Sword and Scale - Episode 172

Episode Date: October 26, 2020

Child abuse can take many forms and most of the time isn’t obvious. In rare cases it is near impossible to detect. In the special case of Olivia Gant and her mother, Kelly Turner, the signs were there but Kelly was adept at hiding them or convincing those that suspected something that it wasn’t the case.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Hello and welcome to season 7 episode 172 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the war monsters are real. Well as we mentioned last time, if you're on the free feed right now, then you're loving life because plus episodes are available throughout the month of October for free. The next episode will be the last freely available one and will drop on October 25th for plus members and on Halloween for everyone else.

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month's free plus preview then head on over to swordandscale.com slash plus and sign up. You can cancel any time and it really does help us out tremendously. May I have your attention. Excuse me. Pardon me. May I have your attention. It's hard sometimes to get people's attention. And once you have it, it can be hard to keep. And sometimes, even harder to let go.

Because attention comes with something else attached to it. Something intangible. Deep inside the brain. Chemical reactions that satisfy, thrill, and elate. Something that is irresistible and addictive. In October of 2019, Kelly Turner was arrested in her hotel room in Glendale, Colorado, after a year-long investigation. She had a felony criminal history in Texas, but that was from more than over a decade before.

She devoted the last 10 years of her life to being a good mother to her three daughters. Being arrested was stressful enough, but to Kelly, it compounded the grief she felt. Her youngest daughter Olivia died, August 20, two years prior. Olivia Gantt was born in June of 2010, premature. Other than that, everything with her new baby girl seemed fine. That is, until her 9 month checkup. In a post on the blog Pray for the Gantt Girls that started shortly after Olivia's first birthday, she outlined the trials the Gantt Girls were dealing with.

Olivia is a fun-loving 13-month-old cutie. She was born a preemie and seemed to be doing great, just growing a little slow. At a nine-month checkup, the doctor noticed her head was beginning to take on a different shape. At a 12-month checkup, her head was even more misshapen, so we were referred to the neurologist at Texas Children's. They ran some tests and came to discover her skull is fusing together in the front. In the process of all this testing, there was a vascular malformation of the main artery in the brain noticed.

She can begin to have seizures. If the malformation continues to grow, it can push an optic nerve, and she can go blind, or it can even cause an aneurysm. In the short life that Olivia had lived, she was already on a downhill slope. Eventually, Kelly would be informed that Olivia's vascular malformation was inoperable. And after that, it was growing. And after that, Olivia had her first seizure. This caused the one-year-old to have to wear a padded helmet to help reshape her head and to protect her in case of seizure. Of course, Olivia wasn't Kelly's only daughter.

She had two older daughters, Hannah, the oldest, and Samantha, the middle child. They both witnessed Olivia's seizure and were worried about their little sister. Kelly barely held it together, but had to for the sake of her daughters. Samantha, however, was also sick. She was diagnosed with osteomyelitis, an infection of the bone in the inner ear. While she was in the hospital for that, doctors discovered she also had an immune disorder, and advised her to stay away from people because if she caught a cold, she could get really sick. This caused the gant girls to be relative shuttons, focusing more on the well-being of the two youngest girls

over the normal activities children take part in. There could be no more slumber parties, friends over for pizza, going to church, or even shopping at the mall. As Olivia's ailments worsened, and her trips to the doctor took up more and more of the family's time and money, the gants needed help. I met her at church. She come to church in Crossby and she was alone and she looked alone. So I'm a friendly sword and I started talking to her and asked her if she wanted to sit with me. She started sitting with me in church every Sunday. That's how I met her. This is Ruby King, a fellow member of the Crossbeak Texas Church that Kelly and her daughters

attended. I need to preface her audio with the fact that Mrs. King refers to Samantha as Savannah, a mistake likely derived from her actual name mixed with her sister's name Hannah. We had a group called Faith at Church, and on Sunday afternoon there was a group of three that would be like 10 groups and we go visit people that were new to the community or whatever. And I was on the group that got her. It was after church there was the daddy plan ball with the oldest one hand in the front yard. So we asked about Kelly and she said she was inside. An octane door she opened the door and I could see in there her mother, the

grandmother and Savannah was a baby. And she, I said who we were, we said, oh, she stepped down the porch, just shut the door behind her. Started talking to her and she's told me to tell us that she had been in jail and she was had changed her life and, you know, come on, come on to church and you could sit by me. That's not happened. Mrs. King took Kelly under her wing and she had changed her life and, you know, come on, come on to church, and you could sit by me. That's not happened. Mrs. King took Kelly under her wing and she was accepted into their church. That time she didn't have Olivia. She just had the oldest Hannah and she had just had had Savannah. Savannah was a baby. Or she was pregnant that year. We found out she was having a baby. When the Gantz found themselves in need, their church family was more than willing to help.

As Olivia was later diagnosed with a brain tumor behind the vascular malformation and put on seizure meds, the church was there. They held bake sales and other fundraisers to help pay for her and Samantha's medical bills, and to get Olivia a specialized service dog named Hero, who could alert the family to Olivia seizures even in the middle of the night. In a blog post titled A Letter from Kelly, from October of 2011, Kelly thanked her church family. To my church family, friends, and people in the cross-beehumble community,

you have no idea what it meant to me when we started unloading baked goods, when I saw people bringing goods with their children and buying what someone else made. My heart was overcome with emotion. I have been fighting illness with Sam, my three-year-old since October of 2010. I thought to myself and asked why, why God, do you think I can deal with this? I'm not someone who handles problems well. In the past, I was someone who straight from you for years who went against everything I knew you wanted

for me. Why me? Needless to say, he never answered that question. And then in June of 2011, when the youngest Olivia was one, she was diagnosed with a malformation in the artery and her brain. I thought to myself, oh no, here we go again. And once again, I found myself asking the question I knew would never be answered. Why? At the end of the night when the bake sale was over, I was at home with the girls in bed, and I couldn't stop crying. Then

all of a sudden I could hear myself breathe. I could actually breathe. I now know that without a doubt in about two weeks, hero, named Well by Hannah, would become my hero. No longer will I be up all night watching Olivia. I can rest. I can breathe. I can cook my family a meal without it taking hours because I stop every five minutes to check on Olivia.

My faith was truly tested and once again I found myself on my knees asking God to forgive me for my doubts. I am blessed that God chose me to care for his children, Sam and Olivia, while he plans out their life. By January of 2012, Olivia had been diagnosed with celiac disease, and put on a gluten-free diet. Meanwhile, Samantha was diagnosed with cancer and started treatment, but was expected to recover just fine. By July of 2012, both Samantha and Olivia had been accepted into a specialized hospital in Colorado, and Kelly was preparing to move. Kelly entered Daughters,

Samantha and Olivia relocated to Colorado to seek specialized medical treatment. By October of that year, Olivia's diagnoses would grow. In the last blog post on Pray for the Gantt Girls, dated October 31, Olivia was described as having autism, an inoperable vascular malformation, a tumor on the paraded gland, external hydracephalus, which is too much water around the brain, a developmental delay, an L-carnitine deficiency, a seizure disorder, and ciliac disease. All this, in addition to horrible eczema. By the end of 2014, doctors added focal, cortical dysplasia, and intestinal dysmetility,

causing Olivia to need a loop Iliostomy, a medical procedure where her small intestine is pulled and cut in her abdomen opened up and sewn to the skin creating what is known as a stoma. Basically, this little four-year-old girl had a colostomy bag installed. Later, she also had a colostomy bag installed. Later, she also had a gastrostomy tube surgically implanted in her stomach to deliver food. Her various ailments caused her to have trouble swallowing,

her eating at all. She had a hard time expressing herself and would often get frustrated to the point of having an emotional meltdown. Anytime she wanted to walk and play like a normal four-year-old girl, she had to carry a backpack filled with her various medical attachments. In 2015, Kelly started a GoFundMe to help raise money to continue treatment for Olivia. It was after another diagnosis that was even harder to take than all the others.

Olivia was suffering from neuro-gastrointestinal and cephalomyopathy. In other words, Cali describes the diagnosis like this. This diagnosis, however, does not come with a cure, with treatments to prevent or promise of life. This is a degenerative mitochondrial disorder that causes the entire body to shut down a system at a time, leaving those with astomas, central lines to sustain nutrition, neurological deficits, low growth among other symptoms and eventually death. Unfortunately, after everything Olivia suffered in her short life,

he was diagnosed with a terminal illness. Olivia was going to die. They just didn't know when. With her premature end near, Olivia made a bucket list, and Kelly set out to fulfill her youngest daughter's last wishes in an attempt to make the short time she had left worth living. Olivia's bucket list consisted of several things, including seeing the helicopter at the hospital, of several things, including seeing the helicopter at the hospital, being a princess with Miss Colorado, being a fireman, riding a balloon, catching a bad guy with the police, going to the American girl doll store, feeding sharks, and taking care of her animals.

In February of 2017, when Olivia was nearing her sixth birthday, she was granted a wish. The Colorado Make-A-Wish Foundation threw her a party where she was the center of attention and got to dress up as Bat Princess, a cross between Batwoman and a Disney Princess. She said, I want to battle with Batman. We're going to battle Ursula, We're going to battle Ursula. We're going to battle Captain Hook and save Belle and Ariel. Volunteers dressed up as popular animated characters and formed an arc of swords over a purple, sequined carpet that Olivia entered through.

Her first battle was with Ursula from Disney's The Little Mermaid. Ursula is mean out there. After her battle with Ursula, she had to save Belle. After several successful battles, Olivia, the Bat Princess, saved the day and made an unforgettable memory. You could give me all the money in the world and I'll give it back to you to be able to watch this again. By April of 2017, Olivia captured the hearts of Denver. When the Denver Police Department heard of Olivia and her bucket list, it just had to help. One of her wish list is to catch bad guys with police.

We got a call. We're going to go catch a bad guy, alright? My mom's pregnant, guys, too. Here we go. We're gonna go catch a bad guy, alright? My mom's car is passed too. Here we go. Olivia dawned a little police uniform complete with a little badge and rode along with officers to the bad guys hideout. When they arrived, they quickly took the bad guy into custody.

Another officer played the bad guy and was handcuffed by Olivia before being taken back to the station. Later, she was given a tour of the station and the chief of police presenter with a special gift. The Denver Police made Olivia the honorary police chief for a day. Another great memory for a little girl with not long to live. Seeing her smile and look out the window and knowing,

it was all about Olivia. That was Olivia's day and just, it just made me happy to know that I made this little girl smile and be happy. The outpour of support was enormous, but Olivia's fans didn't stop there. The fire department also wanted to fulfill one of Olivia's bucket list items. We found out that she wanted to do this. We were very thrilled to be able to help out.

Oh my gosh! This is Olivia, we need you to respond to them. help out. The little dan and denver south metro fire departments joined together to make a livia a fire fighter for a day. When the giant red fire engine arrived, a livia was surprised at how large it was. The fire fighters took a livia to the local training facility where they staged a dumpster fire. She was hoisted up to the truck's bucket with two firefighters who helped her manage the water cannon and successfully extinguish the fire. Another day saved.

All the firefighters kneeled in a line so Olivia could give everyone a high five for a job well done. Where are you going? Thanks for being a great boss. There we go. Kelly did her best to express the gratitude she felt for all those that made Olivia's bucket list come true. She is a ball of fire.

Today, her wish came true to become a firefighter. She's in intestinal failure and we don't know how much longer she has. And so we made a bucket list and one of her things was to become a firefighter. She wanted to do this. I didn't know that it would come true. I mean, I don't even have words to describe how I feel. It's just a bunch of ball of emotion. The outpouring of support that our little community has given,

you just can never repay the whole. So here's my bucket list. Be a fireman. We got to do that, so they have to check it off. And when Olivia was asked how she felt saving the day. Awesome. I was resting for a how she felt saving the day. Awesome. I was resting for a while so I could feel good. Olivia was able to mark a few things off her bucket list

in the early part of 2017. By May, Olivia was practically bedridden, not able to exert herself for more than half an hour at a time. Her grandfather, who she called POP-Hop, posted a video of him and Olivia producing a video for YouTube. Olivia was in her bed in a purple and pink room just off the kitchen, presumably to be more accessible if she had an emergency. Hanging behind her was an IV solution bag, but she seemed to be in good spirits. The opening of The Bad Girls, episode one and two. May 15th, 2017. Hey action.

Hey guys, it's Olivia. I'm gonna see you in Papa. In Papa. Today we're gonna make a video about The Bad Girls. The Bad Girls. Episode one. Episode one. Episode one. Episode one.

But Popso will come and solve some cold. Stacy will come and say. Oh, okay, dude. No, no, no. Papa, baby girl. I need to be. Papa, she has to wait. Oh, okay.

Papa, does her potential is below. What? Okay. Oh, Papa. Oh, okay. Papa's hypertension is beloved. Wait, okay. No, Papa. Oh, okay. Papa said he has to say. I'm not there. Papa says Stacy got out of bed. Stacy got out of bed.

Stacy got out of bed. No, Papa. You're supposed to say Stacy got out of bed. Stacy's over there. No, Papa. Say your own voice. Okay, Stacy's out of bed. Oh, Stacy's out of bed. Mom, Mom, I'll say your own voice. Oh, yeah, Stacy's out of bed. She watched that. It's all repulsive.

She seems repulsive. So what are you told me here? You're not supposed to be up. Say, say Stacy. I think the clue depth is so high. Mom, I'll first read the same thing. OK. Thank you guys so much for watching. A comment down below and subscribe for more videos. the episode.

The plot of Olivia's production centered around Barbie, Stacey, and Rapunzel. Stacey and Rapunzel. Stacy and Rapunzel trick Barbie into drinking a potion that turns turned into a Barbie! Wow! Pumpe say and the Barbie screen. And Barbie screened! After episode 2, the video explained that Olivia usually needed to rest after any period of activity. That was May 15th. In June, Olivia celebrated her 7th birthday. By July, Olivia was admitted to Children's Hospital, Colorado, and doctors said her nutrition was insufficient.

That is when Kelly had to make the hardest decision of her life. She opted to cease medical treatment and artificial feeding, because Olivia's quality of life was so poor. The doctors signed a do not resuscitate order and Olivia was taken to Denver hospice to die. Few weeks later, Olivia passed away. Olivia Gantt dreamed of serving our community as a firefighter or a police officer. Both dreams came true by the age of six. She passed away this week at the age of seven. Olivia was laid to rest at the Seven Stone Cemetery

with a headstone that reads, always be joyful. This is where the story takes an odd turn. A year after Olivia died, Kelly took Samantha, the middle sister, to Colorado Children's Hospital, saying she was complaining of bone pain. Presumably, this stemmed from her cancer, mentioned on Kelly's blog, but the doctors considered her visit odd for many reasons. When they were down here, she said Savannah had cancer. And then, you know, every once in a while, she'd say something about Savannah, but not really.

And then, she went to take her down there, and they said they had the records here. And so they called, they remembered her from Olivia, and called down here to use it. They said there had the records here and so they called they remembered her from Olivia and called down here to use They said there was no records The first reason doctors found it odd that Samantha was there and Kelly was asking for cancer treatments Was that they had never seen Samantha before? That's right Samantha was never admitted to Colorado Children's Hospital for specialized treatment,

like she told her church in Texas. Second, Kelly couldn't provide any medical records from diagnoses or even previous treatment. Lastly, they remembered her and poor Olivia. Doctors likely thought, hey, aren't you the lady with that other terminally ill child? Wait a minute, something's not right here. Doctors would eventually call the children's hospital in Houston, Texas only to discover that Samantha had never been there, either. How could this be?

Kelly had documented the medical treatment of her daughters for years on her block. When doctors in Colorado saw the block, that's when everything clicked. They immediately reported her to the authorities, and that was what prompted the investigation into Kelly Turner. There's a concern that Turner has lied about the children's medical conditions and therefore may have caused harm to the children and or cause them to have significant medical procedures. When detectives asked Samantha about her cancer, she told them what her mother told her. She said her mother said that she had an unknown type of cancer. Case workers decided to perform an experiment.

of cancer. Case workers decided to perform an experiment. They separated Samantha and Kelly, and lo and behold, Samantha never exhibited any medical symptoms or complained of pain after that. When detectives interviewed Kelly, she brought up Munchhausen syndrome by proxy, completely unprompted. completely unprompted. That has never been my case, like at all whatsoever. You can talk to anyone that stood by my side through Olivia and all of this. To doctors and detectives in Colorado, the answer was now obvious. Kelly made it all up. But to be sure detectives exhumed Olivia's body, the results would be damning.

Dr. Kelly Lear performed the autopsy and found that not only did Olivia not die from intestinal failure, but there was no evidence of any of the other ailments Kelly said she had, except for eczema, which is basically just a rash. This leaves us with several questions. What is much housing syndrome by proxy? How did Kelly convince educated doctors that her daughter was indeed sick when she wasn't? How did she get away with it for so long?

And most importantly, why would she do this to her child? To answer these questions, we contacted Michael Weber of Mike Weber Consulting in Tarant County, Texas. He's an expert in investigating cases just like this one. I'm a 36 year police veteran. I've worked 15 years in crimes against children. I became specialized in munch houses by proxy and I've investigated 30 claims of that abuse and filed 10 criminal cases on that abuse in Tarant County, Texas. All of those in Tarant County, much more common than people might expect. We asked Mr. Weber to explain what Munchhausen syndrome by proxy or MVP is.

Munchhausen is just doing it to yourself, right? So presenting false symptoms in yourself. Munchhausen by proxy is doing it to the child or someone in your care. My child is a paparazzi medical child abuse, a factitious disorder imposed on another pediatric condition, falsification, there's about five or six different names for this. The main thing to realize, the difference is the difference between two names. That is medical child abuse and factitious disorder imposed on another. Factitious disorder imposed on another is the DSM-5 definition of this abuse. And the difference between medical child abuse and factitious disorder imposed on another is strictly motive based. Medical

child abuse doesn't care what your motive is, right? You could be doing this for money and it's still medical child abuse. That diagnosis doesn't care about motive. It just deals with the injury to the child. Again, exaggerating, falsifying or inducing symptoms and otherwise healthy child. The, in fact, this is sort of imposed on another, there has to be an attention seeking element and it has to be the primary element. And in most of these cases, it is. FYI, the DSM-5 that he refers to is the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders, fifth edition, published by the American Psychiatric Association.

Before the fifth edition, MVP wasn't even in the book. Before the fifth edition, MVP wasn't even in the book. The bottom line is MVP is presenting false medical records for your child or a person under your care. To what end, you might be wondering. Well, the number one motive for this is attention. You may have heard of this syndrome and may be familiar with the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case from episode 49 of Sword and Scale. You may have heard of the syndrome and may be familiar with the Gypsy Rose Blanchard case from episode 49 of Sword and Scale.

But you probably don't have any idea how prevalent it is. Mr. Weber has prosecuted 10 cases just in one county in Texas. The reason it is increasingly becoming more common, if you were going to commit this abuse in 1992, and you want to present false symptoms to a doctor and had no medical knowledge, you would have to go to the library, you'd have to put in a ton of work.

Now, it's just a Google search away to find the symptoms that you need to present. You also throw on top of the attention-seeking aspect, which again, back in 1992, it was thought that the attention was mainly trying to get it from doctors or medical professionals. Well social media has opened up a whole new avenue of attention seeking ability for these offenders.

Both the training and reward are available at just the click of a mouse. Hey, I've been telling you that the internet is a tool for evil now for what? Like, seven years? Now, here it is. Here's proof. You have that aspect of it. And then you also have that we're now starting to realize what this is. I still say, you know, we're basically where we were in the 1960s with child sexual abuse

with disabilities. It's not nearly as common I don't think. We don't know. I don't think it is, but we don't really have any systems in place to identify it or know really what to do about it. As support for his statement, he presented the experience of a children's hospital that attempted to develop a program specifically designed to try and identify and stop cases just like Olivia's. There is a local children's hospital. They started a program where this could be reported and there would be medical

record review done. You know for a child abuse pediatrician, if they get one of these cases, let's say the child's three or four. I've got a case right now I'm looking at where the child was two and a half years old when it was discovered and there's 10,000 pages of medical records that have to be going through page by page. And you can imagine the workload that puts on a child abuse pediatrician to actually go through those records and identify this abuse. They had one nurse and one social worker do that record review on top of their other duties, right? Not even part time just on top of their other duties. And what they found was a shocking, we high amount of referrals.

Now that doesn't mean they're all guilty, right? That's just a suspicion of this abuse. And the only people that could report to that program were medical professionals from that hospital, police and CPS. And that program, February of 18 to September of 19, led to 56 reports of this abuse, which led to actually 14 CPS removals, either temporary or permanent.

And the program actually had to be shut down because they were overwhelmed. They were trying to do this on their own. They're now attempting to get a full time position funded to do that. Okay, so MVP is faking an illness in the child so that you can get attention and money as a byproduct. Seems almost harmless except that it rarely is. The reality of this syndrome is that usually,

a mother can convince a doctor that her child is actually ill, resulting in unnecessary medications being prescribed and procedures being performed, essentially child abuse. The most common question people have on this abuse is, why would a doctor do a procedure that's not needed? And people need to realize that doctors rely on the history provided by the caregiver for a child.

It is the most important factor in a medical diagnosis. Then people will say, well, why don't they check the records? And I say, well, that's fine. A medical record review done properly to rule out this abuse. Again, sometimes on 10,000 pages of medical records is going to be two to three weeks. Who's going to pay for that?

Are we going to delay care to the child while we do that when the child may actually need care? And this is why doctors trust the history given by the parent. Who would think a parent would do this to their child? You may be thinking about how this is even possible. How can a medically untrained woman convince a person who spent the better part of a decade becoming a doctor that a child is sick when they aren't? Or how can they make decisions without a medical

history, especially when the decision is whether or not to perform surgery on a child? Number one, you have HIPAA, which is designed for health privacy. So you actually have the parent who controls the medical records from other institutions. We don't have a centralized medical record database in this country. If you go to one hospital system, the other hospital system won't even know you've been there necessarily unless you tell them. So if you're a criminal offender

who's attempting to injure your child through unneeded medical intervention, you can simply go to another institution when you're not getting what you want, or you're suspected. And they may not even know that you've been to this other institution. Over 50% of these cases have feeding tubes, right?

Gastric feeding tubes. And I asked my doctor when I first started this, my child abuse pediatrician, why always a feeding tube? She said, well, it's my disease. You starve your child at home. You take him to the doctor. You say he's refluxing.

He's not eating. He has diarrhea. He's in the doctor sees the child falling off the weight chart. Meanwhile, mom is pushing for an intervention. So the doctor's going to do something. And the first six cases of this abuse I worked were feeding tube cases, where we had a gastric feeding tube inserted into the stomach, through the skin, through the stomach wall, into the stomach

where the child can be fed through a tube. And Olivia had that. It's baffling to me with how prevalent the internet is in everything we do, that a doctor can't simply walk up to a computer and search for a patient's medical records from any hospital in the nation. Maybe even any hospital in the world. It seems like it would make their jobs easier and make them more efficient, less prone to mistakes and give them the ability to stop abuse like this in its tracks. HIPAA, or the Health Insurance, Portability, and Accountability Act of 1996, was meant to protect our privacy as citizens, but it seems to do more harm than good, at least

in situations like this. With medical records being at the discretion of the caregiver, doctors operate under the assumption that the mother is telling the truth. Even so, how did Kelly convince them that Olivia was having symptoms that she wasn't? Well, there is the internet, but there was also this. Our mother would leave the room to go stand behind the nurses and watch over their shoulders. She got their codes. They're signing codes by doing that.

And what trying to find the information, so she could say it, and Olivia would stand down there in the door and scream to the top of her lungs for her mom to come back. These offenders are extremely manipulative. They present very well. Are they seem to really love their child in public? They are con artists for lack of a better word.

And they rely on people believing what they present on the surface. They rely on no one ever questioning anything deeper. And just like a con artist, once you start to examine that con, it falls apart pretty quickly. But most of the time in these cases cases no one examines that con. But someone did question Kelly's con. Mrs. King noticed things early on that gave her pops. Yes, she seemed to be just fine as a mother. She did. We didn't see where she was abusive, but I did notice that her kids didn't get to talk when they were around people and she was around,

they didn't talk, they just stood there, they didn't get to conversate with us. Now that I look back on it and I can remember, because you know, at the time she would be standing there and maybe holding Olivia and the carrier and Savannah and Hannah would be standing there and we'd be talking and she'd just look at them and they wouldn't say nothing. And you know, as your first impression is, wow, she's trying them well. And now it's like they were told they're not just saying nothing.

Other than the obvious controlling presence of Kelly, other things made Mrs. King wonder. She yelled at me a bunch of times. She told me one time that I was a chief in Wolf Clothing because I questioned her and the way she did treated Olivia. And she posted those pictures of her never-knows oxygen on her, no needles or nothing.

You know, and I said to one of my friends, I said, look, these pictures don't look right. This child don't even have nothing hooked up to her. I live here nothing. And she will maybe, you know. When presented with red flags like these, you try to rationalize what you were seeing and hearing because the alternative that Kelly was an abusive mother

was just too hard to imagine. Even when that thought was furthest from Mrs. King's mind, she couldn't shake the feeling that something just wasn't right with Kelly Turner. They had a dog named E-Rode that was supposed to be her service dog. We all down here, he'll find trained and he up and just up and died one day. Never told us what happened. She said, well he road died today. That's all she said. And also when she would go to the hospital and she would call for prayer when we would offer to come over

there anybody from the church, she would discourage it for what they were reason and nobody could ever come to visit them. And I thought that was strange. And I questioned her about that. She wouldn't let people come to her house, even when they were invited, if something was, you don't have to understand something may be going on at. She may be screaming and scratching herself. I just can't let people come in, even if you were

invited, you can understand this. Just crazy. And there was nothing. She may be screaming and scratching herself. I just can't let people come in even if you're invited You can understand this just crazy and there was nothing Kelly was controlling her daughters and who they got to interact with When Olivia was ill she would tell everyone at the church and online But if anyone wanted to lend a hand or offer support other than monetarily she would refuse Olivia was sick and everyone knew it. But what no one realized was their only source for this diagnosis was Kelly herself. When Mrs. King continued to press Kelly for clarification, Kelly announced they were moving to Colorado for specialized treatment. This news only made Ruby King even more suspicious. When she was moving from here,

leaving a world-renowned hospital to take her child to Colorado, why are you leaving Houston when it's a world-renowned hospital for children? And people come from all over the world and you're leaving. Something didn't sound right. She screamed at me that that's where the doctor was. That was going to be a retreat Olivia. So that's the way we left it. But even after Kelly moved to Colorado, some people in the church tried to stay in touch with her and help her daughters. Some people tried to stay in touch with her.

and help her daughters. Some people tried to stay in touch with her. That was another thing she told me. She said, nobody come to help me. And all this, I said, well, you moved up there away from everybody. Well, that's where the doctor is that could treat her. That's what she told me. And I said, well, it's not any of our fault down here because she was complaining that she was wanting money and people had gotten

tired of sending money. After a while, you know, the whale runs dry and you're up there, just let the people up there help you, you know, your new church. You know, that's how we kind of looked at it. Now, there was one Sunday school class of elderly women that sent the check every week to her on so security helping her out. Mrs. King stayed in touch with Kelly too. Despite this, how she found out about Olivia's death was not directly from Kelly. The method was perhaps the last but biggest red flag of all. She posted a picture on Facebook.

A picture of the baby laying there dead on that bed. I love that little baby. Let me tell you, she died on my birthday. Yep, she died on my birthday. I had just talked to her the day before the baby died or the day the baby died. She was mad at me. When Olivia died there that day, she said, well, it's over when God had a popsicle.

No, it's the hospice in the room. They ate them in the room. You might say that everyone grieves in their own way, but to casually get a popsicle after your daughter dies and then eat it next to her body just seems callous, unaffected, and wrong. At this point, I can't help but wonder how cases like this usually end. Let's say the offender is never found out.

What happens? I don't know that there is a typical ending. The child can definitely die. You can look at the Kelly Turner case in Colorado. You can also look at the Kimberly Sue Austin case in Texas, where one victim was dead before she was caught poisoning her second child with the insulin. That can happen. You can also have the victim age out of the abuse, where they just get old enough to where they can get away from their offender. And because of the papers I've written and the internet access that people have to this, I get a call about once a month at my office from someone who's they that age out of the

abuse asking for resources. I don't have anything to give them. This kind of thing is more common than we realize, mostly because we, as a society, don't have a way to identify it. And certainly don't have any idea of what to do about it. Let alone help those that have survived it. Yet, with everything we now know about the syndrome, wouldn't it be the goal to keep the child alive as long as possible to keep the ruse going? You also have to consider that funerals come with a lot of attention.

And now you get the benefit of being the mother of a dead child and the attention that comes with that. An Olivia's funeral was no exception to Kelly's attention-seeking behavior. Olivia's funeral was no exception to Kelly's attention-seeking behavior. She hired people to dress in costumes that come to the funeral to care the coffin. It was all beyond me. I was like, what in the world is going on? She told me if I came to the funeral, she would have me arrested because I questioned her. Olivia wasn't sick, but Kelly went through enough medical systems and saw

enough doctors on her path to getting Olivia treatment that she picked up just enough knowledge to convince the next doctor to do exactly what she wanted. All the while, she was starving her daughter to make her appearance match her imagined symptoms. Eventually, Kelly did find a doctor, and that doctor performed unnecessary surgery on Olivia. The only question that remains is, why was Kelly purely motivated by monetary gain? And I called the Christian Radio Station in Korkin, in Houston and told them about the situation. At that time, two of her kids were supposed to be charmingly ill and they're going to

die. And they were kids. And we were broke because at that time, there were 10 children in our church that had severe issue, medical issues. And hers was two of them. And we had this drive. They put it on the radio. People came from all over that area

and donated just money, just money. And the whole time it was alive. She had multiple fundraising events, but I don't think just looking from a very surface view of that case, from what's in the media, I don't think that was a main goal. Because what else do you get from fundraising events? You get attention, you get on TV,

you have your picture taken with the police chief, the fire chief, your daughter gets to put out fires and ride with the police officer for a day. And you get the secondary attention of being the good mom, the good parent, how to that. There's always a secondary benefit to a monetary reward, even if it's a make a wish-trip to Disneyland. You're still getting that attention from the Disneyland staff. If they are very outgoing and outreaching in social media about their child, about their child's conditions,

again, that's a tension seeking mechanism. Go find me, things of that nature. You know, if, again, that can be money motivated, but especially the Facebook, the continuous posts about the health of the child, that is showing a need for attention. She pride on the people that were weaker and giving up stuff and helping her and all that.

That's the kind of person she cried on as the weak. If the investigation into Kelly Turner is to be believed, Benelivia suffered at her mother's hands for her entire life. She never had a vascular malformation or tumor in her brain. She didn't suffer from seizures or celiac disease. The water surrounding her brain was the normal amount, and her development wasn't delayed at all. She wasn't going blind, and her intestines worked.

Just fine. She never needed the stoma surgery, or the colostomy, or the gastrostomy. By the time she was six, this little girl had two unnecessary surgeries, and had been convinced her whole life that she was ill, that she was truly sick, that she was dying. But if Olivia wasn't suffering from any of these illnesses, then how did she die?

Well, that's the $500,000 question. No, she starved that child's dead. After a year-long investigation into the allegations that Kelly Turner was falsifying her daughter's medical records, the state of Colorado finally filed charges, but it was a long road to find charges that would stick. I do know that there is no medical child abuse law, criminal law in any state, in the United States, specific to this abuse. Even though it may be medical child abuse that's occurring,

because of the way the laws are written in different states, especially in my state, sometimes it's extremely hard to get to a criminal charge. For instance, if the abuse is, let's say, it's psychological, then always have to be physical, right? They can be presenting their child with psychological issues and getting medications. I have very little in my law that allows me to charge for those medications and I have to have solid proof, which is hard to get with the psychological condition. So laws, and there is no law in

any state specific to this form of abuse. There is no medical child abuse law in any state criminal law. I'm speaking of. So it makes prosecuting these cases very tough. But Douglas County, Colorado, where Kelly Turner was arrested, was already beginning to prepare for the eventual charges against her. I did a training for the Douglas County Child Advocacy Center on this abuse. Normally in trainings, when I go, I spend about the first 30 minutes explaining what this is, because a lot of people don't get it.

But we did an introduction session before I started, and it was very clear from those introductions. They knew exactly what this was. They wanted to know what to do about it. And Douglas County is 200,000 people. And the amount of cases they had was even surprising to me that they were looking at. Again, suspicions that they were looking at. Olivia Gant died August 20, 2017, not long after her seventh birthday, less than two years after her mother Kelly Turner was arrested under a Colorado grand jury indictment with 13 individual charges.

When Mrs. King finally got the word of the indictment, she was validated in her suspicions. You know, you think back on it now, we're like, how did we miss this? And, you know, I didn't nobody see this. And see, you know, when you're not a liar, you don't think people's always lying. I couldn't understand it at the time. I had prayed and prayed about that situation for you all that time. And I had an intuition, something was wrong. I could not figure it out. And I couldn't wrap my mind around a mother, hurt and a child.

And I know this girl that's hit by me for six years in charge. Now come on. Well, how in the world did we miss that she came down and they up delivered shut in meals? And that little girl had sores on them. She wouldn't let people pick her up. But it was from that scratch and from that, the cheek, the like, it was all this other stuff. She was charged with two counts of first degree murder for the death of Olivia, each with

different mitigating factors. There was one count of child abuse for seeking medical treatment for Samantha after Olivia's death. There are three counts of theft. One for all the money that Medicaid and Health First Colorado paid for Olivia's treatment amounting to over $500,000. One for over $22,000 she gained through her GoFundMe account, and the over $11,000 the Make-A-Wish Foundation spent on the Bat Princess party and the $3,000

from the Professional Miracle Foundation. The final theft charge was for not paying the funeral home and the cemetery where Olivia was prepared and buried respectively. The theft charges were followed by three counts of charitable fraud for all the same reasons. Finally, two counts of attempting to influence a public servant and two counts of forgery stemming from applications for benefits Kelly filled out with false information. In fact, in an application she claimed Olivia's father was an absent parent that was unemployed, the truth was that Jeff Gantt was employed

and had health benefits through work that covered his daughters. Furthermore, Jeff was even sending Kelly $900 a week and living expenses, even though he stayed behind in Texas when they moved to Colorado. It's just the typical pattern that we see in these cases. There's the needed tuck case out of Tarrant County. If you go the typical pattern that we see in these cases. There's the denieted tuck case out of Tarrant County.

If you go and look at that case, same thing happened. She had her child, you know, GI issues that couldn't figure out. She had the child in hospice, the child was on TPN. She discontinued TPN. Thank God there was a hospice nurse who conned her into leaving for a 36-hour period where the hospice nurse basically just let the child eat whatever the child wanted to eat and saw that he could eat and saw that he didn't have the things that Anita said that he did. She was attempting to cut off his, his nursemen and kill him and she was convicted of attempted murder and injury

to a child here in her account. Interestingly enough, her prison sentence from that jury was five years. We still don't really punish these offenders for the terrible abuse on these children. As we would, a male offender who just killed a child by force. But if you were to believe the allegations, then this is a plan murder. She planned to do this to this child. Mrs. King believed the allegations. I didn't know much about that illness. I had heard about it. But because I'd seen it on news before I wanted to, you know, times in my life. I never dreamed I would know somebody. to, you know, times in my life. I never dreamed I would know somebody."

That belief caused her to second guess all her interactions with Kelly, specifically Olivia's death day and the death of her support dog, Hero. I wondered if that was on purpose. My thought went, I wonder if she did that on purpose, because she did as my birthday, and she hated me that much.

After I questioned her, she knew I was on to her. She thought I was. I was far from on to her, but she thought I was because I was asking the right questions. See, I have a lot of common sense. And some people, they don't grow common sense in their gardens. But my garden's full of common sense. And I'm thinking this don't sound,

if it don't smell good, it's not good. There's something wrong here. As for the sudden death of the expensive support dog. My thinking is boys in the dog to see how long it took to kill him with what she gave him. And so she didn't know how long it'd kill her. There he's aside. After the news that Olivia, the little girl that captured Colorado's hearts, was possibly murdered at the hands of her mother. The Make-A-Wish Foundation was just glad they took part in what was likely to be one of the few times Olivia was actually happy in her short little life.

We're just happy that we were able to be a shining light in Olivia's life, And I know that there's a lot of people that got to know and see Olivia smile. The fact that make West Colorado is part of putting that smile on her face is something I'm very proud of. Seven stone cemetery where Olivia was buried until her body was exhumed was more concerned with justice for Olivia rather than recouping their losses. We know that they're doing everything they can possibly do to bring justice to Olivia. for Olivia rather than recouping their losses. In pretrial hearings Mrs. King was there to face her former friend. You know when I went to court that day and I saw her,

it was all I could do to keep from jumping over that rail and knocking her head off. I looked at her, I first came in, I felt sorry for the girl that set by me in church. And as she set there and smirked over that death of that little baby, I wanted to knock her head off. First time she saw me, her face turned as red as that jumps at burr in the ass that sick she had on.

And I sat there and stared at her the whole time. I wanted her to look at me and she'd kind of cut her eye to look but she couldn't believe it. She could not believe it was me. This is King went to all the pretrial hearings in Kelly's case up until the pandemic lockdown. Having already contracted COVID-19 and recovered, she fully intends to return as soon as they let her.

While she was there, she did several interviews with local news outlets in which she conveyed her anger for being betrayed and for what Kelly had done. I think it's pitiful. I think she's pitiful that she's sets up there like she does thinking that she's innocent. I think she's sick. And I can still remember those little eyes looking at me now, wonder if she was hungry and she was trying to speak. You know, I don't know that, but that haunts me. Now she feels a bit differently. With a little time and a little thought, she forgives Kelly.

I forgive her. Do I like her? Absolutely not. Would I like to knock her head off? Yes. But I do forgive her because God said I had to. What I'm praying for and asking God to do is help her to see that she is sick It's just like an alcoholic or drug addict until they admit it. They don't know they are and she admits it and says yes I did this and regret what she did then

That's what we want. She don't need to come into society. She's sick. She's middle-year So they have hospitals and prisons for people like that So they have hospitals and prisons for people like that. That's got wire around them and that's where she needs to go. She's gonna pay for what she did. An angle be here on Earth. Meanwhile, the Gantt family has hired lawyers to fight for the release of all the medical records to the court. They consider themselves victims of Kelly's too. After all, they couldn't have been any closer to Kelly and they had no idea. They wanted to know why those that

could have stopped this didn't say anything until it was already too late. The victim's family in this case have grave concerns that medical providers did not protect Olivia Gantt, that they signed orders with drawing her care and signed orders for her to be sent to Denver Hospice. They would have done anything to save Olivia Gantt, and this is incredibly tragic, and the family is absolutely devastated. So the victim's family, it's very important to them to find out all of the facts and circumstances,

not only about her care, but the circumstances surrounding her death. But someone did, and I'm not talking about a mandatory reporter like a doctor, but another patient. Another source of information for Kelly was a woman whose daughter actually had the disease Kelly claimed Olivia had. She thought something was a bit odd about Kelly Turner and told someone about it. Someone who could have done something, but chose not to. To know you were right in this case is the worst thing you could ever have.

Because you immediately go through and you wonder, did I do enough? Did I try everything? Did I tell the right people? Did I do everything I could of for this child? And you have to make an assessment of your conscience. Among the myriad of doctors, Kelly was able to persuade or circumvent, was a fellow patient

that noticed something odd about her and Olivia and said so to someone she thought would do something. After her report, she never heard a word. Who would believe a mother would do that intentionally? This abuse, it's not an American problem. It's not a socio-economic problem, right? It doesn't just affect one class. Every socio-economic class, there's been cases of this abuse in Saudi Arabia.

There's been cases of abuse in the Far East. In Africa, this abuse is cross-cultural. It's every socio-economic scale. It's child abuse. Poor Olivia died, only having ever suffered from eczema. That's the only thing that she had wrong with her, physically. Her whole life, that's all. Everything else her mother made up and made her believe that she could go to the bathroom,

that she couldn't hold nothing down, and she'd gone blind, and she had that stomach that hurt and intestines didn't work. She needed a whole intestines, three transplants, and the bowels didn't work, and I just, and there was nothing. Hannah, the oldest daughter, is living with her father in Texas. She was accepted into Boston College a few short months after Olivia's death. Samantha is living with Kelly's parents in Colorado. She hikes with Papa all the time.

They're both doing just fine. All things considered. Olivia lived her whole life believing she was sick. Curiously, her bucket list included police, firefighters, and superheroes. All three being the ones that young children are taught to trust when they need help. Perhaps Olivia subconsciously knew she needed help. She needed a hero to save her. Olivia's medical records have been ordered to be released by the judge in her under-review. Kelly Turner is still awaiting her day in court. She was granted a $250,000 bond, but has not been released.

Childhood neglect can wire the brain to seek attention seeking as a means of survival, and a lack of attention as a threat. There's another part of the brain that can supersede this type of behavior, but it is powered by serotonin. And often in cases like this, the person will also have two little serotonin and or two few receptors. When attention is sought and the brain's failsafe, well, fails, the brain derives satisfaction from a new place, drama.

So hand in hand with attention seeking is almost always an addiction to drama. Creating drama quals the need for more attention, chemically, in the brain. Using drama as a reward releases dopamine. Eventually, anticipating dopamine rewards you with a little dopamine. Seeking attention via drama becomes a drug and compulsion in the minds of these people. Combine that with the information age and the ability to solicit drama from a tiny wireless mini computer you carry around with you. And you begin to imagine just how dangerous and widespread this type of disorder can be.

It doesn't always take the form of killing a child though, thank god. It doesn't always take the form of much housing by proxy. There are various forms and various labels that fit the same pattern of behavior. It's a wide spectrum with various levels and types of illnesses, each with their own types of drama-inducing, attention-seeking behavior. So, until next time, try logging off for a while and stay safe. That's going to do it for this episode. We'll see you next week for plus 79. And until then, you can call us on our hotline [phone] if you're international.

Put a plus one in front of it like these. Nice people did. Hey Mike, this is Morgan from Utah. I just wanted to say thank you very much for all of the podcasts that you have done and for your eloquently placed wordings and everything and how you tell the stories or fees poor, innocent souls that have unfortunately passed by truly fucked up people. I'm a single mom and every morning I wake up the butt cracked on and I tune in to listening to your podcast. I think I've listened to them over and over and over again up to where we're currently are right now. And eager for more. And I just wanna say, thank you for being the voice

for these people that got their voices silent that way too young. You know, I love listening in and listening to you narrate these and kind of go into depth about these stories and what not. And it's kind of a highlight, that is at my account. My morning was just listening and what not before my child wakes up. And as a mother, it's one of those things that from these stories are just so hard.

And I always catch myself, get bawling my eyes out to some of these poor parents that lose their children through horrific acts. And I just want to say thank you for being someone there. And I know you're not a parent, but I appreciate you being a voice for these little kids and speaking up to them and telling their stories. So I just wanted to kind of call and leave a short message and say thank you for all that you do and we're glad to have you back you know to swords and scales so I hope you have a great rest of your day

and a safe quarantine. Okay bye. Hey guys this is Tanner out here in Utah with you. Just wanted to say thank you to Mike and the whole team you guys do an excellent job. I think this is definitely the best podcast I've ever listened to. I got hooked on it a few years ago from a friend of mine. It's been a dedicated member plus for ever since. So just want to say thanks to you guys doing such an excellent job. The show's awesome and here on everybody I know about it. So keep up the good work. I truly appreciate you guys and all your hard work on a proud member of Flutt. I can't get enough of the podcast. So keep it coming, keep your stories going,

you guys are awesome. Thank you. you