Sword and Scale - Episode 101

Episode Date: October 16, 2017

We conclude with Part 2 of the Scrivo Murder Case, a story which deals with elements of mental illness, grief and the relationship between a mother and a son.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sort and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised I don't understand questions you didn't sacrifice yourself for your family Like most parents would do if somebody was threatening my son and they'd already murdered my other son I would do everything in my power To make sure it doesn't happen again whether that was putting them in the car going a hundred miles out and getting a wall. I Do that. Keeps in the car. You're driving all over Southeast Michigan. You do nothing to stop him Welcome to season 4, episode 101 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst

monsters are real. Today we will cover part 2 of the Screvo Murder Case. If you haven't heard part 1, go back and listen to episode 101, otherwise you may be a little lost on this one. But before we start, I want to take a minute to once again let you know that there is an entirely separate showy produced regularly here called Sword and Scale Plus. Sword and Scale Plus covers mind-boggling cases of crime and murder that are not covered on the regular feed. These are complete standalone stories, like the ones you listen to here, but they are not available here. They are only available exclusively to

supporters who donate just $5 a month to get this additional content. I'm always hearing from people who have listened to every episode and want more sort and scale. Well, this is it. There are currently 16 episodes available, episode 17 drops very soon, that are instantly available to you for your $5 a month level of support. Oh, and you also get early commercial free access to regular shows, store discounts, and a whole lot of additional content. Higher levels periodically get free merchandise like mugs or t-shirts. There's no better way to get more of your favorite show and also help keep us making

more of it. Remember, free content is not free. Someone has to spend long hours producing the shows that you love, so please help support it for just $5 a month and get access to Sword and Scale Plus right now. Go to patreon.com, slash sword and scale. Thank you. [♪ Music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in During the previous episode of Sword and Scale, we dove into an unfortunate story of a man named Ramsay's Scrivo, who disappeared following a lengthy battle with mental illness and addiction. It finally seemed that Ramsay was getting his life on track when in late December of 2014,

he was reported missing by his mother, and legal legal guardian Donna Scrivo. Shortly after, Ramsey's body was discovered in 11 pieces on the side of the road in St. Clair County, Michigan. Donna Scrivo, a 60-year-old former nurse, was taken into custody after she was witnessed dumping garbage bags containing the body parts from her silver Chevy Blazer. I don't know. Was anybody with you? I mean, just make a clear. Did anybody follow you? I don't think I'll wait out there.

If you're telling me that I can get gas there, then I'm just going to grab and hold it completely. I'm hoping that you're going to start remembering a little bit more so that we can figure out what and God's name happened here. Because something happened, something happened to your son, something bad happened. And you're the only person I can take a right now that's called the 90s answers. And we need to have those answers. I don't have any family members.

Who does? I don't know. At the end of part one of this story, after Donna Scriva was arrested and interrogated, she placed a recorded phone call to a friend from the Com County Jail. In the call, she told a story about a masked intruder killing her son and holding her hostage for several days. We spoke to Sergeant Margaret Eight, the lead detective on this case, and asked her if this phone call was the first time Donna Scrivo brought up this masked intruder. Correct.

Do you recall the circumstances surrounding that call? Had she said anything to you about this man before? Never. And her justification wise, she said that she couldn't say anything to us about it, was because that he threatened that he was going to kill the rest of her family and her nieces, and she believed this unknown person knew that he knew enough about their life, that he would follow through on these threats. Hmm. What was the story Donna told on this call?

Well, she said that the man had held her bet she was in the basement doing laundry and that when she came up to notice the front door was a jar and that she went upstairs and that's when she saw this man was up there and she had already killed him and she said that this guy had a gun and he put it to her head and said, you don't do everything I tell you to do that I'm going to kill you as well. And then it went on into a long elaborate story of her, how this man was beating her and yet she had no bruises on her.

She didn't have anything that would have implied that, you know, she had been held hostage. At trial, Donna's defense would claim that investigators failed to follow up on this version of events, that they didn't explore every possibility. That was not accurate whatsoever. The night that we did the search warrant and that we knew that it was impact term, we had multiple officers from our jurisdiction go and camp the area. We camped not only the kind of an am that were close to Ramsey's, but Ramsey's mom had done it another scene, but the house had a house fire like in August of the prior year and we even went there.

The investigation turned up enough evidence to charge Donna Scrivo with the murder of her son. Donna Scrivo, the St. Clair Shore's nurse who was accused of dismembering her son's body, today was charged with first-degree premeditated murder in connection with his death. In May of 2015, Donna Scrivo went on trial for the disinterment and mutilation of a dead body, removal of a dead body without a medical examiner's permission

and first-degree murder. Our law office has been family-owned and operated for more than 70 years. Let us put our experience to work for you. The energetic attorneys at Hadad and Hadad concentrate in the general practice of law. We interviewed Donna's defense attorney, Mark Hadad, about the trial proceedings. My name is Mark Hadad.

I'm a lawyer in private practice, plus or minus 30 years. I represent only people. I've never worked for any branch of government or any big corporation or bank. I've had an office here in the neighborhood for about as long as I've been practicing. And I maintain a general practice that don't specialize or compartmentalize myself in any particular

field or specialty i do a lot of criminal work in in addition that a lot of trial work so when you were called about this case you started hearing the details what was your general reaction about hearing it how do you compartmentalize the facts of this case in order to still defend your client well you know

i guess we have a tendency to see things on the news and uh... in the papers i think there's a natural tendency to take that at face value because you assume the reporters have done their job and check their sources you assume what you hear and see is accurate. But in my business, I have to change hats and knowing what I know, that's not necessarily the case anymore. I know there's always another side. Sometimes there's three sides or four sides to, you know, a turn of events

or any particular story. So you have to try to set aside any preconceived ideas that you learn from the news because keeping in mind while this is all going on, I'm not the lawyer. I'm just Joe Sittison, seeing these news stories. So I had to open up my mind and listen to what Donna had to say. And Donna would have a lot to say during the trial. The state alleged that Donna murdered Ramsey on January 25, 2014. One of Ramsey's neighbors who testified at trial noticed a smell coming from Ramsey on January 25th, 2014. One of Ramsey's neighbors who testified at trial

noticed a smell coming from Ramsey's unit three days later on January 28th. Can you describe the smell? It was very strange. It smelled like something was burning but not like a house was on fire. Mixed with some sort of chemical maybe. It was something I never really smelled before, so it was, it concerned me. That same neighbor also heard someone, extensively Ramsey, using power tools that week. In that same interview when you're talking to detective Ida about the smells you also indicated there was something else unusual that was happening that week.

Could you tell the jury what that was? I did hear sounds like either a saw, electric saw, or a chainsaw, which wasn't unusual really because Randty did a lot of renovations on his unit. He was always renovated and we could always hear loud renovations, noises, fanning, and a lot of loud noises when you renovate. It sounded like he, it just assumed it was the one who was trying to be great about it. How was it, I guess, that you got that sense. It would kind of stop start a little bit and then stop start again. It just sounded like he was trying to cover up the noise. Stopping and starting as though

trying to cut thick dense material with a thin soblit. The teeth catching over and over again. On January 30, two days after the burning smell subsided, a different neighbor noticed Donna loading garbage bags into the vehicle. The morning of January 30, I saw damage during garbage bags to I believe a black SUV. And the following day, she noticed something else. Did you also then tell the officers that you saw something else, some other activity between Donna and one of the vehicles in that same week? Yes.

I was 31st. I was ready in a grocery list at the dining room table and it was between 10th or 11th. She was cleaning out a grey SUV which I believe was the Chevy Blaser and I saw her take the license plate off. So while this case was being mounted against Donna as someone who is there in the courtroom the whole time, how was she reading this? Very stoic, very...her behavior is actually would have been, I personally believe, somebody characteristic of thinking they're getting away with something, but at the end of the day

they know that Pr not going to. The facts of this case, that being that she drugged him, strangled him, put him in a bathtub, dismembered him, and then distributed his body parts. How was she reacting? What was it like to sit next to someone day after day who's accused of killing her own son? Well, keep in mind, by the time it got to trial in May, she had heard these allegations over and over and over again.

Either by my predecessor or from reading the reports or from reading various police agency memos. So it was no surprise. I mean, nothing that came out of the trial was a surprise, because we knew it. We knew that's what their theory was. We knew that's what they were going to try to prove. So she was a very, very helpful client.

She was very attentive during the trial. She took voluminous notes. She was very helpful in poking holes in different witnesses testimony. she sat there stoically she was very very like i said i don't want to repeat myself she was very ten of she was very helpful and she exhibited extreme courtroom decor going to trial what was your argument you said you knew what they were going to argue what was your argument going to be as to why their version of events to net up

well like i've already indicated there was no reason for to do it not at all to she didn't have the physical strength to do it and three what mother on earth does that you know i mean i've had cases where there was self-defense a child was abusing the parents or siblings were abusing each other

things escalate and someone picks up a knife for someone picks up a gun and then you know there's a tragedy but none of that happened in this case and i still lay awake at night thinking what was the jury thinking? Why would she do that? Some acts are far too inhuman to have an explanation. Some cases are far too outside the norm to be able to assign a reasonable motive. Well, this is one of them. The only person that could possibly tell

us what happened inside Ramsey's Scrivo's condo between the dates of January 25th 2014 and January 30th 2014 was Donna Scrivo herself. Defendants, especially in murder trials, rarely testify and they are not obligated to. But on Friday, May 15th, 2015, Donna Scrivo was called to the stand by her defense attorney, Mark Hadad. It's very rare. I could probably count on one hand, the client who did take the stand. Typically, I would advise against it, as I did in this case.

I thought we had plenty of reasonable doubt without her taking the stand she didn't do herself any favors she didn't survive cross-examination very well and she was pushed to anger a few times by the prosecutors aggressive cross-examination you know if life came with do-overs and i had one that's probably one thing i would do in the case would probably have done more to dissuade her from testifying.

But ultimately that decision is up to the defendant. Ultimately it's the client's decision. Most of the time they take your advice. And most of the time it's a no-brainer. Most of the time if you have a defendant that has a prior history of involvement with the police, prior troubles. It's easy. You don't take the stand because then that stuff can come out.

Donna was clean. She had nothing in her background that would suggest any aggression, any violence, any felonious behavior. She was squeaky clean. So that was off the table. I thought we had enough reasonable doubt before she took the stand, but she insisted and it's her right. And on the stand, under oath, Donna doubled down

on the story about a masked intruder. I can paraphrase it. I might forget detail because there been a number of cases sent to them, but essentially she testified that she came home one afternoon and noticed and nods smell in the condo and saw the stranger standing over her son's body. She surprised him obviously. He pointed a gun in her direction and said something to her like you're not supposed to be here

I didn't expect you to be here. I'm sorry you're here, but you're gonna do everything I need you to do and then he took over from there And he stayed there several days as I recall it was he who placed the body in the bathtub directed her placed the body in the bathtub. Directed her, told her to drive him. He was on the floor in her SUV, again with a gun, to the home improvement store to get a saw so they could dismember the body. And he told her where to make the cuts and how. And then when that saw malfunction,

they got back in the SUV and got another one. And this happened multiple times before they finally got one that worked. And then, uh, direct is heard to go out to the rural area on the county and told her where to dump the parts. There was even a time they stopped for gas because she was low on gas. According to the story, Donna told her attorney. This masked man who had killed her son waited in the car with a gun hiding while Donna went inside the gas station to pay for gas, pump it, and then

return to the vehicle. After they got back and everything had been completed, he disappeared and she never saw him again. Donna told the jury that on January 26th she went upstairs after doing some laundry. She noticed the front door was a jar on her way up, and then found a masked intruder in Ramsey's bedroom. According to Donna's testimony, the intruder addressed her by name, stating, Mrs. Scrivo, I didn't know you were here. He had a gun, but because he did not want to make too much noise, he'd given Ramsey a mixture of bleach, Xanax, and Coca-Cola to drink. According to Donna,

after she tried to reach for the gun, the man put her in her bedroom, handcuffed her with cushioned handcuffs, and put a scarf in her mouth. At this point in the story, she claims she heard Ramsey, who had somehow maintained consciousness despite the lethal dose of Xanax in his body. Y'ell, what are you doing? The masked man responded, I'm killing you. You're ruining Frank's life. You're making us look like assholes. This alleged masked intruder was, according to Donna, an associate of Frank Werners.

The man Ramsey was on probation for assaulting. Throughout the testimony, Donna insisted she did not kill her son. In fact, she claimed quite the opposite, stating, I am an overprotective mother. I am not ashamed of it. I loved my son dearly. There are a number of reasons defense attorneys almost always encourage defendants not to take the stand. The burden of proof after all rests on the prosecution, not the defense. Furthermore, when defendants take the stand, they are no longer protected against self-incrimination by the fifth amendment. And then, there's always the concern that a defendant might say something outrageous, something that

could dismantle an entire defense. On the stand, Donna claimed that the masked intruder who killed her son and held her captive had red and yellow or red and gold eyes. When she got up and testified against her attorney's advice, what led her open to the prosecutor's questioning and at that point, she told a very ridiculous story about this imaginary intruder. You know, at one point in the post morning,

she said his eyes glowed green and gold, red and gold, and we were like, what? On Monday, May 18th, 2015, Donna's testimony continued. And this time, it was all recorded. Donna, we're going to pick up where we left off on Friday, but before I start asking any questions, I will again ask you, I will besiege you to keep your voice up. You have a very soft voice that microphone in front of you is misleading because it doesn't amplify. This is theater in the round like in the old Roman days. It is a bit ironic that Donna's defense attorney would choose to bring up the old Roman days.

You know, back when fathers had a legal right to have unwanted children killed. Anyway, before we broke Friday, I was about to ask you a question about the intruder that killed your son. Did you recognize anything about that person's voice? No. Did you recognize anything about the person's gate or the way he walked? No. Did you recognize anything about the person's gate or the way he walked? No. Did you recognize anything about his mannerisms? You believe you had ever seen that person before? I don't think so. So this masked man who addressed Donna as Mrs. Scrieveau and knew the names of her family members was a complete stranger to her.

What happened after he killed your son? He drove me in there by my hair and I don't want to go. And he made me be sure he'd be my son was dead. And I was kind of rich for empty. He didn't want to go in my hair and he kept yelling at me. Where was Ramsay's body? It was half-deficent, time's dead in his bedroom. And he went breathing.

How are you certain he was dead? I didn't think I'd breathe, and I went first to his chest. The moon was crying, saying, breathe. And I could try to reach for him. And he didn't let me. Then he told her that if she didn't do what he said, he would kill her nieces, her nephews, and her eldest son, Jason. And the man had a gun. He said the man had a gun. He had a gun. We describe it. I know it's a pistol color brown color metal color

What happened next Donna starts to mumble and trail off Something she does frequently throughout her testimony But if you listen closely you'll hear her say something about seeing little men with red and gold eyes. When she finishes, her defense attorney audibly sighs before asking the next question. I started seeing the little men wearing red and gold eyes, washing in front of me, and I kind of, I don't know what happened, but I asked if this was all. And do you believe that was a hallucination?

They are, I know it was. I don't know when I'm thought to end. While you were questioning her still, there were just some aspects of the testimony that I couldn't wrap my head around. And one of the biggest ones was, as she's talking about this masked intruder, she says that he had red and gold eyes. And then later, at some point, she said that she was seeing little men with red and gold

eyes, or red and green eyes. And you asked her about it. And she admitted that the latter of those was a hallucination. And what if she admitted that the latter of those was a hallucination and what if she was in the hospital? and so if she was having severe hallucinations during this time frame how are we supposed to know where the hallucinations end and reality begins with this whole story? as I recall, none of the hallucinations happened

until after she was in custody being guarded by an officer and I guess the response to that is when you see something and have to participate in something that horrific, it stays with you. And I don't think it would be any big surprise that some would call it bad dreams, some would call it nightmare, others would call it hallucinations.

It's horrific. Though she was having hallucinations similar in imagery, and she had them while she was in custody after the fact. How do we know that the hallucinations started in custody and that they hadn't started during that five-day period? Well, we can surmise because the boy was killed, the boy was lifted into a bathtub, no hallucination or image did that. She wouldn't have the physical strength to do that. So it seems to me something else is

a foot. Sergeant Eight told us about another of Donna's hallucinations and suggested a different possible explanation. When she had gone because she felt she needed to be transported to the hospital because she was having chest pain. So we had obviously we had an officer that was guarding her and she told the officer in the hospital like, oh did you see that little black man?

There's a little man dressed all in black. Did you see him and deal with nobody else in the room. So you know, at some point, you know, she was kind of setting herself up for an insanity case and then she was like, you know, maybe I can pull it off and say that he killed himself and during the interview we gave her those options and it was like, what happened? Like did he die? I know you're a private person because person because he told himself and you just caught him off

because you didn't want the embarrassment. And she denied, you know, we gave a several plausible explanation, but you know, she didn't bite on any of them. I will say that whether or not you believe any of it, there are times where it seems like she genuinely thinks these things happened. And if these events didn't happen, then that means she's either severely delusional or incredibly manipulative. Do you think that she really believes that these things happened?

No. We've been, and even from like her family members, they even believed that she was incredibly manipulative, that she had been at wear whole life and that was kind of the take on it. She had her psychological examination and they said that she was, you know, same-backed couple both for not only that she, you know, that she was seen enough to stand trial, but that she was pal enough to stand trial, but that she was comfortable for actions. About what time did the intruder kill Ramsey?

I was trying to come my time. Was it dark out? No, you know. Did the intruder remain in the cotton medium? All right, Dave. Excuse me? For five days. Well, what did he do the first day? During the big room and again,

to hide in case he cuts me, he kicked me and he just kept telling me I was going to do what he did. Yeah, I've heard that before. What did he tell you? He said he was going to cut Ramsey up the next day. He said that he was going to cut Ramsey up the next day. In order to do that, the intruder needed to go out and buy a saw. Next morning was Mindy, and we said we needed to go to get a saw. We weren't

to close, and he said, do not be stupid about this. Get in there and get it. I did. I didn't know really how to do it, but I got something. Why loads? I don't know. I have no idea. He made you go to loads? For this specific purpose of getting something? Yes. And that something was what? A saw. After handcuffing and gagging Donna in the condo, the man allowed her to walk into lows, all on her own, and pick out a saw. How nice.

And when you got to lows and you saw those big strong men working inside there, didn't she tell them this person killed my son and he's threatening me? No. Why? Well, I'll tell you right now. I'm wearing I'm sure I'm afraid I've seen my son murdered My son went to Texas was played several times Complaining to somebody coming into his home How do you know that? He told me can you or with him? No, I was not. They didn't do anything. Why didn't she tell all those

people at Lowe's what was happening? I was afraid. I don't have any faith in a fiction system. And I was afraid. An idea to get that one to say it. While in Lowe system, and I want to phrase, an idea to exactly what you say it. While in Lowe's, Donna didn't say anything about the man in her car holding her hostage, the same man who was supposedly forcing her to buy a saw so that he could dismember her son's body. Why, you may ask, because she was afraid and didn't trust the police. We went to Lowe's, got to saw, came home, and when he went to plug it in, went straight to the kitchen. And I thought it was kind of,

he seemed to know where the outlet was, and I said, have you ever been in here before, or you in your party? And he said we're coming in out of here all the time. We can't get in out of your house. We fuck with him." The man knew where the outlets were because he had been coming in and out of the condo just to mess with Ramsey. The new saw, however, was not charging. So they went back to Lowe's to exchange it later in the day. Donna testified

that she went to lows three times that Monday, exchanging different saws. According to a low's employee, she didn't mention anything out of the ordinary. She wanted something small, she was a real slight lady, so she was concerned with her hands trying to be able to handle something like that. And you know, I showed her some of the stuff we had on the wall, let her pick up what she was buying, you know, get a feel for it, and that's about it. I would say we talked probably about, you know, anywhere from like 10, 15 minutes total. How does your, uh, Savannah, same as you? She seemed kind of, I live with my mother-in-law, with my son's grandmother, grandmotherly.

Like, you know, just a real, she was polite, she was nice, she didn't seem, I get a lot of people were very pushy, a lot of people who want to prove that they know more than me. But what I saw, which sometimes they do, but now she's just, you know, asks a few questions about something that she's gonna be able to handle, what comes with it, how long, if she was to charge her how long it would take.

Really each and every stuff that you ask when you're buying a power tool. According to Donna, the masked man also found a to-do list that Donna had made and decided that they should do all the things that Donna would normally be doing that day. He told Donna to go file a missing persons report at the police station. So she went to the police station, filed a report, and returned home. They then drove together to the office of Donna's State Farm Agent to sign some forms. The man hid in the backseat of Donna's vehicle while she went to go sign the forms. Throughout all of this, in her one-on-one interactions with Lowe's employees, police officers, and her insurance agent, Donna said nothing about a man

holding her hostage. According to her testimony, on that Tuesday, Donna heard the man using the saw and smelled burning flesh. The next day, on Wednesday, he forced her to hold Ramsey's body for him while he cut, but she threw up upon entering the bathroom. That evening, as though nothing had happened, Donna went over to her in-laws place for dinner, where she said nothing about the man. Then the following day, on Thursday, the man forced her to drive her Chevy Blazer to St. Clair County to dump the body parts. They stopped at the BP gas station near the intersection of the Fredmore highway and Allington Road, and Donna had one last chance

to ask an employee for help. But again, she said nothing. So you didn't ask for help at the gas station? No, for. And the minor understand at that point, your son's remains were in garbage bags in the back of the S10. Yeah. How did they get from there to

strewn about the roadway? He did. Well, I didn't know what street that way and I heard he's here. Well, from the big key, turn right and first he could stop and least one day and put it over there. It was important. He was just pointing inside a bone or snow.

That's not an eye on him crying and he's screaming, hurry up. And by the time I open the case, since you're the wall, you each showroom pushed the bags out. One by one, seven garbage bags were pushed out of the Chevy Blazer onto the snow-covered road. Some of the bags were heavy, but others blew away, revealing their gruesome, bloody contents. After they dumped the body parts, the man decided they needed to donate the car to mother Waddles, a car donation program in Michigan. When they arrived back at the condo, the man told her to take the plates off the vehicle. The man also told her to go to the

airport and leave, telling her, you will be blamed for this. Donna testified that he threatened to kill her family members if she said anything before noon on Saturday. And then, after allegedly spending five days at the condo, the man left on foot. that you did not kill or dismember your son. Now if you're anything like me, after listening to that story, to that fabrication, you've got to be pretty worked up right about now. And if that's the case, then we have quite a treat for you. You see, the other big reason defendants rarely take the stand is that it opens them up to cross examination.

And the Assistant State Prosecutor William Cattaldo was not about to take it easy on Donna Scrivaux. So you actually expect this jury to believe that story? That's the story. That's the true. That's the whole truth. That's what actually happened. I guess I was amazed by the last piece of information that after you

don't the body, it's here, hope you're just the glove box, and pulls the title out, and has the presence of mind to say to you, we got to give this character a mother while as we got to change the title. Sir, as you talk, he gave me calm and they just ordered him to know their wildest name. You got to keep your voice up because if I can't hear you here, I know he can hear you. My wildest was calm and they before. But you didn't say that, just. You didn't say that.

You just simply said right now, he opened the title, he opened the glove box, saw the title, and that's when he said to you, we have to go to secretaries. They don't change the facts on me. Okay, I just heard it. I wrote it down. Is the story so flexible that you're going to make stuff up as we go along? Are you done? Oh, I'm just getting started.

I just came for right now, sir. I had all my allowance today before. I did it's perfect instruction. This was five days of work. Let's stop with the five days of work. I want to answer this question, OK? You had your chance and direct to repeat that over and over and over. We're going to talk about that in just a second, OK?

Because I want to ask another question. Why did he let you live? I asked my question. Why did he let you live? I asked myself, you don't think I'd rather be gone and my son here? Well, I mean, that's just it. I read the papers on Friday.

A 28 of blows through Kansas. This young couple who live in a mobile home sacrificed their lives to save their 18-month-old child. And here you do absolutely nothing to save your son, Jason, to save the nieces and nephews. You see here with these fake tears crying over. Okay? When you say a few minutes ago that you're 61 you have nothing else to live with they have their whole lives They have them then why don't you sacrifice yourself? Why don't you take a chance? Why don't you do something? Tell me what you want me to do I'm telling you what he's in the car when you're at the police station hiking in the back of your Ford escape

Why don't you go to offer some amazing thing? Officer, the killer, the intruder, is in the back seat of my car. He just murdered my son in cold blood. He put me in handcuffs. He beat me. He chained me to my bed. And he's in your parking lot. Please help me! As opposed to, uh, I want to file missing persons report. Once you take the stand, you can still refuse to answer specific questions, but you can't come down. You can't stop the interrogation. You are at the mercy of the court. Sir, I didn't want to testify.

I'm going to be confused and who's speaking. Wait, you didn't want to testify? You had a right not to testify, and you're up here. It doesn't. of the court. And for the next 51 minutes, Katoldo did not let up an inch. You saw this guy physically for five days? I don't know. You heard his voice. Yes, I did. You heard his voice for five days. You knew how he walked for five days. Yes, sir. You knew that he knew Ramsey.

Yes, sir. You knew that he knew who you were. Yes, sir. You knew that what he said was he was a friend of Frank Werners because he said to you because of what Ramsey did. Everybody thinks we're assholes. Yes sir. Do you not think that that information would have been helpful in trying to figure out who this guy is. Sir, I can. Is that a yes or no? I mean, I tried to ask to talk to my 30th and my 30th. I was for good. I'm hospital for good.

I know you want the hospital. You were feeling ill. I'm going to assume just some pressure after what just happened because after all this is not particularly A little usual. Thank you, miss today It's about being a bad first severe urinary Transformation for me dehydrated to five days. Yes Do you know how I have what kind of criteria it takes to hit somebody in the hospital three days? Do you know how are urinary tract infections? You know how hard it must have been for you to use that little saw to cut your son up.

He pressed her again and again on why she said nothing to the police about the masked man while filing the missing person's report when she talked on the phone with them or during the initial interviews. So I guess I would ask you this, why are we here 16 months later in your skill sacrificing for the man who murdered your son? Well, I'll tell you what kind of opening up because... This woke you up 16 months later? You went on a kini show, thank you for hurting me, maybe.

I'm here, yeah. So, I got a rsd, I got a pina help holding tail and fainters did all that. I went to another holding thing. But that wasn't my question, okay? I'm getting to your question. But at this Get to the Answer, we've heard the same crap. We've heard the technology crap. We've heard the, I couldn't talk right when I had a chance to talk to the police officers

for two hours because I guess I wasn't mentally ready to tell the police who the murderer was. So let's get to why are we here 16 months later? We're past all of that. I got put in mental health into their treatment. I fit there a week now, I walk down and you get in we're sitting at your table, and a young girl came up and reduced herself. And she said, like the fuck up. Nobody was going to back go in and see if you don't.

And she told me she remembered my sentence, and she told me no more famous about that. Oh stop it Dad, come on. And she told me she remembered when I it. Oh stop it that come on. And she told me she'll remember it when I used to remember it on a paper. And she stood white to fuck up and I just believed on it. Oh wait wait wait wait. Where did this person approach you and say that? I mean mental health and my contact jail hitting in the stupid little one table that we had on my house. So the police couldn't get you to do it for two hours. So this stranger at the jail comes in and swears at you and that's enough to make you realize

this whole thing has been alive that you've lived for all this time. Donna was not telling the police about the masked man because she was afraid. But she suddenly decided to tell her full story when while sitting alone at a table in a mental health unit of the McComb County jail, a young girl approached her and told her to, quote, wake the fuck up. End quote. But this was by no measure Donna's first opportunity to tell the story. So let's, let's look at the number of lies that you told On Sunday, Ramsey's neighbor Tim stopped by. Donna chatted with him at the front door. That answer to the door seemed comical. Open the door, three quarters away. And I wasn't

looking for anybody. I know that there seems to be something going on. I was Ramsey hitting home. She said, no. He never called you back. I said no she'll he's been missing he went for a walk yesterday he's been missing since 6 6 30 yesterday which would be Saturday the 25th she said she went for a walk at 6 30 and Saturday and I told you know maybe when you know whatever small talk maybe with a coffee and she says she really concerned about it. And that was it. And Tim was not the only person Donna had lied to. You lied to Tim Kreprod Sunday morning.

Yes? With the gun, 22 minutes. Yes, with that gun right at your head, because he sees you standing completely in the door. And some time. Tim's not there. And so it's fine. You can do it with car sleigh up there.

Okay. So you would need to just agree with how far wide, how far open the door was. This testimony is a pretty good look at you. So we didn't see a gun deer head, but you want them to believe that that's fine. You lied to him is my question. I did. You lied to Alice in that day. You lied to Carolyn that day. You lied to your mother-in-law that day. You lied to Cory Toller the next day.

You lied to opposite your Mason. You lied to Detective Wright. You lied to Detective Wright. Yes. You lied to Detective Rickard. Yes. You lied to Detective Roon. Yes, sir. You lied to all three of the low employees. I don't believe that whatever. Okay.

Well, I mean, look, chopping up the body is not a household project, is it? Okay. So you lied to them? Yeah. One of the oddest parts of her story is just the number of opportunities that she had to ask for help. The entire time, did she say anything at all to you to make you think she was being coerced or held. Yeah. And now, I mean, like I said, and she had that opportunity when she was in her interview with us. She had ample opportunity to, you know, to say, like, hey, this is what happens. And I was being held against my will.

And we probably at that point would have acted on it. And so like, okay, let's see what we find. But she never gave any of that up. And even during the trial when the prosecutor asked her, it's like, okay, everything is said and done. Like, this guy is gone. So why not tell the police a bad time? And she was

still she said no like you know I know I thought he was still gonna come and get me and you know and the prosecutor basically you know he just called bullshit and went out with his uh... director Vanagan's first home the assistant state prosecutor William Coutaldo also pointed out that Donna did not warn her family members about the man's threats. And you didn't sacrifice for them.

That was my point that you wouldn't have cancer before. A real person would have sacrificed for them, would have gone to the police, or would have called them up and said, hey, this is your aunt. Someone's here to murder you. Don't go to work at El Charo today. Don't go to school today. Did you not trust their parents to protect them? I trusted the guy who's told them to go into my head. Huh? I trusted the man who's told them to go into my head to the murder and cut up and cut their hair off like they

did in the ambulance. So you don't trust your, you don't trust your, your, your nephews. You don't trust your sisters and their husbands and the parents of these children to do a better job protecting their kids than you did yours. Sorry, I only did what I thought was the right thing to do as clear and strong. So the right thing to say is I would do it for each one of my nephews collectively or individually. I would do it for your children. I would want you to be near my children. Okay. Let's start with that premise.

All right. I did the right thing. The other question that Mr. Cotaldo brought up again and again was if Donna was being held hostage for these five days, why would she have kept this information from the police, from her family, from everyone she talked to? I know. I can't answer that. She explained it by saying she felt for the safety of her family, but there were opportunities and catalog focused on it,

where she was in a police station, surrounded by armed policemen, and yet didn't make mention of it, didn't ask for help. I wish she would have. There's the police, and there's the grammar police. If you're part of the latter, you'll love this next part. You regard this. There's no such word as irregardless. It just that, it irritates me.

Regardless. Just use the word regardless, okay? Regardless, Cattaldo continued poking holes in Donna's story until there was hardly anything left of it. Can you feel bad at all donating that blazer with your sons to the blood just soaked all over it? I didn't hear it. You what?

I did not have to tell it. Okay. And I thought the handcuffs thing was cute also. Well, these like SNM handcuffs. I mean, because of the hand cuff and little cushions on the inside, little first, so there wouldn't be any marks on your wrist all night. It red and black with cushion, they were weird. But he released you during the day.

I was not released unless he needed phone on when he needed just something. Except that Wednesday night, when you're with your whole family. Sir, I went out there to do that Tuesday night, and he told me, go do what you normally do, don't make any mistakes. Okay, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, So everything that she was saying about the mystery man who, you know, allegedly was keeping her house fit. Her story fell apart. On Monday, May 18, 2015, the jury reached a verdict.

Ladies and gentlemen, I've been told that you have reached a verdict. Who will speak for you. Madam four person would you please stand and render your verdict. You may read from the verdict form if you wish. Count one, first degree murder of Ramsey Scrivo, guilty of first degree murder of Ramsey Scrivo, count 2, dead bodies, disenternment and mutilation, guilty of disentermment and mutilation of a dead body. Count 3, dead bodies, removing without medical examiner permission, guilty of removing a dead body without medical examiner permission. All right, your verdict as rendered is guilty of first degree murder, guilty of disintermment and mutilation of a body, and guilty of removing a dead body without medical examiner permission. That is your verdict, ma'am, poor person?

Yes. And that is the verdict of all of you? Yes. Yes. Okay. Do you think justice was served in this case? I don't think so. I have lingering doubts about her guilt. I always have trouble with that saying serving justice. I don't know. The kid's dead. Nothing ever brings them

back. It's more like vengeance. Did the family get their vengeance? Probably. I mean, they were very close family members that turned on her and testified against her and talked about what an awful person she was. They don't get justice, they get revenge. Did they get their revenge? Yeah, she's in prison. I don't know if you ever get justice in a homicide case. And again, I have my doubts about her guilt. Don't think the use of expression, I don't think, just is prevailed.

Is there anything else you'd like to add about this case? No, I hope that her appeals are fruitful and that she gets a new trial. And I wish someone would explain. I don't know if you've interviewed anyone else in connection with this case. I wish someone would explain to me the missing pieces of the puzzle, the lack of a motive, the lack of physical strength to do this awful crime. Sometimes there are no satisfying answers. Sometimes slapping a label on someone makes us feel better.

Saying she's crazy, she must be. Who could murder and dismember their son like that? She must be crazy. But somehow, that label just isn't enough. The only motive we could possibly come up with, Donna had, she came from Texas. Prior, most in stuff in May, although year prior, she had gone and she had all this plastic surgery done because she was going to a tax reunion.

And there was a gentleman that we had found through, once we started looking into her phone records, there was a gentleman from Texas that she was corresponding with. He was actually like in some kind of liver failure. His wife had just passed. So she was really talking to him. The one aunt gave Ramsey some very expensive cigars that Donna sent to the man in Texas. I'm like, oh, I hope you enjoy these cigars. Well, this guy also had COPD.

And I was like, well, that's kind of cool. I was given somebody with COPD. You know, cigars just smoke. So, and she told Ramsey that she wanted to go to Tibet, Texas, and Ramsey did not want to go, and she thought that she could not leave Ramsey. So, if she were to get out with her life, she would have to either see the Zedogra head to be out of the way, or, you know, she was going to be stuck staying in Michigan. And then, the other big question that Mr. Haddad wanted an answer to was,

could Donna have committed this crime by herself? Or would she have needed an accomplice just to lift Ramsey's body into the bathtub? Well by the time she's putting his body in the bathtub, he's in part. All the cutting had been done. And she proved that she was able to lift those body parts. She was in a lift those body parts. He was in 11 pieces. And like I said, and I would have thought that the heaviest body parts she would have had to deal with, but have been in his buttocks and you know the kid that saw her dumping that,

she literally was shaking the body parts out of a bag. And from the other witnesses at the condo, they all said that she was definitely struggling. And the one on Patricia was like, I wonder where Ramsey is, why he's not helping her with all that heavy stuff. And personally, my thing that I think really gave it away for her. It was during the trial. And she's going out with the story. And at one point, she said that when this man was strangling Ramsey, that Ramsey was like calling to his brother Jason to help him.

Like Jason helped me help me. And with his mother, Elijah, with, you know, the mother, obviously she thought she was sitting right there while this man was strangling him. Well, I would think that he'd be calling out mom, help me, help me. So the reason why he was commenting for his brother to help him, because his mother won't

who was strangling. Not to mention he had a lethal dose of Xanax in his system. Yes, right. Is there any doubt in your mind that Donna Scrivo killed Ramsey? Oh, she killed him 100%. 100%. You know, when I was up in the detect bureau, I handled four homicides. This is, the screvo was the fourth one. And, like I said, if I was not sure, I would have continued investigating if I did not have such overwhelming evidence that was pointing to her, that was still kept going. So I have in my mind, there's no doubt whatsoever that she told them.

During Donna's sentencing hearing, she had one last opportunity to speak. She continued to maintain her innocence, pointing out what she felt were inaccuracies from the investigation and trial. But the judge was not buying her act. In response, he stated, the horrific nature of your offense is mind-boggling. You did it to your very own son.

A son that no doubt looked with trust to his mother for comfort, advice, and solace. You betrayed that trust in a most unbelievable manner. You not only murdered your son in an unimaginable fashion, but then desecrated his body in a manner only seen in Behar movies. You stand here today yet to express any remorse. You are about to receive the most severe penalty the state of Michigan has for one of its citizens. Somehow, in your case, it does not seem to be enough.

On June 30th, 2015, Donna Scrivo was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. A mother killing, dismembering, and disposing of her very own son. A son who suffered from mental illness. The kind of mental illness she herself claimed to suffer from on the stand. But were the little men with red and gold eyes real to Donna? Was the masked intruder who held her hostage and forced her to commit this atrocity, an excuse? Or was he and the threat he represented as real to Donna as the sun she killed. Had she lost touch with reality, her was the whole thing just a big lie. We will never know. The only person who can really know

is Donna herself and she'll have the rest of her life to think about it. That does it for this episode of Sword and Scale. Thank you for joining us. Before we go, if you haven't seen me raving about it on social media, then don't forget to check out the new podcast from Wondery and the LA Times called Dirty John. It's seriously one of the best podcasts I've heard in a long time. And it deals with a lot of the same themes

that our listeners here enjoy, like deceit, betrayal, and, well, I don't wanna give it away, but trust me, you're going to love it. Also, do join us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Come by and say hello. Our call in line is 954-889-6854.

You can call in and let us know what's on your mind, or email us at feedbackatsortonscale.com. Special, special shout out to Tanya, Tony, Tracy, Brianna, Boris, Lauren, Jonathan, Cal, Jen, and Faelan, who are all members of our exclusive 50 Club on Patreon. You can join us there at patreon.com slash sword and scale. So until next time, maybe send your mom some flowers

or something, and don't forget to stay safe. 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc

1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc

1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc

1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 t5% 1.5% 1.5%

1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5% 1.5%

1.5% 1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5- 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2%, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2%, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2 %, 2%, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2%, 2 %, 2 %, 2 %, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2, 3%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, Thank you.