profiling, actually. Have we done that? I don't think so. That'd be a good one. Because it always seems like the trope in movies and TV.

But it is kind of like that. No, it is a thing for sure. It's not like they just make this stuff up. But in the end, they said, you know, this is probably a man in his 20s or 30s who was sort of a Jekyll and Hyde type. During the day, he's very ordinary. He could be in the desk cubicle next to you,

and you wouldn't even know it. Every once in a while, you just hear him go, whoa. Yeah, exactly. But deep in the recesses of his brain, everyone, he's plagued with self-doubt and has an illusion that a random killing can boost his sense of self-worth. Self-worth? Which is just, sounds like a straight out of a movie.

It sounds like a psychiatrist saying, I want to be on TV. Yeah. Listen to me. They also speculated, and this is just completely like conjecture, was that he had probably already taken his own life after the killings. That was one specific person who said that, yeah.

It was, I think, like the medical examiner for Cook County. Yeah. He probably already jumped off the bridge, so don't worry about it. Don't worry, everybody. Yeah, he just threw that out there. I don't know if it was to calm people or not, but maybe he's just throwing his two cents in.

But I think you kind of said it earlier. I don't remember if it was part one or part two. The whole thing's just blurred and become a haze by now. But no one has ever been charged with the Tylenol murders. Yeah, that's the ending. But there has been a lot, there were a lot of suspects. Remember, Tylenol set up a hotline

and this Tylenol task force, 140 person strong task force investigating this, chasing down leads, taking calls on the hotline, thousands and thousands of calls that were coming in. They were trying to whittle those down into actual tips that were worth pursuing. And out of all of them, they deemed 1,200 tips or 1,200 leads worth checking out.

That's a lot of leads for a case, even considering you had 140 people working them. And I read somewhere that they started out with like 20,000 suspects or something like that and whittled it down to 400. Yeah, and sort of the sad part is, as quickly as they sort of figured a lot of this out and had that 140 person task force,

they almost just as quickly within a few months realized that like, we don't have a very good chance at finding this person. Yeah, it became clear very quickly. Yeah, they whittled that down by the last week of October, the task force was down to 40 people, by the end of the year it was down to 20. And it was a situation again in 1982

where you didn't have security cameras everywhere. You didn't have credit cards and debit cards creating paper trails. It was a lot easier back then to get away with something like this, to be completely unknown, to walk into a store, maybe slip some Tylenol into your pocket, go out to the parking lot and come back in

and slip them back on the shelf. Yeah, if you're cheap. It was really easy. You won't even go to the trouble of buying it. Yeah, I guess that's a good point. You just steal it and then put it back. But you know, people were using cash, if there were cameras in a place, they were probably trained on employees.

I worked at a Golden Pantry in college. And the only camera we had was directly above us pointing down at the cash register. It was the one at Alps in Atlanta Highway? Alps, no. The one on the east side, College Station Road, I think. Okay. Yeah, very interesting job.

That's the one where I got a job. I needed a job, I got a job at McDonald's. And I showed up, I took the one hour training video and they got my uniform number. I went home and I was supposed to show up the next day and I was just like, I can't do it. I can't go work at McDonald's. And I got the Golden Pantry job later that day.

There you go. Which, hey man. Sure. It's like, sign me up. From Golden Arches to Golden Pantry. That's like a rags to riches story. I was selling beer and cigarettes. Nice, it was pretty great.

You're like, one for you, one for me. Oh, I would never do that. All right, where was I? Oh yeah, I was at Golden Pantry. So the camera's trained on the register. They're not, you know, you could come and go in a store and no one even knows in 1982. Right.

So the cops have nothing to go on. Most importantly, no motive. That was a big one. Because remember, this is just a Jekyll and Hyde type who you'd never suspect. Who's probably at the bottom of the Chicago River. Right, who also is engaged in some senseless, random killings of people.

Anonymous poisoning killing, not even shooting. It just made zero sense whatsoever. So like we said earlier, the cops figured out within about a month, within the first month of the investigation that this was, they were not gonna have a break in this case. But it's not to say that they didn't have some suspects. Some people definitely did kind of come to the fore,

but not many of them. Yeah, but these two are really interesting sub-stories in and of themselves. For sure. The first guy's name was, last name Arnold. First name Roger. Roger, that's right. I call him Richard.

That's all right. But for good reason. Oh sure, because you said he was like the Richard Jewel of his day, the Olympic bomber who was not the bomber. Right, but whose life was ruined because he basically was implicated as the Olympic bomber. Right. Same thing happened to this guy.

Yeah, he was one of the first named suspects, 49 year old guy. So put yourself in the position, okay? The media is going berserk on the story. Everybody hears about it. It's a mad anonymous poisoner. And now all of a sudden there's a name and a face associated with it who's a suspect,

but he's the first person named. Oh yeah. It's like people going crazy, like trying to get to this guy to interview him. Yeah, I have my doubts about this guy. Not that he did that, but there were a lot of hinky things that they found out about him.

Sure. And then how it all ended up. Yeah. As you're about to see. So he was a DIY chemist. That's a big one. That's a big thing right there. Because.

Into chemistry. Yeah, he said he's a Jekyll and Hyde type who's probably into chemistry. That's right. He was a doc hand at Jewel Foods at a warehouse west of Chicago. In Jewel Foods, there are a couple of different Jewel Foods are where the Tylenol was bought.

It's like a grocery store, a food market. It's all checking out so far. Yeah. So the cops look into him and go to his house. He has a book, a handbook rather, on methods of killing people. How to kill people, A to Z. I don't know if that's the title,

but that's a good one. He had five unregistered guns. It's a big one. He admitted to having cyanide. Once. Yeah, but he said I threw it out like at least six months before these murders. He's like, when were the murders again?

Oh yeah, six months before that. That's when it was. And then his wife said, they're investigating her and interviewing her. She was like, you know what, actually, I did take some Tylenol. I felt really sick and threw up one time. But again, it was probably due to overeating

and it was just that once. That's the fact of the podcast. So like you can't blame cops for saying this guy is a pretty good lead. Yeah, because you can kind of start to see. Like if you add all the other stuff together and then hear about the wife throwing up from Tylenol, be like, could you see this guy?

Like toying with his wife, like testing it out on her, just enough to make her sick, but not to kill her to see what happens, see if she would notice. Who knows? But the cops thoroughly investigated this guy and cleared him. There's not a person associated with the story that I came across who said,

I actually think this guy did it. I didn't find one person who thought Roger Arnold actually did it, but in very short order, he proved that he was more than capable of murder because six months after he was cleared as a suspect, he was brought in for the murder of somebody else. A guy named John Staniscia, Staniscia. Staniscia, I would say.

Yeah, I'm going with that too. Son Slovak or something. Yeah, he was 46, he was a Chicago computer consultant. Which is, that's saying something in 1982. Yeah, probably so. Yeah. So here's what happened. Arnold, there was this bartender named,

or bar owner named Marty Sinclair, who Arnold had thought had initially turned him into the cops and ruined his life essentially. So he goes to kill who he thinks is Marty Sinclair, and it's actually this just completely innocent random guy who gets shot point blank. And so he in fact did kill somebody. He did.

Because of what had happened to his life. It was premeditated murder, even though it was the wrong person, he was definitely, he created an intentional homicide. He killed somebody on purpose. Mistaken identity killing though. Right. And because of this,

because it was directly related to the Tylenol poisonings, John Staniscia is frequently considered an eighth victim of the Tylenol killings. Kind of like an honorary victim in this case. But it is kind of appropriate that he just happened to be in the wrong place of the wrong time, a victim of mistaken identity.

Yeah. You know, it would have like a slightly different ring to it if it had been the right guy. The fact that it was the wrong guy, and this poor dude just happened to be in the wrong bar and happened to look like the owner. That's just, it's perfect for this saga. Yeah, I wonder what Marty Sinclair

thought about all that. I'll bet he was not very happy. Probably not. But probably also very relieved. And probably also guilty. Yeah, I would guess there's a touch of that. A range of emotions, I would imagine. Yeah, all over the place.

So Arnold ended up serving 15 years of a 30 year sentence was released in 99 and died nine years later. Yup. So Chuck, before we go on to the main attraction as far as the suspects go. Yeah. I propose that we take a break. Agreed.

Okay, we'll be right back. Stop, you know, stop, stop, you should know, know, stop. On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back

into the decade of the 90s. We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. It's a podcast packed with interviews, co-stars, friends, and nonstop references to the best decade ever. Do you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting Frosted Tips?

Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL Instant Messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper, because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing. Each episode will rival the feeling

of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy, blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s, called on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart Podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass.

The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough, or you're at the end of the road. Ah, okay, I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place,

because I'm here to help. This, I promise you. Oh, God. Seriously, I swear. And you won't have to send an SOS, because I'll be there for you. Oh, man. And so, my husband, Michael.

Um, hey, that's me. Yep, we know that, Michael. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life, step by step. Oh, not another one. Kids, relationships, life in general, can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. Oh, just stop now.

If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody, about my new podcast, and make sure to listen, so we'll never, ever have to say bye, bye, bye. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. All right, Chuck, so this dude, there was basically two suspects in this whole case.

Out of over all these years, there were basically two people. And again, no one was ever actually charged with the murders. But this guy came awfully close, and his name was James Lewis. Or was it? It turns out it was. But James Lewis came under the attention of the Chicago PD and the Tylenol Task Force.

When the letter showed up at Johnson & Johnson headquarters, and it was from, allegedly, the Tylenol poisoner, the mad poisoner. And in the letter, it said basically like, I've spent $50 so far, and the whole thing has taken me about 10 minutes per bottle, and I've already killed seven people. I basically see no reason to stop, pay me $1 million,

and then I will stop the killings. He gave a bank account number. He said, wire me this money. Very, very presciently. No, that's not the right word. Stupidly? Maybe. But is it?

No, it's not. So this letter has a New York postmark, but the bank account is associated with the travel agency in Chicago. And so the cops go, OK, this seems to like it was dropped in our lap, but let's go check it out. And they find the owner of this travel agency that

had closed up and gone under. And this guy is like, oh my god, you're kidding me. He's like, no, I didn't write this letter, but I can guarantee I can tell you who did. There's a guy named Robert Richardson. Robert Richardson, it turned out, was the husband of a woman named Nancy Richardson, who had worked at the travel agency.

And when the travel agency went belly up, Nancy lost her job and never got her last paycheck. Well, Robert Richardson was the type of guy who would fixate on this and was even more so the type of guy who would write a letter to frame the owner of the travel agency for the Tylenol murderers in retaliation for that last paycheck. He was that kind of dude.

And so the cops started sniffing into this Robert Richardson cat, and they figured out pretty quickly that Robert Richardson didn't actually exist, that he was actually somebody else, a man named James Lewis. Right. So when we joked earlier about is that his real name, and you said it was, it was. It was.

His name was not Robert Richardson, though. That was an alias. So what they found out was that Robert Richardson was a tax consultant. He had, and this is just a strange ironic twist, when he was 20 years old, he tried to take his own life by swallowing aspirin. 36 of them.

Yeah. So that's just neither here nor there, but an interesting little side note. Yeah, the fact that most people don't have that as part of their past, it is interesting that it came up. So he had a pretty long rap sheet. He was wanted by postal inspectors for credit card fraud in Kansas City.

He was indicted in 1978, and this one is just mind blowing. He's indicted for murder after police found remains of one of his former clients in bags in his attic, and he got let loose because it was an illegal search. But he was caught with the body of one of his clients, dismembered in his attic with no good explanation as far as I've ever heard.

Yeah, well, what explanation would be good? Well, we were playing poker, and one thing led to another, and yada yada yada. He started juggling swords, and yeah. So his wife's real name was Leanne, the one who worked at the travel agency and went unpaid. They fled Kansas City in December of 1981, and this was as US postal inspectors were converging

on them about this credit card scheme. So they're like just bad people. Not the postal inspectors. No, no, no. The Lewises, sure. They're great. So they moved to Chicago. They changed their names to Robert Nancy Richardson.

He got that job as a tax preparer, but then he was fired after a violent outburst in his office against his co-workers. And then she lost her job, went unpaid, they left Chicago. And this turns out, this is what got them exonerated from the Tylenol thing, is they left Chicago and moved to New York before this happened. Right, before those same months.

Right, but if the theory held up that this person went around, most likely in one day and did all this stuff, then it couldn't have been them. No, and here's why, because the cops had decided that it was done locally. And one of the other things that supported that local mad poisoner theory was because the cyanide ate through the gelatin capsules eventually.

So it had a very, very short shelf life before the whole bottle just turned into a mush of cyanide powder and melted gelatin. So like you said, it had to have been done basically the day before the 29th, on the 28th. They could not, no matter how hard they tried, they could not put James Lewis or his wife in Chicago that day. Right.

They just couldn't. And for his part, James Lewis said, yeah, I wrote this letter. I wrote the letter to Johnson and Johnson framing that travel agency guy. But I did not poison the Tylenol. He was always been adamant about that. He's never toyed around with it.

He's never messed around. He's never been coy. He's always been adamant that he did not poison the Tylenol. Although, the Tylenol task force tried to trip him up once. I guess to just get this on the record that he'd done this, but they asked him like in an interview, okay, let's say you had done it. How would you have done it?

And he actually, He pulled an OJ. He showed them how he would have done it. Right. Yeah, he just didn't write a book about it. He just showed him in an interview. Yeah, and he defends this later on by saying, it was just a speculative scenario.

I could tell you how Julius Caesar was killed, but that doesn't mean I was the killer. Right. I think the answer for me would have been, I don't know, man, I'm innocent. I can't figure this out, but he was like, here's how I do it. I've been waiting for you to ask me this.

He's eventually found in New York City. He's at the public library with a reference book, copying names and addresses of newspapers. I would imagine to send them letters like Zodiac style. Yeah, because so we got to say this. So the cops figured out who James Lewis was before they found James Lewis. And it became part of the national media circus.

It was a manhunt. While they were looking for James Lewis. This guy was writing letters to newspapers. He called in a radio talk show. He was really relishing the fact that there was a national manhunt out for him. Who like? That's what I'm saying.

On the one hand, you gotta kind of feel a little bit bad that this guy was kind of being railroaded into the rap for these murders. After his extortion attempt. That's where the feeling bad for him just, you're like, oh yeah, that's right. He totally brought this on himself. Yeah, so they hauled him out of the New York public library.

He was sentenced to 10 years for extortion attempt and 10 years for that original credit card fraud and served 13 years and lives in the greater Boston area today. So still today, I think there are a few people who are like, I could see this guy. Maybe, maybe he could be it. Some detectives maintain

that the Tylenol murder could have flown into O'Hare, rented a car, done that circuit, flown or driven back to O'Hare and flown out all in the same day the day before. But they could never put James Lewis in Chicago at all that day. So he was cleared finally, although he did serve two consecutive 10 year sentences

or he served 13 of the 20 years for that credit card fraud that the postal inspectors wanted him for and for the extortion letter. And like you said, he lives in Cambridge, Mass now. But then in 2009, the case after basically having gone dormant in the early 80s was reignited by the FBI because they worked up,

they thought a DNA profile from the capsules and they raided James Lewis's house, demanded a fingerprint and DNA sample. James and Lee Ann Lewis fought it in court. The judge is like, no, you have to do this before leaving the courthouse. They gave him the samples and nothing has come of it. So I guess that means tacitly

that the Lewis's were cleared once and for all of the Tylenol murders. Yeah, and the DNA thing is an interesting piece because they still have some samples of the cyanide. Cyanide, I guess that the capsules have worn away by now if it had the cyanide in there. But there was and still is hope that DNA could crack this case.

Just like eight or nine years ago, the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, is that a two-parter? No. No, it's just a one-parter. Good podcast though. I don't think so. That was a good episode. Sure. He grew up in Chicago and his parents

were living in the greater Chicago area in 82 and he is the Unabomber. So they said, we might as well get a DNA sample and talk to him and he was cleared. I don't think he was ever a super strong suspect. And he probably would have admitted it. So he was like, no, this is not me. Right.

So the Unabomber has been cleared. That's right. From the Tylenol murders. But the case remains unsolved to this day. I think they also have a fingerprint workup that they found on one of the bottles and that and some DNA, they're just sitting around with that. There are no suspects, every suspect has been cleared

and there's nobody on the horizon. It's just an unsolved random series of killings that happened. Yeah, they're still working on it though. There's a police sergeant named Scott Winkleman who has been on this task force for a long time and he says, he thinks it's solvable. And his department did just solve a 45 year old murder case, cold case.

Man, if they solved this one, that would be the biggest cold case ever solved. I think, I think, I mean, who knows, but I could see maybe finding like a deathbed letter or something one day. Maybe. Like, I don't know if they're going to catch someone. At the bottom of the Chicago River.

And haul them off to jail, but I could see the truth coming out one day. I hope so for the families because Monica Janis, she's the niece of Adam Stanley and Teresa. She said her family to this day, this is from an article like last year, I think, said that they have still not gotten over it. She said her grandparents have passed now,

but she said literally every day for the rest of their lives, they just cried about the fact that they didn't know who did it. She grew up, it has been a therapy her whole life because they were all victims, you know, that this post-traumatic stress disorder kicks in, where she grew up fearing that any of her family members could die at any time.

Oh, and that article, by the way, it was really good. It was called the Tylenol Murders, colon, is it too late to solve the famous cold case? And that was from A&E Real Crime and written by Jamie Bartoch. Nice. Joseph Manis, her dad says that he still has dreams, like, you know, on the reg about these murders.

He said he had one recently where everyone involved was in a room in the case, and then two black men in suits and glasses were laughing about how they got away with murder. Michelle Rosen, she's the daughter of Mary Reiner. Right. She has dedicated her life to investigating this on her own, and she doesn't agree with the Mad Poisoner theory at all.

No, this is interesting. Yeah, she thinks it had something to do with the supply chain. And that Johnson and Johnson knew this and covered it up. Yeah. One of the things that people who believe this point to is that Johnson and Johnson recalled all of that Tylenol, 31 million bottles, and then destroyed them, allegedly,

without testing any of it. So we will never know whether it was... Pinky had the day off. Right, whether it was beyond Chicago or just local to Chicago. Seems like it took long enough that other people would have died in that week before the national recall was undertaken.

But there was something very, very interesting that was a post-script to all this that does undermine that Mad Poisoner theory. Yeah, it was just a few years later, in 1985, a woman in New York named Diane Ellsroth took two extra-strength Tylenol capsules and died from cyanide poisoning. But they found, I mean, it's just completely unrelated.

Was it another copycat case? Well, or the original Poisoner, maybe, but different cyanide. Right, the cyanide was definitely not the same size, except from the same batch. It was chemically different. But there was another bottle found around the block from where Mary Ellsroth bought hers in Yonkers

that did match that cyanide. So there were two bottles of extra-strength Tylenol two years later in another state that had been tampered with. The problem is, this was after the three-prong tamper-resistant packaging had been introduced. Which means it was an inside job, right? I guess, because the tamper,

the thing had not been obviously tampered with. Then Tylenol was never able to explain what happened. Yeah, and then within five days of her death, eight states outright banned the capsules, Tylenol capsules. Right, and Tylenol, for its part, was like, we've been trying to get everybody to take caplets anyway, but they keep taking capsules, so we're making it. And then a guy wrote a book, right?

Scott Bartz. Yeah, a former Johnson & Johnson employee wrote in 2011 a self-published book on the Tylenol poisonings. And he said, what we were talking about earlier, he's like, this supply chain is so convoluted. Right. Basically, it definitely could have happened

at any point along the way. And his idea is that Johnson & Johnson knew that it was in their distribution network, and they covered it up. Self-published book. Yeah, you gotta note that for sure. I'm not knocking it. No.

But it's noteworthy. It does. If there's any hint of journalistic integrity in us that feels like we have to note that. Sure. So that's the Tylenol poisonings of 1982 in Chicago, changed America, changed the world, but definitely changed America.

It was the end of some form of innocence that we still had. Absolutely. If you want to know more about the Tylenol poisonings, go online. There's stuff all over the place, and you can go down that rabbit hole, and it's deep and wide.

Since I said that, it's time for Listener Man. This is from Jen from Brunswick, Maine. Hey guys, I've been listening for several years and never thought I'd have a, never thought a perfect time to write in would be related to synthetic farts. Remember the Disgust episode? Yeah.

We talked about synthetic farts. It's a real thing. When I was in high school, my dad came across this stuff online called Liquid A.S.S. That is horrible. Not allowed to curse, right? No.

Is that a curse word? We can spell it out, though. Sure. Or I guess maybe you should have said like, A. asterisk asterisk? Yeah, there you go. That's a good name for a product, though. She said, he found it on a joke website

and ordered some and I have to tell you, it is the worst thing you've ever smelled. I can't even describe it. It makes you want to not breathe anymore. The tiniest little drop is deadly. So of course I took it to college with me to play pranks and boy did it backfire. I thought it was pretty funny

putting a couple of drops in the radiator by my across the hall friends room, not even thinking about what would happen when the heat turned on. Well, the heat turned on and the whole floor of the dorm was amazingly disgusting and made us just about gag.

Smell took almost a week to finally go away and have not used it again in the 10 year since. That's probably, it's called learning your lesson. The hallway. But she still has the bottle. She's like, but I kept it. Right, just in case. Thank you for your interesting and entertaining podcast.

This is the first podcast ever listened to and it's still always on the top of my download list. Thanks. Thanks for giving this 28 year old woman a platform on which to tell a story of synthetic farts that is not completely out of place. Sign anonymous. That is Jen Green.

Thanks, Jen Green. Very brave of you to put your name on that one. Especially, I wonder if you stepped up and said that horrible smell, that was my bad. Right. If you have a great story about college pranks, we want to hear about it. You can get in touch with us via our social links

by going to stuffyoushouldknow.com or you can send us an email to stuffpodcast at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen

to your favorite shows. On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called, David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back

into the decade of the 90s. We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,

or wherever you listen to podcasts.