Sword and Scale - Episode 171

Episode Date: October 12, 2020

We all know by now that there are good cops, and there are very bad cops. On December 29th, 2009, Kevin Gregson and Eric Czapnik showed the world exactly which roles they filled. Both men wanted so desperately to become members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, but the ultimate end to each of their careers was distinctly different. One man is now celebrated by the entire country of Canada, while the other is despised.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Do you think you're a fair person? Hey, why so not anymore? What? I'm a monster now Because of it? Oh yeah. Or before. Because of this.

Hi there. Welcome back. This is season 7 episode 171 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Well, you're in for a treat if you are just a free listener on the free feed. The month of October is going to be a good one. For the entire month, we are going to release plus episodes for free every other week here just as they would come out on our plus service. If you like it, if you've been on the fence, if you don't know what plus is all about, this is going to give you a real good taste of it. And if you want to get more plus, there are over 77 episodes of it available to you instantly by joining.

It starts at just five bucks a month and you can find it at sword and scale.com slash plus. We hope you'll like the next couple of weeks and want to join. It really helps us continue to produce this show that you like. Obviously, if you're here. So sign up at Cost Less than a Starbucks cup of coffee. Five bucks a month gets you all that content and more. A high ban with fee, commercial free episodes, store discounts, so much additional content.

Check it out, Sword and Scale.com slash plus. Alright, what are we doing waiting around here? Let's get into it right away. Let's go! Ah, canadae. The land of bacon. That's actually just ham. It's a country where everything seems to be maple flavored, and hockey is worshiped like football is in the States. In a country where everyone's so overly polite, it's strange to think that it's produced the likes of Bruce Blackman, Vince Lee, Mark Twichel, Sydney Tier Hughes, and who can

forget Luca Magnautta. It's also strange to think about how uncomfortably close Canada and its depraved murderers are to the United States. In 1818 an arbitrary line was drawn between our country and theirs and as soon as you cross the border into our northern sisterland, things are done very differently. The currency, government, healthcare and cultural traditions are all very different from ours. Yet they're so close and proximity to us. The drive from Shamplan, New York to Montreal is literally less than an hour.

One thing in particular that is distinctive to Canada is the way their law enforcement agencies work. For example, in Canada, there is a federal criminal code, compared to here in the United States, where we have sometimes vastly different laws from state to state. Training to be a cop in the US means your training could look very different in one state compared to another. In Canada, the training is all the same, which is kind of smart, to be quite honest. There are three levels of policing in Canada as well, municipal, provincial, and federal, similar to our local, state, and federal police forces in America.

We often hear the phrase the police force here in the US. I just used it to describe our law enforcement groups. Canadians differ in that they refer to their law enforcement agencies as the police service. This is a very important distinction because much of the police training in Canada is centered around this singular value. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police, commonly referred to as the Mounties, are traditional and emblematic symbols of Canada. You've seen them, with their bright red uniforms and silly hats, riding horses for some reason. They enforce the law throughout the entire country on a community, provincial, territorial,

federal, and even international level. Interpol on horseback. The RCMP generally enforces federal law and tackles organized crime, trafficking, border control, and domestic security. This is an audio clip from a promotional video made way back in 1961. The core values of the Mounties haven't changed much since then, and even the uniforms looked exactly the same as they do today.

The Royal Canadian Moutin Police, the RCMP, the Maltese. 5,400 men who maintain the law superbly well in Canada. A police force that has gained the admiration and respect of the world. Though many of the stories of the brave and fearless Maltese are just stories, he's still a special kind of man, an exceptional kind of policeman, a symbol to all the world of justice and principle, courage and courtesy.

Training for the RCMP lasts six months, followed by another six months of supervised field coaching. Many recruits are simply following in the footsteps of a long line of family members who have served as Mounties. It's part of their heritage, it's a symbol of bravery and nobility. Kevin Gregson was adopted from a Cody First Nation reservation in Western Canada when he was just two days old. His adoptive parents were a Mormon couple living in Ottawa.

They had no information pertaining to Kevin's medical records or his biological family, but intended to treat Kevin as if he were their own flesh and blood. He was a relatively normal kid, a little slow to learn how to walk, but other than that, he was average. Upon finishing grade 12, Kevin went on to a Gawntwin college and switched his major a few times. He started at the school majoring in environmental studies that switched to law and security, then nursing, and finally landed on a major in native addictions counseling. Kevin himself had never had a problem with drugs or alcohol, and barely experimented with

them in high school, which is unexpected given the elevated percentage of adoptees that develop lifelong substance abuse disorders compared to non-adoptes. On top of that, Kevin had aboriginal roots, and it's commonly known that indigenous groups tend to have higher percentages of drug and alcohol abuse than the general population. Hey, before you get your panties in a bunch, I'm just stating a statistical fact. Nevertheless, Kevin pursued various jobs upon graduating with his two-year native addictions degree. Between 1989 and 1991, Kevin pursued various jobs upon graduating with his two-year native addictions degree. Between 1989 and 1991, Kevin completed missionary work for the Mormon Church, but was still trying

to decide what he wanted his long-term career path to be. I chose policing because it's a good job. I want to help people. It's stable. I wanted First Nation Police experience for my church. I'm a member of Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints two years. As far as my Aboriginal roots go, I'm an Eagle Feather Keeper. Kevin wanted desperately to bring his native heritage into the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Service. He officially became a Mounty on August 4, 1998, just before his

32nd birthday. After being sworn in, Kevin was posted to a few small Saskatchewan communities and seemed to enjoy it. He got to know people in the communities he was serving, and he did really well for about two years. At one point, Kevin even won an award, a commanding officer's commendation after talking a suicidal man at a native reserve off the proverbial ledge. The man was drunk and holding a rifle, threatening to kill himself. Kevin convinced him to lay down the rifle and prevented him from ending his life.

Kevin's next posting was in Cumberland House on the Manitoba Saskatchewan border. At this point, things started to go downhill for his once noble career. During his time posted at Cumberland House, Kevin had issues with another officer. The tension was so bad that they couldn't even ride in the same vehicle together. On January 27th, 2001, the first time in weeks that Kevin shared a vehicle with this other officer, the two were reporting to a home where a 19-year-old was violently drunk. The family had called police in fear for their safety. When Kevin and the other officer walked into the home, the man was sitting on the couch

smoking a cigarette, yelling belligerently at the officers. Just as the man yelled out, I'll kick your fucking ass. Kevin Gregson pounced on him, pulling him off the couch and onto the floor which resulted in a laceration on the suspect's face. Kevin's partner, the other officer who accompanied him to the scene, testified that he witnessed not only this overuse of force, but another instance once they got back to the main cell units. He claims that he saw Kevin push the man onto the floor of his cell and dig his knee into his back. As a result of this incident, Kevin was charged with using excessive force on a prisoner.

As a frontline officer, Kevin had direct contact with the public and with those in the government's custody. This is considered a privilege in Canada. Kevin soon found himself estranged from his colleagues and he felt shamed for the disciplinary scuff on his record. You have to remember the Royal Canadian mounted police take police brutality very seriously. They seem to impress upon their officers the importance of remembering that they are servicemen, not brutal law enforcers who use and abuse

civilians. But of course, there are bad apples and not only every single occupation, but every country as well. The condescension he began to experience coming from his colleagues and superior officers fostered the seeds of rage deep inside of Kevin. He thought he'd put it all behind him when he was sworn into his dream job and could finally dawn the sacred red uniform, but it soon became clear that he hadn't. Kevin was found innocent of the excessive force charges in court, and the disciplinary action was halted, but he was transferred to another location. He was walking a very thin line, and a superiors warned him that if he had any other disciplinary issues, he would be deemed unfit for the front lines, and would instead

have to work a desk job. That would mean no gun, no uniform, no prestige, no nothing. All of the main reasons Kevin wanted to join the Mounties in the first place would be off the table completely. And who wants to work a desk job in an office setting? Yuck. As expected, Kevin stumbled off the career tightrope, acquiring another disciplinary red mark on his record shortly after his transfer to another location, and was subsequently moved into a desk job, his weapon taken away from him.

This was a smart move on the part of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Kevin had developed what can only be described as a skewed perspective on his role as a frontline police officer. It seems that he took the lessons and principles he was taught in school and warped them into something dark, something twisted. And I'm trained to take life. That's my specialization and I can't believe the stupid thing. Now you continue to say your specialization and learn that as a police officer. I did. Because I've never learned that. I'm going to be saucer longer than you. Not like us. We're the Mounties. So I just have holes in my head and he said because

that he said technically I shouldn't be walking or talking right now. I should be dead. And he says just that I'm just tough and physically fit. Get a load of this guy. Oh, but we are the Mounties, he says. We aren't like you. Kevin truly thought that the Mounties primary training pertained to taking life. The role was to take life. That's a dangerous mindset for a police officer to have.

On top of that, Kevin was a huge fan of himself. He really thought that he was something special, a gift perhaps to the police service. I'm pretty freakishly strong. I am. You've been quite highly of yourself. I am. I have lots of experience in restraint. It's no big deal. In case you're wondering, the RCMP school in Regina does not, in fact, teach its recruits

how to be killing machines. There is a pretty detailed use of force model used by the school to teach officers how to respond in escalated situations and avoid deadly force at all costs. Kevin somehow learned the opposite. The trial against Kevin for excessive use of force was really a turning point for him. He became disillusioned, angry, resentful. He stated in court, I had to go to trial. I had to work there for two years.

I had no support. It cost me $16,000 and it was just a mess. And so when I came out of the North, I was messed up. I was angry. I was frustrated. The RCMP's solution was to stick me in the APO program,

or Air Protective Officer program, which is geared towards making a person aggressive. Everything Kevin says has an element of truth, but a very small element. The truth was, Kevin had actually requested that he be moved into the APO program, but both the Vancouver and Ottawa bases rejected him. Look, I'm an APO guy. It's a specialised, we have specially trained, of course, like a WAC, you know, AVO. And the emphasis is on Blade War.

Kevin was not an APO guy. By any stretch of the imagination, he was never accepted into any APO program, and his specialty was not blade work as he bragged. After a second rejection, Kevin impulsively sent an angry email to the commanding officer saying things like, me. I guess I'm fucked. I'll have to handle things in my own way." This email was sent in January of 2005. By January 13, Kevin was placed on administrative leave. His badge, gun, and office keys were taken away from him. And five long-barreled guns, along with a bow, were removed from his home. Kevin had a problem with authority. That was clear. It seemed that each and every time anyone pointed out

as behavioral issues, Kevin responded with even worse behavior. Five months after his weapons hearing in December 2005 when a judge stated, quote, there was no evidence of Gregson at any time actually losing control and endangering safety. Kevin went on to threaten a Mormon bishop with a knife. Kevin was formerly an elder in the Church of Latter-day Saints because he successfully

completed his missionary work. This meant he had earned a temple-recommend status. The status allows a member of the Mormon Church to enter the temple. It's valid for two years, but after cheating on his wife, Kevin's temple recommend was revoked. He was angry and thought he might try to remedy the situation, convince the bishop to give him back his rights by wielding a knife and flinging threats. Makes sense, doesn't it? In May of 2006, Kevin stepped up to his bishop's desk, placed a knife right in the middle of the desk and said to the bishop. kill a man. I would rather fight you with this knife than a pistol. I'm better with a knife than a pistol.

I can take someone out so much faster with this than any other way. What a douche! Why would summers eve here think that this approach would work for him? Did he picture the bishop responding? Yeah man, I totally see what you mean. We were really unfair to you. I'm reinstating your temple privileges. Just don't forget to leave the knife at home next time you visit the church. Yeah, that's not how things work, Kevin.

For this incident, Kevin faced charges. He received a conditional discharge and was placed on probation from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police after pleading guilty to his charges in 2007. During the legal proceedings in this case, Kevin was diagnosed with hydrocephalus, a build-up of fluid deep inside the brain. Kevin underwent surgery to drain the fluid and had a shunt installed in his brain to prevent

fluid from building up again in the future. Kevin's defense referred to this diagnosis often, citing it as the main reason for Kevin's erratic and dangerous behavior. The judge stated during sentencing that he quote, would have considerable reservations about doing that if it were not for the diagnosed medical condition. He was referring to the light sentence imposed by the courts upon the former Mounty. Light sentences are also a byproduct of the Canadian justice system, in case you didn't know. I should point out that hydrocephalus can affect learning and behavior.

There's little to no evidence that hydrocephalus directly causes violent outbursts. Usually it just causes lethargy, confusion, vision impairment, headaches, that sort of thing. It's likely the reference to this condition was just an excuse and not an actual cause. Despite this gracious judges ruling, Kevin was ordered in 2008 to resign or be fired from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. He of course appealed the decision. Things only got worse for Kevin as the years went on. On December 28, 2009, Kevin's third wife left him. Someone had accused Kevin of raping a little girl.

That's a serious accusation. Kevin denied everything and suddenly hijacked a car and drove it over to his parents' house. He was pacing, sweating, contemplating what his next moves would be. If he really was innocent of raping this girl, then why was this his reaction? Did someone really hate Kevin so much that they made up a story about him being a pedophile and a predator? I mean, it's possible, the guy is pretty hateable, but it's unlikely. While meandering back and forth on his parent's deck, his father recounts that Kevin was very pale

and kept talking about wanting to die. Just before 6 p.m. that evening, Kevin got on the computer and began typing. Your intention to see me was to take your own life. Yeah, I tried to give me suicide. It didn't work. Kevin Greggson had reached a point in his life where he saw no other option but to commit suicide. The problem with Kevin's attempts, though, is that many of his methods are so laughably inefficient

that it makes you wonder if he was really trying to kill himself, or if there was another motive at play. None of these cut in my throat. I got in there good and deep. I was working in. And the doctor said the arteries not, they move around. Well, I think that's a natural effect, so I'm to try to move out of the way. But I got in there good.

I was like zigzagging and it just still didn't work. Damn it. Oh well. Has anyone else ever heard of arteries moving out of the way of a weapon in the act of self-preservation? Me neither. I still want to die. You're a young man, Kevin. You have a ton of things going for it. No, I don't. You have a beautiful wife. She's gonna leave me for this. I'm not stupid. I know my wife. She's gonna be gone after this. You'll always have a son. You're always a father. Do you have any other children?

Yeah a couple more. When you hurt yourself or when you cut your neck the first time you said you did it three times today? Oh I did six. I did three on one side. I just dug in. Yeah. No, no, no. Because it's supposed to work. Did you have a bandaged up when you went to the hospital? Yeah because I was bleeding everywhere. So did you have it bandaged up when you went to the hospital? Yeah, because I was bleeding everywhere.

So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just-

So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just-

So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So, it's just- So on your way to find another weapon to commit suicide with. Did Kevin realize you can't take it with you when you die? Are these things that a truly suicidal person would be concerned about? On the other hand, it's almost no surprise that Kevin might want to try to kill himself after hearing the accusation of pedophilic rape from his wife. It makes even more sense if we assume the accusations are true. Petaphiles don't do well in prison. And ex-cops do even worse.

Kevin, assuming he had raped this little girl, was both. Kevin had a bad track record with his marriages. This was his last and final wife, and she was leaving him just like the others had. His first marriage began and ended before he was inducted into the RCMP. The first wife recounts that Kevin often used intimidation to get his way. He used the tactic with everyone in his life. She alleges that he was always arguing with her and became physically violent towards the end. She claims that he pinned her against the wall and choked her out during a fight.

The couple didn't have any pre-marital sex. When they got married, right after consummating the nupsholes Kevin's wife decided she'd never wanted to have sex with him again But he forced her When she got pregnant she must have realized she did not want a child with this man and she had an abortion She lied and told her friends and family that she had a miscarriage, and eventually she and Kevin got divorced. When his first wife found out that Kevin had become an RCMP officer, she wondered why on earth anyone would give this man a gun. His second

marriage wasn't any better. She was 17 and he was 24 when they met. With this wife, Kevin had a few children. She stayed with them for 13 years and recalls that during the marriage, she forgot what it felt like to be a human being. His children from this marriage have undergone intensive therapy after living in this hostile environment Kevin created. The family therapist assessing the children stated quote, It is clear to me that the children remain concerned and impacted by the exposure to past experiences of domestic violence. They remain fearful of their father, Kevin Gregson, and fear that he has the potential to

continue to present a physical and emotional threat in the future. Kevin made threats to his family constantly, saying things like, if you ever leave me, I will burn down your parents' house with them in it. The night he choked his second wife, who was seven months pregnant at the time, she remembers him yelling, I will kill you right here. When the child was born, he went on to threaten his wife's parents, even pointing a gun at his mother-in-law's head and telling her, I am the authority in this house.

And it doesn't end there. Oh no. The abuse Kevin's children endured while he lived in the home was endless. He kicked his six-year-old daughter down the stairs on one occasion. He punched holes in the walls, destroyed furniture, threw his wife around in front of the kids, and beat the family pets. Are you a fan of Kevin Greggson yet? When Kevin's second wife told him she wanted a divorce, he blew a gasket. He choked her out on the bed until she almost blacked out, and then pointed a gun at her.

He said, quote, I hate messy crime scenes. And told her he would kill her in the laundry room with two bullets to the chest and one to the head. He then slept the rest of the night between his children with his loaded pistol underneath the pillow. He didn't want her to take the kids away from him. Miraculously, he did not kill anyone that night. They eventually got divorced, but his ex-wife lived in constant fear that he may come back and finish the job someday.

Kevin's third and final marriage followed the same pattern. The couple had one child together and remarried in April of 2009. They really didn't have much time together as a married couple before someone accused Kevin of raping that 10 year old little girl. Kevin is one of those people who, when called out for his bad behavior, says things like, well, I'm just a piece of shit. I can't do anything right.

I should kill myself. Instead of trying to improve his behavior, or seek help for his internal issues, he's someone who likes attention. Good or bad? Oh, that's what's going to happen, that's what's going to happen. I want you to come to tent, was to die tonight. And because I cut my throat and it didn't work, I needed to go and it's like a bloomy brain's out.

And I need the only people who have guns or police officers. And so I went down to the hospital because the hospital has always had police men there. And I'd say, I want to the hospitals have always had policemen there. And I'd say, I wanted his gun, I wanted to die. It's all. It was three days after Christmas, the 28th of the month. 51 year old Eric Chapnick, a constable in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police,

pulled into work. His shift was to be at the late-term road detachment for the Ottawa Police Department. He was supposed to start the shift at 9pm, but showed up almost an hour early. He was sitting at his desk catching up on emails over the Christmas holiday. A call came in from dispatch at 9.32 pm. A man had waltzed into the Metcalf library about 11 miles from where Eric Chapnick sat just before the library was scheduled to close at 8.30 pm. The man sat himself down at a computer and right before the doors were locked for closing and the library was vacant, he attacked the one remaining librarian.

She was simply trying to get everything in order so she could close up and go home. But her night took a turn downhill. The man beat the helpless librarian into submission, injuring her. He tied her up with a telephone cord and then raped her. After the deed was done, he ran. The librarian still in a days from what had just occurred somehow managed to free yourself from the restraints and called 911. Constable Chapnick was the officer tasked with taking notes about the attack directly

from the rape survivor. This took place at a hockey arena across from the library where the attack occurred. It was 9.50 pm. Meanwhile, Kevin Gregson was stealing a car from some innocent teenagers. Yes, another stolen car. Two in one night.

The kids had just left a coffee shop and were sitting inside the Honda when Kevin opened the driver's side door, pointed a BB gun in the kid's face, and according to the victims yelled, This is a car jacking. Get out of the car. Where's the car? Oh yeah, the car jacked at the tomorrow. I told you guys already. I just took it. I just got to see what I said, and he took it.

He just took it. Like everything else in his life that he may have wanted. He just took it. What did they say? Okay, and they got out. That was it. You just told him you wanted the car. That doesn't seem like it. The terrified teens exited the vehicle and Kevin pleasantly thanked them, like the polite Canadian he was. In fact, one of the kids even asked if they could grab their Lady Gaga CD from the car before he took off with it. But Kevin decided there wasn't enough time for that, and he sped off.

Whereabouts in the parking lot was it? Another parking lot pretty well. Ring for the Tim's. Well, there's a police station right across it. You know, that's what makes it even really audacious. Well, why didn't you just go over there and wait for a police officer? So you were looking for a guy? Actually, what?

I drove around a lot, about three times looking for a guy. But they were all off-shift. Kevin drove the car across the street to the police station and parked the vehicle in a spot meant only for patrol cars. He was waiting for an officer to pull up so he could try and take their gun from them. This seems highly inefficient though, don't you think? Kevin knew already that a police officer would never just give up his gun to a criminal.

Like I said, that's why it puts you to that position too. If someone came to you and said, hey, give me your gun, that's a police officer. You know exactly what would happen. You would not give your gun up. So I don't get what you think that you could go and approach a uniform to officer or any party in the security industry and say give me your gun. Because for the reasons I've already stated, you don't approach a police officer. You know as well as I do, Kevin, if I were to touch your gun when you're in uniform, you know what you're trained to do. I know what I'm trained to do. I just have a hard time grasping what it is.

What was going through your mind? It's uncommon, but not unheard of for someone to attempt suicide by cop. This means that a person deliberately acts in a way that they know will prompt police officers to respond with deadly force. The most common method of attempting suicide by cop is to point a gun at an officer. The problem was, Kevin didn't have a gun. He just had a BB gun with him, which is what he used to coerce those teens in a handing over their Honda. And that fake gun could have worked if he was

really trying to die at the hands of an officer, but he didn't use it. As Kevin sat in the police cruiser parking spot, waiting for one to just pull up next to him. He realized that cops would probably already be out looking for the stolen vehicle he was in. He pulled the Honda out of the car and went home? Or did the car jacket? Yeah, drove the car. I went home, I just cleaned up the place best I could. Well, would anyone? My parents. I would probably have sat down. Showed my dad my car. My neck and stuff. Still look good bye. Then they draw around looking for me. How do you know that?

Because they sent me an email. How do you know you had an email? They checked on the computer. Oh, it's on the computer at your house. Okay. And that part. And goodbye. Did you tell them what the good bye meant? Yeah. I'm traveling to Europe.

No, I just said I tried to come. I threw it and didn't work. So I had to go find some else. And I wasn't going to drown myself. Because with my luck, I'd fall on the water, and I wouldn't drown. So I had to get a final weapon. Wow, wow, wow. Jeez, boys.

Did you consider any other matter of death or any other way of ending your life? My thing was knife, the knife. But I mean, when the knife didn't work, just to kind of act on about pills, but I didn't want to take the chance that it wouldn't work. Well, they'll work. You know they'll work.

You've seen one. If you take the right amount, but then I just take them all. And that won't do with me. Look, I'm healthy. I'm not going to. And with my luck, I will just end up damaging all my organs. I'm not going to go on to be a.

So you think it's going to be? You think it's. You think you have good luck. You would be able to survive any other fashion. That's not because you're just like, well, you call it bad luck. Some people would say good luck. That's what I consider a knife. That was what I thought about a full-on time.

And it didn't work. So into the gun. That's all. You better go put your boots on so we can wade through the steaming vat of bullshit. Kevin offered excuse after excuse as to why he couldn't possibly just kill himself using some other method in the privacy of his home. Why did he have to involve someone else? Why did he feel the need to inject an element of public danger into his exit from the world?

After his first failed attempt at finding a police officer to target, Kevin drove this stolen car home. He's being dramatic when describing his superficial neckwound. I figured I wasn't coming back so I just enjoyed laying on my sofa. Why did you not figure your dot coming back? Because I could have been shot and killed with the hospital. Suicide by cop. Well you were wearing a bulletproof vest too, that was a matter of fact. How did you figure that was going to happen? I don't know if you could have lucky hit me in the head.

Triple tapy to the chest wound in the head that's on train to do. This is the train's in Depple, but most guys can't do that because they get nervous. The first shot going and the other two will go off. It's you never know. Yes, you heard that right. Kevin was not wearing one, but two bulletproof vests during this entire chain of events. But at the same time, he was claiming that he meant to commit suicide by cop. He had just been complaining about how all of his other suicide attempts didn't work.

So one could assume he wanted it to be easy and fast. Why then would he make it more difficult for officers to shoot him? By 11 p.m., police had apprehended the person who had beaten and raped the librarian over at the Metcalf Library. He was a 15-year-old kid. The boy was charged with sexual assault, forcible confinement, robbery, and by committing these crimes, he was also breaking probation. Constable Eric Chapnick was satisfied with the conclusion to this criminal pursuit, and he drove to the Ottawa Hospital Civic Campus to check on the victim and finished filing out the report. He parked his cruiser right outside the emergency room doors. It was now 420 in the morning. Constable Chapnick was in his cruiser typing up the report when Kevin Gregson came flying

into the parking lot in the Stolen Silver Honda. Kevin parked the car right beside an ambulance, again choosing a spot reserved for authorized vehicles, and found himself facing Eric Chapnick's police cruiser. Chapnick was sitting inside of it. Kevin left home and intended on finding a police officer to murder. This was not a convoluted attempt at suicide. Kevin Gregson was hunting. In his two bulletproof vests and armed with two knives, Kevin got out of the Honda and rushed the police vehicle. The doors were unlocked. Within minutes, paramedics were rushing outside, trying to pull Kevin off of Eric Chapnick. From a distance, it seemed that Kevin was punching the constable, straddling him to keep him in place.

As soon as one paramedic saw the glint of the knife Kevin was using, they realized what was happening. In short, quick bursts of movement, Kevin Gregson was stabbing Eric Chapnick in the neck. So why would you involve another innocent party in your own death? Because I was thinking. I was thinking. I just wanted to go in. I just wanted to die. I still do. I don't want to live now.

But it's just the way it's worked out. So you would, you know, if I go into the pen system, maybe I can get involved in the game, I'll get whacked. If you don't, we're dead there. So, you involved in other innocent parties, another innocent member of this society? Because you couldn't think of any other way to get a gun. I didn't think of him as being innocent. I just thought of him as someone who possessed the weapon that I wanted.

You know that he's innocent? I didn't think of him as an innocent. I thought I was a person who possessed the weapon that I wanted. You know that he's innocent? I didn't think of him as an innocent. I thought I was a person who possessed the weapon that I wanted. So he became a target because he had something you wanted? Well, he's not innocent. He's not innocent. He's not innocent that he's the target. But you know, he's wanted the gun.

That's all I wanted. I wanted the gun. I wanted to die. I wanted to gun. Paramedics wrestled Kevin off of the constable, and he was able to stand up, blood leaking all over his noble uniform, as he made his way inside the emergency room entrance to receive care. One paramedic remembered that Eric Chapnick not able to use his damaged vocal cords, slightly mouth the words,

thank you, to a group of paramedics before going inside for help. A surveillance camera inside the entrance to the emergency unit of the hospital shows the very last moments that Eric Chapnick was alive. He ran in through the door's holding his neck. He left a trail of blood as he walked in and around the corner seeking a doctor. The medical staff held the wounds and Eric's neck with their hands while CPR was performed. He had already lost all vital signs. He was moved into a trauma room and they attempted to give him blood transfusions, but he was losing blood at a rate faster than they could replenish it. He was pronounced dead about an hour after the attack at 5.26am.

One of the police officers who responded to the scene of the murder remembered and court that Kevin Greggson said to him that night, quote, I came here looking for a fight. You city cops are tough. The paramedics who witnessed this event and heroically pulled Kevin off of the constable have memories of the night that will remain in their minds forever. The group of four paramedics collectively wrote this letter to be read at trial as their victim impact statement. of nightmares and flashbacks have some of us reliving the traumatic event over and over, while others are fighting health problems and changes in relationships.

Work functioning has tremendously been affected, so much so that some of us have not returned to work, and one will never work as a paramedic again. Gregson's actions left us with no choice but to disarm and restrain him, instead of being able to help Eric further, leaving some of us with a terrible feeling of guilt. As paramedics, we are trained to help people. Having to watch and feel a man die in your own hands, has left an unimaginable impact. Do you think you're a fair person? I was, I'm not anymore. What?

I'm a monster now. Because it is? Or before? Because it is. Do you think it's unjustified? That label? I mean, it's the label you've given yourself. Do you think it's the label you've given yourself. You think it's accurate?

I was thinking what that is, because it's a Tumac-de-Line monster. And the thing is, is that humans are monsters. But if you told your dad that, that would be before you murdered the officer. Well, you murdered him. That quote's on the side of that. Are people inherently bad? That's a question that's been explored probably since the dawn of our existence. I think a statement that's closer to the truth might be that humans aren't inherently selfish.

We have to intentionally seek to act altruistically. It doesn't come naturally to us. But are all humans monsters? Doing something as awful as Kevin Gregson did is a choice. There's no way around it. We have all had bad thoughts in our heads, but the decision to act on those thoughts is what sets normal people apart from the true monsters. That's something Kevin clearly didn't understand. And it's probably because he's one of them. Innocent, naive people assume that everyone has good intentions, and that can sometimes

get them into trouble. That mindset can sometimes put people like this in a more vulnerable position than the rest of us, making them more likely to be victims of a violent crime. If we follow the same thought process, then perhaps truly evil people assume everyone is bad, and that everyone has the are bad. That's it. That's problematic for me. Yeah, I know, but that's how I view it. I look at everybody and they're all bad. And that's it. And they sometimes exhibit a bit of grid, but most of them are bad. And that's it. And that's being human. Well, that's glass half empty. It's not human. It's glass half empty. You choose to do that. That's not necessarily true. It's like the people that say glass is always have full and everything's all rules. You will last on true either.

Eric Chapnick was someone who had a glass half full mentality. He was the oldest recruit ever to be inducted into the Royal Canadian Mounted Police at age 48. He was also the first Ottawa police officer to be killed in the line of duty since 1983. His fellow officers called him Pickles because of his Polish roots. He always followed a shot of vodka with a pickle or with pickle juice as per Polish tradition. Eric Chapnick left behind his wife Anna and his three children, two of them adults, but his youngest son was only three when his father was killed. These three children will never get to see or speak to their father again. And what makes that feeling sting, just a little worse worse is that he was killed by a fellow officer, someone who should have been serving the community, just as Eric had, for the

short two and a half years he spent in the service. Approximately 8,000 people from all across the country came to pay their respects at Constable Eric Chapnick's funeral. Eric at 48 was the oldest recruit in the history of the auto police service. In 2007, the recruiting officer was challenged as to why we were hiring a 48-year-old man. The response I've never seen someone want something so much I know that he will give us best. That right there is the great distinction between the two types of officers, these men were. Both Eric Chapnick and Kevin Gregson wanted

desperately to be part of the Mounty family, to where the Red Uniform, to attend training at the Depot and be respected as a member of the service. The difference between them is the intention. While Kevin had to fulfill his desire for power in some way to ultimately be feared by the public, Eric Chapnick simply wanted to do a job that served his community. He wanted to be a police officer that people looked up to. police officer that people looked up to. He wanted to be a symbol of safety. Kevin wanted to be a symbol of fear. Going up and watching my siblings' brothers and sisters, not my baby brother, and seeing all the changes he has

constantly through the years, without any words ever needing to be spoken, I have learned what kind of father I'm working with. This is Eric's widow, Anna. Eric was a very special person. The most important thing that I would say about Eric is that he was very honest, hard working. He was a little bit of a perfectionist. Not in a very bad way, but sometimes it could get annoying. But he was, first of all, very Polish. He cherished his roots.

Second of all, he was a father and then a police officer, I would say, in that order. Certain point in his life, he became in his mid-40s. He became comfortable with English, with being in Canada, being part of Ottawa and the community. And he basically one day told me was completely out of the blue, that he would always wanted to be a police officer. And that was his dream.

And me hesitating a little bit. Frankly, I don't think realistically I thought that it will happen. But I encouraged him. I said, I view, this is your dream. Try it out. And that's what he did. And he's proven me wrong and he became a police officer. Not many people are brave enough to make such a huge career shift so late in life with a family to support. It was a bold move, but it paid off. Eric was good at his job, and he loved it. You know what? One thing that I find myself repeatedly saying to Anthony about Eric is

that he's watching over us. Anthony is one of Eric's three children. In a sense, we're lucky. Anthony often refers to not having a father and losing a father in his childhood. In his early childhood, he was three years old when it happened. He misses him. He misses. He goes to hockey practices. They're mostly fathers there. And then it's me. He misses that dad cannot see his accomplishments in hockey and soccer. Eric Chapnick's widow, Anna, says that being killed in the line of duty must have been Eric's path. It was an inevitable path and dying as a police officer was just calling.

I became a part of the family in blue. He experienced it in his life and he fulfilled his dream. That's what he wanted to do. And this is, it ended quite badly, but that was his calling, I guess. Some believe that certain people are called to do certain things on this earth to make a difference or an impact. Kevin Gregson believed himself to be a monster. He knew it before, he killed Constable Chapnick, and he decided for some reason that killing a member

of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police would make him feel better about his failures in life. All the rage inside of him built up over decades of perceived injustices, and it just had to go somewhere. Most people take their anger out to the weight room, or by making art, doing yoga, something productive, something that doesn't hurt other people. Kevin figured he'd just take it out on the people

he was angry at. He wanted to create a media storm for the RCMP and take out one of their officers, permanently. And Kevin, the genius that he is, had already thought of what his defense strategy would be. The fact that you chose to end your life or to check out, that you're okay with that doesn't mean that the rest of the world is okay because you decided to make choices for other people tonight. That's what I'm trying to get through to you. Yeah, but you do understand that would be my defense. Do whatever you want.

Yeah, you hear that? So there's no point. Like, this whole thing is mental health act. It's written all over it. It's like how do you figure that? Because I know How do you figure this is mental health act? Because I messed up because you're depressed. Is that what you're trying to tell me? We've conversed here like two people sitting on bar stools in a bar and That's my point and And the truth is the truth It's so steady free That's my point, and the truth is the truth.

It's so steady, free. Parking Daniel. Parking Daniel, yeah? The mental health act in Canada consists of procedural guidelines for how the country helps people who have mental illnesses, and maybe a threat to themselves or others. Remember, Vince Lee, the guy that decapitated Tim McLean on a Greyhound bus in episode 31? Yeah, he's out. Walk around, live in his life as a free man. Because of Canadian's liberal justice system, and their beliefs about mental illness. What Kevin is saying here is that he just assumes the state will deem him mentally ill, and eventually

just let him go. That's his defense. He'd already been contemplating it, and this interview took place just a few hours after he killed someone. Kevin's face still sported all the injuries he sustained during the completion of his crime. Kevin's murder of Constable Eric Chapnick was deliberate. It was planned, it was calculated,

and he had nothing to lose. Kevin Gregson, a former RCMP officer, has already been convicted of the savage murder of an Ottawa police officer. Now he's back on trial charged with a string of brutal rapes against a ten-year-old girl that are alleged to have occurred in the week before Constable Eric Chapnick slaying

on December 29th, 2009. The little girl told police what happened in a heartbreaking videotape statement to a detective. She said that Gregson raped her four times. And before the fourth incident, she begged him not to do it again. He told her she said that he had more power than she does. And if he wanted to do it again, he would. And there was nothing she could do about it. This right here is why Kevin had nothing to lose. He knew what was coming with this rape accusation.

He knew what was coming with this rape accusation. He knew in his mind that he was guilty, and that this would ruin his life. He probably thought why not go out in a blaze of evil glory? Why not take someone with me on my way out and fulfill my desire for revenge against the RCMP? Kevin loved to use his time with the RCMP to intimidate people and make them feel powerless against him. It happened over and over again. Every time someone would make Kevin angry, or whenever he wanted to aggressively coerce people into doing what he wanted them to do, he chose to use a scare tactic.

The little girl that accused Kevin of raping her, the incident that seemed to set this whole plan of action and motion, turned out to be a viable accusation. The judge found Kevin guilty on all counts. These additional crimes occurred in the few days leading up to the murder of Eric Chapnick. The details of this series of sexual assaults on an innocent child were difficult for the jury to hear in court. The ten-year-old described the police how the then 46-year-old Kevin Gregson raped her on four separate occasions in the week leading up to Christmas. To clarify, he raped this little girl twice in one day

on two separate occasions. The little girl told police that she didn't realize at first that what Kevin was doing to her was in fact wrong. She was only in 5th grade and she mentioned that they hadn't even had the sex talk yet. She was scared of Kevin. She asked him to stop because it was hurting her, but he kept going. Later on, during the trial three years later, the little girl who had since turned 13 spoke to Kevin in an impact statement. She couldn't even get through the whole thing without bursting into tears.

Saying sorry is hard, but forgiving is harder. Jesus had people who betrayed him, tortured him, defied him, hurt him, and in the end killed him, but he always forgave them, each and every one of them. I'm gonna take an example from Jesus and forgive Kevin for what he has done to me. I will forgive him for all the trauma and hurt and changes this has done to me.

This has made me a stronger person, even though it was hard. So I will give the chance of forgiveness if you just say sorry, Kevin. It doesn't have to be now and it doesn't have to be directly to me. You can even say it to yourself, Kevin. But remember, I will forgive." When the court gave Kevin a chance to respond to this impact statement, he launched into a rebuttal that, of course, included no such apology. Instead, he began to ramble on and on

about how he didn't murder Eric Chapnick. The conviction and a 10-year sentence sends a denunciatory message, right, that our children are precious to us and that offenses against children will be punished severely. The victim wished to proceed. The allegations were extremely serious. We felt it was in the public interest

that even though it's a concurrent sentence, that the victim should have her day in court. What the crown attorney or prosecuting attorney here is saying is that even though Kevin got a 10-year sentence for these crimes, they'll be served concurrently. Basically, he's not getting any extra time for this crime. Ah, Canada.

Land of Justice. They sure do love their criminals up there, don't they? After being found guilty on first-degree murder and robbery charges, Kevin Gregson was sentenced to life in prison, which landed him with 25 years before he's eligible for parole. Yeah, they got parole. For murder. Because of sentences for the murder and rape are to be served concurrently, he will still be eligible for parole after 25 years. If they were to be served consecutively, Kevin wouldn't be eligible for parole until he served

35 years in prison. In fact, this rape case was taken to court so that the little girl could find some sort of closure, and so that she'd have an opportunity to address her rapist in person. Kevin got no additional punishment for his actions against this child. None. I'm sure it felt inconvenient for him to have to sit through another trial, but that was the worst of it. And do you think Kevin took the time to apologize for the life he took? Absolutely not. That would be a waste of energy. Not worth Kevin's precious time. That's the way this is going to go. Witnesses and evidence is evidence and witnesses are witnesses and they say what they say and you have the opportunity right now to look up at the camera

and tell that widow and those children. You sit there and you're sorry. Oh, they'll be watching. I said everyone's going to watch this at some point. Yeah, even my people at the R.C.P. I'm embarrassing. Everyone's going to watch. It's embarrassing. You think this is embarrassing? That's all you can think of.

This is going to be embarrassing. You went from flat of. This is going to be embarrassing. You went from flat foot to all the tools to be embarrassing. No. You think this is embarrassing? Is that what you want to finally to hear? Is that what you want to citizens of this free country? Is that what you want people to know about you? Is it you think this is embarrassing? Flat foot to embarrassing, now you're trying to make me feel bad or something. I already feel bad. You do. Well then say it. I already did a few times. No, you think this is embarrassing. You don't know how this will impact the RCMP. You

worry about the image, you image. You have a lot more problems than not my friend. Yeah, that's okay to me. If I get locked up for it, now, my friend. Yeah. That's okay, it's fine. If I get locked up for it, I get locked up for it. Kevin, there's a camera right there. You can't look at that, Kevin. But there's one thing that you want to leave this room to tell Eric's. I'm sure you think. Sorry, but you're dead.

That's it. Kevin, in a white-patted sheath covering his torso, looked up at the camera and the interrogation When asked why he was wearing black clothing on the night he murdered Eric Chapnick, Kevin responded, Why is it not surprising to me that I'm wearing black furniture and white drapes, I'd buy a black BMW with Bayesian Terrier if I ever get out. Why is it not surprising to me that a total douche would want to buy a BMW? And he will get out, by the way. After all, this is Canada we're talking about here.

Expect to see Kevin Gregson on the streets in the year 2034. He will be 71 years old, sprightly enough to rape another child if he feels like it, or maybe kill another cop. He does have that superhuman strength, you know, and all that blade training as well. So if you're in the police service in Canada and happen to be a Royal Canadian mounted police officer, watch your back. That's going to do it for this episode of Sword and Scale. We hope you've enjoyed it. We also hope you enjoy the next two plus episodes, again, available for free on the free

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Like the following fine people did. And until next time, stay safe. Hi, I'm the listener. Following fine people did and until next time, stay safe. there. I was looking and I think the last one, it just seems like you take time off all the time. I thought there'd be another episode by today, which is September 21st and it's not there so yeah it just seems like okay let's say bye. Hi Mike, this is Renee from Bellville, Ontario, Canada. I just want to say how much I love your show. A co-worker suggested it to me when the COVID started and we all separated and started working from our home. And I hate to say it, but I'm sure everyone will understand that I have completely

been and listened to every episode. So just want to tell you how much I love it. I am now a supporter. I tell everybody who extends their long enough to listen to it. I am now a supporter. I tell everybody who extends their long enough to listen to and I just want to say keep off the great work and thank you so much for helping me throughout this COVID with the best entertainment that I can think of. 1. Draw the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line the line of the line of the line of the line the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line of the line the line of the line NG ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ‿ʻ� you