Sword and Scale - Episode 186

Episode Date: May 2, 2021

In October of 2005, empty nesters Dennis and Norma Woodruff were found shot and stabbed to death in their Texas home. With a lack of physical evidence and leads, police fixated on the couple���s 19-year-old son Brandon as their killer when they found out he was in debt, flunking out of college, and secretly making gay porn. Was Brandon really the murderer, or were there other suspects roaming free? Was this a case of character assassination on young Brandon, or was he truly a cold-blooded killer?See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sort and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised It shocked everyone you know we're consulting these kids these kids don't have parents Where are they gonna live who's gonna support them? No one was thinking like that in our family live who's gonna support them, no one was thinking like that in our family. Hello boys and girls, welcome to season 8 episode 186 of Sword and Scale. I show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Well, last week we announced our Plus perk on Plus, and now we're letting you know about it, the general public.

If you want to sign up for the next Plus perk, you can do so right now to find out what it is you're going to have to visit our social media. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, either one you'll see what the perk is, you can see what it takes to qualify and you can join at sorenescale.com slash plus. Remember that this show only exists because of your support. Without it we would have been gone a long time ago. So if you listen regularly and can afford it, please consider joining today, today's the day, and get yourself a cool collector's item while you're at it.

Sword and Scale.com slash plus. Okay, here we go. Let's get some water going. On October 18th, 2005, in Royce City, Texas, Todd Williams had been called to the home of empty nesters, Dennis and Norma Woodruff to perform a welfare check. No one, including the couple's college-aged children, had heard from the Woodruffs in two days. This was very unusual, and the family was concerned. When Todd arrived, everything on the property looked normal. He tried the doors, but they were locked from the inside. Todd was told to check on Dennis and Norma by any means necessary.

So he broke into a window and forced his way into the house. What he saw shook him to the core. There were Dennis and Norma, sitting on the sofa with a soupy black blood pooling between their bodies. They had been shot and stabbed multiple times. The couple was propped up like two slaughtered ragdolls. There was no sign of a struggle, no signs of a break-in. Norma's hand was dangling over her head like a broken branch, while Dennis still had his tobacco spit cup clutched in the palm of his lap.

The TV was on, flashing light onto the cardboard box that Denison Norma were using as a makeshift coffee table. The small town of Roy City, had never seen a homicide this brutal and senseless before. Hi everyone! Are you looking to move to Roy City, Texas? Or maybe you're looking for a quiet small town with a touch of country, but lots of exciting growth? Roy City sits on the borders of Rockwell, Collin and Hunt counties. While this town still has a small town feel, it's seen considerable growth. Roy City is your typical small town in Texas with a quaint village square surrounded by rural properties, farmland and double-wide trailers. It's a simple town with simple folk

who wanna live life without city distractions. Like most small Texas towns, the epicenter is, yes, you guessed it, a Walmart Superstore. You thought it would never happen, but the Walmart's finally here. Today marks a historic day in Roy City, Texas. Why are you excited for the new Walmart? I have been waiting for years and years and years,

71 years exactly for Walmart. And I've been out here since 330, but now I had to leave this morning to go take chemo, but I'm back this afternoon. So that's the reason I'm so excited about Walmart. Let's go Walmart. Let's go Walmart. Hope the chemo works out there.

Anywho, earlier in the fall of 2005, Denison Normal Woodruff were looking for exactly what Royce City Texas offered. Land, simplicity, and the safety of a small town. Denison Normal had two children, Brandon and Charla, who were both off at different colleges a few hours away, so they downsized their family home in Heath, Texas, and moved the 14 miles to Roy City. Denys and Norma were high school sweethearts who met and fell in love in Texarkana, where

they were both raised. Norma was a rural girl who loved farm life, sports, and taking care of animals, especially horses. Dennis was the oldest of four kids. This is Dennis' younger sister, Carrie. Carrie was just a kid when Dennis and Norma started dating, but she remembers their love story well. She was a year younger than he was, so when he was a junior in high school, she came to the school as a 10th grader and they were both in the band, the marching band together, and the band took

a trip to Ireland to be in a parade and they got to know each other much deeper on that trip, spend all their time together and they were together ever since. After being apart for a year while Norma finished school, they communicated through love letters and got married in June of 1982 after Norma's graduation. The newlyweds migrated from Texarkana to Magnolia, Arkansas, where they both studied at Southern Arkansas University. Soon, Denison Norma decided to start a family. They had a daughter, Sharlah, in 1985, and then 13 months later, a son named Brandon. The Woodruff family settled in Heath, Texas, a middle-class suburb outside

of Dallas. Norma got super involved in the animal community in Heath, which is a big deal in the Lone Star State. All of her spare time was spent either working with the 4-H, so she was on the board of directors of the local 4-H. And then she worked with an organization called Equest, which was an organization that helped special needs kids ride horses. Norma's love for animals was passed down to her son Brandon. Even as a kid, Brandon was a bit of a Caesar Milan. You know, the famous dog whisperer with multiple TV shows who can turn a rabid snarling beast into man's best friend with just a few mind control tricks.

Where's that worked on people? Anyway, unlike Caesar, Brandon wasn't just good with dogs. He was a gifted trainer of all animals. But Brandon from a young age had rabbits. He had dogs that delivered puppies in his bedroom closet. He had a pet goat that would come in the house. As Brandon grew up, he got more and more involved in the animal world, especially the 4-H club. For those of you that don't know, the 4-H club is an organization for children and teens that nurtures a child's interest through after-school education.

Kids will go to learn about anything from photography, to building rockets, to raising sheep, whatever their thing happens to be. 4H is a big deal in rural areas. While Norma sat on the board of directors at 4H, Brandon excelled in the program's gear towards animal training and farming. Then he started showing goats and cows in 4H, and so he would win these competitions at showing them. He would win the money, and he would also sell the animal8 and so he would win these competitions at showing them. He would win the money and he would also sell the animal and then he would use that money to buy more animals and so he just got better

and better at those competitions. Brandon's fearlessness and easy going attitude earned him a reputation as a bit of a class clown. He wasn't scared of anything. He entered a radio contest once on the radio and they said to win some tickets to a concert. He had to stand out in the median of one of the busy streets in Dallas and I think stand in his underwear and hold a sign. He did that. Got those tickets. You know, he was voted most school spirited.

While Brandon was a fun loving animal obsessed kid with a little bit of a wild side. His older sister, Charlotte, was much more studious and much more serious. Charlotte rode horses like her brother and like the outdoors, but her real interests were school-oriented. I would just say that Charlotte was always more studious than Brandon. But Charlotte went through some emotional rough patches when she was 15 years old. She was fighting a lot with her parents and with her brother Brandon. At first, it seemed like typical teenage girl angst. She was angry, depressed, and prone to emotional outbursts.

But then things took a serious turn. According to medical records from the court, in the spring of 2000, Charlotte tried to shoot herself, but the gun's safety was in a position where it wouldn't fire. After the suicide attempt, Sharlas was hospitalized for weeks, monitored by several doctors then sent to a therapist, who monitored her new dose of medication and helped to try to curb her depression through therapy. Sharlas' emotional frustrations were projected

onto her parents. After all, they were the people closest to her since they were all living under the same roof. The same doctor also assessed Dennis and Norma in an effort to help the family function as a whole. Then there was the dog incident. Charlotte's brother Brandon had a German shepherd that died suddenly. After taking the animal to the vet, the Woodruffs found out that the dog had been poisoned with antifreeze. Who the hell would want to kill Brandon's dog?

It was a German shepherd that Brandon had purchased a full bread and it had been poisoned. My sister said, well, you know what they say, you know, about people who hurt animals. That's exactly why I say that. That makes me nervous. Charlotte seemed to be getting better and by 2002, she had enrolled in Southern Arkansas State University on a career path in law enforcement. She went to the police academy and she worked at the Miller County Sheriff's Office, but she also had a job.

After that, I believe it was after that where she just worked campus security back at Magnolia, where she had gone to college. Dennis and NOMO were loving supportive parents, but they weren't always good with their finances. Yes, their move to Roy City was prompted by their kids leaving the nest, but they had found themselves in $300,000 worth of credit card debt. They had begun working with a debt consolidator to handle their money problems, but Dennis and NOMO were spenders. They loved collecting things.

In fact, Dennis had been obsessed with Dolly Parton since he was a teenager, and had turned his home office and heath into his own version of Dollywood. Over the years, Dennis had collected vinyl, posters, books, life-size cutouts, dolly's custom wigs, and even a dolly-parton pinball machine. That sounds kind of cool, actually. Basically, anything dolly-related, Dennis owned. Norma, on the other hand, was into real estate. She obsessively circled listings in the newspaper, which she kept in stacks

around the house. She also collected briar horses and had a mast, an unbelievable troop of strange figurines. This is podcaster and independent filmmaker, Scott Pogansi, who has been studying the Woodruff murders for years. Dennis and Norma, they had been through credit counseling before. You know, it's one of these services where if you have a whole bunch of credit card debt, they come in and they consolidate all of the credit card debt and they help you pay it down

and they help you lower the interest rates and stuff like that. So they had been through this before and by what we've been able to find, they had actually, even though they paid off all of those credit cards, they started to charge up a bunch more. So they were pretty, just by looking at it from an outsider's view, they were pretty irresponsible when it came to their credit card debt. In the fall of 2005, Dennis and Norma had started their move from the family home in Heath to Royce City. Charlotte and Brandon were both off living their own lives at college and occasionally driving back to visit on weekends or special holidays. Dennis and Norma had a lot of things to go through

at the house in Heath, so most of their belongings remain there while they settled in the Royce City double wide and worked on managing their debt. Charlotte kept in close contact with her parents, calling them to check in more than most twenty-somethings would, while Brandon went back and forth from school to help his mother with her horses and the other animals they still had at the Heathhouse, which included some dogs and a rare bird that belonged to Brandon.

On the weekend of October 16, 2005, Brandon left his university to go home for the weekend to hang with friends and Dallas and help his parents continue moving. He made plans to have dinner with Dennis and Norma in Roy City that Sunday, and afterwards he was planning to go clubbing with some friends. That evening, Charlotte was also away from her dorm room. She had been in Texarkana for the weekend, babysitting for one of her aunts. On Sunday, October 16th, Charlotte popped in to see her grandparents before leaving Texas, Arcana.

And so she went over and it was around nine o'clock. She was visiting with them and she was just about to leave. I think at 10 to 9.930, she was gonna leave and go back to Magnolia Sunday night. And so while she was there, her grandmother was on the phone with Norma, and her grandmother stood charla on the phone with your mom. Do you want to speak to her?

And she said, not right now because tell her I'm going to call her as soon as I get to my dorm. That night, charla claims to have tried calling Dennis and Norma after arriving back at Southern Arkansas State University. But according to her, no one picked up. On the night of October 16th, 2005, Charla had called her mom at 11 o'clock at night, nobody answered, and then she tried calling

again the next day. She was getting concerned. She called Brandon, Brandon tried calling and then Tuesday by the afternoon, it got to the point where they were starting to realize, well, wait a second, this is really, really bad. And what I think was the straw that broke the camel's back was,

charla had called both of their works. And both of their works had said, no, they haven't been here in two days. This is Tuesday afternoon, and we haven't seen them at all Monday or Tuesday. And that really started to concern everybody. By Tuesday, the whole family was concerned. They decided to take matters into their own hands. They called up a friend in Roy's

city for help. That's when Todd Williams made the trip down to Dennis and Norma's trailer, only to find them brutally murdered. Dennis was shot once in the face directly straight on right right square in the face and then he was stabbed nine times. Norma was shot four or five times and she was stabbed about five times as well. Dennis didn't really have any defensive wounds because it's theorized that that one shot to his face pretty much incapacitated him and then Norma actually did have some defensive wounds. She had a bullet that went through her right hand. She had some strange hairs in her right hand

that looked like she was fighting off an attacker. So they were both shot and stabbed and this was by all accounts a very, very bloody crime scene. Aside from the brutalized bodies of Dennis and Norma, there was a trail of blood drops going from the living room to the guest bathroom. Had the killer felt comfortable enough to wash up after the slaughter?

This looked like an intentional, rage-fueled homicide, and all evidence pointed to a perpetrator who knew the Woodroofs. The murder was unnecessarily messy. It seemed personal, like it was someone with an unstable psyche who had not planned much at all and suddenly snapped. Who would be insane enough to do this to Dennis and Norma in the seemingly safe quiet town of Roy City, Texas?

We'll give you a hint. It may not be who you think. Royce City Empty Nusters, Dennis and Norma Woodruff had been shot to death and then brutally stabbed. Family members hadn't heard from the couple in 48 hours and their bodies had finally been discovered after a friend went over to do a welfare check. The Hunt County police were stunned at this senseless crime. They called in the assistance of the Texas Rangers, and one lieutenant named Jeffrey Collins took the lead on the case. Ranger Collins was determined to find out who would commit such a heinous crime on these two unsuspecting victims. This was a ferocious

angry murder, a classic case of overkill. As police studied the scene, they started developing theories based on the evidence. The Woodruff House was locked from the inside, which led investigators to believe that whoever killed Dennis and Norma was invited in. Their dead bodies were positioned on the couch in such a way that suggested they didn't try to run or fight before being shot and killed. The blood droplet trail leading from the living room to the guest bathroom was the result of passive blood flow, which means that blood just sort of freefalls from the perpetrator

as he or she dashed over to wash up. The shower curtain and some other bathroom items were collected as evidence and swobbed for DNA, as the police thought the killer may have felt confident enough to possibly shower afterwards. The medical examiner who conducted enormous autopsy theorized that the gun had been less than 12 inches from her face when it was fired. The killer had been able to get up close and personal without a struggle from either Dennis or Norma. Nothing of value was stolen from

the home, but then again nothing of value was in the home, except for maybe a new TV and some jewelry. This definitely wasn't a robbery gone wrong. According to Aunt Carrey, Denison Norma had only lived at the Royce City House for a few weeks and had brought over just enough furniture to get by. The majority of their valuables were back at the Heathhouse. The only thing that police noted missing were Denison Norma's wallets. The family was notified of the tragedy almost immediately, but they were not given the grizzly details or told that this was definitely a murder. Aunt Kerry says that Sharla and Brandon made their way home from college to be with their extended family in Grieve. The police wanted to talk to the kids, especially Brandon.

The police wanted to talk to the kids, especially Brandon. After all, he was the last person to see his parents alive at dinner that night. Before the interviews, Charlotte and Brandon were given some advice on how to deal with police. But it wasn't the kind of advice you would expect from a criminal defense attorney. And that's because their advice didn't come from a criminal defense attorney. And that's because their advice didn't come from a criminal defense attorney. Instead, another aunt, Norma's sister, had worked at a family law firm in Texas, or Canada and asked her boss to give charla

and brand in a little prep before their police interviews. The problem is that not being criminal defense attorneys and just doing this as a favor for their employee, they really did brand in a disservice because they didn't know what to tell him. You know, any criminal defense attorney worth their weight in lead would say, don't talk to the police. And if you do talk to the police, I'm going talk to the police I'm gonna be there and I'm gonna you know look at every question that they asked you and then I'm going to You know decide whether or not you can answer et cetera et cetera

These attorneys almost seem like they were working for the police, you know They they would sit there and say things like don't argue with the police don't argue with these officers How many times do I have to say it? Never talk to cops. Ranger Collins interviewed Charlotte first. Charlotte admitted she had gone through some rough times with her family in her teenage years. She had fought with Dennis and he had her hospitalized after her suicide attempt.

She told Ranger Collins that the reason she tried to kill herself was that she was very depressed after her cousin died in a sudden car wreck. I was in God when I was a living. And he was 16, and he had a quarry. And from then on, I was very messed up. And I tried to kill myself when I was 14. How did you try to kill him? With a guy. But I messed up. And I messed up the gun.

It was difficult time, but I think the hardest time was probably 14 to 16. I was going through a lot I think a lot of girls are kids period. That's probably a hard time for a person. It's been a hard time for a, and it was to me, just me, my situation. Charlotte spent her interview gushing personal confessions. She was honest and admitted to the problems her emotional issues caused the family. She said that when she was a teenager, there had been tensions between her and her parents. Ranger Collins nodded along, empathizing with her about how hard parents can be on their eldest child.

Charlotte talked about how she and Brandon didn't always get along. She said that when they were young, he would tease her a lot and even lock her outside just to drive her crazy. But family was very, very important to her. Despite all their past problems, that would never change," she said. As Ranger Collins and the other investigators conducted their interviews, the Woodruff family had a funeral to prepare for, and things to arrange. Charlotte stayed with Norman's parents while Brandon stayed with Dennis' mom, along with Azont Carey. Brandon and Charlotte dealt with their grief very differently.

Charlotte was in Consolvo. She had trouble getting into the limousine after the funeral and had to be helped into the limousine because she was so distraught, falling apart, crying. Brandon was serious. And so many people at the funeral acted like he showed no emotion. And they looked at, you know, now he had been consumable the night before, and he cried the entire evening. So, you know, some people get their crying out at home

and so that they can be at the funeral. And some people can't cry until they come to the funeral and it becomes real for them. The family was in shambles, just trying to keep it together enough so they could lean on one another for support. But what they didn't know was that Ranger Collins had been talking to people inside and outside the family. Brandon had told his relatives that after dinner with Denysen Norma on Sunday, October 16th, he had driven back to campus in Abelene. However, when Ranger Collins interviewed a next-door neighbor at Denysen Norma's Heath Residence, he said that he saw Brandon at the property between 10pm andm. and 11 p.m.

Why had Brandon lied to his family? Unless, of course, he had something to hide. Brandon became the main suspect because it had gotten back to the lead investigator in this case, which is a Texas Ranger named Jeffrey Collins. It had gotten back to him from the family that Brandon had told them that he had dinner with his parents left around seven o'clock at night and went straight back to college. Well, when Texas Ranger Jeffrey Collins did an interview with one of the neighbors at the Heath House, he told Ranger Collins, I saw Brandon at the Heath House

between 10 and 11 p.m. I know it was between 10 and 11 p.m. because when the I watch my shows and then when the 10 o'clock news comes on, that's when I start getting ready for bed. I was in the process of getting ready for bed when I looked out the window. I saw Brandon in his truck and the next door neighbor and next door at his house. So Ranger Collins started to realize, well, wait a second, if Brandon went back to college at seven o'clock, like he's telling his family, and we have a neighbor that's saying that he saw Brandon between 10 and 11 p.m. it's not matching up. And that right there started to get it in Ranger Collins's head.

The Brandon was misrepresenting where he was that night. Brandon's interview with Ranger Collins got off to a rocky start. He came in hot. Brandon was pissed off that not only had police torn apart his dorm room while he was at his parents funeral, but they had rifled through Dennis's Dolly Parton tribute room at the Heathhouse and left it a total mess. We are sorry for your olds' loss. We are doing everything that we possibly can to put your hands on. Okay, and I understand that.

But I just ended up telling you guys and I've got this or take care right now. And some of the things that y'all do and I understand that I was the last one with my parents. I understand that. But what I don't also understand is that there's certain policies and stuff that I think that y'all should hold up to and not do some of the things that y'all did. And ruining my whole of the world like that. Okay, but that's what I was saying. I was not as you're going on, okay. I don't know. I don't know what the condition could be. My grandmother has told me that whoever is first to house with the other house, that my dad's not like part of the room, that

was a very, very special room. And that room is also my cell. Okay. And I think that is very responsible for that needs to fix that. Okay. We did that. That's that's wrong. The dolly part in room was a very, very, very special room. Hmm. Do you hear a list? I hear a list. Oh, here's something you should know about Brandon. While Charla went off to Arkansas for university, Brandon was accepted to Abilene Christian University, a very conservative religious school about three hours away. Brandon's good friend had convinced him to go to ACU with him, and Brandon's grades weren't good enough

to get into the schools he had his sights on, so he went. ACU was somewhat of an odd choice of university because at the time, Brandon had started to experiment. Throughout his time in high school, Brandon had been part of a crew of boys calling themselves the shit-kickers. The shit-kickers were rural boys who rode horses, drove big trucks and acted like cowboys. However, at the end of high school Brandon veered off from the shit-kickers.

He started dressing differently, trading in his beat-up jeans for designer clothes and a sculpted hairdo. He was hanging out in nightclubs in Dallas, more importantly he was experimenting with his sexuality. Metrasexual, I believe is the term. Though Brandon was still dating his high school girlfriend, now he was also secretly seeing a guy and spending more and more time in the city at gay clubs with his new friends. Mike ETHRINGTON, one of the shittaker cowboys, was particularly irritated with Brandon's sudden change.

Though it's not really clear why. According to Brandon's relatives, Mike and Brandon had always had a competitive friendship that verged on a rivalry, whether it came to the 4-H club or girls. I would call Brandon and Mike frenemies because they were always together. I would say through junior high and high school, they were involved in all of the same things, had the same friends. I even believe that Mike liked Morgan, who was Brandon's girlfriend, and wanted to date her himself.

And so sometimes, even if the person is a good friend of yours, if they're in everything you're in, there's always gonna be some competition. And Brandon was always a little bit better. He had the girlfriend, he won the 4-H shows or competitions and later he was even awarded a scholarship from 4-H for college that Mike was not. And just so many of those things, it was like they would be hanging out one day but then they're fighting the next day.

As Brandon expanded his horizons beyond the shit-kickers and began to branch out with a new sexuality and social life, the tension between him and Mike grew. It finally exploded one day with a fight at school that resulted in police being called the campus. And the fight that they had at school was brought about by teasing Mike, kind of approaching Brandon at his locker and taunting him and teasing him and calling him like, you know, maybe a pretty boy or something like that teasing about the way he had started dressing and acting and they wouldn't leave him alone and I know Brandon tried to just, you know, say, stay away from me. I don't want to hang around you.

Just leave me alone. And they kind of kept pushing it and kind of pushing them around. And I know then they ended up getting into a fist fight. I know Dennis was an upset about that because of the fact that he knew Brandon was standing up for himself. Oh, and here's one more thing about Mike. Remember Brandon's poison German shepherd? Well, we tricked you a bit earlier with some creative editing.

Here's the full clip. The story about the dog I know is just for my sister because she actually spoke with Dennis. And he told her that the German, it was a German Shepherd that Brandon had purchased a full bread. And it had been poisoned. And Dennis told my sister, I really just, I don't know why, but I have a strong suspicion that I feel it was Mike that did this. I feel like, you know, he's just the first person

that comes to mind. And I'm a little bit scared of him because my sister said, well, you know what they say, you know, about people who hurt animals. And he said, that's exactly know what they say, you know, about people who hurt animals. And he said, that's exactly what I say that, you know, if it was him, that that makes me nervous. Much like his parents and lots of other 19-year-olds, Brandon was also irresponsible with his money. He had signed up for a credit card. You know how credit card companies love doing tight, snive, broke college kids with what feels like a high credit limit and a hidden

extremely high interest rate? Well, Brandon had been sucked in and was spending wildly on a city credit card. In the court documents, it's reported he maxed out $2,500 in one week. Then a month later, he got a capital one card and spent another $1,000 on things he didn't really need, like clothes and treating his friends to dinner. Besides overspending, Brandon was also flunking some classes. He would spend a lot of his evenings in Dallas late night clubbing and would miss class. Abilene Christian University is a strict school.

It's the kind of school where you have to ask permission to leave campus for days at a time. It's a three strikes in your out kind of deal. And Brandon was running out of strikes. It's been reported that he had been issued a tuition refund for a class he would no longer be in. And instead of returning the $1,300 to his parents, he decided to spend the money himself. When his father Dennis found out about the tuition refund, he was pissed.

So they called a family friend named Todd Williams and they told him, you know, hey, go over there, do a welfare check, get in the house any way that you have to, because we're really, really worried about him. As the police interview chugged along, Brandon admitted that he lied to his family, and not just about the refund check. He did not drive straight back to campus

after eating dinner. The real story is that after pizza with Dennis and Norma, he went to the stables for his mother like she asked him to. Then he did animal chores at the Heath House. But after that, Brandon met up with a friend from ACU in Denton, then went to Plano to a friend's house to get ready to go to a club, a gay club called station four, the place to be for LGBT kids on a Sunday night. He didn't mention any of this to his parents, by the way.

And because of this excursion, Brandon didn't start to head home to Abelene until after midnight. Oh, here's Brandon lying to police. So your dad came back with a pizza about 630 you ate dinner with him at the house and then you left so you could go back over to the house and he said you were running late. Well, I see I had brought friends or a friend from ACU, and he was someone's girlfriend didn't. I'm not really familiar with like the didn't area. And I always, yeah, school the next day, and we were all gonna go out that night.

What's more, my other friend from Plano. So I had to go to the pick him up and then go be like, I can't play now by certain times that we could go out that night in Dallas. This is on Sunday. Yeah, so he kept calling me like, while I was trying to eat, and like, you know what I'm saying? Sure, because I was gonna'm saying sure cuz I was gonna

And then my girlfriend was gonna meet us for dinner, but she couldn't because she had to go do something else So okay, we just I just heard out hate and then we said our advice and that was it But with your parents, so your girlfriend, you're right, okay, so yeah, that's okay So you left the you left Your folks house and you said you had to go feed animals and stuff like that. I got a pair over there. And then my mom and dad got two dogs. Brandon explained that he had to go to the Heath House to take care of his exotic parrot and feed his mom's two dogs that were living on the property outside.

Ranger Collins wanted specific times. Branded noted along to the Ranger suggestions when he didn't know the correct answer. And then seven, you left the parents house over in Roy City and you go over to Heath, feed the animals and parent and all that. How long does that take? I mean, how long does it take to get from what we're sitting to get to what's sitting to he's maybe 20 to 25 minutes. Okay, 30 yet the most. Okay, I might have been there. At the most for 30 minutes, maybe at the most. Okay. 30 minutes. All right, so you feed the dogs in the birds, you were there for like 30 minutes. So you think probably by you to clock then you're headed towards Denton. Yeah.

So when Ranger Collins started to pin him down on the time that he was at all of these places, you know, he told him, I'm not really sure, but okay, I'll go ahead and agree with you. That makes sense. Well, the problem was that he, you know, Ranger Collins in the back of his pocket had this neighbor that had seen brand in between 10 and 11 p.m. So as soon as Brandon said that he left the Heath House at eight o'clock and he agreed with what Ranger Collins said, I think that cemented

it in his mind. Okay, this guy's lying to me. I'm going to prove that he did this. Both kids said they had nothing to hide, and their family members believed them. Aunt Carrie remembers that the family theorized that Denison Norma's murder was an attack from someone who had become mixed up in the Woodruff's money troubles, or a psycho targeting the family for some crazy reason. Never did they expect Brandon, especially since the family had made some pretty obvious enemies as of late. But when Dennis and Norman moved to that property just two weeks before, Dennis actually asked

my brother for that gun because he had an uneasy feeling, he told my sister because they actually had to bid for that land. And there was someone else who really wanted it. And somehow, Dennis was aware that they were very, very upset that they did not win and did not get to buy it. And I don't know why Dennis felt a little threatened by these people, but he asked to have that gun with him because he said, it's just not a

good situation. Everyone in the family was on edge as they tried to wrap their heads around the horrific murders, going over possible perpetrators while also supporting Sharlah and Brandon. The funeral was on the following Saturday that I mentioned. And then the next day, Sunday, we, the rest of the family were going to the house in Roy City. They had released it to us because a crew had come out and cleaned the scene. And so we went and while we were doing that, Brandon and Charlotte were giving interviews that night when we were finished,

we went to pick them back up. And so it was probably, I don't know, nine o'clock and we were out in the lobby of the sheriff's office and we were waiting on Brandon because he was in talking to the sheriff. And whenever he came out, we were going home. We all were in different vehicles and my husband was driving enormous truck back to Texarkana. I was in the passenger seat. My brother and Brandon were in the back seat. And so we drove all the way to Texarkana. Well, we're about halfway to Texarkana.

And my husband says, I'm pretty sure we're being followed. While Brandon slept in the back of the truck's cab, Aunt Kerry and the adult passengers started to become suspicious of a car tailing them. So we're thinking whoever did this is now after us and we were scared to death, but his name wasn't really sure. And so he pulled off to get gas,

that car pulled off and kind of lurked around the gas station, got back on and we got back on. My husband says, yeah, definitely, that car is hanging back, but keeping up with us. And so we were just, Brandon was asleep, but me and my brother and my husband were really scared. And so it was a Sunday night where we had pulled into Texarkana. And so my husband stayed over in the farthest left lane

of the interstate, even though we were coming up to our exit of Texarkana. And at the very last minute, he went across two lanes to get to the exit to see what the car would do and it did the same. After exiting onto Texarkana, Aunt Carrey's husband made a quick swing into a Walmart parking lot in the hopes of getting away. But the car kept right on their trail. When they pulled up a row in the parking lot, the car followed. Then they went back and forth, back and forth, weaving through the lot like a game of cat and mouse.

So then we kind of went up and down the aisles and they went up and down the aisles. And somehow my husband was able to maneuver the car around an aisle to where we ended up behind them. And when they noticed that, they sped as fast as they could out of the Walmart parking lot. Aunt Carrey's husband followed the car and quickly wrote down the make, model, and license plate number. They switched on the on-star function in the truck and called 911. When police arrived, all they could say was that the car was registered to someone in Quinlan, Texas.

Everyone was spooked. Quinlan, Texas was just a few miles away from the murder scene in Roy City. Who was the psycho following them? The 146 miles from Quinlan, all the way to Texarkana. That's all they could tell us. I mean, we lost the car and they just said, that's all we could tell you. Someone from Quinlan, Texas, and we're like, okay, well, let the police know.

And we told the police where we would be located, where we would be spinning the night. That night, the family was scared, and moreover exhausted. Aunt Carried in sleep a wink, and her brother was so paranoid that he kept a gun under his pillow all night. While the adults slay restless, wondering if this mysterious Quinlan person was the murderer who killed Dennis and Norma, Brandon curled up on the living room

couch and fell asleep. And the next morning we were woken up by, you know, black suburban's descending upon my sister's house, and my brother had just stepped outside the house because he had gotten dressed and went out, and they like met him with guns and said, what is your name? And he said, Randy and they said, we're looking and said, what is your name? And he said, Randy, and they said,

we're looking for Brandon. Is he in there? And they woke him up. He didn't even have on shoes. And they just said, put your hands behind your back. You're being arrested. And as soon as the shower, Clay was asleep in the back bedroom. And I went and quickly closed the door.

So he wouldn't see that happening. And right about that time, my mom had arrived and was asking them, where are you taking him? Why are you arresting him? What is going on? And they told him they were arresting him for capital murder. And then they were just leaving.

They were saying nothing else to us. The family watched in disbelief, as 19-year-old Brandon Woodruff was dragged across the lawn in handcuffs, still half asleep under arrest for the murder of both of his parents. Amidst the chaos, Aunt Kerry chased one of the officers and got his attention. I have to ask you,

did you have a guy following us last night? And they said yes, and he was a very good at his job. 19-year-old Brandon Woodruff had just been arrested for capital murder in the death of his parents, Dennis, and Norma. The couple had been found shot and stabbed a death in their home in Roy City, Texas. Brandon had been caught in a few lies that made police suspect he had something to do with the murders. Not only was Brandon allegedly the last person to see his parents alive, but he was also secretly flunking out of his uptight Christian college while simultaneously

experimenting with his sexuality. Furthermore, a neighbor had spotted Brandon at his parents' former residence at a time he told police he was somewhere else. Lead investigator Ranger Collins was convinced that Brandon had committed these unspeakable murders, and he would stop at nothing to prove this skinny, bleach-blown 19-year-old was capable of murder. Brandon was arrested a week after the murders and held in jail on a million dollar bond. Brandon protested the charges. He swore. He was innocent. Finding out that Brandon was suspected was just like that because that was not occurring to us. We're conserving these kids. These kids don't have parents. Where are they going to live? Who's going to support them?

No one was thinking like that in our family. Most people in Brandon's family felt this way. Everyone except his sister, Charlotte. After Brandon was arrested, Charlotte became swayed by the police's theories. She saw the fact that Brandon was hiding his new sexual life as deceitful. She talked openly to the police about her conversations with Brandon and Jail. I said, bruh, are you gay? He said, no. I said, are you gay? He said, no. Are you gay?

He said, no. Well, I mean, there's this left side that I was gay. And who is this firefighter? Because y'all haven't opened his eyes. You want to make sure you had fun last weekend and another weekend and a... So that's my friend from Florida, he was in Florida. I said, okay, there's a lot of guys on that right now. A lot of guys. He's a lot of gay friends. That's a lot of great.

That's good for you. Who's Alex? No, I don't know for that word I'm setting up. I just think it's their king and I'm a little weird thing. A lot of weird things. And a lot of people are saying you're gay. And if you lie, I know that's a good guy. If you lie about little things burning in,

even if you think they're upsetting their family, if you lie about little things, but you even if you think they're upsetting their family, if you lie about little things, but you're telling the truth about the big things, they're going to know you're liar, they're not going to believe you. I said, so you mean to lie out and tell them the truth about everything. And he said, I'm not gay, I'm not gay as a brain and who's Alex. Well, I was just my best friend. I said to Brandon, who's Alex. He said, Alex just have his friends. I said, Brandon who's Alex. He's

like, Alex is gay but I'm not gay." In many ways, Charla was right. Secrets would only hurt him. Brandon was behind bars awaiting trial for murder, and he had to tell the truth about everything in his life no matter how painful it would be. We've seen it before in many trials where an accused killer lies about an affair or a secret sexual life, then the prosecution uses the secret as character assassination. If you can lie about being gay or having sex with your secretary, then you can lie about murder, right? Maybe.

Maybe not. Brandon hadn't come out to his hometown cowboy friends. Christian college mates or charla just yet. But his parents knew that something was up. He was experimenting with his sexuality and going to gay clubs. His father had talked to his sister about it. His aunt Kathy when she was talking to the Texas Ranger as well. She even she said that she had a conversation with Dennis that very day. And you know, Dennis was basically saying Brandon's gay. And I'm just I'm worried about him in life and being happy.

And I don't want people to hate him because he's gay. And you know, so he was more concerned about Brandon in life than he was about, you know, his son being gay. He didn't care if his son was gay or not. And that was something that was a huge point of contention with the prosecution. You know, they tried to cover it up and make it seem like that neither one of his parents had any inkling that he was gay, but the defense was able to bring out through these other witnesses and other people that,

you know, yeah, they did know that he was gay and they were completely fine with it. Brandon's conviction relied solely on circumstantial evidence. Police had not been able to find any physical evidence tying Brandon to his parents' death. Brandon had passed two lie detector tests and willingly offered his DNA to the police. Ranger Collins fixated on Brandon as his main suspect and didn't explore any other options. After all, Brandon said he was at the Heath House at 8pm when a neighbor saw

him between 10 and 11pm, which made him look guilty. The last known contact with Dennis or Norma was 9pm on October 16. Did Brandon drive back to their house between all his chores and errands to murder them before meeting up with his friends. It was a bit of a stretch, but possible. However, phone records proved that Brandon was making and receiving phone calls every few minutes during the time police alleged he would have been committing the murders. Was he shooting them and stabbing them between casual chit chat? That didn't really make sense.

Brandon was also in debt and failing his classes. Rumors flew around that Brandon had done some gay porn modeling and movies in Florida. School friends who rode with him to the club the night of the murders said he had freaked out when one of them tried to open his overnight bag. What was he hiding? The police said it must have been the murder weapons and his parents' wallets. However, when the bag was tested, it was negative for any traces of blood, or Dennis and Norma's DNA, and Brandon didn't have the wallets. So there was evidence that made him look

suspicious, but it was flawed. However, there was evidence that made others look suspicious too. Namely, Brandon's frenemy, Mike Etherington. Remember him? On the Tuesday that Dennis and Norma's bodies were found, they were taken over to the Southwest Institute of Forensic Science and Dallas for an autopsy. On Wednesday morning, Ranger Collins went to Dallas to witness the autopsy, and when he got out, he had a message from dispatch saying that Mike's mother, coincidentally, also named Norma, was trying to reach him. He called her back and she said,

I have some information about the Woodruff murders. And it struck him as odd because at that point, they had just left the autopsy. They didn't even know if it was a murder yet. I mean, there was all things that, all these different things that it could have been. And here there is a woman calling and saying, Hey, I have information about the Woodruff murders. So they talked to Norma and Norma basically told them, you know, that their son Brandon was leading a alternative lifestyle and was just kind of a big fat

liar and lied about all kinds of stuff and was just a really weird guy and her son Mike had a lot more information and he had put on his my space that he hated his parents and you know all of this stuff and of course the investigators are like eating it up like holy crap sounds like we have a suspect. The police never had Norma etterington for a taped interview, but they did have her son Mike come talk to Ranger Collins for about two hours. Mike's interview sounded more like a gossip session about the beef between Brandon and the shit-kickers.

Mike described Brandon as a liar and a weirdo, someone who always needed to be the center of attention. Mike said he used to hang out with Brandon, but now he had changed and he was turning into a preppy boy. like our mony and this and that and trying to look real good to the girls and we'd always just kind like, you know, bongs and G-strings and all that crap. And they don't sell such, you know, discussing articles, but he found some weird string underwear. He bought them and bought these under armor, those really tight shirts and stuff. Gay outfits shopping at Walmart. Who knew? Mike went on about Brandon's behavior for over an hour and halfway through their discussion, Ranger Collins left the room to switch out the tapes. Mike took this opportunity to call his shit kicker buddy and fill him in on what was going on in the interview. Okay, I'm still up here.

They're switching on tapes and stuff like that. Though they're recording, you can do those, but you have to switch up the tapes and in case you're in the water. I mean, I'm not like straight up, something you don't sit there and just say, I mean, you can't sit there and just say it's gonna be to tell them everything that you know about it, you know, all the good things that, you know, have happened and stuff like that.

Joe, you're getting upset, chill. You don't, I know, I'm watching him. I get into it. No, but in order to take him to court, you have to show enough evidence to say that that could be against him. You see what I'm saying? Here's a pro tip. When a detective says they're going to leave the room for a sec to switch out the tapes,

they're still recording. Who uses tapes anyway? Mike says, you can't sit there and say it's him. You have to tell everything you know about him. I mean, think about that statement. Then Mike says, I'm watching how deep I get into it. In order to take him to court, you have to show enough evidence that could be against him.

Mike also claimed that Brandon had written that he hated his parents on his MySpace page. It hurts my soul that you, whipper snappers out there, won't even know what MySpace is. It's basically Facebook before Facebook existed. It was all the rage back then. This old Boomer misses MySpace. In any case, this little somewhat insignificant detail was a big win for Ranger Collins because when he fact-checked the claim, it turned out Mike had only heard it from a friend and it wasn't actually true. Collins was pissed. He had already put this MySpace allegation in some official documents and criminating Brandon and now he just looked like a liar. My first thing I would that you don't understand because you're on the telephone and I was in the room

on the speaker phone listening to you give out that information and that information was very matter of fact. Exactly. First hand knowledge and that's not what you're telling me right now. Exactly. And you have to understand that documents you know, documents were prepared that I sweared to that this information came across to us. You know, and I mean, there's nothing I can do about that now. You know, I swore to the fact that that's what I believe was true and correct. And I stand beside that because at that time, I believe that it was

true and correct. But let me ask you something. Would you want somebody to come along and give information on you that puts you in jail while it takes us several months or something to investigate something like that while you're sitting in jail? Here's what else we know about the ethring tones. On the night of the murders, Mike told Ranger Collins that he was in Heath and in bed by midnight. But when Collins obtained Mike's cell phone records, months and months after the interview, it showed that Mike's cell phone pinged off a tower a few miles away from the murder

scene in Roy City at 2am the night of the crime. We also know that the night before the murders, Brandon and his girlfriend were at Chick-fil-A near Heath when he ran into Mike. Nasty words were exchanged, and Mike tried to run Brandon's truck off the road. Dennis' sister Kathy testified at trial that Dennis suspected that Mike not only had poisoned Brandon's German shepherd, but a lamb as well. poisoned Brandon's German shepherd, but a lamb as well. Court records show that Mike called Brandon multiple times guarded by star 67, the morning the bodies were found. It's also been said that Brandon's mom was the one responsible for getting Mike's mom

Norma kicked off the board at 4-H, the same club that now dead Norma had chaired at one point. Remember Mike's mom is the one who called police to tip them off that their son had more info about that weird kid Brandon and his possible involvement with the murder. This all happened after Brandon had received a 4-H college scholarship that he and Mike were both vying for. Petty, right? But in small town, Texas, these things are kind of a big deal. While Brandon sat in jail,

the prosecution crafted their case against them, relying on his sexual orientation and absent-mindedness as ammunition for his guilt. The motive, Brandon needed to kill his parents to hide the fact that he was failing at school and to hide his homosexuality. It took four years for Brandon's trial to happen. During that time, two possible weapons surfaced. One was a revolver that had been found missing at the house of Brandon's girlfriend.

Her parents said that they had noticed the weapon was missing after the murders. The police never located the gun, but the bullets used in this revolver were the same type of caliber that were found in Dennis and Norma's bodies. However, both Brandon and Mike, as well as many other guests of the Lee family,

would have had access to that weapon and its ammo, as it was sitting in a shelf in a spare room. The missing revolver at the Lee house was a theory at best, but police felt it a strong one. Then, two years later, a knife was found amongst the storage items in the barn at Denison Norma's house in Heath. Denison's sister Kathy had been cleaning out the barn in preparation for sale and came across a long dagger wrapped in plastic. It was kind of a strange thing to find, so she called police

to turn over the knife. When the police tested the dagger, they found traces of Dennis' own blood in the crest on the handle. Court records show that there were hairs found in normal woodruff's defensive hand when she died. The hairs were long and blonde. Could they have been Brandon's? Not likely. At the time of the murders, Brandon's hair was short and died black for a play he was going to be in. Inexplicably, the Woodruff went on trial for Capitol Murder.

Most of the extended family stood by Brandon, except for Charlotte and Norma's sister, who both testified for the prosecution. The trial was very high profile and dramatic. The transcripts are intense. But despite the prosecution's argument being full of reasonable doubt, the jury convicted Brandon of the murders. He was sentenced to life in prison without parole, and he remains there to this day.

In the fall, he'll be 34 years old. But a serious constitutional violation happened at Brandon's trial concerning his sixth amendment right, which states that citizens have the right to an attorney, a speedy trial, and an impartial jury. It is also illegal for any phone calls in jail between a defendant and their attorney to be recorded. Well guess what happened to Brandon?

That's right, the prosecution had all the calls between Brandon and his lawyer recorded and reviewed. They were fully aware of the defensive strategy and plan going into trial. Brandon's defense team later appealed the violation to the Texas Supreme Court and the United States Supreme Court. That there's no way to cure the taint because the prosecution is making notes about your trial strategy and even though the trial judge came back and tried to suppress all the evidence that was learned from these phone calls.

It's impossible to do because they're still learning trial strategy and they're still making notes and stuff like that. So that was Brandon's argument. And it went all the way to the United States Supreme Court and basically the Supreme Court only hears about 2% of the cases that are appealed to it and Brandon was part of the 98% where they just basically denied

to hear it. It's not that they denied his appeal. They didn't say anything about the merits of his case. They just would not hear it. Same thing as the Texas quarter criminal appeals. Brandon's aunt Carrie was subpoenaed for Brandon's trial, along with other members of the extended family. However, she was never called to testify.

Many family members who believed in Brandon's innocence were in the same boat. They wanted to be in the courtroom to support Brandon, but legally couldn't. After Brandon was convicted and taken away, all that carry remembers getting a call from him when they arrived home that evening. When they gave the sentence, we left. We went home and we got home. We got to drive, you know, two hours or so. We got to my mom's and he was able to call all that night. And he told me, why didn't you come? And we said, what do you mean?

And he said, they took me out of the courtroom and took me to a room and said, sit down and wait. Your family gets to come and talk to you before we take you away and no one never came. And then they came and said, I guess your family didn't want to talk to you. Let's go. And they never told us we had that opportunity.

There are so many questions regarding Brandon's case, whether you believe he's innocent or not, one thing's for sure. He most certainly deserves a new trial. One where eight out of the 12 jurors don't state that they believe being gay is a sin. One where his constitutional rights are not violated by the state, flagrantly, one where the normal process of coming out is not used against you as a reason for murder. I realized that, you know, the, the prosecution was not, yeah, they were not standing there with, you know, rainbow flags waving it behind Brandon, saying, hey, here's a gay guy, let's convict him. But what they did was, they used in their theory at trial that Brandon was basically a big fat liar because he was lying

about his sexuality. And they said several times, and even Ranger Collins in several the different interviews that he did, he made the statement several times, well if Brandon can lie about being gay, then he can lie about killing his parents. And they basically use this normal, completely normal coming out process that every gay person goes through to vilify him and make him out to be this big fat liar. We still had a few questions for Brandon,

just some things that we wanted to hear straight from the horse's mouth. So we asked for an interview and he said, sure, I have nothing to hide. This is a collect call from. Brandon, what's up? An ascender at Stiles' Unit. This call is being recorded and is subject to monitoring.

One of the prosecution's big arguments was that Brandon was hiding his gay life from his parents So the first thing we wanted to ask Brandon was about how he told his dad he was gay Well actually my dad had grossed the subject about me potentially being gay because I had actually told him one night I said hey, I'm gonna go to a Club one night and I was really going to a day club and I actually had told him a different club's name, you know, just being a teenager, not really knowing if I was, you know, for sure, day, for sure, straight, bisexual, so I kind of saved a little bit to him and told him a different club. Unbeknownst to me, the clubs name I gave him that was on the radio, that they were always ever coming with also a gay club.

So the next day he was like, you know that's a gay club, right? And I was like, well, yeah, I guess. I mean, there was a lot of straight people there too. And he was like, well, is your roommate gay? And I was kind of like, no, no. And he was, you know, looking at my earrings and stuff. And I was like, look, I, look at my earrings and stuff. I was like, look, I really don't know what's going on with my textuality at the time. He said, well, look, I love you no matter what.

Whenever you figure out, you can tell me or you can tell me, but it's not in my business. But at the same time, just always know I love you and just to be very safe and be very careful. He never wants to say that, no, you cannot be gay or I don't like gay people. He actually dealt with a lot of gay people dealing with his likes of Dali Parton. She's got a lot of gay LGBT community members in her fan club. So my dad was totally not against gay people at all. We asked Brandon about the porn, too. Did he do some scenes?

He said yes. He got scouted by a rep at station four, and the exhibitionist in him jumped at the opportunity. By the way, in case you're wondering, he won under the name Bradley Rivers. If you want to look it up, fellas. Or ladies. Hey, that's 2021. Bradley Rivers if you want to look it up fellas or ladies hey it's twenty twenty one and to be honest i just found it kind of intriguing it wasn't about

necessarily the money was even if it's early about you just been a special point i've been around point of the young age uh... when you might have found my father and mother's poor collection but i was just it was kind of like one of those things we'll let you see let this sound like fun I mean and some people are like that gross but it's a really wasn't what a lot of people think when you hear that we're born they're like oh they're immediately thinking the wrong things and it wasn't like that at all it was just more like an adventure.

And what was in that bag the weekend of the murders that he freaked out about when his friends tried to open it. Okay, so I was actually in Dallas with Robert Martinez. I had just met Robert Martinez. I think it is very relevant that everybody knows. I had just met Robert Martinez. So I had some porn tapes in my suitcase in the front, the part that I had been in. And there was also another date on the other inside flap of my suitcase.

And a lot of people would say, well, you know Robert went to the gate club. Would he be so sure that he could leave you a gate and that's just not the case? In fact, Robert's interview, he still said he really didn't know if I was there or not because I was dancing with girls. The last thing I wanted was somebody that I would... If it would have been Eric, my best friend, I don't think I would have freaked out that much. However, James and Alex both were drinking. Robert had drunk a little bit. They were throwing around my underwear already.

They were throwing around stocks. The last thing I wanted them to do was to get one of those porn tapes that started throwing around a big porn tape in the pickup truck a Robert B. like oh man brand of this weird and you go and tell all these abbling Christian universities to you. What about a sister charla? Have they reconciled since the trial? When people ask me things about my sisters always a difficult topic to broke because it's like on one hand hand, yes, she is my blood. On the second hand, I feel like I've done nothing to deserve some of the things that she

said about me or done about me. If the roles would have been reversed from day one, and an investigator would have told me, Brandon, your sister, brutally, not just murdered your parents, but brutally murdered your parents, I would have said to myself, show me the evidence, show me something, prove this to me. For about a year or two, you know how to ask for that. I would say, Charlo, you keep saying they have all this evidence, well what is it? And she would say, well, they can't tell me because the investigation is ongoing or they can't tell me because X, Y, Z had the role has been reversed. I would have said to them, no, you need to show this to me. This is my sister. You need to show this. You need to prove this to me. And I do

want to say that some people will feel a closure or they will latch onto the first thing said because they're going through something deeply, emotionally painful themselves. And so maybe she grabbed onto that. But at the same time, I would never have done that to her. I would never have said some of the awful things that she said. I would have celebrated sometimes that she has a meeting in prison and you know I just there's a lot of things I never would have done to my own sister and I ask myself all the time like why would she do this? You know occasionally I'll see a picture of her or somebody will make a comment of her and I'll just you know I'll really wonder deep deep down why I mean why would she do this?

Our relationship just really changed and I don't know if we'll ever be able to mean you know I've been locked up now for 15 years for something I did not do and it's just like you basically help them convey to me and then try to downplay everything since then and act like you've done nothing wrong. So it's easy to forgive but can I forget? I don't know. Brandon has been sitting in jail since he was 19 years old. He's grown from a boy into a 33 year old man behind bars. Surely in those 15 years he's had time to go over the events of October 2005 over and over and over. Is there anything he wished he would have done differently? If I could go back and train one thing and I know this might sound really morbid, but I've told people that I would actually have stayed at the House Sunday.

I don't know what reason I would have to stay. I don't know why I would have stayed at the house on the i don't know what reason i would have to say i don't know why i would have stayed but i mean again to speak what is if i would have known that all the sort of transpire you know sunday night monday or uh... because it would be really happy yes i might have been killed to but at least i would have known who it was i would have known what happened i mean

i do believe in afterlife uh... but sometimes i think that i would have passed away with my parents at least i would have been with my parents and i have a prison accused of killing brandon has one last shot at a new trial and it's a big one. Within a year, his legal team will be filing a writ of innocence and court, showcasing shocking

new information that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Brandon is not responsible for the murders of his parents. Until then, he remains in prison, on life, without parole, stripped of opportunities offenders with lighter sentences would have, like school or work programs. He tries to stay positive, but some days are harder than others. Support from his family, especially his grandmother, keeps him going. I think every person is different. I want to say that first. i think every person different i want to say that first i think every person

different i read newspaper articles and i and i can't be cases where people have gotten overturned uh... because i'm thinking okay will you know how to the my mind i'm thinking how do i have to prove i'm interested i'm trying to show the world i did not kill my parents of course i'm i'm thinking i know for a fact I didn't kill my parents, but actually they don't. You have another class.

You know, however, everybody gets out all the way, says, oh, I'm so happy, I'm not bitter, and I wish I could say that, but yes, I am a little bitter. Yes, I am a little bit like, yeah, I'm so completely let down by the whole, they always say, well, there's a system in place. Well, the system does not work. You know, the system does not work for me, and it has not worked for for my pills and it has, you look at the actual facts of the case and you can clearly see that I did not kill my parents. I did not kill my parents. I'd like to say we have a nice neat ending for you, but much

like life, this case can't be wrapped up all pretty with a bow. This case more than anything seems like a battle of competing stereotypes. The depraved, fruity, bleach-blown porn actor that kills his parents in an uncontrolled fit of homosexual rage. The mother, that wouldn't love him. The father, who was ashamed of him. Let's not forget that big sister of him, the father who was ashamed of him. Let's not forget that big sister of his, too. Dumb Hick cops capture, dumb Hick prosecutors charge, and a dumb Hick

jury convicts. It's almost as if this story was written for the pages of TMZ. Did Brandon actually kill his parents? Maybe. Is he completely innocent of the charges? Maybe. There was that life insurance policy which Brandon was the sole beneficiary of. Then again, he did pass two polygraphs and left no physical evidence behind, kind of hard to do for first time rage killing. Then again, it's not like his DNA wasn't all over that house. He had been there for dinner after all. Then again again, what was up with his friend Mike trying to explicitly blame Brandon during the police interrogation,

as if he had firsthand knowledge of what happened. Then again again, a neighbor did see Brandon at the house at 10pm. The victim's cars had been moved by the next day, and Brandon was driving his mother's truck, which several witnesses testified he wasn't allowed to use. Look, this is all very confusing, but the fact is a jury of his peers designated a title to Brandon, convicted murderer.

That's what he is now, whether you like it or not. But the Sixth Amendment violation where law enforcement listened in on his attorney client conversations should have been enough to revoke that title. But it wasn't. Not in Texas. Believe me, I wish I could wrap it all up for you. Pretty little ribbon, pretty little bow, maybe a nice card attached. But that's not life, and that's not the criminal justice system either. A system made by imperfect creatures and run by imperfect creatures, each of which, coming

to their own individual conclusions based largely upon their own bias. Those that come at this case initially believing someone like Brandon must be guilty because of who he is, and those who believe he must be innocent because of who he is. What do you think? Wherever you're listening to this, leave your comments and let's start a discussion because there's never devolved into vitriol-laden screaming matches, do you they? Ah, justice. What a tricky bitch. That's going to do it for this episode of Sword and Scale. We hope you've enjoyed it.

Thank you for joining us once again. Please join Plus at Sword and Scale.com slash plus and until next time, stay safe. Hey now! Thanks for all the great episodes tonight. I love the show called From New Hampshire. You are my drive to work, weight, and cheer. You make my work day easier. Keep up the good work. Hey, no! Mike, you got a great podcast.

Fuck Rogan, fuck Marin. I don't know if you have Marin in this family, too. But yeah, love it. Keep it up, man. Later. Wow, you can't even let people comment on your Facebook. Without deleting them and then blocking them, you And criticism. My God! Your penis has to be the smallest ever that you cannot accept criticism. Purpose that is baby. Oh, your show show was my U.P. News. Hey my, this is Kristen. I'm from Brevcena, Oklahoma. I just wanted to reach out and say that I freaking love your show.

I listened to it all the time, you know, I listened to them on the way to church, on the way we're nearing work wherever. You're doing such an amazing job, you and your staff, and I just really appreciate it. Please keep them coming. I literally cannot get enough of them. And I also love your commentary. Thank you on coming. I literally cannot get enough of them. And I also love your common hair. Thank you so much. Thank you! Hi my name is Sarah from Minnesota. I just wanted to call and tell you how much I absolutely love you and everything you do. When you went away,

it really, really sucked and I'm so glad you're back. Please don't leave again. Hey, get your head out of your ass. She's fucking prick. My second day, you are amazing. I have been listening to you for years. And I will continue to listen to you and I don't care what people think about the show for about you. You are awesome. You bring horrible truth to light and you do it in a way that is captivating and memorable, respectful, and yummy. It's funny. And I love your show. I continue to support you always and you're fucking awesome, dude. So keep it up, think. Hi, yeah, I'm the one who put you a pretty ugly message earlier. I apologize. I'm not asking you. I know you've already posted it on social media and that's fine. That's really my fault. What I am asking is that at the very beginning you do have my phone number flashing right before the message.

All I'm asking is if you just remove my phone number, you can keep my horrible message and let others comment on it. That's fine, that's completely my fault for saying that, but please, please, please remove my phone number. Okay, that's it. Again, it's my fault for calling and leaving. And I really miss you, which is what my phone number will be posted. Thank you.

You're precious. Thank you.