Suggestible - Greenland and Men Writing Women

Episode Date: December 3, 2020

Suggestible things to watch, read and listen to. Hosted by James Clement @mrsundaymovies and Claire Tonti @clairetonti.This week’s Suggestibles:GreenlandHillbilly ElegyMeridith’s ‘Men Writing Women’ ThreadGeena Davis’ Guardian StudyThe Santa Clause CoGElliot Page’s AnnouncementLove is LoveSend your recommendations to [e-mail], we’d love to hear them.You can also follow the show on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook @suggestiblepod and join our ‘Planet Broadcasting Great Mates OFFICIAL’ Facebook Group. So many things. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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That's right. I'm Claire. Jane's here also. We are married. We like suggesting you stuff. We do. We do. What are we doing this week, Claire?

What kind of, do you want to start off with that thread in the Facebook group or do you want to do that towards the end What are we doing this week, Claire? What kind of, do you want to start off with that thread in the Facebook group or do you want to do that towards the end? Maybe we'll do that towards, we'll do the recommendations first and then we'll go back to that. Yeah, then we'll get stuck in. Yeah, yeah, that sounds good. I think you should go first. Are you sure? Yeah, just before we begin, how was your week? It was really okay. What about you? Really okay. All right. That's pretty good. Yeah. We were talking about this today, but we're like, why are we supposed to be so tired? We're so tired. And then we're like, oh yeah, we've got a baby. Yes. We've got a baby that wakes up like twice in the night.

A five-year-old. It's a lot. That's probably why we're tired. I'm feeling, I don't know if anyone, look, 2020 has been bloody exhausting anyway, but I'm just feeling old. Like I'm 35. You look it. But, yeah, I feel old. You look it. Like I've suddenly stepped through the looking glass and realised why our parents acted the way they did.

Yeah, why we hate our parents, now we know. No, we love them, but I understand them more because everybody is tired. Everyone's tired all the time. Everyone's tired all the time. And I just think that I wish to not be. It would be nice. Well, we shouldn't have had kids too late. Yeah, I know.

Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube or the baby back in the bod. No, no. Oh, God, please don't put it back up there. That would be awful. That would be awful. Don't do it. She weighs like 10 kilos now. I think no. God, please don't put it back up there. That would be awful. That would be awful. Don't do it. She weighs like 10 kilos now. I think there's a reason people don't do that.

One of my friends did say having a baby in there is more comforting because she feels like the baby's just in there. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to feed it. It just stays there. It's all automated. It's all automated. I don't know about that.

How do you feel about that? Yeah. Yeah, I much prefer baby out of bodge. Well, then I can do stuff with the baby. Correct. I'm not the sole person trying to keep this leech alive. It's leeching the very life essence out of me. And also, she's pretty squishy and gorgeous.

Like a leech. All right, let's get into it. Let's start talking about our kids. So the first movie might come as a bit of a shock that I'm talking about it because I notoriously, I despise disaster movies. I don't like any of them. Like I know Twister's like, I know I've said like a rubbish Twister before. Twister's actually, it's pretty good.

It's bloody great. It's got Alan Hunt. It's got Bill Paxton. I will watch anything Alan Hunt is in. It's got Philip Seymour Hoffman. Yeah, she's amazing. I just think she's so mad about you. Yeah, she's great.

Classic show. Something's Gotta Give. What's the one with? No, no. What's the one with? With Jack Nich about you. Yeah, she's great. Classic show. Something's got to give. What's the one with. No, no. What's the one with. With Jack Nicholson. And that's not something's got to give. Like Jack Nicholson's like, I'm grumpy, but you'll want to kiss me,

even though I'm 80 years old. Yeah, exactly which is, as we will get to later, another trope. Yeah, absolutely. A very familiar, well-worn trope for men versus women, men being old and grumpy and women being, oh, but I can see past him to his heart of gold. Yeah. Like you kiss him.

I'm going to break through this exterior. It takes me months and months to wear him down. And he'll die in four years, but this is what I want. Anyway, Jerry Butler is in a new End of the World movie. His last End of the World movie, there may have been one in between. It was called Geostorm. I'm Jerry Butler. I'm very manly and bearded. I'm very. end of the world movie or there may have been one in between it was called uh geostorm i'm jerry butler i'm very manly and and bearded i'm very and i'm there's a moment where the guy's like

where you're from and he's like i'm from wisconsin or where he's supposed to be from and he's like no where you're really from and i'm like jerry butler he knows you don't you know you're from scotland or if he's supposed to be from my favorite jerry butler movies was when he tries to sort of put on american accent but he but he's just like, well, fuck him, whatever. But anyway, when we're watching it, you're like, Jerry Butler's really attractive, and I'm like, I don't understand. Like, I can't read you at all. I'm like,

I understand that he's good looking. Like, I get it. But like, him compared to like, I can't like, you look at Bradley Cooper and go, nah, he looks like a weasel or whatever. I don't know what you think of Bradley Cooper. I don't think he looks like a weasel. Okay, here's the thing. Ostensibly, I'm really into ugly dudes. Oh, what was that like?

I don't know what that was. I'm in a very silly mood. Yeah, but. No, no. But then, because then I was like, is it the 300 thing? Because he's got all the big muscles. It's the PSI love you. So it's not so much his face.

I mean, it is. But it's like his spirit and energy has a lot to do with it, right? You probably like that one where I think it's called like think like a man or men like us or men, men, men, men, men. What do women want? No, that's the one. It's one of those things where Katherine Heigl is a TV executive and he's got a talk show where he's like a man and he's telling women how it is.

No, I don't like him in that one. No, really, that one really annoys me. No, I like him in Pierce, I love you. But the thing about it is he's quite rough around the edges. That's what it is because I don't know, like, look, a lot of women are into Brad Pitt, I've heard. Yeah, that's another one where you're like you're not really big on Brad Pitt. Nah.

No, because too pretty. Too, like's another one where you're like you're not really big on Brad Pitt. Nah. No, because too pretty. Too, like, too pretty. Even now? Yeah. Nah, I'm not into it. Okay. Nah. And also I think something about him, yeah, a bit too polished kind of annoys me too.

Like we had a discussion about this recently that who am I talking about? Oh, look, it's Elle. I literally just said she's been quiet for ages. I literally said the baby monitor would shine. This doesn't even happen on other nights really, does it? No, it really doesn't. It's only I feel like she knows that we've left the building. She probably does.

No, Bradley Cooper. So right, there's Bradley Cooper of like Slicked Back. What's the show where they all go crazy? Yeah, Slicked Bradley Cooper, right? Those guys go crazy. And then there's the show where they all go crazy? Yeah, Slicked, Bragley Cooper, right? Those guys go crazy. And then there's, yeah, they go so crazy. But you'd like him in the one where he sings with Lady Gaga. Correct.

Because he's like, it's like a different kind of energy. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And he's kind of like, he makes stuff and he's like a musician and there's something like that. Yeah, yeah, a bit of like, not the bad boy, but just that he's a bit rough around the edges. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's got depth as opposed to the guy in The Hangover

who's just like Vegas, baby. Yeah, that's the other part of it. I think it's that he's got depth. And Jared Butler, Jerry Butler. Jerry Butler. Always plays characters with the kind of rough around the edges depth. I genuinely like him. I think he's great.

And even in the things that I don't like, I always like him. I think he's great. And even in the things that I don't like, I always like him. He's in the movie, the one about the dragons we did recently, Reign of Fire, where dragons take over the world or whatever. I fucking love that movie and it's probably not very good, but I love it. But, yeah, I completely understand. There's a great celebrity's read me tweets where one of them is like, Jerry Butler, why do you do all these Shitty movies and he's just laughing He's like I don't know I just do them

Because he does them so well There's one called Laura Biding Citizen Where I can't remember something happens to his family Like his wife dies or his kids are in an accident or whatever So he just sets up all these booby traps For all the people who wronged him And there's literally a scene where like a Senator or something goes to pick up her phone

And he's rigged it so when she answers it, it shoots her through the head. Oh, that's terrible. And I'm like, this movie's insane. There's another movie called Gamer where – this sounds made up but it's not – where it's a world where video gaming has got to the point where you can take a felon, a criminal, and you put like a headset on them and then you can run them through like a video game at home or run them through like a tournament, but it's like a real person and he's like the guy with the gun like running around. It's crazy shit.

But he's great. He's really good. And anyway, the movie I want to talk about, it's called Greenland. It's directed by Rick Roman War, stars Jerry Butler and Marina Baccarin. And I don't know if I say her name right, but she's from, like, Firefly, and she's also from, like, Gotham and a bunch of other stuff. She's from the Deadpool movies. But it's about John Garrity and his estranged wife and their young son.

They embark on a perilous journey to find sanctuary as a planet killing comet hurdles towards Earth, right? This is, like, not my bag at all. Like I'm sick of these movies. I'm like 2012, the day the Earth got frozen, whatever, any of them. I don't like them. And it's kind of low budget. It's like $35 million, which is not a lot for a movie like this

because normally like the cities are falling down. But it handles that really well, I feel. Like it does like there's bits and pieces of like the wider world, but it's not all about like the buildings falling down, you know what I mean, and none of that stuff. but what really works about this movie for me is like and it's probably also at the point where i'm in my life it's the characterization of the people in it because there's moments where like the family together and they're trying to get to this bunker and you know they're getting knocked back and then they're getting separated they come back together it's got

it's got a really good ebb of ebb and flow of like tension and knows when to kind of like give you to kind of like give you a little bit of hope and then like something perilous then happens again, you know what I mean? And it kind of does that all the way to the end. It's terrific. It's really good. It's got like 100% on Rotten Tomatoes, which I was also really surprised by because it's not, you know, like Citizen Kane, a movie I haven't seen. But it's just it's an excellent example of this kind of movie done really well.

And you were even watching. You caught most of it, didn't you? Yeah, I normally go to bed and you turn a movie on and I'm like, another thriller disaster movie about the end of the world. But I also, I don't know if you know this about me, I love disaster movies. I didn't know that. I mean, I'm not an expert by any means. I don't watch them all the time.

Sounds like you're an expert. But I don't like that. I mean, I'm not an expert by any means. I don't watch them all the time. Sounds like you're an expert. But I don't like paranormal spooky movies and really gory war kind of movies. But there is something about natural disaster movies that I find fascinating. I don't know. And it may be less terrifying because it's not about human beings being awful, though obviously that can happen as a by-product. Definitely part of that, yeah. Yeah, but the villain is not like an entity.

It's more that it's kind of fascinating to me, that idea that the world could become completely unstable and unlivable for us. And also possibly that feels a little like close to the bone. It's a bit true. And I think that's also part of why this movie is so good is because even though it's a comet, it's not like a global warming situation. But, you know, it could happen.

It has happened. Yeah, well, that's happened to the dinosaur as my five-year-old always talks about. Yeah, and there's not even like a moment where they try to like shoot the comet down because it's not one thing. It's like a series of smaller meteors, meteor strikes or whatever. So it's just basically like we need to get to safety in this when we have X amount of time and it's just us kind of, you know.

And I think what it does really well as well is A, it's the chemistry between the husband and wife and their son. But there's a lot of close-up shots. The actors do a really good job of putting you in their shoes. And they make choices that you would make. Yes. All the way along, they're making choices that you're like, well, yeah, I would try and do that.

And, yeah, I would do that. And the kid's really good. Yeah, he is. He's really, yeah, he is really good. He's really believable. Yeah, he is. And he doesn't try and be too cutesy or anything. No, he's not at all.

He just seems like a regular kid. and that in itself is what is so heartbreaking about it because it feels like it could be you running for your life. The moment where like there's a moment where the kid gets separated and then, you know, when the other people have him and there's the moment and he just like breaks down. I'm not going to spoil too much of it. It's on streaming.

You can get it. But he's good. It's on streaming. You can get it. But he's good. It's really good. I mean, I sound surprised, and I am. Yeah. But I don't even know. It was one of those things where I was like, yeah, I guess I'll watch this, whatever, and it was just like very enthralling

and captivating to me. Yeah, it was. It was really good. I really enjoyed it, and I always loved it. I sound insane. I know. Maybe it's not good, but maybe I'm just tired. Gerard Butler's wife.

Marina Baccarin. Yeah, she's so great. She's great. Yeah, she's really good. Yeah, you talked about that to me a minute ago. Yeah, she's so good. There's a moment as well with her in particular in the car. You know what I'm talking about?

Oh, totally. I don't want to spoil it. But yeah, I know she does that so well. Yeah, okay. Oh, but also does a really good job of highlighting the good things in human nature as well, even as the world is ending. And there are bad people in the movie. There are, yeah. But it does a good job of being like, no, people will still go out of their way

to help people they don't know, which I thought was really nice. I know. I really loved that moment, and this is a slight spoiler, but not really because it starts at the beginning of the film when they're talking to one of the military personnel because they won't let them on the plane that's getting to safety. And her character goes ballistic as you would in that situation when you're trying to stand up for your son and for the lives of your family.

And I thought the officer played it so well where she just says, well, my family can't get on and I hear you and I understand but there's nothing I can do. I'm still here doing this anyway. And that made you really go, yes, that felt authentic. It did. Because we've met people like that. We've met nurses and doctors like that.

And in crisis situations there are some people who become really aggressive and shut you down in those positions of authority and then there are other people who become really aggressive and shut you down in those positions of authority. And then there are other people that are so compassionate and empathetic. Like there's a moment where a nurse helps them and gives the diabetic medicine to the little boy and mother and just gives them this big hug. And in that moment, I just thought about all of the healthcare workers at the forefront of COVID at the moment and what we're going through and how, what a difference when someone actually cares for you and cares about you, what a difference that tiny, it might only be a five minute interaction, you know, someone bringing you an extra cup of tea or giving you a hug or something.

And it's happened to me too. There's just been some amazing nurses who've given me a hug at just the time I needed it or an extra cup of tea or a blanket. Or just to stop and sit with you for a minute, you know. Yeah, and it's a tiny section out of their day but it can mean the world to someone. So those are the kind of things I loved about that. Which is why they should be paid much more. Correct.

Exactly right. Just quickly, that bit you're talking about where the woman's like, I'm here and my family's not here and I'm still doing this to get these people to safety. That did for a while. It wasn't just like a general being like, well, these are the rules and this is from the, it was like, I understand what you're saying, but what do you want me to do? Like, I shouldn't even be here and this is, you know, I didn't even think about that.

But yeah, that felt very genuine. Anyway, we should move on. We should move on. We've talked about the movie Greenland for too long. It's a great movie, though. You should watch it. But it's the dialogue. That's what I always talk about, the dialogue where the characters

are complex and not one thing or another makes a difference. We can wait for clean water solutions. Or we can engineer access to clean water. We can acknowledge Indigenous cultures. Or we can learn from Indigenous voices. We can demand more from the earth. Or we can learn from Indigenous voices. We can demand more from the earth. Or we can demand more from ourselves. At York University, we work together to create positive change for a better tomorrow. Join us at yorku.ca slash write the future. Okay. What do you got? So this is interesting.

It's such a strange juxtaposition. I want to talk about the film Hillbilly Elegy. I was really interested for you to talk about this because people hate this movie. I know. Okay. So for lots of reasons, I had no idea about, I'd heard the name, I'd heard that it was a memoir by J.D. Vance, but I'd never read it and I just had no, I'd heard nothing about the film, no reviews, anything.

So I just put it on on Netflix and was immediately really absorbed in it and really enjoyed it. And I was so kind of shocked when you came in and said, oh, this movie, everybody hates it. And I was like, oh, God, oh, no, I don't know anything about anything. And then I realised that goes to show you that, I mean, I think part of the reason I enjoyed it is because I'll go into what it's about first in case people don't know.

So the memoir that it's based on by J.D. Vance and the movie itself is about three generations of the Vance's and Appalachian family. Yes. Most noticeably, it focuses on Vance's relationship with his troubled mother and her ongoing addiction to heroin, along with the love and care of his supportive grandmother and his eventual kind of rise out of poverty into Harvard Law School. And it begins with him, the film itself begins with him at Harvard Law School and then tracks his story back in time. So how he got there basically. I think what I've come to realise is because I don't have any of that background knowledge about the reality of what it's like

to live in middle America and where the sort of film is set, you know, this quote-unquote white working class of America, the real America, all of that stuff. The heartland. The heartland, you know, and I didn't realise either that this memoir had kind of become one of those kind of symbols of Trumpism as well and held up as quite a story of, you know, speaking to the heart of white working class people in America.

I hadn't realised that either. Oh, so do you think that factored into people being like this is a bunch of bullshit or whatever? Yeah, I do. I do. And look, I see that like a lot of the criticism is because I read a whole lot of reviews and a lot of the criticism is, and I do agree with this, that it's too kind of I guess earnest or something.

Like it washes over it a bit. Like it's not gritty enough and that there are sort of they say that it's kind of boring and I just didn't find it boring. I found it really moving and I cried. Yeah, right, yeah. Yeah, Amy Adams plays Beverly Vance, JD's mother, and then Glenn Close plays Bonnie Vance, who is JD's grandmother, and Gabriel Basso plays JD himself, and then Owen Astelsus,

I think I've said his name wrong, plays the young JD, and I think he's great. Owen is just so lovable but also kind of confused and I just thought he was really, really good. I really enjoyed Glenn Gloss's depiction. Yes, I heard people weren't loving Glenn. No, people hated it. They thought she wore a wig.

They thought it was Oscar bait as well. Yeah, I've heard that part. Do you think that's true? Look, now in hindsight I look back and I think, well, obviously there were some, I think part of the criticism has also been around hillbilly stereotyping and how, you know, a lot of the well-trodden paths around hillbillies and the Appalachian culture was kind of walked through

without going deeper and so it was a little bit too surface level. But I just thought Glenn Close was brilliant. I thought she was quite unrecognisable in that character. I thought she was really badass and quite funny. I thought she came from a really traumatic background and I thought Amy Adams played this character of a heroin addict. I mean, they're both great, yeah. They're both really great and I just thought they were excellent

and I really believed the story. And to me, though,. And I just thought they were excellent. And I really believed the story. And to me though, I think I thought about it now. And the reason why I enjoyed it so much was maybe because I don't have a stake in the game about any of that American politics. And I wasn't watching it from that perspective. I wasn't watching it so much for what it says about poverty in America either, or the white working class. What it spoke to me about was what happens to women over generations, particularly women who don't come from privileged backgrounds. And you get stuck in that like poverty cycle.

Because Glenn Close's character gets pregnant at 13, has to leave the mountains, you know, her home, and goes with her eventual partner or husband into the main kind of city and has to kind of then eke out an existence from there. So she has a baby at 13. That's crazy. So when you think about the limiting of her options from that point forward, and she's clearly such a funny, smart, gritty person.

Yeah. And obviously you find out through the film that her relationship with her husband was pretty traumatic and that that, you know, quite violent in parts. And obviously they don't go deeply into that. There's not a lot of really highly confronting scenes, which I think is probably another one of the criticisms, but I thought that didn't matter.

It's directed by Ron Howard, is that right? Yeah, it's directed by Ron Howard and the screenplay is written by. He directed your favourite movie, Solo, a Star Wars story. I know, my favourite film. It's the screenplay is by Vanessa Taylor who wrote The Shape of Water, which is one of my favourite films, and Divergent. And she was also a – Divergent the –

No, that's not one of my favourite films. The Shape of Water is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Divergent the Shailene Woodley teen whatever. Yeah, and she was also a script doctor on Aladdin. Oh. Yeah. Sorry.

Your script has passed away. There was nothing we could do. That wasn't a good joke. No, I thought it was funny. I thought it was very funny. Look, I guess what I wanted to say is it's more to me about intergenerational trauma, how that gets passed down and what happens to women's spirits because Amy Adams' character, so Bev in real life, because it's a true story, became pregnant at 18.

And she graduated from high school second in her class out of 400 students. So the story kind of is told that she was this bright, you know, kind of woman who was really going to take her family somewhere. And slowly over time it got beaten out of her basically, partly probably due to her own difficult childhood and drug addiction as well. She becomes a nurse and is addicted to painkillers, which is obviously a huge epidemic in America as well. So it does look at a little bit at that, not in great detail. It also shows how Amy Adams' character Bev sort of believes

that her only way out of where she is is to find a man and she keeps dating man after man after man in difficult relationships. They keep breaking down. She keeps trying to get married to someone else that he'll bring them out and she even says to JD at one point, you know, he was making fun of her in a way for, you know, constantly being in relationship after relationship and she just loses it in the car and drives super fast

and almost kills them. But she's screaming at that time, I'm doing it for you. You don't understand. I'm doing this for you to try and get you and your sister out of where we're at and get us somewhere better. And so for something in the culture, she's absorbed something in the culture that rather than, you know, her trying to better her own self and get her own self out of the situation, she should be trying to find a man to do that for them. Yeah, right, okay. You know, in a way.

Anyway, and that to me is that kind of misogyny that gets absorbed subconsciously by women too and just how difficult time as well happens to people, you know. Amy Adams' character goes back and forward in time and that broke my heart because you see her as this sort of woman in her 60s, 50s, 60s. Is it the same she's doing both? Yeah. Yeah.

And they do a great job, I think, of depicting what has happened to her over time. She sort of becomes this heroin addict and why she gets to the point that she does. And then Glenn Close takes JD in and decides that she's going to take over his life and force him to get an education and, you know, give himself as much of a chance as he possibly can to better his life. And I thought there was an interesting theme there which we've looked at when we look at poverty that in order to sort of I guess move forward or become wealthier or have more power and more privilege,

more autonomy in your life, you actually have to distance yourself often from your family, which is one of the reasons that people find it really difficult to move. Yeah, because you get pulled back in. Yeah, because you get pulled back into your community. We've lived in communities like that. You get pulled back into it. Yeah, because you have to turn your back so people think you're, you know,

being high and mighty. Oh, too good for us now. Yeah, too good for us. And you often then have to actually completely shut out all those people from your life until you have reached where you need to be and you've got enough strengths to come back and help them. But while you're on that journey, you often have to shut the door

behind them, you know, and that's what's so difficult and they explore that theme too. What do you think about that though? Like do you think that's true? Yeah, I do. Well, I mean studies I've read as well I think that is true. How would you feel like you doing that though? Not that you have to but do you know what I mean?

What if you had, you know? I mean it's heartbreaking. Yeah. It's heartbreaking and it's why often people don't end up moving to go to university or because there's a fear that tall poppy syndrome you know yeah you in order to do something new and different like that you you people get threatened in your life and some people you do have to say goodbye to because they're yeah oh totally trying to stop you from leaving them definitely not in my family

but there's definitely people that I've like just kind of slowly like removed myself from because I'm like I can't fucking, you've got a whole other thing that I don't want to deal with, which sounds terrible, but it's just like you feel like they're kind of, sometimes I say white. I don't mean like they're a bad influence on you. That's what I mean. Yeah.

I don't mean like I'm better than you and I'm leaving. I mean as in like you're fucking bumming me out with your negativity. Yeah, and I think that's often and this is not in every community because obviously these are all generalisations. But I do think that when you're looking at intergenerational poverty, the idea of leaving everything you know because in order for you to, say, get a university degree, you'll end up speaking in a different way to your family.

Yeah. You know, you'll end up learning so much more than your parents and that's a different dynamic then too because they're no longer the people that know everything in your life. You know more than them. It's interesting too, isn't it, because the immigrant story is sort of very different to this in some ways because there's also that narrative of immigrant parents wanting their children to have better jobs

than they did and then better jobs again and, you know, working in that way too and that's a whole different dynamic. And so obviously these are all generalisations. But I do think it's a really interesting and difficult thing and you see that a lot in your life when people are trying to better themselves. Even just I think I've heard people comment about, say, weight loss for instance.

Totally. And you might have friends who are enablers who all sit around and have beers and, you know. Or like you get a different haircut. People are like, nice haircut. You're too good for not having a haircut. No, totally. Yeah, it's true with weight loss and it's true with drinking as well. It's like just have a drink or whatever.

And I'm big on like fuck off, I don't want to drink. Like if I want to drink, I'll have a drink. Like you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. But I think that's because you're going against the grain and people, some people, not all people, but some people find it frightening. Yeah, most people are like whatever. Yeah, but there are some people who then find you're not wanting to drink

or you're wanting to eat better or you're exercising every day as a comment about themselves. And it depends on how they feel about themselves, you know, as to whether or not they're supportive of you or whether they might be sort of critical. Anyway, I actually just thought it was really enjoyable. Okay, well, I might check that out because, look, I do like Ron Howard despite the movie Solar.

I don't think it's – And you like The Shape of Water. He didn't direct that. No, no. Vanessa wrote it though. Yes, yes, yes. I did like The Shape of Water, yes. Yeah.

Maybe I will check it out. That's interesting. I had another recommendation. I might save it for next week because we're going to talk about that male author's writing women thread that Meredith Semmelbeck put up in the Planet Broadcasting Great Mates group which sparked a huge discussion. It's actually – I'll just read the post if you don't mind, Claire. I would love you to.

And it segues quite well from what we were just talking about. It does. Both of the things we talked about actually. So this made me think about Claire's discussion on Suggestible and what she's posted here. It's a picture from Queen's Gambit where the main character from that, it says male author is trying to show a woman in rock bottom and it says she's scantily clad and she's sitting and she's got a can of beer

and she's smoking a cigarette but she's still looking very, very. Her hair is pristine. Her makeup is pristine and perfect. And it's all very sexy and evocative at the same time, you know what I mean? But it says, I want to hear other examples you found on TV and from the May you think, yeah, dude definitely wrote that because it's ridiculous to think that a woman behaved,

talked and think that way. I'd love to hear from women in the group too but non-women are also welcome to chime in. So there's like at the moment there's 379 comments on this And it's just It's a fascinating thread I think I've read all of it Going through it

I'm not in the group as much as I would like to be Because we've got other things going on But I love discussions like this The top one from Dan is the killing joke Where that story is largely centered around the Joker shoots Batwoman like through the spine and then Batman like has to go and revenge her. And that's not even a bad example of it or the worst example in comics because there's a bunch of them that's called, there's a term called fridging

where if they need to motivate a male character, they'll kill a female character. There was an example of that from when Green Lantern was introduced and then they introduced his girlfriend and then in like the second issue he got home and found her like dead and stuffed in the fridge. So like she only existed to like give him the motivation. Yeah, which is so common and as you go throughout Thread, that's absolutely true.

So often women are only seen in relation to the men in the story as mothers or daughters or as the love interest or as a way to move the story along. Yeah, absolutely right. Totally. I think, yeah, Danny Wallace has talked about how the difference between Wonder Woman and Justice League and it's really true because if you look at the way that Gal Gadot was shot in Wonder Woman, which is directed by a woman, and Justice League,

and even Batman v Superman, it's very different. And you also look at the Amazons. Like the Amazons in Wonder Woman, they're mostly covered up and whatever and they look more like warriors. But in the other versions, they've got like midriff tops and like little shorts and stuff. And that also exists in the other one. But if you just watch, they're very, they're shot very differently.

Well, I mean, it's even like that stupid Jurassic World movie. Yeah. Where the female character is just running around in heels the whole time. Like you would take them off. You would take them off. And you wouldn't be walking around a dinosaur park. No. How do you even walk through grass?

Like it doesn't even make any sense. It just doesn't make any sense. Well, they fixed it in the second one, fifth one, whatever it is. This one I wanted to ask you about because this is – so I've just taken over this thread. I didn't mean to. No, no. Is there anything you want to talk about in particular?

I have a couple of things. Yeah, yeah. This is a long episode. That's all right. One of them was the initial post, I just love this conversation. I just love it. And I loved listening to all the different areas in which women have felt just like me, which made me feel less alone and that people often see this.

Just even the initial image from the Queen's Gambit really bugged me. I said it was weird, right? Didn't I? from The Queen's Gambit really bugged me. I said it was weird, right? Didn't I? Yeah, yeah. And one of the reasons it does bug me is that it shouldn't be a woman at her rock bottom.

They should have written it as a human being at their rock bottom because women are just as capable of sitting there like 20 kilos heavier or whatever or like with, you know, cigarettes hanging out of their mouth, crumbs all over them in their worstest, most disgusting T-shirt, you know? It's normally done for comedy, right? It's like in a rom-com and then they get like the can of whipped cream and they're like, which is not, that's also like.

Yeah, like in Legally Blonde where she's getting all the chocolates out of the chocolate box. Like that's not a real thing though, right? Women don't sit on the couch with a can of whipped cream, I assume. There was one person commented in the thread about how women don't sit there with a whole punnet of ice cream and eat your way through the whole. It would melt. Yeah, it would become ice cream soup.

You go back to the fridge. Yeah, exactly right. Whereas it's more likely to be bread that women are going to put donuts on. Which I think, you know, carbs, pasta. That's really true. Which I thought that was a really interesting comment. This is an interesting one from Jolene. It says, though I like the show, I feel like the wife in the later season

of Jonathan Creek is a perfect example of my least favourite female character stereotype. I really, really hate the trope that women are a fun killer and the person who wants the male protagonist to stop them from doing whatever they enjoy. Yeah, that's very common. It's always like, boys, what are you up to? Stop mucking around and whatever.

Yeah. I get that all the bloody time. It's not intentional. No. And I didn't even really notice it until you pointed it out to me. Yeah, it really bugs me. And Jess from Do Go On gets it quite a lot too. She's like, oh, Jess, keep those boys in line.

And what I find so funny about like Jess and also me is often we're the ones that are like mucking around or being silly or not keeping things in line and or vice versa. It changes. The dynamic changes. But there's memes in the group that are often like Claire's telling off James and Mesa. James and Mesa are in the corner making a big sandwich.

Yeah, exactly. Like what are you boys doing in there? And look, part of it is I guess from the outside it looks like I am the kind of mothering person of the planet broadcasting because I do, you know, a lot of the behind the scenes stuff. But I also, but it's also a projection too, I guess. Well, we make all of the decisions like together. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And with Mason obviously. And with Mason as well. Yeah, exactly. But like there's not a thing where you're like, I demand you do it this way because that's too silly. And I'm like, no, I want to smear pasta all over my computer. Yeah, and I don't like walk into the room off and go,

what are you boys up to? Get back to work. Yeah, but it is quite funny that I've't like walk into the room off and go, what are you boys up to? Get back to work. Yeah, but it is quite funny that I've sort of fallen into that. I mean anybody who listens to this knows that you derail the show. Constantly. More than anybody, yeah. Talking about celebrities pooping. Yeah, look, and, you know, and, yeah, that's the thing I think.

Women. That's funny. Peaky Rios talked about that thing. You talked about it like it's bread. Yeah, that's what I was saying. I read it from the thread. That's funny. So I didn't use her name. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it totally is. It's bread. I actually found a little study done by Gina Davis in 2018. I love Gina Davis. Yeah, totally. All right. So this is done by the Gina Davis Institute on Gender in Media

and the NGO Plan International. And it was published in The Guardian in 2018. It analysed the 56 top grossing films of 2018 in 20 countries, North America, Scandinavia, Africa, Asia, Latin America and Europe. Of the characters and leadership positions, it found that women and girls were four times more likely than men to be shown wearing revealing clothing, nearly twice as likely to be shown as partially nude, and four times more likely to be shown completely naked.

Nice. Research also revealed that twice as many men appeared in the 56 films and they spoke twice as much as women. Yeah. I mean it's not surprising, is it? It's more just depressing. I think a big part of that is, yeah, because a lot of the time they're the ones making the decision from executives. Correct, because now what it says is male characters were shown

as being more effective and more respected when in leadership positions in films while female presidents and prime ministers were portrayed as struggling with the job. Oh, yeah. Where female characters were portrayed as strong, it's usually in the home. You know, strong mothers. Strong mothers making a bloody galva.

They do it all. They do it all. Correct. Exactly. Geena Davis was the president, wasn't she, in some show where it's like Geena Davis is the president. Yeah, she was for sure. This is one of the ones that depressed me the most.

Here we go. Again, almost half of the characters across the films analysed, which collectively earned $21 billion at the box office, were white. Yeah. Almost half. Shock. Only one of the 60 female leaders in the films was LGBTQ. None of the films were directed by women. None. LGBTQ. None of the films were directed by women.

None. Yeah. None of the films. If you look at like the awards at the Oscars as well for, you know. Yeah, it's totally, yeah. There's not many. Only a quarter had at least one female producer. Only a quarter.

And one in ten had at least one woman on the writing team. One in ten. And so there you go. That's 10%. And that's where it's coming from because we're doing the Tim Allen Santa Claus trilogy at the moment and it speaks to like a trend in the 90s. And I think it's because of executives like at higher ups who were ignoring their kids because they're big shot Hollywood executives.

So many moves are like the dad's too busy at work and he can't get home to play baseball with his son or whatever and his son's like, Dad's not here. And the mum's like, Don't worry, he'll be here sooner. There's so many movies that are like that. Yeah. Like, you know, it's like Hook was obviously the Santa Claus. There's a bunch of them that are just about like dads who are like,

why aren't you being at home more? And there's also that trope that's in the Santa Claus where the wife divorces the dad because the dad works too much and then the wife marries a new guy who's always like a psychiatrist or someone quite boring with glasses who's like not fun but very calm. Yeah, we talk specifically about that. And it gets even more, and we'll talk about this in upcoming episodes, but in the Santa Claus too, he has to get a wife to keep his Santa Claus thing

and it just opens up this – it's insane. It's insane universe. You should watch the videos. But yeah, it's so weird. But Elaine Grey talks about the West Wing, how it's like Aaron Sorkin has never actually met a woman and that's something that you've talked about recently. So frustrating.

The first season is – I really thought watching it in the 90s that like those were really women characters that were really strong and interesting and intelligent and then I've watched it since and been so depressed. Yeah. There's this one from Crystal. It says, no specific examples but I hate the trope of the cool girl who unlike normal girls were like wings and burgers

and just generally stuff her face. Yeah, no, that is a normal lady. That's what I feel. Like the people that I, maybe it's not every example, but women just eat regular food. I know. Well, see, this is the thing, right? I recently had a listener write in who explained he was a writer

of films and TV and wanted to know how we could better write female characters and I really struggled to reply. And we said you can't. No, I just haven't replied to him yet. I will because I felt I didn't know the answer. Yeah. And so this Facebook thread really nailed it for me. The reason I couldn't answer him is because there is no one way

to write women just as there is no one way to write men or any human being regardless of gender or sexuality or race or identity, you know. People love stereotypes and boxes but none of us fit neatly into them and in film in general men are allowed to be as flawed and funny and terrible and great and villainous and heroic as they lie. I wouldn't even say they're allowed to be. I'd say it's just more seen. Yeah.

Because of the numbers that you're talking about earlier. Yeah, because they're seen as white blokes up until very recently have just been seen as the baseline. You know, like the bland, you know. Kelly, manic pixie dream girl, totally. Yeah. You know, that Amelie kind of fucking. Yes.

Yeah, I know. It comes up a lot, even in Love, not Love, actually. Oh, no, it does in Love, actually, but also in About Time. Yes. You know? I've always said that that character doesn't make any sense, the sister. Yeah, and you're right, actually.

I've since have watched it and gone, yes, she's the least. And also Rachel McAdams does, like, become, like, less important as that movie. But it's about fathers and sons, I guess, that movie anyway. It's not about. She does become less important. She absolutely does. Yeah, so just as women are often only portrayed one dimensionally,

the same can be said for all types of people. I don't know if you've seen this recently. For example, transgender people are often mischaracterized and typecast in film as villains or mentally ill. That's very true. And you see it a lot. Like recently I was watching a BBC murder mystery show because, you know, that's what I love to do, and inexplicably one of the guy's sons

just happened to be transgender and it was sort of portrayed that he was off the rails. And I was watching it thinking that has nothing to do with him being transgender. Like that didn't mean. Well, that seems like it did. No, I know exactly. No, you know what I mean.

It doesn't mean to be there. The J.K. Rowling's new book is also like it's a murderous. Oh, yeah, that's a whole wormhole. Yeah. The movie Ace Ventura, the villain is a transgender person at the end of that. Or is it Hannibal? No, Silence of the Lambs, the murderer in that. Oh, yeah, this too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just such a damaging kind of stereotype to keep perpetuating. I was so excited to see Elliot Page identify her pronouns as he and they and come out as trans. Yeah, absolutely. That just happened, yeah. Just very, very recently. Just another example of a voice that needs to be heard for people of all kinds of different backgrounds and diversity.

Because I think this is what it all speaks to. We're all just human beings. And when you write characters, if you are a writer, you should write your character first and foremost as a human being. And then their gender or their sexuality or their race should be secondary to that. So you should just be writing the person that you want to write. And then if they have obstacles that come up because of their gender sexuality. They need to eat ice cream. Think about how would they eat that ice cream.

No, but it's more about, you know, I think it's like what Livia Coleman said, her most interesting roles have been the ones where you just transfer. They were written for a bloke and you just put a woman in there or someone else from a different background because so often there is very little that you need to change to make that character female. Totally, yeah. There's like very little. Daniel Vogel talks about Margot Robbie and Sharon Tate in

Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, which is really true. It's like a non-character in that movie. Yeah. There's heaps of really good examples here. One of my favorite ones came from a listener's wife who he didn't name, so I apologize. It's from Danny Wallace. Here's one from my wife. Avengers Endgame, Tony Stark gets a funeral scene and Black Widow gets Hulk throwing a bench. Oh, I did read that one. It's really funny. Oh, my goodness. So, yeah, and there's people in here talking about, yeah,

who are like I don't know whether I could write women or whatever or how would I even approach something like that. But, yeah, but I think, I mean, I don't know. I'm not a writer. What do I know? But, yeah, for me, like and the same with you, the characters I relate to are the ones from wherever, whatever the background is, whatever the orientation is,

it's like comes from a place of, like, truth, I guess. Yeah, like as a human being, what would you do as a person, not as a woman? What would a woman do? Yeah, exactly. Like a woman would probably do very similar things to a man depending. Panic. Depending on the type of character you're writing.

Yeah. You know, depending on the type of character you're writing. You know, depending on the type of character you're writing. That's right. Yeah, you're working flaws and whatever. I don't know. I don't know anything about writing. What do I know? Not a goddamn thing. No, but I think that's a good place to start.

And obviously the other thing would be to choose women who have experience with the kinds of problems faced by your characters in the story and have a chat. Yeah. You know? Have a bloody chinwag, mate. Just quickly on the Elliot Page thing as well, what I found really interesting on that, and I'm sure there is blowback.

I haven't really had a good look at it. You wrote such a beautiful post on Instagram. Yeah, exactly. What I think is compare this to like what would have happened 20 years ago if something like this happened. You know, the same person or a similar person 20 years ago, completely different reaction. I know there's some people who, again, would have pushed back against this,

but there is this idea of, like, acceptance now, which is, and I think it's, again, of, like, people getting used to these things and realising, hey, it's not a big deal. Like, it is, of course it's a big deal. It's a big deal, but, you know what I mean, it's not going to affect you. They're not going to make you, it doesn't affect you at all. You know what I mean? No one's going to make you, you know, do anything to yourself

or anybody else, do you know what I mean? You don's going to make you do anything to yourself or anybody else. Do you know what I mean? You don't need to worry about it. This is just somebody else's personal journey and this is the thing that they're doing and fucking chill out. Don't worry about it. Yeah, I just think there just needs to be more representation of different types of masculinity and femininity, you know,

and that whole broad spectrum. It's a spectrum. And you see it in kids as well because being teachers. Totally. You totally see it in kids. And I know you also see it in adults but I think it's more it in kids as well because being teachers. You totally see it in kids. And I know you also see it in adults but I think it's more evident in kids a lot of the time because there's that no filter and it's just this whole spectrum, you know.

And I think that also gets worn away often when people grow up, you know, because of certain expectations and pressures put on them and whatever. Or maybe people just go through phases. That's also a thing as well obviously. But, yeah, I think it's really interesting that, like, it is just like a natural thing and it's also a lot with the animal kingdom. It's a spectrum. You know what I mean?

The whole thing is a spectrum. Yeah, totally. And you can fit anywhere on that. Correct. Yeah, exactly. So more diversity, please. No, I say less diversity. That was my point.

I don't know. That's the point I was making. Yeah, and I think in the end, right, the only way this is really going to change is to have more women on writing teams and executive roles and in producing. I mean, that's why you get, you know, The Undoing even was produced by Nicole Kidman. I know you didn't really enjoy it, but I still thought.

It kind of wrapped up all right, to be fair. I reckon it did. I reckon it wrapped up. But it's kind of a bunch of bullshit in the middle of that. Yeah, it was okay. Yeah, yeah. And good performances and whatever. Anyway, we should get to the listeners.

We should. We've got a bloody message, mate. This has been a very long episode. This is your fault. I would never make an episode this long in my life. What do we got? What do we got? All right, so if you'd like to email the show with your suggestions

at suggestiblepod.gmail.com, you can. And we would love to get emails. But also, you can do a voice memo. Just say up top your name and where you're listening from and you might just end up in the show just like this person here we go

Hi Claire and James, just thought I'd get in touch with a little suggestible of my own right here this is something that means quite a lot to me personally, it's a comic book by IDW publishing in DC, it's called comic book uh by idw publishing in dc uh it's called love is love it was published shortly after the horrific uh nightclub shooting in orlando florida at the pulse nightclub uh the gay nightclub and it's just basically a comic book that celebrates

lots of lgbt plus love stories and everything like that it was organized by mark and drake who's a comic book writer he works mainly on wonder woman a lot of other dc comics and a lot of comic book writers and artists donated their time and talent to all come together and bring something beautiful out of something absolutely tragic so yeah i definitely think everyone should check out love is love cool great what an apt week for it okay Yeah, that was from Nathan Bower. Okay, cool, because I was going to say, who was that from, Claire? Make sure, Nathan, put your name on top.

No, that was fine. That's a really good recommendation. I'm actually just purchasing this right now on my Comixology. Correct. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Nathan. So you can be just like Nathan and live in. You can be just like Nathan.

All right, and reviewing. I got some reviews here. Don't even worry about it, Claire. You can review the show. You can just do it in-app. You can do it in-app. You can do it in-app. This is from Pickle256.

It says, less successful but not in my heart. Listening to James become increasingly exasperated as Claire fully commits to the bit, never fails to make me laugh. Those are both hilarious and charming in their own right, but together they have a fantastic dynamic that's a joy to listen to. If you ever want a story about strong women or AI take, no for the world. Suggestible this podcast for you.

Though I like to listen for the banter more than anything else. So that's a beautiful thank you and not inaccurate review. Or you could just do something short like this from The Hamigans. It says, don't hate me, only writing this review so James doesn't hate me. Well, I don't hate you, The Hamigans. You've done the right thing. So, yeah, it really helps the show. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. What have you got else in terms of letters, Claire? Is that it? That's it. That's it. All right, let's wrap up the show then. For this week, we've been to Jessable Potter. You can listen to us in all the apps and all the things.

And love is love. Love is love. Love is love. Just get over it and just bloody let people do what they want. Correct. Fucking back up. And give some bloody women some more bloody words to say diverse in general i say correct less boobs more words no not less boobs nobody's saying less boobs just to clarify

it's perfect all right thanks guys bye goodbye oh thanks for calling for editing thanks oling he's done it again how did he do it i't know. This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit planetbroadcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates. I mean, if you want. It's up to you. We can wait for clean water solutions. Or we can engineer access to clean water. We can acknowledge Indigenous cultures. Or we can learn from Indigenous voices. We can demand more from the Earth. Or we can learn from indigenous voices.

We can demand more from the earth. Or we can demand more from ourselves. At York University, we work together to create positive change for a better tomorrow. Join us at yorku.ca slash write the future.