Sword and Scale - Episode 122
Episode Date: September 16, 201851-year-old Ruth Pyne is found beaten and stabbed to death in the garage of her home in Highland Township, Michigan. Her immediate family members become the focus of the investigation, and on...e of them has a questionable alibi. Indirect evidence begins to pile up, and a jury is left with the following question: at what point does circumstantial evidence overcome reasonable doubt?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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Sort and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences
Listener discretion is advised
And you say that you left to 130 can anybody verify that you left to 130? How can we verify that? I don't know.
I can't.
This is Season 5, Episode 122 of Sword and Scale.
A show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Well, by the time you hear this episode, we should be back up and running with our store.
The store has been down now for a couple of weeks because we had to transfer all our
merch to a different place.
So if you've been waiting to get that t-shirt or mug or water bottle. It should be either up right now or coming very, very soon.
So keep checking at store.sortenscale.com.
Oh, and we will be putting up the hot sauce for general sale in the store as soon as we
relaunch it.
So watch out for that.
It's a spicy.
Oh, and one more thing.
As of this week, Swordenscale Rewind is on twice into categories.
First, there's direct evidence.
The type of evidence that directly ties a suspect to the commission of a crime.
For example, testimony from someone who witnessed a defendant robbing a bank.
Then, there's circumstantial evidence, which requires interpretation.
If a witness spotted a defendant a few blocks away from the scene of a bank robbery carrying
a sack of money, their testimony would be considered circumstantial evidence because it doesn't
quite fill in all the blanks.
There's a common myth that circumstantial evidence is somehow weak or unreliable, but
that's not exactly true.
Purpose traders are often convicted based solely on circumstantial evidence.
There just has to be enough of it to persuade a jury of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
The problem is, it's not always clear where that line is. It's a matter of interpretation, just how much evidence should
be required to cross it.
Friday, May 27, 2011, 2.30 pm. Bernie Pine and his 10-year-old daughter, Julia, returned to their home on a quiet street
in Highland Township, Michigan, about an hour outside of Detroit.
They entered the garage to find the lifeless body of 51-year-old Ruth Pine, Bernie's wife
and Julia's mother.
She's lying in a pool of blood. Ruth had been beaten until her scalp split
and her skull cracked. Dr. Rubin Ortiz Reyes, the Oakland County Deputy Medical Examiner,
would determine that she had been bludgeoned repeatedly, suffered at least a dozen blows to the head with an object resembling a two by four.
She was then stabbed 16 times in the front of her neck.
In a state of utter panic, Bernie manages to dial 911 at 236 pm.
Terror stricken and confused Bernie describes the scene in front of him to the operator.
Julius screams in the background.
For both of them, nothing about this situation makes any sense.
Julia was Bernie and Ruth Pines' youngest child.
They also had a son named Jeffrey.
How old are you? Twenty-one. So, is your name Jeff or Jeffrey? his child. They also had a son named Jeffrey. You live at the house there? Yes.
I don't know if I was going to say,
do we live there a long time?
Yeah, that's the only place I've ever lived.
In 2008, Jeff had graduated from West
Highland Christian Academy and was the
valedictorian of his high school class.
In May of 2011, Jeff was now in his third year of college
and seemed to have a bright future ahead of him.
Here's Gus Burns, a crime reporter who began covering this case after moving to Detroit in 2012. in the high school, Jillington kind of a rural suburb of Detroit, about 45 miles, or 45 minutes
dry from Detroit. A rural setting, and he was working several jobs, he was at a local farm,
and he was attending the University of Michigan, pursuing a degree in biology at the time of his
mother's death.
Do you school?
Yeah.
Well not right now, but I do go to college.
What college?
You have one, fine. What college books? You have them fun.
What would you rate your bio?
And you took one year's old, so you put two or three years?
Three years?
No, yeah, I've been there three years.
Okay, for your school to the summer?
Yes.
Okay.
Over the summer, Jeff was working part time at a nearby orchard
called Spicer Orchards, which was located about 10 miles away from his family
home. Do you work? Yes. We work. Spicer orchards. All on the Clyde Road?
Clyde in 2038. Yeah. What do you do there? Just about everything. I've been there since I was 16
on their unofficial wine maker,
make cider, work and registered.
Pretty much anything.
You look better.
Yeah, okay.
How often do you work there?
Well, one more in full season on there,
probably good five days a week.
Okay, so.
Right now we're kind of slow.
I'm only there about three.
Three. So, all three. Is it like a
schedule like you work Monday Wednesday Friday or Friday Saturday or I work
those three days? He doesn't really, my boss just makes up a schedule and it's
very soon to week. I understand you were the viewer today? Yes, I went in three.
Jeff was about to start a shift at Spicer Orchards when Ruth's body was discovered.
So, what time do you get to work today?
It's Spicers.
Got there for three.
Right before three.
Can you start at three?
Start at three.
Yeah, I usually get there about 10 minutes.
Punching at a time card.
Oh, okay.
And what were your responsibilities today?
Today, if my boss didn't give me any set jobs,
I usually just call on insertion stuff.
First thing I did was, I wouldn't check the bathrooms
because usually when you come in the afternoon,
that's what you do.
So I went there and checked them.
And really the only other thing I did was
weigh up a cake of hard cider and put it in the fridge
under the bar, hook that up.
So, and then my dad called me and told me to come home.
And I just left.
What did you did to you?
I don't know. I just left. What did you did to you?
He just said, come home right now, hurry.
I asked him, what's going on?
Are you okay?
What's going on?
And he said, just get home, go safe.
So I just told my manager, I was like, my dad just called.
I got to get going. I don't know what's going on. Jeff rushed home and joined his sister and father who were sitting in the back of a
parked ambulance.
An EMS worker named Gary Bonham said Jeff climbed into the ambulance with them, but after
about five minutes, one of the doors flew open and Jeff got out.
He began crying and dry heaving, falling to the ground in agony. What did he tell you happened? He doesn't know what happened. He said he saw her
He said as you were going to be saw her by the door that she was pale and there is blood
He doesn't know what happened. What do you think happened?
I really don't know. I have no idea. I don't think she would hurt herself. She's not that
type of person. Has she ever tried her herself before? Not that I ever know of. She's never
talked to me of like suicide or anything like that. So, okay. I don't know.
Investigators spent the rest of the day processing the crime scene. They didn't find a murder weapon, but multiple hairs were found in Ruth's hands and sent
off for DNA testing.
No blood was found inside the main house, with the exception of the right handle of a
tub in the first floor laundry room.
The extent of Ruth's injuries caused Dr. Reyes, the medical examiner who conducted the
autopsy,
to refer to the murder as overkill.
Based on the wounds themselves, can you tell anything about the person who committed this crime?
In phonetic pathology, it's called over-healing, because the injured is at the beginning
where enough to kill this person.
But whoever did it was upset.
Can you say that that person is enraged?
Yes, could be enraged.
Does that indicate some kind of relationship between the people?
It's possible.
When killers cause such extensive, unnecessary injuries,
it is often the case that they harbor a high level of anger
and frustration towards their victims.
The nature of Ruth Smirter caused investigators to look closely at the two individuals who
were closest to her, her husband, Bernie, and her son, Jeff.
The massive amounts of head trauma, the multiple stab wounds, those are indicative of rage.
Those are indicative of a personal relationship with the victim.
Bernie told investigators that he was having an extended lunch with his manager at a restaurant called Highland House,
from 11.45 a.m. until 2 p.m. At which point, he left to pick Julia up from school.
Bernie's manager, as well as employees of Highland House, would eventually confirm Bernie's
alibi, and investigators would rule him out as a possible suspect and his wife's murder.
On the evening after Ruth's body was found, her son Jeff was brought in for an interview
at the Oakland County Sheriff's Office with detectives Dave Hendrick and Greg Glover. And we put the groceries away. She went upstairs to lay down and I was just chilling waiting to go to work and I decided
I'm going to go over and take care of some sufferers' need them before I go to work because
I was kind of bored and I was hitching for something to do.
Diane Needham was a former high school teacher of Jeff's,
who lived a few miles down the road from his house.
According to Jeff, he'd been working for her
for about four years, taking care of whatever she needed
around the house.
What kind of work did you do for today?
Today I just went over and transplant some myelites for.
And I soaked up a little bit in the basement and then I had to take it on to the spicers.
Okay.
What time did you work for today?
What time did you go to?
I got over there about 130 and I left a little after 230.
Did she ask you to come over today?
No, she was gone for a few weeks.
She went to South Carolina.
She was supposed to get back to the 19th.
I've been over there a few times since the 19th.
I haven't seen her, but I just go over there whenever I can, really.
Okay.
How do you get into the house?
Actually, I gave me a key.
To the key we're house?
Yes.
Okay.
It's very typical of our marmory thing in the house.
Not that I know of.
Okay.
So, what do you see?
What are there about 130 today?
Okay.
And then from there, you went on to spice.
Spice.
Spice is.
Okay.
Prior to the interview, investigators learned that Ruth had a difficult history with mental
illness and had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder.
The interrogators want to know how bad this had affected the family dynamic leading up to
her death.
How well does everybody in the house get on?
We'll get along really well, especially since she's been on her medication.
I don't know if my dad already told you she's bipolar.
Since I think it was about September, I got her on medication and she's been getting better every week really.
And as she gets better better everybody's relationship in the
house gets better and I understand there's a time it wasn't so good well it's
when she goes manic it puts a lot of stress on my soul and it's tough around
the house but it hasn't been that way in one time since the
tumble. I understand that there was an issue where there was some sort of fight
between the two of you and she had to get arrested. Well back? Yeah that was
a backlash on her. She was not on her medication. She was very, very manic and it was early in the morning. I
heard my parents yelling back and forth and it woke me up and I walked into
their room because the door was open and they were just screaming at each other
and she came at me, she launched out of the bed and grabbed me by the throat and started
hitting me and stuff.
But I mean, she didn't hurt me or anything.
She was manic, if she wasn't herself.
As a result of this incident, Ruth had spent two weeks in the Oakland County jail in the
summer of 2010 before being transferred to a mental health
institution. After another couple of weeks, she was allowed to return home. But the judge in
her case said she would have her arrested again if she began refusing to take her medications. where your mom came at you upstairs. Was there any bitterness going on between you and the mom at all?
It's her going to jail.
She upset with you because she ended up in jail
for the amount of time that she was there.
No, she gets upset at my dad.
She blames all of her problems on him.
On your dad?
Yeah.
Does that cause problems between you and your mom?
Over the dynamics of how things are going on at the house
Not really. I mean, I don't have a problem with my mom. I never had a problem with her
I've all I the only issue I had was I wanted her to take medicine and she
The only issue I had was I wanted her to take medicine and she nature the illness she didn't want to take it. Right. That's the only problem I ever had with her.
Which is pretty comfortable by poor people. Right.
It doesn't get to a point where also they could take it.
Yeah, they they well they feel good when they're not taking it.
It's kind of like a drug high. Right.
So it's hard to get him to stand still.
Ruth's mental issues had been putting a strain on the family for years.
When we talk about the connection between violence and mental illness, it's important not
to forget how common it is for individuals suffering from mental illness to become victims
of violent crime. According to the US Department of Health and Human Services, someone dealing with a
severe mental illness is over 10 times more likely to be a victim of violent crime than
the rest of the population.
Investigators were trying to figure out if Ruth's mental illness had been a factor in
her death. If maybe it had caused some degree of resentment
within her own family.
Hello, she had issues.
Well, first I heard back when I was seven,
she was more depressed than a son,
like by a polar year depressed and manic.
She was more depressed at that time. For a few years and then
my sister was born in 2000 and she was good up until about 2008. Right after I graduated high school
and she just went manic. It would change. She wasn't depressed anymore. She just got crazy.
I get to change. She wasn't depressed anymore. She just got crazy. Just hyper, just all over the place.
Any such issues of benign medication? Yes. You won't kind of medication she's been there? She was on depacote. The the doctor wanted to switch it to I don't know what the name of the new
stuff was. Apparently it doesn't have any side effects.
So that's why he was switching her.
Okay.
So.
And how long were she switched medications?
How long were did she switch medication?
Just recently, she, I believe, was in the past a week.
Okay.
So.
Alright.
And things were starting to get better.
Things have been getting better for a long time.
Just by week.
The longer she's on the medication, the better she gets.
Okay.
Jeff, was there ever a time in your relationship
between you and your mom?
The toward that you ever felt like that?
Because of your mom's condition,
she was damaging the family.
I mean, damaging the relationship that you have with your...
No, I mean, it was tough. I mean, when she would go mad at you and everything, but
all they ever wanted was to get her medication.
I finally got her on that and she was taking it and
thinking about it. I mean, she would come to my dad and show him.
So I can take in my pills every night.
So did she think what she'd been, you know,
agitated or unedged at all this week or the last couple weeks?
Maybe the past few days, but I mean, we just attributed that
to the medication switch.
I mean, she was... We described her... Kind of... Kind of. the medication switch. Let me choose.
We describe a reaction to him. Kind of.
I don't really know how to.
Like a little bit on edge, a little bit paranoid.
What was she paranoid about?
Just like bank counts.
Like she didn't like that.
My dad called and told me I should me I should call the banks and stuff.
And trying to find out if stuff wasn't her native or whatever.
But my dad switched a lot of things when she was crazy because he didn't want her to take things
and take a bunch of money out and just blow it on whatever. According to Jeff, his mother's paranoia about money had led her to become violent in the past.
She ever accused you of doing anything with any money or credit cards or anything like that.
Long time ago back in 2009, this was back when she first started getting really manic.
I took her to a doctor's appointment and then on the way back the doctor suggested that
we get some sonomax, help her sleep.
And I went in, she gave me her debit card.
We went in, I got, I went in, I got the sonomax for it, came back, gave her a card, gave it to the summex,
we drove home and later that night she thought that I stole her debit card from her, which
I hadn't, I'd given it back to her in the car, she was just being manic, you know, and she
just got really angry.
I was telling her, no, no, I didn't do it.
I didn't take it.
And that was the first time that she hit me.
She just opened her hand and like smack me across the face.
And Julia was there.
She, I don't think she saw it, but she heard it.
She was at the bottom of the stairs.
In the same way he described his mom's attempt to strangle him, Jeff brushes off this incident,
insisting that it was no big deal.
How did you react to your mom when she just made it?
How did you handle it?
Well, I saw her getting really mad and she started like brazing her hand and stuff.
And I stood up and just kind of put my hands on her wrists like not grabbing them
just like trying to calm her down but she just snapped and just smacked me.
I mean wasn't a big deal but it has your mom accused you of
anything goofier or something out of the ordinary in the last few days.
You say she's been paranoid with you for any reason?
No, it's mostly just the bank accounts and stuff with my dad.
It's not anything like with me. But not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, not like, He reportedly threatened to kill herself and her son on at least one occasion.
After her family petitioned to have her committed to a hospital for 60 days, she was diagnosed
with bipolar disorder and paranoid schizophrenia.
11 years later, in March of 2009, the family once again petitioned to have Ruth hospitalized.
She had stopped taking her medication and according to Bernie, thought that someone had planted
a computer chip in her daughter.
Bernie also wrote that she was striking our son for no reason.
Bernie's petition stated, she claims that her family could die and it would not bother
her at all.
In October of 2009, a psychiatrist who was treating her wrote, she is likely to deteriorate
severely and become a danger to herself and others due to her refusal to accept treatment for her
very serious mental illness. Finally, in late 2010, after her staying jail, Ruth committed herself
to staying on her medications, and things
appeared to be looking up for a change.
But less than nine months later, she was murdered.
In the hours leading up to Ruth's death, Bernie had taken Julia to school and gone to work,
leaving only Ruth and Jeff at home.
So today, let's get back to today. So today you said you got up around 10 and about 10.
What did you do when you got home?
Head breakfast, got on the computer.
It didn't have to do a whole lot.
She got home from grocery shopping and I helped her bring the groceries in and put some
of home away.
And where did she go grocery shopping in India?
That with a mire.
So is she home when you got up?
Her share had gone.
No, she was gone.
She got back, I don't know what time it was like 11, 30 or noon, something like that.
Who was home when you got there?
Whoever went to get up was anybody else home?
No, it was just me, to shoot.
Okay.
So then she got back and you know, put the groceries away.
And then you said,
at some point she went upstairs and laid down.
Was that right away after she put the groceries?
What she did before she went up the room.
She was in the living room.
I think she was reading.
She was in there for a little bit.
And I know she went upstairs lay down
because when I left, that's where she was.
So was there any issue bush-yups that I bought anything?
Are they okay when you left?
No, everything was fine.
Did you know you were leaving to tell you were leaving?
Yeah.
According to Jeffrey, he, I believe, had helped his mother with groceries and then got into his car and
Went over to a neighbor's house
It was actually a former teacher of his who we helped around the her yard with different types of landscaping and bad jobs
You're supposed to go
He claims that he went over there to plant some lilac bushes and then from there
He went off to work and then in meantime, he claims that his mother was killed
after he left the house.
And you're sure you left your house at 1.30?
Yes, sir.
Did your mom was upstairs and bad when you left?
Yes, I told her I was going to the police house
and she said, all right, I'm trying to find
dinner for you to get in here.
I said, yeah, I'll be here after work."
According to Jeff, there wasn't any tension between him and his mother that morning.
It was nothing to suggest that she was upset with him or anyone else.
There was no altercation or a marble set upset or anything today before you left? No, she was fine.
The gave her a hug after we put the groceries away and it was just fine.
Is there anything that we haven't asked you?
I mean off the top of your head that you think would be important to this investigation
or anything at all. How would your mom have any enemies?
Not really. I mean,
she didn't really have any friends,
so that kind of eliminated her having enemies.
That makes sense.
I mean, who do?
Is there anybody that you can think of that's capable of harming your mother?
Or anybody out there that you can think of that would want to harm your mother?
I can't.
I mean, she's just so nice to me now.
Really nice lady.
I think of me. Really nice lady. If they were me, does she go anywhere other than home and shop?
Does she hang out with anybody?
No, she used to have some friends that she would go get lunch with occasionally, but she
hasn't done that for a long time.
Back before 2008, you've ordered those.
As Jeff speaks with detectives, both of his hands are wrapped in white bandages.
What's your hands?
This is from work today.
I was flipping over a pallet.
I went to check the bathrooms.
And if I was flipping over my hand got caught in there just to
off the scene. Jeff pulls back the bandages revealing two blisters each the size
of a quarter at the base of his index fingers. skin hanging on it and I just like peeled it off. Wash my hands, put some alcohol swab on it.
That was it?
Well I put it on a bandage at work but the lady in the ambulance, I got here, she gave me this.
Oh okay.
And that was for a pallet work?
Yeah, was that pallet work the bathroom you said?
Yeah, it was around the back. Just as you're walking to it, I just put my back on the
stack there and got my hands caught. So, is it a wooden valve?
Did you bleed a lot or just a little bit or not? Not really. I just, it got really red.
And so, I was going to the bathroom, so I just rushed to the bathroom and washed my hands
off with some paper towel on it.
Then went into the break room, got the medical kit.
Later in the interview, the detectives also noticed some scratches on his arm.
It looks great just on your forearm.
These, yeah.
I get scratches up a lot from work.
This was, let go get out of the pan and we had to catch him.
And I'll go.
Yeah, we have probably a good petting farm.
And there's a new setup and the one goat always gets out.
Hand injuries caused by lifting a pallet, scratches resulting from an escaped goat, sounds
like a pretty rough day at the orchard.
Anyway, up until this point, Jeff hadn't been told the details surrounding his mother's
death.
He knew she was dead, but he hadn't yet been told that she was murdered. Jeff, you have no idea how your mound died or what?
Your mound was murdered.
Someone chose a mound.
Well, the one thing that came up was that when they revealed to him, supposedly he shouldn't have known that his mother had been murdered,
and they tell him that his mother had been murdered. Any kind of puts his hand down or a face down into his hands and didn't immediately show any drastic reaction or
ask what had happened to her.
It's not an accident. We need to get to the bottom line. So if there's anything
else that you know about, that you've been holding back. That they were afraid to tell us.
That was the time.
Okay.
I don't know what to tell you.
So we don't know if anyone who would want to heard.
We're going to ask you some pretty tough questions, okay?
Okay.
Did you have any altercation with your mom today?
No.
No.
Nothing at all.
No. Okay. No type of fighting, but a No, not at all. No.
No type of fighting, but I argument, hey, no, I didn't.
And razor blade, me and I didn't argue today.
Okay.
And you say that you left at 130.
Can anybody verify that you left at 130?
How can we verify that?
I don't know.
Again. If Jeff's recollection is accurate, then he left Diane Needham's house at 1.30 p.m.
Bernie and Julia came home at 2.30 p.m.
This leaves a 1 hour window during which someone other than Jeff could have killed Ruth.
But unfortunately for Jeff, there was nobody else who could corroborate
his alibi. It's easy but You know wave to you wave anybody
And you're sure you love your house at 130. Yes, sir
Your mom was upstairs and bad when you left. Yes, I told her I was going
to the ladies house and
She said all right Which I planted her free me's it. Yeah, I'll be here after work.
What time are you supposed to be at?
I get up four at six.
What was she doing for dinner?
I don't know.
I don't know.
In these type of cases, our goals
we got to clear the family out first, okay?
Right before we get home, we'll out to everybody else, we got to clear the family out first, okay, before we get to move out to everybody else,
and then we can freely share information back and forth with you, with your dad, and
everybody else.
One of the ways that we do that, that's the quickest way, is a polygraph test.
We will take a polygraph test, so we can clear you out.
Okay, yeah, sure.
Okay, all right.
I'm married
to taking one, but true. Well, I mean, basically it's all about telling the truth. I mean,
the half a dozen questions, yes, no answers, and you tell the truth and you pass 100%.
I mean, you think you'll be able to pass it? Yeah. But forgive me, one Jeff, but how do you think you're doing?
I think I would pass it.
It is not clear whether or not they ever actually administered this polygraph test.
But even if they had, the results of a polygraph test are typically not admissible in court in the state of Michigan.
It's pretty thing you also, as you can think of, that anybody that might want to do something like this, court in the state of Michigan. and I don't.
We have a problem with agriculture, I mean, who, your mom is a stay-at-home,
from information we've gathered,
does not have a bunch of friends,
she doesn't have any enemies.
Why would somebody
pick your home
in a very short time period and harm your mom? I don't know. Towards the end of the interview, Jeff is once again asked to describe what caused the
injury to his hands. to the place back on there. And it's going to be really bad to pull my hands up quick.
Remember Ruth Pine was most likely beaten with a 2x4?
With that in mind, the interrogators continued to press Jeff
on the details of his story,
photographing his hands as they questioned him.
Did it pull the skin off of your hand?
Yeah, it tore it up.
I mean, did it pull?
I mean, all the skin that's off of your hand
Or did it pull that skin off of your hand? Yeah, so then there's some tags. I just pulled the tags off
Is that
Were they nails that you crammed a hold of nails? No, I grabbed the I guess I'm trying to go again
Is what I mean what would have actually pulled that amount of skin off you off of your hand?
I don't know.
I mean, my hand got caught in as I was.
I mean, I've moved a lot of pals before and I've never, you know, worked in the wood
grabs, you might get a sliver or something, but I've never had an injury from a pallet
like that.
I was tossing on there and my hand got caught and I just pulled back.
Did anybody else there helping you move those palets at all?
No, I was on the way to the bathroom.
Once again, nobody was around to corroborate Jeff's story.
Detectives Hendrick and Glover maintain a friendly conversational tone, but it's clear
they're growing more and more doubtful of what Jeff is telling them.
Jeff, I'm going to ask you a tough question.
Here today.
Okay.
Did you do anything today at all, Bertramon?
No. No. Any way, Hirschemann?
No.
No.
Did you have any arguments with your mom today?
I didn't say anything hurtful to her.
I did nothing.
All right.
No idea what?
I have no idea what it was.
I...
I can't...
You're somebody dead.
I've had a hard enough time.
Okay, somebody singled your mom out today.
He committed a violent act today.
Against your mom, for a reason that we can't explain.
That's why we're asking the questions that we're asking it.
I mean, we have a lot of questions and not a lot of answers.
questions and not a lot of answers.
And we know what he can tell us.
Why somebody would do this to your mom.
And see what your mom ought to want people.
By the end of the interview, Jeff's story was stretched pretty thin.
He was sticking to it, and investigators didn't have any direct evidence to tie him to the
crime scene. The murder of Ruth Pine disrupted the perception of the Pine family that many people had prior
to May of 2011.
From the outside, somebody doesn't know them.
I mean, they look like your typical ideal family.
The kid to go into one of the best universities in Michigan.
He was a valedictorian.
The family in pictures looks like they get along great.
He's got a little sister he cares about, and then something like this happens
It totally destroys a family that is otherwise seemingly perfect, and I think that just kind of
Tendon jarring type of a situation
Roughly five months after Jeff was interrogated at the Oakland County Sheriff's Office
The case was reviewed by a citizens grand jury
Witness testimony before the grand jury provided enough evidence to bring charges against Jeff.
On October 12, 2011, Jeff was indicted, and on October 25, he was arraigned on a charge
of first-degree murder.
After his arraignment, Jeff's defense attorney, James Champion, pointed to Jeff's lack of criminal history and
urged the judge to set a bond stating, you'll find no finer than Jeff repined.
Assistant state prosecutor John Skrzysinski responded by saying, I doubt very much his mother
stands behind him since he murdered her.
Jeff was denied bond.
The trial began in November of 2012, and Jeff pleaded not guilty.
To discuss the trial, we got in touch with Dave Phillips, who at the time was working
as a court reporter for a local newspaper called The Oakland Press.
If memory serves, I think it was actually the first court case that I covered in depth.
I had covered cops before this. So that's more like
the day-to-day breaking stuff. So I actually wrote about it when it first happened to, but surely
before the trial started, I got switched over to cover courts. So I, that was the first big trial
that I covered. According to Dave, this trial wasn't quite as straightforward as most.
It wasn't quite as straightforward as most.
The prosecution argued that Jeff killed his mother out of frustration after putting up with years of chaos and alleged abuse. Prosecutors at least presented in their case that they think toward the time leading up
to this killing that they think he sort of started to change his personality a bit and
became a little more extreme.
There were certain things that were presented in the evidence as showing that
maybe his character had changed a bit in the month leading up to the killing.
Gus Burns, the crime reporter you just heard from in the first half of the episode, was
also in the courtroom for much of Jeff's trial.
The prosecution basically alleged that he was fed up with the way his mother had been acting.
They had at least one
run in with police that his mother I believe was arrested due to a domestic situation that
resulted from from her having a mental illness and then it just seemed that they were trying
to say that he had snapped a little bit after dealing with this stress for so much time.
In the words of assistant prosecutor John Scresinski,
this was an angry, angry killing,
and the result of years and years of living
with a difficult bipolar person.
And he hit her in the back of the head.
And he hit her again.
And again, and again, and again, and again, and again,
and again.
In response, the defense argued that there simply wasn't enough evidence to convict Jeff
of murder.
In his opening statements, defense attorney James Champion told the jury,
"...the question is not, could he have done the crime?
The question is, did he commit this crime beyond a reasonable doubt?"
In an attempt to answer that question, the prosecution began calling witnesses to the
stand on November 16.
Detective Dave Hendrick, one of the detectives who interrogated Jeff in the hours after Ruth's
body was discovered, testified that he tried to recreate Jeff's injuries himself using
wooden pallets.
After picking up pallets about 20 different times, however, he was unable
to replicate the hand injury. On the stand, he also noted that during the interrogation,
Jeff didn't ask a single question about his mother's death.
After you left the interview, did he ask you what had happened to his mother?
He never asked a one question about his mother at all at any time
He didn't ask what happened which is something you would think would what happened
If you didn't know what happened you'd say how or what happened or something like that and
That was one of the big keys that they keyed on was that he didn't say anything like that
He didn't show much emotion but I know his defense attorney said you know people show emotion in different ways and
and feel the things in different ways and maybe this was just his way of dealing with it.
Detective Hendrick recalled that when Jeff started crying after being told his mother was murdered
his eyes weren't red and there were no tears. In other words, it did not appear to be real.
It appeared to be an act or for show.
Paramedics Amy McIntosh and Gary Bonham both made similar observations when Jeff was
crying and moaning at the crime scene, testifying that they didn't see any tears and thought
that Jeff might be putting on an act.
In addition to outlining some of Jeff's strange behavior, the prosecution began to focus
on the injuries to his hands.
So that was another interesting part.
He has these big blisters on his hands.
We saw pictures in the evidence of a shown surgery of these big blisters he had on his hands.
The prosecution theory was that so Ruth was hit with a two by four
part of what ultimately killed her.
Their theory is that he got these blisters messaging two by four.
I don't know if he was stabbed several times too so that might have been part of their
theory too.
He said that he got it.
He worked at a protocol correctly in Apple orchard.
And there were pallets there, and he said that he got it by setting a pallet on top of
the stack and the pallet kind of slipped in his hands.
But no, the prosecution didn't think that that was very believable.
Will Cartwright, Jeff's boss at Spicer Orchards, testified that he had seen Jeff's injuries
at work that day, and didn't find Jeff's boss at Spicer Orchards testified that he had seen Jeff's injuries at work that day,
and then found Jeff's explanation convincing.
Did he tell you anything about these injuries?
Yeah, he told me that he threw a pallet, didn't seem odd, but I-
Why did it seem odd to you?
Well, just quick glance, I looked at it, and thought, it looks more like a roll-burned.
Jeff's alibi came under heavy scrutiny during the trial.
When Diane Needham, Jeff's former teacher who had hired him to do housework was called
to testify.
She stated that she had left town for a trip in May of 2011, but that she returned home
on May 19, eight days before the murder.
Jeff's alibi was that he had been transplanting lilacs for Diane when his mother was killed.
But she testified that she was positive.
He had already transplanted the lilacs on May 23rd, four days earlier.
She also recalled that she mulched the lilacs on May 24th, and on the 27th, she was out
of the house all day but Jeff had left her a
voicemail at 2.41 pm stating that he'd been over to her house transplanting lilacs.
I remember one bit of evidence that was introduced was that he called her at some point during
or near when they think the killing may have occurred called the woman who he was taking
care of this plant for who was out of town and said,
hey, I just left your house and took care of everything.
It was kind of a long rambling message if I remember correctly.
On the stand, Diane Needham recalled thinking that the voicemails were unusually detailed,
and she was sure the lilacs had already been transplanted.
She did, however, admit that Jeff could have been at her home that day.
She remembered leaving her front door unlocked when she left in the morning, and it was
locked when she returned home.
Two of Diane's neighbors, who were outside doing work all day, testified that they did not
see Jeff or his car at Diane's house that day.
And one testified that the Lilacs had been transplanted earlier in the week.
Dr. Terry Melton, a laboratory director at Penn State University,
testified the hairs found on Ruth's hands contained mitochondrial DNA,
matching the profile of Ruth Pynne. However, this particular type of DNA
is passed down from mother to child,
meaning that it was also a match for Jeff Pine.
According to Dr. Melton, there was a 99.9% chance
that the hairs came from either Ruth
or a member of her immediate family.
So either Ruth had pulled some of her own hair out
while attempting
to defend herself, or she was attacked by a family member. On December 10, Jeff's girlfriend
of two years Holly Freeman took the stand for the prosecution. She told the jury about
some of the symptoms of Ruth's mental illness.
She believed her medication was sorcery and witchcraft and therefore it was evil. She mental illness.
She testified that Ruth was opposed to her relationship with Jeff because Holly was
not a virgin.
At some point Ruth became aware that Jeff and Holly were having sex and told Jeff that
she was disappointed in him.
Holly told the jury that Jeff was always very reserved, but that the stress caused by
his mother would slowly build up until it caused an emotional breakdown.
What I remember from testimony was that Jeff Repine was having a hard time dealing with his
mother's mental illness and he shared a lot of that with his girlfriend at the time.
So, study would come over and kind of cry under shoulder about what was happening at home.
You see in the interrogation he tells the detective that his mother has been on medication
for about I think it was about six to eight months leading up to the death and he tells the detective that his mother has been on medication for about six to eight months
leading up to the desk.
And he says the things were getting better, but she had a long history of being bipolar
and manic.
And later it was revealed, I think that the rate to do it was like store knives in her
bed and talk about religion.
It seems a lot of people with mental illness tend to do.
And it was a time he was, he apparently,
according to his girlfriend,
had some concerns about his little sister
because she was being home taught by the mother
what the time was mentally fragile.
Holly told the jury that Jeff was often worried
about his younger sister's safety.
And she didn't think that the home was a safe environment, either.
I did not think it was a good idea for Julia to ever be left along with Ruth and the
house.
In March of 2011, Holly found out that Jeff had been cheating on her.
I was completely thrown off.
In what way? Because to me, Jeff was the perfect guy, the perfect son, the perfect boyfriend.
And that was the first time ever that I had ever had a reason to doubt him. And that was as a result of his cheating? Yes, because he lied so effortlessly to me, to my family, to my friends.
Jeff and Holly broke up, but in April they started dating again.
Just before noon on May 27th, the day of the murder, Holly had received a text message from
Jeff telling her that he loved
her.
She didn't hear from him again until 2.30am on May 28th.
At which point, he called and told her his mom was dead, but that he, his father, and
Julia were all right.
Holly told the jury that he was calm as he spoke to her on the phone. Later that day, Jeff went over to her house and became emotional.
I miss Freeman, you were telling us that Jeff had come over to your house on Saturday,
the 28th, and that you had been holding him and consoling him as he was talking about
what had happened the night before.
Is that correct?
Yes.
All right.
And you said that you saw the bandages on his. Is that correct? Yes. All right. And you said that.
You saw the bandages on his hands at that point.
Yes.
And he was crying.
You said as he was, as you were holding him?
I believe so.
And then when you saw the bandages,
would you tell us again what happened?
I let go of him.
And I said, what are those? Did his demeanor change at that point?
He had stopped crying and that's when he told me that his hands got caught in a
pallet. Okay so he stopped crying when you asked them what are those? Yes. Okay now
you said you asked them to take the bandages off. Yes. Did you do that?
Yes. Did you say anything else to him at that point? I said
Jeff it doesn't look the marks on your hands don't look good. Did you ask him any specific questions about
What happened between him and his mother? I had asked him. I said, did you fight with her?
Are you fighting with her?
Are you arguing with her about anything?
And what was his response to that?
He paused for a moment and he looked at me and he goes,
are you looking at me right now?
Is that why I was insinuating?
OK, but you had asked him if he had been fighting
with his mother or arguing with her,
and his response to you was,
are you looking at me after a pause?
Yeah, yes.
Did he ever say no, I wasn't fighting or arguing
with my mother?
No.
By the time Holly came down from the stand,
the prosecution had been calling
witnesses for weeks. In dramatic fashion while cross-examining the state's witnesses, Jeff
Saturney, James Champion asked each one of them the same question.
His defense attorney, Jeffrey's defense attorney, just about every witness, his last question
was, do you know who killed Ruth Pine Pine which seemed kind of theatrical and almost
like something out of a you know a movie or something like that and a lot of
people said no I think he was trying to paint the picture that nobody actually
saw it nobody knows people have theories but nobody knows to get it.
There's an old saying that experienced trial lawyers like to use when it comes
to cross examination. Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to.
But there were a couple of, I think we were a sheriff detective who said yes,
you're client, killed, root-pine.
On Wednesday, December 12, 2012, the prosecution rested its case.
December 12, 2012, the prosecution rested its case. Jeff's attorney asked that the charges against Jeff be dropped due to insufficient evidence.
He stated, there is no physical evidence whatsoever.
There is not one bit of evidence.
Not one eyewitness who can tie Jeff to the crime scene or the homicide.
Assistant prosecutor John Scresinski reminded the court of Jeff's hand injuries,
his odd behavior after the body was discovered, and the fact that his alibi was entirely unsubstantiated.
Scresinski also pointed out that there was a clear motive, stating that Jeff, quote,
had a continued building of extreme frustration, which we see as a source of rage necessary for this
type of killing." Judge Leo Bowman decided that there was sufficient evidence for the case to go
to the jury. The defense did not call a single witness. On December 13 prior to closing arguments,
the prosecution petitioned the court to add
a charge of second-degree murder.
Well, I think that the prosecution went into it and tend to get a first-degree murder conviction.
I had to remember testimony about the way Ruth Pinede died.
And they said that basically she was hit with a blunt force object in the head, and then
after she had probably become unconscious, she was turned over and stepped 16 times in the neck so they were indicating
that there was a cooling off period there and it appeared to be a targeted killing.
And from the very beginning it sounded like there was only the first degree murder at
the same.
As the process went on, maybe they became a little unsure that they would get that conviction.
The judge granted this request, meaning that even if the jury could not
find Jeff Guilty of the level of premeditation necessary for first degree
murder, there would still be a lesser option for them to be able to convict. In his
closing arguments, assistant prosecutors Krasinski made the case that in his words, Jeff Pine is
not who he appears to be. He argued that there was an overwhelming amount of circumstantial
evidence pointing to Jeff as the killer, and finished his argument by stating,
when you put all the pieces together, the picture shows a woman who was murdered at the hands
of her son. There is only one verdict you can come back with, and that's guilty of premeditated murder.
Defense Attorney James Champion accused the prosecution of attacking the defendant's
character without proving hard evidence.
As to the blisters he stated, you're not going to find someone guilty of murder based on
wounds to the hands without having anything else to connect with those wounds.
No weapon, no evidence, at all.
In defense of Jeff's alibi, he asked the jury, why would you believe Diane Needham over
Jeffrey?
She told you she gave Jeff a key to her house.
She testified that he always locked the door behind him, and she did not, so he was probably
there that day.
In response to Holly Freeman's testimony,
champion stated,
if every kid in this country who lies about seeing someone else
when their dating is a murderer,
we have a problem on our hands.
After going through each piece of testimony,
champion concluded by saying,
nothing links Jeffrey to this scene.
To say that Jeffrey could have done it,
is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
They have to show you that he did it,
and they have no proof of that.
If he's a murderer, there are lots of murderers out there.
Jeff's attorneys weren't the only ones defending him
throughout the trial.
Numerous friends and family members
were present in the courtroom to support him.
Bernie Pine remained a steadfast supporter of his son.
Repeatedly telling media outlets that Jeff could not be his wife's killer.
I don't believe that I'm a naive, unthinking father that's just hoping that his son isn't
guilty.
I truly, I know my son, and I know he's not capable of this.
I know he would never harm his mother.
I remember the father, he clearly was supporting his son and he was not unhappy with the prosecution.
And as we're a lot of the family members of the grandmother, I believe,
tended a lot of the court hearings. So there was some tension that's revolved around that.
Before we reveal the jury's decision, spend a few seconds thinking about what you think the verdict should be.
Of course, you weren't there to hear all the testimony, but we've done our best to provide
you with an even-handed overview of the most significant details revealed throughout
the trial. You've heard the case against Jeffrey Pahn, and you've heard the arguments
made by his defense, so do you think Jeff is responsible for the murder of his mother, Ruth Pine?
And more importantly, do you think that he should be found guilty beyond a reasonable
doubt?
The jury began deliberating on Friday, December 14th.
They reached a decision the following Tuesday.
As the four person for the jury in this case,
I'd ask that you publish the verdict of the jury
as reached in the case of people versus Jeffrey Pine.
OK. in the case of people versus Jeffrey Pine.
In the people of the state of Michigan versus Jeffrey Pine, we, the jury, find the defendant guilty of second degree murder.
Despite the verdict, Bernie continued to speak out in support of his son.
I don't believe my son, whatever, harm his mother, I believe there's other suspects out there
that were never looked at, and that's all I can say.
Linda Jarvey, one of Ruth's sisters, appeared to be the only family member who spoke out
publicly in support of the verdict.
And she wanted to remind the media that her sister was not the one on trial.
She was not the monster, the media portrayed her to be.
Some justice was served by the guilty verdict today.
I am deeply saddened by my sister Ruth's senseless death.
This was a heinous crime.
Ruth Pined was a victim.
While a guilty verdict of first degree murder would have sent Jeff to prison for life, the
verdict of second degree murder left the sentence up to Judge Leo Bowman.
After his sentencing hearing on January 29, Jeff was permitted to read a prepared statement
for the court.
I hope and have faith that one day the truth will be made known and I will be acquitted.
However, your honor, I do realize that because I was convicted, you must sentence me.
And I accept this as the duty of the court.
I do however ask you for leniency and compassion in my sentence.
In doing so, considering that I have no previous criminal record, no history of violence,
that I was a productive member to the, the attending the University of Michigan,
maintaining two jobs.
Finally, I asked that you would consider the facts presented in trial.
And complete absence of evidence that connects me to this crime.
Later in the hearing, family members were allowed to read their own statements.
Bernie read a letter written by Jeff's younger sister Julia. Good afternoon, Your Honor. Dear Judge
Bulman, I'm gonna read my daughter's first. My name is Julia Pine. I am 12 years
old and I am a victim of this crime. I miss my mom Ruth very much. My brother
Jeffrey and I are very close and I miss him very much as well.
He is a great big brother and I ask you to send him home very soon to me and my dad because
we love him very much.
I don't remember in my memory of Foggy, but don't remember a tons of emotion from Jeffrey himself.
One of the times I remember getting emotional was when his father actually read his sister's
victim statement saying that she wanted her brother home.
After reading Julia's statement, Bernie read a statement of his own.
Honorable Judge Bowman, my name is Bernard Pine.
I am a victim of this crime.
I miss my wife Ruth very much, and I'm doing the best I can to raise my daughter as a
single parent.
Jeffrey is very close to his sister, and he is a wonderful son and big brother.
The jury rendered its verdict, however, nobody knows who killed my wife.
I am sure that my son had nothing to do with this, but must try to live with the verdict.
I would ask for leniency in his sentencing so that what is left of our family
can be put back together. Jeffrey has maintained employment at two jobs since he was 16 years old
and is an asset to society with a bright future ahead of him. Finally, Judge Bowman handed down his
sentence. This court sentence is to defend it to 20 years to 60 years, with the Michigan Department of Corrections.
He gets credit for 476 days.
It is also ordered that the defendant shall comply with DNA testing as an additional condition
of his sentence.
That is the sentence of this school outside of the courtroom family members
Express their frustration to the media. I'd like to say that there's but no measure of justice served
for my wife
For my son or for my family. There's no evidence
Time my son to this crime and there's a good reason for that. He didn't do it
He's always gonna. He is innocent people who are innocent don't say their guilty
I want to say this that he was convicted on a story that was based on hunches and
speculation
somewhere in the mix the presumption of innocence and the
definition of reasonable doubt was lost I can't explain that I know that I
know my son is a tender heart and I'm telling you right now he did not
commit this crime his mother's illness made him an easy target. Jeffrey, I'm his grandmother.
He would not hurt his child.
He's just not that type of a wife.
He's so gentle.
He's got such a gentle heart.
This was an overzealous prosecution
and open county sheriff's department.
I'm telling you right now my son had nothing to do with this.
This is my son needs a new trial.
The judge himself, the judge
himself said expect an appeal because he knows it was a mess in there. I'm
I'm I'm I'm disheartened. I'm disgusted. And I'm going to tell you something
else. It was a coward and a monster that did this to my wife and that's not my
son. He could never harm. Do you might have done it? I can't spit
to that. You know what? You know whose job that was? The detectives. And you know what
they did? Nothing. They looked at me and they looked at my son. They did nothing else.
They do the easy way he would never harm his mother. He'd never showed anything but compassion
and love for his mother. And September of 2013, Jeff filed an appeal based
on arguments that the trot court allowed the prosecution to present irrelevant and improper evidence,
and that Jeff was denied his sixth amendment right to effective assistance of council. In February of 2015, the Michigan Court of Appeals upheld
the conviction. In 2016, Jeff was married and prisoned to an Australian citizen named
Lena Blum, now Lena Pine, who came to the United States after hearing about his case and wanting
to exonerate him. In 2017, a Facebook page titled Free Jeffrey Pine was created, and the posts appear to be authored by Lena Pine.
On July 13, 2017, she wrote,
Hi everyone, I'm Lena Pine, Jeff Pine's sister.
I started this page in order to give you an insight into the injustice that Jeff has suffered,
being wrongly convicted and imprisoned, as well as updates
to how Jeff is doing and what is happening with his case.
That same day, in a separate post she wrote,
Jeff and I have been together for two and a half years, and we celebrated our first wedding
anniversary in February.
We are without a doubt soulmates, best friends, and partners for life.
And together, we will continue to get through all the obstacles that involved having Jeff
exonerated and bringing to justice the actual perpetrator that committed this heinous crime.
A post from October 14th, 2017 reads,
I thought that I should share a fact about myself with all of you.
I am originally from Australia and I moved to Michigan to help my husband, Jeffrey Pine, fight for his innocence,
clear his name and bring him home.
You may think I'm biased and blindly believe Jeff's innocence.
However, I am someone that is not easily convinced
of anything.
I know this case inside and out
and I can say without a shadow of a doubt
that Jeff is innocent.
I have given up my entire life in Sydney, Australia because I love my husband and wholeheartedly
believe that he has been wrongly convicted.
Proving a person's innocence, once they have been convicted, is an uphill battle.
But it is a battle that we have taken on and will not be backing down from until Jeff
is free and the guilty person is behind bars.
There are dozens of other posts on the page, providing updates on Jeff's case and arguments
as to why he is wrongfully convicted.
On July 27th of this year, Lena shared a message that appears to be from Jeff himself.
It reads, An Inspiring from Jeffrey Pine. When was the last time you took a break from your busy and hectic life for a moment of thankfulness?
It is all too easy to worry about what we don't have and forget to be thankful for what we do have.
If you're reading this, then it means you woke up today.
Something as simple as just being alive is reason enough to be thankful.
Did you have a meal today? Do you have running water and a place to live? Something as simple as just being alive is reason enough to be thankful.
Did you have a meal today?
Do you have running water and a place to live?
Many people do not, and these things we so easily take for granted and forget to be thankful for.
I've been in prison for nearly seven years.
One minute I was walking out of work and sat in my car to drive home.
The next minute I had police surrounding
my car pointing guns at my head. My freedom was taken away in a split second. This can
happen to anyone because of our failing justice system. In that split second, I no longer
had simple freedoms like deciding what I want to eat, when I want to eat, or what I want
to wear. I miss being able to wear clothes that fit me correctly, or having a choice of what
kind of clothes to wear.
Here in the Michigan Department of Corrections, you have the choice of dark blues or white
shirts and orange shorts.
I no longer could see or touch my loved ones, except when officers say it's okay.
There are simple things I miss like swimming, going for a drive,
going to the movies, or just having peace and quiet.
Even so, I am thankful.
Even in this place, I have been given
an amazing wife and son.
I am so thankful to have found love and family.
I have a good job in here.
I'm at one of the better facilities. I'm able to go play music.
I'm lucky enough to share myself with a bunkey who is like a brother.
The Innocence Project is working on my freedom.
I have visits with my wife and son.
I don't have good food or nice clothes, but I am alive.
And I have my freedom and life with my family coming soon.
So if you ever become complacent in life, as it happens from time to time, remember all
the things we take for granted that most of the world does not have.
Be thankful for your spouse, your kids, your friends, your health, your home, and all
the things we forget we are not entitled to.
Every day is a day to be thankful for your life.
So live it to the fullest and do something positive
to help someone who doesn't have as much as you do.
Anytime there's not a clear concise conviction
and there's room for possible doubt,
people are going to push for that,
especially if they're supporting the person who was convicted.
I feel that, um, of course, you've got a Facebook page that I was recently reading and it says, that you've got the innocence project involved. And I've seen them get involved in cases
not necessarily just because it's believed the person is innocent but because they believe they were
unfairly found guilty. So I think that probably is the case. In the fact that there was mostly
circumstantial evidence and maybe they feel the case. And the fact that there was mostly circumstantial evidence
and maybe they feel this jury aired somehow
and finding that there was enough to get rid of any reasonable
doubt.
It's no secret that our justice system has flaws.
In fact, we've exposed a great deal of them
over the course of this show.
Law enforcement officials, judges, and juries
make mistakes. The question is,
is Jeff's conviction one of those mistakes? Was he robbed of 20 to 60 years of his life?
Or did the jury simply get it right?
I really do think that, you know, during the jury there was there every day, there was
a lot of evidence that could have led them to this verdict anyway.
I'm not necessarily one to say, but I think this was on some TV shows during the time, too, I remember.
I remember thinking that some of the shows about it, trying to paint a certain picture that was, you know, they're just pulling kind of a bit of a piece
of the testimony or different little pieces
and they're not there every day.
It's hard to me to second death by jury's decision
but they were there for every single little bit of evidence.
They heard everything, they saw it all,
they had time to talk about it amongst each other.
So it's pretty hard for me to second guess what they did.
As it stands, the earliest Jeff could be released
is October 10th, 2031.
The latest he could be released is October 10th, 2071.
I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room.
I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. you you