Stuff You Should Know - What Was the Deal With the Hatfields and McCoys?

Episode Date: March 29, 2016

It was America's most famous family feud, but the history of the Hatfields vs the McCoys is fraught with bias and inaccuracies. Dig into a disagreement in 19th-century Appalachia that became a very big deal around the world. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On the podcast, Hey Dude, the 90s called, David Lasher and Christine Taylor, stars of the cult classic show, Hey Dude, bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces. We're gonna use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s.

We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it. Listen to Hey Dude, the 90s called on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the new iHeart podcast, Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass

and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place because I'm here to help. And a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life. Tell everybody, ya everybody, about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never, ever have to say. Bye, bye, bye.

Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Chuck, let's go over the stuff you should know concert calendar. My friend, we are hitting the road for the Spring Head Sprung Tour. We are gonna be at the Neptune Theater

in lovely Seattle, Washington on April 8th, my friend. The next day, we're gonna head south to Portland, Oregon, at Revolution Hall, April 9th. We are going to Houston, Texas, my friend. Nice. We're house live on May 28th, Memorial Day weekend. And finally, finishing up Denver, Colorado, at the Gothic Theater on May 29th.

Two more dates coming. Yeah, keep your ears out. And in the meantime, if you wanna get tickets, you can go to sysklive.com, powered by Squarespace. And we'll see you guys on the road. Seattle and Portland, you're selling out fast, so get on it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, from housestuffworks.com.

All right. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clarke, Charles W. Chuck Bryan is staring at me right now. It's making me a tad uncomfortable. Jerry's over there. I can feel her eyes burning into the side of my head. So this is Stuff You Should Know.

Where would you like me to look? But in my ear. That's always so weird. Try it, try it. Someone's like looking- Are you doing it right now? Like right at your hair, or it's so muddy- I find this comfortable.

Really? Yeah. Interesting try my other ear. Oh, yeah, that's that's the stuff the right. Oh, I'm sorry. That's your left. It's my left All right. I'll remember that look watch this Chuck after seven years Can you see that I can wiggle ears independently? Yeah Drives me crazy. So you sit around and do it probably I try not like a good husband Chuck yes, we have a bit of an announcement here. Yeah, you come out what we just heard. Yes. Yeah

We are in the room with either a Hatfield or McCoy Jerry doesn't know which family she's related to she just knows that She's related to one of them. Yeah, like literally right before we press record. She's like oh, by the way, I'm Related to one of these families. I'm just not sure which right and a family member told her But she cousin Tyler was that who was I don't know. I think that's what she said Cousin I get the impression from Jerry story though that she's sort of like Glazed over and that's why she doesn't know right but she does carry a six-shooter on her hip and that explains that This is McCoy on the barrel. Yeah, so maybe right But does that mean that it's a bullet from the McCoy's or for the McCoy's the mystery remains?

You know good point So we are talking about the Hatfields in the McCoy's for those of you who don't live in the United States You probably have heard of the Hatfields in the McCoy's. It's a pretty legendary feud. Yeah, right? We've heard of some of your history UK sure Australia Matthew Flinders. There's a name drop for you Yeah, so hopefully you've heard of the Hatfields in the McCoy's. Yeah I mean there was a if nothing else there was a big miniseries a few years ago on television Yeah with Kevin Costner and Bill Paxton and apparently it was a Really dramatized. Yeah, like it's in fictionalized. Yeah, and sure

It's cinematized and yeah a little not quite fully accurate But at least at least they brought attention to the feud because it needs it agreed. So the Hatfields in the McCoy's Is a family feud so much so that in 1979 The Hatfields and the McCoy's were on the TV show family feud apparently for a full week from what I saw and and I read that The legend has it that it didn't actually inspire the TV show, but I didn't get good verification on that No, and there's been other family feuds, right? Oh, yeah, but none are as famous as the Hatfields in the McCoy's although at the time There were more famous family feuds, but the Hatfields in the McCoy's just lived took it to another level

Yeah, because all of the murder. Yeah, there was a lot of murder. It was mountain folk versus mountain folk Uh-huh families that had been intermarried and worked for one another. Yeah Had lived together for decades if not longer a long side in this little area along the Sandy River, I believe the Big Sandy River in Something that's called the Tug River Valley and on one side mostly the Hatfields lived on the West Virginia side in Logan County and Right across the river on the other side in Kentucky the McCoy's lived in Pike County, and that's how it was for Days gone by yeah, and they they were not new to the United States

So I guess it wasn't the United States then was it yeah, okay sure We're talking about the 1850s 60s 70s I was way off then but they came to America many many years before that Um apparently the Hatfields were some of the very first to come to the new world From Northern England and the McCoy's are obviously from Germany. Well the Hatfields were originally the Heathfields in England That sounds way more British. Yeah, but you know how you do Uh-huh you come over to America, and you you dumb it down a little. I know Heath Ledger Changed his name to Hat Ledger when he got here, didn't he?

All right P and the McCoy's come from Scotland, of course you could probably figure that out Move to Ireland before they came to the new world And the first known McCoy was John McCoy in America. When was that? 1732 from Belfast Ireland so did they move directly to the Tug River area is that where they settled no Yeah, the McCoy's first settled in Maryland And where he was a prominent landowner, and I think the Hatfields first moved to Tug Valley in 1820 and the McCoy's in 1802

Okay with their 12 kids, so they've been like really these families had grown up living and working with each other It was yeah, not just these two families in the area. There are plenty of other families, but like they were neighbors Co-workers boss and employee. They were they were husbands and wives. They intermarried, you know I mean like they were they were living together for decades. Yeah, I think the two That originally settled at Tug Fork were the actual parents of the two main Okay, protagonist right or antagonist. I guess they were both. Yeah, they were both pro and and and So they the the story our story really kind of begins round about the the Civil War this area of the Tug River Valley was

Mostly Confederate and both the Hatfield and the McCoy's were Confederate sympathizers if not outright Confederate soldiers The antagonist or protagonist the patriarch of the Hatfield family when the story begins his name was devil ants Hatfield, right? Yeah, that was his nickname his real name was William Anderson Hatfield. Yeah, but devil ants what a cool name Yeah, and I saw a couple of different explanations for where his nickname came from But my favorite one was that his mother said he was so mean the devil himself was scared of him. Yeah, I saw one that said he was six feet of Devil and a hundred and eighty pounds of hell They had stupid sayings back that yeah, that one it didn't quite that up especially in the backwards of Kentucky and West Virginia

You know, they just said stuff. They just made up names as we'll see throughout this whole episode, but devil ants himself was a He was from what I saw he was described as somebody who took life by the horns, right? Sure. He was very much a self-made man He got he became a pretty wealthy timber merchant over the years, but he was it was a violent man and he was a Well, he had some violent tendencies for sure. Yeah, and um, you know, if you want to trace back the reason for the Hatfield McCoy feud There isn't I think from everything I read there isn't like one single thing

It's often blamed on the pig deal which we'll hear about coming up That seems to be the one that historians point to the most these days though Yeah, but it's sort of a convenient way of telling the story because like what what better way to kick off a feud than like with a stolen pig, right? It definitely there were other problems or issues between these families before then, right? Yeah, but the point is there are a lot of different things going on and one of them was like you said was devil ants Made a lot more money than McCoy As a timber guy. So on the other side of the river in the Kentucky side Pike County, Kentucky There were the McCoys and at the time that devil ants was the patriarch of the Hatfield clan a

Man named Randall McCoy old Randall Was the head of the McCoy clan across the river in Kentucky, right? Yeah, I just get the sense that he had his sort of smaller business and it was always a little bit envious of The larger timber business across. Oh very much. So yeah, he was um The way that I saw him described was If devil ants is a man who took life by the horns. Oh Randall was somebody who got hooked by life's horns And he was very bitter about his lot in life. Gotcha. His father I saw was described as didn't much care for work

Didn't leave a guy didn't leave his kids anything Yeah, so his son had to be a self-made man, but he was a self-made man who never really made himself He married a woman named Sarah and Sarah's father died and left them some land and he was able to homestead on that So that's how he was able to establish himself was through his wife's inheritance of her father's land But it was enough to set him up. They were fine. They weren't prosperous But they weren't like just completely poverty-stricken like Randall had grown up, right? But just across the river and in this other family that he had to deal with and work with And and just kind of see and interact with was a man who he you know

Had made himself and definitely Randall was bitter about that idea and the comparison between himself and devil ants Yeah, and I think some of the McCoys even worked for some of the Hatfields Yeah, which is always gonna be a little tense when you feel like maybe that feeling of superiority comes over one family because you're working for me Right, you know. Yeah, so there's definitely like you're saying tension, right and you can point to Maybe these guys coming into their own as the heads of the family when the tension really started Yeah, for many years historians pointed to a specific incident as The source of the family feud But that's since been abandoned

so like we said the Civil War is about the time when this story really starts in earnest and most of the Tug River Valley was Confederate devil ants impossibly Randall McCoy were part of what were called the Logan Wildcats Which was a militia but during the Civil War They were an actual like army unit of the Confederate army. Yeah, and that's all where devil ants was even the leader In one place, but I didn't get that verified a bunch either So so it very least was in the brigade right and I got the impression that if he wasn't a leader He was a de facto leader because that was just his type of personality. That's don't answer to nobody, right? You answer to him. That's right. That was a great devil ants by the way

So I think the leader of the Logan Wildcats is another character who will come up later and his name is Jim Vance. Yeah so Jim Vance He was not a very great guy from what I can understand, but I'll let him paint his own picture, okay How's he coming in? He will in a little bit instead. We're gonna focus on a guy named Aza Harman McCoy and this guy I don't have a bead on he decided and in just complete contrast of the place where he grew up He was going to join the Yankee Union army. Yeah, and he did yeah, but he broke his leg and and left The service after I think a year. Yeah, but while he was in service his commanding officer in the Union army

Ordered him to fight devil ants because there was rumors that he was a Confederate spy Oh, yeah So Harman fights devil ants loses the fight and I didn't get a sense on what kind of fight it was whether it was like weird a Gun battle or whether he literally just like spit on his boot and like took a swing I'm not sure. I don't know that if that was even in the miniseries So they get to fight he loses and then The the union troops went after devil ants at that point, which is really what caused a lot of the early issues and then later on

Harman shot a friend of devil ants while stealing his horse So in turn he killed Harman's commanding officer in the Union army Okay, there's a lot of bad blood the guy was like literally General Bill France was peeing off his porch like I do and devil ants shot him in cold blood I hope that does not happen to you that really helps it to be a bad way to go gives you pause, you know Yeah, so the after the war after Aza Harman McCoy Came back home. It I did not realize the tensions were already that high I had the impression that was just because he fought for the Union. I didn't know he had been made to directly target devil ants

Yeah, well devil ants and the Logan Wildcats Basically sent Aza a message saying watch yourself because we're coming for you and he very wisely went off and lived in a cave for a while He hit out and so with this guy you're like, why did he go fight for the Union? Was he an abolitionist? No, he had a slave and the slave kept him alive by bringing him food and stuff while he was in the cave So I have no idea why he went and fought for the Union It's weird the fact that he did though meant that his own relatives his own McCoy's including Randall his brother Really we're just kind of like yeah, the Logan Wildcats are out to get you and you brought this on yourself So we don't really feel for you and they didn't apparently make much of a

Problem or much they didn't take issue With it when the Logan Wildcats tracked him down in the cave and killed him Well, he was actually coming home when they killed him. Oh, I think he finally thought like surely after all this time They've forgotten about this trogla bite That troglodyte. Yeah, so he was walking home to see his family. They hadn't seen in years and Jim Vance shot him That's how long he was in the cave. Well, that might have been part of the war Oh, okay, gotcha. But it said after a few years man alive, sir Well, actually man dead as a Harmon McCoy is killed by the Logan Wildcats and apparently at first everybody thought it was

Devil ants who did it but he turned out to have been bedridden at the time so he didn't alibi and they think instead that it was Jim Vance who Led it and probably killed Asia. Yeah, who is devil's uncle? Okay? And strong ally sure Jim Vance was so Aza Harman's dead the first shot has been fired in the family feud so thought the historians for years and then I guess After interviewing actual Hatfields and McCoys, they realized that no actually the McCoys were like he brought it on himself Yeah, that's that we made peace with this and no charges were even brought in the murder of Aza McCoy Yeah, I saw one article that described it as a murder agreement, which

Apparently used to have that like blood in blood out and everyone's like all right, even Steven. Okay, so done Yeah, I think the first death has occurred in the Hatfield McCoy feud, but it has nothing to do with the Hatfield McCoy feud Technically, yes, that seems like a pretty good time to take a break. Don't you agree, sir On the podcast hey, dude the 90s called David Lasher and Christine Taylor stars of the cult classic show Hey, dude bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces We're gonna use hey, dude as our jumping-off point But we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s We lived it and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and relive it

It's a podcast packed with interviews co-stars friends and non-stop references to the best decade ever Do you remember going to blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting frosted tips? Was that a cereal? No, it was hair. Do you remember AOL instant messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy blowing on it and popping it back in as we take you back to the 90s Listen to hey, dude the 90s called on the iHeart radio app ample podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Hey, I'm Lance Bass host of the new iHeart podcast frosted tips with Lance Bass The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough or you're at the end of the road

Ah, okay. I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself? What advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands? Give me in this situation if you do you've come to the right place because I'm here to help this I promise you oh god seriously I swear and you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there for you Oh, man, and so my husband Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yeah We know that Michael and a different hot sexy teen crush boy band or each week to guide you through life step by step Oh, not another one. Uh-huh kids relationships life in general can get messy You may be thinking this is the story of my life. Just stop now if so tell everybody yeah

Everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never ever have to say bye bye bye Listen to frosted tips with the Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts So Chuck we're back and Aza harm instead things are Whatever between the Hatfields and McCoy's nothing nothing big is going on even if there were any sort of skirmishes or little Fights or run-ins or that kind of thing I get the impression that the families when they saw each other there was like a Slight percentage that the sides were going to get and at least a fist fight

Yeah, not take like pot shots. Yeah, I know they're with their guns I just think they probably just didn't like each other very much from the beginning, right? So it's possible those things went on nothing big happened though until the pig The pig incident apparently it wasn't just one pig. It's what it's been boiled down to but it was several Yeah, and it was a big deal if you think about as a pig stealing a pig is not a big deal at the time There's a book called the feud by dinking dinking Dean King thinking

Said it's so weird Dean King and he said Where was their next meal going to come from and how could they feed the children in the winter? They were lucky enough to have one pig or razorback for sell or trade The proceeds were used to acquire flour sugar coffee sometimes shoes or boots for their families was a mainstay for the family so These days you hear a pig or even a couple of pigs and you think what's a big deal But in the region at the time these these pigs were very valuable. So it was a big deal, right? I saw a and in the front. I saw a dude on well

Yeah, and that was another thing again. We're talking about backwards Appalachian folk in the 19th century There was a lot to the idea that you had stolen their property Yeah, which as it should be but even that aside I saw this historian on a CBS Sunday morning clip from a few years ago and he explained like you can feed a Sizable family for a month with a single pig. Yeah, and this guy stole several pigs So the guy who was accused of stealing the pig was Who was it Chuck you Randolph McCoy accused Floyd Hatfield, okay, right? So all Randall himself said Floyd Hatfield cousin of devil ants

I know that you stole those pigs and I'm taking you to court Well, they went to court the problem is the local magistrate was a Hatfield But in this guy's favor his name was a preacher was his first name I believe and he was basically that what amounted to the local judge in the Tug River Valley he he Tried to make it a fair trial. Is he the one that placed it in McCoy land? Because the trial took place in McCoy territory. Yes, I did buy a Hatfield though Right, and he made sure that the jury had six Hatfields and six McCoys on it

He did and nobody else no joke. Yes, so weird But he was trying to make it as fair as possible, right? And so they they had a trial where Floyd Hatfield was tried for hog theft Have you ever had something stolen from you sure like you know Not hugely valuable, but yeah, it's it's one of the things that irks me most. It's very irritating There's something about like just someone Taking something that you worked to buy mm-hmm that just really boils my blood now Imagine if they took that thing that you worked to buy and they were Directly taking food out of your child's mouth at the same time. Yeah, it makes you mad

I pull a Hatfield the weird thing is is that the McCoys and the Heffolds at this point are saying we will let that We will leave it to the courts. Yeah, yeah, sure So they did go to court. They did try to have a fair trial Or at least the preacher did or preacher Hatfield preacher judge, right? It's confusing and the the jury was split except for one who was a McCoy who sided with the Hatfields His name was Selkirk McCoy another made-up name and Selkirk He voted that Because of a guy named Bill Staten who had testified that Floyd had not stolen the pigs

He said, you know what? I'm not gonna contradict Bill Staten I know him to be truthful or whatever. Sure. I work for devil ants in his logging operation Yeah, I'm gonna vote pro Hatfield and exonerate Floyd and Floyd got off and old Randall went nuts Yes, Staten was the the main witness and he was a relative of the McCoys, but he was married to a Hatfield, right? So and while they did intermarry, I saw that there was way more marrying within the family to avoid Intermarrying. Oh, yeah, there was a lot of first cousins. Yeah, that were when you watch that family feud clip You can go find it on I'm sure on YouTube But there was a mental floss article that we found that had it embedded at the bottom. Yeah, that's where I first heard about it

The that when they're introducing the families they keep introducing one another is like kissing cousins This is a kissing cousin Diane, right and other families are saying that 1979 So, yeah, there was a lot of like intermarriage within the family itself. Well, they were probably just joking, right? No, no on family feud. You don't think the guy didn't sound like he was joking Did he kiss his cousin on TV? No, but Richard Dawson kissed her. He kissed everybody That guy kissed any woman who had stand still long enough. What a flirt Love Richard Dawson. Oh, yeah, all right, P Yeah

He didn't change his name. Oh, even though he was British Well, you don't know that that's true Could have been Richard dim sum or Chumlee Dawson That's a great name. So So Old Randall has just lost this court case. Yes, and even worse He was made to pay the Hatfields court costs. Yeah, we're taking him to court And remember we characterized old Randall as a kind of a bitter man any time life handed him lemons

He just squeezed him into his eyes, right to anger, right? Yeah And he went on for this for basically years about how that this is a miscarriage of justice How Floyd had stolen his hogs and so now any time Hatfields and McCoy's Um went depending on their allegiance to the Klan. Yeah, or Klan's Anytime they saw each other. They were shooting at one another. They were getting into fights They were throwing rocks like one of um, one of devil aunt's sons Was standing there when old Randall rode up once and old Randall started railing on him about how Floyd had stolen a hog and

The McCoy's or the Hatfields son grabbed a rock and just threw it at old Randall's mouth Just crushed his mouth of the rock. Yeah, because that's what you did back then. Yeah, it was sort of like you killed my brother Harman But you stole my hog, right? You know, I'm cool with the brother killing Harman had it coming, right? But that hog never hurt anybody. Yeah, we were gonna eat it So did we cover the fact that state in two years later was killed? This is inaccurate. Oh, is that not true? Bill state and junior was killed. Oh, Bill senior was not killed in this skirmish. This is another big That retribution though. Uh-huh. Okay for his pause. Yeah, because remember money after the hog incident in the hog verdict

the the Hatfields and the Coys did not fight it out right then at the at the Magistrates office at judge preachers place, right? Yeah But anytime the Klan saw one another they would shoot at each other. They were getting fights they would take rocks to the faces and then it culminated finally in this really truly violent incident between Bill state and junior and Paris and Sam McCoy, right? Okay, so Bill state and juniors out hunting sees these McCoy sons and

Says oh, I'm in a world of trouble. Yeah, I better take a shot at one of them and shoots Paris McCoy in the hip and Sam McCoy was like you shot my brother. You're going down and he shoots Bill and wounds him and then goes over and executes him point blank in the head and this bill junior bill junior See, I got another article that said it was Bill, but it also said he's Bill Stanton. So I'm starting to doubt All kinds of accuracy. There's a lot of inaccurate stuff So I got I think the description of that incident from a really great book by a guy named John Ed Pierce It's days of darkness colon. So, you know, it's legitimate the feuds of Eastern Kentucky Yeah, so there's been like serious blood shed here now one of the this and this is direct retribution for the hog stealing verdict

A man has been executed point blank in the head and the two McCoy boys Just tried to get away with it. Yeah, so blood is spilling fast forward a bit to 1882 and three of Randall's sons are attacked stabbed 26 times and Shot Ellison Hatfield who was devil's younger brother to death, right? And that was on election day and election days were like drunken affairs Do you remember when I think in the bars episode we talked about like what was it?

Um, you get people drunken doing something the planters. Yeah Bumbo planting the flying the planters with bumping the voters with bumbo Yeah, man But it was election day. So everybody would get super drunk and when you get two clans that don't like each other super drunk in the same place They should get in fights and people get stabbed 26 times and then shot in the back yeah, so those three sons of Randall were actually arrested and were presumably going to go to trial but Vigilani ism took hold and they were kidnapped on the way to the trial by the Hatfields and they said we're gonna take care

of this our way Yeah, and they like I don't know if they let them get away with it, but they got away with it No, they did not let them get away with it. This was a huge turning point, right? When the Hatfield or the McCoy boys were intercepted by the Hatfields and taken across the River to West Virginia Which is basically like taking them to Fortress Hatfield. Yeah, country justice was gonna happen. Yeah, but Devilance vowed that if Ellison made it didn't die He would not kill these Hatfield or these McCoy boys. Yeah But Ellison succumbed to his wounds and did die and so they took these McCoy boys out and tied them to trees and

Shot them. I think more than 50 times or something like that Yeah, so you were saying like they they got away with it not for lack of trying right it basically set off This huge huge issue like this was even for the Tug River Valley Chuck. This was Pretty Flagrant frontier justice. You're not supposed to do this. There's a magistrate named preacher who's supposed to settle this kind of stuff Right, so a guy named Perry what was Perry's name? Perry Klein. You know what? This is this is too big We need to take a break. All right and get to the story of Perry Klein. Okay?

On the podcast pay dude the 90s called David Lacher and Christine Taylor stars of the cult classic show Hey, dude bring you back to the days of slip dresses and choker necklaces We're gonna use hey dude as our jumping off point But we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the 90s We lived it and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back and we live it It's a podcast packed with interviews co-stars friends and non-stop references to the best decade ever Do you remember going to blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo 64? Do you remember getting frosted tips? Was that a cereal? No, it was hair

Do you remember AOL instant messenger and the dial-up sound like poltergeist? So leave a code on your best friend's beeper because you'll want to be there when the nostalgia starts flowing Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your Game Boy blowing on it and popping it back in as we Take you back to the 90s Listen to hey, dude the 90s called on the iHeart radio app ample podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Hey, I'm Lance Bass host of the new iHeart podcast frosted tips with Lance Bass The hardest thing can be knowing who to turn to when questions arise or times get tough or you're at the end of the road Okay, I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself?

What advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation if you do you've come to the right place? Because I'm here to help this. I promise you. Oh god. Seriously, I swear And you won't have to send an SOS because I'll be there for you Oh, man, and so will my husband Michael. Um, hey, that's me. Yeah, we know that Michael and a different hot sexy teen crush Boyband or each week to guide you through life step by step not another one Kids relationships life in general can get messy. You may be thinking this is the story of my life Oh, just stop now if so tell everybody ya Everybody about my new podcast and make sure to listen so we'll never ever have to say bye bye bye

Listen to Frosted Tips with Lance Bass on the iHeart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts So we're back chucking we have a new guest his name is Perry Klein come on in Perry You're an attorney He was married to Martha McCoy and here's the deal years before there was a situation where Perry Klein was Cheated out of I think 5,000 acres of land Was he cheated? I didn't know if he if it was actual like justice because he had supposedly been cutting timber from Devalances timberland. Well, here's the deal every thing you read will say it depends on who you sympathize with

Oh, yeah, is how you think Perry Klein and really all of them were viewed sure So I read articles that said that he was cheated and articles that said he wasn't cheated And I think the family still today like while there is a piece which we'll get to They still disagree over Perry Klein's role. Okay, so but Perry Klein was married to a McCoy Actually, Aza Harman McCoy's widow, right? Yeah, Martha and so Um, he had lost 5,000 acres really yeah That's how much he was forced by the court to cede to devil ants for allegedly cutting his timberland Yeah, so he was he had a he had a retribution in mind as an attorney, right? So when the Hatfields

executed the McCoy the three McCoy boys Perry Klein used it as a chance depending on how you look at it He either used it as a chance for retribution or his family allegiance was stirred up. Yeah, and he being an attorney had contacts with the governor governor Bunker, I believe of Kentucky and said governor There's some horrible stuff going on down here. That's being perpetrated by some West Virginians against some law-abiding Kentucky and yeah, and you guys need to do something about it and it worked actually yeah, they reinstated the charges and Basically put out awards on the head bounties on the head. Yeah arrest bounties. That is of the Hatfields including

Six feet of devil and 180 pounds of hell. Yeah devil ants himself. Yeah, his sons some of the Family allies like dogs his uncle Jim Vance. Yeah, I think there were there was 20 men who had indictments against them and since they had indictments against them and they were hanging out in West Virginia They had bounties on their head and one of the bounty hunters the main bounty hunter who came around It was a it was a problem that they had bounties on their head because any crackpot Who wanted to could come and take shots at those guys and and it was happening quite a bit Yeah, they wanted to collect some dough right but there's one guy in particular who is a real thorn in their side His name was mad Frank Phillips and Frank Phillips was a bounty hunter extraordinaire

He was about as legally gray as you can get and still not be just on the darker side of the spectrum and He made it basically his personal war to get as many Hatfields Across the river into Kentucky as he could so he would carry out raids on the Hatfields stronghold in West, Virginia And basically just abduct Hatfields and bring him to Kentucky so that they could be put in the Pike County Jail Yeah, and while he did this he was also executing people left and right like Jim Vance He shot and wounded saw that he just wounded him walked around from behind and While Vance was begging for his life shot him in the head and like this is Frank Phillips MO

He would execute you just as soon as he would capture you yeah, and this was This was becoming a big deal in the press at this point. Yeah, newspaper started carrying the stories and became by all accounts like national news and Legends like it was everyone knew about the Hatfields of McCoy's by this point right and the press apparently Very much sided with the McCoy's they painted the Hatfields to seem like Backwards murderous rednecks who just caused trouble everywhere They went and painted the McCoy's is innocent law-abiding victims of of this this whole feud and

The whole legend like you're saying like this is all it all begins about right here when when there was What amounts to almost a war between Kentucky and West Virginia? Yeah, because Frank Phillips kept going and getting people and bringing them back to Pike County and West Virginia got involved and the two governors were basically standing toe-to-toe Almost about to go invade sending National Guard troops in across the border But instead they left it to the courts and actually this court case about whether it was legal or not for Frank Phillips to have abducted the Hatfields and Taking them to the Kentucky jail

Reached the Supreme Court actually Which is pretty amazing it is in the Supreme Court said you know what? It probably is illegal what happened, but Kentucky is a sovereign state and there's really nothing West Virginia can do about it So go ahead and try them, but before the trial actually and and while the these abductions were going on these raids carried out by Frank Phillips The Hatfields like I said like it was a big deal of them that there were bounty hunters out to get them And they came up with a plan to just end the whole thing. Yeah in 1888 a murderous killing spree is what they came up with in January of 1888 a group of Hatfields Said we're gonna attack Randolph McCoy and his entire family

Cap little cappy double aunt's son And an ally to Jim Vance kind of led the way and they ambushed them at their home on New Year's Day 1888 Randolph actually escaped which is they're kind of coming after him and he's the only one who escaped well They were coming after the whole family. Yeah, like their whole intention was to just murder this whole family Oh, yeah, the problem. Yeah, and Randolph was the key guy. He actually got away His son Calvin daughter Alaphare were killed In what they called crossfire, but they were you know, let's get real and his wife Sarah was Suffered a crutch skull. She was beaten so badly

Yeah, so Alaph they set the house on fire Alaphare opened the door to put the fire out and she was shot and killed and then Her mom Sarah wanted to come and like comfort her dying daughter And when she came out they beat her head in with the butt of a pistol I think cap Hatfield did and then Calvin provided cover for his dad and ran to attract their gunfire so his dad could get away and it worked but Calvin died as a result and then two other daughters have McCoy daughters survived so Randolph and two daughters survived This attack on his family and this was when it was like if the press wasn't paying attention before now they really were and

Basically everybody was outraged at this and it like this legend Chuck is a hundred something years old, right? Yeah, and it's easy to kind of see these people as caricatures or you know, just historic But when you think about What the Hatfields plan to do and tried to do to the McCoys in that case on New Year's 19 or 1888. Yeah, the New Year's massacre is what was known as that's like Objectively despicable no matter when you when you when it happened going after an entire family to kill them Yeah, to wipe out a legal entailment, you know Yeah, it's fair to say it is and it really kind of brings home like the actual humanity of all of this, you know

Yeah, so it went all the way to the Supreme Court and they decided, you know what these Hatfields should be tried And in 1889 they were tried and eight of the Hatfields and their supporters were since the life in prison and one Ellison mounts who People think it's the son of Ellison Hatfield and his first cousin. Yeah was actually sentenced to death and The one issue here was a lot of people now think he was a kind of a scapegoat because he was mentally challenged and Maybe an early false confession happened, right exactly and he actually really his was If he didn't do it or even if he did he really got screwed over by the prosecution

they they said that if he confessed and Co-operated that he would get a lighter sentence when really he was the only one who confessed and he was the only one who was hanged Yeah, so and his dying words I think were the Hatfields made me do it and they hung them. Yeah And there were no public executions at the time But that did not stop hundreds of people thousands even from coming out and watching anyway, right? so it was a public execution and with that what's odd though is The the so 10 10 men had been captured by Frank Phillips and had been a dieted and tried and nine of them got life in prison

Ellison mounts was was hung and this was apparently enough to I Guess mollify Randall McCoy at first. I think he tried to like rail against the verdict, but ultimately it was enough to just Calm him down and he went and lived a quiet life quiet haunted life as a ferry operator I think and lived to like age 88. Yeah, and about a year later It was when the families both said enough is enough. It's called a truce and From I think it was an 11-year period Almost 24 people were killed in both families. Wow like close to two dozen folks over a 11-year period

That's legit. Yeah, that's it. That's a family feud right there It's a big feud and devil ants lived to a ripe old age, too He lived to I think 83 or something like that 73. It's not that old well. He was born again at 73 I think he lived into his 80s. Oh really and but he he was Paranoid for the rest of his life because I think there was still bounties on his head So he moved to an island and carried a rifle with him at all times for the rest of his life Well, if you look at pictures of the families, they all had their guns I mean, that's what you did back then. Yeah, but it's it's funny to see a picture of like

20 people and you know 12 of them are brandishing weapons That's right, you know in the in the one photo that will ever be taken of them. They've got their gun out, too So since then they've been all over the place in pop culture. We mentioned family feud There was an Abbott and Costello movie in 1952 Buster Keaton did a movie, too. Oh, really? He was on Lune not Looney Tunes. Excuse me. Merry melodies big distinction, but still bugs bunny Nowadays there are even some medical professionals who think that there was a condition That the McCoys had that led them to be violent what it's called Von Hippel Lindau disease and these geneticists study dozens of McCoy descendants and said they have a really high rate of this disease

It's inherited. It's rare produces tumors in the eyes ears and pancreas And a notable side effect is high blood pressure racing heartbeat and increased Aggressive behavior increased fight or flight hormones and it was the McCoys that may have had that because from everything I've read it seemed like the Hatfields would have been the one to have that Wow, maybe I'm a victim of the contemporary press bias media bias You know else I got nothing else. There's other stuff There's plenty of stuff that I'm sure we didn't hit and you should go read some of the cool books written about this stuff I got one more thing actually here comes World War two life magazine used the families as a way to

Unite America's war effort by featuring them in a big photo spread the Hatfields and McCoys like working together in factories for World War two That's awesome. Yeah, and they I Think they even met recently and like they're still out there and they're still meeting and talking about this and disagreeing friendly disagreements on people like Perry Klein and Who's the other guy madman month was it mad Frank Phillips mad Frank Phillips who remember I said he was legally gray Yeah, he married a McCoy who ended up who had had a baby with John C. Hatfield They ran off together and got married. Yeah, Frank Phillips and Nancy McCoy and ended up being prosperous bootlegers in the region

Wow, well, and there was also a spurned romance too that led to tensions. I forgot about that Yeah, Rosanna Rosanna McCoy and John C. Hatfield. Yeah, they had a little Trist and a child together, but the child died I think aged eight months from measles But he kicked her to the curb before that and then went and married her cousin Nancy Although there were no curbs back then he kicked her to the riverbank To the creek side. Yeah Again, we could probably keep doing this for another 45 minutes

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