Suggestible - Will Smith and The Oscars

Episode Date: March 31, 2022

Suggestible things to watch, read and listen to. Hosted by James Clement @mrsundaymovies and Claire Tonti @clairetonti.This week’s Suggestibles:00:00 Will Smith and The Oscars17:14 Pulp Fiction Reunion18:06 Lady Gaga & Tony Bennett (Love For Sale)37:04 CODA Trailer37:48 Zendaya's Oscars Outfit38:04 Jane Fonda's 1979 Speech43:08 Tonts with Sarah WilsonSend your recommendations to [e-mail], we’d love to hear them.You can also follow the show on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook @suggestiblepod and join our ‘Planet Broadcasting Great Mates OFFICIAL’ Facebook Group. So many things. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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I know. What was I thinking? I think I had a brain freeze, unlike maybe potentially someone else over the last few days. No, no. Someone who. I don't know if that was a brain freeze. It felt like somebody, we're talking about the Oscars,

more sprung into action. Yeah, that's so true. It should be called Will Smith in the City. The show Sex and the City should be called. But he's not in it. I mean, I don't think that. I was trying to make a joke there and it just lay so flat. Should we just start again?

No, no, no. You don't get second chances. That's my belief. The problem is, James, I'm so bamboozled by what happened. And for those who don't know, please just enlighten us first what happened. Okay, sure. 24 hours ago, I went to a library to work all day and somehow missed one of the biggest things that happened in pop culture history.

Sure. Anyway. And I messaged you and I'm like, hey, Will Smith slapped Chris Rock. And you're like, what? And you're like, at the Oscars. At the Oscars. On stage. On stage.

And then I sent you through the videos. But, yeah, so essentially that's what happened. He was presenting. He made a joke in relation to Will Smith's wife. Jada Pickett Smith. I know you're the one who always thinks you blank on names but that literally happens to me all the time. In relation to having her head shaved, which we'll get into,

the reasons why, and then he steps on stage, slaps him, and then gets off stage and proceeds to tell him to keep his wife's name out of his fucking mouth. And that, in a nutshell, I mean, you know that. Everybody knows that at this point. And we just kind of want to,, you know that everybody knows that at this point, and we just kind of want to, I don't know, unpack that a little bit. There's so much to talk about in this. And I want to preface this by saying that I've thought a lot about how I felt because I think in the immediate aftermath, like when you watch that footage,

it's kind of you laugh, which I think you always laugh because a lot of the audience members are shocked. You kind of laugh. You're not sure how to feel. You don't know what's happening. I feel like if you didn't know and the way that I kind of came to it, because they muted it in most places in the world. In Australia they didn't mute it.

Freedom of speech, baby, and also Japan. That was when he was yelling at Chris. Yeah, so it's kind of like is this a weird skit? Because, like, they do weird skits and the Oscars are notorious for doing weird, unfunny skits. And it's when he starts screaming at him. From the audience. Yeah, that was for me the moment when I was like, oh, shit,

like this could be real. It's most likely real. And also, like, ironically enough, I think that part is, like, the most impactful, like the most awkward moment, like ironically enough, I think that part is like the most impactful, like the most awkward moment like out of all of it. Do you know what I mean? Because I think that's when it really kicks in that like this is, I'm not saying it's worse.

I'm saying that's when you realise that it's real. And I think everyone in the audience starts to realise. Including Chris Rock. Yeah, exactly. And it's quite interesting, isn't it, because Chris Rock's composure, he's a professional, like he somehow held that together. And I mean, look, say what you will about Chris Rock, that would have been an incredibly strange moment. I think the first thing I want to say in all of this is that I do not condone what Will Smith did on any level.

I've come to that realisation that it's really disturbed me the more I've watched it because I've watched a lot and I've gone and looked at a lot of like his acceptance speech afterwards. The other thing I want to say is that actually at the heart of it first is a black woman, Jada Pinkett Smith, who has been dealing publicly with alopecia and losing her hair, which for a lot of reasons, and me as a white woman, I feel uncomfortable about talking about from her perspective.

So I've been looking at a lot of Instagram accounts. I do follow a lot of black women because I just think in this moment that is important to listen to people of colour particularly and their take on this too because I think initially you're like, well, this is hilarious slash scary slash what has happened slash, oh my God, as Chris Rock says, great television. But there's a lot, the reason why everyone's talking about it so much, other than the fact that Will Smith has had this kind of incredible reputation as being like a very nice person, really, realistically, and a family-friendly guy in all his films

and, you know. Public persona. Public persona. All of that stuff. Yeah, I was sort of following one particular advocate against violence against women, Tarang Chawla, who I interviewed on Tons. He had a really great perspective. He said it's sad.

It's sad on all fronts. Yeah, it really is. It's not, it's, you don't, there's no winners. I don't, like, I don't feel, it's got nothing to do with me for one, but I don't feel good about any of it. I'm not like, oh, that feels justified or, you know, or any of it. Do you know what I mean? It's just not.

And also it's also like rich people shit and it's all like that's another element of it. Do you know what I mean? It's just not. And also it's also like rich people shit and it's all like that's another element of it, do you know what I mean? Privilege. Yeah, and all of that. Yeah, I mean, and look, it's an incredibly difficult room as well because, I mean, the Oscars is still very much a white room, right? Yeah, well, that also. Full of white supremacy and privilege in general.

Yeah, well, it has a terrible history of those things. Correct. Like there's an example of when Marlon Brando, who was also not a good person, sent up a Native American woman to collect his awards and apparently there's like a form of protest and John Wayne apparently had to be physically restrained because he was so mad. And also, fuck John Wayne.

Like he's a piece of shit. Like there is this, the Oscars, it doesn't have this flawless, squeaky queen, squeaky clean image. Like it's a bunch of sociopaths for the most part, like patting it, maybe not for the most part, but like patting each other on the back. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like there's a lot of that.

Yeah, I guess, yeah, it depends on the way you look at it, right? And another perspective I've been thinking about, right, in all of this, as I wanted to just quickly mention what Trang said. Yeah, sorry. As it's sad on all fronts, it's sad for Will Smith as well because he clearly was at a point where he was about to win the Best Actor Award, technically a pinnacle of his career, and he's worked an incredibly long time, been a role model,

whether or not he wanted to be, for so many people and so well loved, part of our childhood even. And so at like the crest of his career to do that and kind of in such a public way assault someone in front of everyone, including his wife, like the whole world has seen this footage now. Like that's sad. I'm sad for Jada Pinkett Smith who was sitting next to him who was a very articulate, incredibly powerful person in her own right.

I mean they have the red table talks, right, where she's renowned for sitting there and having very frank, difficult conversations, right? Yeah. And so she can defend herself, you know. If she had wanted to, she could have, you know, stood up. And I think her facial expressions on camera did that. Yeah, well, absolutely.

And you could see that she was offended and hurt by what Chris Rock said. So that's sad. There's sort of that element. Then there's also Chris Rock who's a comedian trying to do his job. Whether or not you like him or not, that's beside the point. He shouldn't be assaulted. Then there's also just the fact that it's so triggering for people who have been affected by male violence particularly to see

that on screen in a position where you think it's all glamour and dresses and rewards and funny memes and jokes and you don't expect to witness something so raw. And I think that's what is also shocking. I think, look, and the other thing is like he did, like a slap is not the same as a punch. The slap is not the same as like stabbing somebody. Do you know what I mean?

Like there are degrees of violence. I'm not trying to justify it because, again, this is not something that I think he should have done and is not okay, like even under these specific circumstances which I want to get into more. But look, I also don't know whether he thought he knew he was even going to do that, walking up to him. Do you know what I mean?

I think, you know, Chris Rock clearly didn't know what was going to happen at that point. You also, as few people have mentioned, that you see Will Smith laugh, like at the joke. But also, like, I don't think that's a, and some people have interpreted it as this, and who knows what he was actually thinking at the time. You that oh he laughed and then he saw his wife was upset and then thought well i better do something but also sometimes you can hear a thing it takes you a

second to kind of comprehend what's happened and then you know and then you know you make a split second decision you know and it's also it's would be hard, you know, because if, look, she, I have no experience with this, but being a woman and a black woman who's losing her hair, she's been very public with, and by all accounts, it seems like Chris Rock didn't know that. He's done a documentary specifically about black women's hair, and he's talked to a woman with alopecia. He made that movie in like 2010 or 2009.

What? He's so ironic ironic there's so much yeah which makes all which makes me think also he didn't know because also he was like it was a gi jane joke like what the fuck is happening like that was his kind of reaction but also if like and again this is not justifying what will smith did say like saying something to somebody that you love that and about something that you've maybe seen them behind the scenes be hurt by and be like and like struggle with and you have to witness that and, you know, and see how painful it is for them that clearly maybe, again,

I don't know, like brought something out in him. And I can imagine a situation where like if somebody said something to you which I thought was like like incredibly hurtful there would be a moment where you'd go like i could i can see how it would happen is what i'm saying i'm not justifying it he shouldn't have done it you know what i mean i again i don't think like it wasn't even a great joke like you know like it's you know but like i understand what led him to that point but but absolutely he shouldn't have done it. Because, like you said, it kind of undercut everything else.

It undercut the rest of the night. It undercut a bunch of the other winners. It undercut himself. Do you know what I mean? It brings everybody down, you know? Yeah, completely. And there's something I've been reflecting on as well. The phrasing that he uses when he's yelling out at Chris Rock, take my wife's name out of your effing mouth.

Yeah. You know, in this way. He doesn't use Jada's name. And look, maybe I'm putting something on this as well because obviously people all make mistakes. We are all fragile. I don't know what it, I couldn't even imagine the kind of pressure that he's under.

However, that phrasing bothers me because I hate that idea that a wife is someone's property. Yeah. My wife. He doesn't say Jada. He doesn't say, you know, speak more politely about something. I mean, obviously he's enraged at that particular time, but I really hate that phrasing because I feel like it speaks into, yes, it was just, it was a slap as opposed to a punch and a stab, but we know the trajectory of how domestic violence plays out, how coercive

control plays out in relationships. And the idea that a woman is someone's property and that he can be offended on her behalf because someone else is talking about her because she's a thing that he owns. Right, yeah. And I'm not saying that's what Will Smith was thinking, but that to me is the phrasing, the way he says it. And I've heard men speak about, you know, you can't talk to my wife like that.

If he was talking about. You're looking at my girlfriend. Right. It's the same thing. Yeah. you know, you can't talk to my wife like that. If he was talking about- You're looking at my girlfriend. Right? It's the same thing. And it's dangerous because then it speaks into this idea of women not having their own autonomy and be able to stand up for themselves. And then when he does his acceptance speech, and you can see in real time him really emotional, trying to grapple with and pedal back and try and figure out what the hell he's done.

And then, you know. And he's like, I'm sure they're like legally maybe don't say sorry because then you open yourself. I mean he did issue a public apology like the next day. Yeah, but, you know, like in that moment I can't even imagine, you know, you're on one of the most public stages in the entire world to sort of grapple with all of those emotions plus winning best actor. It's just so strange.

But the dangerous language I think he used in that was that it's, I'm a protector and it's my right to protect the people I love and this is love. That is the language of control. That is the language. I'm not saying, this is not a commentary on their specific relationship. I have no idea what their relationship is like, but that kind of language is the kind of language that men use in these relationships where control and violence can kind of escalate because they have an idea of women as their property they need to protect and that love is like protecting them.

And yes, I don't know, I'm interested in your opinion about that. Well, you know, I think like love is protecting somebody, but who are you really protecting, you know, in like maybe not that scenario in particular, but like what are you, are you hurt because you're embarrassed or like is this like, I mean, there's a hundred better ways he could have handled it. Yeah, maybe he could have just yelled out. Maybe he could have gone up and said something.

Maybe he could have waited till afterwards, you know what I mean? Maybe he could have said something in his speech. You know, there are a number of other ways you could protect the people you love without doing, you know, what he did. And resorting to violence, right? Because it reminds me of when I see kids I've taught, particularly boys, I'm saying really, but girls too, who are in their seven and eight who don't have impulse control. And I've seen fights break out at bars and stuff, even not little girls. Yeah, oh, yeah. It looks like that.

There's like this kind of brain snap. Yeah, like a lizard part of your brain kind of kicks in. Yeah, and it doesn't look heroic and it doesn't look, I don't know, brave. It looks kind of messy and silly and juvenile. It does. That's how it looks to me when I've seen real men fighting or anyone actually on the street fighting. You ever see like a real fight, but do you know what I mean?

Yeah, it's scrappy and there's like collars being pulled. And it's juvenile. People like falling over tables and stuff. Yeah, because people aren't putting in, aren't in their highest mind, you know, at that point. And I think when we talk about toxic masculinity, that's what it is. That's what it is. Yeah.

It's that idea of, you know, I'm this guy and I can go out there and protect what I, who I love and, like, love is about, you know, punching someone who might talk about my girlfriend in that way. And I'm not saying that any of the guys I know actually talk in that voice. Sure. Well, I like to. And I'm not an expert in this field either, I have to say, but it bothered me.

And it's bothered me more the further from the event it's got. Because in the moment I was like, this is hilarious. I mean, and that's the other thing. It's very entertaining, you know, and the Oscars is notoriously boring or, like, misinformed or they're pandering to, like, the wrong audiences because I think they should really just focus in on people who love cinema. Do you know what I mean?

And they're getting away from it and they bring comedians up and they're like, what about Marvel movies? Like, shut up. Who cares? Like, nobody wants this. Okay, I want it because I love the dresses. No, no. And this year the dresses were spectacular.

I mean that's what I'm talking about. Like do like focus on like the classiness of it. And the glamour. You should revel in these things, not just like talk down to, you know what I mean. And it feels like they're doing it for audiences, like nudge, nudge, wink, wink, we know this is silly. But it's also like you don't think this is silly because you all get up there

and cry for five minutes about how you're changing the world or whatever the fuck. You know what I mean? And there are genuinely and there have been beautiful moments like the Liza Minnelli Lady Gaga moment. Wonderful. Really nice. They did an award together. Yeah.

And actually it's really beautiful. I've loved seeing Liza Minnelli as well. Oh, I love Liza. Oh my gosh. She's one of my heroes. I love Liza Minnelli. I love Cab, I love Liza. Oh my gosh. She's one of my heroes. I love Liza Minnelli. I love Cabaret. I love watching old clips of her. I fall down rabbit holes sometimes watching old clips of her performing and also watching clips of Barbra Streisand as well. I love her. And

also I follow some old Hollywood Instagram accounts because they just have the best. And I've had a brain freeze. Who is the actress from The Wizard of Oz? Judy Garland. Judy Garland. I fall down rabbit holes of watching her as well because, God, she's fabulous. That's their mother and daughter, right?

No. Is that right? Liza Manley, Judy Garland? Is that right? No, that doesn't sound right. Yeah, parents, Judy Garland. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I thought that was true.

Yeah. But I just thought that was a really nice kind of, I mean, I think Lady Gaga, as far as I can tell, and who knows, is great. And she always seems to be respectful of the people who have come before them and she's very, like, hyper aware of things that are going on, like socially, do you know what I mean? She's also an amazing actor at the same time, you know, and performer. Just, like, just an incredible person.

I just thought that was really great. But what was also weird is after this event, and I don't really know what else you can do, it just rolls on and before they present the award for, because I started watching then. I don't watch the Oscars. But then I'm like, I'm going to see it because if he wins, I need to see this speech, you know, I want to see it happen.

But then so to present like the best actor, they bring out Uma Thurman and Sam Jackson and John Travolta from Pulp Fiction and they're doing like the little Pulp Fiction dance before they bring up Will Smith. And I'm just like this is so fucking weird. And obviously it's pre-rehearsed, like it's rehearsed. Yeah.

And you know what I mean? And it's like remember Pulp Fiction? And it's like it's rehearsed. Yeah. And you know what I mean? And it's like, remember Pulp Fiction? And it's like, what's happening now? Like I feel like I've just stepped into like a parallel dimension to what we all just saw. I know. You know? But again, like what do you do?

Exactly. You know, do they come out and just go, okay, I guess we'll just, yeah, it's Will Smith. Weird, right? Exactly. And on that, you know, just briefly when you touched on Lady Gaga, who's seeming like a really cool person, yes, 100%, there's an amazing documentary about her on Netflix,

which I just loved. But also, you know how she does that Liza Minnelli section where Liza Minnelli's in her wheelchair and she's obviously had some health issues. She's quite elderly. 76. 76. She also has a history of that because she recently released

this incredible album with the crooner Tony Bennett. Okay, yeah. Who has Alzheimer's. Oh, you were telling me about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You talked about it here maybe? Yeah, I think I did. And I just fell in love with her again and with him.

And it's amazing. He can't remember anyone in his life. He can't remember his own name sometimes but they do this concert and he just comes alive when the music comes on. And so you see this guy who's kind of just wandering around and the piano starts and he just turns into this performer. Yeah. And what's so beautiful is how she cares for him and brings

that out of him and you can tell how honoured she is to be there. And I think that's what you're speaking into, right? Like that Pulp Fiction dance, there's no dignity and glamour in that. No, I mean and it's, I mean I also, I get it. People remember Pulp Fiction, I understand, and it didn't win an Oscar or whatever. It's just, it's bizarre. But that's like that's what the Oscars are.

You know, you get like glimmers of like, oh, that's really nice with just like pure unadulterated cringe. You know what I mean? Yeah. While a comedian gets up there who also, and comedians generally aren't invited to like so they will say stuff and then celebrities sit there and awkwardly stare. And what is weird is that takedown comedy that's been happening recently

where they stand up and they just take down people in the audience. Yeah. They just like tear strips off them. And I don't know. It's kind of boring at this point as well. It's like, yeah, Ricky Gervais does it. We get it. Exactly.

And I think it's mean. And I know that they're like at the top, you know, they're incredibly wealthy and privileged and all of the things and people need to have a sense of humour about themselves. But I do think that's like quite cruel to stand there and just like tear people down. Yeah, I think it's like yes. But like I don't have the problem with the mean thing really generally,

you know what I mean? Shockingly. No, I know. But if you're like if he genuinely knew that she was suffering from alopecia and said that, then yeah, that's not cool. But also you can't slap someone over that, obviously. But again, I don't think he knew that. I don't know that.

I think he's come out and said that he didn't know that. Because you didn't, like I knew it, but you didn't. No, I hadn't. No. So it's not something that everybody knew. No, exactly. But I do think that like, oh, so-and-so's here. Oh, Lena DiCaprio's girlfriend's so young and whatever.

It's like, yeah, he dates younger women. It's strange. We all know that. Like let's do something funny maybe. Can this be funny, you know, at the very least? And it's just not very funny and it hasn't been funny ever or since like, well, I think Chris Rock did rock did in 2016 where i mean that speaks to their history as well because he talked about jada pinkett smith then specifically she boycotted

because the oscar's so white that was the campaign and he was like you were never invited in the first place and there is the feeling as well that like chris rock betrayed you know his community by taking this gig you know what i mean all of these things which is something that i you know this is something that i have no experience in obviously But it's generally like pretty awful and cringe and stuff like Billy Crystal and a few others have done it. Anyway, sorry, you were saying. No, it's interesting you were talking about that. I know, because that's the other layer upon this that I think, as I said before, I just think it's really important to listen to voices other than, you know, people who reflect the kind of worldview that you have.

And so I think going to listen and just kind of look at commentary from people of colour particularly about this issue and let them speak as well on this issue. And I'm sure I sound, I don't know, whatever, pious, but I just think that's incredibly important because I think we can have one perspective on this but there's a whole other layer of stuff there that we can't understand and speak into. Hi I'm Jessie Cruikshank from the number one comedy podcast Phone a Friend which I strongly advise you listen to. You know what else I suggest you look into? Becoming a host on Airbnb.

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2024. To learn more, go to airbnb.ca slash host. However, the other thing I thought was interesting on that comedians hosting thing, this actually was a Hollywood sort of first, right? To have three women host the Oscars. This time it was actor Regina Hall, Emmy award-winning comedians, Amy Schumer and Wanda Sykes. And it's the first time that's happened. It's a good line-up, yeah. Yeah, and it's the first time it's ever happened in the history of the Oscars that you've had three women. And really not many women get to host and not ever do they get

to be all three women. So only a handful of women starting with Agnes Moorhead in 1948 and Claudette Colbert and Thelma Ritter in the 1950s have hosted the ceremony. But they've always had a male counterpart. Yeah, Anne Hathaway did it with like James Franco I think. Correct. Yeah, exactly.

Then the same with Goldie Hawn, Jane Fonda, Liza Minnelli and Shirley MacLaine. It's always been with guys, right? Yeah. And then actor, comedian will be Goldberg did it as an MC and solo in 1994 and then in 1996 and 1999 and then Ellen DeGeneres has done it, right? I didn't know that.

Okay, yeah. But this is really still quite a story. We got up and did it three times, really. Yeah, she did. I mean, she's bloody fantastic. I mean, I don't know. Is she problematic now? I don't know what she's up to.

Anyway, I just have been reflecting that I think it's quite interesting that in a ceremony where you, for the first time, have three women who are the hosts. Yeah. Who I actually think did a good job from what I saw. I always like Amy Schumer as well. I think she, like not always but often I like Amy Schumer. All right, yeah.

Yeah. The other part of that is that the story that Will Smith was telling was about Serena Williams and Venus Williams. Yes. Very well, very, very famous, ostensibly two of the most powerful women in sport slash in the world, I think, in terms of wealth and accomplishment. Absolutely.

Both powerhouses. But the film is about their father, right? So the film is called King Richard and it's about sort of their family story, right? Centering on their father and that's who Will Smith plays. Now, I don't know how I, I just feel like it isn't entirely coincidental that there are two guys, one of which is like making fun of another woman's like, and on stage, and then Will has this kind of altercation with him and then there's men kind of yelling at each other

and it's this sort of toxic moment in this time where women's power is kind of rising and there's also three women kind of hosting the event. And I don't know, this is a very long bow to draw, I know that, but I still think what is going on there? Because we can see it, right? Like in Australia, the domestic violence is on the rise. And I just, I feel like the more that women are allowed

to have equality and equal power and wealth, and we still don't have that, there's a huge disparity there. There's this backlash, this toxic backlash that is happening where men are having to cede some power. And I'm not saying that the Will Smith incident is indicative of this. I don't think Will Smith was thinking this in his head and then that's why he did it. But that kind of energy shift is happening and there are some men that are really excited about it and looking forward to the world being more equal. Like me, I'm an ally.

Yes. No, but I also think that on the flip side that there's a hell of a lot of men that are very angry about that or unconsciously angry about it or very overtly angry about it, right? Absolutely. Railing about it. And I just feel like that's a coincidence and maybe it just is a coincidence. I think you're not wrong in terms of like there is a shift, you know what I mean, and maybe this whole thing speaks

to a wider problem. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe it's just celebrities slapping each other on TV. Yeah, well, this is exactly right. Maybe I've been thinking about this for 24 hours. Yeah. I don't know, but two things can be true, right? Absolutely. And another aspect of it, which I think is, may have played in, and I think is interesting, is, I guess, depending if you find this stuff interesting, is that like

they've been publicly dragged for like years, probably like a couple of decades now because it's kind of a, it's more of a very, very open secret now. I don't know if they've ever admitted it, but they have like an open marriage, right, which is not a thing that I'm really interested in, like taking part in personally. If that's your thing, absolutely.

Not you personally, Claire, but I'm talking about it's like if that's what makes them happy and they're comfortable with that and they're, you know. And we've talked about this before. We've talked about it before. Yeah. That's fine. But also like, I'd imagine he probably on some level must find that difficult when people probably all day on social media are like this particular, there's like one rapper in particular who was like friends with their son who slept with her. You know what I mean? And that's known. She's talked about that. And he's also slept with other people because that's their relationship.

I'd imagine like this like public humiliation is probably building up in his head, you know what I mean, over time. Not to do with their relationship in particular but being ridiculed, you know. Yeah, which he does allude to in his speech. Not about anything specific. Yeah. Specific.

But I agree that's an interesting perspective too, right. And I could see like I feel like there's a particular weight on his shoulders. Yeah. That he's been, you know, climbing that ladder and upholding this sort of reputation for years and years and years. Yeah, and he's always talked about like trying to be perfect and trying to please everybody.

I remember him talking about that like years ago when I was a kid, you know what I mean? I remember watching a documentary and it was about him. He wasn't like in it where it talked about his first marriage because he had a first marriage. He has a son from his first marriage and he kind of, the idea that that marriage didn't work like really, you know, it hurt him because he didn't, he felt like a failure.

He wants to get things right. And he's talked about also, I talked about recently, he was getting fit thing. Yeah, he did. And how like that, he struggled with that, but like now he's like bigger and being perceived this way, you know what I mean? And he's getting older, you know,

and he talks about his relationship with his kids and in particular, Willow Smith, where he was pushing her to do all these things, become this pop star. And it was the same with Jaden Smith where he was pushing her to do all these things, become this pop star. And it was the same with Jaden Smith because he was doing The Karate Kid and whatever else. And like he struggled with not being out, not with them being an extension of him and, you know, being perfect. You know what I mean?

Because I think like he is in therapy as far as I can tell. Do you know what I mean? Like I think he is trying. You know what I mean? And he just like sometimes we have, you know, you have a lapse in judgment, sometimes minor, sometimes severe. People snap. Yeah, people snap.

People snap because really that is one of the most public ways that you could potentially make a giant mistake. Like it's almost like he's been so perfect and he's done this thing that is absolutely awful. You know, the flip side of it. The other thing as well is like they're kind of Scientologists as well, which is like a whole other thing. And they're not very open about that but they've like,

I can't remember whether it's funded or open schools, that teach like Scientology learnings. And I was reading this thing about it and this could be all bullshit but apparently one aspect of Scientology, if you disagree with somebody or you want to like put them in that place, you can slap them. It's part of it. I don't know whether that's true. I literally just like –

There is so many layers to this. I just want to clarify. I don't know whether that's a real thing. I know there is a thing of like publicly – not publicly but like within the church, like shaming, yelling, like physical. Is there really? Oh, yeah. it's fuck. It's fuck.

That whole thing is fuck. So that's fun. Here's a question for you though. Yeah, hang on. Just before you say that, I had one other thought bubble because I have so many thoughts about this whole thing and I don't know why because there are so many more. I guess this is probably going to be the whole episode.

I want to talk about Bridget in season two. You haven't finished Bridget in season two. No, I haven't. I should talk about it next week because we've taken up this whole time talking about this one two-minute incident. Rewinding a little bit back to what you said about him needing things to be perfect, the idea that then Jada is losing her hair and she now has a shaved head and she looks stunning.

I mean, she's an incredibly beautiful woman. Oh, yeah. Either way, you know, whatever. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. And, you know, it looks great. But I wonder, this is such a just a hypothesis.

Like, oh, my, we're now just psychoanalyzing these people that we don't know them obviously. Nope. Nope. But isn't that interesting to think about that I wonder whether he's also struggling with the idea of his wife not being perfect. Yeah, maybe. Unconsciously.

I don't know. Subconsciously. He's also, also Will Smith is also balding. He does that topic thing. It's like the hair fiber. That's unrelated, I guess, but yeah. Wow. You know a lot about this stuff.

I know a lot about balding, Claire. Don't even worry about it. Sometimes I ignite a knowledge bomb about this. I don't want to get into the specifics of this because it speaks to, like, people we know and I don't want to get into it. No, no. But you do know a lot about it. Well, I've talked about it because a couple of years ago I was using a

shampoo that, like, darkens your hair and, like, fully, like, thinned out my hair. Yeah, correct. Like, dramatically dramatically and it freaked me out so I can't even like imagine what it like like being a woman and apparently being black you're also more susceptible to it as well you know what I mean I'm like that's oh my god it would just be traumatizing like I honestly like and I know it's not some cancer you're not you know you're not in a wheelchair you know what I know it's not cancer, you're not, you know, you're not in a wheelchair, you know what I mean? But it's, yeah, it's part of you, you know what I mean? It's hair is everything.

It's from Fleabag. I've got a question for you though, Claire, unless you've got another thought bubble. Please feel free to throw them my way. Oh, is this still Oscars related? Yeah, no, absolutely. All right, yeah, go for it because I have a little few other things for you. Okay.

So there's been talk and apparently the Academy, and maybe this has been sort of settled by now, but there it's been talk of like an investigation into this and I guess the idea of whether to take back his award, right? Wow, yeah. Now, in my opinion, if you open this can of worms, you've got to take back a lot of awards. Like to name a few and trigger warning for this because I'm going to say some pretty ordinary stuff, right? Roman Polanski is a rapist.

10 years ago, he got a standing ovation. He got an award, what's about 10, maybe 15, maybe it was 20 years ago, got a standing ovation at the Oscars. He's hiding in France because he raped a girl, right? He has an Oscar. Sean Penn beat the absolute shit out of Madonna. He has an Oscar. Mel Gibson, I don't know if you've heard the conversations that he's had with his ex-wife. Yes, I've heard those. Horrendous.

Harvey Weinstein is in jail for we all know why. You know what I mean? And this I feel just because it, again, I'm not condoning it. If you're going to take this back, come on. And I guess you could say, well, technically you could because it happened on the night. Well, then it's like what the fuck kind of line is that, you know? And what other stuff's happened that we don't know about on the night

of the Oscars around all of those people. So and look, I also think that, you know, those two, like his, if you want to get technical, his acting performance and what happened on that night, they're not related. And like if they decide to take it back, I don't care, like ultimately. But let's open that up then. Let's see where this goes. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. I mean and also, I mean his Oscar wing, that is so important I think in terms of I guess his career obviously in terms of things that are important in the world. Winning an Oscar obviously doesn't change, you know,

all of the terrible things, the inequality that exists, right? Speech probably would have been different. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think it's historic too. Yeah. And even the fact that another sad part of this is a piece of the story is that Serena and Venus were there in that audience

to have their family honoured. And their father. And their father honoured and to be acknowledged for their incredible contributions, right, in a way, vicariously through celebrating this particular film. I haven't seen the movie but they were sitting in that audience. They had, you know, and I just feel like as black women to sit there, I cannot speak obviously into this but I do, I just feel like, you know,

that's a very special award to be giving to him at this particular moment and that's doubly, triply sad if then this incident also means he gets that Oscar taken away, that Oscar also gets taken away from that particular film. Yeah. And then what does that say? I just, I agree with you. But it doesn't mean that he shouldn't be charged with assault. No, I mean Chris Rock is not pressing charges at this point.

He's not pressing charges. Yeah, and look, and really like it's a slap. Like it's, again, it's not okay. Yeah, he didn't seem particularly injured. He didn't hit him with a car. Like it's, again, it's not okay. He didn't seem particularly injured. He didn't hit him with a car. Like, you know what I mean? And, again, I feel like I keep having to say like but, again, there are degrees of physical violence and this is on the lower end, I guess.

But I also think it's kind of it's unfair that I think to be like, well, this is a representative of like I feel like it becomes representative of like a wider community when it's not. It's like two guys, two celebrities who got it. And people have slapped people for centuries. People slap each other all day. And I'm not condoning that in any way, as I have said before in this. I'm not condoning his behaviour and actually it makes me feel quite sick

in witnessing it. But it is something that just doesn't happen usually on a public forum, but I'm sure there have been many an Oscar party where someone's been slapped. Absolutely. So not to take away the gravity of what's happened and also the fact that so many people watching this event are not expecting to witness something like that. Even, you know, Will Smith's mum in her knitting circle.

Yeah. I just wish there were more crowd reaction photos. I know there's that one going around of everybody but that's from like when La La Land didn't win or won. The only one that I love so much is Nicole Kidman. And there's, if you see Lupita Nyong'o who's sitting behind Will Smith as he's yelling, he's just like, oh, shit. Oh, shit.

Yeah, my God. I know. It's just exact. We've talked about this for 40 minutes, which is a lot longer than some of our other episodes. One thing I did want to say, lost in all of this, is that there was an incredible, there's been lots of incredible moments for winners in these Oscars,

but one in particular was for Troy Kotzner, who is now the first deaf man to win an Oscar for acting and he accepted the Actor in a Supporting Role Award for the film Coda, which has a deaf cast, I'm pretty sure. I haven't seen it. I haven't either, but I've heard. I know so little about it. So the story, and I haven't seen it either yet,

but I will talk about it more in another episode, but the story is about a girl who isn't deaf who is the daughter of deaf parents. And so I think the story kind of is shaped around that. And it's supposedly absolutely stunning as a film. So I can't wait to watch that one. So there's lots of incredible art happening that is really what Oscars is supposed to be celebrating and all like the incredible outfits.

I mean Zendaya, good Lord. Amazing. Incredible. Amazing stuff all around. I loved it. So many outfits though. Just quickly, in 1978 Jane Fonda won an award for the movie Coming Home and if she won she wanted it to be subtitled

and which the Academy didn't do. So as she spoke, she signed the entire thing. One of the things she said was, I'm signing part of what I'm saying tonight because while we were making the movie, we became more aware of the problem of the handicapped. Over 14 million people are deaf. They're invisible, handicapped and can't share this evening so this is my way of acknowledging them.

Jane Fonda, 1978, just making it happen. Can I cast our minds back to last week when you accidentally called her daughter's name and I lost my fucking mind? Oh, my God. Because she is one of my goddamn heroes and she has been a goddamn hero for 50 years. Listen, I just want to say this and I mean it in the most positive way.

Jane Fonda's shrill voice has been ringing through in the decades in a beautiful way, a beautiful cadence. What an era. Oh, my God. This man. Anyways, we should probably wrap it up. You must not value your life that well. Not that much. I don't know.

Well, you can't even make jokes? Are you going to cancel me? I'll say anything. Okay. Well, that's suggest I don't know. Well, you can't even make jokes. We're going to cancel me. I'll say anything. Okay. So that's a suggestible podcast. We did not recommend anything this week other than to talk with your loved ones. I'll say this, though, about the Oscars next year.

I'm still not going to watch it. Of course you will. But listen, if you do want to give feedback on this show, maybe not in relation to this but just in general, you could leave us a review if you want. Five stars preferable, but that's obviously up to you. This is from JMM19. It says five stars, not the manic energy I was expecting, but I absolutely love these two. Reminds me a lot of a former girlfriend I love when Claire says she doesn't like horror movies. So heartwarming and surprising, a good pod to listen to while working out. I should know I'm doing lunges and scots as I type.

Well, kind of. I stopped to review this gem. Voting through both my emails for Australian Podcast Awards. Oh, that's nice. Mr and Mrs Sunday movies forever in my life. Thank you so much. Wonderful. What a superstar.

That's so lovely. Happy squatting. Do you have any letters for us, Claire, this week? I certainly do. I actually have one entitled Toxic Masculinity. Oh, here we go. I know. This is from Tim.

Hi, Claire and James. Please talk about the Will Smith incident at the Oscars. Well, Tim, you've been gifted a whole episode, mate. Absolutely. There seems to be a lot of people who think that what he did was okay, but it's been pointed out that his actions are just ugly, toxic masculinity on display. I've also seen stand-up comedians express their concern that his actions give a green light to patrons getting on stage to assault them when they don't like a joke.

I've been really uncomfortable and disappointed with the amount of memes making light of the situation, especially those being posted on the Great Mates Facebook group. Right, yeah, yeah. And I'd love to hear you guys talk about it. Something positive has to come out of this and I hope that it's people treating others better and men being able to express themselves in better ways than Will did, as well as women having their own agency in situations like this.

Thank you, Tim. I totally agree. The whole thing is an awful mess and I don't like it. What I do like, love, is your podcast though. Keep up the good work and I look forward to hearing you both again each week. Cheers, Tim from Canberra. Wonderful. Thank you so much. It says in brackets, sorry about the politicians. That's not even a fault, Tim.

Which is our capital city where all the politicians kind of live. Yeah. I do, look, I got to say, like I do love the memes. I can't deny that. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's not PC enough for you, Claire. Why are you doing like air quotes in your fingers?

Because I'm insufferable. Oh, no. This is the hard part, right? As Chris Rock said, it was like some of the best television ever or something. Yeah. But also I completely agree with Tim too as we've talked about. Yeah, no, I don't agree with any of that. And I also think, as he said, that's something else to, yeah,

to be concerned about because patrons going to see stand-up gigs, I don't know. I feel like if I was a stand-up comedian I'd be nervous. Yeah, absolutely. And, look, I still believe that also like comedians aren't free from criticism. They aren't like if you – No, but I do think they deserve not to be assaulted in their workplace. That is look, I still believe that also, like, comedians aren't free from criticism. They aren't like if you. No, but I do think they deserve not to be assaulted in their workplace. That is where I was going with that. Yeah, exactly.

So there was obviously a line and that line was crossed. Correct. Yeah. Exactly. I think that's pretty straightforward. But, God, there's so many layers to this. Certainly is. Thanks for listening to us talk for 45 minutes about it.

Do you feel better, James? You got it off your chest? No, not really. No. The further it gets from the incident, the sadder I feel. Like initially I was like, whoa! Well, my initial reaction, I'm glad because we could have recorded earlier like pretty much the night that it happened. I'm really glad that we didn't.

Like I don't think my opinion would have changed that much, but just being able to sit with her for a day and like you said, like listening to different voices and, you know, and just like there's a bunch of stuff came up about it and obviously the apology has been issued since and so on and so forth. Anyways, this is long enough, isn't it? It is. Thank you so much, Collings.

We've been to Jess's podcast. Yes, and thanks, Collings. Now normally Collings writes all the things down the bottom that we're recommending for this week. But I don't know, maybe that Jane Fonda speech. Yeah, correct, exactly. Oh, and the Lady Gaga and Tony Bennett album. Lovely.

Lovely. And Coda. We should all go watch Coda this week and talk about it next week. It seems a bit pretentious for me, Claire. I don't know about that. Oh, yes. I know. You're PC gone mad, mate. It's true. I'mious for me, Claire. I don't know about that. I know. You're a PC god, man.

It's true. I'm a Mr. Sunday. Movies on Twitter. And I'm at Claire20 on Instagram. Oh, and TonsPod. Oh, my God. Who are you interviewing this week? This week it's with Sarah Wilson.

Oh, my God. She's so amazing. You might recognize her from the company I Quit Sugar. She's also written the first We Make the Beast Beautiful, which is an incredible book about anxiety and dealing with that. She also has written a book more recently called This One Wild and Precious Life, and she is an incredible advocate for the planet, climate activist, podcaster. She does a podcast called Wild, which I'd also really recommend going to look at. She's very into talking about why we're here. And so

the episode is quite wide ranging about her story growing up as a minimalist. She's had this like really incredible life. She has dealt with a lot of mental illness in her life as well and done it in a way that I think is really fascinating. She's got a giant brain and I just was so privileged to sit there and just ask her question after question about everything that she's read and thought about in terms of why we're here and how to be a better human but also how to, you know, what we're facing in terms of the planet and the climate crisis. So there's some pretty dark elements to the episode too.

So it does have a warning read out by your good self, James, because I was in the library and needed it after I listened again. I just want to say I took that very seriously as well. I didn't even go. You did. You did it so seriously. I really wanted to though. Who is this man? Anyway, so that's it. Tons, please go subscribe and have a listen if you feel like it or don't. It's up to you. I will. All right. Thanks, everybody. Thanks. Bye.

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