Stuff You Should Know - Uses of the Insanity Defense

Episode Date: April 18, 2013

The idea that a person who can't understand the crime they've committed is wrong lets them off the hook from culpability for their actions is a longstanding pillar of Western criminal law. Learn about some of the prominent and overlooked cases where the accused has plead insanity in this episode of Stuff You Should Know. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from HowStuffWorks.com Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. I'm hungry. And there's Charles W. Chubb and Brian. Did that make you hungry? It did. We were just talking about, I made my last chili of the season and Josh is over here mouth watering.

Yeah, because you were talking about tortilla soup, white chili, red chili. I'll eat any kind of chili, really. And Jerry always eats in here. People don't know that. She eats lunch while we record. So the smell of her stuff always wafts over. It's delicious. That avocado looks top notch, Jerry.

It's insane how good that stuff is. Oh man. It's funny that you bring that up, Chuck, because we are talking today about the Insanity Defense. Is that why you just did that? Yeah. You know, Chuck, for a very long time, basically since there was such a thing as law, you know, prior to the advent of law in Western civilization, if I killed your brother, you would come

kill me. Yeah. I've run out. Right. That was actually the first law, the Code of Hammurabi. Yeah, from the Bible. But a little after that, right, and actually, I think it predates the Bible. Hammurabi.

Oh yeah. Yeah, man. It's like on a black obelisk. Yeah. All right. That's old, is what I mean. Pretty much the whole idea behind law from the get-go was the idea of what was going on in your head when you did something.

Right. There's a motive, intent, there's a difference between accidentally killing somebody and killing someone on purpose. And this was the idea behind law, to get to the bottom of it and then punish accordingly. And so it's a pretty short hop skip and a jump from getting to the bottom of what someone was thinking at the time to finding that some people weren't thinking anything that any sane human being would recognize as rational. And with that understanding came the beginnings, the premise of what we recognize now as the

insanity defense. But this whole idea that somebody can, that the insane, those who are mentally ill, can't understand or grasp the criminality, the moral wrongness of their act, the idea that that's out there, that people like that are out there, has moved us, I think quite compassionately, like this check one for humanity in my opinion, to protect them. We need to make sure they don't do that again, but that's not evil. Right. And the point of law is to punish evil.

Right? Evil doers. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. So from the beginning of understanding this to even to today, that the insanity defense has undergone evolution after evolution after evolution. Yeah.

And you know quite a bit about this. A little bit. It started out in 16th century England. And at the time, they had the wild beast test in England, where a person was so depraved of understanding or memory of like what they had done, that quote, no more than an infant a brute or a wild beast could be found not guilty of his crimes. And it's important to say insanity is not a medical condition. Like you can't look it up and define insane in like the medical, what's the book, the

DS? DSM. DSM. Yeah. Insanity is not in there. I don't think. And there's no single standard in the United States for defining it in the court system. Is that right?

As far as the defense goes. Even today? Well, like different states have different methods. Oh, gotcha. There's not like a single federal standard. Yeah. And there's actually a conversation now of whether or not that should be, that's a constitutional right protected by the Eighth Amendment.

Yeah, exactly. That you are, you have a right to plead insanity or try to prove that you're insane. And yeah, because some states don't recognize it, right? Yeah. As we'll find out. So there's a couple of different tests that the United States generally operate under. And the first one is the Monotten test, how do you pronounce that? I think Monotten.

Monotten. It's amapostrophe-naughton. And it looks like it should be mignotten, but they left the C out and replaced it with an apostrophe. Exactly. So he's very stylish. Monotten. And that was in the UK in the 1840s.

And I guess we should go ahead and talk about that case now. Well, Daniel Monotten. Yeah. Yeah. He's a Scottish woodworker who believed that Prime Minister Robert Peel and the Pope were plotting against him. Oh, the Pope too? Yeah.

Yeah. So Monotten went to London and he shot and killed Peel's secretary. Now, was that a mistake in the identity thing or was it just a bad shot? I didn't see. Okay. So he killed the wrong person. Yes. But he did kill that person with the intent of killing Peel because he thought that Peel

was out to get him. Right. Yeah. And so Peel was, he was tried, but he was acquitted by reason of insanity. And he was sentenced to life in Bedlam, which was not a nice place to be. No, it just sounds like, you know, why would you name it Bedlam unless it was just awful? Well, you know, there's... Is that where it comes from?

Yeah. Okay. Because Bedlam is like kind of a British, I think it was open, it was open in 1247 and it was kind of short for Bethlehem. And it was the first mental asylum in Europe. Yeah. And this guy was sentenced to life there, which is, that's, that was not a nice thing to have happen to you.

But even still, the fact that some guy tried to kill the prime minister and was not thrown into prison, which I imagine was even worse than Bedlam, Queen Elizabeth herself came out and said, what are you guys doing? Courts, explain yourselves. And what the courts came up with was what came to be known as the Maynoton rule. They said, if you, here's a test for insanity. If somebody doesn't know what they're doing at the time they commit the crime, or they don't know what they're doing was right or wrong, it's also called the right-wrong test.

Then from now on, under British law, we're going to uniformly say that that person is insane and can be acquitted of a crime. They really called it the right-wrong test? Yeah. That's all I'm going to say. So that's a Maynoton test and we'll get to how that applies today. And then came along, American Law Institute, the ALI established an insanity test in 1962 laid out in the Model Penal Code and they then began to consider what they called irresistible

impulse. So if you're a defendant, you could not refrain from doing something you knew was wrong. Like you see red, you know it's wrong to kill someone, but you just couldn't help yourself. Like what you might call a crime of passion or something like that, like you're so overwhelmed with rage or vengeance or whatever, you know what you're doing is wrong, but you can't stop yourself. It's also called the volition rule. Yeah.

You're doing it under your own volition. Like Shawshank, for instance, although he didn't really kill anyone, but that's what they thought was Tim Robbins had walked in on his wife and like shot this guy. So under this test, you're criminally insane if you're unable to, quote, appreciate the criminality of conduct or to conform your conduct to the requirements of the law. So you can still go out and kill someone and use gloves and dispose of the body and all that stuff and still be considered insane under the standard used to was pretty, it was pretty controversial.

Yeah. And then 20 years after that, a guy named John Hinckley changed all that again, which led to the insanity defense reform act of 84. So what happened with Hinckley? We all remember that, right? Yeah. He went after Reagan to impress Jody Foster. That's right.

And he shot Reagan. And he was acquitted. He was found not guilty by reason of insanity and the nation went crazy. Yeah. People were like, because it was the president, you know, like how can you quit this guy? Right. Well, not only that, it was when Minotin was sentenced to bedlam and the Minotin rule came about for about a hundred years after that, maybe a little less.

If you were found insane, whether or not you're acquitted, you still spent the rest of your life in an insane asylum. As psychology progressed further and further and got to the point where they're like, hey, this person's cured, this person's cured, that person's cured. Sometimes when you were found not guilty by reason of insanity, you weren't even, like you got out after a couple of years. It was basically tantamount to getting off. And by the time Hinckley was acquitted, the public kind of saw that that was the case.

Like he wasn't going to get any kind of punishment and we need to do something. So it came up with a reform for the insanity defense. Yeah. And basically that sort of put the ALI standard aside and brought us back to something more like the Minotin rule. And even more significantly, probably, the federal and state shifted the burden of proof after Hinckley to defense. So you had to, instead of being on the prosecution, it was on the defense to prove that they were

with clear evidence that they were legally insane at the time. So that was a big deal, that shift. Yeah. And yeah, they did away with the Volition rule too, right? I think so. And it's important to know that when you, there's two ways to use the insanity rule. You can go guilty by reasons of insanity or not guilty by reasons of insanity, which is interesting that you can use the same thing for guilt or not guilty.

But it's there to protect the mentally ill, so it's a good thing. And it's not, it's pretty tough to get it through, like only 1% of cases are successful and then only about 15 to 25% of that 1% are actual acquittals. So it's not like, oh, I was insane at the time and so you can't throw me in jail. Yeah. Well, it's pretty rare. At the time is a really big thing too. You can't just be like, oh, well, I'm mentally ill, so you got to let me off because then

I have blanket immunity from any of my actions. You have to be able to prove that. At that time, you didn't understand what you were doing was wrong. You were not competent to, I guess, stand trial for that. And convince a jury of that, which is, that's the trick. So we have some famous cases here. Yeah. Menon, his case came in 1843.

But he wasn't the first one in the West to, I guess, get off for being insane, acquitted by reason of insanity. In the United States back in 1835, a guy named Richard Lawrence, who was a house painter, was acquitted by reason of insanity. Trying to kill the president. Yeah. Trying to kill him really hard too. Andrew Jackson was the president at the time.

Yeah, I don't think I knew this until this article. I didn't either. No? Okay. I'm not a dummy then. He had a derringer, and I think derringers at the time were notorious for not firing all the time. It's fired.

It fired, but it didn't shoot a bullet. So it went off, but the bullet didn't come out. Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. They were known for not firing correctly. I got you. And he actually had two derringers, and they both misfired. And apparently Jackson went after him with his cane, like, you know, this dude was trying to kill me.

Like there was no secret service at the time. I guess secret service was his cane. Right, he happened to be coming out of a state funeral, and so not only did Andrew Jackson beat this guy with his cane, none other than Tennessee Senator Davey Crockett helped to subdue the guy. Really? Yeah. Of course he did.

Yeah. Richard Lawrence is like, this is awesome. I'm getting beat by Davey Crockett and Jackson. I'll be remembered forever. Yeah. And he was, and is, if you'd know about him. But he was acquitted and committed to a mental asylum, and that was the end of Richard Lawrence as far as we know.

Yeah, and we should say like he was, it wasn't just going after the president that made him insane. He was, he believed he was Richard the third. Yeah. The king who was recently found buried beneath the parking lot. Oh yeah, yeah. He thought he was Richard the third, and that Andrew Jackson had killed his father, and that by killing Andrew Jackson, a lot more money would be available.

This is during a depression. And Jackson actually, for his part, came to believe that Richard Lawrence was a patsy in an assassination attempt carried out by the rival, I think, Whig party. Yeah. Who wanted him out of the presidency. Which wasn't true. No, but he's put the rest of his life paranoid about it. Oh really?

Yeah. The war on drugs impacts everyone, whether or not you take drugs. America's public enemy number one is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute 2200 pounds of marijuana. Yeah, and they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs, of course, yes, they can do that, and I'm a prime example of that. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff.

Stuff that'll piss you off. The property is guilty, exactly. And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. The cops, are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging? They just have way better names for what they call, like what we would call a jack move or being robbed.

They call civil answer for it. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you crave a good mystery? Tune in to the great detectives of old time radio podcasts featuring episodes of different detective dramas from the golden age of radio every day Monday through Saturday. The lineup of radio detectives currently includes Sam Spade, Dr. Tim Detective, Dangerous Assignment, Follow Vance, Yours Truly Johnny Dollar, and Tales of the Texas Rangers.

I'm your host Adam Graham, and I offer commentary and humor after each episode, and also respond to your questions and feedback. Enjoy a good mystery before bed, while driving, or whenever you crave old school radio goodness. Listen to the great detectives of old time radio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, so Ezra Pound, poet, writer, and unbeknownst to me, anti-Semite, and fascist. I had no idea. I didn't either.

And this was a tricky case because most people believe now that he wasn't insane and that he just really knew the right people and pulled the right strings to get out of a crime. So he was a big Mussolini guy, moved to Italy in 1925, and started doing radio broadcasts, began writing and broadcasting these anti-Semitic, anti-Rosevelt rants during World War II. That doesn't sit well with the United States, of course. Especially not when we invade Italy and take over. And so it was an act of treason, and he was arrested and imprisoned in Italy. And then after Mussolini died, he was extradited, faced these charges, and he pled insanity,

and was actually found not competent to stand trial, and spent the rest of his days in a mental asylum, St. Elizabeth's in D.C., Washington, D.C. He didn't spend the rest of his days. He got out in 1958. Oh, I thought he died in 1958. And while he was at St. Elizabeth's, which was headed by a devotee of Ezra Pound, a guy named Dr. Winfred Overholster Sr. That's not a real name.

I swear. He was the head of St. Elizabeth's, and he thought Pound was just one of the greatest literary figures alive. Oh, I thought he died there. And no. And so he vouched for him, and basically Pound was allowed to have visitors over for sex any time, and he had a really cushy life while he was there, and got out, and got around being tried for treason.

Even though he was never declared insane, no doctor ever said this man's insane. They just vouched for him that he was, I can't remember how they put it, but basically they got around it with semantics. Office rocker. Is that the legal term? That's what they call them. The next one is pretty interesting, too. Anthony and William Esposito brothers dubbed the Mad Dog Killers in 1941 in January in

New York City. They held up their office manager and office manager for about 650 bucks and then shot and killed him. And then this wild police chase on foot down Fifth Avenue or up Fifth Avenue in Manhattan like darting in and out of department stores, shooting and stuff. One of the guys gets popped in the leg, goes down, plays dead, and then shoots and kills the officer as he approaches him. That's a dirty rat.

Oh man, that's such a dirty rat move. The other guy, or when he shot and killed the cop, he got up and started to run off and a bunch of New Yorkers got on top of him and beat him unconscious. That's the beauty of New York. And they found the other guy, his brother, in a convenience store and so they were caught and tried and throughout the trial they barked and drooled and banged their heads on the desk because apparently this is what insane people do. Exactly.

And the jury didn't buy it and convicted them both sentenced them to death, actually. Yeah. And while they were at Sphinxing, they continued this, I mean, I don't know if people thought it was real or not, so I hesitate to say continued the charade because maybe they were a little off but they continued this in prison and they basically didn't care in Sphinxing and they were put to death in 1942. So unsuccessful in their bid to get off on the insanity rule. Yeah.

Like you said, only as effective in 1% of cases. Andrew Goldstein? Yeah. I remember this going down. Do you really? Yeah. This is such a sad case. 1999, he pushed a woman named Kendra Webdale in front of the end train at the 23rd Street

Station during a psychotic episode and this was a true case of someone who was deeply, deeply troubled. You know, it wasn't someone who said, let me use the insanity defense because I didn't know what I was doing at the time. He started off his life as a pretty bright guy and then started suffering delusions in college and had been in and out of psychiatric hospitals, had violent episodes with his mother. Violent behavior basically committed, self-committed 13 times over a two-year period and was just released a few weeks before he had pushed this poor woman in front of the train, which

killed her. Yeah. And as a result of her death, New York came up with something called Kendra's Law, which gives judges the power to forcibly commit people they think need psychiatric attention for up to 72 hours, which is a big deal. But in this case, it doesn't quite jive from what I understand because Goldstein did voluntarily seek treatment. Oh, yeah.

I guess that makes sense. It's just a sad case. He was tried three times for it. The first time there was a hung jury, he pled insanity. The second time he was found guilty, but that finding, what would that be called? Verdict. Yeah, that verdict. Man, something's up with me.

That was thrown out on a technicality as I understand it. And then in 2005, he was tried for the third time and pled guilty. Yeah, to manslaughter though, not murder. And he is in prison and he was sentenced to 23 years plus five of probation. And like you said, Kendra's Law was passed as a result. So yeah, very, very sad case. Yeah, there's no, nobody comes out a winner on that. You got one more?

Yeah. John Delling, I mentioned whether or not, well, that there was a discussion about whether or not someone has a constitutional right to plead insanity. This is the guy that brought it up most recently. Back in 2007, he shot over the course of a couple of months, he shot three of his friends. Oh, they were his friends? Yeah. One of them.

One was a childhood friend. Wow. We're friends since childhood. And he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. And he was under the impression that people were stealing his powers. I guess the people that he killed. Yeah. The thing is, even the defense and the judge said, the whole reason that you did this was

because of your mental illness and you, this is a perfect insanity defense. Idaho doesn't recognize the insanity defense. So he was sentenced to two life terms in solitary confinement without parole for the killings. Yeah. And like everyone agreed that this guy was mentally ill. But like you said, wrong state, wrong crime. And that's what prompted, like you were talking about, like, should this be a federal right?

And you know, after the Hinckley verdict, a lot of states repealed the insanity defense. And then a lot of them went back and reinstated it. Under different terms. Yeah. Like Utah, for example, repealed it and then allowed it to come back, but it's next to impossible to prove it under the definition that's out there. Idaho was like, no, there's no insanity defense. And I think there's a couple other states too.

Wow. Well, that's all the cases I have. Same here, man. Got any more? No. It's definitely, I mean, it's there to help the mentally ill. But I think you're right. For a little while there, it was, you know, plead insane, go to a hospital for a few years,

get out. Well, you know, what's interesting is we talked about. We talked about them getting rid of the volition rule, right? Yeah. But like just quickly Lorraine and Bob, she was basically temporarily insane, and she was acquitted of her actions assault. And the Dahmer was a very famous case too. Yes, but his insanity plea didn't work out.

Because the jury believed he knew what he was doing was wrong. Neither did his prison stay. You know, that guy's, he's trying to write a book, the guy who killed him. No, I didn't know that. Yeah, I'm kind of interested too, because he always, like there's not a whole lot of information on, what's his name? Somebody Carver. Clarence Carver, I think.

No, you're thinking of the saxophonist for the Bruce Springsteen band. That's Clarence Clemens. And he's passed away. His name is Christopher Scarver. Clarence Carter, Carver, Christopher Scarver. Clarence Clemens passed away. Yeah, man. When?

Like last year, I think. I didn't know that. Yeah, it said. So anyway, he's trying to write a book, and I was always curious, because there's not a lot of information like why he killed, he killed those two guys that day. Oh, he killed someone else that day? Yeah, he killed, he was on bathroom duty with two other dudes, two other murderers, Dahmer and another guy.

And I think he got a piece of, like a metal bar from the gym and beat them to death. And he wants to write a book now to like explain why he did it and to reveal Dahmer's final words, which, you know, it's very salacious. But of course I'm like, ooh, what'd he say? Well, I hope he does do it and then finds out later on that you're not legally allowed to profit from your crime. Oh, yeah, that's true. So he wouldn't be able to, if you listen to this, I didn't just say that, Scarver.

I don't think he's listening. Okay. People do listen to this in prison. We know that for a fact. Yeah, he's probably making a mulled wine and a sock. You got anything else on mulled wine? Nope. Okay.

We're going to continue to learn more about the Insanity Defense. There's a great article on HowStuffWorks.com called 10 Uses of the Insanity Defense. And there's another one called What is the Definition of Insanity, right? Yeah, which we'll go back. We may want to do that one in full. We'll see if it's got more stuff in there. Yeah. You can check both of those out by typing Insanity into search bar, the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com.

Because as I said, search bar, that means it's time for this. The war on drugs impacts everyone, whether or not you take drugs. America's public enemy number one is drug abuse. This podcast is going to show you the truth behind the war on drugs. They told me that I would be charged for conspiracy to distribute 2,200 pounds of marijuana. Yeah, and they can do that without any drugs on the table. Without any drugs, of course, yes, they can do that, and I'm the prime example of that. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff.

Stuff that'll piss you off. The property is guilty. Exactly. And it starts as guilty. It starts as guilty. The cops. Are they just like looting? Are they just like pillaging?

They just have way better names for what they call, like what we would call a jack move or being robbed. They call civil acid for it. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you crave a good mystery? Tune in to the great detectives of old time radio podcasts featuring episodes of different detective dramas from the golden age of radio every day, Monday through Saturday.

The lineup of radio detectives currently includes Sam Spade, Dr. Tim Detective, Dangerous Assignment, Follow Vance, Yours Truly Johnny Dollar, and Tales of the Texas Rangers. I'm your host Adam Graham, and I offer commentary and humor after each episode, and also respond to your questions and feedback. Enjoy a good mystery before bed, while driving, or whenever you crave old school radio goodness. Tune in to the great detectives of old time radio on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, administrative details, if you haven't learned by now, is when we thank people for

sending us nice things. And we're almost done, like we're caught up, man. I have a few on my desk, but that's nothing, like a few is no big deal. Yeah. All right, we got some awesome aluminum prints from Dan Gaffney of Tech Lab Photo in Baltimore. Yeah, thanks, Dan. Yep. You remember him?

We corresponded with him recently. Oh yeah. Thanks, Dan. Is there a website on there? No, but Tech Lab Photo in Baltimore used the old search engine of your choice to figure that out. Yeah, or you can just drive there. Yeah, true.

We got a nice postcard of Jesus' baptismal site in the Jordan River from Christina Curtis, who researches water resources in Jordan. Thank you for that. We got some coffee from singingristercoffee.com. 100% of the proceeds go to helpprojecthady.org, and I think I just said 100% of the proceeds. You sure did. That's pretty awesome, so support singingristercoffee.com. We got a postcard of Minar-E-Pakistan Tower from Irfam.

Thank you very much for that. Don Kubi, our buddy. Yeah. He sent us that awesome, it was on glass, right? Yeah, it's like a cutting board. Oh, is that what that is? I believe so. That's what I've been using it for.

I don't know if that's what it's for. It's got like her photograph underneath, her photograph that she took of like a landscape, but I'm pretty sure it's a cutting board, and you should probably let us know, Kubi. Don't break it. And we also got a letter from Boy Scout Brayden W, who wrote us to earn his communications merit badge, so that was kind of cool. We got a handwritten note card suggesting we do 3D printers from, I think, another Irfan. We're going to have to do that.

Everyone is asking for 3D printing. It's the hot thing. I know, that's what all the kids are into. The Atlanticor vets drum and bugle core patch, and I don't know who sent it, and I apologize that we don't have the name. Yeah, sorry. But the Atlanticor vets drum and bugle core is a patch, and I might put it on a hat. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Wow. We got some nice letters requesting info on unsolved questions like the Bermuda Triangle, Brandenburg Exorcism, from Andrea P., Jake M., Jason S., Stephanie B., and Vanessa B., all from the eighth grade class at North Carroll Middle School in Hampstead, Maryland. Sorry, we didn't write back in time. I believe they're all in high school now. Oh, really?

Yeah, but thank you for writing in, guys. Keep growing up. Awesome insect science illustration postcard from Martha Iserman of BigRedSharks.com, from New Zealand's Not Down Under postcard in New Zealand Facts, and we can't really see who signed it because the post office stamped over it. So see our USPS podcast for why that happens. Right. But we thank you for that.

We got a letter from Benjamin from Gardner's Avenue School in Levittown, New York who wanted info on the Statue of Liberty. Thank you for that. General Radio Astronomy Observatory in New Mexico, since a postcard from Dylan C., and he is in the Navy and an amateur astronomer. Yeah, he said it was like going to, I can't remember where, but it was like a pilgrimage forum. Nice.

Yeah. Let's see. We got an exceptional hand drawn postcard from Alex, who's an artist in North Carolina. We got a CD of the album, The Broken Record by Twink, which is the toy piano band. Did you hear it? Oh, yeah, yeah. Great. Yeah.

La Serena Chile. We got a postcard from Margaret C., from Chile, and coffee and coffee tips from AutoCampa. Oh, yeah. I didn't see the coffee tips. Is there a question mark at the end of that person's name? No. We got a Mexican pizza menu from Christie Thede, which includes like peach, leg of pork, avocado, tuna.

Leg of pork, that just struck my fancy. I would eat some avocado pizza. As a matter of fact, I'm putting avocado on my next pizza. All right. Got some more coffee from Alex with a YX and our friends at the Adina, Minnesota Dunn Brothers Coffee Place. Yeah, thank you for that. Well, you've been getting lots of coffee, huh?

Like, have you had to buy coffee in a couple of years? Oh, it's all gone. Is it? Yeah, that's all from the coffee podcast. Okay. Portrait book of... And I shared. I shared.

Oh, sure. Yeah. I shared. I think I gave some to Conal Bird. Oh, really? And I think Jerry got some too. Didn't you, Jerry? You got coffee.

Okay, yeah. Jerry's like, what? You got it? You got it still here? We got a portrait book of Justin and his cat Waffles of EverythingWaffles.com. Yeah, that's definitely worth checking out. And a postcard of a man with a giant fish from Reagan T. And I think you have one more, right?

I do. Let's see, we got a lovely floral note congratulating you, me, and me on our wedding from Lear Ray. Thank you very much for that. It was very nice. Boy, you have been holding on to these for a while, huh? I know. It was the February before last. Okay.

So thank you for that. Finally. Yeah. Thank you to everybody who's been sending us stuff. We really genuinely appreciate all of it. It's super sweet. And if you want to send us something, you can find the address on the Halstoforks homepage. You scroll down at the bottom of the home page under Contacts and click on that.

It has our address. You can send us something. Oh, well done. Yeah. And if you want to get in touch with us, just to say hi or whatever, you can tweet to us at SYSK Podcast. You can join us on facebook.com. You should know.

You can send us an email to stuffpodcasteddiscovery.com. And you can join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com. For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit howstuffworks.com. The war on drugs is the excuse our government uses to get away with absolutely insane stuff. Stuff that'll piss you off. The cops. Are they just, like, looting? Are they just, like, pillaging?

They just have way better names for what they call, like, what we would call a jack move or being robbed, that you call civil answer for. Be sure to listen to the war on drugs on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hola, qué tal, mi gente. It's Chiquis from Chiquis and Chill Podcast. Welcome to the show. I talk about anything and everything.

I did have a miscarriage when I was 19 years old. And that's why I'm a firm believer and an advocate of therapy and counseling. The person that you saw on stage, the person that you saw in interviews, that was my mother, offstage. Acompanyame every Monday on my podcast, Chiquis and Chill, available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.