Sword and Scale - Episode 173

Episode Date: November 8, 2020

We move people who commit crimes far away from our society so they don’t harm anyone else… but many of those criminals will eventually serve their sentences and return to civilian life. Who is worthy of our grace and mercy? And what happens when the wrong person is forgiven?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. You are a con artist, you are a master, you are a devil in disguise, you are now forever exposed. Hello and welcome to season 7 episode 173 of Sword and Scale a show that reveals that the War Smotsters are real. Hey now! How you doing? People hate it when I do that. They go, hey now! Hey!

Let's go on! Yeah. You know, whenever you complain that you don't like something I do, I actually do it more. So at the end of this episode, it's to be jam packed with all of your calls, praising the show. So I'm afraid you really hate that. If you want to call in and have your voice heard, that's the whole point of it. The number is 954-889-6854, put a plus one if you're international. The show is all about the listeners, the fans. So call in and leave your thoughts and we'll put it at the end of the show. Just be succinct.

Don't leave a essay and help us annoy those people that complain about everything. It's fun. And these days you gotta have fun in life because the hell else is there to do. Alright, enjoy this one. I think the reason I'm so chipper right now is because this is gonna be a heavy one this this episode actually Really bothered me in a lot of ways so Clench up here we go Thank you. We had stolen a car. It was a 1976 Lincoln Continental. So it was a brand new car. I was 14 years old. We had gotten into a car chase. There was four

folks in the car myself, one of my best friends at the time, some girls in the back seat and when the police pulled up behind and flick the lights on I said I don't have a license. We're gonna run for it. Jack Wagner is a private citizen trying to make a positive difference in this community. Trying to do some good on a daily basis. But that wasn't always the case, and things could have easily gone in another direction. So I drove the car to a local school yard I knew, because I had gone there as a middle schooler, and I said, we're going to bail out at the other side of this field.

And three of us did bail out and run the fourth person on they had obviously panicked and stayed in the car and we're able to tell the police everything had happened thankfully so because all this changed my life I should say but I remember hearing what sounded like a firecracker and then I heard the police officers say halt halted all shoot and I heard the police officers say halt, halted all shoot, and I heard it again. While he's ashamed of what he and his friends did as teenagers, Jack admits the car chase came

after participating in a slew of exciting, but unlawful activities ranging from breaking into people's homes, taking radios from people's cars, and stealing coins out of pinball machines. That was probably a crime spree that resulted in about 27, 28 charges, grand larceny, breaking and entering a variety of crimes. The judge was, like I said, very lenient, and I got probation as a 14 year old. An ever rebellious teenager in New Jersey, Jack appeared before a judge again at age 15.

This time for driving under age and alluding police on the motorcycle he just purchased. So this is the second time I'm seeing the judge and again probation, some community hours. So I sold the motorcycle and thought, you know, I'll just sell drugs. That seems to be an easy way to make money. But Jack's attempts to sell a pound of marijuana backfired after his mom found $150 in his wallet and later the remains of his stash. She took the drugs directly to the police.

Not an advisable thing to do, there are better ways to discipline your children. But while still in 10th grade, Jack was once again placed in front of a judge where he was charged with possession with intent to distribute, and entered a work release program where he would help clean up the city and talk with a therapist of sorts about his problems. That was way back in 1978. We did things a little differently back then. But just like the youth of today,

kids rarely think about the consequences of their actions. That kind of rebellious stubborn attitude led to one more incident. And that was a Keg party, which the police came along and broke up. It was out in the woods. And when the police showed up, my belligerence overtook me and I said, oh, look what the pigs are doing here or something to that effect.

So that's all they needed. They quickly flagged me through some handcuffs on me and threw me in the back of the car, but the charges that went along with that were drunk a disorderly, resisting arrest, and assaulting battery. As I said, I have been in front of the juvenile judge in my home county, no less than four times. And by the time I was 16, he just basically, he really didn't have much choice. But I would say he was more than fair with me.

Jack was sentenced to a very lenient six months to one year, but his brief time behind bars was an eye-opening experience. When I landed in the reception and correction facility, I remember some of the early experiences of your strip of your street clothes, you're given a shower and a haircut, and I remember one fellow who was cutting my hair. He was from, I think, North Jersey, as he explained to me, he was in for homicide, 15 years. And he was pretty convinced it was a bum rap. I started to think long and hard about my own life at that point and say, here's a fellow who could probably easily take those scissors and if you wanted to,

take my life. This is becoming quite serious. I don't think I want to go down this path anymore. I don't know how many people have that that opportunity of grace and mercy in their lives, but I certainly took a took advantage of it. I met folks inside of the prison system who would recognize the error of their way and had said, you know, I made a mistake and I want to warn you, don't make this kind of mistake. Go start living a better life. I don't know how many people returned to prison back then, what the numbers were, the recidivism rates, and, I think the system was fair.

Grace and mercy. Two words that are supposed to play a role in our criminal justice system. When you're caught committing a crime, you have to face your punishment. And while you're being punished, you have a choice to contemplate. Do you deflect and dig deeper, or do you reflect on your actions and try to make a change? Making that choice does not come easily. People are stubborn and often know nothing but pain and disappointment. But as a society, we also have a difficult decision. Do we accept that some criminals are capable of change? Or do we ignore those asking for forgiveness? Again, it's

not an easy choice to make. Forgiveness, grace, and mercy. Who is worthy of these sentiments? And what happens when the wrong person is forgiven? We'll get back to Jack Wagner's story, but to be absolutely clear, his story is in no way linked to the horrific case will also be unpacking. But there is a duality that exists in trying to understand the way our world works and the way our criminal justice system works. A yin and a yang two sides of a coin andlessly spinning, propelling into oblivion in order to appreciate the light sometimes you have to endure the darkness and it certainly wouldn't be sword and scale without a little darkness.

On July 14th 1991 Gregory Green stabbed Ponya Green, his 23-year-old wife, 10 times in the left cheek, neck, chest, and back. She was pregnant about 7 and a half months. The fetus died as well. After the attack, Gregory called 911 on himself and led detectives to the refrigerator, where he had attempted to hide the steak knife he'd used as a murder weapon. I was totally just not. We talked on the phone to Monica Johnson. It was her cousin, Tanya Green, who Gregory Green murdered in 1991. Tanya's oldest daughter, Danielle Hitt in a closet.

Her youngest Bridget had cerebral palsy and was not injured, but Tanya was pregnant with Green's baby when he stabbed her to death. The last day when they went to the baby's heart, and that's when she actually killed the baby. I hope he never sees daylight again.

And in 1992, Gregory Green's own mother asked the judge for leniency and that murder case. She said, quote, I don't believe a long sentence will make him any better because he has suffered already and will continue to suffer for the rest of his life. What happens when someone you know and love has been accused of a horrendous crime? Most of us will never have to experience this shocking moment.

A moment where your entire universe is turned upside down. But if you are close enough and if you feel strongly enough, you can write a letter to the judge at sentencing in the hopes of helping to spare a friend's life. One such letter dated February 19, 1992 reads, throughout this time. The family has always been a very loving and close-knit clan. Gregory as a child was very kind, loving, and easygoing. Into his teens and adulthood he was the same person. He was very respectful and manorable. I can't remember him ever as being aggressive, rowdy, or even raising his voice. That is why I felt compelled to write this letter.

Another letter from the same household ads. Recollecting on the past, I remember a young man whose life was greatly influenced by a strong family upbringing. Much credit is due, his parents. They have instilled in him the essentials and values so many young men lacked. I recall a conversation with Greg which will always have a lasting impression on me. He announced that he had turned his life over to Christ and was taking a wife who

shared his belief and would share his life. He spoke with such acuity that I wished the best life could offer him. I thought to myself, if willpower and determination were the key to one's future, Greg has unlimited success at his grasp. Other letters suggest Greg is not a threat to society. By nature, not a bad individual. In her request to ask the judge for leniency, Gregory Green's sister explains he is the last of seven children, a quiet,

gentle, sensitive person. And one who knows that taking another life is not just against society's law, but also God's law. She concludes her letter saying, quote, Please find it in your heart not to take all my brother's life. He is not a bad person in society, would not be in jeopardy if he had a short sentence. Incarceration is not always the answer. Gregory Green pled no contest to a second-degree murder, and was sentenced to 15 to 25 years

in prison. Let me say that one more time. 15 to 25 years. Her a vicious, double murder of a mother and her unborn child. But based on the state of Michigan's sentencing guidelines, justice was administered fairly. Gregory Green heard what was apparently a fair prison sentence, and then appealed it, arguing it violated the principle of proportionality. Even though he swore under oath that he understood that his crimes could have carried a life-prison

term, and that he entered his plea freely and voluntarily. He now had the gall to claim his attorneys told him he'd be getting a more lenient sentence than he'd received. According to his appeal, his guilty plea was not freely and not voluntarily given, because it was offered on a quote, mistaken belief. Court documents from this time period in the mid-90s confirms that Gregory's application was denied, saying, it is noted that the defendant's motion contains only vague allegations. The claims in his motion are contrary to what happened in open court. Therefore, they should be rejected as a basis for either reversal or an evidentiary hearing.

End quote. In other words, his original sensing from March of 1992 was now reaffirmed in December of 1994. And so, as we do with many cases that enter our criminal justice system, we've reached a moment of what feels like a reluctant compromise. Gregory Green will agree to serve no more than 25 years for his crimes, and will agree to let him back into civilized society once that time has passed, or even sooner if he behaves himself. At the end of a lot of true crime stories, we focus on how much time the criminal has

to serve, but how often do we consider the significance of a minimum sentence? In many ways, it's a presumptive statement of how much time we assume it will take someone to be truly sorry for their actions. But everyone's story is a little bit different. Here in Michigan, an innate will serve every day of his minimum sentence, and on average, a Michigan prisoner will spend on average 140% of their minimum sentence behind bars in Michigan. So that means, let's say someone was given a 10-year sentence, 10-20, they will serve every day of 10 years. There's no opportunity for that inmate. If he's following all the rules of the institution, he's trying to better himself and

he recognized, like I said, the era of his way. There's no provision, there's no upside for that behavior. And instead, he can probably look forward to, on average, spending 14 years on a 10-year sentence. I mean, if somebody really recognized that they've made a mistake, and they want to turn that around, and they start to move in that direction, let's say they follow all the rules in the institution, they do the work that's being asked of them to do, they look for opportunities to become better educated either academically or vocationally. Why not reward that and say, okay, you get it. I mean, let's face it, most every state has some kind of prison system that ends in the word corrections, Michigan Department of Corrections,

New Jersey Department of Corrections. So if they're trying to correct inmates and the inmates are responding and being corrected, why not reward that? I also think it would go well then for those corrections officers and those that have to deal with the population. corrections officers and those that have to deal with the population. If you give hope to people, they will respond, but if you make things hopeless, I think you're going to have a less content population to deal with, which means probably a harder time for the staff and the officers who work daily with those folks. The system which at its core is designed to help people has shifted in a way that hurts people. On the other hand, part of the reason that shift has happened is because

there are people who hurt the system. People like Gregory Greene, for example, who've mastered another form of manipulation. Because the threat of two decades behind bars is not the end of his story, but merely the beginning. You know, we don't often quote the Bible here on Sword and Scale, but in this particular case, this passage seems fitting. That which hath been is now, that which is to be, hath already been, or translated roughly for you sci-fi nerds out there. All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.

The cyclical nature of life and death is something we marvel at as humans. The supposed end of something, often meeting with some new beginning to something else. Jack Wagner experienced this cosmic repetition in some form as well. By his 18th birthday, he'd finished his high school education and went on to graduate college with a degree in electrical engineering. I didn't look back. I wasn't involved in drugs any longer.

I was focused on my education. I met the love of my life and married her in 1986. We had six children, and so over the years, I didn't pay any attention to the criminal justice system and what was happening because it didn't affect me. Or so, I was to believe, up up until recently when one of my children married someone and that person got tangled up with this justice system. So fast forward, I won't speak too much on that case

other than to tell you, I assumed things would go kind of the way they did for me. I had seen the juvenile judge no less than four times, but the judge was patient, the judge was tolerant of the way they did for me, I had seen the juvenile judge no less than four times. But the judge was patient, the judge was tolerant and he listened and he actually made wise judgments, which is what you would hope for a judge. So I expected that same kind of treatment out of the justice system today. Well, the justice system today doesn't resemble in any way the justice system

of 40 plus years ago. And so Jack formerly from New Jersey, now resident of the state of Michigan, learned of a ballot initiative called the Michigan Prisoner Rehabilitation Credit Act. And this was something that I became aware of, I'd say early 2020, maybe late 2019. And it was an effort to try and restore essentially a credit system of time off for prisoners serving time in Michigan prisons. Time off for good behavior. Because much to my surprise, I've learned, Michigan is just one of a handful of states in the whole country that does not have any kind of system in place to give credits to those inmates who are trying to,

you know, rehabilitate, meaning they've recognized and they've recognized the air of their way and they're trying to turn around and learn from their mistakes like all of us. We know education is a key to success. I can testify to that. Education made a big difference in my life. So you give the folks who have made a mistake a chance to turn that around. Obviously not every individual is gonna raise their hand and say, I wanna go to college,

but let's talk about those that do and that percentage of the population. If we give the opportunity to those folks and they demonstrate that they want to take the advantage of that, I think we have seen a great degree of success. I can't give you numbers, but I know that it improves the odds of success for those that come out and are reintegrated into society for them to go ahead and actually be contributing members of society. Let me interrupt myself and say, this doesn't short circuit the parole process, meaning every

prisoner would have to come before the parole board and the parole board would have to make a decision whether or not they're going to release someone. Let's return now to the story of Gregory Green, who in his first decade behind bars appeared before a parole board on four different occasions, twice in 2004 and twice in 2006. During these years he had completed the institution's cognitive programming course and shown generally good behavior, only having one ticket for fighting over the use of a TV. Despite all of this, each time he was denied release for various reasons, mostly stemming from the notion that Gregory seemed to show no remorse for the crime he had committed.

Clearly appealing to the parole board would not be enough to get him out of prison before he would reach the end of his sentence. Gregory now had to appeal to a higher power. Enter a Puzzle Fred Harris, a civil rights activist and champion for the downtrodden since the 1960s. I desire has never been to be a pastor. My desire has always been to set up a program of residential living program for men. I've been through the same mess I've been through.

And if God can heal me and change me, he can heal and change anybody. Because my motto in the world was, I'm going to shoot dope till I die. I don't care who knows it. And I'm going to sleep with as many women as I can. That was my motto. And so that was an about very much. So if he could change me and give me some substance, then I want to be a flag or whatever I need to be to get the attention of other men and women too.

But my desire really has been all these years is to use the church to build up an army of men and women that we can begin to then take inner healing around a world, as well as utilizing these centers for men to stabilize them, help them to get occupations or whatever where they can make a decent amount of money to take care of their families, their families need to be taken care of, become self-employed, whatever it takes. Based on letters that Pastor Harris sent over the parole board, Gregory was a member of his church prior to his arrest. Pastor Harris wrote, by understanding their origin, how we have been affected by them, and what we must do

to change them. The process is called inner healing and deliverance. With this technique in mind, while interacting with Gregory, I've noticed a great deal of growth. If he has to be released, he would be welcomed as part of our church community. And whatever we could do to help him adjust, we would. With support from Pastor Harris coupled with the completion of educational and psychological programs within the prison, Gregory appeared before a parole board once again in 2008. Decisions to release a prisoner are handled by a three-member panel. But if the first two votes are the same, then the third vote is never cast. And on February 8, 2008, after 16 years served and two votes cast for release, a parole

board report stated, quote, reasonable assurance exists that the prisoner will not become a menace to society or the public safety." The same report states Gregory's release date just a couple months later in April of 2008. Pastor Harris, who traveled as far as Ghana in Africa to spread the gospel, was a man of his word, not only by accepting Gregory Green back into his church, but also by embracing him as a new son. Just two years after his release from prison, Gregory Green became married to the pastor's daughter, now named Faith Harris-Creen. Pastor Harris believed with his whole heart that everyone

could be healed inwardly, if only they accepted Jesus into their heart. And now, his new son-in-law was on the path to proving just that, a formerly murderous man now embracing the word of God and driven by a higher purpose. Then again, maybe sometimes we only see the things we want to see. Gregory, what's going on? Yeah, but I feel some people in my family. Okay, what's... Tell me what happened. I just want to turn myself in. I know I'm going to serve as my last mom life and I deserve that. Okay. You know, I killed my...

I killed my... I killed my two... I killed my two born dogs. I killed my two... Okay. Your two daughters. Chloe is a student who is going to be trying to six years old and October 28th. Kaley just had a birth baby time four this month of the fifth and my wife. Thanks to her. I did what I did. I did what I did and then my two step kids. This 911 call was recorded at approximately30am on September 21, 2016.

Eight and a half years since Gregory's release from prison and 25 years since he murdered his first wife and unborn child. And just like he had back in 1991, now in 2016, Gregory used his freshly blood soaked hands to call authorities on himself and confess to tie myself. No, no, I understand. I understand. That's probably the best thing to do. Here, what does that know to do? I can't really want to kill myself, but you know, I don't know. I just hope to exceed my girls. My girls are not enough.

I know my babies went to heaven. I know it's not right, but I took them. You know, that I sent them there. It's not right. But I knew I was going to do what I had to do you know, that I sent them there, it's not right, but I knew I was gonna do what I had to do because my wife, she's a piece of work. Right, right. So she said, for sure she's, she's still pushing here.

She's, I tried to tell her to be, being a house. Right, right. She wanted to be the house. Oh, and you're arguing, it's always best to leave the house. I tried to leave the house, but there's, it's the biggest house to me, it's my house. She's and you're arguing it's always best to leave the house. That's right. So leave the house, if it is, leave the house to me. It's my house. You can't leave the house.

I didn't tell her to come back. You said, right. If you want to leave the house, if you want to put her out, you'll do all this stuff. My girls, and I'm not going to leave the house. Well, no, they don't just leave the house. I'm not about to let them suffer. Leave them here.

There's some of those mercy. And maybe in a prison wondering and worrying about them, you know, I don't think they're alive. I knew I could. I can't. I can't. I had to be ready to try to change it, try to do the wrong way, and that's the part of me couldn't.

Well, no, you're doing the best thing you can right now. No, I just once I went, once I went, said, well, once I went there, I couldn't Gregory waits outside on the front porch of his house for police to arrive in his Nike track pants, gray shirt, and black fitted cap. It's quiet on the line for a moment. Gregory, no doubt wondering how he put himself in this same position yet again. All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again. I hate to leave. I knew it was going to be a grizzly gruesome, terrible thing. And I didn't get to do this again because I came.

I looked at Susan Lutz, I came back out, looked at Susan for killing my wife, you know, come back out, just try to make her life a new life, you get a new start, you know, but I didn't get that first start, like I wanted to and my loving wife, you know, she wanted to keep person and push me and she said, no, not to mention to mess with him especially my history, my path. You know. Right. No. I just want to go.

I can't turn around, I'm sorry. No, I mean you know him. I can't change a knot. It's done and I'll hit right now. So Malcolm Alicia, we are at hip and enapolis in Dearborn Heights and I can't change it. It's gone and I'll hit with him. So Malcolm Alicia, we are at hip and enapolis in Dearborn Heights and I can tell you police are standing outside in the front lawn of this home.

They tell us they can knock it into the home just yet. They are still waiting on a search warrant, but they did tell us they were called out here at about 120 this morning by a man who told dispatch he had just killed his entire

family. When the police got out here, they tell us this man was on the front porch waiting for them, and he was arrested. So once inside police tell us they found two teenagers dead inside this home. We know a woman and her two other children were taken to the hospital with both of

them were all three of them were injured, but police she tells us both of those children have since died at the hospital. We know one, maybe as young as four years old, that woman is listed in critical condition with a gunshot wound to the foot and deep cuts to her face. Faith Harris Green had tried to get away from her husband Gregory in the years leading up to the tragedy she was now struggling to live through.

Three years into their marriage, Faith had applied for a personal protection order against her husband, saying Gregory had threatened her, and things would get ugly if she didn't leave her home. He was belligerent, kicking things, including the couch where their newborn baby was sleeping. Her report was denied because of insufficient allegations, including the fact that police had not been called to the home within the past three months. We all know what happens when police are called to a home for domestic violence and then leave.

Faith filed for divorce later in 2013, but no action was taken after the filing, and the case was dismissed. She filed again in August of 2016, and the paperwork was delivered to Gregory the day before he decimated their entire family. Previously, there were four children living in the house on hip street in Dearborn Heights, Michigan. Chadney and Kara were teenagers. Faith's kids from a past marriage.

Koi and Kaylee were the biological children of Gregory and Faith, conceived during the course of their troubled six-year marriage. After their funeral, Faith's first husbands speak before a crowded church devastated to have four coffins behind him. I love everyone. I show you that love achieves the name powerful. You know what's the only one you know, my daughter in the dark side of the day, because you know they were in Bergs. There's more, we're going to be powerful. And there's also a situation in this.

Like many grieving from the loss, he was shocked to learn the person who killed his two teenage children had been released from prison after murdering a previous pregnant wife. It was like fate punishing you for someone else's horrible deja vu. You did nothing wrong! Nothing wrong! Nothing wrong! A happy birthday banner remained for a time on the family's outdoor car port. There had recently been a birthday party there for a four-year-old Kaylee.

It was an outdoor space where the neighbors were used to seeing the kids play. Only now, it had become a crime scene, with a golden beige Nissan sedan parked in the driveway, something they were not used to seeing. While Faith Harris screened the mother of all four children slowly recovered from the physical wounds she sustained in the attack, friends and neighbors struggled to grasp how four young lives could be taken away so suddenly. The mayor calls the event a super tragedy and the news reported that all of the first responders were visiting with counselors after seeing what

they had seen. But it wasn't until five months later that the public would learn exactly what occurred in what seemed like any other ordinary home. Gregory Greene's murder relapse is one of the most chilling examples of what can happen when our criminal justice system doesn't work the way we think it should. It seems to solidify the notion that once you're a criminal, you'll always be a criminal. But these ultra-violent attacks not only devastate the immediate family and communities they occur in, but also add fuel to fires that are sadly still burning in major cities all across the country. Society in general who maybe they personally haven't been affected by the criminal justice system and I pray and hope that they never will be, but like me, if they're sitting back thinking

that everybody who has gotten tangled up in the criminal justice system probably did something to deserve it, I was terribly wrong. I've watched how this thing works today and you can get easily tangled up in a system that just doesn't let you go. You need to be balanced and see this from both sides, I think. There are people out there that would say, oh, just let them rot. Just let them rot in jail. And I say to myself, hmm, I suppose you've never done anything wrong yourself. I just, I'm amazed at how some people can have such hard hearts. I have met people when asking for signatures who I did not realize what kind of a flashpoint the whole discussion would lead to.

And when I stopped and listened to some of the stories that people would tell me, well it turns out that they had been personally affected in a very horrifying way by crime. And so they're hurt, they're angry, they're looking for some form of justice too. And I think we all are. We don't want to say, we'll throw the justice system away and let everybody get away with everything. On the other hand, I get it, you do want to see some consequence for committing crime. And so it's a discussion. I think it's a national discussion. And I think we're

starting to see it take form, even on the streets of America today. Before Gregory Greene's plea hearing in February of 2017, many were speculating that he may try to use the insanity defense, which was also the case back in 1992. In the 1990s, the prosecutors ultimately agreed to a no contest plea, meaning Gregory was technically guilty in the eyes of the law, but he didn't actually admit to any of the guilt, kind of a dick move, if you ask me. But for his second set of murders, no priest letters assuring the judge of Gregory's good intentions would be written.

Certainly not from a puzzle, Fred Harris. Now ailing after his son-in-law and brother-in-Christ, murdered his four precious grandchildren. Hancoft and seated in a buttoned up forest green jumpsuit, Gregory visibly wept as the charges against him were read out loud. Following that, he gave a brief personal testimony as the judge attempted to pry critical details about his vicious crimes. I took a lot of K-League Green and Koi Green, Chubby and Karrar. I stuck to them. So I asked why I'm a float. You indicated you took a lot of K-League Green, Koi Green, Karrar Allen and Chubby Hill.

Is that your answer? Yes. You took a lot of energy to take your life, sir. I love Karrar. My two girls in the car. Car on outside. Okay, Karen, shot, shot down. You indicated by car on the outside, I had to do my shot.

Was that director? Yes. Later, an attorney reveals the most troubling facts that make up this horrible case. On September 21, 2016 at the location of 4431 HIP in the city of Diorborhais County of Wayne State of Michigan. Did you at that time place your daughters Kaylee and Koy Green in a motor vehicle in the garage at that street address? Yes. And at that time had you done something to that motor vehicle so that the exhaust from that motor vehicle would be rather than being pumped into the outside air, be pumped into the

interior of the car where your two daughters were. Yes. While the exact timeline of the many disgusting acts that took place that night is not exactly clear, it is clear that Gregory Green spent time planning in advance what he would do. A week before that night in September, Gregory shopped at a home depot where he purchased the piping used to modify the car's exhaust system. As toxic fumes of carbon monoxide were directed through the passenger compartment, the two toddlers slowly drifted away into a quiet death. Later, police theorized it was Gregory who placed their lifeless bodies back in their beds.

Remember Kayleigh and Koi were the babies in the family, as biological children were now ex-wife Faith. He suspected that she was cheating on him, and he was going to make her suffer in every way imaginable. Bregray attacked faith with a box cutter, deeply slashing both sides of her face before shooting her in the foot, gagging her, and binding her wrists with duct tape and zip ties in the basement of their home. As two teenage stepchildren Kara and Chadney were there too. Their limbs bound together before they were shot multiple times execution style for their mother Miss Faith Green? Yes, sir. In addition to doing that, did you also shoot Miss Green in the feet?

Yes. And did you also cut Miss Green multiple times on her face with a sharp object? Yes, sir. I believe the average length of time that a prisoner is spending behind Michigan bars in Michigan prisons is increasing and it has grown over the decades rather than the opposite, right? And from what I've heard, that isn't necessarily due to more violent crimes or more crimes,

but more changes to sentencing laws and the way we view certain crimes and how much time we assign as punishment for those crimes. Mandatory minimum sentences are something that I think has come into vogue over the years. And then the ability to actually have your case heard, you know, your sixth amendment right to a trial is vanishing. And the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers have put together a great report. It was released, I think, in 2018, which talks about

this problem. Now, I'm going to guesstimate the rate of plea deals back in the 70s. I think the numbers were maybe in the order of 20% ish. However, today, I'm pretty sure these numbers stand, you know, at the state level and the federal level, these numbers vary somewhere between 94 to 97% in the federal cases. Are they end in a plea deal? They don't go to trial. So if you think about how to trial. So if you think about how law and order criminal intent and all those shows work SUV, you always see them in a courtroom case. This show starts with a crime and ends in a courtroom. Not so. You'd have to have to watch 100 episodes before you saw three trials occur in reality. It shifts the discussion and it puts all the power really into the prosecutors seat who can choose what to charge people with, how many charges, and then what should the

negotiations be? Should we settle for a look? I'll throw these three charges out and I'll leave these other ones, but now instead of looking at 25 years, you're going to only be looking at 10 years. We're no longer talking about the facts of the case. Now we're talking about the bargaining process. The justice system has essentially morphed into the plea bargain system. Who's in charge of the plea bargains? It's not the judge. The judge is there to basically approve the deal, so to speak, once the plea bargains. It's not the judge. The judge is there to basically approve the deal.

So to speak, once the plea bargaining is done, the two parties come before the judge in the courtroom and they're asked some perfunctory questions and they answer and the deal is done. It was already decided before they walked into the courtroom. Back in the courtroom at Gregory Green's Settencing, the scars on Faith Green's face follow her jawline, extending from her ear to her chin on both sides of her face. She's exchanged her black funeral garbs for a white turtle neck, and she speaks with an elegance and confidence. You would not expect from someone who has suffered so much. I'm not happy, I'm not satisfied with the outcome.

There's no punishment that fits the crime. Not even torture and death with justice. Your justice will come when you burn a hell for all eternity, for murder and for innocent children, all because you're insecure as a man. Plus the other two lives you took. You are a con artist, you are a master, you are a devil in disguise,

you are now forever exposed. Faith goes on to honor her children. 19-year-old Chadney, who was a talented digital media artist and had dreams of becoming a Hollywood producer. 17-year-old Kara, who was in the process of filling out college applications and wanted to become an OB-GYN, five-year-old Koi who loved arts and crafts, and four-year-old Kaley who would paint her own fingernails and carry a purse filled with hand sanitizer and lip

gloss. All of them respectful, loving people who were taught by their mother to volunteer, but will never be able to share their gifts with the world. I always encourage them and told them that they can do anything they put their minds to do. Those are the lies that you took. You try to separate them from each other.

They are siblings who love each other and spend time with one another. Trying to split them up didn't work. They are together more than ever. Channie and Kaira are still watching over the little sisters, Koy and Kaylee forever. I carry each one of them in my womb for nine months and raise them. Nothing or no one's Georgetown, not you, can break me or break my mind with them.

Gregory sits with his back turned to faith during her statements and also shows little emotion when he speaks on his own behalf before sentencing is delivered. This one's saying well first, well, I'm saying that's important. I don't even judge. I do regret it, I'm sorry, it's the whole family. Says the guy who murdered his own.

Twice. While he talks about God's continued plan for him, you can hear the family and friends of the victims squirming in their seats with disgust. I have to be humble. Very humble, because God knows the heart. He knows how we grasp how sorry I am. And even now, after all this, he still has a plan. And I'm not giving that up. Give it up on that plate. This guy, this guy, this guy.

And there's not one day that I'd go by that. I don't think of my girls. God, one day I'll finish the new plan, talk to the company boss. And God pray that God be with Chattanoon care. I feel bad for how this has deeply impacted everyone. May God help them help me help us all. the judge quickly retorts, speaking with a ferocity and wisdom that Faith's father, Apostle Fred Harris, would appreciate.

In the events following his grandchildren's murder by the man he helped release, the pastor suffered a stroke. Thankfully, he has since recovered. Mr. Green, of all the tragic cases this court has seen the fact of this one are by far adorst. Brothers are supposed to protect their children. Yes. How is one supposed to protect their children? Yes. How's my supposed to protect their lives? I didn't know how I would sit here this morning and get through listening to this green testify

about what happened in this case yet. I look at you when you appear utterly on the side of everything that she said. Your actions are inconceivable, and it'd be on understanding. I hope that the family is affected by this tragedy can heal. As a practical matter, this court is confident that if I follow the Senate's agreement in this case, you will never be released from prison. Rather than decide to, if in the event I were to say, no, this isn't enough, the family would be forced

to take this to trial, and I don't want this green to ever have to endure what happened again. She already has to live with it every day. So for that reason, I'm going to follow the sun screaming. I'm convinced that you will be incarcerated for the remainder of your life. Thank you!

Obviously, the crowd can barely contain themselves as the judge goes on to formerly state that Gregory Green will serve 47 to 102 years for murdering his four children, though perhaps that is worth applauding. It seems that justice has been served this time. But one has to wonder how this could have been prevented in the first place. Gregory Green had done this before. He went to prison for it, but he also served what was considered by a team of lawyers and a judge to be a fair amount of time. The fact of the matter is, even if a parole board had not approved his release, he still served his minimum sentence.

A spokesman for the Michigan Department of Corrections said that had Gregory not won his parole in 2008, he likely would have been released from prison in 2012 because of good behavior. Still, an early release only four years later. Or if you really want to extend the logic Gregory was 25 years old when he committed his first murders. Even if he had served all 25 years of his original sentencing in 1992, he would have been released in 2017 at age 50. Hey, 50's the new 40, right? You can still have kids, plenty of time to start a new life, remarry, have a couple kids, and murder them. So the question becomes, how do we distinguish comes, how do we distinguish who is truly rehabilitated? When I was raising my children, I used to really wonder the same thing and say, you know,

do they really mean it? And I came to the conclusion finally, when somebody said, they're sorry, I have to take them on face value. Unless they demonstrate that they're really not sorry, in which case you're probably going to see that too, when we trust someone, it starts with a risk. We don't know when we trust someone if they're going to do what they said they're going to do, but as they demonstrate that they are trustworthy and they start to do the things that they said they were going to do, we established more trust. So you start from zero. The bucket is empty.

The trust bucket is empty. But as people fill that with, you know, demonstrable evidence, you start to say, okay, I can trust this person more and more and more. We just have to be involved in each other's lives a little bit more and not just look at it as an us and them type of a question. We're all part of one human race. So we all are kind of responsible for one another. Who is my brother? Well, you are.

And everybody I bump into. In October of 2018, more than a year since her husband was sentenced, faith speaks publicly for the first time through an interview with the local news about what her life has been like since her children were so unfairly taken from her. I miss them so much and it's hard to go around and you see people with their kids and then like, you know, if you have to go to the stores, like you try to hurt them past the clothes, because then it's like, oh, I would about that for them. And then it's like, even though people may say, like, oh, she's smiling, she looks okay.

But, you know, really, I'm not, you just, I don't know, I gotta go on, you know. How are you doing? I mean, we, you mentioned the short-term memory loss. Honestly, I have a lot of bad days. My depression has gotten worse. I used to believe it was commercials and when I say depression hurts, it really hurts.

There's days I cannot get up. I have to, like, kind of pep talk myself with, you know, just, it's a hard day. It's hard. This year is worse than last year. As the realities of what happened to faith slowly settle in, she had to rely on the support of people around her to help her heal. Every day is a challenge after something like this. But one day, the struggle becomes a little easier to manage. And then the next day after that, a little easier again.

And slowly, but surely, a new beginning arises from the ashes. As for Jack Wagner and the case for restructuring the way we look at the criminal justice system, there are still many hurdles ahead. Over this past summer, as coronavirus lockdowns kept the majority of citizens at home, the Michigan Prisoner Rehabilitation Credit Act failed to collect enough signatures to make it onto local ballots this November. I am again not looking necessarily to save one person. I'm looking to try and shed

light on the whole situation. There's many issues that need to be addressed. And so, Jack has committed to dedicating the next part of his life to making sure that happens. An electrical engineer, not a lawyer, not a politician, pulling his sleeves up and learning what is necessary to manage the bureaucracy of creating a nonprofit and move an important cause forward. There's a passage in the Bible that says, he who has been forgiven much loves much, and I was forgiven a lot, an awful lot. And I'll tell you, it's made me a much more compassionate person with regard to this topic. I wouldn't be here

today. Joe, trying to make the changes and see the changes come to pass if it weren't for what happened to me. So, am I a productive member of society? I don't know you tell me. So, in my productive member society, I don't know you tell me I've got a few patents to my name on a taxpayer, I raised my family and I'm trying to do right. So, it's not about me though, it really is. I think there are good people who are stuck in a prolonged situation behind bars that we could all benefit from giving them a second chance, giving them a second look. And let's talk about what we can do with the current population and what we could do to reduce this number and put people back actively into society, contributing members to society. If we're going to be rigid and tough on crime, I'm asking, can we be smart on crime?

Can we start to talk about moderating or modulating the time that they're in there? So what exact mechanisms, I think an education has to be a part of it, is it mandatory? I don't know, I don't know. It's natural to want to move the people who commit crimes far away from our society, so that they don't harm anyone else. Lock them up, throw away the key, barricade them behind tons of cement and barbed wire and prison guards and dogs. It's primal, really, to banish those who break the rules.

But regardless of your religious or political affiliations, we should also consider, again, humanity's capacity for forgiveness, grace, and mercy. It's just a matter of who's worthy of those things and who isn't. Yes, there are those people who take advantage of other people's trusting nature, but there are also those who have truly seen the error of their ways, trapped in an endless cycle, tainted by the reputation of the worst of us. There has to be a better way. Don't ask me what it is. I'm just a podcaster.

There are many of you out there that are way smarter and way more capable of answering this question. What good are we as a civilized society if we destroy the lives of people who want nothing more than a new beginning? In a world where the worst monsters are real, the cosmic laws of duality would suggest the opposite is also true. There are people worthy of redemption. Everyone's story deserves to be heard. Let's not let the fear of monsters like Gregory Green manipulate us to becoming a society free of grace and free of mercy.

The number is 9548896854. Put a plus one if you're international. Join us at sortenscale.com slash plus for all kinds of perks. And until next time, stay safe. Hey, my name's Claire and I've been a follower of yours in probably 2015. It was early in the beginning. I remember starting the podcast and there were like 25 episodes or something and I was like, oh, yes, this was, it was gonna be a follow-up a couple months and then to of course go through them and like less than a week.

But I was still 90s, got done. I absolutely love your podcast. I couldn't recommend the podcast more. I love the content that you see for these just monsters as you call them out there and can really just hear it in your voice when something specific is triggering you, bothering you, and obviously you see it off that. It's just the best story telling out there and keep it up. I'm also a plus member and I look forward to having an episode every week.

I feel like the best gift to myself. Thanks so much and I will feel the opening. Okay. 1.5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5-1,5- ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ‍ʻ� Thank you.