Subpar - The legendary Lee Trevino on how the Tour can improve and his greatest gambling moments

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

On this week's episode of GOLF's Subpar, Lee Trevino joins Colt Knost and Drew Stoltz for an exclusive interview. The 6-time Major Champion talks how the game of golf can improve today, if Tiger Woods or Jack Nicklaus is the G.O.A.T. and his favorite on-course gambling moments. ----- Subscribe to our new YouTube Now: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt5ESUx6omMUsMoEKvMTzlA Shop The Birdie Juice Collection: https://fairwayjockey.com/collections/birdie-juice Follow Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/golf_subpar/?hl=en Follow Twitter: https://twitter.com/golf_subpar?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor ----- This week's episode of Subpar is brought to you by Cincoro Tequila. The Blanco, Reposado and Añejo can be enjoyed in cocktails, straight up or on the rocks, it’s the perfect golf course companion. So if you haven’t already, go to Cincoro.com or your local store to buy a bottle and try the delicious liquid. ----- As we always say, Rokform is the #1 speaker in the game today.   Visit http://rokform.com and use promo code SUBPAR at checkout for 25% off your entire order.

Hello world, welcome back to golf subpar. Colt Nosed and my man Drew Stoltz. A little bit under the weather right now, but he's going to battle through it because we got a lot to get to. Unless you've been living under a rock, you know, a lot's been going on in the golf world. But before we get to that, just want to remind you to go check out our YouTube page, like, subscribe, all of that. You can see our incredible caddy video there where we were basically the best caddies on the planet, show Joe Griner, Joe Scoverin, how they could improve at their job. And look what happens, Sleeze. Joe Scoverin, now on the bag for Ludwig O'Barre ever since the video came out.

It didn't take long, did it, buddy. I got to say, I can't speak for you, but I got to expect the same. I assume your phone's been blowing up by guys all across the world after seeing that video, wanting to get a little piece of the action. Can't blame them, can't blame them. But we love what we do. I said it's going to take a serious digit. But how about that for Joey Scove?

I mean, is there a better bag in the world starting right now for the next, I don't know, 15, 20 years than Ludwig O'Ber? So I've been hearing rumblings about this for a little bit. That was a possibility. Talk to Joe a little bit about it and was like, dude, this guy, in my opinion, can be number one in the world very quickly. Like, he's got all the tools. Tom Kim is fantastic. He is a great player.

He's won three times on the PGA tour. Very solid. But in my opinion, Ludwig is on another planet. Like, he's got all the juice. I expect him to win a major championship this year. he's the real deal, man. It's hard. You can't turn that job down.

No, it's a generational back, dude. We're talking a Rory when he came out, you know, a John Rom, who I'm sure we'll get to in a minute when he came out. Like, there's not many of these guys, like a Ludwig O'Bair. What he's done in his short amount of time since he turned pro, it's ridiculous. And like, I'm being dead serious when I say starting right now, start from a clean slate, the next 15, 20 years, what's a better bag to have? I don't think there is one.

Wow, that's a bold statement. but it's hard to disagree. I mean, he drives the shit out of it. His iron game continues to get better. His short game is fantastic, and he puts well. Oh, and by the way, he's a rather good-looking dude, too. So he's pretty marketable. So, Joe, maybe you can, you know, take some of the scraps, if you know what I'm saying.

Yeah, there's a few left over. I mean, other than that, the job is shit. But, you know, those things you mentioned pretty damn good. I'm dead serious. Like, you know, we heard rumbling about this for a while, and I was like, I mean, I'm being dead on us when I say, I don't, starting right now. And there'll be young guys that come out that'll be awesome, too. but this is a this is one you can't say no to.

Yeah, well, speaking of things you can't say no to, John Rom, I heard about it. Signs with Liv Gough, you know, it still as well as we know him, as great as he's been to us on this show, our serious XM show, Gravy and the Sleas, like we talk to him all the time. We see them out at Whisk Brock and Silverleaf. It still was a little bit of a shocker.

I mean, you heard the rumors that it was possibly coming, but when it finally became official and John Romm announced it, it was a little bit of a shock. But when you get offered somewhere between 300 and, $600 million and you're going to own your team. I just don't see how you can say no to that, especially with everything that's going on with the PGA tour right now. Exactly.

And Colt, like, I'm sure, you know, when this was announced like me, you got a bunch of messages saying, like, can you believe it? Your boy's going to live. You know, oh my God, I can't believe it. Can you believe your boy? I'm like, my response was, yeah, dude. Yeah, I can't believe it. That is a shitload of money.

And I know he's got a ton already, but who am I or who is anyone else to tell someone else how much money they should earn or where they should do their job. I mean, he made a decision that he felt was best. I'm happy for him. I'm very happy for him. Send him with congratulations texts, just like I did to Joe Schafferton when he made it official with Ludwig. And I'm happy for all my friends that make a bunch of money at their job.

But I've seen some, like, hate online cult, which of course is going to come, but people are like mad or feel betrayed that he left. And I think that anger is so misdirected because I think the anger shouldn't be on the individual making the decision that they think is best with them. You're going to be angry at anyone. I think it should be directed at the powers that be in the professional world of golf that let it get to this point. Like, I'm not going to hold an individual to a higher standard than I hold the people

controlling the entire professional game of golf right now when they've made the exact same decision that John just made. They're at the table asking for the money from the exact same people that John just took it from. So I'm happy for John. It's a huge blow to the PJ tour, a huge coup for Liv Golf. but I think until they come to an agreement, quote, like this type of stuff,

he ain't going to be the last one, man. No, he's not, obviously, and that's going to be one of the questions is, who's next? And Tony Fienow's been one of those guys that we've been hearing about, well, right before we stepped into here, he came out and said he's not going.

He's looking forward to Maui. He's looking forward to his whatever year it is on the PGA tour, and at the bottom, hashtag, I'm not leaving. So I don't know if that's a negotiation deal or a tactic or what's going on because everything I've heard is, Tony is going. But now he came out and listen,

The man himself said it. So I'm going to believe Tony Fienow and that makes me happy that he's not going. But like you said, $300 to $600 million. You can't say no to that. And people bring up what he said 17, 18 months ago where he said, I want to leave my mark on professional golf. I'm all about history and legacy. $400 million won't change the way I live my life.

Well, at that time, I believe $400 million probably wasn't on the table. It wasn't actually there. But now it is. That is on there. Here's a piece of paper. this is what you make if you come to live golf. And it's like, oh my God, that's a ridiculous amount of money. And as JJ Watts said, if the numbers were true,

he would drive over to John's house and physically make him sign it. Because that kind of money just doesn't come around. By the way, in my opinion, we heard just what Shohei Otani got. He got 700 million from the Los Angeles Dodgers. But I just don't get that number, in my opinion, with where golf is. Golf's not the NFL. Golf's not Major League Baseball. With where golf is, that number just shock.

me. Yeah, and it's just, I mean, it's not a real market, I guess, value there, but you're dealing with an entity that wants a seat at the table. They got more money than God. They have like legitimately endless amounts of money. If they want something, they're going to get it. And I think that's why the PJ tour this whole time is probably underestimated. It's like money ends up winning out, Colt, eventually, in almost everything. But if I'm a glass half full guy, which I like to think that I am, I think that Rom and potentially the names that are going to come down the road as we expect more to follow. It could be the tipping point, dude. It's like, okay, look, golf isn't big enough from a viewer standpoint on a global perspective to chop it in half and say, here's half of

the greatest players they're over here, here's half the other greatest players there over here, and they only come together four times the year. It's just not that big, like, relatively speaking. And that sucks. And it sucks for, that's the one thing too that's getting left out. It's like, the only people losing in this deal are us, the fans, the guys that support the game of golf that want to watch the best players in the world, week in, week out. We're the only ones losing, because whether you go to live and take that pile of money, you win. If you stay on the PGA tour, they've been juicing their purses and doing everything they can to shovel money to guys. They're winning too.

Who's losing? Like, basically just the fans. And they're going to mess around and lose interest from a lot of the casual fans because they're just like, dude, dude, dude, I can't keep up with all this. But with the ROM announcement and the potential future ones coming, I think this may be the tipping point where they just got to come to the table and be like, look, dude, enough's enough. How do we figure this out? How do we coexist? this. And if that does happen, John will look like the smartest guy in the world because he's

going to get to have his cake and eat it too. I mean, they've got the PGA tour backed into a corner right now because they can just keep picking off guys. And I mean, it's ridiculous to offer guys $100, $200, $300 million in my opinion, but they can do it because they want a seat at that table. They want this thing to come together. And the PGA tour, listen, like you said, they're juicing their purses. They're paying out all this pit money and everything. But as they say in the great movie Top Gun, your egos writing checks your body. can't cash because they are absolutely, they can't keep this pace up. I mean, you already see it. They're asking sponsors to put in these fees to get the tournaments to stay there and everything.

Wells Fargo, one of the loyal events on the PJ tour out there at Quail Hollow, they said they're out after this year. They don't want any part of this. So I think they've, I think this is going to give us a chance for this deal to get done before the deadline of December 31st. I think it almost has to. You look at, like you mentioned, Wells Fargo, Honda, it's happening to these guys. They're asking these sponsors to foot the bill to try to keep up with these purses. And they're not willing to do it. They're like, no, dude, why?

I'm paying more now. You want me to pay more to get a field that's more diluted than it's ever been before? I'm not getting the biggest name guys. Half of them are over there. But yet you want me to take on this financial burden to maintain it. Like it doesn't pencil for them. They're in the return on investment business. Like they're not going to do that.

The PJ tour was slow to react. They got out over their skis. They could maintain it for a year like they did this year, but they can't do it going down the road. and ultimately now they're in a bind and they need money like both sides have something the other one wants the PJ tour needs a bunch of money Piff has it. And Piff wants a seat at the table and like golf legitimacy. And guess what? The PGA tour has it.

Like figure it out. Whether you're pro-live, anti-Liv, pro PGA, anti-PGA, whatever, this is where we are right now and something's got to come together or just basically all the fans are getting screwed out of seeing the best players play other than four times a year, which the majors will be juicy this year. If it doesn't happen this year, like they get added clout. But other than that, everything else is just diluted. Yeah, the majors are going to be incredible.

I just, you know, I think the fans are getting screwed. And I think they're also getting sick of hearing about all this. Oh, poor rich people arguing over where they're going to play. Like, no one cares. We just want to see you go out there and compete and play against each other on the best golf courses in the world for the biggest prizes. I mean, that's what we want to see. But one question I have is, Jay Monaghan, where are you? That's a recurring question.

Can we just see your face? Make sure you're still there. give us something. At least come out and be like, look, we know everything that's going on. We're working on it. I would actually be okay if he would just come out and say, listen, we're working diligently on getting this thing done. I haven't seen his face. I know he did some speaking engagement the other day at some, I don't know, even know what it was. But he has not come out and spoke to golf fans. I feel like since June 6th. Yeah. And you're getting. This is what I've been saying. The whole time, man, it's like, dude, this is why you have the big job.

This is why you get paid the big dollars is to handle these tough situations. This is the biggest one golf's ever been confronted with. Where are you? And for a long time, he trotted Rory out there and he did his work for him. Then the June 6th announcements came, which was a surprise to every single person out there. And what happened? I'm not going to say anything about his help, but he had a leave of absence. He wasn't there to answer questions.

Other people were. Other people were at the congressional hearings. It's like, dude, what exactly is it that why are you, you know, why are you the guy? The leaders have to lead. and this is the time for leadership and it hasn't been there. And I'm totally with you. Come out and make some sort of statement. Be visible.

Answer the tough questions. That's why you're in place. And I just think as this thing moves on and on, it's getting harder and harder for the J defenders to defend him just because it's a tough look. And I can't imagine it really have gone much worse for him since this whole thing started. Yeah, I think, you know, the next few weeks are going to be very interesting to see if a deal gets done. See who else goes and signs with live. But, you know, still a lot of.

of unanswered questions. It's crazy. John Rom's really, really, really, really wealthy, which is cool. You know, we're going to miss him on the PGA tour, but congrats to him on making all that money. And also, congrats to Lydia Coe and Jason Day, who won the Grant Thornton, the mixed team of it, by the way, which kind of got overshadowed by the John Rom news, but that was a really cool event down in Naples, and congrats to them on the win. Remember when the golf rollback was like a big deal? That was like four days ago. That feels like ages ago. It's just you can't keep up with all the things that keep going on in this world right now. It's like all that stuff was put to bed. John Rom dominating the headlines as he should,

but it's a wild time. Do you think, Colt, though, with John Rom that this like increases the chances of a deal coming together sooner rather than later? Do you feel more, I do, more ambitious that it'll happen? Yeah, I do, because the number was just so ridiculous. Like, I mean, we hear, you know, Phil Mixing got 200 early on. Dustin Johnson, Brooks Kebke, good, Bryson, Chamba, 125 to 1,000. 150, like those are massive numbers, but 300 million. I mean, that's a total another league. And I know he's the number three ranked player in the world, but that's just wild. I think that's just a statement saying, all right, here's the deal. You know, everyone has a number and we can get to it. We can get to every single person's number on the PGA tour, maybe except for Roy McRoy,

just because he has such a firm stance against it. But everyone else, we can get to their number, and we'll get them if you don't want to do this deal with us. Yeah, what we want, we're going to get. Let me ask you this, because when the framework agreement was initially announced there was a no tampering clause in there where they couldn't recruit, you know, Lyft couldn't recruit from the PJ tour, but that was taken out by the DOJ. Okay, like, no, you can't do that. We're going to sit down. Well, the lawsuit was dropped. Right. Yeah. So that was, the lawsuit was dropped, but the no tampering clause had to be taken out. Like, you can't go actively recruit. When the PJ tour started to announce like, hey, we have

other options. We have private equity options that we're exploring and things like that. Do you think that, I don't want to say pissed live off, but to the point where they're like, oh, you're exploring other finance options to where you don't have to, you know, come to the table with. us and all right we're going to go after your players do you think someone asked me that the other day and i was like that's a valid point i don't know if that had anything to do with the john rom deal or not i don't think it made the people over at live and piff happy by any means it's like hey here's the deal and by the way that report came out that live or piff offered to put one billion dollars toward in a fund towards the players that stayed loyal and then two billion towards the

pga tour uh where's that piece of paper sign it right now because that sounds like a pretty damn good deal. Dude, a billion for the guys that didn't go. We're talking guys that lives never wanted, never would talk to, had zero interest in whatsoever, and they're going to get some sort of chop out of a billion. I mean, if that was an actual real offer, I don't know who said, nah, that's not good enough. Well, let's go back to the table. I mean, it's like everything they could have ever wanted plus, in my opinion, but it somehow wasn't good enough. I think a deal gets done after this John Romney's and potentially more names to follow. Well, I sure hope so, but good news this, Lee's.

I made it back from Cabo in one piece. I didn't have to deal with all that golf ball rollback stuff, which was very nice. You were still hitting bombs. Doesn't matter. You could play a marshmallow still hits seeds, dog. Hitting bombs, sipping on my favorite tequila, Sincorro right here. I think I still got some of my blood from last week, but... Wouldn't be surprised.

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knocked it off the table fell on the ground which was concrete you know what happened colt hurt the concrete exactly nothing kept playing party kept going on get you there's another good holiday gift right here these things are spectacular use it once you'll never use a different one tequila and music nothing better and some golf by the way which our guest this week he happens to like all three of those things very much not tequila as much anymore but back in his day he wasn't scared to put some back but this is one man i've been wanting to get this guy on for a long time sleaze he's one of the best personalities the game of golf has ever seen. I've had the opportunity to spend some time with him in Dallas. The great Lee Trevino sits down with us for an over an hour. The supermex, dude, there's

nobody better, one of a kind. They don't make them like this anymore. Always fun to hear Mr. Trevino talk a little golf. And he's got his new supermex golf line out. Make sure you go check that out. Let's get to Lee Trevino on golf subpar. Okay, folks, we have a national treasure with us here today, one of the greatest ever hold of golf club, 92 professional wins, six-time major champ, and a man who has one of the greatest quotes of all time, in my opinion, I can't wait to wake up in the morning and hear what I have to say. The great Lee Trevino. Mr. Trevino, how are you? How are you guys? Man, it's great. I mean, I tell you what, you guys do a great job, and I really appreciate being on today. Just turned 84 years old, still swinging a little bit.

bit. I got to tell you a little story, though. I'm getting ready. I'm getting ready for the father's son. And I hadn't played all year, hardly at all. I don't play much anymore. And I figured I've got to get ready. I was hitting it so bad. I actually topped some balls on the driving range. I mean, I never topped the ball out of, I can't remember ever in my life doing this. So my son says to me, She says, you need to go see Randy. Randy Smith is a personal friend of mine. You know Randy. Oh, yeah.

And Daniel says, he needs to look at you. He needs to look at you. I said, Daniel, I made a vow many, many years ago that I would never take a lesson from a golf, from anyone that I could beat. I said, if I could beat them, I wouldn't take a lesson from him. So I called Randy up, and I said, have you got to? 15 minutes to look at me, I said, I think you can beat me now. That is beautiful. You're allowed to teach me now, Randy. The great Randy Smith.

And you know what? He absolutely hit it on the head right on the thing. He says, you're trying to get more speed. And by getting more speed, you're a holder. He said, you were a holder, your whole life. And he says, you're trying to get more speed holding. And he says, you're actually moving past the line. Your center line is moving way to the left. and you have no speed at all. And he was exactly right. There's a big tree on the left, and he says, I want you to hit this seven and over that tree.

And, you know, I stayed back, you know, where my head almost moved backwards, the ball went over the tree. He said, that's all you got to do. He said, just pretend there's a tree in front of you. You're a good teacher. And you still got it. Like you said, you're heading down to the PNC.

You've played 26 or 27 of these in a row. How much fun is this week for you? I know you playing with Daniel this year. PNC does one fabulous job. This particular golf tournament is our Augusta. It's like people trying to go to Augusta. I qualified for Augusta. I qualified for Augusta.

This is Daniel and I, two years ago, had the lead with four holes to go. And Dustin Thomas and his dad birded a couple of holes coming in. We actually finished third because Vijay got in the second plate. But as soon as we get on the plane and go back, we start reminiscing about where we made the mistakes and what we got to work on for next year. We actually start thinking about the power of it's like Great Britain in the Riter Cup. As soon as they win the Riter Cup, they start thinking about how they're going to win next year all of a sudden. But yeah, we start thinking about it all year.

We talk about it all year. Yeah, I look forward to this. You know, I had the pleasure of playing at a high level and winning major championships, and I can't tell you how that feels coming down the stretch. But playing in a father-son is fabulous to watch your son, you know, hitting shots and trying and working hard at it and carrying me. I mean, he won't putted every green two years ago. I could, I had the yips, you know.

I had the yips. I still, I don't know where I'm going now. I'm going long putter, arm lock, short putter. I'm going back. The right foot's going. I've got so many things going on instead of just putting. like I used to, you know, just getting up there and doing my old stuff. I don't know. Well, I've known you for a long time, and I know there's no doubt you will figure it out

when you get down there. But this event's been so special. But now that Tiger Woods has started playing with his son Charlie, what's it been like seeing Tiger? Because we know him as the ferocious competitor out there winning major championships. But now you can truly see how much he enjoys it being out there with his son, Charlie. He, he, I'm telling you, the first thing I said to him when I saw him. He was there. And I saw him coming to the range. And he was hitting some chips. And I was in a cart. And I know Tiger pretty well. I've known him since he was eight years old. And I walked over to him. And before he ever said a word, he had a smile on his face. And Charlie was hitting chip shots. And the first thing I said to him, as I said,

Now you know how your dad felt. And he says, he looked at me and he says, you know, he says, you're right. I said, yeah, I said, you're very proud of this guy, aren't you? And he said, I sure am. And I said, there's no experience like it. And when Charlie hit that driver three wood on the green on the third hole and had a putt for an eagle, I mean, this kid, just kidding. I mean, he went to my belt buckle, and he shouldn't hide three woods with a draw.

I can't do that off of a tee, you know. I mean, it was amazing. It was just amazing to watch this kid hit golf ball. But tighter has got a competitive streak in him, as you well know. It doesn't make any difference if he's playing marbles or throwing darts. He wants to win. He wants to win. And there'll be a threat this year because Charlie's hitting it farther and he's playing better.

And if you notice his scores in his high school tournament, which they won, Benjamin won the state championship. He didn't play well the first two rounds, but he shot 67, I think, the last round. And they used his round and they ended up winning state. But I'm pretty sure Charlie's practicing pretty hard right now. He's got some game, no doubt. to assume. And just watching him on television is strange as a guy that grew up that kind of got into the game because the Tiger Woods. You see this kid in every single mannerism, the way he leans on the putter, the twirls, the fist pumps and stuff. I mean, it's weird watching it. You're like,

oh, my God, that's just a little mini version. What about the ankle last year? Oh, yeah, the limping. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. Lymphs the same. And he's, and he's limping also. He said, I hurt my ankle and then going down the fat way. That's crazy. And there's like two people with three legs. You know what I'm saying? They were just beat up. They were beat up.

I want to ask you one last thing about Tiger because I didn't realize you met him when he was eight years old. So give me the first impressions of an eight-year-old Tiger Woods. Did you know something like this could happen? He had glasses on. He had a pair of glasses on, clear glasses. They were huge. They were bigger than his face.

And we sponsored. I was with the Toyota company for quite a few years, almost eight years before I went on senior tour. And he won all the tournaments, and he played in Southern California in that junior program down there. And Toyota sponsored it. And at the end of every year, they would have one last tournament for the juniors. and it's a junior organization there in San Diego, one of the best in the country. And we would go down to present the trophies.

And they gave trophies for low round of the year, most low rounds of the year, most tournaments won, player of the year. And we had to give tigers a truck to take all his trophies home because he won them all. He won everything. Most improved. And so when he was like 11 or 12 years old,

we were there and all the kids were agging me on about having a driving contest with him. And I said, what are you doing driving contest? He wasn't real tall at the time. He had those big old glasses on and he says, yeah. He said, you want to have drag on it? So he hit one and he, I mean, he busted it. And I hit one and I looked at it and I said, I tell you what, make a deal with you. What?

I said, it's the tie. I said it's a tie because he drove me. I think he was 12 years old. Yeah, I've known him a long time, long time. That's awesome. I kept up with him. I remember when, I remember the press conference in 1996

when he was sitting there. What's the first thing he said? He had a little smile and he says, hello, world. I mean, that's, remember, that's exactly what he said? Yeah. Those are the famous lines. And we want to get into a lot of Lee Trevino stories,

but one last tiger one for me. As he's gotten older, you can kind of notice he's more available to the younger players. Like Justin Thomas, for instance, right? He kind of took him under his wing. He helps him out. And right now, do you have any tour pros that come to you and want to pick your brain and say,

hey, Lee, when I'm out here, I think this. Or do you have any advice for this type of shot? Are you offering advice to some of the young pros that are out there? I do that all the time. The only person, the only pro that ever came here to Dallas when I was here, and he was visiting a friend of his, and he called me, and we went out to Preston Trails, and we did, it was Coocher. Coocher came, and we worked on the short game a little bit,

you know, that was it. It's pretty easy to chip at P.T because we have Zoya. And, I mean, that's like Teed your ball up with a peg, you know, every time you play on Zordia, especially if it's got any growth to it whatsoever. But, oh, yeah, yeah. And as a matter of fact, what was it? Last year or so when Charlie and I and Tiger were at the end of the driving range, you know, Tiger was having to hit some short wet shots and stuff so Charlie could see what my hands were doing and what I was coming across with the ball and then hitting the fade, you know, how I was doing it. I hit a fade by actually putting my hands way forward and getting the getting my hands close to the body and rotating. And I don't want to hit a push fade. I want to hit a

fade, a true fade. Tiger hits a fade a different way. He opens the club a little bit. Watson does that also. They open, they maneuver the club a little bit open, and then they come across it and the ball fade. I don't like to do that because holders, if you don't, if you're a holder, you have to watch that because you'll shove it. You'll push a fade to the right. So I have to be square to target or, I mean square to my line and with my hands way forward, because I don't want them to push forward anymore and I come across it. But, you know, that's about it. It's a different game, as you well know. I mean, it's a power game now. You know, nobody does anything. Scotty, Scotty, it doesn't surprise me that he has dominated and he always played like he's played.

And the reason for it is because he's big. He's tall. He plays closer to the ball. The closer you can play to the ball, the more the goth swing comes pendulam. Okay? Less things can go wrong. The shorter you are and the farther away you have to stand from the ball and it's an arc now. A lot of things can go wrong. People criticize, people criticize, Sheffer because of the way he slides his right foot back. And I tell people, I said, man, I said,

that's that's genius. And they said, why? I said, because he gets, he connects the ball at 7 o'clock. And I said, you want a club to come in from the inside. You never want a club coming in from the outside, over the top. You want it to come in from the inside. That's how you work it. And I said, when he slides that foot back, his hands actually come inside closer to his body. And that's where his power is. And what is he, six three, six four, something like that. And he had a little, you know, in the middle of the summer, he had a little problem. Randy and I talked about it. He had a little problem with the putter. And he had it out of position, you know. He's a hitter. He hits it. And when you, when you don't stroke a putt and you take a putter back and, and, and, and, and, and, and you hit it, you, you can't have

the ball too far forward. That's where you make the mistake. Bad putters, when you start having putting problems, generally it's because the ball's too far forward in your stand. Let me tell you something. You're a tree with two limbs. Your limbs can only go that far, that way. In other words, the trunk's not moving. So in putting, if the arms can only go so far out, and if the ball's way up there, it's going to start rotating. The putter will start rotating. to the left, then you'll try to compensate, then you'll push to the right. If you notice he pushed a lot of puds, pulled a lot of putt, and then he got it straightened out. I watched him in the Bahamas. He putted fantastic. Yeah.

Yeah, if he puts like that, it's trouble for the rest of the field. But you know, you mentioned working with it. It's a problem. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Some big news here from Subpar. We have officially launched our own YouTube page. Make sure to subscribe at Golf underscore Subpar on YouTube. Check out this week's video. Like, subscribe, do all the stuff. Colt, we got some cool behind-the-scenes stuff coming and give you a little outside look at some of the stuff outside the studio.

So please like, please subscribe. You're the best listeners in the game. We love you. Back to the show. You mentioned working with some guys, like, I mean, one of my favorite days of the year was every year you and I would go out to Dallas National and spend the day, practice, have lunch,

play nine holes. Like, it was just, it fascinates me the way you talk about golf because you truly love it so much. But one thing I always noticed when we would go play was downwind, like, you didn't really hit it that far, but into the wind, you struck it so well. You would hit it up there with pretty much anyone you would play with. What was it about that?

Because you told me a funny comment, I believe, something like, if every hole was into the wind, Nicholas would have been something. Like, you basically would have had his number. He'd have been a pharmacist, I said. There it is. That's the line. Not really. Not really.

I was making a joke. He's the goat. He's the goat. You can say whatever you want to by whomever. He's the goat. I didn't know Bobby Jones. I know he was a goat. too. And Walter Hagen was tough as nailed, but I got to see and play against the goat. And I'm sure

Tiger was just as tough or tougher than the goat. But I go by majors and I go by whatever, you know, Tigers won more tournament than Jack did. And, you know, Tiger's got 18 majors. I mean, tigers got, what, 15 majors and the goat has 18. So that's what I go by? Yeah. I love it. Be a pharmacist. Be a pharmacist. Well, stay on Nicholas then for a second, because when it came to being paired with Nicholas, like head to head, you were as successful as virtually anyone during that time.

Was that just because playing with Nicholas got the, like go back to the 71, you know, U.S. Open, you got the 18-hole playoff and all that? Did he just bring the best out of you? Or was there something about your game that you think kind of threw him off a little bit? Yeah, Nicholas brought the best out in everybody. He set the bar. He set the bar. See, the mentality that I have is I didn't think I could beat him.

But if I was in the same group, was a feather in my hat, because that was just like the playoff in 71. When we were sitting in that locker room and we were asked a question about how we were going to fare tomorrow, and my statement was, I've already won. Whether I lose or not, I have won. and I said because I shot 280, tied the best player in the world, and I said, even if I lose tomorrow, I have won. I said, because I got to play an extra 18 holes against the best in the world. That tells you something, and you got to take a little bit of pride in that.

But I enjoyed playing with him simply because he hit it so well. And the thing that I learned from Jack more than anything is he made a plan. Mr. Hogan was like that. He made a plan. In other words, when he got to a golf course, especially a major golf course, he would map that course out. And he would decide what club he was going to hit off that tea every day. And that's what he would do. Case in point, we played Tanglewood, come to 18.

He's the shot back. He didn't hit driver. He hit a tree wood. And I couldn't believe he was hitting three wood off of 18 at Tanglewood. And he's a shot back last round. Hubert Green and I and Jack Nicholas were playing together. But you know why he hit the three wood? Because that's exactly what he had planned.

And that's what he did. He was a master. I mean, he could look at a scoreboard and play when he played around the golf, he'd look at a scoreboard. and he didn't care if he shot 71 and somebody came in there with a 65 and he would say, nah, they'll be back. Except for you. Yeah, they were.

Except for you. He knew you wouldn't be back. Well, he knew that I wasn't going to give him anything. You know, he said that before. He said, where he was difficult as if he got in front, I had to do something to overtake that because he wouldn't give you anything back. you know i mean when i won the open in 68 up in new york and and in rochester new york and he was playing in front of me i think he was yes because i was playing with bert yancey

and he was playing in front of me and we came i i hadn't hardly missed a fair way the whole week and I'd never won a tournament before. That was my first win. It was the 68 Open in Rochester and Oak Hill. And I get to 16, I put it in the rough. Man, I wasn't used to going in the rough. And then I chipped it. I hit it back out about 40-yard Charlotte Green.

I chipped it up about 6 feet. I made it par. 17 dog-leg right. Very difficult hole for me. I hit driver. I couldn't reach it. I hit driver three wood, yard of the bunker. I chipped it six inches. I duck hooked it off 18 in the rough.

Kevin Quinn, my caddy said to me, he said, take the wedge, just put it out in front. You've got a four-shot lead. I said, man, I'm not going to be remembered as one in the 68 open laying up on 18. Give me that six-acre. I laid the side right over that one, too. Stayed in the rough. He said, are you ready to hit the wedge now? I said, give me that wedge. And I hit the wedge and I hit it three feet from the hole and hold it. But I was choking. I mean, that was the first time that I felt a lot of pressure. And I was choking so bad that I had enough cotton in my mouth that I could have knitted a sweater.

I'm telling you it was unbelievable. I love that line. Yeah, and I ended up winning. And you know who played behind us that year? It was so funny because television was just starting to get into the golf business. And ABC at the time was telecasting that. And they, the audience and the television wanted to see Arnold Paul. And Arnie was way back in the field.

And they came to us and asked us if Arnold and Arnold and an amateur by the name of Jack Lewis could play behind us simply because the people wanted to see Arnie. We told him fine, no problem. And that's it. And that was the first time I met Arnold is when he, He came and congratulated me in the scores in the scores, in the scores, yeah. That was the first time I met him.

He'd just finished right behind us. That's awesome. That's really cool that they did that for TV and everything. But you're one of the best shot makers of all time. And today the game has changed so much where they don't play the way you do anymore. What are your thoughts about the direction the game of golf has gone compared to what it was back in your day? well you know i have mixed emotions about what they're trying to do to it right now is they're a little upset about they're thinking that the golf courses are not long enough only because these guys

are trained they're bigger they don't have any fat on them like me you know i mean i'm i mean and they're bigger guys they're taller uh they hit it so far um that uh and the golf clubs the way that the golf clubs are manufactured and they're made stronger. I mean, all these clubs that they're hitting now, people are saying, oh, you know, you're standing at home and the guy's got 167 yards. What's he hitting?

Oh, he's got a wedge out. And you're saying, what? A wedge? I'd have to hit a five hybrid. We're hitting six irons, 165. But the problem is, The manufacturers have been able to manufacture golf clubs to where they have less loft, but the way that the cavity back is constructed and the clubs are hollow, they have a little bit of a trampling effect now, and the ball gets high and it goes farther.

And everybody's starting to panic about, oh, we got to make the courses longer. Make courses longer. You have to understand one thing about golf courses is those pros don't pay dues. They're not paying dues. they just come there for four days, take your money, and leave. And the members now have to put up with this golf course. They're the ones that are paying the initiation fee. They're the ones that paying the dude.

And now they're talking about bringing the ball back. And I'm just wondering now, are they going to do this with tennis also? Because a guy's too good. Are they going to put chairs on his side on the court? They're going to end up putting chairs over there. I think they should just leave a good thing alone. just leave it alone. These kids are all hitting wedges.

They're playing. Can you imagine, you remember when you played, you got a part four that was 480? I mean, you had to hit a five wood in there or something big. These guys are hitting seven and eight iron playing 500-yard holds. I mean, they're driving the ball 330, 340, you know. But I think it's in a good spot. I think if they keep messing with it, if they keep messing with it, they're going to mess it up.

They're going to mess it up. I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, golf has never been more popular. More people are coming into the game. Now, I don't know why we want to change it. But you mentioned, I mean, how some of these guys play. I'm out there walking with Roy McElroy, John Rom. I mean, where they drive the golf ball league?

I'm like, how do you ever play bad from here? You're 3.30 in the middle of every damn fairway. Tiger started it. I remember when they talked to Tiger about him hitting the ball so far, but he wasn't straight. And Tiger says, I don't care about being straight. He said, I want to hit it $3.50, and then I'll negotiate from there. And that's what Tiger told him. So everybody started killing it now.

Gary Player told me years ago, he said, Lee, there's going to be a guy come along that's going to be 6, 68, 6.7, he's going to hit him. We got a kid here that's going to Texas. as Morrison, as you know, he's 6'9. You know what? I mean, he hits that ball so far that it goes out of sight. But, you know, they've got to leave this thing alone. I don't know why they're talking about bringing the ball back. Yeah, it's not going to happen until 30, probably,

and bring the ball back because it goes too far. It's all relevant. It doesn't make any difference how far it goes. You know, the guy still that hits it to far, and it's got the fastest clubhead speed. Regardless of what you make the ball, he's still going to be the longest hitter. They should leave it alone.

They should leave it alone. All these people, in my opinion, that are making these decisions, I think I don't see anything wrong with them going into a boardroom and talking about what they're going to do. But there can't be a cocktail party before they start this. You understand? That's good. They have a cocktail party, then they go in and have dinner and talk about this.

Now, that's a bad time. What I think we should do? Roll the ball? Yeah, make it go shorter. Golf's the only sport, too, where it seems like, or the only thing in life that I can think of that's trying to go backwards. Everything else is going forward, progressing, progressing. Golf's going backwards. I want to ask you something like staying on the modern game for a second because you had a homemade golf swing.

Self-taught, you turned yourself into one of the greatest ball strikers to ever play the game. what's your opinion right now on all the the teaching the technology the trackments all this stuff and a lot of swings you see guys working on technique and position and stuff do you think there's just what's your opinion on all the technology and instruction and stuff going on right now that's what's made them better that's what's made them better uh simply because now you you can have an instructor and he can tell you something and you may not believe him until you see it you have to see And I've never had my swing filmed because I know it wasn't a good one. And I told him, I said, well, I don't want to eat before I see this.

I said, whatever it is, I don't want to have dinner before I see this way. But not last week, for instance, Daniel and I were hitting those. And I have a bad habit of reaching out for the driver because I don't put the driver directly behind the ball. Kind of I'm on the toe. And I'm always, I look like Fred of St. stay. I'm always moving my feet. And then I whack at it. And Daniel back up being taken a film with his phone and he wanted to show me. And I'm going to tell you something. I had my elbow. This elbow was way out to the right. I mean, it was so far away from my body that I had no

power, none whatsoever. And he said, that's, I said, you got to be joking. And then I saw a clip of Mr. Hogan. Do you remember what he said? He was on the Ed Sullivan show, I think he was once, and he says, all you have to do is take both elbows. He says, put him in your side, grab the club, and swing it. That's what he said. That's how simple it is, you know. But yeah, I, you know, I kind of messed around a little bit too much. This is what happened. But I think it's great. I think the track man and all these teachers, I don't agree with taking these teacher with you to a tournament. I don't think that the, I mean, I look at Augusta, there's more instructors on the putting

green than they are participants. You understand what I'm saying? I don't think they should be allowed to go to the major championship. If you're not ready to play in a major championship, you remember what Darrell Royal said about his football team? When he took his team out of town, he says, you got to dance with who brung you? That's just what it is. And you can't do that.

I said that to Justin Thomas' dad. He and I were having some coffee at the writer's cup. And he had all these machines in his hands. You know me, I'm a clown. I'm saying, what the hell is that? What is that stuff? And he said, I said, listen, if he ain't ready, if he's not ready when he got here, I said,

that ain't that's that going to help him. That's a good point. Now, you talk about that. Now, you see what Colin, got a penalty. Now, you see how goofy all this stuff is. These guys are in this rule making these rules and stuff. It is crazy.

It's crazy. Now, Colin is playing. His caddy is the one that had a card to tell him where the errors were on the green. What the hell difference does it make? The yardages are on a sprinkler. You can use a range finder. You can use a book in the fairway. and you can't use one on the green,

that doesn't make any sense to me. None whatsoever. None. That one was confusing. You can memorize it, but you can't write it down, apparently is the thing. So it's like you gather the information, but you can't jot it. You can memorize it, you can't write it down. Yeah, that's essentially the rule.

Now, that had to be a genius to thought that one up. I mean, uh-huh. And they changed some. much at that meeting. Yeah, I mean, come on, man. Yeah, a lot of interesting things going on with the changes in the game. I mean, we went from hazard to penalty area. I mean, that was a big topic. We had to do that. God forbid you call it hazard out there. Yeah, but you brought up Augusta National. And I don't know there's some things that happened, you know, off the golf course with Augusta National, but just your record there because you won every other major twice.

Augustin National, your best finish was 10th. Was it just the case that you and the golf course didn't get along, didn't fit your eye? Or what was the deal with? Cliff Robertson get along. I knew that. I'll play in a cotton field. Hey, listen, I'll play in a cotton field. Don't worry about it. I tell people, I say, that's why I'm straight.

I used to hit the balls down between the roads of the cotton. You know, but no, no, no. We, he and I didn't see eye to eye on the ticket situation. Okay? And so, you know, I went to his office and we had a lot of discussions back. for him. And he was angry, and I was angry, and I'm short-fused. I'm a very short-fused person, and I just told him what they could do with it.

And I left. I didn't go back for three years. Jack talked me even going back. Yeah, I led twice after 36 holes there, but 10th was the best I ever played on it. Yeah. It was my fault. I should have never lost my cool. but I'm, you know, I do that.

I don't do it as much now. My wife, Claudia, has kind of tamed me down a little bit. And my problem was I was never a listener. You understand? When you talk as much as I do, you're always talking. You don't listen to what people are saying to you. And I have a bad habit of that. And I've gotten better.

I'm still not there. I'm trying to get there before I turn 100, and maybe it's okay. You got plenty of time. One of my favorite quotes. I got a lot of time. I got 16 years. Yeah, dude, you're just figuring it out. One of my favorite quotes from you is when Tony Jacqueline told you he didn't want to talk today.

And you said, I don't need you to talk. I just need you to listen. Yeah, that was so funny. It was so far. We're playing Wentworth, the match to play championship. And it was the semifinals. And it was 7.30 in the morning. It was a little cool because we played there in November, London.

And so he was already almost on the tea and I came out of the locker room. And he stopped to talk to someone. And as I walked by him, he actually stopped me and he says, listen. And he said, I just want to play golf today. He says, I don't want to talk. And just because I'm pretty quick. And I said, just as quick as he said that, I said, you don't have to talk to me. Just listen.

I said, just listen. Don't have to talk. You know that we had, if I'm not mistaken. in that match. We were playing the small ball. We played 36 hold semifal. And we had three Eagles

and 26 birdies between the two of us. Wow. And I beat him one up. I made an eight footer on 18, four or five. And I beat him one up

on the last hole. Damn. Hell of a match. That is a hell of a match. And I was always like... I'll tell you something about Tony Jacklin. He was a very handsome man and he could play.

He could really play. And people always were talking about that when he lost the Open Championship at Meelfield, when Jack was going for the Triple Crown for the third leg, and I chipped in, a member of 17, and ended up winning the tournament by a shot from Jack. And Jack was finished. Everybody talked about that Tony quit simply because he, He was frustrated by losing that tournament. And that wasn't the case at all.

That wasn't the case at all. And Tony told me that the reason he quit is because he didn't have a life. He was with IMG at the time, and he was running, he was just doing too much. He didn't have any time for himself. They were booking him here, here, here, here, here, he was very popular. He won the U.S. Open in 70. He won the Open Championship. I mean, he could really play.

He could really play this guy. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of just golf in general. It's like you got to be a little bit selfish to do it. And there's just so much time it takes away from other things. But I think the era that you played in, Mr. Trevino, like there were so many characters of the game. Feels like there were more big personalities at the time. And I got one name I want to throw out to you here. I just want you to tell me the first thing that comes to mind if I say the name, John Jacobs. John Jacobs may have had, I don't know of anyone that had any more talent than he did. He was the longest hitter of everybody back then. Nobody could come close to out-driving him. His brother, Tommy, wasn't half of the player that he was, even though Tommy went on to win a major and play extremely well for a lot of years. Passed away, I think, three or four years ago. But John could hit it.

He could absolutely hit it. Good looking guy, big. six four I've lost track of him I think he's still living I'm not sure nobody said anything to me about it do you want to know what he's doing actually

he owns a he owns a cupcake shop actually I don't know he might be on the run from the IRS he owns a cupcake shop I remember he's owned that for a while had in a state in the western United States I don't want to give away his location I think he's on the lamb from a few people but I think it was your quote that you said when you were

asked about him. I think it's something along these lines. You said, if John Jacobs didn't have every vice known to man, you would have never heard of Jack Nicholas. I'm telling you, he would, well, you'd have heard of Jack, but you'd have heard of you, but, but he would, he would, John would have been right next to it. Yeah, you'd have heard of him, but he, I mean, this guy had no, you didn't have a weakness. You know, golfers have weaknesses. You know that. You played at a high level. You always have a weakness. It's either a bunker shot or a to draw a driver or to cut a wedge. There's weaknesses.

Nobody has a weakness. The only guy that ever I've ever seen that didn't have a weakness, Jack couldn't play wedges. You know that. He was a bad wedge player. And I asked Jack one time, I said, let me ask you a question. I said, you know, well, he up there, he's playing off a bent grass, you know, up in Ohio. You understand?

or the divotives you, I mean, the birds, when I play up in Connecticut, the birds follow me, those white birds, because I dig worms up, you know, because I hit down a hawks so steep. And his dog used to playing on Bermuda grass, but, you know, but I asked Jack, I said, let me ask you a question. I said, why, the way you drive it, the greatest putter I've ever seen. I know Bobby Locke was good, but I didn't, I played with Bobby Locke. But Jack is the greatest, still, at the age of 60, he's going to be 64, January 20, still can put the same way. The method that he has is flawless. You know, nobody's ever copied it.

And it's flawless the way he does it. And I asked him, I said, why are you such a bad wedge player? And he says, well, I never had to hit one. I said, you know, okay. because, you know, the court would play Donald Ross courses, what? The majority of the par fours were what, 365, 380? I mean, you never saw 400-yard part four back in the old days. And Jack's hitting the ball 300 yards with the old stuff.

Preserman, 42-inch club, 11-inch degree on the driver, and he's hitting at 300 yards. He's the only one that can hit at 300 yards. If you read the last article that was in the Kingdom magazine, he says, I know I had power. He says, but I never used it. He said, I very seldom never used the whole power. And that's what he did. He lined up to the left, down the road.

Jack would hit the, would aim down the left side of the rough and move the left shoulder as fast as he could. He had, Simpson had the fast left shoulder. Watch Simpson. But Jack had the fastest left shoulder I've ever seen. What do you have when you have a fence left shoulder? You hold the angle longer. The hands don't have time to go this way.

You understand? You hold the angle. And so he hit a fade. He hit a high fade every time to the green. He always aimed down the left side. Jack was a fader. Everybody thinks he drew the ball. He never did that.

He faded everything. You know, just a small fade. Hit it higher than I did, but he moved it from left to right. But he couldn't play a wedge. he couldn't play a watch it was it was very difficult for him finally later in years he went to Phil Rogers in San Diego

and Phil helped him a little bit and he got better with it when I beat him in the playoff at Marion and you can look this up I bogeed one and went one down he left it in the bunker on two he left it in the bunker on three

and he and he covered the ball up with his divot on 10 and I mean he hit it fat covered it right up I should have never beat him there I should have never beat him there we got a rain delay and it rained for about an hour

and it softened up the golf course and my low trajectory irons were stopping on the green now because Marion's got oval small greens and I always had trouble keeping the ball on the green there and that was the only reason I had a shot at him

I shot 68 and I think he shot 71. Yeah. And I mean, look, you came from not a whole lot growing up, obviously, but some of your best stories are the gambling games you played in, which I'm fascinated with. I mean, that's basically how I learned how to play the game was under pressure, at least, was playing for some cash on the line. Yeah, when you didn't have any.

Exactly. What was it like when, I mean, you had guys out there backing you and book it on you, but what was it like going out there playing some of those gambling games? Oh, it was good. Well, I loved it when I got back me. That's when I was dangerous because it wasn't my money. So I had no pressure. And I could play a little bit.

Pressure would come. You know, you play tennis and East. I had a five to a six plus at Tennessee East. I never shot over 65. And so, you know, when we got gambling games, I knew that the guy wasn't going to tell me what his handicap was, that his true handicap. I mean, if he was a seven, if he was a four or a three, he would say he was a seven,

and he thought he was taking advantage of me. But the thing about it is, he'd ask me what my handicap was, and I didn't know about plus and minus as far as handicapped was concerned. And I'd say, I don't have one. Oh, he said, you're scratch. I said, I guess. I don't have a handicap. He said, oh, okay.

He said, well, you got to give me, I'll take four on the front and three on the back. I said, you got it. And I'd put 65 on it, 64. See, so that cheating me out of three strokes didn't help him any. You see, it didn't help me. And that's what I did. But yeah, I got, I was a fast gun. I got hired to play.

Don't know what they bet. And I didn't care. I just, you know, when I went out and played, you know, the guy'd give me a hundred bucks. I mean, there's a lot of money back then, a lot of money, yeah. Go back to one specific one, because you have a lot of gambling stories that are well known, but this is the one that resonates with me. game that was set up with Raymond Floyd when he came out to West Texas, and then Titanic Thompson game as well, the legend. How did that get set up? And did you know who Titanic Thompson was at

that time you had that match? I did not know who Ty was. I learned and I know he's history now. I know him pretty well. And I spent some time with him. So I knew after he watched me play, he wanted me to travel with him. And he wanted to stick me in the caddy barn. And other the words and that's when he goes and picks a caddies i'll pick a caddy as my partner and we'll play you two guys and that's just what he did the fat man did that one time marty stanovich when i was working at the driving range back in the mid-60s uh he came from chicago and had a big game at tennyson park and he heard about me and the fat man came to the driving range and he had a great personality and he's leaning on the counter and he's asking me all these questions and all this stuff and he said you know

he said, yeah, I hear you play out of tennis, and I said, I do. He said, yeah, I'm playing out there. I said, when are you playing out there? And he said, well, I got a game out there. Who's playing with? He said, well, I'm playing with Dick Martin and Arthur Carbin. And I knew all these guys. And all the big bookmakers, you know, were all out there betting all the money.

And so he said, I found out that you play out there all the time and you're very good. I said, I want to take you as a partner. and he took me as a partner and we cleaned house. And I came back to work. I never signed again. So I'm in Florida later on in the years. Well, what happened is they were having some big games out at El Paso. And these farmers doing the cotton farming, they were out of Horizon Hill.

They had a little golf course out there. And they were all playing and guys were coming in there. and they were playing this guy was a golf professional he had played the tour played the senior tour a little bit the guy was named was Fred Hawkins was the name of the guy

that was playing these farmers and they were beating him up a little bit and there's one farmer which is a big gambler he played a lot of poker he did all that stuff and he took the game up and he would play you and he says to this kid from Fort Worth

he says do you know anyone that can play golf that no one knows. And he said, I know this Mexican kid in Dallas that works at a driving range, pretty good player. So he calls me on the phone, hires me for three days, $100 a day. I was making $100 working a week. So I jumped on a plane.

He picks me up. I got a McGregor. I got a great kangaroo bag with McGregor on it with my name. And as soon as he picked me up at the airport, they'll pass up. He says, no, chico. No, Chico, he said, that bag's not going to make it. So he takes my bag, takes all my clubs out, and sticks them in that. Remember the little cotton stick bag with a stick bag on it, the green one?

He puts all the clubs in there. And we go out there, and we go to the putting green. They're all there in there. There's one guy there named Jack Redmond. Remember, he owns Stiley Shoe Company. And he says, he goes over to, he goes over to the other guy, and he says to him, he says, who you play today? And Fred said, I don't know.

He said, I'm playing that kid over there on the end. He says, what's his name? He said, I don't know. He said, he's from Dallas. His name is Lee Trebino. And so Redmond looked over and he says, Fred, he said, you better watch out. He said, I think I know that kid. And he says, hell no.

He said, if I don't know him, he can't play. So we went out and I dusted him pretty bad. So the next day we go to Campestra and I Juarez, and I'll beat him again. And then the third day we were supposed to play at Coronado, and he didn't show up. So I went back home. So I came back out, Martin hired me again to come back and play the city champion, and I beat him. So I stayed. So I got a job in the pro shop.

I opened at five in the morning. I brought the cards out, cleaned up the locker room. It was just a handyman, it's what I was. But I got off at 11 where I could play the games. So one day, who do I see? Big Mickey, one of the big bookmakers from Dallas, and he's in the pro shot. And he's laughing. Hey, man. He said, I hear y'all are playing for a lot of money.

I said, I'm not playing for a lot of money. I don't have anything. He said, well, I hear they'll bet on you if we bring somebody in here. And I said, well, Mr. Lettnage is right over there. You go talk to him. Now, Martin Lettage had no clue who Raymond Floyd was. None. So Mickey goes.

goes over there and he says, listen, we want to bring a player in here, a professional. And will you bet on your man if we bring him into play? And Martin says, bring him on, Chico. He said, we want to bring in Raymond Floyd. He says, I don't care who you bring. He says, bring him on. So I'm in the locker room one morning. Our driveway was Colici.

You could hear a car drive in. And I heard this car drive in. I looked out, it's a Cadillac. No Cadillac ever came in our parking lot. We had pickup trucks, motorcycles. We didn't have Cadillacs coming in there. So I see this guy get out of the passenger side. Tall, good-looking,

had a pair of gorgeous blue pair of pants on, Munson wear shirt, alligator's shoes, Wilson bag in the cover. I go out in a cart, put it on the cart. It weighed 200 pounds this thing. I take it in the locker room. I unload everything out of the bag, shoes, balls, everything falls up. He sets in a chair, you know, about 15 feet away.

And he says, can I get a Diet Coke? Sure, I went in a bar, I got about that Coke. He said, is there anyone here plays gin? I said, no, not this early. It was about 10 o'clock. So one of the guys that came with him had gone to the pro shop to get a cart so they could see the golf course. And he comes running back. But before he came running back,

Raymond says to me, whom am I playing today? And I said, you're playing me, Mr. Floyd. He said, who are you? I said, I'm nobody. I said, I just do the handy work around here, and I play. Okay. So the guy says, come on, let's go look at the course. He said, I got a cart.

He said, I'm not going out to look at no golf course. That's what the thing, Brayman said. He said, I'm playing the locker room attendant. He said, I'm not going out there. So we teed off at one o'clock And I shot I can't remember exactly But I shot 64 or 65 at him

And I beat him One or two shots And when we finished He wanted to play another Nine Emergency 9 And I told him I couldn't play an emergency 9 because I had to put the carts up

And he says I'm playing the cartman too So he comes back the next day And I shoot the same thing and I beat him again and then everybody dropped out they pulled up Raymond didn't

I got to tell you about him Raymond is a competitor and he didn't pull up he tripled up he went triple bet and when we came to 18 we both had eagle putts mine was 15 feet

and his was 20 he made his and I missed mine and he picked up his ball and he says had heos I've had enough of you. I ain't coming back. That's it.

Yeah, he and I tell that story. And you know what he does? He says, he tells the story. I've had people come to me and they said, you know, I've heard that story from you and I've heard it from him. And he said, it's word for word. I said, I'll never tell you a lie, my friend, because I can tell you this 10 years from now.

That's right. That's exactly what happened. That's one of the best. That was in probably 60, six maybe somewhere in there. I think he had just won the Azalea Open or something. I think he had just won a tournament, his first tournament, when he came there. That's such a good story.

I could talk gambling stories with you all day, but I want to get your opinion on what's going on right now with golf, with Liv and everything, all this money getting thrown around, guys potentially jumping tours and all this. How does that make you feel? Well, you know, it's pretty hard to have an opinion on that when I don't really know what I would do. I can't really, it's hard to answer that.

I mean, how do you turn down something like that? I mean, if it's guaranteed, if it's in your bank. I mean, that's a hard thing to do. You have to understand that you're self-employed. There's an organization here that actually is running these golf tournaments. They don't own you. They don't own you. They think they own you, but they don't.

they don't own you. You just happen to be, have a membership at a club, and you have to qualify to go over there and play in that club. And I remember talking to Manahan when he came to the father's son, when he first got in. And he says to me, he said, how are we doing? I said, there's two things I don't like. And one was that if you miss the cut, you don't make a quarter.

And that's not good. you got a family, you got rent, and you got expenses. Now, if they paid all your expenses and you missed the cut, that's okay. And I said, the other thing I don't like, I said, is the shuffle. I don't think, I think if a young man gets a card, how do you expect him to keep that card if he can't play all the tournament? You know, you shuffle them. If this guy doesn't play well the first quarter or two months,

then he gets thrown out here and hopes he gets in down the line. I said, that's the two things I don't like. Don't like it. And I like it that he's straightened that out. Now the players are getting a fee if they get a card. I don't know if it's a loan.

I don't know how it works. I don't care. It doesn't make any difference. But at least if they missed the cut, they got, you know, Mama's got some money to buy groceries. And I like that. I like that a lot.

As far as live and what they've done, they've got a lot of money. they have a ton of money. I don't know how much money we've spent on lawyer's fees, but they can absolutely keep us in court until we don't have a golf club. We don't have a golf ball. And that's the whole problem.

It happened in 1969. Nobody's even talked about it. I was in on that deal. The tour players wanted to go on their own. This is, but this whole thing, but live is a different thing. This still was in the United States. The other thing that happened, we were still going to be here. But in 1969, the players, in other words, they had a revolt that wanted to go on their own.

They wanted to run their own tournaments, start their own, you know, their own deal. And the PGA ended up with the RIDER Cup. That's how they ended up with the Riter Cup and they let the players go. Now, the threat was exactly the way the threat was here. The PGA of America told us back then that if we left the PGA and went with this new organization, which is the players organization, we would lose our PGA card. I couldn't afford to do that because I had no options. The PGA was my life.

It still is. I worked very hard to get that card. I worked four years under a Class A professional. And we went to the business school in Chicago. for two weeks. And I got my PGA card. And that was going to be my life income was PGA. I could pick up range balls.

I could give lessons. There's something that I could do. I was the only one that didn't jump ship. I stayed with the PGA. And I was already a major winner. I stayed with the PGA. I didn't go with the players. and I believe Joe Dye, if I'm not mistaken, was the commissioner at the time.

Max Elbin might have been the PGA president, if I'm not mistaken. And they settled it. Everything was fine. They got the writer cup. PGA went on, and it was very successful. This thing now is very difficult. It's a very difficult thing. And everybody's talking about it.

I don't know where it's going. will say this, that if it is true that they have $600 billion in that kitty, I don't know how we're going to compete. I do not know how we're going to compete. I don't. I don't think that, I think when you look at it, they're starting to get better and better players. If they get points, if they, if they're negotiating now, if I'm not mistaken, to get points, in other words, like to play in these tournaments. If that happens, if they go to four rounds at Lill and take that tour to 60 and still pay these players, I can't tell you how many players we're going to lose and good with us.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, the money is not going anywhere. I mean, that's endless. as long as they want to keep a golf tour, whether it's profitable or not, they can do it. They can absolutely drown you. I mean, I mean, it's just, I mean, Jimmy Dunn says you got to follow the money. And he's right. I mean, what can we do?

I mean, we only, we're a nonprofit. We can, we only have so much. And when we run out of money, there's no way we can fight it. Yeah, and I don't know. And you know what I'm afraid of. If they get a network, then, they might not need the tour. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that just stinks for the fan, Lee, because for me personally, it sounds like you kind of feel the same way. I don't blame one of these guys, one lick for going over there, taking that money. There's no guarantee playing golf.

You could be done the next year and all of a sudden you're off tour and things can change, right? So every guy goes over there. I shake their hand. Congratulations, that's awesome. All I want to see as a fan is, there's so many good players,

so much talent right now. I just want to see them play against one another as much as possible. And right now it's really, you only get the majors and you're not even getting all those because some of the guys, you know, they don't qualify for them, but it's like, it's just diluted the amount of events per year where we get genuinely the best in the world from all over the world to compete against one another. I just want to see that. That's what, that's what we're going to, if they go to this point thing, then you're going to get, I think that you'll end up in the majors getting the best in the world. They'll play against each other.

simply because even if they're on live, they're going to be able to play the major championship. But this country loves this game. I love it. I eat it, as you well know. I sleep it. I mean, here, I'm 84 years old. As soon as I cut with you, I'm going to Preston trails and start hitting golf balls.

Who hits golf balls at the age of 64? Nobody. But I do it. And I hit them every day. Not very good. and I'm still thinking that I can find it. You understand what I said? I didn't realize that this game was that heart.

You know, I didn't realize it. I will tell you this, and it's the gospel truth. I played a pro-em a month, five weeks ago, at the National. And it was for scholarship, PGA scholarships, for the kids. and I had a birdie, nine parts, and I shot 82. And I'm in the car, and I'm saying to Daniel, I said, you know what I shot today? I said, I can't believe it.

I said, and I was on the 13th. Now, my mom up there. I'm way up there. And I said, I shot 90. I mean, I shot 82. And Daniel says, what are you complaining? about he said you broke your age that's so good Daniel the little savage this way hey that's what Daniel and I went into business I got to have something to do yeah yeah congrats by the way

on the supermex golf line that's uh that's awesome we got to go check that out um we only got a few minutes left I want to get to the E9 real quick leave these are nine fun questions we like to ask let's just skip the first one go yeah that's fine oh that's good how about this one to start up what's the most you've ever beaten your age by most amount of shots Oh, my, my, um, who, probably eight shots. Nice. That's good. What was that?

Were you in your, like, mid-70s in there and you shot in the 60s? Yeah, that's kind of what I was. Yeah, I was like 77, maybe. Yeah. That's tough to do, but being about eight, not many of that can do that. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Next question. Do you think over the course of time you've sent more dozen roses to your wife or Barbara Nicholas when you first joined the champion's tour. You heard about that? Love it. I got to explain that to people. Well, it was, to Barbara Nicholas, I sent her 30 dozen for the year. She loves you.

Yes, he loves me. Yeah. God bless you. You're trying to keep Jack at home. You didn't want him out there on the champion store and played against you. That's what I told her. When I turned 90 and I won four out of the first five tournaments and senior to her when I turned when I turned 50 in 198 and I specifically called Barbara

Nicholas and I said listen you keep Jack at home I said for every tournament that I play in that he stays home I'm going to send you a dozen roses and I play 38 tournaments in 1990 and I sent her 30 30 dozen roses he only played eight that's beautiful that's a good strategy Hell of a strategy. Where should I start here? I'll give you this one because we brought it up. As you famously said to Tony Jacqueline, you don't have to talk today. You just got to listen, right?

Yeah. Give me one guy. Was there any one guy in particular that you talk to or when you're in your heyday more than usual because you know they really didn't like it? Tony Jacqueline aside. Not really. I try to talk to Jack when we play. But Jack walked too fast.

And I couldn't keep up with it. His stride wasn't long, but it was quick. And, man, after about 100 yards, I mean, I had to slow down. I'd slow down. I never finished the story when I was talking to him because I couldn't keep up with him. Yeah, he was the one I like that. I talked to Mr. Hogan one time. I played with him and champions.

And they asked him, and he says, yeah, he said, we talked a little bit because I was scared to say anything because, you know, he was, he was very meticulous about his golf, you know, the way he played. Yeah, you two opposite ends of the spectrum there in terms of how you operate on the course. All right. Next one. What paid more? Your rookie year on the PGA tour or your royalties from Happy Gilmore? Oh, I think I'm still getting royalties from Happy Gilmore. Yeah, I get mailbox money. I still, I still get it. Yeah, but yeah, probably Happy Gilmore. I got, a pretty lump sum in the beginning, too. Wonderful. That was some wonderful acting.

I loved it. How many takes? How many takes for that line? That's great. See, I told him, I said, that covers all the languages. Yep, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Was that one take? It only take you one take to get that one? Yeah, we, 15 minutes. I did four. Nice.

Well done. In the parking lot. You know where it was? It was in the parking lot at the PGA National in Westbound Beach. Yeah. They call me up. They call me up. And my manager called me up and says,

listen, this guy's doing a golf story. He's a hockey player and he's doing a golf show movie. And he wants you to do four cameos for him. I said, sure. I said, well, where are you going to go? And he said, well, they can go anywhere. So I called him up and they said, well, we need a parking lot because we want to put a clown's head, you know,

and they're like a miniature golf course. That's why they only shot from the waist up. And I said, how about, you know what's a good parking lot? I said, PGA, I said, go to the PGA headquarters. I said, they got a big parking lot there, and that's what we went. Yeah. Those royalties are going to keep coming. That thing ain't going anywhere for a long time.

My next one, going back to your gambling stuff, was there any gambler out in West Texas or somebody that's like a relatively unknown? The best gambler you ever played against back in your hustling days, that was toughest to beat? No, not really. I had, you know, the kid that I, that, could play better than I couldn't put a lick. And he was

young. And he was the assistant pro at Cedar Crest. And his dad was the second Bobby Jones. And it was a kid by the name of Bobby Morland. His father was named Gus Morbin.

And you need to look this guy up one time. I have a book of him. The reason I know him so well, because I was close to the family. But he just about played everything Walker Cup. I mean, he did it all. He did it in the 30s, late 30s, early 30s. And Bobby Morland was the toughest one I ever had to beat. But I would clip him because he putted so bad. He didn't play one round of golf and he didn't three putt at least four greens. Yeah. And it was his home course.

Yeah. You know, when you start three putting greens in your home course, you've got a problem with the stroke. Yeah. Yeah. That is never good. obviously it's not going to happen for a very long time but let's just say you got one last round of golf in you where are you playing it cypress yeah at pebble beach i think cypress point is the is is is is just the most magnificent place i've ever been pine valley i love but i can't walk pine valley because it was um you know uh it it was a lot of sand the way you walk on it uh it's it's very difficult, very difficult golf course to walk. But Cyprus point, in my opinion, for the exception of the 18th hole, the 18th hole is very

weak. They need to redo something with that thing. I tried to get them to lower it. I told them, I said, you need to put the tee up another four feet and you need to lower the green about 15 feet. And I said, then you have something. And but I think people say, what's your favorite hole at Cyprus? I said, the part three.

and they said 16. I said, hell, no, 16. I said, 16 is not a great part three. I said, you got a T and you have to hit over the ocean to a green. That's not any, there's no architecture there. I said, now, 16, you know, I mean, 15, 15. Yeah. Yes.

I'm with you. That is the greatest part three I have ever played. And what do you hit to it? Eight iron, maybe? Yeah, maybe, most. Beautiful hole. I'm with you on that. What a hole.

And the one before it is not too bad. You're 14 up there on the hill. That's a tough part for. I just love Cyprus. I just absolutely adore it. Yep. Tough. Tough one to beat.

This might be a tough one to answer as well, but I always find it interesting to ask because it's not always what you think. But if you had to go back in your career, the one shot you're most proud of, does anything come to mind? Well, I made a million dollars. in Traverse City

with a hole in one. I was a good one. But I'll tell you what. I won the Dunhill Cup at the Wolverine Abbey and a beach sevy. We're playing 36 holes on the last round. And

I was about five or six shots behind it. And I caught him. And I was playing in front of him. And I was so far back that my wife had checked out, taking the luggage, gone to the airport in London to check everything in because we had a rain delay. And I ended up winning the tournament and she wasn't there. And I hit three wood, about 240, two inches from the hole. And I actually pushed it a little bit and it bounced left. It was going in a bunker. And the ball bounced left and ran up on the

green about two inches from the hole. I made Eagle on the last hole. And I made Eagle on the last hole. I'll beat Sevy by a shot. That's sweet. That's awesome. I was pretty proud of that one, yeah. All right, nice one. Last one for me. And I don't know if you'll remember this, but you and I were out at Merido one day,

and we're on the putting green. Yeah. And this kid came sprinting by, and two cops were chasing after him. And everyone knows you and loves you. And when you saw these cops running, you immediately turned around to the cart and put your hands up on the cart and were like, don't shoot, don't shoot. Do you remember what the cop said to you? No, I don't remember.

He said, too much paperwork, Mr. Trevino. We got to go get this guy. I used to get, every time I see a cop, I'd get up against, I put my hands up on the hood. This is so good. Just get it out of the way. I wouldn't do that now because they're, they're a little irritated. You know, they're treated like third-class citizen now, which angers me a lot. I'm with you on that.

But I will never forget that day because you and I were on the putting green, just putting and this kid comes sprinting by apparently he shoplifted and the cops were chasing after it was just some random kid it wasn't like a dude on the golf course oh yeah that was like that was like peter jacobs from tackling the guy nude at the open you remember that yeah yeah that was a pretty good tackle it was good form that was yeah good form yeah big dude well mr chevino you're the greatest in the world man you're the best storyteller there's nobody out there like you now we thank you so much for your time appreciate you coming on god god bless you for your time man thank you very much

All right, that was the one, the only Lee Trevino on subpar. So he's that man, 84 years young and still can just go like he's 25. Sharp is attacked, dude. Got some of the best quotes that are still quoted in the game of golf. Dude, I can't wait to wake up in the morning and hear what I have to say. Lined is one of the best in the world. We use that all the time. But man, how good getting to sit down with him.

Talk a little shop. The gambling stories, I would love to get down there in person, talk with him and just literally do multiple hours on the gambling stories because the Ray Floyd, the Titanic Thompson story, those stuff, those things are incredible, man. And it's just a perfect example, Colt that like these dudes, like they don't exist really anymore in today's game. You know, they don't make them like Lee Trevino anymore nor where they ever will. As I said, I was lucky enough to spend quite a bit of time with him back in Dallas, played with him a few times, practiced with him. And this was back when he was 75, 77 years old. And like,

he still had it. Like his, the sound coming off the club fapes was just incredible. explaining how he hits certain shots around the greens. At 75 years old, he's getting the ball to spin out of a plug lie in the bunker. I'm just like, my God, you're not a human. It's so cool. And just his story of growing up, I mean, with nothing. I mean, nothing. Going from nothing to a six-time major champion being one of the greatest ever,

in my opinion, by far the best personality we have ever seen in the game of golf. I just love it, man. That was a true bucket list for us here at subpar to get him on. Without question, man. And I like talking to him about the technology and the teaching and stuff today, you know, in today's game. Because if you ask me, like, he even says, like, my golf swing wasn't the prettiest, right? And I was like, I would completely disagree. I think he has one of my favorite golf swings ever in the history of golf.

And you hear the way it's impact. Yeah, I do it. It's exactly. He had it exactly where he was looking, one of the greatest shot makers in the history of the game. And you talk, and you hear the way he speaks about Jack Nicholas. Like, he's the goat. He's the greatest ever. Even when they talk to Jack Nicholas, he's like, there's two guys that hit the ball that was, like, special.

He's like, Ben Hogan. and Lee Trevino. Like, there's no bad golf swings that create, you know, they get guys like Jack talking about you like that, man. So just so fun to speak to Mr. Trevino. That was a, that's a true pleasure. Just one of the, one of the OGs, man. Yeah, and his record against Nicholas, I mean, second to not.

Pretty cool. Yeah, he was great against him. Yeah, he battled. By the way, I got some special t-shirts from you for Supermex. Love that. Yeah, send some hats, some t-shirts. I know you're not a hat guy, but the hats are pretty cool. They're the old Lee Trevino style, too, with the logo on it.

Oh. Anything, if I'm going to wear a hat, it'll be for, it'll be for Lee. Happy to do it. All right, let's get to some gambling here. It's football season. It's all we got to bet on. Q School is this week, by the way. Best of luck to everybody out at Q School down there in Jacksonville this week.

My Cowboys dominated the Philadelphia Eagles. It just made me so happy. So, Lee, we had the little controversy in the Chiefs game. Cadarius Tony. Yes. What are you doing, sir? Patrick was not happy. You don't see Mahomes get too pissed off like that too often.

the man was heated after that. By the way, like, I don't know. He was off sides, of course. And I guess he was lined up multiple times. I know they're calling it more this year, but just like a little nudge from the ref. Like, we're talking about inches here. Come on, man.

Yeah, but it was a penalty. If it's my team, if I'm the Chiefs fan, I'd be pissed off as hell if I'm the other team. I'd be like, look, dude, you're off sides. What do you want us to do? He was pretty far off sides. And all the rest, I mean, and every time we see it,

football guys, I mean, the receiver points, checks and says, am I good? And he gave it a point, but he didn't pay attention to what the ref said. The ref probably would have told him to back up a little bit. He's having a rough go this year in KC. Not great. Not a great year for Mr. Tony. No, it is not.

He got off to a rough start. And by the way, it's going to lead to one of Taylor Swift's newest songs, by the way, from what I'm being told. Because obviously, she was in the building once again. And because of this mess up, obviously, the girlfriend of Travis Kelsey. We got a new lyric for you. You ready? Feed me. From the newest Taylor Swift.

song. You said you love me, but that was a bunch of baloney, because you let me down. You're such a cadarius, Tony. Is that the new? That's platinum. Triple platinum. Yes. Stamp it. Yeah, that's what's going to happen. You're going to fuck around and get Taylor Swift writing lyrics about you. You keep messing up games like this. And that's a problem. You do not want that smoke with the, with the Swifties. And by the way, one of the greatest plays ever, too. I mean, for Kelsey, just to look up and see that. I know. It's just never going to go. It hadn't worked out like that. But I mean, damn. All right, well, let's get an NFL pick in there, see if we can make some money this week. The only reason I'm taking this game is because they're telling me they got a chance.

Right before I came here, Monday Night Countdown was on, and I saw the Chicago Bears have a 1% chance of making the playoffs, and that's all I need. So you're saying there's a chance. They're going up against the Cleveland Browns this week. They're coming off a big win against the Detroit Lions. The Cleveland Browns, I don't know who's going to play quarterback, because Joe Flacco just got, had to go back to the practice squad, even though they said he was going to be the starter the rest of the year. So I don't even know who's going to play quarterback for the Browns. And the Bears are catching three points.

Give me the Bears and that 1%. No, 1%. Time to make history for Chicago. I thought they went from tanking to now. They got a 1% chance to make the playoffs. They're kind of in that middle ground right now. But my pick, Colt, I'm going with the team we just talked about because I think they are pissed. They are out for blood.

Give me the Kansas City Chiefs, minus 9 and a hook at New England. Who, New England, I'm not sure if the Patriots are, if they're officially tanking, they're on record saying we're tanking, we stink. But they sure has helped play like they're tanking. This is a bad spot to catch the Chiefs pissed off and actually needing to win some games for the first time in a while in terms of their playoff spot. So give me Kansas City in a boat race at New England. I don't know. They just took down the Steelers with Zappie, a quarterback.

I know. I don't know what they're doing either, dude. They either tank or don't tank. Just don't be in the middle, you know, get a dude or don't. All right. Well, here we go. But once again, thanks to Lee Trevino for sitting down with us. being so gracious with this time.

That was one of my favorite interviews we've ever done. A lot of fun. We got another special one for you, but you have to stay tuned to next week's subpar.