Sword and Scale - Episode 180

Episode Date: February 22, 2021

An unreal crime scene with a dead fortune teller, her dead daughter, and an otherworldly tone has police in Westminster, CA grasping at straws trying to solve the case. They consulted Warlocks, cult experts and were even approached by a dog psychic. They come up with nothing. That is, until they catch a break with a credit transaction… on the opposite coast. In a case that takes you from Little Saigon to rural North Carolina and leads you on a path of greed and destruction this episode will have you questioning your own fortune.“This was a horrible crime and these stories need to be told. I thank you for telling them. We can have reforms but victims cannot be forgotten because evil will still be there and these stories are cautionary tales. Their lives mattered. It mattered to all of us who worked to bring them justice. And Justice, is a lifetime commitment.”-Sonia Balleste, Chief Deputy District Attorney, Santa BarbaraSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sort and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised It's sort of like stealing lives she wanted what Jade had she wanted what a need a had she was trying to become them and she felt these people needed to die. Welcome to season 8 episode 180 of Sword and Scale a show that reveals the worst monsters are real. Boy, do we have a who-done it for ya? This one is interesting, it's got everything. Mystery, intrigue, or intrigue, as my lovely girlfriend likes to say. It's also got a supernatural aura. And you may even learn a thing or two about Vietnamese culture and history. You're in for a

treat like Chebap or a Chebap Mau or maybe even a Ban Trasan. I know I'm pronouncing all of that wrong but you get the point. So let's get started, shall we? D-N-O-O! The The human brain is amazing. Being the most developed of all life on Earth makes us the best at pattern recognition, and that ability affects every aspect of our own lives. Even though most of the time, it's a subconscious action. Pattern recognition allows us to learn to read, write, speak, or even recognize the face of a friend.

On an instinctual level, it helps us recognize and avoid danger and find food and shelter, just like any other animal. But as human beings, we also tend to find patterns in the abstract. Sometimes patterns that aren't really there. We see faces in the clouds, Harambe in a Cheeto,

and Jesus in a water stain, or a dog's butt. We find meaning in the seemingly random nature of the world. We even try to predict the future by deciphering patterns out of randomness with the help of fortune tellers and tarot. Historically, life is not easy for anyone, even people who are very privileged, very blessed, whatever. We understand that. However, it is interesting to note that in your cards, it is not that I look at your cards and say, oh my gosh, you've been through horrible tragedy more than the average person. It's not so much that, but there is this history of like disappointment and things not going exactly the way you would like them to.

And I don't know how much of that is on a tragic scale and how much of that is just, you know, shit luck in life. But there is a bunch of that. And this is why it is good that you are tenacious. Because if you keep moving forward, I think the will of luck and fortune will turn better in your direction. On April of 1975, the US Army pulled out of the Vietnam War, as the capital city of Saigon fell to the socialist People's Army of Vietnam. In the days prior, and the days and weeks following the fall of Saigon, the US military

executed several operations aimed at evacuating refugees fleeing the communist government. Operation Baby Lift evacuated over 3,300 children, and the Operation Frequent Wind rescued more than 7,000 Vietnamese. Operation New Life and New Arrivals saw these refugees processed in Guam before being transported to a few army bases across the United States, one of which was Camp Pendleton in Orange County, California. All in all, Orange County slowly assimilated thousands of Vietnamese. 30 years later, in 2005, that influx of Vietnam refugees successfully transformed a stretch of strawberry fields and salvage yards in Westminster, California into something more familiar. The area is now known as Little Saigon. Little Saigon is in Westminster, California.

It's the largest Vietnamese population outside of Saigon. As a result of that, there are often street signs in Little Saigon that are in Vietnamese businesses use signage in Vietnamese. It almost gives you the feeling of being in Vietnam, but you're in California. As a result of that, there is a large presence of cultural traditions in little Saigon. The cafes are popular, karaoke bars, all kinds of ethnic foods and things like that can be easily found in a little sagan. It's a place where people from the Vietnamese community can gather and talk and

there's a sense of real community there. This is Sonia Bayeste. My name is Sonia Bayeste. I'm a chief deputy district attorney at the Santa Barbara DA's office. A decade ago, I worked at the Orange County District Attorney's Office. The Vietnamese in Orange County brought with them to the United States the kind of determination that only comes with the suffering and adversity that they had endured. But also also they brought their culture, their food, and their superstitions. One major aspect of the Vietnamese culture is what some in the US might consider a novelty pastime.

Fortune telling to the Vietnamese is serious business, deeply rooted in their cultural history. Community members will consult fortune tellers for all sorts of reasons, like making sure their businesses are properly situated for the flow of good energy, to ward off evil spirits and haunted souls with rituals and spells, to diagnose supernatural causes of illness, establishing lucky dates for personal undertakings, and to predict the future of wealth, health, and love. In 2005, one of the most popular fortune tellers in Little Saigon was Ha Smith, who went by the name Jade.

I say, was because in April of that year she was found murdered. In the home she shared with her daughter Anita Vo. Anita's ex-boyfriend, young Tran, would visit regularly bringing coffee and snacks in an attempt to rekindle their relationship. Him and Anita had been dating for a period of time and very young love. And as such, it can be kind of volatile at times in the sense of, it wasn't a serious romance, at least it wasn't for Anita. But there was a real friendship there. So I think that in his efforts to not only lure her back,

but general friendship and caring, it would not be unusual for him to share a meal, bring over some coffee or just talk to her on a regular basis, even if they were not, quote unquote, boyfriend and girlfriend. So what happens is, young Tran goes and delivers coffee and biscuits and he leaves it in the front door area of the home. He never enters likely wanting the recognition for this kind gesture, even though no one answered the door. Young Tran left his offerings at Anita's house and went about his day. And it's not till the following day, he comes back because he still has no answer from Anita.

And then he sees that his coffee and pastries are still outside. And this is what causes him to call the police because now he believes, okay, they weren't here yesterday and they didn't eat the pastries and they didn't eat the coffeeries, and they didn't eat the coffee, and nobody brought it in or threw it out or anything. So something is wrong. That's when he called the police to do a welfare check. Young Tran found it odd

that his offering was left outside untouched. And when he noticed the dog was in the backyard barking, he couldn't shake the feeling that something was wrong. Repeated attempts to contact Anita went unanswered and now this. When the Westminster police arrived, they made a discovery that would terrify the tight knit community of Little Saigon. My name is Bill Collins. At the time of the homicide, I was working as a patrol sergeant when a call came out from a worried boy friend. The boy friend had

gone to his girlfriend's house and said they weren't answering the door. The dog was in the backyard barking and that was Not normal all the lights off in the house and there's like a red glow coming from inside the house. So it's kind of hard to see and myself and the other sergeant were peeking through the the blinds and we really can't Tell what's going on because we only have about a inch of vision through these blinds, and we can see some stuff on the ground. It looked like an altar was in the family room.

And then if you look to the right, you could see like a, it looked like an arm hanging out, like up in the air, kind of rigid. And my body is, that's a body, I got that, it's not a body body there's no way that looks like a Managed in or something that's falling on the ground or something because it's pure white So we sat there we're talking about that and then I look at more and I'm looking more and I'm like

I could tell there's stuff like on the ground that it looked like a little bit of ransacking They're like, man, maybe that is a body It looked like a little bit of ransacking. And I'm like, man, maybe that isn't body. I ended up kicking the door open, and we go in, and it's me, another sergeant, and an officer, we walk in, and we see this like a shrine. And all the lights were off, except for this red light that was in this little shrine area,

and that was kind of emanating this red glow throughout the house. You know, it was some of the stuff was knocked on the ground and looked like like there are bones there. You couldn't tell if they're human bones but they're bones on the ground. The guy was with, he went to the left, I went to the right and both sides were entered into the kitchen. So I entered the kitchen on one side, he entered the kitchen on the other side and we both came across a body. What they first thought to be a mannequin was actually the stark white body of a woman. But what they couldn't see from their vantage point through the blinds was the other body, the woman's daughter, just a few feet away.

And half of her body was hanging into the walkways. Half of her body was in the kitchen, and the other half was hanging out into the walkway. My partner, who went around, found another body in the kitchen. I can't remember how far apart made five to ten feet apart. Both just covered in white paint. I remember just the way one of the bodies almost looked like it was positioned. There on all fours, kind of like in a praying position. And one of her females, her hand was up in the air with one of her fingers pointing up.

In the home dimly lit with a faint red light, they discovered two bodies amongst scattered ash, bones and belongings. With such an unusual crime scene, even for these seasoned veterans, they didn't know what was waiting for them in the rest of the house. If this thing was, it almost got to the point where I'm like, okay, what else are we going to find in this house? Is it going to be like a tripwire or something? Who knows what's going to happen next? So every room we went into, we just were like, okay, what are we going to find in this room?

Fortunately, the rooms were ransacked, but we did not find any more dead bodies. Officers found the body of Jade Smith lying in her kitchen face down, collapsed where she was attacked. Her body appeared positioned into sort of a yoga pose with her knees tucked under her body and her arms stretched straight out. The middle finger of one hand was extended. Her head and hands were doused in white paint covering her defensive wounds. The way her hair was laying mostly on one side of her head looked like she had been scouped. Her long and illustrious career as a fortune teller had come to an end. Officers backed out of the home and waited for the forensic's team to arrive.

Ha came from Vietnam and she was a self-made woman in the United States. She had adopted the name of Jade Smith after she had married and ultimately divorced. Jade Smith was known in the community as a very respected fortune teller. When I say respected is because Ha was consulted or Jade was consulted about all kinds of aspects of daily life that are important in the Vietnamese community. Business deals, store locations, types of businesses, whether they should go into it or not, where it should be located, how much capital should be invested? How much should be borrowed? There was also matters of just general reading palms and wanting to know what's in your future.

There was also matters of the heart of spells that she would, uh, study come up with and ultimately deliver to those who paid for her services. Jade was more or less renowned in certain circles, and especially in the Vietnamese community, a reputation of being highly respected preceded her. She was highly sought after and had quite the clientele, and she basically could pick and choose whether she wanted to work for a client or not. Her exclusivity was evident in the way she presented herself.

She just exudes opulence. If the best way I can describe her, very classic but very opulent, elegant lady. In addition to reputation and respect, there was also a substantial amount of money that came along with her success. She drove a Mercedes and had an affinity for designer clothing, accessories and expensive jewelry. She was also an attractive woman with beautiful skin and hair. And she had a beautiful daughter named Anita. Her daughter Anita was equally lovely in terms of her good looks, well manners. But Anita's ambitions different than her mother. She chose a more traditional

if you would Americanized approach to study hard. She did well in school. It was her goal to become a lawyer at some point and she was in her undergraduate studies trying to achieve those goals. Anita is very much the typical Vietnamese-American teenager doing well at school, getting a good education and dating a bit in the hopes of having a career down the line. When the forensics team arrived, they went back into the home to do a proper analysis of the crime scene.

Anita's body was found lying in the hall, based up. Her head was covered first with a t-shirt and then quartz of white paint. The t-shirt had adhered to her face as the paint dried. You could only see the basic outline of a young woman's features, giving her an almost ethereal aura of

a mannequin in distress. Both Anita and her mother Jade suffered many stab wounds to the neck, head, and chest, even being stabbed in the hands as they tried to defend themselves. The rest of the home was equally unsettling, especially to the non-Vietnamese officers unfamiliar with the fortune-telling culture. To get a first-hand account of the scene that night, we reached out to Timothy Vu. Back in 2005, when the incident occurred, I was the homicide detective, uh, employed at the Westminster Police Department in the City of Westminster, California.

It was well past dusk when Bill Collins and his partner discovered the bodies of Jade and Anita. Timothy Vu was already at home when he got the call to investigate the scene. The home itself, as you enter into the home, you enter into the living room. And in the living room, you see a large cabinet display where there's a lot of different Asian DAT statues that are displayed in this armor type of setting. And that made for a very unusual crime scene for us. Because J. Smith was a fortune teller,

there were certain things in her home that were a little bit unusual. There were also some family ashes that had also been scattered about with some bones that appear eerie and supernatural and maybe witchcrafty kind of stuff. On top of the witchcrafty stuff, there was also a strange feeling in the air that night. Somehow someway the moon was weird that night and in the crime scene photos one can see a very eerie lighting coming into this myth home. Some of the pictures almost look like a ghost is over the house. In front of the home there's an image of what appears to be, I guess a lot of better words smoke or something to that effect. We couldn't

really explain why that was in an image. The spooky nature of the scene immediately gave the Westminster Police Department a peculiar theory as to what happened in the Smith home. Soon, however, a state of the home and the history of the burglary is in the area gave the department a more common sense theory. We thought it might be some kind of ritualistic killing when we saw the bones and the altar and the white paint. We thought it might be some kind of demonic ritual or something.

I happen to come across an investigator who happened to be himself a warlock. And as I was showing him photos of the crime scene to try to get a perspective on possibly if this was an occult killing or something like that, or which crime. What really threw me off initially was the pain. Having not been for the pain, I would have worked off the theory of a robbery on wrong or something that effect, but the pain, which was a very unique signature

in the homicide scene, really threw it off for me. And so I was trying to go off the theory, do I have a cult killing? Do I have a serial killing in the paint? Is it a signature? Is this a cultural type of thing? Maybe for those that are in the business of fortune telling, voodoo witchcraft type of stuff, or do I have a situation where I have a double homicide and suspects are trying to basically destroy DNA evidence by point of paint on. At that point in the investigation, they were all strong theories,

but Jade had been robbed before. Jade Smith had been the victim of a home invasion robbery some years prior, where she was tied up and robbed in her home. So we also had to entertain that maybe even the same perpetrators had come back. To rob her again, home invasion robberies are very common in that community, and they were at that time. The reason for that is because Vietnamese community of the old country doesn't really have a lot of trust for banks. Again, these are folks that had money in the banks. The communists came over, seized their assets, and they lost everything.

People in the community understand that this is a cultural custom, so what they do is they rob people at home. She was already victimized from them before, the initial theories that they could have come back and do it again because they got some money from her previously, but we were able to rule them out because they were in custody. The robbery gone wrong angle was a strong theory considering the history of home invasion robberies within the Vietnamese community. Why not just keep your money in the bank? I guess hard learned lessons also die hard. A final theory was that a disgruntled client could have committed these murders. Because initially there was no sense that they had any enemies or a need of, obviously, in any time when

I'm investigating homicide, my initial thought is to look at people that are closest, boyfriends, score in lovers, those type of things. So we started investigating those avenues first. And as we ruled those potential theories out, we started focusing more on house-miss business as to possible motives to the killing. The further the scene was processed, the more this third theory of a dissatisfied client gained traction. First and foremost, while there was a sign of a struggle, there was no sign of forced

entry, lending to the theory that the victims knew their attacker. The other thing that supported the angry client theory and damaged the home invader theory was the fact that not much was actually taken, at least in terms of valuables. There was Mr. Police Department knowing the social customs of the Vietnamese community and the possibility of home invasion robberies had become pretty savvy in looking for goods and valuables in unusual places. There was a stash of jewelry that was in the, basically, in the coffee maker, which is where you basically put the coffee grind.

She has stashed a lot of jewelry. We later had to estimate almost about a half a million dollars with a jewelry inside that coffee maker. Dr. Carperner found about, I believe, access of $60,000 in $100 bills neatly wrapped inside the canister of the vacuum cleaner. If the murders were committed by a home invader intent on robbery, they sure left a lot of loot behind. There were two dead bodies veiled in white paint, perhaps, as a cultural message, or just simply a way of destroying evidence, the house was ransacked, but nothing was really taken other than some miscellaneous items of moderate value and some soon

to be canceled credit cards. The murder was evident, but the motive was elusive. By way of forensic evidence, there were several big clues. There were two bloody knives that were discovered. Underneath, a pile of clothing inside of a bag of a plastic bag. It looked like the knives were put in the plastic bag to be disposed of, but in the ransacking, all of these other things had piled on top of the bag containing the knives, and they were, we believe, accidentally left behind. So the knives were examined for DNA, and there was foreign DNA, as well as DNA belonging to the victims. So we knew that those were

probably the murder weapons. However, the DNA that was not the victims, all we knew was it was like identifiable profile, but we didn't have a match. In other words, it was not known to anyone in the system. In terms of other forensic evidence, we found what appeared to be a bath mat with an imprint of a foot. And that was treated with chemicals for the presence of blood.

And the outline of the foot had traces of blood belonging to one of the victims. The investigation was seemingly an a bit of a dead end. The only forensic evidence was DNA without a match and a small footprint in a bath mat. But like the DNA, the footprint was useless unless they had a suspect to compare it to. There was however one more detail to be discovered. This info came from the next-door neighbor who claimed to have seen a man and a woman, whom they didn't recognize, go in and out of the house several times. This stuck in the neighbor's mind because of the strange way the couple

went in and out of the home. They were using a barely open garage door. Definitely suspicious. It was basically kind of partially closed away kind of underneath the garage door to come out underneath. So initially only on the in the investigation, the neighbors saw basically this couple that was in front of the victim's location. And basically what you are surmising at the time that the neighbors saw this couple, it was after the homicide and it was basically as they're leaving the location. Who would expect a fortune teller to have so many potential job hazards? The more successful she became, the harder she worked, the more of a target she'd become for robbery. But with Jade's savings found, intact, hidden within the home, the angry client theory

was starting to look pretty good, especially with the information that there were two unknown suspects coming in and out of the house that day. The bodies of prominent Vietnamese fortune teller Jade Smith and her daughter Anita were discovered inside their locked home. Both of their hands and heads were covered in white paint. One of J.A.'s hands was staged, and her middle finger was extended, a personal touch by the murderer. Perhaps a last fuck you from an angry former client. The house was ransacked.

Contrary to first thought, there were actually a lot of suspects to consider that would want a fortune teller dead. The mystery of the white paint lent to the idea that it may have been a ritualistic killing rooted in a culture many on the force didn't understand, but that theory was short-lived. Then, there was the possibility that home invaders may have targeted her for her wealth, and the murders were an unfortunate byproduct. But there were still hundreds of thousands worth of cash and jewelry left behind. If this was a robbery, it was a bad one.

Finally, there was the idea that a disgruntled client could have committed the murders. Perhaps they didn't like their fortune. Jade Smith was extremely well known and held in high regard. Bottom line, she had a lot of clients that paid a premium for her experience and ability. Maybe one of them was less than satisfied. Without concrete evidence, the Westminster police were grasping its straws. Investigators poured over notes and reports trying to find a lead to go on while they waited on something of a long shot to come through.

The only real hope they had of solving this case was to not cancel the stolen credit cards and hope the killer not only kept them, but used them. They defied typical protocol, hoping it would net them the killer. It was a bit of a reach, but it was their only shot. Luckily, it paid off. The credit cards, we started tracking those, and what I mean by that is working with the credit card companies and credit card companies come on their own investigators. We explained to them what was going on. Unfortunately, one particular company was really helpful in the investigation. So what we found was that a week after the homicide, someone was using Hodgesmith's credit cards

at some of the business within Orange County. So I started tracking the credit card usage. And initially they were small usage. The first usage was at TGIF. And I think it was in Costa Mesa. Then another purchase at a local Ross and Target store. And then the purchase has increasingly got larger in pricing. So I suspected that the suspects were you know testing these credit cards

on first and as you know they were successful in making these transactions these sales, the purchases got increasingly larger. The surveillance video from a fries electronic in Anaheim IC, an image of a female Asian, she doesn't look like what you would envision as this murder suspect. She looks like an average, you know, typical, middle-aged woman. At the very least the time was was i didn't know whether or not where the people using these credit card directly tied to the murder of the both of the victims

or were they basically given it by someone else and now they were just more uh... you know the financial crime aspect of this investigation but regardless i needed to find them to figure out how they came into possession the credit card. So I started focusing on that. The Westminster PD focused on the credit cards because it was their only solid lead. A week after the purchases in Southern California, they got a break in the case. And then about a week later, the credit card usage started popping up in Georgia

when I was able to get the image of the bank transaction Georgia if the image of the same woman. There one and only lead took them to the East Coast where more than just bank transactions were being made with the dead woman's credit card. The card had also been used to open a PO box to which the credit card cards billing address was changed.

There were also more test transactions made at a store in North Carolina. They were seemingly on the right track. The reason this case was solved in my opinion is because the Westminster Police department had the wisdom to understand that dating have any other clues to go on and that this may be the lifeline into solving this case but it wasn't quite that simple the credit card company was saying we have to shut these credit cards down because

we're taking a loss because they're trying to hold the members are dead so they want to shut the credit card down and that's all they look if you shut this down I run out of leaves I got no more leads on this homicide I need you guys to keep it open you know I'm looking at double homicide and the investigators say well you know if you guys cover the losses on this we'll keep it open so detective Voo went to his chief to ask for money I remember my chief chief goes, yeah, I'll pay up to it. I think it was like two or 500 bucks. And I'm thinking of my stuff.

I didn't want to be disrespectful. I'm like, they're spending thousands of dollars. And it's not going to cover this thing. So I had to go back to the credit card investigator and say, look, my chief is only going to cover for the extra amount of dollar, which was not going to cover the purchases. He says, look, I kind of caused a lot.

I said, well, why don't you do this then just do me a favor put a little bit credit cards please don't shut these cards down at least just let your banks or your your your your accounts know just to call the locals and have these people stop or detain and I'll fly out. The Westminster police were hesitant to claim success when the credit cards emerged on the opposite coast. They needed to make sure it wasn't just an identity thief, but also a killer. It seemed unlikely that the person who left the crime scene, the void of evidence, would be dumb enough to use stolen credit cards.

So they waited and they watched. And fortunately, on a dumb luck for us. The investigator got busy on another case and wasn't following my Decredicard's every day. So he calls me back about, I think, three or four days later, he goes, hey, Tim, they purchased five airline tickets flying from... I think it was probably North Carolina with the labor in Atlanta, Georgia, into Orange County

over Memorial Weekend, which would have been about 30 days after our homicide. uh... ralina i think it was right about the line of the labor of the larger uh... into orange count over memorial weekend which would have been about thirty is after homicide and i told them i go hey whatever you do please don't reach re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re re please allow it to go through and he goes, okay, so he did as a big favor and then we checked the transaction. Two of the five tickets were under the same names of Hosmith and Anita Vo. The police were on the right track and now knew a time and a place to find the suspects. You know, I got approval from my boss just to do this three day surveillance,

24 hour surveillance on these five individuals. I got the US Marshall involved and we basically sent a team of investigators, I had three investigators that flew back with our five group of suspects into Inbound Orange County. They flew over to Atlanta, Georgia and boarded the connecting flight of the person traveling under the name Jade Smith. What they saw didn't quite fit their idea of someone capable of the murder they were investigating. So the police department decided to track down whoever was flying under the name of Jade

Smith in a need of vote. When they got to the airport, they realized that it was Tanya Nelson, her oldest daughter, traveling under the name of Anita Vaux, Tanya Nelson traveling under the name of Jade Smith, and then her younger children also with her. Officers discovered the woman traveling under the name Jade Smith was actually She discovered the woman traveling under the name Jade Smith was actually, Tanya Nelson. She didn't seem like a cold-blooded killer. I mean, she was traveling with her four children, and we're talking about an unassuming woman. How could she have killed two women, even with help it seemed unlikely? She was using the card and she did own the store in North

Carolina that ran the test transactions and the man who opened the PO box was a friend of hers, but that didn't mean she killed Jade and Anita, so the police continued to wait and watch. When she landed in Orange County, she went on a shopping spree at South Coast Plaza, went to Versace, and poured your money, some other places. She bought this, she bought this chattaroos ugly purse, no offense to Versace, but it had to be the ugliest item in the store. Look like it was like a little girl's Halloween costume purse.

Having bad taste does not make you a killer, but going on a shopping spree with a dead woman's credit card in the amount of thousands of dollars does make you at least a thief and a fraud. All during their shopping spree they were being surveilled by police on the ground and the US marshals from the air. And when it landed in Orange County we had our surveillance team ready. We also had an air assay which an airplane from Houston from the US marshall as our basically our air support.

I could hear the plane to circling above us and i i felt like i think we're gonna blow our surveillance so i had a call the airship off and said you guys you know we thank you but no thank you i think it was about day two and i realize okay we're not going to get any more benefit out of fond and so we decided to go ahead and make the arrest of peace this group of people for all the fraud that they were involved in at the time.

We've recovered a full-telter stolen property that belonged to our victims, suitcases, luggage, Louis Vuitton luggage. And in Kanye's possession was actually the ID and credit card belonging to Hodgay Smith. Once Tanya Nelson was in custody, officers hoped they would finally get some insight into the case. But Tanya had little to say to police. My strategy going in was if she wasn't my first pick and she's only involved in a fraud, I needed to get her to tell me where she got these credit cards from. How did she come in possession so I can go after those suspects and if they're not that the murder suspect himself lead me to whoever was at the crime scene you know i'm in a bit of the murder suspect before

gang members people killed the mom and uh... you know so i think she was in my first murder suspect of the interview uh... but she was probably far the most uh... cold i guess is that unaffected i guess it's about unaffected

suspect you know you would think that if she was just a mother travel for each of her children of being arrested by law enforcement in another state that she would quickly say hey you know i don't know anything by the murders but you know credit card you know i got it from whoever when i told her this is what we were investigating after she was i was getting nowhere

on the front and finally said it would besting homicide you know and getting her the opportunity to come forward and come clean with where she got the credit card and her not giving up any information it was clear to me at that point that she was directly involved in the homicide to what extent I don't know? Tanya clammed up. She wasn't saying anything of use to detectives.

So detective Vue changed a strategy and brought in Tanya's husband. She clammed up in the sense that she would talk about anything of consequences, meaning anything related remotely to the crime itself or the frauds of, she would, she would politely answer some general questions. Even at one point we would have her husband in the same room with her and we showed the crime scene photo and we clearly got a reaction from him. They're both parents, they got kids, he saw the photo, he became emotional and he had what you would expect from a normal person that he saw the photo, he became emotional and he had what you would expect from a normal person that sees a disturbing photo, he had an emotional reaction to it,

she had no reaction to it whatsoever. I'm across the table from her and at him at this point because what I was trying to do is really get a response from her, from him. So I got an emotional response from him, but she would lean over, she put her arms around her to kind of show them. And then just kind of it's kind of like almost like a motherly type of thing like, it's going to be okay thing. It was the most bizarre scene I've seen, but it was just it clearly showed me that she was the dominant person in that relationship. The interrogation of Tanya Nelson wasn't going anywhere.

So the officers looked into her past, searching for a connection to Jade and Anita. Tanya Nelson came from a rather large Vietnamese family. She was a Vietnamese immigrant into the States, hardworking family. They had to come to the States and basically start over. So there was some quite a bit of hardship from childhood to adulthood. She struggled. But she was smart. She developed into a shrewd business woman. She owned her own businesses.

Tanya had overcome immigrating to the US as a child, virtually penniless, and built a life where she was a business owner. But by the time she was arrested in 2005, her life had recently taken a turn for the worse. In 2000, she and her husband filed for bankruptcy after racking up more than $200,000 in credit card and personal loan debt. At some point, her misfortune also affected her love life. Her husband had a younger brother who she met on trips back to Vietnam. And when that younger brother becomes more of a young man, she seduces him. They start an affair.

She eventually convinces her husband, his brother, to sponsor him to come to the United States. So she has now her brother-in-law slash lover and her husband living in the same house. You heard that right. Tanya was having an affair with her husband's younger brother while they were all living under the same roof. Weird how this is around the time, cuckolding videos became popular. But just wait, Tanya's life gets even crazier. And she continues the affair.

And I think as he becomes more acclimated to the United States and matures and kind of grows up a little bit, he kind of thinks I need to get away from this relationship. She's married to my brother. And this may not be what I want. So he decides to move to North Carolina to, in essence, get away from her. And she follows and she just tells her husband that she's going to move to North Carolina and open a shop there and she and the children will come visit and he can visit her and they don't need to divorce. She then convinces her brother-in-law lover to move in with her. So she lures him back, they buy a house together and he I think ultimately decided this is not a good idea, This is never going to work.

So he breaks up with her. And now, once again, moves to get away from her to the state of Georgia. This time, he really means it. He does not go back to Tanya. He does not want any business relationship with her. He gets bought out of the house and he starts to date someone else. The relationship blossoms into a marriage and this is completely unacceptable to Tanya Nelson. Tanya moved her life and her business across the country to chase her young lover, but

when she gets there, it doesn't water anymore. This doesn't explain her connections to Jade Smith, but the fact that Tanya seemingly didn't make a single decision without consulting Jade made Tanya a loyal client. There were early on love spells cast, and so when Tanya followed Lloyd into North Carolina and Lloyd then bought the house with her she thought see it worked the love spell worked because he left and he came back to me so she thought if it happened once it'll happen again she even flies Haasmith to put a spell on their house so that they will not be happy and that they won't get married. And it doesn't work.

He gets married and bites a house with his new wife. And Tanya Nelson is not going to allow this. She even takes her oldest son one day to Lloyd's house with a gun. And she knocks in the door. He tells her to go away. His girlfriend or wife to be is there and she orders her son to shoot him. And she's yelling at her son. Shoot him, shoot him and he just can't do that. And so she takes the gun from his hands, from her son's hands, and pistol whips, Lloyd, then runs away.

A short time later, after that, she drives to Georgia when they knew they would be out of town because she was in essence stalking her and stalking him. And she goes in the house and she rides obscenities all over the walls, and then she opens the faucets and lets the house get flooded, causing thousands of dollars of damages, and just fantasizes their whole home. Tanya was determined to have her life go how she wanted it to. She would do anything to influence her surroundings to create a desirable outcome. She had jade cast love spells and curses, first to win her lover back and then to punish him

and his new wife. So, Haasmith being a good foreshad teller. She did wish she could, but after a while, she realized that this is not gonna end well, and Tanya just needs to let it go. By this point, Tanya has paid her thousands of dollars and she wants to get her money's worth. So I think when she flew over and did the spell, how kind of said, look, I'll do this, but that's it. I'm not coming back here. I'm not doing that.

So, Haasmith had refused thereafter any other requests, which there were, from Tanya to continue to make things happen between her and her brother-in-law. And Haasmith just basically said, no, not doing it. It's not gonna work and you need-in-law. And Hoss Smith just basically said, no, not doing it, it's not gonna work, and you need to let it go. And you don't say no to Tonya Nelson.

By the time she was arrested, she had moved across the country for a man that didn't want her. In addition, she moved her business intimate moments, a marital aid business, if you know what I mean. To move this sex toy business from California to the conservative North Carolina area, and opened a shop next to a church. Understandably, her business wasn't doing that well, and her love life was failing also. On top of that, she was facing criminal charges

in the state of Georgia for the vandalism of her ex-lovers home. Her life was crumbling apart and she didn't blame her own decisions. She blamed her fortune teller for being unwilling to help. Police now had a motive, but they needed more to connect to the murders. So they sent investigators to her home and business in North Carolina. The Westminster Police sent Cameron Nower Hayes along with another detective across the country and hopes of closing this case. My name's Cameron Nauro. It is 2005. I was a detective working robbery homicide in the detective division at the Westman's

for police department. Rural North Carolina was a bit different than what the investigators were used to in Southern California. Little different than Orange County. We usually have a crime lab and a CSI team and stuff like that available that here was really just us. Yeah, I remember just being a, a very modest home in a residential area that was very quiet. Nothing stood out to me. We got into the house and house was kind of messy from what I remember and it was hot and humid.

House is kind of messy from what I remember and it was hot and humid, but we went through every square inch of the house for several hours looking for for anything that connected the SNL into California and the case. Per their standard operating procedure, they wanted to fingerprint the house, but the local forensic investigators couldn't be there until the following day, so they had to do it themselves. And my partner and I ended up fingerprinting like the entire house, and it looked like we just came out of a chimney by the time we were done, because we had fingerprint powder all over us and we're sweating them. It was, it was interesting.

During the search, they did find something incriminating. Throughout the course of the search, we came across jewelry that we suspected maybe tied to our victim in Orange County. We came across and leave the ton bags, which we know our victim had to leave the ton bags and we suspected some were taken. The jewelry and the bags would later be confirmed as the ones that were missing from Jade Smith's home.

Unrelated to their investigation, they found something just a sinister. We came across some type of a ransom note that looked like it was part of some type of a kidnapping and a ski mask. And I remember there being a gun case. It was almost like a kidnapping kit. There was a ransom note in there that mentioned cutting off somebody's finger, which just started to make things even stranger. Like, what else are we investigating here?

What else are we going to find? Was she planning another crime against her ex-lover and his new wife? It's unclear, but perhaps the most damning evidence was in a small day planner found in Tanya's home. As the search went on, we located a small calendar, and we're going through the calendar and on the date of our homicide,

it was, you know, circle, they're highlighted in some fashion, and it's a horrible sin. And I remember looking at my partner just going, oh, this is, we're really onto something here. And then we located some airline tickets also. This was back when airline tickets were still paper printouts and not on your phone. So there was a wealth of information on them. They put Tanya in Orange County at the time of the murder, but it also revealed something passes. Could this be a possible accomplice? The neighbor did say they saw a man and a woman at the house that day.

Once they realized he lived nearby, they prepared to go and interview him. First, they did recon only to find that he was rather unremarkable. He had no rap sheet. He lived in a sleepy neighborhood. he had a wife and kids. He wasn't a usual suspect for murder. I'm talking to my partner, and you know, it's just right off the bat. Tell him we're from Orange County, California, and let's just see how his

his body language changes. Some more answer to the door. We introduced ourselves and immediately told them we were from Westminster and Orange County, California. And sort of this like solemn kind of glazed over look. You just stood there and was like, okay, it wasn't even like, why are you guys here? Why are you here for all life in California? It was almost like he knew. Philippe Zamora agreed to accompany the detectives down to the local police station for a casual

interview. I knew he was scared, I knew he was anxious by just his body language and demeanor. So our strategy was just to build a rapport with them at first. They conducted a friendly interview in the employee break room with the door open. Zimora wasn't under arrest and they wanted him to feel comfortable so they could keep him talking. You know, why'd you come to Orange County? He obviously knew he was there.

So he was like, oh, I went there to visit friends. So he'd give us a little and then we'd ask a little bit more. What did you do? Well, we met up with some friends and we went to dinner. Okay, you remember where you ate for dinner and none? And I remember and then we kind of slowly ramped it up a little bit more and told him some more details to let him know that he knew more than he thought.

And that's where the interview kind of took a turn. We were wearing him out physically and mentally. Well, the questions were getting tougher. And his response is he was doing a lot more searching. And he got to the point where he was literally kind of just rocking back and forth and kind of looking down something that was really bothering him. And he started to mumble something that's effective. You know, she made me do it or something of that effect. And we at that point continued to now go, okay, what are you talking about here?

And that's when he started to really open up about being at the crime scene. Like a child, he couldn't make eye contact when faced with the wrong he had done. Finally, the weight of his secret was lifted off his shoulders as he spilled forth as much as he could remember about the murders and robbery. He described, you know, by even motioning his arms, how he stabbed Jake Smith and we knew based on that description, I had already known where the victim was stabbed, so that was consistent. We were getting more and more of a puzzle put together. You know, this went from a casual interview to, oh my god, this guy just implicated himself. While this was a major break in solving the case,

they still had one problem. I think Cameron, I've got with Cameron Allen, called me and said, you're not going to believe this. He just confessed to the murder. And here's where the challenge was, he leaves a more confessed to a murder in another stay. another state legally they didn't have any violation of the law in both Carolina by which to detain them for any length of time so i was in a rush now to basically get a arrest warrant into the system so that they have the legal fory to hold them

and arrest them in North Carolina. It was probably the quickest arrest warrant I've ever put together in my life. I had a drive down to the charges house real quick, present the case in the affidavit to the magistrate. Fortunately, the magistrate was helpful, signed the warrant, and then there's a quick drive right over to warrant repository because we were getting up on the six-hour detention time that he was in a walk out of the police station there and literally walked into the warrant repository stood over the shoulder of the

guy that was that was typing in the warrant and the moment he hit the enter button you know I called our investigators over there to pull the warrant after a long and slow investigation it was a race against time to actually be able to arrest Zamora even though he admitted to the murder. But this still didn't explain what his connections to Tanya and Jade Smith were, or what really happened that day. Jade Smith and Anita Vaux were dead, brutally stabbed to death in what seemed, at first, like a botched robbery. The only real lead was the stolen credit cards that the Westminster PD luckily were able

to keep open long enough to track down suspects. The use of these cards led them to Tanya Nelson, and an accomplice by the name of Philippe Zamora. Before the plane ticket with his name on it was found in Tanya's home, his name had never even come up in the investigation. The connections Zamora had with Tanya was, well, let Mrs. B. Estey explain. According to Philippe Samora, and that's a big according to Cascaviat, because he is a participant in these murders.

According to Samora, he was good friends with Miss Nelson because she was his wife's quote unquote best friend. And they consulted with Tanya and used Tanya to give them guidance when it came to financial decisions, apparently life insurance policies, things of that nature, and they trusted and relied on Tanya. Why would they trust a woman with a failing business and a personal life in ruins for financial decisions? It's beyond me, but Mrs. Beiesta has a good point. Tanya was a domineering woman that took control of their relationship.

In a lot of the men that we interviewed during the course of this investigation, the theme that I had from all of these men that I have a chance to interview, they all come across as being passive. It was apparent that she was the dominating personality in those friendships or those relationships. According to Samora, they had a very subservient relationship.

Tanya Nelson would boss him and his wife around and they would do what she said. Tanya Nelson is definitely the dominant personality. There's no question about that. I do think that he could have been afraid of her as well. He was a very weak and sort of tender individual when you talk to him. Okay, so Tanya knows a woman with a husband that she both bosses around and somehow she convinces him to travel to California with her in a plot to murder Jade Smith.

I think it's important to understand that Tanya appeared to pick men in her life who were kind of weak, kind of more on the shy side, not particularly domineering. That's evident in her first marriage, is evident in her second marriage. Tanya had asked him to go with her to Orange County so that she could go see Jade Smith, who would, to Mr. Samora, his knowledge was Tanya's fortune teller. Well at first she just asked him to go and he doesn't want to go. He doesn't really feel like he has a reason to go. But Tanya knows that Philepsa Mora is either secretly homosexual or at least bisexual.

So she uses that lure to tell Philippe Samura, if you come with me to Orange County to go see Haasmith, I will arrange it so that you can have homosexual sex with men. So that is enough to now lure Samora to want to go with Nelson, to Orange County to go see Haasmith because there's something in it for him. Tanya convinces Samora to go to Orange County

with her under the promise that she'll get him laid. I'm guessing he didn't take a lot of convincing. As Zamora continues to spill the proverbial beans, he walks the police through the events of that day. According to Zamora on the 21st, they had already met up the day before and had lunch and this was supposed to be the day where Ha was going to do some kind of reading for Tanya and so Tanya uses that to go into the office with Ha and She knows that Anita knows that the two of them

Meaning Tanya Nelson and Philippe Samora are visiting with Ha Smith So she asked Ha to call Anita Over so she could say she Tanya could say goodbye to her Tanya was a loyal client of jades for years She didn't think twice about calling her daughter home to visit with a long time friend. So once Anita gets home, then they make the excuse of opening a bottle of champagne to toss the good fortune to be. I'm learning the kitchen and you know, she says, grab a knife and you know the daughter comes running down the hallway. He admits to

stabbing Jade Smith and then basically as a witness to Nelson stabbing a needle bow right when she enters the kitchen and it wasn't really until he was in the kitchen with the victims and Tommy Nelson that the murder unfolds and he now is like an active participant. And he makes it sound like she made him do it, but he was never really able to explain like how did she make you do it, you know, what did she have hanging over your head? The attack didn't kill them instantly, but the wounds were severe and numerous, and they died in mere minutes. Amidst Zamora's confession to murder, the strangest thing he claimed was that he didn't know of Tanya's plan until it was already underway. According to Zamora, he says he doesn't know anything about to go down until Anita is screaming and Tanya is commanding him to kill

Jade Smith and he does as he's told Imagine being an unwitting accomplice to a murder plot would you just join in like a teenager suffering from peer pressure? I doubt it, but Zamora did He panicked when Tanya attacked Anita and Jade started screaming. And he did what he was told. He shut Jade up. I mean, the plan was already underway, and he didn't want to get caught, so joining in was the logical thing to do, right? And it's at that point that once both of them are dead, the Tanya then commands him to kill the dog and believes Samora refuses to kill the

dog. As he said in trial, quote unquote, I am not a murder. What kind of person kills a dog? Only a monster would kill a dog. The people, people are fair game. Ah, Zamora, what a stand-up guy you are. And then they start the clean up and ransacking. Well, they went to Waldmarr and got some paint. And white paint is the cheapest, so that's what they bought. And they went back to the house and poured the paint on the bodies. Anita was face up in Zamora, couldn't bear to have her staring back at him.

So he covered her face with a t-shirt, and poured paint over the head and hands of Anita and Jade. The details he was sharing with investigators were adding up with the little evidence they found at the scene. Foreign DNA on at least one of the knives belonged to Philip Samora. I do not believe that there was DNA that belonged to Tanya Nelson on the knives. And there's a reason for that. He says that Tanya's washed her knife as she was wearing gloves. Samora on the other hand was not wearing gloves. And so when he used knives to kill Jade,

those are the knives that we believe were found in the bag. Tanya took care of herself, not him. Unlike Samora's DNA, which is found on the back. Tanya took care of herself, not him. Unlike Samora's DNA, which is found on the knives that he used, and through other places, it's not considering that they were both ransacking the house, forget even the murders, but ransacking the house, that Tanya did not leave the amount of DNA that Philips Amore did. There is some cooperation to the fact that she might have been wearing gloves. In addition to that she was particularly meticulous about covering her own tracks in terms of washing allegedly washing the knife and we know she took a shower. So someone who is

taking a shower and washing knives is probably the kind of person who would wear gloves. Remember the footprint in the bath mat? You may have had a mental image of a shoe print but no this was the print of a bare foot and a small one at that. Tanya took a shower after the murders. Maybe it was part of her master plan and meticulous nature, or maybe she just couldn't leave the house covered in blood. Ultimately, that footprint was matched to Tanya Nelson. Yes, it's a footprint of her foot stepping on a bath mat with water and a need of o's blood.

Zamora confessed his unwilling participation in the murders of Jade Smith and Anita Vo and was able to tie Tanya to the crime scene. But his last minute participation didn't give him any understanding as to why. The only person that she put any trust in was Haas Smith and she failed betrayed. Tanya Nelson killed because she chose to blame the fortune teller for all of the bad decisions that she had made in her life. She blamed her for her love life, failure, she blamed

her for her business failure, she blamed her for her economical failures, and that everything that had gone bad in Tanya Nelson's life was as a result of her reliance on Haasmith. And that's why she killed her, and that's why she killed her daughter, and that's why she used her Louis Vuitton bags and used her name because she was green with envy about what everyone else had, that she felt was owed to her, and she saw Ha Hasmith as a person who had taken that happiness and success from her. But why kill Anita Vo? Wasn't she innocent in all of this? She couldn't afford to have Anita who knew her and knew that she was visiting survive. So that could not happen.

But I think ultimately she really wanted to hurt Jade Smith and there's nothing more awful than for a parent to have their child hurt if not killed in front of them. How Jade Smith is basically fighting for life and being killed by Philippe Samoran Kitchen. She may be witnessing the murder of her daughter just feats away from her in the joining hallway. And so, you know, and that's really the last image that Hodgis Smith would have of her life and her daughter's life.

That's a part that's so sad. She had these two women, relatively young, and their lives were cut short, you know? So this was not a circumstance where she was simply gonna leave no witness, because if you're gonna leave no witness, you know, you wouldn't attack Anita first for Jade to hear and know that her only child is being

murdered, feet away from her, and she's helpless. So I believe that that was done by design by Tanya Nelson to obtain the ultimate revenge. She was actually quite a diabolical character. With her act of ultimate revenge complete, Tanya felt untouchable. She did it, and it looked like she was going to get away with it, too. Her confidence was her downfall. Tanya was overconfident, and she thought at the time of the murder so that she was going to end up a rich woman. She was going to get the loot wherever it was.

She was going to be able to get her revenge and never have to use a credit card. I don't think the credit cards were ever part of the plan. What happened by her not finding the loot had to drive her absolutely insane. If you believe even half of what Samora says, they were in that house for hours trying to find where the money was, where the jewels were. I mean, they even took Ha's Louis Vuitton bags as luggage on their way back to North Carolina. I mean, she took everything she could from that house because I think she was so sure she was gonna leave there a rich woman.

And I think when she got back home, everything started to unravel. She didn't have what she came for, other than revenge. And if she was ever going to get out of her situation, she's going to have to use those credit cards. And so she got more and more desperate and maybe a little bit emboldened because it worked at first. She was able to get the cash advances.

She was able to do some purchases and the police were not there. So she got sloppy. Had it not been for Taunha Nelson's greed, they got her car. They might still be outstanding suspect, only from the standpoint that even though that we have DNA evidence that would have actually linked them to the scene, but if their DNA is not in the system, it wouldn't link them to any hit in the system. The evidence was there connecting both Zamora and Tanya to the murders, but they never would have been caught if she hadn't been so sure she'd gotten away with it, that she brazenly used the credit cards on multiple shopping sprees. That mistake would be her ultimate downfall.

It was intense, it was stranger than fiction, the characters appear right at a central casting at times. I mean, you couldn't make this up. Tanya, after the guilt phase of the trial, became hysterical, yelling at the jury. There were days she did chose not to come out of her cell. She was difficult with her lawyers, wouldn't behave, and follow the court's instructions and directions. And I think the day of the closing arguments, we had the power go out right before we started closing arguments. So the whole courtroom went dark and it just had that whole eerie feeling that went along with all of this supernatural stuff. But ultimately, the power came back on,

we did our jobs, and the jury found her guilty, is charged, and found all the allegations true, and recommended the death penalty for her. Because of Zamora's cooperation with the investigation, the death penalty was taken off the table. Instead, the maximum sentence he could get would be 25 years to life. Well, I got him off death row and it allowed one sentence rather than two in California.

If you, I know he killed one and she killed the other but they both aided and abetted each other in the murders so he could have potentially been found guilty of the two murders. One where he's the slayer and one which he aided and abetted but we opted on the 25 years rather than 50 years life. He ultimately received an additional two years for being less than forthcoming during his testimony at trial. He tried to minimize, you know,

I think I alluded to the, I'm not a murderer because I won't kill a dog. But, you know, I did everything because she told me to and I had no idea any of this was going to happen until it happened and yes, I did everything because she told me to and I had no idea any of this was going to happen until it happened and yes, I did it, but only because I was commanded to and there were some some truths and some half truths and some lies and so You know if he was less than forthcoming our deal was that he would receive additional time. And so, I recommended that he receive an additional two years.

The judge agreed and he received an additional two years on the plea bargain, which I believe made a sentence 27 years to life. Even with Zamora's cooperation, he will be in prison until he's at least 68 years old. Tanya will spend the rest of her life on death row and likely never be executed. California hasn't executed a prisoner since 2006 and it doesn't look like they're gonna start now. It's very seldom that we see somebody with as much potential

as Tanya Nelson and Depp and Death Row. I mean, you have a mother of four, you have a shrewd business woman, she was smart, definitely capable. So it's a true shame that there was so much evil there. Evil, indeed. Killing Jade Smith was one thing, but also killing her daughter for revenge is as evil as it gets. But her decisions also deprived her children of growing up with a mother who cared about them, who paid attention ripples of her evil deeds really go far. It's not just what happened to a fortune teller in Westminster.

It goes much deeper than that, and that's what evil people do. Evil people do some evil things. Tanya never made a decision without advice from Jade Smith. She put her faith in Jade and her ability to see patterns in the seemingly random world. But when Jade recognized the patterns in Tanya's behavior that no amount of divination would help her. She cut her off. And at a time when Tanya felt she needed her advice the most. Tanya felt betrayed by the person she trusted or confident.

It's ironic that the one thing that Tanya really needed to do in her life, the one thing that Jade forced her to do when she cut her off to take responsibility for her own actions and her future and stop her lying on Jade's predictions was what led her to her murderous revenge and ultimately to being sentenced to death. We can only hope that Ha Jade Smith is resting in peace. But if she isn't, then let's hope she's haunting the fuck out of Tanya Nelson's prison cell. That That does it for another episode of Sword and Scale. We hope you've enjoyed it. Please consider signing up for PLUS.

It's only $5 a month and you get all kinds of bonus content, including 86 exclusive commercial-free episodes. Find out more at swordandscale.com slash plus. I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man, I'm a man Okay, my disrespecty from Casey. I tried returning to Jordan's guilt of the third time since he left and suddenly I had forgotten about the shit show of 2020 as soon as I heard your sexy ass voice. I'm so excited that you're back. Thank you for what you do. Your show has helped me to finally understand and stay inside of my family

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