Sword and Scale - Episode 168

Episode Date: August 16, 2020

We often think of true-crime from the perspective of law enforcement trying valiantly to pursue the perpetrator and make them face the justice system. Have you ever considered what it would be like if you were in the hot seat? What if you were the suspect in an awful crime? What if there never really was a crime committed in the first place? William Hurt and his family were dragged through the justice system back in 2012 as part of a wild goose chase. Their journey still hasn’t concluded.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Hello and welcome to season 7 episode 168 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Okay, quick update about the pins and sticker perk one more time, sorry about that. But listen, we got a lot more demand than we ever expected. So we had to make more. We put in the order in the last week of last month and it takes a while for them to be made. So as soon as they get here, we'll ship those out for the last batch of everybody

that got in at the last minute, which I did tell you not to do, but thanks anyway. So please be patient. Once we do create the label to ship your perk, you will get an automated email in whatever email you use to sign up to plus. So make sure you check for that, check your spam folder, you may want to add store at sorenscale.com through your dress book so that your emails from us won't be filtered. But we expect everything to go out within the next week or two,

you should get your perk by at the very latest The End of August. Thank you once again if you're a plus member, if you're not head on over to swordandscale.com slash plus, there's lots of perks beyond just the physical ones. You get stored discounts, early commercial free releases, and of course plus. 73 episodes of that available to you. All new stories that you have not heard on the regular feed and will never hear. Sign up right now. It starts at just five bucks a month and it really helps support the show. Okay with that said, here we go. The criminal justice system. It's a pretty elegant thing crafted over centuries of refinement.

You know, some people don't even realize that our system of law and justice predates the birth of this country by centuries. When settlers came to America, they brought English common law with them. And although there have been modifications and additions to that system, the basic structure remained. Things like precedent, which is the basic concept of relying on previously decided cases, and using those established guidelines and traditions. If you've ever heard two lawyers argue, they'll say things like Miranda v. Arizona. That's a reference to a prior already decided case that instructs the judge on how to rule

on the case before them. It's up to the judge to weigh all the various arguments for a fair decision. And if there's clear precedent, then the judge will usually rely on that previous ruling. Otherwise, he may decide to go the opposite way and in doing so create new law and set a new precedent. That's often not the case, and doing so could lead to an appeal and a reversal from a higher court. Anyway, this is starting to turn into a civics lesson, but it's funny just how many

normal everyday citizens don't even know the basics of how our system of laws and justice works. It's really quite something. Even before the English modernized it in the 17th century, the roots of law date all the way back to Greek and Roman civilizations. An ancient Greece, if you killed somebody, their family had the right to kill you. At the end of the 7th century BC a man named Draco, the first legislator of Athens, wrote a series of laws regarding intentional and unintentional homicide. The punishment for most of these cases was death. That's where the term draconian laws comes from. It refers to the overly harsh antiquated punishment for a crime. Thankfully, since then, we've made a lot of modifications to the law and our Constitution

Reflects Society that puts the rights of the individual before the needs of the state. For example, that case I mentioned a minute ago, Miranda v. Arizona. Well, that's the case where the concept of Miranda rights originated. We'll talk more about that later, but for now, all you need to know is that you should never talk to cops. They're not there to help you or be your friend. They're not looking out for your best interests when you're sitting in that hard, cold chair of their 8-by-8-foot interrogation room. Oh, and before you start constructing your angry emails, I don't care if your husband or father or best friend is a cop.

I'm not saying all cops are bad, so calm your outrage. I'm giving you good, solid life advice based on years of experience with cases like this. When you find yourself across from a cop who's asking you questions about a crime, the only thing they're trying to do at that point is to get you to slip up so they can put you in jail. That is, after all, their job, putting criminals in jail. That is, after all, their job putting criminals in jail. So if you did something, don't talk to cops. If you didn't do something, don't talk to cops. Just say it with me folks. Don't talk to cops. Ask for a lawyer and follow their advice, or you may find yourself in the same predicament

that William Hurt did. Evan'sville Indiana is sometimes referred to as Kentucky Anna. The Evansville metropolitan area includes counties in both Kentucky and Indiana. Google a map it's confusing. It is however a great example of gerrymandering. Evansville directly borders one section of the Ohio River. In the summer of 2012, 18-year-old William Hurt, an Evansville native, had just found himself in that cold, ugly interrogation room. He was talking to Kentucky State police officers about his alleged involvement in a suspected murder. This was William's first mistake, talking to police. You have to submit on make sure you understand it, okay? You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say it can it will be used to get you in court of law.

You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you or you have been questioned. If you can afford a higher lawyer, want to be appointed to represent you before any question you wish. You can decide at any time to ask the right to not answer any questions or make any statements. Okay, would you sign here to show that I read that to you? Oh, that's just dating is it. I read you to you. The last is dating. Is it, uh, I read you your, your, your, my, my rights. Okay. Now, do you want to talk to me about this incident?

But that's a mark. Oh, I got to know if you want to talk to me about it or not. I can talk to you. Okay. Good. Would you sign here, please? The legal system, specifically criminal proceedings, is usually not a topic that is taught in public schools.

Unfortunately, we don't have classes dedicated to the role of police officers, what they're allowed and not allowed to do. We should, but we don't. More often than not, public school students remember having a course or a class or something taught to them by police officers. I'm talking about programs like Dare, Powell, Paths, and Reality Tour. These are these types of things where they tell you,

stay in school, kids, don't do drugs, pops are good and stuff. But who's supposed to teach us our rights? And the fact that those rights often include not playing into exactly what those officers want us to do, which is to talk to them. Does the burden fall on parents to make sure their children know how to interact with law enforcement? Most adults don't even know their constitutional rights or how to

exercise them. Sure, one of the roles of police officers is to respond to calls and protect and serve the public. The oath that future law enforcement officers recite upon their entrance into the profession has one section that states, I will faithfully serve and protect my community while recognizing that policing is strong medicine and must be delivered at the right dosage. I will apply my craft accordingly, avoiding the dual temptation to over police or depolice neighborhoods and communities that need my help the most. Another section says, I will remember that my calling as a police officer is an honorable one, but should never set me apart from society or the community I serve.

I have been granted authority and I am enjoined by duty, yet I am a member of the public and share the same obligation to comply with the laws I am sworn to uphold. I wonder if that applies to the cops that run red lights or turn on their flashers so they could speed past a traffic jam? But look, there's a huge emphasis placed on honor, integrity, and honesty in the law enforcement profession. And we don't often think about the roles they play when investigating crimes. Honesty becomes far less important.

In fact, dishonesty is frequently and legally used to coerce suspects. We've got state police and highway patrol, uniformed local patrol officers, air marshals, sheriffs, and detectives among several other types of badge law enforcement officials. They all have very different responsibilities, and we interact with some of these types more than others. Most of us have dealt with local police officers in highway patrol, but many of us have never interacted with a detective.

William Hart certainly never had any experience with detectives until the fateful day he found himself in the hot seat. When he agreed to answer their questions and sign away his rights. Let's rewind back to the clip you heard earlier. Well, I gotta know if you want to talk to me about it or not. All I can do is to use a rope. Okay, good. Will you sign here, please? What exactly was William signing? Well, he was literally signing over his rights, his Miranda rights, as we mentioned before, really listen closely to these.

We often hear the Miranda rights read to suspects in crime shows, but they're read so quickly that it goes in one ear and out the other. We don't stop to think about what they really mean and why they're there. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you while you are being questioned.

If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent you before any questioning if you wish. You can decide at any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements. Do you understand these rights I have explained to you? Having these rights in mind, do you wish to talk to us now? Those Kentucky State Police Officers made it all seem so innocent. They said to him, hey, we just want to know if you'll talk to us. We just want to talk, that's all.

The average person does not understand how deceitful police can and will be in situations like this one. Unless you're a lawyer, a cop, the relative of a cop, or have been accused of a crime before and have hired a lawyer to help you, you probably don't know how to deal with police if they call you in for questioning. As many defense attorneys will repeat

until their voices are hoarse, the fifth amendment was always meant to help innocent people. And it often does when it's employed correctly. It can help guilty people too, just in case you commit any of these crimes in the future. The IRS is, after all, always after us. And pleading the fifth can help you when dealing with them too. William Hurt was called in to talk to Kentucky State Police in June 2012 after a body was discovered on the Kentucky side of the Ohio River.

The body belonged to a 54-year-old man named Marcus Gullike. Officers knew this because he had a letter from the Social Security Administration inside a plastic bag in his pocket addressed to him. Gullike had been released from prison several days prior to his untimely passing. He had a long history with the system. He had been in and out of correctional facilities, almost his whole adult life, and struggled with a laundry list of mental illnesses, including paranoid schizophrenia. He was homeless at the time of his death. He had just left his home in a prison cell and had rejoined society, but was trying to get back on his feet. He hadn't found a place to live, he was staying with different people off and on, but he knew that he could always return to his foster sister Debbie Hurtzhouse, for

a hot meal and good company. The final night that he was seen alive, Marcus Gullike was at Debbie's home in Evansville having dinner. Debbie went to bed and didn't see when or if he ever left the house. When Golic's body was found, a state medical examiner determined through an autopsy that he had injuries consistent with esphyxia by strangulation. His autopsy also showed a fractured hyoid bone, which is the bone right under your tongue that starts the top of your neck. He also had a fractured rib. This all made sense. It was clear to police that golechic died of strangulation. This meant that his death was a homicide. Shortly after learning that golechic had last been seen at Debbie Herb's house, where 14 ageers were living. They called all the kids in for questioning. William

Hurt, who was 18 years old at the time, became the focus of the investigation. All right, we're going to go over again about that night, okay? You were walking. Is that correct? It was. And it was on Thursday? Yes. You think it was about the 16th? I think it was about the 16th. Yes. Okay. So it was the 16th on Thursday.

Originally you said it on a Saturday. I actually originally told me on Thursday. When I told you that Debbie had told me that it was on Saturday, you agreed. Were you just agreeing at that time? Well, when my dad asked me when one day it was, I was half a sleeve. I didn't really even have to think. Well, when my dad asked me what day it was, I was half asleep. I didn't really even have to think, okay, they both made it out so I just realized that a day is so you can leave me alone when you're asleep.

Make a mental note of this. Here's the very first clear example of a pattern of behavior William engages in. It's not uncommon for people of his age or for people in general to tell someone what they want to hear just so they can be left alone. William's father asked him if he remembered what day Marcus Gullike had been at his mother Debbie's house. William was asleep at the time and his father had woken him up with the question. His dad fed him a date and asked him if that was the correct one. William agreed

so that his father would leave him alone and he could go back to sleep. He admits this fact. Regardless of the day, that's the night Marcus Gullic. He was there. Yeah, right? Okay. Tell me about your day that day. My day was like I got up. I got up, I was getting choured, I played games with I don't think I was in a little bit around 315, I left, I could take the long deal of us to work. And after that we had a very, it was a very long, dry on day and when I had gotten home, you said in my kitchen table. Which time do you think you got home? It was about, on my day of 11, 30, 11, 30.

That was very impient. Okay, it's a pretty long bus ride. We got away from the other buses, and then we leave at 10, 45. Okay. Two. Okay, take everybody else. Okay, now's the real important part. Alan, I want you to be honest and not skip any details.

Tell me everything. Okay, don't leave anything out. Okay, go ahead. What do you got? When you got home. I got home. I walked in and walked to sitting on my kitchen table. He was being a bucket of my car and selling.

I had to have my mom at that time, to her. That I was in house home. And then after that I sat down and kicked the table with Austin and my mom and we used to talk and then after a long walk she had to go out bed. Who was in the kitchen? It was me. Mark Harley-Wade, the bus she could use in there for about 10 minutes. Back up again. See, stuff that out. I really want everything. This is very important, okay, with every little detail. You come in the house, you said your mom and mom are in a kitchen.

Yes. At that time, when you entered the door, it was in a kitchen. It was Stephen, my little brother, my mom, and mom. Okay. That guy come in, sat down, Harley, he walked in, he grabbed something, where did he come from? The living room. William lived in a house with his mother Debbie, his sisters Andrea and Diedra, and a boy named Harley Wade, a foster child who had moved into the house only recently.

He had walked in, and then he grabbed something, he started moving stuff around, we're cleaning up a little bit, and he he got a Sunday D and walked right out. His ID is Sunday D. Sunday D, so during the walk, yeah. And then he walked out. Yeah, how long was he in the kitchen? About five minutes. Okay, then what happened?

After that, me and, me and Gets talking and Steven was taking playing cards with all of them really fast. And then after a while I figured I'd do that being one quite a game of chess. We're lasted about half an hour. Whenever William refers to Mark, he's talking about his uncle Marcus Gullikey. I got after that loss as he was on the bed and I was like wet in the middle of our game. And then Mark, because his eyes are bad, he couldn't see the board very well, so he was rough, lighting, and he just started running, and then I shut his hand, and I started

talking to him for a little bit. And after about 20 minutes talking, he just said he was going to leave me, to have a container of instant coffee, filling up the thing with more, and then just... I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that.

I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. I was going to tell you about that. mom was going to touch you, Mark asked a coffee and she was down in the county and grabbed him and said, coffee and data had to go up this much. They left in it and then she said,

she said he could have it. And then after that, we talked for a little bit. I've been full of the container, started around, cranked some, said he was leaving. I shook his hand again and told him to stay around. And then, he got out of shoes and walked up the back door. We'll get out the back door, yes.

We all have preconceived ideas about the seat. We think we know the science to look for when someone's lying. Saul Casson, a distinguished professor of psychology at John J. College of Criminal Justice in New York City, and also at Williams College in Massachusetts, disagrees with these notions. He's been studying confessions and interrogation techniques since the 1980s. He was one of the first to look into the science

behind false confessions, which remained somewhat of an enigma in criminal psychology to this day. Dr. Casson has been cited in numerous publications all over the world, including the United States Supreme Court, and was interviewed for the Ken Burns documentary on the Central Park 5. The often testifies in court as an expert witness on the topic of false confessions, and has worked closely with the innocence project in the past. The list goes on and on when describing the impact this man had on the research of this

topic. The process of interrogation is best understood by going back over history and looking at the fact that there are a number of methods of interrogation by far and away the most influential is called the Read Technique. Dr. Casson has been a long-standing critic of the Read Technique. The Read Technique is a method of interrogation developed in the 1950s by a psychologist and former police officer named John E. Read. It is in some ways the Bible of interrogation. The the smaller version of it, most recent, is published in 2013. It is the fifth edition. Very influential. It was cited by the US Supreme Court in Miranda, and basically it lays out a model, a set of conditions for interrogation. The Reed technique involves three phases and nine steps.

Every bit of interrogation audio you've heard on this show was planned and most likely followed these processes. Any interaction you have with the detective has a purpose. Trust me, they know what they're doing. There's so much here that's important. It's important to know, for example, that interrogators are trained to believe they can become human-ly detectors. We all think we can tell when somebody is lying.

If I were to ask you, I'm not gonna do it because I don't have the time, by a show of hands, how do you know when someone is lying? The most common thing that everybody in the audience will say is I can tell when people won't give me eye contact. When people won't look me in the eye. It turns out research shows that the correlation between eye contact and deception is near zero.

In fact, most of the cues that we rely on, whether it's posture, fidgeting, eye contact, changes in facial expression, most of those cues are not diagnostic of deception. But detectives are trained to believe that they can use those cues to make good, accurate judgments at very high levels of accuracy. They cannot. And why that is so important is that that pre-interrogation interview, during which that judgment is made,

becomes a pivotal choice point in the life of a case. Because on the basis of that judgment made, that suspect is either sent on to interrogation or sent home. And I cannot tell you how many interrogators detectives I've heard in giving talks, I've heard say, I can tell when somebody is lying to me. And when asked, aren't you concerned about the likelihood of getting a confession given the very powerful techniques you're trained to use, aren't you concerned about taking a false confession from innocent people? I have lost count of the number of times the answer I received is, well, no, because we don't interrogate innocent people.

So you're kind of all over the place. You're not telling it step by step. You've got to pull you down this stuff. I don't like doing that, okay? Right. And then after that, after my one to bed, you know, instead of talking to the other guy, I just said, then you fell up in some copy container, said he was leaving, so I should just hand him. He walked out there, but she's on the walk up to that door. Okay, and that's the last I've seen him. Where was Andrea?

Andrea, she was upstairs with me. Where was Deedra? In general, we don't tend to remember days that were not significant to us. Unless something major happened, we don't remember those details. For William Hart, this was just another night. Certainly, some people are more vulnerable to giving false confessions than others, and I say that for a couple of different reasons. First, it's important to recognize, I think, that very often false confessions occur voluntarily. That is, somebody who has not committed the crime steps forward without police pressure, without police influence,

and confesses to something they didn't do. There's a long history of cases just like that. A years ago called these voluntary false confessions. But then when it comes down to looking at vulnerability in the police interrogation setting, it is absolutely clear from the wrongful conviction data, from laboratory experiments, from self-report studies that juveniles are particularly vulnerable, they are disproportionately represented in the population of false confesters. That people with intellectual impairments, the mentally retarded, for example, are disproportionately represented in the population of false

confessors. And people with various types of mental illness appear, again, in those numbers with large frequency. It is clear that whether because these populations are naive, whether they are suggestible, whether they are overly compliant, whatever that issue may be, it is clear that in the police interrogation setting where influence is the issue, they are more subject to influence and manipulation

than the average person. William was 18. 18 years old is barely an adult. He was living at home with his mom and sisters working at a nice cream shop. He had no prior experience dealing with law enforcement. And certainly never imagined himself sitting in an interrogation room.

And yet, there he was. First of all, he thought he wasn't allowed to leave. He thought that he had to sit there and talk with those officers but he had already recounted the night for them. They wanted more. His statements just weren't good enough. You went to your bedroom at one o'clock? Yeah. Well, but he was getting to leave at 12 o'clock there, and it was hard to hop in again. Five, 15 minutes. And then he said he was leaving. About 12, 45, 12, 15, he walked out the back door, and then went down the ladder. I stayed in the basement.

And he went to bed. What's the next noise you hear? Nothing. Nothing at all? Nothing. Good. Do you have any kind of disabilities? I do have a club, but did you have mental disabilities? Not mental now.

You make Easter grades? I didn't graduate, does it do you? That's good. Tell you what, you get inconsistacies with some of the stories you tell. You understand that? Yeah, I do. You can take it. You want to be straight within this time? Yes. Go ahead.

William then went to tell them pretty much exactly the same story he had already told. There is the process of interrogation. They lay out a nine-step process. It is all designed, I will say, in a nutshell, without going into details. The process is designed to increase the anxiety associated with denial and to lower the anxiety associated with confession. Interrogation is designed specifically, psychologically, to make it easier to confess than to issue denials.

We'll then keep trying over and over again to tell these officers what happened that night. He got home from work, had dinner and played a game of chess with his uncle, Mark Gullike, until Mark left a little before 1 a.m. and William went to bed. Harley, you said earlier, Harley, Harley's door shut. After he went to bed, you're leaving out some stuff, right?

Not being patient with you. It's time to tell it all. It's time to be honest. You understand we know more than what you think? I'll let her know. I was telling you guys already know what I think. Because you guys are detectives. What do you think we know?

Well, I think you know what happened to Mark. And I think you know, you don't know it necessarily. What happened? Not like all what happened. I know he has something I kind of did he was there. And some of the stuff that he has done puts him up that sweet, that's about all I know. Still, you have not answered my question.

You said in an earlier statement, you heard Harley's door shut after you went to bed. Is that true or not true? Oh, it's the worst I've found out. After you went to your room. I was talking to her. That's true. You told me that on our earlier recorded interview and we hit that fact. Then when I asked you that question just not even five minutes ago, he said yes, that's what happened. One earth remembers that kind of stuff. On a boring day, I can't even remember what I ate. I'm not sure when I did two days ago.

Let alone what time I heard the door in the house shut a month ago. because according to what you're saying, that we've changed the story a lot. I will call the information, but I don't know what the information is. I mean, I'll tell you everything that I know, it may be like a different way of telling it. I don't know if it's different, like, sequence, but I'll tell you all that I know. There are a number of processes of interrogation that are perfectly lawful,

but that put innocent people at risk. I will single out a single, and that is a single technique which is lying about evidence. When Marty Tankliffe, just turned 17 years old in Long Island, called police because he found his mother dead in a brutal stabbing and his father, Gurglingurgling blood and not conscious. He became the suspect. And as the suspect, he was interrogated, pulled away from his family, pulled alone, and interrogated.

He was new 17 years old and obviously in a state of shock of some sort. And he was repeatedly lied to about his evidence. He was repeatedly told that his hair was found in his mother's grasp, that his father regained consciousness and identified him as a silent, Marty spent 17, 18 years in prison before all of this disappeared. But it was those lies about evidence is what put him over the top. Finally, very important and not quite realized factor. Innocent people bring with them a mental state. The mental state they

bring to the interrogation room is their own innocence. They waive their rights. When you ask an innocent person who had confessed afterward, why didn't you get a lawyer? They look at you with an odd look and they say, I didn't need a lawyer, I didn't you get a lawyer? They look at you with an odd look and they say, I didn't need a lawyer, I didn't do anything wrong. Innocent people believe in their innocence, they believe their innocence will prevail. That phenomenology makes them vulnerable in the interrogation room in ways that are hard

to anticipate. William knew that he was innocent. He figured that these detectives were professionals and they would soon see his point of view and understand that he had nothing to do with Marcus Gaulecki's death. The assumption that these detectives were honest and had noble intentions was an IEV one. The day that Marcus Gaulecki's body was discovered on the banks of the Ohio River, investigators immediately paid a visit to Gaulecki's brother to notify him of the Ohio River, investigators immediately paid a visit to Gullike's brother to notify

him of the discovery. His brother asked the officers, quote, �Is it verified he was killed other than jumping off a bridge? Because he had been on that bridge three times before threatening to kill himself.� Gullike had been on suicide watch in prison, too. While Gullike's brother was being given the bad news about the discovery of the body, Debbie Hurt, William's mother, called the detectives and suggested that they interview Harley Wade. In case you forgot already, Harley was the foster boy who moved into Debbie's home just before Marcus Gullike's death. Debbie suggested to police that Harley could have had something to do with Gullike's death if it was indeed a homicide because Harley had a tendency towards

violence. Debi recounted an incident that occurred right after Harley moved in. She claimed that Harley had choked her until she almost passed out. I've got more powers than you know it, just like the side hand. I'm not scared of them. Are you afraid what might happen to him? I care about him because he's my brother. You care for him? I mean, are you scared of going in? Me? I'm scared.

I'm scared of shillers. Because I'm getting into your question or something that I even have told remembering myself. That's one of the stories I'm telling you guys different stories I've been talking about you before to you He's been I mean he's been locked up and DOC and stuff like that because he's a priority through foster kid He's the high he's the high Yeah, we're on the side

And he's always talked to me about being there and being in another blog of facilities He's just talking about harming market anyway. He's even talking about work. He's telling about to me about being there and being in another block of facility, but he's just talking about harming market anyway. Is your talk about work? Is it about harming anybody? No. Oh, no, Lee. Just there, no further. He brags about finding everything else.

Well, from what I know, he's not going to harm anybody around my house. Okay. He talks about fighting. He brags about it. Great. Yes, he does. Okay. Did you ever brags about trope and anybody? He's not mentioning about a kick and anybody. He's almost typically just fighting itself. This parked up the ears of detectives. Unfortunately for them, 16-year-old Harley Wade was a ward

of the state and could not be interrogated without an attorney present. This is presumably the main reason detectives set their sights on William, Deidre, and Andrea Hurt. there was office I said it could possibly mean I didn't say I knew for a fact well go when they did that and ask you anything else you know he said all I know was he found the heart of all you said so you're exact statement I went on to this because I remember seeing that I remember seeing that notification all my time every single statement William made was met with hostility. All he was claiming here is that he remembered seeing a news notification pop up on his phone, probably something along the lines of body recovered from river. It may not have even been specifically referencing the Ohio River, but if you're familiar with

the area, or look at a map, it's a safe assumption. William remembered that as he read the news notification, he thought, wow, I'll bet that's my uncle Marcus. These officers were claiming that they had never released information about where Marcus Gulliky's body was found, and tried to spin William's statement around to make it seem like he couldn't have known Golike's body was discovered from the Ohio River unless he was the one who dumped the body there himself. I was involved in any way. I was involved in it. Where are you, Doshyler? How was I involved in it? You said you were involved. Okay, I talked to him.

Okay, I'll start from the beginning. I'll give you exactly everything that I know. Is it going to be the same story we've already heard? Yes. Possibly. I'll let him. Okay, look. I want to know what happened to Marcus. I think of one time you care about it.

All right, and you still care about him, all right? I need to find out what happened there. We need to know. We need to know how much you're evolving this. We need to know if you're the one hearting. I'm not the one that hearted him. You know who it is? No, I don't. I think you're leaving something out. William told the same story consistently for over an hour despite the pushback from the interrogating officers. They insisted he was lying. better innocent, okay? We make for a while, but we get on the right track and then we'll go after the guilty people. Understand that? The last thing I want to do is throw somebody in jail, that's innocent. All right? Understand me? Yes, I don't want to do that, but that would go against all my beliefs. But I need to know what happened.

Whoa, let's rewind. Let's circle back to what Dr. Saul Casson mentioned earlier. And I cannot tell you how many interrogators detectives I've heard in giving talks. I've heard say, I can tell when somebody is lying to me. And when asked, aren't you concerned about the likelihood of getting a confession given the very powerful techniques you're trained to use? Aren't you concerned about taking a false confession

for innocent people? I have lost count of the number of times the answer I received is, well, no, because we don't interrogate innocent people. There it is. And the Kentucky State Police vocalized the quote, almost verbatim during Williams interview. Here's another example of how these officers fit right into the persona. Dr. Casson described. You don't know. I do not know. He's not done anything else wrong.

He's not not glad at night. Not someone I know. At all. What do you expect? Why answer? Why answer? Why do you live when you talk? Why was her dry?

It's not. No, you had a biker live. You let statement just now. You qualified your answers. It's not working for me. OK. He does some stuff wrong in there. I know. No, you have a larger lift, you have that statement just now. You can all find your answers. It's not working for me, okay? He does some stuff wrong in there, I know. It's important to know, for example, that interrogators are trained to believe they can

become human-lybed detectors. We all think we can tell when somebody is lying. It turns out research shows that the correlation between eye contact and deception is near zero. In fact, most of the cues that we rely on, whether it's posture, fidgeting, eye contact and deception is near zero. In fact, most of the cues that we rely on, whether it's posture, fidgeting, eye contact, changes in facial expression, most of those cues are not diagnostic of deception, but detectives are trained to believe

that they can use those cues to make good, accurate judgments at very high levels of accuracy. You have trouble telling the truth. I don't put on the spot. Yes. You put on the spot right now. Exactly.

I have a real tough time. I want to believe you, but I just wish something that there's something missing. There's something missing I can tell. You can both tell. Well, we wouldn't have you down here for a reason. I don't know. I would have you, I would have you, I would have you used so long in the car. You've seen how long it took me to interview your body else in the car.

Yeah, it took me a long time. Yeah. These are almost like 45 minutes to interview or something like that in the car. 35 minutes, 35 minutes, 35 minutes. Yeah. And you know, well, you know, here's a deal. We need to help you. This is something everyone needs to remember. If you are being questioned by police about a crime, it's not because they intend to help

you in any way. These officers must have been so confident that they had a guilty person in the hot seat, that they escalated their interrogation techniques. They began to lie to William, telling him that they already had so much evidence on him that he'd be going away for a long time if he didn't confess. See, that's one of the things that police tell suspects. They like to make vulnerable, scared people think they'll be allowed to go home if they just tell the truth about what happened.

They never tell you this outright, but they definitely suggest it. The problem here is that there's only one correct truth in the interrogation room admitting guilt. I had enough for the interview earlier to be awards on you pitching jail. Okay? Yeah. He was the last person saying, yes. I've got, you know, so what's happened today? You know, but I'm the last person that's seen and was on I could make me a suspect. Nothing you know, or to bring you in is what I'm saying. I don't know.

I'm not necessarily a settler. I'm a charge. I already know you guys think I'm a suspect. That's my hand swollen. And I'm four or five of the truth or whatever. Which is you figure this out. Did you guys keep asking about my hand? At the tele sign.

When? Did you guys keep asking me the day or the last week? What did I'm suspect? No, but your hand. You came in. Okay, I'm a dead hour. You guys don't want my hand. I know. Is that what you thought you'm suspect? No, but your hand. You came in, okay, I'm gonna get out of work. You guys don't have my hand. I know, is that when you thought you were suspect?

I thought, I was suspect, I need to be patient with my hand. Okay, suspect what? That I did something to work, or I helped in any way to possibly kill my, or kill my own, but harder than any way at that point. All right, thought, I even broke down crap for work. What William was talking about is a previous visit from law enforcement to his place of employment. William was working a shift at the ice cream shop when officers showed up asking him questions.

They noticed that his hand had some scrapes on it and was a little swollen. William quickly explained that he had punched a tree, which is what caused the swelling. And the scratches came from the exposed rods that came in contact with his hand regularly when he was scooping ice cream for customers. His story seemed true. The existence of these rods was confirmed and they looked like they could cause similar damages seen on William's hand. Regardless, officers took photos of his hands for evidence. I'm a funeral. Oh my god, you're running? No. I'm a funeral. No, one down.

See if you can cut that up on your own. Okay. Oh no, I'm good. Yeah. If you're on stage, you're found to hire everyone. If you're on stage, you're killed. Oh, bro. It's time for honesty.

We're just going to hold on. How are the investigations? I know you guys are hurt. We're doing investigations in his mouth so that they can then turn around and say, gotcha? Only a guilty person would say something like that. You're the one who brought up the Ohio River. You're the one who suggested that Marcus Galicky was killed. I don't.

I'm trying to help too, but I'll try to help her by thinking, you know, you guys are just throwing me in throwin' me for your safety. I know it is, pardon. I know it is. If I wasn't here right now, I'd probably be in jail, I realized that because you said you could have bought me one to drag me in. You know all the other stuff, but I don't know what else happened after he left. the right way in. It's clear that these officers were taking full advantage of Williams and I have a T when it comes to the criminal justice system. He didn't understand the

roles of various types of law enforcement officials. He didn't understand words like warrant, evidence, or charges. He certainly didn't understand his own rights and these officers used that to their advantage. the on camera at the store, the right door, the point right towards the right door. I'm not going to have you on camera driving that road or riding into vehicles down the road. Right? I did not ride into vehicles. William really hadn't been in a vehicle driving down the road that night. This was a lie. They had no video footage of this alleged escape I've walked down a t-reguest station and got a pulp act of RC color. Thank you, Sposlin, with a bit.

I've said you and that night are devised before or after. So when I got your caravan on there, it would be the night the marcus was there. You went to bed after marcus was there and then you'd left. You know, I got some RC color, mate. Is that what you're saying? It is. Hopefully, Hans, I have tough, terrible Is that what you're saying? Yes.

What we are, I have a terrible terrible memory when it comes to hiding in the basement. You have a terrible line, Paul, so you get an unknown. Honestly. I'll be very terrible at this, Paul, because you know what? You're a lot about this right now.

Because you know, I just called you out on that. And you want to sit there saying that you left and went to RC at the road. But that's not what you're telling me, okay? You sit there saying Mark's four-cut thing back to the road, I went to bed, then I was door shut down, I already moved in the day I used to play in chess, then you start, you know, I didn't go nowhere that night, I was straight to bed, I blocked out. But I don't really black out, but I'm a sound sleeper, what you said, but now you're saying, I went down the road and got me a tool back RC. And it came right from that. I honestly

do not know, but if I did something, I do not know about it. Well, maybe you did something to them, you don't know about it. You were thinking about that? Yes. So you could have hard-markers and not know anything about it. Oh my gosh. You know what you're saying? You could you have hard-marked it, accident, blinded around with them, something to hurt you? Could you have done that? You said I'd play around with them. I played the game with Chess, we talked to him and left. Could you have done that? Could you don't know anything you're doing right now, apparently? Ever, leveled lock and eye. Could you have hard-marked it, on accident?

Could you have hard-mark have heard Marcus on accident? Could you have heard Marcus on accident? Answer the question. Could you have heard Marcus on accident after I went to bed? Oh, after you went to bed and we would have got our seats whenever. Okay, well, I got to bed. I have time to sleep walking, but by the time I went to bed he was down the street. I don't walk that fast. I have club flip. Could you have heard Marcus on accident? Because I could have. But I don't know for a fact I didn't. If I go and take more and I've, you know,

lived all the DNA off of him, all over his body clothes, everything else, where could I find your DNA at. On the walk. On his hand, back of the shirt, I had one of the back of the shirt, and shook his hand. And I'm gonna find it anywhere else. No. I mean, positive about that. Yes, I'm positive.

I'm not gonna find your fingerprints anywhere. No. You realize that stuff stays on there for a long time, right? I realize it. Yes. Okay. Pressing on the wrong side of fingerprint. I don't know why that's the thing on there for a long time. I realize it is. Yes. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to thank you for that. I don't know why that's it.

I don't want to tell you. Honestly, what I believe, so I did it, something happened, and it was an accident. Okay. I'm not going to say it and say you did it. I'm going to say an accident happened. And then her back freaked out and there was nobody to do. And about three years, we try to cover up for each other.

This is a deal. If the first one of cracks is going to be the lucky duck, the second one of cracks from my BRI, the third one, definitely ain't going to be alright. You understand that. And if you want to talk about going to jail, everything else, wait till you're number 30. Then you're gonna see a lot of jail, though. Number one, might. Might be lucky.

Right now, you're not number one. Something's happened to... I know something's happened today. You know something about it. And you need to tell us because I'll tell you right now. When it's right now you're 18 years old. You got your whole life ahead of you. If something is screwed up, someone's screwed up, you know about it. You've done something. Or my head does a little bit you really don't know. But you've done something, or my hand does, I know it's really not, no. I can't believe that. But I know it's, by the way. If you've done something, I know about it.

Man, I'm telling you, you are allowed to lie about evidence. Police are allowed to turn to a suspect who has for hours denied any involvement and to say to that suspect you've denied your involvement and yet we have your fingerprints on the murder weapon or we have the victim was in a struggle we have hair on her grasp we've done the test the hair is yours or you've taken a polygraph test the lie detector test and you've failed it or you've taken a polygraph test, a lie detector test, and you've failed it. Or you've been identified by a witness, or we have your fingerprints, or your blood or your DNA or what have you. In these cases, we see a number of these

cases where the suspect starts to get confused and disoriented and starts to question his or her own innocence. And often the conversation then turns to questions about memory and consciousness. And there are cases on record where suspects who we now know are innocent, not only confessed and signed a confession, but they concluded and inferred that they must actually have committed this crime.

The Kentucky State Police Investigators tasked with interviewing William Hurt had finally begun to wear him down. This was after an hour of interrogation. There would be many, many more hours. These two particular officers grilled William for almost four hours in total. After the first two hours in which William continued to repeat his story over and over again, exclaiming that he had nothing to do with the death of his uncle, the officers finally gave him a break. This break was intentional. Everything they do in the interrogation room is intentional.

They make you sit there now during this break for 40 minutes, stewing in your own fear, anxiety, and confusion. He said in here, we've got about five minutes to talk to you. You need to do some real heavy think and real quick, just to be so assertion. When they finally returned, William dug himself deeper into the grave that Kentucky State Police had already plotted out for him before his arrival in the interrogation room. Nobody in the house, not my dad, not my mom, not any of my sisters, to your brother, with harm anybody or that man. Anyway, when you're up your chest, you're the only person that would know, no, don't go there.

You won't sit there, you know, what you will do, you will give in other sins, and you don't feel a little bit stressed when you're not all you heard. Now, right back to you, what I'll do, I'll relief that's all you heard in it. Now we'll drive back to you when I'll do the run-out and you'll feel the pain in you because I keep turning the pain on, I keep turning on, I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep

turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep turning on. I keep You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you hear that other stuff. You know what we want to hear. You know what we want to hear. Let me translate that for you.

You know that we want you to corroborate what we think is true using the evidence we have fed you throughout this interrogation. We need you to make sure your facts are straight when you confess so it holds up in court and we can put you away. Make sure you confess and do it correctly. Listen closely to this next clip.

There are a few phrases William repeats that are very important. What is how to do? That I do not know. If you want to do this part? It doesn't hold a heart in hand. It's the most important. But from what I'm getting is the good chance that it was. It's by what way is telling me. No, it's what you're telling me. That's the way you're carrying out your awareness, your feeling, the body language,

you're telling me. William says things like, from what I'm getting, it's a good chance that it was from what you're telling me. This is a clear indication that he is using information. These officers are feeding him and it's trying to tell them what they want to hear without admitting to a crime that he didn't commit. He is being backed into a corner. William was unable to continue telling the truth because these officers were not accepting

anything he said after hours upon hours of interrogation. And he adamantly resisted falsely confessing until he didn't. These Kentucky State Police officers finally broke him. And it wasn't just William that they coerced into confessing into this homicide. William's sister, Deidre, confessed as well. During his confession, William claimed that he, his sisters, Andrea, and Deidre and his foster brother, Harley, got into a vehicle after ending the chess game William played with his uncle, Marcus Gullike.

They drove along the road and saw Gullike walking. William explained that he stopped it, talked to him. He then recounted that Harley got out and started laughing and joking around with Gullike. Throughout the course of this part of the interview, William doesn't give full sentences describing what happened. It's more like the investigators ask him, so when did you guys do XYZ? And William gives short answers to appease them. At some point, William agreed that Harley got out of control for some reason and was sent into a fit of

rage. He allegedly started punching, kicking, and choking golechie. Choking Galerie. And the first cut that you had, you came to swallow up. You hit Mark. You hit Mark over, no? What do you mean you remember? You hit your children, Mark. That's not what got to do. I'm not going to go through. I'm going to ask you again. The last few few to mark, you three will suggest that you're about to launch.

If you make it as accident, our food will stay. If you're messing around or he too fine. He'd think it went down. I need no air group, single, deep health. Just don't remember. Williams, you don't remember. You're trying not to remember your five-shoted out. You can't. On some of those were covered in your hands. Okay. This is the hand that you can get involved with. Tell me how much you get worth. Tell me more than once. Then I'm five.

His nature has been a different environment. So I was just by the beginning of that face. His face on the torso. From keeping. How are you keeping? Yes. William eventually admitted after a bit more prodding that he too had punched and kicked his uncle a few times alongside Harley Wade. The kid's then allegedly wrapped Golicie's body in bedsheets, put him in the van and subsequently dumped him in the Ohio River.

The next set of questions is even more telling. Officers asked William where he and his siblings had beaten Golicie. Think back to an earlier clip we played, where the investigators told William that they had enough evidence to put him away for a long time. They lied to him and told him they had video footage of him. They referred specifically to a convenience store called Kangaroo. Well you said you had my face on video, William said. Interesting. These types of remarks are the hallmark of a co-host confession. Fraser's like, quote, I'm drawing clues together.

And quote, like you were saying. Fraser's like that showed that William was quite literally pulling information they had already been feeding him and inserting them into the answers of their questions. He was trying his best to guess the answers the officers were looking for. William concluded his confession by telling officers that he, his sisters, and Harley drove to the kangaroo convenience store with gollikes debit card after dumping his body and bought some snacks. When he finished answering questions, William asked the investigator,

was I getting close to most of the facts of what actually happened? Was I close to it? The investigator replied, I don't know, was you? And left the room. There are many problems with William and Deidre's confessions. Much of the story recounted can easily be fact-checked, and the evidence doesn't align with the confessions at all. Most importantly, there was no physical evidence on Marcus Skolike's body suggesting that he had been beaten. He had only one broken rib and a fractured hyoid bone in his neck.

Another obvious inconsistency relates to the debit card William claimed they used to buy snacks at the kangaroo convenience store. Golic E's debit card had only 8 cents in his account at the time William claimed they used it. It could not have been used at the kangaroo. There was no evidence that it had been used at the kangaroo. There was no evidence that it had been used at the kangaroo. The man was homeless and jobless. He had just been released from prison, he had no money.

One final critical inconsistency is the location where the body was found. If the body had been dumped near the plaza where William claimed he and his siblings tossed gollicky into the Ohio River, the body would have had to travel nearly six miles upstream in order to land where it was eventually found. So why on earth would William and his sisters confess to a crime they didn't commit. Variations of this same situation happen more often than most of us would like to think they do.

I have been investigating this topic for many years now and I find that people actually intuitively have a better grasp on why somebody might kill themselves and commit suicide than understand why somebody might confess to a crime they did not commit. You would think in terms of how common it is that it almost never happens. When I first got involved in the study

of false confessions, it was my sense that I was studying a fascinating aspect of social influence, but not an aspect of social influence that was common. The more I see and the more data that have come out, the more we come to realize that people often confessed to crimes they did not commit. We know for example that if you look at the Innocence Project, DNA Exoneration cases, if you just take that sample alone, that number now is up over 250. In roughly 25% of those cases, false confessions are a contributing factor. It is common for people, and it would be wrong for people to assume that only the weak and vulnerable confessed to crimes they didn't commit.

It happens to people who are ordinary, smart, having all mental health and adult. The reason it happens is now it gets down to a story about police interrogation tactics. Just as we mentioned before, officers trained an interrogation aimed to make it extremely uncomfortable to not confess. They back their suspects into a corner and shut down any statement that isn't what they want to hear. They know what they're looking for and will often consciously or subconsciously guide a suspect right into that desired

story or statement. They use threats, lies about evidence and other witnesses and say things like, you're gonna feel so much better when you just tell us what we need to hear. You know you did this. There is this common belief that if somebody were to give a false confession somehow, it would be discernible. It would look different. It would sound different than a true confession.

Not so. My colleagues and I several years ago went into a prison outside of Boston to do the following study. We titled the study, I'd know a false confession if I saw one. We had prisoners confess to the crimes they committed for which they were being incarcerated, and we taped their confessions. And then we had them on the spot,

make up a confession to something we knew they didn't do. We showed those tapes to people, we showed them to police detectives, experience police detectives, we showed them to lay people. People couldn't really tell the difference between the true confessions and the false. And so it's not a wonder that judges and jurors uncritically accept confessions whenever they hear them.

It's virtually impossible to discern a false confession just by looking at it or just by listening to it. And that's why there are so many cases on record where there is on the one hand for a judge and jury at it or just by listening to it. And that's why there are so many cases on record where there is on the one hand for a judge and jury to see a confession. There is on the other hand DNA that excludes the defendant who had confessed. Invariably, confession trumps DNA. It's that powerful. William, Deidre, and Andrea Hurt, along with Harley Wade, were in deep trouble after William and Deidre confessed. Deidre's confession took the same form as Williams.

The process looked almost identical. She cried and denied any involvement for hours upon hours. The officers accused her of lying, they threatened her, saying that if she didn't confess, they were positive she would get at least 20 to 50 years behind bars. She said similar things as her brother William, like, I don't know what I'm supposed to tell you. She tried to recant her story at the end of her interview and the officers stated, quote, now you're starting to recant your story. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna stop. We've got enough.

We're just gonna stop the interview, okay? Because now you're trying to recant your story, trying to add things to it. William and Deidre, both adults at the time were arrested alongside 16 year old Andrea Hurt and 16 year old Harley Wade. Andrea was held for one week before being released from custody and the charges were dropped against her.

Criminal charges were not pursued against Harley Wade, the alleged aggressor in the confessions. Deidre and William were both charged with murder. Deidre stayed in prison for four months before the court granted a motion to suppress her confession. Charges against her were dropped. But for William, unfortunately, he got the shortest end of the stick. He was held in prison for eight months pending his murder trial. When the case went to trial, the jury found him not guilty on every single count. The

Hurt family is now filing a civil suit against the parties involved in the investigation of this case. It is set to go to trial in early 2021. Can you imagine being the one who was put through this? Accused of murder, manipulated into a confession and dragged through the criminal justice system, because once you fall into that system and the machinery is buzzing and going, it's almost impossible to get out. William, and it doesn't sound like this,

but it's true, was lucky. There are countless others like him who are not. So remember that next time, you're face to face with a law enforcement officer. Shut your mouth, know your rights, and never talk to cops. That's it for this episode of Sword and Scale. Thank you for joining us. We hope you learned something this time. And until next time, stay safe. Hey Mike, this is Matt from Australia. Got to tell you, man, loving the fact that you're keeping the show going,

even after all that crack from the mob a while back there. Loving the content, bud. Keep it up, cheers. Hi Mike, this is Debbie Colleen from Northwest Ohio, and I just want to let you know I absolutely love your podcast. My daughter introduced me to it about two months ago and since then I have listened to all 165 episodes. I am going to have to become a plus member because I don't know what I'm going to do if I can't take you on my 10 mile walks every day and listen

to two to three episodes. Keep up the great work. I absolutely love it. Thanks so much. Bye-bye. Hi, Mike today in the whole team. My name's Caitlin Black and from Philly. I love you guys. I listen to you guys all day at work. Such a great distraction.

So entertaining. And just so thrilling every story. Love you guys. Please keep it up. Just keep producing stories and I'll be a listener for forever. I thank you all again. Hey, there's sort of a fail from a hard working Canadian. I paint homes all day and I listen to your show.

My name is Justin and I gotta say, the only thing that concerns me a little bit is the fact that you all keep not running out of materials for the show. That's a bit of a shame as much as I love the show. Keep up the good work. You guys are awesome. you