Stuff You Should Know - What we know about MI6

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

MI6 is The UK's version of the CIA. Except they came first and provided the model. But there's still a lot we don't know about this notoriously tight-lipped organization. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart podcast. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, and my latest interview is with Michelle Obama. To whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough? Me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist. So let's unpack that. Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world,

I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want you to ask yourself right now, how am I actually doing? Because it's a question that we rarely ask ourselves. All of May is actually Mental Health Awareness Month and on the psychology of your 20s, we are taking a vulnerable look at why mental health

is so hard to talk about. Prepare for our conversations to go deep. I spent the majority of my teenage years, my 20s, just feeling absolutely terrified. I had a panic attack on a conference call. Knowing that she had six months to live, I was no longer pretending that this was my best friend. So this Mental Health Awareness Month, take that extra bit of care of your wellbeing. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and there's Jerry, and this is Stuff You Should Know.

And I have to say, we didn't have the most auspicious start just now, Chuck. I stepped on you at the countdown for us to sync. That's not a good sign. Don't you think that's not a good sign? I think if you look at it another way, we were in sink, because we were both kind of trying to say the same thing. That, wow, that was a silver lining.

How's that? There's not been any better in sink since Lance Bass and Justin Timberlake were running around together. We should preface this by the way, we're doing an episode today on MI6, the United Kingdom's secret intelligence service. Is that how you pronounce it?

MI6, what do you say? Mix. That's what I've been saying in my head at least. Oh no. Yeah. That is an auspicious beginning then for sure. But, you know, this is a little, it risks being a little disjointed because if you kind of went down every rabbit hole that we speak about here, we'd be here for days.

Oh, yeah. One of the things that lets us off the hook though that I found, and I'm sure Kyle who helped us with this, we had our man in Britain, which would make him an agent and us officers. That's right. Because he was giving us intel on MI6. If you go and just start researching it, especially if you just type in MI6,

they've done a pretty good job of keeping search results pretty sanitized. Yeah. Like I would say out of the top 20 results, two are not official MI6 pages. So it's kind of hard to research them, especially considering they've only been publicly recognized as actually existing since the mid-90s. Yeah, 1990s that is. They are the oldest operating, continuously that is, operating foreign intelligence gathering organization anywhere in the world.

And like I said, if you're American, you can think of MI6 as sort of their CIA. And in fact, our own CIA was born out of, not out of MI6, but they had a lot to do with how we did things. Yeah, we used them as a kind of a model. Yeah, there you go. That's a very clean way to say that. So there's two things that MI6 does, and that really does kind of get it across. They're like Britain's equivalent of the CIA, or better yet, the CIA is America's equivalent of MI6. So they gather intelligence and they gather internationally, abroad.

There's also MI5, which you could say is roughly equivalent in the US to the FBI. They do domestic stuff, but MI6 is concerned about everything else in the world. And by gathering intelligence, they usually use two methods or they gather, yeah, two methods. One's human intelligence, which is good old fashion spying, using people who are secretly

spying on their own governments or whatever. And then the other signal intelligence, which is intercepting communications. And I saw that, um, another intelligence, um, firm, I guess in the UK, the government communications headquarters, GCHQ, they seem to do most of the signals intelligence while MI6 still does most of the human intelligence. But I think if they capture an email or something, they don't just delete it because they don't

do signals intelligence, they're still going to use it. Not my office, delete. Not my office, delete. Right. Not my job. We call them MI6. The official name, like I said at the beginning, is the Secret Intelligence Service, or the SIS. That's what they became in 1920, but we call it MI6 because that was the call sign that they adopted in World War II.

And, you know, let's be honest. People hear MI6 and they identify it with intelligence a lot because of Ian Fleming and James Bond. And LaCarr and Smiley, a couple of, you know, in James Bond's case, maybe thinly veiled literary figures. I'm not sure about Smiley. I don't know much about LaCarre. Is Smiley based on someone that you know of? I don't know. My dad was big time into John LaCarre, but I never have been. Is it LaCarre? I don't know.

I've heard it. I think it's probably both ways. I mean, unless you're his mom, I'm sure there's just one way to say if you're his mom, but, you know, he's dead. He doesn't care. How about Lee Carey? No? Perfect.

But, like you said earlier, it's kind of challenging to gather intelligence on MI6 as a podcaster because for the longest time, they would just destroy any documents they had that weren't still useful to them. They weren't like, hey, let's keep this on file

because one day somebody might ask for this and maybe want to see it, they'll be like, hey, let's keep this on file, because one day somebody might ask for this and maybe want to see it. They'll be like, no, we don't need that anymore and we're a secret organization, so let's just throw it in the old burner. And in the 1960s, they started officially keeping historical records. And then eventually in the 2000s, for their 100th anniversary, they hired a guy named Keith Jeffrey to write its history up to 1949.

Yeah, and apparently, even still today, that's where their official history ends, 1949. Anything after that, don't ask, Jack. Or else they'll take you somewhere and render you. Yeah, politely. They will. So, we should probably say that MI6 started, and I think when we did our Kim Philby episode,

I said that MI6 stood for the Ministry of Intelligence, but it actually is military intelligence, which is, I think, like you said, what it grew out of originally. But the whole thing started, there was a scare, a German spy scare in Great Britain in the turn of the last century. Germany was this imperial power that was rising. So there was reason to be scared of them.

But really the whole reason came down to this guy named William LeCue. He was a totally made up adventurer, soldier of fortune, who was just as patriotic as you could get. He made up this huge backstory for himself to give himself legitimacy. But really he was just weaving these yarns, saying essentially that Britain is sleeping right now and it's loaded with German spies.

And if we don't wake up, we're gonna get taken over by Germany. And it just hit this perfect nerve in the British public, so much so that it directly led to the formation of what would become MI6 and MI5. Yeah, all in unison, they heard this and went, well, we can't have that. So they got going. The Secret Service Bureau is who originally housed both, including MI5. And they were pretty important, you know, aka the Bureau, known as the Bureau, because

they had complete autonomy and they also had plausible deniability. So they would sort of act as a go-between if there was a government official doing some, you know, spy business. The Bureau could step in and kind of provide cover as a screen for them. Yeah, and apparently even though they are now publicly acknowledged by the government as existing, that hasn't changed very much still today.

Like, they do not, you can't, as a government official, go to MI6 and be like, I demand these records of your torture program and the Iraq War. They'll just say, we don't know what you're talking about. We're not even having this conversation. And that's what, they don't have the kind of political and legal hamstringing that the CIA has. It's much less of a bureaucracy.

And so they can do things that say like the CIA legally couldn't do. They have a lot of legal cover in Great Britain. Yeah. I wonder what their version of FOIA is, like a Freedom of Information Act request, or if they even have that, or if they're just like, I'm sorry, don't ask. Yeah, they just call it FO. Right.

Oh, boy. I wish that was a... Man, if we had written that out as a comedy duo, it couldn't have been more perfect. Thanks. I think we did really good too. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about their first chief, Sir Mansfield Cumming. It was pretty much a one person show at the beginning of the operation and Cumming was

that guy staffed fully, you know, with gentlemen, as they called them. If you were a woman at the time, you might get work as a typist or secretary. But although that would change in not too long after. And just give it like 50 years. Yeah, exactly. I guess so. But he was sort of the kind of guy you would make a movie about.

He was a race car driver. He was a pilot. He, he was a pilot, he could drive a boat with a plum. He loved spy craft, he got into it, he signed off as C for his last name. Apparently he wrote in green ink, which his successors have continued doing today, writing in that green ink. And they're all called C too.

It's the title for the chief of MI6. Yeah, exactly. And it was like M and Q, like all those things from James Bond, like most of those things are real. They use numbers and letters, and it's not just made up for fictional purposes. No, in Q, that was the scientist who would come up with all these amazing devices and gadgets and everything. And as we'll see, MI6 has gotten way more talkative publicly. They're trying to like kind of recruit more and more people. So they're giving, you know, interviews, even though their names are anonymous. And one of them said like, we have those gadgets,

but they're even better than what James Bond has. So... And they were just like, really? Yeah. So this guy coming, he had an incident in 1914 where he earned, this probably sounds like lore to me, but he had a car crash in France in 1914. Very sadly, his son was killed.

And this is how he lost his left foot. And the reason the lore was so important was because the legend was the only way he escaped was by amputating that foot himself sort of like who was the guy in real life that they made the Danny Boyle movie about that was stuck in the rock? I don't remember his name but yeah. Yeah but supposedly he you know as the story goes he cut off his own foot with a pin knife just to escape. I think just the fact that people, that became a legend around him,

says a lot about who he is. Oh, totally. If I were in a car wreck and I lost my foot, no one would create a legend that said I cut my own foot off with a pen knife to escape. Like, it just, you just wouldn't make that up. No one would believe it. This guy, at least it was believable.

Yeah, legend has it Josh wailed and cried for hours until the ambulance finally arrived and they said, you know, you could probably just have backed out of this thing on your own. Right, and they're like, it's really just gonna bruise us all. Right. So there's one other thing. There's a lot to talk about.

Like you said, the guy could definitely deserve his own movie if it hasn't been made multiple times already. But one of the other legendary things associated with him is like, he was really into spy craft, like he came up with disguises. He would like disguise himself and go walk around London and see if any of his people would recognize him. Um, and he was, I don't want to say obsessed, but he was really into the idea of invisible ink.

And he searched high and low to find a good invisible ink that couldn't be detected through standard methods. I don't know who came up with this idea, but somehow it came around that semen can be used very effectively as an invisible ink. And I saw that somebody put it, the supply is renewable. Yeah, so he must've just searched high, but not low. Right.

Yeah, renewable. There's some, I mean, it gets a little grosser. Should we even cover this in more detail? Yes. OK. Apparently, he had a colleague that reported about the man, one of our men in Copenhagen, stocked it in a bottle for his letters, and it stank so bad that they had to tell him

that a fresh operation was necessary for each letter. Wow. Yeah, we had to say that. And he said, no problem. Yeah, exactly. Wow, thank you. Yeah, exactly. So you wanna take a break or you to dive into World War I era?

Let's take a break. That's a good little table setting. So, we'll come back and talk'm the host of On Purpose. I just had a great conversation with Michelle Obama. To whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough? Me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist. So let's unpack that.

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and I think our universe is absolutely extraordinary. Hello, I'm Kelly Wienersmith. I study parasites along with nature's other creepy crawlies and there's just endless things about this universe that I find fascinating. All right. Well, basically we're both nerds. We love learning about this extraordinary universe and we love sharing what we've learned. So that's what we're going to do. And on our podcast, Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is all about the mind-blowing discoveries we've made about this crazy, beautiful cosmos. From the tiniest particles to the biggest blue whales. Each Tuesday and Thursday, we take an hour-long dive into some science topic, during which time

I try to suppress my biologist training and keep the poop jokes to a minimum. Learn all about our amazing and beautiful universe on Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe every Tuesday and Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So by the time World War I rolled around, what was it, 1911 I think? I'm sure I'm wrong and we're going to get a bunch of emails, but let's just say for sake of argument it was 1911. This is just a couple of years after the Bureau was formed and Sir Cumming was, you know, running around doing his thing. Um, but by this time he'd, yeah, writing letters

with Invisible Ink all over the place. Um, by this time though, he cultivated some, some sources already in Germany. He had one guy named, uh, B. He was C and this, this first source was B, who would report on, you know, comings and goings on the coast and the harbor and their ship sizes and how many ships were in their fleet. And although they totally dropped the ball on Germany invading neutral Belgium, which was a big deal, they still managed to give them a lot of really important intel that basically proved the

idea that Britain could really use a MI6 or something like it. Yeah. I mean, it seemed to be... The way I read this was these are just sort of the baby steps. They didn't have the authority they would have later on, and they were sussing out how valuable they might be. So they were just sort of getting established. After World War I was when they were fully established as the SIS. But they were, you know, they were monitoring Russia, trying to keep them in the war.

They were like, what are the Americans thinking right now? What's going on in the Oval Office? Because we'd like to bring them into the war. And they were doing yeoman's work, you know, providing, you know, the kind of stuff you would see in like the great escape, even though that was World War II. Like if you're a POW, you might get a map and a compass smuggled into you, stuff like that, trying to foil bombing plots and things like that. So they were like, you know, what do you think of us now? How are we doing? And apparently good enough to be official

after the war. Yeah, so by the time the inner war period comes along, the 20s, 30s, they, well there were some more legendary people. This is a time where it was just like the Wild West in Great Britain as far as spy crafts and intelligence goes. And there's this one guy who's definitely worth mentioning. He was an the Wild West and Great Britain as far as spy crafts and intelligence goes. There's this one guy who's definitely worth mentioning. He was an early agent. And we should say most people call anybody who would be working for MI6 an agent. With the CIA, you'd be correct. With MI6, you'd be wrong. An agent, as far as MI6 is concerned, is one of those sources who has turned turncoat on their country and is supplying MI6 with secrets.

Right. That's an agent. A double agent. Yeah. Or just a plain old agent. A double agent would be somebody who is actually spying for their country but posing as a spy for MI6. This is just a plain old agent.

Officers are the people who are employees of MI6 that run and handle agents in the field. Right. So that would make Cyril Bertram Mills an agent. Correct. Yes. That's what I was getting to. All right. So before World War II, this guy was a circus director, and he ended up working for MI6 for about four decades, known only to his family, you know, for doing this work.

Because as a circus director, he could get in a little bi-wing plane and he could fly all over the place under cover of doing circus business. I don't think he was like standing on the plane and eating a banana like on the wings of the planery like doing tricks Mm-hmm, but he had to get around as a circus guy and this is pretty good cover and he had some pretty dangerous Missions with these flights as well, right? Yeah

There's a couple where he was giving like MI6 like really valuable intelligence from flying over like aircraft factories in Germany Apparently there was a one particular piece of information or I guess a bunch of information that really formed a good picture of the size of Germany's Luftwaffe, their air force. And Winston Churchill apparently used that to decide whether he was on the side of appeasing

Hitler or fighting Hitler. And I guess because of the buildup of this Air Force, he was like, we can't let this guy keep continuing. So he was against appeasement, thanks largely to Bertram Mills' intel that he was directly giving him. Yeah. And this was, you know, this is dangerous work.

He wasn't just flying around. I think in 1936, which was the year he started, the Nazi courts executed by decapitation, usually with an axe, six spies that were caught. So he had a lot on the line as a circus director, but he was doing it for, I guess, love of country. Yeah, and a circus director is understating it. He was known as king of the Modern Circus. Like he was a really big deal outside of his spying activities. It would have astounded anybody who had ever heard of him that he was a spy. Yeah, I think circus director fit better on a card than King of the Modern Circus. Right.

And he was an understated guy, you know, he wasn't playing boy. No, there you go. Yeah, it would have been one of those things where it starts out normal, but as it gets closer to the edge of the card, they start cramping letters together. Like a poster made for elementary school? Right, for the science fair. Exactly.

What happens with vinegar and baking soda? Yeah, I still do that sometimes when I have to. I'm not great at spacing like that. It has to do with your brain, I think, spatial awareness and stuff. Yeah, I'm not great at spacing like that. It has to do with your brain, I think, spatial awareness and stuff. Yeah, I'm not that good at it either, don't worry. All right, good. So for a long time, not a lot happened,

and then World War II broke out. And World War II, by this time, remember, MI6 had proved its mettle and worth in World War I. You had a whole decade or two where it just kept proving its worth. And so by the time the war broke out, you would think that they would be totally ready for this. But I don't know if it caught them off guard, or they were just allowed to kind of be pruned in peacetime. I don't know. But it took them a minute to get their footing and regenerate

time, I don't know, but it took them a minute to get their footing and regenerate intelligent, like human intelligence networks in Europe. But they apparently got their footing fairly quickly and were very successful in basically generating a lot of intelligence coming out of different countries, including occupied countries in Europe during World War II. Yeah, it seems like that was the slower part. Where we know they did a lot better was at Bletchley Park with their signals intelligence. We talked about the code breaking and Alan Turing

and the, what was it? Enigma machine? Yes. That's right, some great episodes from our distant past. But they were kind of crushing it over there. They did finally, during this period, start to have some women working there that were not just secretaries. There was one overseen by a woman named Kathleen Pettigrew, communications at least, between home and field agents.

She was very proud of her work and said, I was basically Miss Moneypenny but with more power. Yeah, she was the chief at the time secretary, and he imbued her with enough power to run a program. So a lot of people say she was probably the inspiration for Ian Fleming's Miss Moneypenny, who James Bond used to like to flirt with. I think a lot of people from this age were like,

I'm basically him, or I'm Q, or I'm Miss Moneypenny. Right, my dad used to go around telling people he was Q. Are you serious? No. Oh. I would have been so embarrassed. Well, see, that was a tough one. I'm giving myself a break there

because I believe in almost anything you tell me about your dad. Yeah, it's true. The herbal Elvis. Yeah. Yeah, and speaking of Q, it turns out that, so they did kind of develop devices, like you said, figuring out ways to hide compasses and maps to get to POWs in World War I. But the idea of their research and development and technology branch that produced someone like Q that we all who know the

James Bond movies are familiar with, that actually came from them absorbing a rival agency that was developed in World War II, that MI6 did not like one bit at first, the Special Operations Executive, or the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. Yeah, it seemed like, and I may just be like, teenage boying this thing, but it seemed like they got under MI6's skin because they got to do more fun stuff.

Yeah, for sure. Like kind of more dangerous ops went to them. And MI6 were like, you know, we've been around a while and these are, I think they thought of them the way Kyle put it, as dangerous amateurs. But then they started saying, but you got to take us along at least. Well, yeah, I mean, they definitely did have their fun stuff curtailed because MI6 had a department called D-section and D stood for destruction.

Like they were supposedly perfectly capable of doing sabotage. I don't know enough about World War II British military history to understand why they felt a special operations executive was needed, or if somebody just managed to have enough power that they developed their own thing and it just became the SOE. I don't know. But eventually MI6 prevailed, especially after World War II, and they absorbed the special operations executive, including a lot of their really interesting, useful stuff, like their research and development group

that produced people like Q. Yeah, I got the feeling, and maybe we'll get a real, you know, British history buff that can let us know, but it sounded to me like a Churchill directive, kind of like, I know we've got our section D in MI6, but we need a really super secret special Sabbath to our team, and like, let's create one.

Right, everybody was waiting for that last part. Yeah, that's kind of what it sounded like. But back to Q, that was based again on a real person, and I think we said, but Q stands for quarter master. And this guy was Charles Frazier Smith. And he was the one that made like literal miniature cameras inside cigarette lighters and steel shoelaces to choke someone out with.

Yeah, go out. A cigarette holder telescope. Kyle said that these weren't as, were a little more humdrum, but I think a bullet shaped device to stick up your butt that holds vital information, maybe humdrum, but it's pretty useful. I'll bet it doesn't feel humdrum going in.

Yeah, it depends on what kind of bullet too. For sure. Yeah, so I mean, there's a lot of what we understand about MI6 and like the movies and all that. It does apparently bear some resemblance because I don't know if we said or not, Ian Fleming worked for MI6 during World War II. So he had firsthand knowledge about all this stuff, which is why there are real life people who these characters were based on. So our understanding of what MI6 does and has at its disposal and the way it runs is not that far off.

But one of the big differences I saw was the idea of a lone, loose cannon running his own operations out there is totally incorrect. It's just backwards. I've seen current employees say like that guy wouldn't even make it through the door. Like he would get voted out so quickly that he wouldn't even have a chance. Um, you need somebody who's not a loose cannon.

Yeah. You, um, rather than solo missions, apparently it's all teamwork and it's not one person coming up with one giant piece of information. Like there's a super villain who's created a who's created a layer at the bottom of the sea that he's been shooting nuclear missiles from. That usually doesn't come up in one big package. It takes thousands of people to work together to piece little pieces of information

and then go back and double check and triple check with other sources whether those pieces of information are correct. And then eventually you create a whole picture and double check and triple check with other sources whether those pieces of information are correct. And then eventually you create a whole picture and you hope that it's true and accurate. Yeah, and you hope there's a secret layer Right. with like train sharks in a moat.

That you can get a membership to. Yeah, exactly. So speeding along up to the Cold War, we are now at a place where, like the USA, the Cold War was dominated in MI6 by the Soviets and communism, the spread of communism. Agents, double agents, secret agents, triple agents, they were doing the same work we were. They partnered up with the CIA in 1948, again, which was modeled on MI6. And they were trying to sort of, at this point, balance intelligence with covert actions because it wasn't like an act of war, so they had to approach it differently.

And they said that at the time, there were a couple of different types of, I guess, what, officers working there. Yeah. Almost an agent. But Moscow men who were apparently very careful and, you know, gathering that intelligence. And then camel drivers who were people they would send in to, like, on the ground in the field at a local place to ally themselves with locals to maybe mount an insurrection or something like that. Yeah, and I'm guessing the camel drivers came from the special operations executive heritage

because that's exactly the kind of guerrilla warfare the SOE engaged in in World War II. So I'm guessing that's how that survived into the Cold War. Yeah, and of course, because it's the Cold War, a and of course because it's the Cold War a lot of the intelligence that these Moscow men were gathering was like hey we're not at war but in case something happens we know that they've got these airfields they've got this many tanks this many soldiers on the ground that could move here in this amount of time so you know it was sort of a readiness operation at that point. Yeah and not just like okay we they have a huge stockpile of these weapons. The opposite could be just as valuable too.

Like actually, they don't have that many missiles. So all this bluster about them blowing the UK into the ocean is actually full of hot air. So we don't need to be quite as scared about it. Yeah, good point. Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's really important too. But like you said, also, I mean, they got caught maybe a little off guard with World War II.

I get the impression that they didn't let that happen during the Cold War. They were still keeping up with the Soviets, like capabilities. I think what else made it easy too, was you had one nation really to spy on. The Soviet Union as a whole, it was massive and it, and it was made up of what are now a bunch of independent nations, but at the time, you had one big enemy rather than today where you have

terrorism, non-state bad actors. It's just much more dilute, whereas before it was like, those guys, those are our enemy, that's who we need to spy on. Yeah, train all ears toward Moscow, basically. Yeah. So they were also still recruiting intelligence officers to use on their side. And this is, did I read this right? The KGB, their acronym MICE, stood for Money Ideology Coercion and Ego.

Were they identifying people within their own ranks that might be, you know, susceptible to being turned? I'm sure you could apply to that, but the impression I had is that was just how they decided if somebody was worth approaching to recruit as a spy for them. Oh, okay. But it could cut both ways, I guess. It would apply, yeah, for sure. So if you're recruiting people, that's one way to do it.

You can flatter them, make them just be like this person clearly wants to feel like they're important or helping their country or something like that. Um, you can have, um, stuff that to blackmail them with. Apparently MI6 is more than willing to blackmail agents into working for them. Bribery is another one too. It's how a lot of very famous and prolific spies have been brought on to being a spy is just getting paid. Although in the end, when they're being executed,

you're like, you did all this for $300,000 really? Yeah. It just never quite adds up. Also, it's like $300,000 over like 12 years or something like that. It's just I never quite get it. So maybe there's like, they're really in it for the thrill. The money was just the extra bonus.

I don't know. Yeah. They'd be like, why don't you just try scratch off tickets? Right. If you want to make 40 grand a year for the next 15 years. Right. And then another gambit is called the dangle. It's not dirty.

It's just, just it's just this way of getting somebody to spy for you. Oh, okay. Or actually it's a way of creating a double agent, like you were talking about. So that's when you recruit somebody, but for the purposes of exposing them, right? So a dangle is where you say,

like you have somebody in Moscow that you've turned into an agent for you, you try to make them attractive to say the KGB to recruit them as a spy. So now you have a double agent working inside. Okay, and is that who, is that how they got Oleg Pinkovsky? I don't know if he came to them.

No, he came to them. He became disillusioned with the Soviet Union and he's like, I think I'm gonna start helping the UK. Oh, okay, because he worked with both MI6 and CIA. And again, this is during the Cold War. So he was one of the key players in sort of getting, or I guess getting and giving information on Soviet missiles in Cuba during the Cuban

Missile Crisis. Yeah, which is pretty useful as a matter of fact. Yeah, he was hugely helpful just over like 18 months and then he was caught and executed. But I think at that time he gave up 5000 photos of Soviet documents to MI6. Yeah, and you know you mentioned the CIA earlier having sort of more legal hands being tied than they do apparently in the Cold War and who knows maybe this all happens today, but if there was a CIA officer that couldn't get something done on the down-low that was maybe untoward or violent or something done on the down low that was maybe untoward or violent or illegal, they could call MI6 and say, hey, we can't get this done.

Could you? Right. And they say yes. Yes. Wait, can you say it? I can't do a very good British accent. Yes. That was Murray from New Zealand again.

Almost always is. Oh well. So I say we take a break and we come back and talk about one of the most thrilling moments in MI6 history. ["The Time Is Now"] Hey, my name is Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose. I just had a great conversation with Michelle Obama. To whom much is given, much is expected.

The guilt comes from am I doing enough? Me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist. So let's unpack that. Former First Lady Michelle Obama and someone who knows her best, her big brother Craig, will be hosting a podcast called IMO. What have been your personal journeys with therapy? We need to be coached throughout our lives. My mom wanted us to be independent children and she would always tell me, stop worrying

about your sister. Having been the First lady of the entire country and representing the country and the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. What would you say has been the most hardest recent test of fear? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glod. And this is season two of the World of Drugs podcast. Sir, we are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives.

This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote unquote drug ban. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. We got B-Real from Cypress Hill.

NHL enforcer Riley Cote. Marine Corvette. MMA fighter Liz Karamouche. What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does.

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Hey everyone, we want to tell you about our podcast. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and I think our universe is absolutely extraordinary. Hello, I'm Kelly Wienersmith. I study parasites along with nature's other creepy crawlies and there's just endless things about this universe that I find fascinating. All right, well basically we're both nerds.

We love learning about this extraordinary universe and we love sharing what we've learned. So that's what we're gonna do. And on our podcast, Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is all about the mind-blowing discoveries we've made about this crazy, beautiful cosmos. From the tiniest particles to the biggest blue whales.

Each Tuesday and Thursday, we take an hour-long dive into some science topic, during which time I try to suppress my biologist training and keep the poop jokes to a minimum. Learn all about our amazing and beautiful universe on Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe every Tuesday and Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you talking about Oleg Gordeevsky? Yes. That's exactly who I'm talking about Oleg Gordievsky? Yes, that's exactly who I'm talking about, a KGB Colonel. That's right.

Apparently this guy, and this is how you can get someone on your side from the, or at least at the time from that side, is that they really like Western culture. Yeah, the Cowabunga lifestyle. Yeah, they're like a really like, I don't know, American sports and music and fashion, then that could be enough. And apparently he was on assignment in Copenhagen and they were like, this guy loves Western culture

and he might be worth getting in touch with. And sure enough, it actually worked. I don't know where they'd fall in the MICE acronym, money ideology, coercion, ego, taste. Maybe ideology and ego, I don't know. I'm not sure, but yes, he definitely turned, but he was caught, he was found out. So he became the station chief,

or working out of the embassy as a KGB agent in London. So he was able to actually kind of easily pass secrets to the Brits because he was there already. He was found out by Aldrich Ames, who was a famous American trader who spied for the Soviets in I I think the eighties or maybe even into the nineties. Um, and he told them about a Gordievsky spying for the Brits. Um, Gordievsky was not immediately jailed, which is weird. He was definitely taken back to Moscow and held

like basically under surveillance, but he was going to be jailed. He was going to be executed. Yeah. So he started what had been planned seven years before and named Operation Pimlico. And by standing in a Moscow bakery or outside of a Moscow bakery,

holding a plastic Safeway bag, he was signaling MI6 like, get me out of here right now. Yeah. And he said, how am I going to know if you've gotten the message? And they says, well, how about this? A man's going to walk by you carrying a Harrods bag. And then he said, that could be anybody. Right. And he said, all right, how about this?

Carrying a Harrods bag and eating a Mars candy bar. Right. And he said, I guess that narrows it down enough. Yeah. Which is really showing off, because I think you could trade a Mars bar for a car in Moscow in 1985. Yeah, well, yeah, that's a good point, actually. At least that's what they told us in school.

Yeah, exactly. They don't have toilet paper either. Right. So he evaded surveillance, was making a run for the Finnish border, and MI6 grabbed him and put him in a car trunk, but they have like, you know, sniffing dogs, inspecting cars and things. So they had the brilliant idea to change a poopy diaper

on the trunk of the car that he was stuffed inside. And apparently it worked. Yeah, those dogs were like, oh God, and just went back to their post. No, thank you. Yeah, isn't that amazing? So then they, they got them across the Finnish border. Finland is neutral and he was safe.

But I mean, like that is real deal spy stuff, you know? Oh yeah, for sure. Like holding a Safeway bag. That's awesome. The Mars bar. I love every part of that. So he actually, he was actually tried in absentia and sentenced to death by the Soviet Union, but he had defected to the UK and they protected him.

And he died an old man, I think age 86, last March at his home in Great Britain. Incredible. Yeah. They never got a hold of him. No, but one thing that we really should say, and I was kind of touching on it earlier, one of the really valuable things he provided was he could understand the state of mind

of the Soviet government and Soviet military. And he fed this information to the UK, to MI6, who turned around and said, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, you guys need to tone down this evil empire rhetoric because you are scaring the Soviets so bad. They're plotting a first strike because they think you're going to strike out of nowhere. So you actually might trigger a first strike from the Soviets if you keep talking like this.

And as a result, they really dialed it back quite a bit. Yeah. He said, have you seen War Games? He's like, that could happen. In that sense, he kind of saved a bit. Yeah, he said, have you seen more games? Yeah. He's like, that could happen. In that sense, he kind of saved the world. Yeah. I think that's great. Yeah, I think saving the world is totally great. I'm all for it.

If we're talking about modern times, and you mentioned the 90s is when things sort of went official and that was 1994. They officially went public due to the 1994 Intelligence Services Act and basically this had happened to MI5 in 1989 and it kind of seemed like they had to kind of bring in some bureaucracy for legal reasons among others. The staff of MI5 and I guess later MI6 wanted better legal basis for things like tapping phones. They had to be a little

little more on the up-and-up. I think that it was the European Court of Human Rights said that if you're an intelligence service you have to have legal footing in a complaint system. So like you have to become official for all this stuff to be official. Right. There's so that law that essentially acknowledged that there was such a thing as MI6 back in 1994. It had a section called Section 7. And it basically said, if one of our agents is off running around committing crimes in another country that they could be

Tried for back in the UK. They cannot be held liable for that. They'll never be tried for this Yeah, and some people have taken that as admission that there's such a thing as a license to kill and that makes sense I mean there apparently there is a new law that's being talked about right now and is making its way through the Supreme Court there that basically says, yes, and pretty much murder too. We're not gonna try them for murder. And it actually extends to agents too. So if somebody murders somebody for MI6 and then they defect to the UK,

the UK's never gonna try them for that murder. So people are like, that's a license to kill. And I saw an agent say on, I think a PBS or BBC documentary, a license to kill doesn't make any sense. Like if you're in another country and you kill somebody there, like when the cops come, you're not going to show them your license to kill and they'll let you go like this is not, you're breaking that country's law. You've murdered someone in that country.

You're toast if you get caught. Yeah. So there is no license to kill, but symbolic. Like this is not you're breaking that country's law. You've murdered someone in that country. You're toast if you get caught. Yeah So there is no license to kill but symbolic these laws essentially Kind of potentially give it something like a license to kill. Yeah, but you just don't whip out your double-o card No, no the other things that happened in 1994 as far as the organization goes is they were, the chief was, I was about to say exposed technically, that's right, but they voluntarily said, all right, we have to be official now, here's who our chief is. They moved offices to some fancy headquarters on the Thames, designed by Terry Farrell.

It's a very secure sort of secretive building. And, you know, it's, while they did go public, you know, technically, it's still MI6. And they still have a culture of secrecy because of what they do. It's not like, you know, they just sort of made things, some things a little more public to make things official, I guess.

Right. That building too, it is secure, but it was blown up not once, but twice. Well, not blown up. The first time it was attacked by the IRA, they shot an anti-tank rocket launcher at the building on September 20th, 2000, and that building just shook it off immediately. It did almost no damage to it whatsoever and really kind of showed just how crazy reinforced

that building is. But it suffered a much different fate in James Bond's Skyfall, where it blew up. Oh, was that with that building? Mm-hmm. Skyfall was good. Yeah, it was, as a matter of fact. I quite liked it. I'm curious what's going to happen next with that franchise. Yeah, it was, as a matter of fact. Quite liked it. I'm curious what's gonna happen next with that franchise.

Yeah, they haven't named any James Bond yet? I don't think so, and they sold, you know, the Broccoli family, I think, sold everything. Oh, really? Oh, God, it may have been Amazon even, I don't know. Wow. Not sure. Wow.

But we'll see. Well, if it's not Idris Elba, I'm gonna be really surprised. Yeah, they've been talking about him for years. That would be too good to be true. No one's smart enough to do that in movie making. Yeah. I don't have great faith. We should talk a little bit about the more modern day stuff

because starting in the early 2000s, leading up to the Iraq War in 2003, obviously they were gonna be working with hunting down terrorists and maybe weapons of mass destruction. And that was one of their big black eyes actually was bogus information that got through. Apparently, it wasn't vetted like it should have been. And that was one of the reasons that the US

and the rest of the world got and believed bad information about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Yeah. It's said that that is the lowest moment in MI6 history since Kim Philby was discovered as a traitor and longtime spy, which is really saying something if you've heard our episode on Kim Philby. But I would say that this was even much, much worse because of how many people died in the Iraq War.

Yeah. And the reason why it was such a big deal, this bad intelligence, is because the U.S. and the U.K. essentially made a pact, like we're gonna invade Iraq together, to topple this regime. We just wanna get rid of Saddam Hussein. That's not legal.

If Saddam had weapons. That's not legal. If Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, now it's legal under basically international law. So they really went to a lot of trouble to try to find anything that suggested that. And in the end, they just relied on these sources that just were totally untrustworthy. And I don't remember where we talked about it,

but one of the sources that the US and the UK relied on to invade Iraq with said they have weapons of mass destruction. They keep them in these glass canisters and in these like little glass balls and the glass balls are green and Nicholas Cage protects them with Sean Connery. Yeah. I mean, learned people really genuinely suspect that that could have been misinformation based on the rock. Yeah.

And that the handful of British ministers and politicians who saw this intel had not seen the rock apparently, and it just didn't ring any bells if they had seen it. Well, they had better taste in that. I guess so. It wasn't that good, but you know. It was okay. If you want just like a, you know, shoot them up, bang kind of thing, action movie, I guess. Yeah.

It's all right. Yeah. So today, MI6, they're realizing openly in interviews and stuff that they really need to start keeping up with technology because of like facial recognition and surveillance states like that China has and the UK, it's basically impossible to create an agent somewhere. Like human intelligence is really hard to do now.

Especially in China. Yes, and apparently they're starting to use AI to run scenarios and situations to predict how somebody will behave in different situations. That's a new one they're starting to do too. So I don't know how ahead of the curve they are. And it sounds to me a little bit like they're behind the curve, but at least they're realizing

they need to, they need to wake up and smell the hard drives. Sorry. Thought you were going to say English breakfast, Steve. Oh, that's even better. So we just edit that in, but you say it? Beijing Mr. Herman. So the other obvious thing as far as modern day recruitment goes, it's not like the old days where they would just sort of source someone out

and very quietly have someone walk by and drop a note on their dinner table that says, are you interested in a job? You know, come by this office tomorrow alone, that kind of thing. It's a modern organization now with, you know, job listings and things like that. Again, still very secretive in a lot of ways, I'm sure, in what they do, but they, you know, starting in 1994 is when they really were brought into the sort of modern era. It's a little less James Bondy and just a little more, you know, fill out this application and we'll do our background checks. Right.

It is still risky though, is I can't remember what year it was. In the 2010s, I believe, there was a code breaker for MI6 named Gareth Williams who was found dead in his bathroom inside a tote bag that was locked from the outside. Yeah that's hard to do on your own but that it wouldn't that be excuses like he did this himself? Either that or that it was like a sex game gone wrong and the partner like took off freaked out and took off. I think that's the official explanation but there was a former KGB agent who came forward in 2015 and said no. That guy would, the Russians tried to recruit him

and he said no and so they killed him. Hmm. I wonder if it was a sex game gone wrong and they just were extracting Invisible Link. Oh my god. I think that's a pretty good way to wrap up this episode, if not have wrapped it up 30 seconds before you said that. Agreed. Uh, well, since we both agree that this episode is wrapped up, then that means it's time for Listener Mail. -♪ DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING We heard from a lot of people that really enjoyed that one. And these two are from Maria and Kirk. Hey guys, love the disaster movie, but I'm surprised you didn't mention the movie Testament.

I haven't not heard of this, Maria, but I'm gonna check it out. It's from 1983 by Lynn Litman starring Jane Alexander. One of the few with a female lead, closest thing to a hero in this post-apocalyptic movie. And one of the few directed by a woman. You were focusing more escapist action disaster type things but you did mention a few that were a little off the radar so I thought I would mention this one and another one that you could have mentioned that was a little off the radar was Melancholia, a pre-apocalyptic film. So we have we not mentioned that? I

swear to God we did. I don't think we did in that episode But we did talk about it recently because we talked about it a few times for some reason I think that qualifies and then also from Kirk. Hey from beautiful Astoria, Oregon Longtime listener and I love disaster films and you guys did a great job I'm surprised though that you didn't mention Jurassic Park because I believe that fits all the criteria And predates twister by three years and it also fits that your conversation on the early use of CGI was some of the greatest Special effects of the time. I have a feeling I won't be the only person mentioning this Love the podcast guys and that is from Kirk Clinger

Now we had a few people write in about Jurassic Park, I don't know about disaster movie to me that's maybe a sub-genre of monster movie I don't know what do you think? It did have a Hoffman in the form of Wayne Knight who played Newman. True. He was even wearing a Hawaiian shirt like he couldn't get more obviously Hoffman. Yeah that's a good point. I he couldn't get more obviously Hoffman. Yeah, that's a good point. So I just, I don't, I don't think it is a disaster movie though, but that's just my opinion.

Yeah. And we're not the, I mean, what do we know? If you think it's a disaster movie, then go with it. I did see some people agreed with me though, that Godzilla minus one is definitely a disaster film. So I was right. Well, the scale of destruction in Jurassic Park 1 was limited to Isla Nubar so I don't know though other things were localized too so maybe I'm just wrong about everything in life. Yeah like that tunnel

collapse with Stallone that was local. Yeah that's true that's true. Yeah well Kurt thank you for starting this conversation it's a great one. Like I said we love that kind of thing. Send us an email. Send it off to stuffpodcasts at iHeartRadio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, my heart radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and my latest interview is with Michelle Obama.

To whom much is given, much is expected. The guilt comes from am I doing enough? Me, Michelle Obama, to say that to a therapist. So let's unpack that. Having been the first lady of the entire country and representing the country in the world, I couldn't afford to have that kind of disdain. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

I want you to ask yourself right now, how am I actually doing? Because it's a question that we rarely ask ourselves. All of May is actually Mental Health Awareness Month and on the psychology of your 20s, we are taking a vulnerable look at why mental health is so hard to talk about. Prepare for our conversations to go deep. I spent the majority of my teenage years, my 20s, just feeling absolutely terrified. I had a panic attack on a conference call. Knowing that she had six months to live, I was no longer pretending that this was my best friend. So this mental health awareness month take that extra bit of care of your well-being.

Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020 a group of young women found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos. It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts. This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart Podcasts, Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope about the rise of deep fake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast.

Find it on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.