Sword and Scale - Episode 197

Episode Date: September 20, 2021

We all want what’s best for our kids, but sometimes we need to let our children make their own mistakes. After a lifetime of being told what to do, one family will learn that even the quietest people have their breaking points.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised She said you can call me a beast but don't call me monster Hello and welcome to season 8 episode 197 of Sword and Scale a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. You know, serial killer stories are a bit cheap to me, I feel like a yawn fest. I like the ones where you have no idea that this person could kill you. You could have never seen it coming.

It's the best ones. In any case, we have that coming up right here on Sword and Skill, just for you. Enjoy! Close your eyes. It's okay. Nobody's going gonna hurt you. Now picture a cold assack in a suburban neighborhood. Five single story houses are neatly situated next to each other, with tidy green lawns and cars parked in the driveways.

From the outside they seem the same, but we all know that inside of each home, a different story is taking place. Inside of one home on the night of August 20th, 2015, Elizabeth Rowe, a young girl with divorced parents, had just been dropped off at her mother's house. She had spent the day with her father, excitedly sitting through high school orientations, followed by a game of tennis and dinner at Panera. At this hour, Elizabeth's mother was out on her nightly walk, and so Elizabeth came home to her stepdad, who wanted to hear all about the day.

I just went to my room and I was showing a lot of a bunch of papers, like from all like my syllabus, from high school, and I was just showing them them. It was an exciting and wonderful moment, optimistically anticipating what high school and life ahead would hold. If you're lucky enough to be part of quiet, family scenes like this, you know how special they are, despite their simplicity. Never take moments like these for granted. Because you never know, the

hurt and pain that's happening right next door. Being as young as she was, Elizabeth I heard one and then a pause and then two more, then I heard a scream. I couldn't tell if it was a male or a female. Being as young as she was, Elizabeth likely couldn't grasp the gravity of what was happening just outside her own front door. But her stepdad Wesley immediately jumped into action. My stepdad was like, I don't know, I'd say, told him to go into a closet when she's in a closet, when she's on the office, and I the house, they far away from where we heard the things. His stepdaughter secured away. Wesley Rowe continued out into the living room of the house.

Hi, this is my 111-recent joke-law for this number. Do you have an emergency? Yes, I'm sound like Guncham, a south side of our house and I saw it on the screen in the front. Is there a lot or an apartment number? No, this is the house. And you heard Gunshots and screamies? It sounded like Gunshots. How many Gunshots did you hear? At least two or three. Did you hear anything else after that? After the shots?

I heard somebody screaming and it looked like somebody was in. Okay, did you tell if it was a male or female that was running? No, I couldn't see it. It's dark outside. Okay, do you know the mayor, male or female that was running? No, I couldn't see it, start outside. Okay, do you know if anyone was actually hit? I don't know, I didn't go outside. Once it go, did this happen? About to a story or four minutes ago. And did you hear anything else?

Like, people arguing, cars driving away fast? No. No. And you don't have a clothing description on the person you ran away? No, I guess so, somebody ran it outside. Okay. No. And you don't have a clothing description on the person you're in a way? No, I guess I'll simply run it outside. Okay. Are you willing to meet with the deputy?

Yeah, that's fine. After I hung out from the 911 call, I went out to a front of our house inside and we have some windows there. And I was looking outside the windows to see when the deputies of the sheriff's would arrive. So as I was looking out there, I saw something in my driveway, at the bottom of my driveway, and figure out what it was at first,

and I'm picturing what I was seeing because it was dark and there was some street light. And then I finally figured out what I was looking at were the shoes, and I couldn't understand what were the shoes here. And I understood that there what I was looking at were shoes, and I couldn't understand what were these shoes here. And I understood that there was also blue jeans, and I figured out that was a body, and that was facing towards the road.

When the police finally arrived on scene, young Elizabeth was glad that her stepdad Wesley had kept her in that closet. While he was probably annoying, as most stepdads seemed to their stepchildren, he had been responsible enough to act quickly and keep her safe. No one ever expects death to come so close to home,

and in this case, it was splaid out in their front driveway. An officer describes what happened next. When I first pulled in, the fence very dry, it's south end of it as a cul-de-sac. So I parked outside the cul-de-sac and immediately upon looking in the cul-de-sac I saw a white female, white female body laying in the driveway. There was nothing, no one moving, it was kind of eerie. As the officer approached the body, he observed a bullet casing near the victim's head, which was resting in the direction of the roadway. Her feet pointed toward the row household.

The officer attempted to feel for a pulse, and EMS were called to the scene. It was ultimately learned that the woman was shot directly in the stomach, as well as a second shot in the side, and a third shot through the ear, into the back of the neck, which proved to be fatal. As far as officers were concerned, this was still an active shooter situation, and so they began inspecting each property within the cul-de-sac, moving in a counter-clockwise motion to the house next door, immediately sensing something was off. The officer waved a couple of other deputies over and they began clearing each room of the house in search for the shooter, or God forbid, another victim.

As the deputies removed through the house, another deputy or a supervisor encountered a locked bedroom door towards the rear of the house. So at that point, we decided whether we had to be locked on the inside. So at that point, we decided whether we had to be locked on the inside. So at that point, we're thinking we might have a barricaded subject. At that point, one of the others who was on team used to be on the SWAT team for several years, so he began to take command of the situation. Though the officers continued to announce their presence with no response,

there was a thought that perhaps the assailant had barricaded themselves inside of this locked spare bedroom. Upon entry, there was no shooter to be found. Instead, covered with a blanket was a second body. One that had been there, rotting, somewhere between 24 and 36 hours. Detectives quickly learned from the neighbors that had called 911 that the two people living in the home were an older couple, Bob and Miriam Deans. It was Bob's corpse that had been found to King in the back bedroom, and it would soon be reunited with the body of his wife Miriam Deans, who had

just been murdered outside their home. In this early stage of the investigation, one of the first people that Detective spoke with was Eric Lear, brother to the female victim Miriam Deans. I can tell you, we've got two deceased individuals, there is foul plays, suspected. Your sister has been transported already to the medical examiner's office. Her body that is. The other one, the gentleman, still inside the house, and it's in the process of being transported there as well, where there will be an off-topsy done on each to determine the exact cause of man or death. Through tears, Eric explained to the detective that his sister Miriam was a captain in the Navy Reserve.

And while the core unit of their family was still close, he didn't have much contact with her or Bob, who was in fact Miriam's third husband. Now what they said early on when I first started talking to you is you said that you kind of thought that they had a volatile relationship. Was that very bad? Yes. Why would you say something like that? Because anytime we got together they would argue and they was not pretty. Mostly my sister was not very nice verbally. I don't know what went on behind closed doors, but I know that verbally she was not very nice person towards him. To the rest of the family

she was fine, but with him specifically, I just don't think she was happy with him. You know, he was the kind of person you could bully around and he would do whatever. But, you know, I didn't think they should be staying together. Eric also told the detectives about his niece Nicole daughter of Mariam from her second ex-husband. Nicole was 21 and currently enrolled at Florida State University. Though occasionally, she would stay with her mom and Bob, as well as spend some time with the extended family. Is that asking about your niece Becky?

You said that she was a little bit different? Yeah, I mean she's the... If you talked or if you meet her you would think that she looks like... I mean to me she just looks like she's battered. If you just met a battered woman that's what... You know she's not very well grown. I think has a lot to do with with with my sister. I think Mrs. Osniss more involved with herself as she was in guiding her daughter the right way and showing her how to dress and so.

Nicky's got a steam self-semission. Yeah, big time. Yeah. Detectives would want to speak with Nicole as well. But not before Eric could emphasize how helpless this entire situation with his murdered sister had felt. I don't know if there's a third party suspicion here, but my sister had very big problems with Nikki's real father. He was on the news a couple of times. He tried to kidnap her a couple of times,

and my sister just made it impossible for him to see her. So that that relationship never happened between Nicky and her real dad. And so I don't know I don't know I mean if anybody I would think he may be involved if something happened out of the family because he must have hated my sister for not being able to see his daughter. Now, did Nikki want to have a relationship with her father? My sister had my niece so brainwashed that she didn't know how to thank for herself. I think my niece was terrified of her mom in reality. just what could we do? There had been enough mentions of Nicole's odd behavior to make her a person of interest.

Even though this would have been the week that everyone was moving into their dorm rooms for the start of the fall semester. Hi, is this Nikki? Yes. Nikki, this is Detective Messer. I'm with the Sheriff's Office in Hillsborough County. I'm surprised actually that you answered, are you okay? I just got called from my uncle.

Okay, and I was just gonna tell you I called your spoke to your uncle and spoke to your grandmother and I wanted to make sure you're okay, obviously, but I guess your uncle told you what's happened. He told your mom's hospital? Well, she's not doing very well, but I needed to talk to you. He had said that you had been staying at your grandmother's house.

I guess so. I do that sometimes, but I'm in Tennessee. Oh, are you? I've been here for a lot of day or two or so. A day or two or so? Yeah, I have school. One is there Monday. I'll do you.

Okay. Well, anyway, I can meet you up there and talk to you. I'm on campus. I don't know the area that well on the campus. Okay. Well, do you know your address or where you're staying? And yes, I'm at the Smith building. I would have to Google the address for you. Do you mind recording back later in a second? Yeah, that's fine. Call me right back though. If you could because... Do you know it's possible to see that?

No, I don't actually. And are you on campus right now driving around or... Yeah, I'm on campus. Okay. I really need you to get to your dorm and sit tight and then call me back, okay? All right then. All right. I'll wait right for your call. I really need you to get to your dorm and sit tight and then call me back, okay? Okay. Alright, I'll wait right for your call. It will probably come as no surprise that Nicole did not call Detective Messer back right

away. Nor did she answer the phone when Messer attempted to call her back multiple times. But he was still in touch with Nicole's uncle Eric, and still unsure of whether or not Nicole was telling the truth. Nicole's uncle Eric agreed to place a controlled phone call to his niece during the conversation on the advice of Detective Messer. Yeah, because he he called me back and he said that your mom, you know, is is gone That apparently something happened to your mom and she's passed away Are you there Nikki? Nikki yeah, I'm sorry, but he's making this listen to me. Are you okay?

Yeah, he's making it sound to me. Are you okay? Yeah. He's making us sound like you were involved or something. I was here. Well, how long have you been there? About maybe a day. Oh, you didn't even... when's it like you told grandma? No, because mom was kind of mad at grandma. Well, when was the last time you were at your mom, so? I left, I left Lee on the,

while I left, I know I left really late on, I think the 19th or something. Hold on, let me see if grandma wants to talk to you. Hold on a second. Are you alone, Nikki? Well, I'm outside. I know, but are you alone? I think so, yeah. Okay, because the detective told me he thinks somebody hurt your mom intentionally.

Are you listening? Yeah, I mean, long does have... I don't know how long... Long doesn't get long... with, you know, it many people as you think. Well, who do you think would have a reason to hurt her? I don't know. She's always having problems with people at work, she said.

And then, I mean, the case with Bob, you know, they're always, they're always actually just grown and they're, are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. I don't know, I'm not, but... Alright, well, you just want to make sure that you call him because he needs to talk to you, Nikki. You know what I'm saying? I know, I know, I know, I called him up some lessons. Well, I don't want to believe it, you know what I'm saying? With so many questions still unanswered, Detective Messer was relieved when Nicole actually listened to her uncle and finally called him back to provide the address of her dorm. This address that you gave me is 78 Chiefton, that's where your dorm room is?

Yes. Okay, you're there now? Yes. Okay, are you not playing on going anywhere? No, I'm on campus for school. OK, like I said, I was going to fly up there. You know, probably take me a guess an hour and a half, two hours, or something like that. And then I'll meet you at your place, OK?

I don't know. Is it kind of... Is it kind of selfish if I ask you to leave? I'm sorry to say that again? Is it kind of selfish if I ask you to leave? Is it selfish if you ask what? If I can ask you if I can get something to eat? No, why would that be selfish?

I don't know, I don't know. You selfish? I don't know. You just know. I'm not doing it. Why? I mean, because of this matter, and now I have to go eat it to see if... I don't understand what you're saying. It just looks bad. Did you go get something to eat?

Yeah, it was going on. No, not really. I mean, it was looking bad to me when you weren't calling me back. You've heard the calls, and perhaps you could hear for yourself that Nicole Nockman was withholding information. But Detective Messer was also keeping his own knowledge close. Like the information he gathered from the soon to be high schooler we open today's show with. Young Elizabeth didn't know her neighbor's daughter Nicole, especially well.

When Detective Messer spoke with her earlier in that day, she didn't even remember her name, but she did recognize Nicole's face. And before she'd gone off to her high school orientation that afternoon, she heard the neighbors' dog barking and noticed Nicole exiting the side door of her neighbor's house. This, of course, directly contradicted Nicole's statements that she'd been a way at college for the very specific time period of a day or two or so. So while Detective Messer makes his way to Florida state and Nicole makes her way to get something to eat, I suggest you do the same. Go get some nuggies from Chick-fil-A.

Fill that belly. Don't worry, it's not selfish. Oh, don't forget that nug sauce, too. It's delicious. We'll be right back. At the end of summer, there's always a buzz on the Florida State University campus during that one week leading up to classes starting, especially if you're a freshman. Moving into a dorm room meeting new people, it can feel exciting. A little daunting, perhaps. And everyone handles it a little differently.

Well, I decided to go to FSU kinda late, and then they kinda put you in a lottery system if you're late and trying to get on campus housing. And so at the time, they didn't have a place for me to stay, but they did put me in overflow housing Which they kind of make like a make-shed room and when they're calming rooms or study rooms in their residence halls and at the time It was in the hall after getting her room key and checking out her temporary room assignment She noticed two sets of bunk beds and it was clear that another roommate had already unloaded some luggage Like many of the kids moving onto campus that day, Marie, the student you're hearing now, had parents and siblings to help check her in

for the next big chapter of her life. After trying to set up everything, make sure I got everything, and I was hanging out with my parents and my sister to kinda like go and get little things on me that we've forgotten for the move and get me food as well that same day. And when her parents left that Thursday, it must have finally felt real to be actually

on her own for the first time. It was that Friday morning that Marie and her other temporary roommate were joined by a third girl, Nicole Noctman. She said her dad was downstairs to help her because I was concerned because she was like she had a lot of her hand. Nicole's father was not downstairs. A preposterous lie considering Nicole's mother had prevented her from seeing her father since she was a little girl. And considering her mom and stepfather were about to be examined by the coroner's office, it's safe to say they weren't there to help her move in either. Like I said, she was kind of going back and forth and out of the room. She said to me that her mom was like recently in like a car accident of some sort,

um, I'm not exactly sure where it happened, but I assumed that it was like in her hometown. The girls didn't interact much, but at one point Nicole made a statement that Marie found a bit strange. While most students were busy preparing for classes, Nicole was preparing her alibi. And when detectives finally got Nicole seated in an interview room, they had a number of questions about what happened to her in the last 72 hours. I know pretty good.

I mean, I know, but that really pretty good. I mean, it's a normal response. Oh, a little bit tired. Did you drive all over? Yeah. Have you heard of something? Have I heard of the semblance? The story? As a second detective takes his seat,

Nicole launches into a rambling monologue about the classic Hans Christian Anderson fairy tale. The story of the book version is, um, these trolls, I'm here, I'm in the church, everything ugly, and then I try to bring up the heavens and it shatters, and I think I'm having a hard-earned eye and they only see you're both ugly. It goes on like this for several minutes. But if her captivating retelling of the story is not immediately familiar, perhaps this will ring a bell.

Sorry, parents, I'm sure you've heard enough of that one the last of lifetime. The Snow Queen, first published in 1844 in Denmark and written by the same author who brought us the ugly duckling, the princess and the pea, and the little mermaid among others, was eventually scooped up and adapted into another billion dollar Disney franchise, called Frozen. Like all Disney cartoons it's made for children, but 21-year-old Nicole Nockman still had a deep connection with Elsa, the misunderstood sister who needs to learn that only an act of true love will save the world or some shit like that. Considering she brings up the story within the first few moments of what will eventually

be a 10-hour long interview process, you might assume Nicole's awkward opening comments are the result of nerves, or to paint a picture of how she wants to be seen. But as another former college roommate of Nicole tells it, her obsession with escaping into a fantasy world of Disney had been going on for years. assessment as to die my hair by magazine. Coloring book first makeup of a Disney character, I just think that that was an age appropriate at that point. It was an ongoing obsession. I know that she received private sewing lessons to sober costume, the blue costume of Elsa, I know other sheet ordered specific shoes. I know it was around the title of Halloween, but it continued. There was literally Elsa, everything, pens, purrs, anything you could find Elsa in the

cool hat. Nicole had also dyed her hair in an attempt to look like Elsa, a winery platinum white. You might take offense to this, but there's got to be some correlation there between unnaturally colored hair and insanity. There's too many examples of it, for it not to be the case. But months later, seated across from detectives, her natural brown roots had grown out all the way to her ears, giving the effect of a brown helmet with a halo of dirty blonde hair running to her shoulders. Several minutes into the interview, she's still explaining the virtues of her favorite Disney princess with detectives

as they attempt desperately to get the interview back on track. While the detectives wait for her to say something, anything, eventually one of them gets up and exits the interrogation room. picks up right where she left off. Nicole begins describing another version of the snow queen, one that Nicole has reimagined through a world of her own animated drawings, as well as role-playing in online fanfiction communities. She's once again often running on an uninterrupted monologue, until the detective bluntly reminds her. You know your mom's dead right? I know. I know. I know.

And you know you slept there? I know. I heard. I just want to make sure that I'm not alone. I just try to start with something right now. It's the one I'm really. It's the one I'm really. I know well.

I mean, right now. We're trying to solve the case. I can't cry to everything else for now, yeah, I can't forget. The last few moments are hard to hear, but she says, I cried everything out for now. And over the course of the next six and a half hours, she does anything but cry. Dr. Kathleen Heidi, a professor of criminology

at the University of South Florida, who has written four books on adolescent homicide and has been involved in hundreds of scholarly publications, had multiple conversations with Nicole in the weeks and years that followed these events. Though Dr. Hyde unfortunately declined our interview requests for additional commentary on this case, her public sworn testimony offers an expert's analysis on Nicole's state of mind during her police questioning and beyond.

She's very completely at ease with this police officer. We get it, very pleasant, very nice. He listens to her and he'd think it was maybe like a grandfather she's talking to, which was a little kid rather than a 21-year-old talking to a detective. So she goes into all this detail about these characters and they sound like they're people that she knows. Then when the police officer, the detective, leaves the room and he does several times, She's left alone and her whole demeanor changes and you can see this is very apparent.

She now becomes anxious and she has a sweater on and she's kind of wrapping it around and you see her pacing, she gets on the floor, she gets purges on the chair, she can't sit still, very similar. And then she tells the police officer when he comes back, she gets purges on the chair, she gets in so much. And then she tells the police officer when he comes back, she's tired and she'd like to go to sleep. Police officer in the detectives says that's fine. He said, do you want me to leave? She said, no, you can stay.

Eventually Nicole drifts off to sleep, curled up on the floor with her head placed under the chair. She was once sitting in the detective scrolls through his phone, glances at his watch, jotting the occasional note, probably wondering what the fuck kind of weird interview this was turning out to be. When Nicole wakes back up, she tries to stump the detective with a word play riddle. And they talk for hours about pop culture topics ranging from thoughts on video games, like Grand Theft Auto, to subliminal messages in Disney cartoons, to Eminem's beef with the insane clown posse. Riveting stuff. It's worth versus like that. 10% worth, 20% skill, 10% concentration power will, 5% pleasure, 50% pain, 100% reason, revenue and pain.

Alright, that's enough Slim Shady. Seriously, there's 10 fucking hours of this. Well, between naps that is. Listening to all of it feels like being stuck in the middle seat on a cross-country flight while two strangers awkwardly get to know each other over small talk, never to meet again. It's clearly been an enjoyable conversation for Nicole, dissociative means she's not dealing with what's going on here. It's clearly been an enjoyable conversation for Nicole, who at one point chomps down on a banana, casually explaining how Tumblr fan fiction works. Of course she's on Tumblr. Did you think I could be welcome on computer? I'll check with her. Did you have a resume, human?

Yeah, I'm about to wait. Check my tumbler. Check that. Check under the following. Good news. Don't comfort. Again, she treats the interview like a conversation over Starbucks, not quite grasping what it means to be talking with the police about a double homicide.

Dr. Heidi goes on to state that when we grow up, if things go right, we develop internalized values. We start to do things because they're the right thing to do. And we stop lying because we don't want to deceive people we care about. But if you're still functioning now like that little child at 5, 6, or 7, and you're thinking is how to get out of trouble, you're functioning like a child. And that's the point I want to understand. When I met Nicole, she was at that level and as I reflected upon my encounters with her, and over the course of 30 years,

I had never seen a college student that was that impaired in terms of realizing what is expected of a college student and how to function. So that's her, the way she sees the world is so much more like a child than an adult and certainly not where we would expect somebody who's in college and who's 21 years old to be a noun 25.

The only college-age student in this story who acknowledges actually being friends with Nicole provided further insight into the many insecurities that Nicole was battling. A bunch of our friends, there's a huge gym at Florida State University. We would go workout or we would go swimming and all of us went to the pool one day and we asked Nicole to join us, but she refused too because she didn't like her image in a swimsuit. It was obvious that Nicole had body image issues. She regularly wore an old windbreaker jacket over jeans and a t-shirt.

The jacket in particular, she would wear every day, regardless of the weather, even in the sweltering humid Florida summers. It would become very smelly. Nicole's friend also observed Nicole wearing weights on her wrists while she worked out, occasionally running on the school's track at night. She said it to workouts to lose weight, her mother wanted her to lose weight. Nicole's mother wanted a lot of things for her daughter, and it wasn't up for debate. At one point, she made Nicole change her major from history to public relations.

Probably a good move, actually. She also forced her to participate in the school's ROTC program, also known as the Reserve Officers Training Corps. As each semester ended, it just meant time away from Nicole's one friend and back to being under her mother's supervision. We weren't really hanging out during the summers because she would be at home and I would be back in Tallahassee, but we were together again for the spring and fall semesters. I can tell that she did not want to go back home and fear of her mom.

Again, here's Dr. Kathleen Hyde. Nicole couldn't stand up to her mom and And the reason, again, these are her perceptions, but they're based on the interactions with the mom. She felt defeated, that's my word, but she felt like she couldn't stand up, that the safest thing for her was simply to do what her mom said. So she's not growing up anymore, she's not questioning, she's not thinking. But she learned basically to follow the rules and don't make waves, you're gonna get buying. Is she thinking much more about it? After six and a half hours of stalling and waiting for an attorney who never shows up,

the same detective who was so kind and Nicole reenters the room with a somber reality. I don't want a question here, how do you get in the eye? I don't know, respect your wishes. Obviously, I don't want to talk to anyone else. Sorry. You know what I had? I don't know what was going on in houses, but I wish you could have got help. If we had this, something like this. You know? So.

Come in here. very intelligent young lady and you hold on to her. Sorry for that. Okay. Forward, forward. Okay, I mean that. By now Nicole has the hood of her gray sweatshirt pulled over her head and her knees are tucked up to her chest making her as small as possible. The detective stands up to exit but is compelled to sit back down. Nicole drops her head down as the detective offers her water and lets her pace and sleep

for another four more hours until eventually an officer enters with handcuffs to process her. Before Nicole leaves the room, she gestures towards the papers she's been sketching on, which the officer picks up. What exactly had Nicole's brother told authorities? And what had driven Nicole clearly a strange but very sweet girl to commit such a horrifying crime against her own family. Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction. A week before she was murdered, Miriam walked into her daughter Nicole's room to find her surrounded by sleeping pills, and holding a gun. In this vulnerable moment, Miriam was straightforward with her daughter, asking a larger question that probably should have been asked many years earlier.

Do I need to get you help?" Nicole responded, No. Miriam, a military officer, and in almost every conceivable way, the complete opposite of her daughter, leaned forward, taking the gun from Nicole's hand, and began to teach her how to shoot it. Miriam, Nicole's mother, was raised in a house with five brothers, who she always tried to keep up with. Their father was in the military, serving overseas in Vietnam, and many of her siblings,

including the outgoing Miriam, followed suit. And like all who serve in our armed forces, Miriam understood that becoming the best you can be meant learning to thrive in a culture of discipline and self-respect. Her daughter Nicole, on the other hand, was merging herself identity with a world of Disney, anime, and online role-playing.

Not exactly a lot to bond over. Despite the fact that Nicole's parents were locked in a truly miserable custody battle over her when Nicole was very young, she loved the laugh and sing and dance in front of strangers, like any other little girl. But all of that changed around middle school. And ever since then, anecdotally at least, she had always seemed a bit odd. Elizabeth Rowe, who hid in the closet while her stepdad called 911 on the night of the murder, recalled many years earlier being forced to trick or treat with her neighbor Nicole, and

being baffled that Nicole was asking for vegetables instead of candy. What a weird little girl. Nicole's uncle Eric, whose controlled phone call helped lead to her arrest, had many stories from over the years as he watched his niece slide into a pessimistic depression. While she had at one point been interested in hair and makeup, she was now talking to herself when she thought no one was looking. And she seemed to be in constant fear of how her own mother would react to anything she

did outside her presence. Well, everything she confided in me started with, please don't tell my mom and end it with please don't tell my mom and end it with, please don't tell my mom. It was a tone of fear that my sister was going to find out. She was sound-discard. It wasn't like a joking, happy comments. These are, please, don't tell my mom.

By Nicole's 20th birthday, a lifetime of strict control had taken a toll on her. While the claims that follow come directly from Nicole, and thus cannot be corroborated, the intensity in which she relived these moments, convinced doctors that they were real experiences. She recalled an incident in the third grade, when she didn't know the answer to a question, and her mom became explosively angry. In 10th grade, she says Miriam slammed her head on the table because she was writing cursive poorly. A year later, Miriam kicked her and told her she walked like a man. There are other stories of

having her hair grabbed, her mom digging her nails into her and throwing plates at her. And then there were the two forced liposuction surgeries. In preparation for high school graduation, Nicole had picked out a dress, and in response, Miriam allegedly called her an overweight skank. While Nicole was 5'2", and her weight did fluctuate around 130 pounds, she did not want to have liposuction surgery. But like always, she did what her mother told her. The psychological abuse and belittling continued into her young adulthood. Nicole was also forced to have her teeth whitened,

and when her mom wanted her to get lay sick surgery, that seemed to be the final straw. Nicole was absolutely terrified of the procedure, to which her mom apparently called her a fucking ungrateful bitch, and scheduled the appointment for August 17th, 2015. Just three days later, Miriam and her husband Bob would be found shot dead in their own home.

There is one more piece needed to fully understand this story, and it comes in the form of Nicole Nockman's brother. Well, half brother actually. While Nicole and her brother Joseph shared the same mother, Joseph is Miriam's son from her first marriage, while Nicole is her child from her second marriage. Joseph is roughly 12 years older than Nicole and lived with Nicole the first four years of her life. Tragically and not directly related to this story, Joseph's biological father committed suicide just a few months before these events.

Just something to keep in your mind as you hear this poor guy explain how his life was further turned upside down in the early morning of August 21st, 2015. I was coming off of midships, which is 12 hour shifts. We do it in my job where it's like 6.30 pm to 6.30 am. And I got out around 6.30 am and got to my car in a cell. Missed phone calls and text messages.

And I called back and it was my own lyric. And he was crying and he told me that I thought it was my grandma immediately because he lives in the same area and she's older. So I thought maybe something happened with my grandma and then he was crying and he said, no, it's your mom. And that's what I found out. Joseph had his own dysfunctional relationship with his domineering mother Miriam. At one point, he had actually run away from the house,

claiming to his uncle Eric that his mom was abusive and had one time keyed his arm as in taking a car key and tearing it across his skin. Like many of his relatives, including his mother, Joseph eventually joined the military, more specifically the Air Force in 2001 and went on to work for Norrad Weapons Tactics in Washington State. While he had stayed close with some of his extended family, he was living on the opposite

side of the country when he received the confusing call informing him that both his mother and her third husband Bob were murdered in their home. The understanding was that it was a murder suicide that Bob had killed my mom and was found with a gun in his hand in his chair and he had killed himself. I asked mom, called my sister and let her know, and they said that they told her that she had been an accident, and we didn't know her status, because we didn't want her driving from Tallahassee to Tampo knowing that her mom died. We were worried of her driving condition. So I called my sister to let her know that we all love you.

Don't worry about it, just get the Tampo and we'll figure things out. After they hung up, Joseph began making arrangements to fly from Washington state to Florida. Shortly after, Nicole called him back, but Joseph was busy concentrating on booking his flights and didn't want to blow her off. He asked to call her back, and when they spoke again, the conversation took a horrifying turn. You know, I started off with a normal chit chat. You know, I love you. We'll see you soon. And then she just was quiet for a second. And then she said, I'm going to miss you Joey. I didn't know what she meant the first time she said it.

I don't think I made sense of it just yet. And I said, what, you know, something like, say it again or what. She's like, I'm just going to miss you. And I said, what do you mean? And then at this point, saying it a lot sounds weird, but I was thinking maybe she was thinking of hurting herself because she's, her mom's gone. So, but I didn't want to put words in her mouth. And I was like, what do you mean?

I was like, I want to say, I said, do you think, are you hurting yourself now at this point? She said, no, I don't think I'd do that. And I said, so what do you mean by that? And then she got quiet again. And then she says, I shot him. I said, you did what? I shot him.

I shot him on Bob. I said, I remember leaning forward. I remember leaning forward in the couch and saying it again. I said, what do you mean you shot him on Bob? I said, why did you do that? Something to that effect? Nicole then revealed to her brother just how far her mental state had declined as it pertained to her relationship with their mother.

Sure, Miriam had always seemed to provide her kids with the physical items they craved, like, for instance, a second laptop for Nicole to use for her gaming. But Miriam had also arranged for Nicole to use for her gaming. But Miriam had also arranged for Nicole to spend a semester studying abroad in London, which is surely something any young adult would be thrilled to experience. But Miriam had failed to provide Nicole with any actual life skills. And when Nicole returned from her trip overseas, the impossible task of getting her mother's approval once again took over her life. in her head and like a hypid screening and that it was affecting her sleep and she was

having nightmares from it. And then I tried to calm her down some more and then she said, if I had only gotten a good news phone call about the storms earlier, if I only got the good news phone call about the storms earlier, I wouldn't have had to do it. And I didn't know what she meant by that. I didn't know anything about the storms situation. I didn't know what she meant by that. I didn't know anything about the dorm situation. I didn't know what she was meaning by that. And then she said something that I remember was,

I'm sorry I had to do it, but I'm not sorry that I did it, but I'm sorry I had to do it. And then she was more crying, things like that. And then I remember thinking to myself, well, I don't know what to do now. So I'm going to call my family and have them help me think correctly about this.

And then she went to like a whisper and she was like, I didn't think I could do it to anything, I could do a better shot. Oh, I didn't think I could do it. And it was just weird because it was in a whisper and almost sound like she was proud of herself. As you just heard, Nicole told her brother, quote, If only I'd gotten the good news phone call about the dorm rooms earlier, I wouldn't have had to do it.

End quote. You may recall that before her arrest, Nicole had a brief but strange interaction with her roommate assignment as part of the Florida State University temporary overflow housing program. Nicole had a long history of getting overwhelmed and shutting down, and so it should come as no shock to hear that Nicole had forgotten to secure her dorm room for the following school semester. By July of 2015, she was already seven months past the administrative deadline. Knowing her mother was prone to explosive outbursts when she was trying her best,

Nicole began to fear what the repercussions might be after she had genuinely messed things up. Surely her mother would be furious when she found out Nicole had screwed up and would now be enrolled but would know where to stay. From there, it was only a matter of time before her mother would find out that lately she'd been performing poorly in classes, and had even gone as far as to Photoshop her grades. And certainly Bob, Miriam's third husband and Nicole's stepfather, would take her mother's side. In this moment, Nicole felt she had three options.

She could kill herself, she could wait for her mother to kill her, or she could kill her mother to kill her, or she could kill her mother. On August 18th, 2015, Mariam left for Jacksonville on assignment with the Navy. Nicole should have been moving into Florida State at this time, but as we now know, she had not submitted any paperwork. With Mariam out of town, her husband Bob went shopping at a local publics, which was the last time he was seen alive. During this time, Nicole gained

access to one of the handguns in the house and waited for Bob to return. It was ultimately learned that Bob was shot in the back of the head with his own gun in his own kitchen. Afterward, Nicole had dragged his body into the spare bedroom, covered him with blanket, and proceeded to clean up the crime scene. Nicole later claimed she felt there was some sort of divine intervention during her violent act, a loud boom of thunder perfectly timed with the gunshot so that no one heard it happened.

But another form of divine intervention came the following morning. On August 19th the day after Nicole shot her stepdad, she received the good news email. Florida State had an overflow housing program for late transfers and other students who may have missed the deadline. Nicole was officially approved for on-campus housing. She described after she shot bomb that a lot of the screaming went away and her head didn't go away all the way but it went away a lot and then she described she went up to her dorm and she was hanging out in the dorm and she kept seeing the signs in her hallway and her stairwell saying you know you know dreams are almost realized keep going things like that like motivational

posters and she took that as a sign from God to go back and finish the job. You know those motivational cat posters saying hang in there? Yeah, they got someone killed. God sure does work in mysterious ways. Nicole could have turned herself in at this point, but instead, she chose to leave the college campus, park her car several blocks from her mother's house and lay in wait until Miriam returned from her military assignment. So then she told me she went back to Tampa and she waited in the house overnight from my mom and then when my mom got home she said that she got a cool feat the last second she

wanted to get out of the house so she missed time that she jumped out of the window to not meet my mom. So my mom was walking in the house and she wanted to jump out of the window just time it to where she would miss her. And she missed time to rent it at my mom. And she said, my mom said, Nicky, what the fuck are you doing here? And she said she blacked out. And somehow she knows she did it. Nicole says she believed God was once again helping her carry out her task. The rain had stopped and the clouds had parted just as Nicole pulled the trigger. And later, as she walked back to her car, police had zoomed right past her without stopping.

She said you can call me at least but don't call me a monster. I just remember saying, like, why did you have to do that? You had options. You could have called your uncle. You could have called your grandma. You could have called me Why did you have to do that? And I don't know what she said. She just kept crying. I'm sorry Then I hung up and Called my family back to find out then I hung up and called my family back to find out.

I'm like, are we angry at her? Are we trying to help her? Would it be help me think straight? What do I do? When Joseph was approached by detectives, he wanted to plea the fifth and protect his half-sister. But authorities convinced him that telling them everything his sister had told him was the right thing to do. Once again, here are the excerpts from the testimony provided by Dr. Kathleen Heidi,

who had multiple conversations from the Cole behind bars and literally wrote the book, four books actually, about why kids kill their parents. She believes that Nicole had suffered from battered child syndrome and that a combination of, among other things, family violence, isolation, inability to cope and eluciting grasp on reality all played a part in the tragedy. But just as troubling, Dr. Heidi felt that Nicole was delusional even after these events. Saying enough to understand the charges against her, but still suffering from a childlike inability to understand the consequences of her actions.

More specifically, Nicole had told Dr. Heidi what she felt could happen to her as a result of her case. She described four possible scenarios and accepted that these would likely be the punishments for murdering two people. to be banished from the state of Florida. Three, to give her earnings for a certain number of years, to be determined to the charity of the jurors' choice, or four, to keep a journal of her behavior while living out of state for a certain number of

years to be determined so the court can see that she is quote a good kid, unquote, and eventually released her from supervision so that she can do good for others. And then she also stated two or three times that she did not want any of her mother's money and her brother could have it all. Following her arrest, Joseph went to visit Nicole in prison, but rather than being solemnly greeted by the depressed and anxious person he had witnessed his sister become, he was instead confused to be chatting with a smiling and giddy young woman who seemed to actually be thriving behind bars. Okay.

How are you doing? Pretty good. Are you? Are you? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I am being, I'm being somewhat healthy. I mean, three times a day, I like, I have no problems looking in the mirror.

I actually weighed myself and I wasn't even scared. I, you know, I know problems looking in the mirror and stuff. And I've been able, and my husband clear and, you know, I know problems with me and the mirror and stuff and I've been able and my husband clear and, you know, no stress, no anxiety. I've been able to sleep better. No stress, no anxiety. I mean, why would you? You're only, oh yeah, in prison.

When Nicole asks him about his own wife and kids, it's clear there are no hard feelings for her brother telling detectives everything she had told him. Joseph, on the other hand, is uncomfortably reserved and reasonably so. It must have been strange to look his mother's killer in the eyes and see just how relieved she was to finally have her out of their lives. cute. Yeah. Is he is he is he is he is he is he is he is he the age-reason to superheroes right now? No, he doesn't quite understand him yet. He's still watching like regular cartoon. He likes movies where there's action scenes like neutrals, but he doesn't quite understand. I know my

favorite superhero. You is it? You. The witcherl's like savior comes close. There's an odd bittersweet quality to this recorded interview. There's a sense that Nicole doesn't really grasp the seriousness of her situation, which could have larger implications when considering her sentence. But then, there's also a clear sense of relief, both mentally and physically, from the torment she endured without being able to express herself properly. And even though she killed her mom and stepdad,

you kind of can't help but feel a little bit bad for her. I know this is weird, I just feel so much better, and I'm really glad you were able to make it talk for me for a few minutes. Yeah, I have to leave tomorrow. And this would be like the last, I was hoping to be able to see at least once, or allow to make sure to check on you. I just kept thinking that, you know, once I get out here, you know, get a job and get you guys some gifts, get you something nice, maybe maybe a lot I want to get out here, you know, get a job and yeah, and get you guys some gifts. Get you something nice maybe Maybe I might a lot I want to No, I understand but you know Don't worry, but don't don't talk about the case or anything. Right. I'm not I'm just saying I asked her if I can talk about like you know

after everything Nicole had always seen herself as a rule follower, a very polite and nice girl. And even though her mother could never seem to love her for who she truly was, it's clear that Nicole was surrounded by other family members who cared. Once he only wished, they understood sooner how close Nicole was to her breaking point. Nicole was ultimately found guilty of two counts of first degree murder. And while she had fantasies of getting a job and getting everyone gifts, Nicole was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Like the Snow Queen, she once idolized, Nicole

forced her family into an eternal winter and was banished as a result. In the Disney cartoon, Elsa is seen as a villain, but she's ultimately redeemed and everyone lives happily ever after. But while Nicole may see herself as a Disney princess with a wicked mother, her fate is more closely aligned to the ending of a much darker Hans Christian Anderson fairy tale. It reads, in part, vast, cold and empty with the halls of the snow queen. In the middle of the endless hall of snow was a frozen lake that was cracked in a thousand pieces, but each piece was so like the other that it seemed the work of a cunning artificer.

In the middle of this lake sat the snow queen. She said she was sitting in the mirror of understanding. The frozen lake mirror represents the destruction of youthful innocence. And as the Snow Queen departs, the young heroes of the story attempt to find meaning, and the fractured remains she has left behind. With the Snow Queen nowhere to be seen, the heroes ultimately return home and embrace the warmth of summer. That's going to do it for this episode of Sword and Scale. We hope you've had a good time.

If so, tell your friends about it. Go leave us a nice review. And join Plus. It's only five bucks a month. Sorenscale.com slash plus, stay safe. Hi, Mike today. I just wanted to call and let you know that your podcast is absolutely fucking to jump your part of hot garbage. And I know, just kidding. This is Haley for example, just so I think your podcast is awesome. Sorry for this point you. You did a great job and even though it is horrific and terrifying, I feel safer. I definitely look at everybody who comes into the store

I work at sideways. How about we, how about we check it out? I'll pick their hand right now if they're gonna murder me. It's tight. Keep doing you, Bill. Bye-bye.拜拜 1.0-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1-1.5-1.5-1.5- Thank you. you