Sword and Scale - Episode 198

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

In October of 2014, 53-year-old Chris Regan was reported missing in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. The investigation that followed spanned many years across numerous states, resulting in an extraordinary game of cat and mouse between a veteran detective and a potential serial killer. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Can you imagine how it is to drown on your own floods? Hello, and welcome to Season 8 Episode 198 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Man, it's been a really tough year. That don't mean a bitch, but you know, I think everybody's experiencing that. Anyway, we got a little bit more to go here. We got a power through and keep giving you weekly episodes until the end of the year, because that's what we promised and that's what we're going to do. No matter what happens.

But I'll tell you what, you can do something too, if you feel so inclined. And that's to tell your friends about us. There's a lot of you that have joined up and just started listening with them last year. We know who you are. We see you right now.

Put down that chicken nuggie and tell your friends about us right now. Alright, let's get to the show. Do you ever think of life like it's a game? You're assigned a random character at birth, and everything you do changes of the game progresses. If life is a game, we don't all play the same way. In fact, some of us aren't even really playing at all. Some of us are NPCs, non-player characters, and we don't even know it,

allowing the actions of the game's real protagonist affect our own, and just going along for the ride. If you're one of these so-called NPCs, then it's nerve-wracking to think that if you make one wrong step, your particular role in this game of life is over. Michigan's upper peninsula is a solitary place. The UP is double the size of New Jersey, with less than a third of the population.

The winners are long and temperatures drop far below zero. For most of the year, residents have as little as eight hours of sunlight a day, and what is considered the snowiest place east of the Rockies. On October 27, 2014, a woman walked into the Upper Peninsula's Iron River Police Station late one night. The only officer on duty that night was police chief Laura Frizzo. Jerry came in and was concerned about her friend, Chris Reagan, who she hadn't seen in a while, had he heard from him in a while.

Prior to coming in to make a report, she had done some investigating on her own and found that his car was parked out at the parking light, which was highly unusual for him, as she says he would never leave that car there. The woman was there to report her ex-boyfriend missing, 53-year-old Chris Regan. Chris was a retired master sergeant out of the Air Force who moved to Iron River a year earlier and started a job at a manufacturing company. Chris was highly sought after because he was a natural leader and presented himself exceptionally

respectfully. Regan was an anti-social outdoorsman, and until his knee gave out, he spent his time hiking alone. According to his ex, Chris was excited because he accepted a job in North Carolina, which would allow him to spend more time with his two adult sons. A search of Chris's car revealed nothing out of the ordinary. Just his knee brace and handwritten directions to a random address. So in trying to figure out who Chris could pass the week be with or who might know where he could be located, I talked to his boss at his workplace and she told me about another quarter of his that there were rumors speculation that they were

having affair. So she mentioned the name Kelly Cochran to me. 32-year-old Kelly Cochran was an electrical assembler that worked with Chris. Kelly was a hard worker, which was good because she had no other choice. She and her husband were drowning in medical debt, and Kelly was their only source of income. Kelly was known as the type of person who shoveled old ladies' driveways in the winter, and would smoke a joint with the guys outside the local watering hole. When Chief Frizzo ordered officers out to Kelly's house for an interview, she noticed something that wasn't coincidental.

The directions found in Chris' car were to 66 Lawrence Street, which was only 7 minutes outside of Iron River and happened to be Kelly's address. When the officers arrived at the Cochrane's, a large bald man answered the door. That man was Kelly's husband, 37-year-old Jason Cochrane, and he looked angry. Jason demanded to know why the police were bothering him and told him Kelly wasn't home. Moments later, Kelly walked past him out of the house. Kelly's disregard for her husband's lie wasn't an accident, either. It was a power move, as if she was telling her husband not to lie for her. Kelly admitted to the officers that she knew

Chris, but denied knowing anything about his disappearance. Chief Frizzo wanted to look deeper into Kelly and Chris' relationship, so she requested Chris' phone records. Those records showed that Kelly and Jason were the last people to speak with Chris, so Chief Frizzo brought them in for an interview. So you and Kelly have been very influenced? Well, we just crossed 12 years since September. I get the initial year wrong for time at time for a photo-iso 2. We grew up next door neighbors of another never-life.

In the time that you have been married, have there ever been any issues of infidelity? Yes. Okay, can you explain? Well, the last few months we've kind of been separated. I've been on the couch in the living room for a couple of months. Things have been going bad for kind of a long time. How long? I don't know, almost two or three years since my body started getting me trouble. Jason's body had gone to hell in a handbasket, causing his sex life to fall apart. He had a history of cancer and kidney problems on top of having spinal issues because of his

enormous size. Jason's health problems also left him unable to work, which resulted in him being home alone all day, loathing. I don't know, I blame myself for most of everything. I'm really hard on myself when I can't get up and do things, when I can't go out. I don't know, I was to put it when my back hurts bad, I can't even have sex. You know, I can't even take care of myself from my back's bad. I'm very hard on a person.

I went in, and it's when I was hospitalized in September because I wanted to kill myself. I was having trouble dealing with going to be alone with that problem since I did. If Jason weren't a suspect in Chris' disappearance, he'd feel bad for him. Jason had no friends, no job, and was so upset that his wife was having an affair that he checked himself into a mental institution to prevent suicide.

Jason went on to tell Frizzo that after he came home from his hospitalization, his wife was still out having sex with other men up to five nights a week, and Kelly often used his phone to text them. Talk about adding insult to injury. Jason described his situation as being stuck between a rock and a hard place, no pun intended. He had no choice but to allow Kelly to sleep with Chris, because if he didn't, she would have divorced him, and he didn't, she would have divorced him, and he didn't want to lose her.

How fucking sad. Did she ever talk to you about Chris missing? We've talked very little about it. I didn't really want to hear about it. I figured that he would have came home by now and would have all been behind us. So yeah, I didn't want to hear about if she or extra-quick activities at all. Common sense would tell you that Jason could have killed Chris out of jealousy or anger, but he didn't seem quite capable of it.

I heard that he would be cooperative to a polygraph exam. Oh, no, I actually don't want to take a polygraph exam. Okay, did that change? the graphic exam? No, I actually don't want to take a polygraph exam. Okay, did that change? You know, when I thought about it, you know, I was like, why do I need to take a polygraph exam? So it's not something that I want to do. Well, to be honest with you, Jason, you know,

the last context that Chris has on his phone were your wife and your father. So it might be beneficial to you to be eliminated at the impossibility of knowing what happened at Chris. I don't think this time, it's still not comfortable to say it in the polygraphs, that's true. After Frisso finished interviewing Jason, she talked to Kelly, who was far less willing to speak.

Kelly claimed that she had dinner with Chris the night of October 14th, and by the 15th he was gone. Having interviewed her husband moments earlier, Frizzo couldn't help but ask Kelly how she could cheat on Jason after he almost killed himself because of it. How did you not feel guilty for leaving him and going to be with other men once he back home from there. Those were relationships that I had already had. I well-cressed.

I mean, you know, I ended up telling him more of the details after, well, with all of this, he didn't know the extent of the relationship. Who didn't know? Jason, and he told him, I told him that we were intimate, more intimate than I'm sure he ever imagined. Kelly Lecker, husband, refused to take a polygraph. Surprising side note here is that polygraphs don't matter that much.

OJ Simpson failed his miserably, and he's out living in a gated community on a golf course somewhere. Check out his Twitter world channel, it's hysterical. Upon examining Kelly's phone, Frizzo learned that she was sleeping with half the men in Iron River, and would often meet those men at the same parking lot where they found Chris's car. Convinced that the Cochrons were responsible for Chris' disappearance, Frizzo called in help from the Michigan State Police.

However, after reviewing the evidence, the state police came up with a different theory. Yeah, I mean, the detectives that came in to help me out, definitely disagreed with my theory and uh... really looked at other things as being you know stressing did he have financial problems did he have a drug problem did he have

you know whatever issues going on where he just wanted to disappear intentionally. So even though I strongly disagree with that, we did still, you know, explore that somewhat as far as pretty ev'locked up in the woods or, you know, something that harmed himself. So there was a time where we searched heavily in those initial days to make sure that he wasn't found or wasn't laying dead somewhere within a certain radius of his car. Friszo pushed the state police to look deeper into the Cochrane's involvement when the

search came up empty handed and they complied. Just you guys coming here of me, this is a nightmare. Yeah, you know, and I'm a follow-up guy because I't want to make it a nightmare for it because you've been helping us out And I seriously I appreciate that. I know but it is bullshit because we moved here so I have a good life And you guys have done nothing cause problems for us here Okay, well, I mean my neighbor won't even fucking talk to me because we have the cops here all the time We're good people.

We smoke hot once in a while. We don't care about that. Well, and even if you do, I'm not out. I know, I'm not a druggy. I don't hurt people. I mean, I've never done anything bad. He's never done anything bad. Neither one of us has been in trouble.

And to have you guys here all the time to hear all these horrible things about us, I'm done with it. I'm so fed up. If it was up to me, I would move in a heartbeat because of the way these people have treated us. The Cochranes were great at making law enforcement feel bad for them. The State Trooper told Kelly that everyone would leave them alone if she would just take the lie detector test. If you guys want a polygraph, I will ask a lawyer if they think that's suggestible. if she would just take the story. Okay. That's just quite adding up. Alright.

So the easiest way to move on, to move away from you and Jason is your apolograp. That's the easiest way. Alright. I'll show you the questions. I'll show you the questions. Okay. Can I just read you the questions? Here's the three questions. Did you participate in Chris's disappearance?

Did you physically participate in Chris's disappearance? Did you take part in Chris's disappearance? Did you take part in Chris's disappearance? And I told you guys to know. Before leaving Kelly caught the troopers off guard and demanded her phone back, using a legal term that no layperson should ever know. Here's actually one question for you. So I figured you had to have had some dealings with law enforcement, prosecutors, the courts, or something along that lines because you know what a writ is.

How did you know what a writ was? Oh, did you? Oh. Well, I asked some questions to a family member and I also looked it up. Oh, a book. Then this was about getting your phone back? Yeah, because I remember, because you asked, why am I going to get my phone back?

And then it was, or do I need to obtain a book? Yeah. And so then that, I mean, I once at college, I had classes. I mean, I've learned a lot over the years. And like I said, I have a lot of family. I mean, in law enforcement, like I said, I mean, in the courts, I mean.

Yeah. All right, because that one word, that kind of struck me, I mean, in the courts, I mean. All right, because that one word, that kind of struck me, because that was the first time in 22 years that somebody's ever mentioned that to me. Yeah, but I know what it is, I mean. Yeah. Chief Frizzo wasn't happy with the state's investigation. I decided to perform a search warrant at Kelly's home. During the search, Frizzo asked Kelly and her husband to stay at a neighbor's house. The search took 10 hours, and the crime scene investigators confiscated multiple weapons

and found cleaned blood all over the place. The investigators also found the outline of a book written by Jason. The book was titled, Where Monsters Hide. And Jason was the main character, the protagonist, if you will. The book described many types of monsters including the main character who was a killer. Written on the front page of the book were the words, if you're not invited, you're not welcome, then you're at your own risk. To everyone's surprise, said sarcastically, on the day after the search, the Cochrons were

gone. To see if Kelly or Jason mentioned where they might have fled to, Friszo interviewed their neighbors. The neighbors didn't know where the Cochrons went, but they had some concerning information. On the night Chris went missing, they heard power tools running all night long. And I asked Jason, are you doing work on your house? And he's like, yeah, what kind of tool are you talking about? It's just a saw. So I was all on the skill stuff. As you can imagine, Frizzo feared that power tools at three in the morning only meant

one thing. Kelly and Jason had indeed killed Chris and then dismembered him inside their home. However, her fears were only going to get worse. Neighbors claimed that after the sawing concluded, the Cochran invited them over for a feast. Like they had so much meat, you know, so much meat. It's like my modeling on which meat they had they made Cabbos, they made tacos, or pizza, so we were always like when we found out the guy was gone we ate Doob Cabbos So we were always wondering about that. What if they were that kind of people who actually did kill a guy and then bunched him up and had us over for dinner within a week, three different knives, dogs, food, and the dogs were just a warm at all of us.

Like the bellies were hanging right down to the ground, like they made me wonder. You have to love young men, not in that way, Sikko. The neighbors believed they ate a human being and described it as, dude, cabobs. Dude, cabobs. I've been doing this too long. At that point, Frizzo's swore to track the Cochran's down. Frizzo's reach was minimal, with only a small town budget. So she brought in the big guts, the FBI. 153-year-old Chris Regan was reported missing. The investigation into his disappearance led law enforcement to Kelly and Jason Cochran.

The investigators discovered that the Cochran were the last couple to contact Chris, and a search of their house revealed evidence that they may have murdered him. However, when police chief Laura Frizzo started breathing down the Cochran's necks, they fled the state of Michigan. The feds quickly tracked the Cochran's down to Indiana, but they couldn't arrest them, because the blood they found in their house could not be positively matched to Chris's DNA. The FBI worked on the case for an entire year, searched the Cochrane's house multiple times,

reviewed the evidence, interviewed family members, and still, they didn't feel like they had a solid case. In the meantime, Kelly was playing games with them. Once a month, Kelly would call the Iron River prosecutor and ask if they had an arrest warrant out for her yet. Finally, in November of 2015, over a year after Chris' disappearance, the FBI brought the Cochran's in for questioning. The feds believed if they threw circumstantial evidence around, The feds believed if they threw circumstantial evidence around, they could get one of the caucons to break. The feds sat Jason down first, who they believed was, well, soft.

We did find 32 items with blood evidence on them. So those items are being processed at the lab as we speak now one of the items we found was a baseball bat up in the raptures in that little shed Okay, and there was blood on that baseball bat But some of the other items we found there were you know some blood on some of the boards of Back there was a burn barrel that had been missing of back. There was a burn barrel that had been missing. The Michigan State Police during their search phone saw Zaw Blad in the fire pit. There was a rabbit's foot that was found under the, I believe, the ramp of the front porch. And after

talking to Chris Regan's former girlfriend Terry O'Donnell, I believe. She said Chris typically carried a rabbit's foot around with him for good luck. Jason started to sweat a little and the agents knew they were getting somewhere. So you know I just think this is an opportunity for you to kind of say okay look, look, I'm done playing the game. I wanna be honest, I wanna do the right thing. I wanna tell you guys what happened because I can tell you're a good person, I met your family today,

and I know you come from a good family. I think you made a mistake. And maybe Kelly pushed you to do that. I don't know, but I'd like it if you would be honest with me. I'll be honest with you. There's two things I have to say. I've never met Chris Regan in my life. I didn't even know what he looked like until I have tried seeing a missing poster of him. Okay. The second thing is that Kelly's phone wasn't working and so she was using my phone.

It wasn't uncommon up there for her phone not to where she used the other phone. Other than that, you know, there's nothing I can help you with. Like I said, I've never met the gentleman. You know, I hope for the best that he's all right. But like I said, I've never met the guy. The crackling in Jason's voice confirmed that he was indeed close to his breaking point, but Kelly had trained him well. pushed beyond your ability to handle it, I think that it's something that, you know, by the grace of God, go like, I think that it could happen to anybody.

It could happen to Mark and her both married, and my wife was cheating on me, and the person that she was cheating with came into my house with my wife. I'm not saying I'd kill him, but I'd be fighting mad. It's time to own up to it. It's time to say, all right, I made a mistake. Put your hat in your hand and say, this wasn't Kelly. Kelly did her wrongs, but this wasn't her. She just protected me because I made a mistake. I got mad and I

did something. We talked about it. Two things. I never met Chris Regan and I don't answer any more questions. After making little progress with Jason, they moved on to Kelly. The agents knew that Kelly was brilliant, and if they could convince her it was either returning Jason or go to prison, she might give her husband up. That's just the kind of gal she was. And here's where I want you to take a opinion. You're going to have to evaluate for yourself because I can't promise you anything.

But you're going to have to evaluate for yourself what is in your own best interest and what you think you should do or shouldn't say. But I want to tell you a point point what we think most likely happen. Let me paint three scenarios. This is probably the easiest way to say it. In this particular case or this, is that you were upset at Jason. I'm sorry, at Chris, because Chris was moving, because Chris wasn't going to take you with him,

because Chris, whatever reason you got into a fight, and that you killed Chris because you were angry at him. So that's scenario number one. Seryon number two is that Jason, because he was jealous, because he was frustrated with life, because he's angry at life, whatever, he'd get a lot of things going back for him, strikes out at one of your boyfriends and kills him, and if you're not involved in anyway, well, we know that is the told truth, but he may have killed him on his own, and then you got involved at some point down to Robert.

Just then the agents noticed that Kelly didn't look nervous at all. Instead, she cracked a smile and looked interested. One very logical scenario that makes sense to me, and if I were to bet on any one of those three scenarios, I would bet on the third one in which Jason tricksicks you and the thinking that he's gonna be gone. Maybe he sees your text messages on your phone because there were text messages Between you and Chris setting up a date later that evening Maybe Chris says all right. I'm taking a truck. You've only got one vehicle. He says I'm believing town I'm going to Mark at I'm going to Indiana whatever

I'm going to Marquette, I'm going to Indiana, whatever. He leads you to believe he's going to be gone, which forces the issue. And forces him, I'm sorry, forces, if you're going to hook up with Chris, if force is Chris, to come and get you at your house, and then he gets killed. Kelly just sat there silently thinking of her next move. I understand you love him, you care for him. thinking of her next move. If it wasn't planned ahead of time, I think it's important for us to know. I can't make any promises, but you can look at those three scenarios. You're very smart. All right, that's why I wanted to know about education. I don't know how smart a person I'm dealing with.

All right, you're probably more educated than I am. You're probably smarter than I am. Then Kelly denied all their allegations as usual, and like her husband refused to answer any more questions. And, but I want you to think about it, and I want you to consult with your attorney by and like her husband refused to answer any more questions. So there's been a lot of investigation, you guys have only been involved since I told you I think the highlights of our case, and I told you what the working scenarios are, and I told you that I think it's important, that it will benefit you, I can't promise you anything, but I think it's important for somebody as intelligent as you are, is to think about it, think about what you think you should do, and then if you want to contact us, and then you decide whether or not you want to do that.

Okay? Thank you. Kelly took the agent's advice and considered what would be in her best interest. But she came to a very different conclusion. Get this. On February 20th, 2016, Kelly Cochran reported her husband, the non-player character, dead of an alleged overdose. It raised just a bit more than a few red flags that a murder suspect spontaneously died. So Chief Frizzo requested a detective look into it.

That detective was Hobart Indiana's Jeremy Ogden. Jason's autopsy showed fatal amounts of heroin in a system, but his cause of death was suffocation by exphyxiation. With Jason's death ruled a homicide, Kelly was the only suspect. That's when Kelly's brother paid Detective Ogden a visit. Kelly's brother told Ogden that she killed her husband, but there was more to her than meets the eye. Then he explained that Kelly has in-depth knowledge of psychology

and had murdered Chris Regan and eight other people before Jason. Kelly's brother left Detective Ogden with a decision to make. He could arrest Kelly for the murder of Jason, or he could leverage Jason's death to solve the other alleged murders. The detective chose the second option and started to build a relationship with Kelly, disguised as consoling a grieving widow While building that relationship the detective learned that Kelly had a girlfriend in Indiana that he could use as an informant Unfortunately Kelly was on to him and decided that she would show him how crazy she could be Kelly finds out about it through talking to her.

And so then I had concerns for her that something would happen or could happen to her. And like two o'clock in the morning, one night Kelly has her in the front seat of the truck. She has her with her top off and she takes a photograph of her boobs and sends it to me kind of like a high hammer if I want her. And then the next day I started looking for her,

you know, to make sure she was all right. And Kelly came in for an interview, and she's even in the interview, she's even clogging someone, you know, like, and I'm not sure what happened to our friend last night. Maybe you should look into that. During that interview, Kelly agreed to take a polygraph

about Jason's death, but never actually planned to follow through with it. On the day of the polygraph, Kelly faked a sexual assault. I set her up for that and then blowing the hole, she said she was raped and three guys did this and all this other stuff. And you know, I guys did this and all this other stuff. And you know, I mean, it was all, it was like her trying to give me to feel sorry for her as part of the plan really. And then at the same time, to later be able to say to the political examiner, oh, comes pregnant. Kelly claimed she learned of the pregnancy after she went to the ER because of the fake

rape. You may ask yourself, why would someone fake their rape and pregnancy? The answer is law enforcement won't administer polygraphs to pregnant women. That day I met with her in the lobby and I patted her down and everything and took her women. After Kelly was confident that Detective Argin would make a great playmate, she stepped the game up just a notch. She's very clever and I'm not hard to find, but I don't hide. She obviously followed me at some point where I didn't know it and knew where I lived. So she would drive past here.

On the particular day that I saw her drive pass when I pulled the driveway I turned around and I followed her and that's what led me to the park down the road. And I watched her go into the park and step there on this dead tree. And I watched her from the other side of the lake and that spot ended up being pretty significant. As a veteran police officer, Ogden was no stranger to power moves and he decided to make one of his own.

And honestly, the tree, and going into the woods and seeing where she was sitting in the woods and having watched her there several times, I went in the woods at like five o'clock in the morning and I carved her wrist that's here.clock in the morning and I carved verses here. And then the other triad carved Reagan. And I knew that when she sat down on the log that she would see it. The next few days were going to rain, so the detective New Kelly would have to wait before

seeing his art project. In the meantime, the FBI had contacted Jason's best friend, who agreed to help the detective out. On a day when the rain was coming down heavily, Detective Ogden had the friend call Kelly late one night and tell her, Alive. Hey, can I call you back from my house, sir? I guess you could if you had to, but this is... Oh no, what?

Well... This is really going to bug me but Jason asked me for my address. Okay. And you know no big deal I gave it to him. And I got a letter like January 4th or 5th or something like that from him. And inside is a note from him and another letter. I don't even know how to. The note says, Drock, if something were to happen to me, please send this in a few weeks, do not open it, thanks, quiet, quiet. And there's an envelope in there with no return address

to the Iron River Police Department. So I mean, it's been three weeks and I don't even, it's been bugging me, I haven't been talking about it. But it's like I'm supposed to mail this, but I just wanted to tell you, please don't. I don't know how I'm not to. The tale that Jason's friend came up with seems a bit dramatic, but it worked. Here he is. I can't hear you.

Are you serious? Yes, I can just see you. I'm not... ...fucking with you. I really gotta go. I don't know what to do. I'm just killed every hour. All right. Take care. I really got to know I don't know what to do After they hung up Kelly was spotted heading to the tree where Ogden carved Chris's name The power move must have made Kelly feel backed into a corner because that night

She called detective Ogden to blame Jason for the murder of Chris Regan October 13th happens and She called Detective Ogden to blame Jason for the murder of Chris Regan. was from the time you were married. I don't think you're going to do it. Okay. In your agreement from the time you were married, was that if one person has an affair with that person, that's how I'm sure I'm clear that it would be, like for instance, if you have the affair, it's your responsibility to kill off that person. Very good time. Or he would kill you, and vice versa.

Okay. You got to make this agreement all the way back 14 years ago, Kelly claimed that she and Jason agreed on their wedding day that if either of them had an affair, it would be that person's duty to kill their lover. I guess that's one way to prevent infidelity. But it seems unfair for the third party, to say the least. Kelly claims she refused to kill Chris, so Jason invited him over pretending to be her. And when Chris arrived at the Cochran House, Kelly greeted him at the door. They had sex right there in the doorway, with Jason just a few feet away hiding down the stairs. Jason claimed that she didn't know Jason was there, but that was a lie.

When Kellyanne Chris finished, Jason crept out of hiding and shot him in the back of the head. From the landing, Chris Regan's body rolled down the stairs and into the basement. What occurs next? You're in your first class. I'm going to go get out. I'm dark. I'm dark. I left that. Something was old. It's not?

Probably. How do you get four steps in there? I'm a close. What occurs next? You put them in the middle of the basement. What happens then? You put them in the middle of the basement. What happens then? You get tired of those tools. Those tools.

There's two big knives. There's one with a hammer. You have to wander as a hammer and you see them. So as I move the hatch was there at the time. I don't think the hatch was for this one. And then you ask me has any other court form. As it turns out, Kelly's neighbors weren't lying about the sawing at 3am. Kelly claimed that before Jason dismembered Chris, they moved his car to the parking lot

outside of town. Kelly picked this parking lot because she knew that it was usually empty. When they returned, Jason cut Chris' body into tiny pieces, loaded them in the trash bags, and dumped them in the woods outside of Iron River. On March 29, 2016, Kelly Cochran and Detective Ogden drove to Iron River to recover Chris' remains. The next day, Kelly walked the detective through her house and showed him where everything occurred. After that, Kelly let a search party to where she claimed Chris's body was left.

However, instead of giving up the remains, Kelly led them in circles chasing ghosts. Frustrated and out of funding, the detective had to drive Kelly back to Indiana without making any real progress. Detective Ogden believed he wasn't getting anywhere with Chris Regan's murder by playing these games, so he decided to end it. To prevent Kelly from fleeing before he had an arrest warrant, Detective Ogden had her truck

toad, and somehow she came up with the money to repurchase it. Then on April 27, 2016, Detective Ogden set up the arrest, but Kelly never showed up. Hello? Hello? Can you hear me? Yeah, I can't. What's up? I'm running a little late today.

Where are you at? I'm 30. Where are you at? I'm 30. Where are you at? I'm 30. What's up? Where are you at? Where at? What are you doing?

What are you taking care of? I said, what are you taking care of? Just business stuff. Oh, OK. Workplace. What time do you think you'll be here? 12, 46 now. It takes me 30 minutes and about an hour. So, over and a half. The detective knew right then and there that Kelly was gone. I'm like, I said, I will be out of self service

been about four minutes. So, why are said I will see out of cell service been about four minutes, though. Why are you going to be out of cell service? Because there are certain areas, and if one doesn't work. When you're on route 30. 30. For about three minutes. For about three minutes you're on route 30, and then you're no longer going to be on route 30?

Correct. Okay. So, where are you? In Lake County, I'm out 30. Why is it a secret? Well, it's actually workwise. It's nothing bad. Okay. I'm going to take a look at something.

Okay. All right. Like I said, I won't have shelter if I don't even know if I can send a message. Although Kelly was on the run, her game wasn't over. Kelly would periodically turn her phone on, just long enough for law enforcement to ping her location. Leaving a trail for them to follow. She even dared to send Detective Ogden a text saying, the West Coast looks pretty good this time of year. But apparently Kelly wasn't such a skilled player,

because two days later, on April 29, 2016, the US Marshals arrested her in Kentucky. Kelly would only speak to Detective Ogden. So he and his partner made another road trip to begin the next level of her game. Kelly started the interview out by taking control and wasting as much time as possible. The detective thought Kelly was avoiding his questions, but she was stalling to buy herself time. Kelly gets quiet here, so listen carefully. You say you can frustrate because people don't believe you and yet you sit here and you lie and lie again. If really you play games, you do enjoy the game. It's like Jeremy said, the whole chess game, you like the chess game.

You love the chess game. Did you and Jason play chess? I played chess with everybody. And you probably won a whole lot. Yeah. You are very smart. Yeah. Think ahead. Think ahead.

Six feet of the head. Kelly was a few steps ahead of them all right. They just didn't know it yet. Checkmate Kelly. Yeah, it is. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You like that one, Diane?

You like his comment about Checkmate? Yep. Oh, it's over. For you. You won't see the outside of a little room, Kelly, for most of your adult life, if not all of it. We will see. When Kelly felt that the time was right, she dropped a bomb on them and confirmed her

brother's claim at the same time. In a half-assed confession, Kelly claimed that she murdered over two dozen men and took a trophy from each one. Kelly even told the detective that she enjoyed stabbing her victims because female serial killers like Poison, and she wanted to be different. Little did the detectives know Kelly planned to end the interview before naming any of her victims. Sevenths man here. Time was that. They put me in the silent, hand-by-washing and sharring.

It's about 30 of them. You had 30 of them. 30 set of them. We're getting that at. In your hand. Kelly just made it impossible for the detectives to use her confession in court. In an act of evil genius, Kelly was buying herself time for the drugs to kick in. Under the 14th Amendment, confessions that were coerced or involuntary aren't admissible in court, whether they're true or not. Kelly knew that a confession while under the influence isn't involuntary unless the person's thinking is impaired, so

she made sure to mention that her thinking was indeed just that. shower looking shower and what night can't you more said it isn't there can't shake something what do you want to show me and the shower just have a seat have a seat so you're saying you feel like you're affected right now by a senator you have 30 set of this I can go ahead my boss roll the cameras back The security cameras couldn't validate Kelly's claim, but the Kentucky jail staff shut the interview down immediately. While still in Kentucky, Detective Ogden tried interviewing Kelly once again, once she'd sobered up. Knowing that she could still pull strings from inside the jail, Kelly approached the situation cheerfully.

Even when pointing out that she was the suicide watch throughout the interview because the staff checked on her every 10 minutes. I guess we should have kept Epstein and Kentucky, am I right? But anyway, when the detective asked Kelly while she confessed to the other murders, she gave him a bizarre answer. where you are and you now know my capabilities. I was in your peak values. So from the beginning, you chose me to be the woman who actually was. Probably.

Yeah? What means you decide? Truthfully? Yes. My eyes? My eyes? Definitely. How come my eyes may be your eyes? The people's eyes. OK, what do you see come my eyes make you decide?

Okay, what do you see in my eyes? There's just something about sparkling blue eyes, wouldn't you say you did a lot of things throughout all this to try to throw me off or make me think that you're crazy or whatever to try to throw me off or make me think that you're crazy or whatever. Oh, that would be crazy. Well, you're not crazy. Oh, no, you're not. Is that typical form of this? And sanity?

Yeah. Can't do that. There's some nice crazy stuff on my other crazy. That's right. There you go. That's pretty good. Some day I was crazy. That's right, there you go. That's pretty good. So we have some half long later. Right.

That keeps on me, I am. Yeah, I'm sure, but see the thing that is, is you read the diagnostic book and then you go on there and you tell them the things that they need to hear so that they say the things to you, that you want them to say. So that they write a report and say, this one is crazy.

However, you're the most minute-to-little person in the whole wide world. Detective Ogden then told Kelly that the game was over. As she could tell him the truth, Mary was just going to go home. I didn't do the game, it was over. Oh, it wasn't. It wasn't. What you'd have to offer me for the game not to be over? Pretty hidden.

Well, everyone has needs. Can you consider? You can see. I don't care about very much. You know that. That's why you like me. I don't care about games. I know that.

I know that. I know that. Unfortunately, Detective Ogden was still playing the game, whether he wanted to or not. Do you know where I was? Wednesday? Um, sitting right here right this second, I can't like not dictate your every moves, but do I? Sure. Do I have documentation? Yes. How? Do you think your truck was towed for no reason? But do I? Sure. Do I have documentation? Yes.

Do you think your truck was towed for no reason? I have to move a piece of the puzzle ever now and then do. Sorry. Right? Jason's on paper. I know. Amazing. Do kill her son. She still gives you money to get the truck out. How on earth do you smooth that through?

How? Look at Leachie. You can't get a quick smile out of it. You got you got Jason's mother who you killed the paper of the truck to get it back for you to be able to make your next move. The detective believed Kelly was talking about running from him, but she was referring to a trucker she claimed to have murdered while on the run. Kelly explained in great detail about a man that she stabbed a death in the cab of his truck while at a hotel on the day she took off. The problem was all this was a lie used to test her power. Kelly wanted to show she could mobilize an army of state troopers with the snap of her fingers.

And it worked. The Kentucky and Indiana state police wasted hours looking for a dead man who never existed. Hours later, when the detectives determined she was lying, Kelly gave them another fabricated sob story. This time Kelly told Detective Ogden about her two children that she and Jason murdered. The first one was a daughter that Jason drowned at three years old. The second child was a boy, she murdered the day it was born as revenge for her daughter. The elaborate detail in which Kelly told her life was so believable that she missed out

on a career as a politician. Regardless, Detective Ogden was fed up with the bullshit and told Kelly he was going home and sending her back to Michigan. That's when Kelly changed her tune and offered him a peace treaty. You have to say to me if that's what you want. Yeah. Why? That's your selfishness. Tired. It's your only way to control. That's your next element of control when you no longer have it. No.

Yeah, it is. Think about it. Think about what you're saying. You have a presence of the much people. You about it. Think about what you're saying. You can probably have prison for the most people. You can keep count of this. Okay. So if you go, you go away in prison, you'll just keep count of it in prison. And she?

For the slander. Kelly claimed that if she had to live her life in prison, she would kill her way through the inmate population until they had no choice but to put her down. Detective Ogden, however, saw Kelly's request as an opportunity to get what they both wanted. That day in Kentucky, Kelly Cochrane agreed to give up Chris Regan's remains, a confession to the murder of Jason Cochrane, and the details of her other murders in exchange for the death penalty. Kelly Cochran was playing a game of cat and mouse with law enforcement after she went on the run for a second time.

When the US Marshals arrested Kelly and Kentucky, they charged her with the murders of Chris Regan and her husband Jason Cochran. While in custody, Kelly claimed to have killed almost two dozen men. An agreement was made between Kelly and her chosen detective that she would give up the remains of Chris Regan, along with the confessions of her other murders in exchange for the death penalty. When Kelly arrived into the custody of Michigan's iron river police department, Detective Ogden called her to make sure she would keep her end of the deal. I feel a police department, that was really creative. Oh, okay. They wouldn't give me any books. Also, because they wouldn't give you any books, you make shanks.

Well, I had to do something with my time. That's good, I like that. Yeah, I seen that in the report, so I didn't know that was going to get there. I told you, anything's a weapon. What was going to get there? It didn't seem to be what find your shanks. Well, the glasses were all for a purpose, so why did you make the glasses? What were you actually going to do with them? Kelly was not a model inmate as you can imagine.

She managed to make multiple weapons. Along the way she found drugs in every prison she was held in, no matter how isolated they kept her. Seeming Kelly was in a sharing mood, Detective Arctin decided to ask her where she hid the trophies from all her victims. I don't know. I mean, except for the night. Where are the trophy? For real. Maybe that's another day. Another day. Hey, like I said, if you can honor your

little brother, let me have him one more time. Like you said, minus and minus. Maybe you can let me just touch him. I would do that. That deal would never come to fruition. I'm gonna hang up with you. Okay. You are gonna go show them Chris. Is that what you're gonna do? Yes. Okay. Play well, okay? I try. I'm not kidding. Would it play well, me? I mean, don't get yourself hurt or hurt anyone else. I try not to hurt myself. Every time I have to not hurt somebody, I do get hurt. So, that's a part of the process. One or the other. Kelly did just that.

As if they were best friends, Kelly and police chief Frizzo went back to the Cochran's house together. And over a cheese pizza, they collected a rest of the gun. Finally, Kalee took Frizzo to the woods, where it criss-es remains were left. At first, they found empty garbage bags, scavenged by ants, and they were not able to get out of the water. They were not able to get out of the water, but they were able toisod of the woods where Chris's remains were left. At first, they found empty garbage bags scavenged by animals, but further into the wilderness, they found Chris's skull, alone, in a clearing.

Detective Ogden was delighted to hear that Kelly followed through on her promise and called to thank her. I'm going to say thank you for doing the right thing and allowing the right thing to occur. You have no idea how important it is. And maybe you do, but what you did was so necessary and he deserved it so much. And I thank you for that. Okay. I don't do thank you, phone calls, detective. The state of Michigan never executed a prisoner, but the state of Indiana would.

Kelly's problem was the murder of her husband wouldn't be enough. If she genuinely wanted to die, which the detective believed she didn't, Kelly would have to give them proof of her other murders. Kelly refused to give confessions over the phone, but agreed to do it in person with Detective Ogden and only with Detective Ogden. Did you ever answer me on what I would be considered? Yeah, I did. Did you uniform? No, no, no. No, no, no. That's a fuck the unicorn. No. I asked what I'd be considered.

Most people would be considered a widow. But it's a little different for me, isn't it? Yeah, I don't know if it counts that way whenever you kill your husband. Right. That's why I was wondering what I would be considered. I don't know. I'm going to have to look that up. I'll probably Google that after I hang up with someone. Do you know what a black widow, would be considered. On May 23, 2016, the detective drove back to Michigan and allowed Kelly one last chance to earn herself the death penalty. I will not spend my life in prison.

Okay. I'm just telling you that. Okay. What I have to do to not spend my life in prison, I will do whatever I need to. What's that mean? Am I going to get What's that mean? Am I going to get a fucking turtle suit out of this? No. No.

Because I know you're not talking about today. Okay. I need to see you. Because I plan on doing the court thing. It's all new to me. Why? Why the facade? What for the...

To play it all up? I mean, because I don't understand that part of it either because you because you want to show everyone how smart you are Because you want to put everybody up there and try to make us all of them You're not dumb. You're very smart. Well, I was very smart too. And I told her not to doubt her god She shouldn't if she was right from the beginning, right, but she doubted herself. She never doubted herself. She didn't. Others doubted her.

Right. And you know what? That's their mistake, not hers. The only end, that's why I was easier to give her everything. At first, Kelly danced around Detective Ogden's questions, telling him stories of how she talked her way in and out of mental institutions as a teen for the adventures. However, Kelly's demeanor changed when Detective Ogden told her that she was the reason he was retiring from detective work.

You know what? You don't have to talk to me about anything else other than Jason and Chris, and I'm fine with that, and be honest. I was just hoping that after all the time we spent together that you would actually have an honest conversation with me and it doesn't matter. This is the last case I'm doing. I want you to know that. I'm no longer doing investigations. I've stepped out of it. Really? Yeah. This is my last case. Why? Time for me to do something different. You're something else.

No, I'm real. That's why I am. I'm a real person. You're going to stop doing something that you put your whole life into and you put yourself into. I'm by that. It's true. That's not you. You don't give up. I'm not giving up. Yeah, you are. No. Kelly appeared personally offended that Detective Ogden was retiring because she saw it as I can't want you to do your last case like this. It's longer.

It's a truth. Little did Kelly know that wasn't the truth. Detective Ogden made it up and it worked. Kelly started with a confession to the murder of Jason. But the detective was to put it lightly in for a long day. From the time he shot Chris, I wanted him dead. The detective was, to put it lightly, in for a long day. The real genuine Kelly Cochran came to play. I just figured it was a life for a life. The heroine was, he did say he wanted to live more.

A little bit, because I always got to go out and party and have fun. So I made sure he got to live a little bit. We were both pretty fucked up and he was behind fucked up. I think you can imagine especially something you doesn't do that stuff. He was having a hard time breathing. He started getting sick. I didn't hold his neck. I held his mouth up. The look on his face. It's a confusion. Fear.

More confusion than anything. Did you do anything? He didn't, he didn't move much. He chose to see. He was vomiting and out of my hand. Can you imagine how it is to drown on your own clothes? Didn't take long. But I wasn't holding his hands.

I gave him a chance. Once Kelly got the murder of Jason off her chest, the other confessions came easy, except for the first kills she ever made. Now there's one that I will never give up. And there's a good reason for that. Hi. When I was younger, this girl won tawny. She was 26 at that time, and was 17. And we hung out, we partied, we had some fun.

I watched her kid watch her husband beat her up all the time. Well, we went out to a party in Hobart. I didn't know what I was walking into. There's 12 guys, and then me and her. And she decided to go hang out with eight of them. And she left her under H drunk friend outside on the couch. I made sure to at a later point do my own justice on that. That under H friend she referred to was Kelly herself.

Kelly then confessed to the rest of the murders in a game show style speed round. Let's get through 5, 6, and 7. Let's call in at evenings. And then can we do it fast? A quick run through and we'll go. So just give me names, give me names of 5, 6, and 7, and just short little details. And then it's time for us to talk about again tomorrow after we're all done in the morning. Chris Adams. Chris Adams is the correct name? Yes. And where's Chris Adams? That was 100% me.

Okay. Where? Where? Anya. All was he? I don't know. About. Older than what I am now. What year? 35. What year? That's a guess. That was after I was married. 2003. The other two were 2001. They didn't stop after 5, 6, or 7. Kelly gave up name after name, age after age and location after location.

What's name of 5? Michael. Where was he from? Chicago. Stabbed. Body recovered? Not yet. By can be.

Six. Daniel. Daniel won. Me the most. What? V the most. I'm going to say around 40 for him, maybe early, early 30s. 2004 for five. 2006 very 6.

That's right started school. Okay. How was he killed? He stamped. That was my preference. Where? That was East Chicago's. Charles.

I knew him as Chuck. Last thing you'll have to check the ID. It's been a while. He'd been late in 40s. Then this happened, 2008. Stand as well. This was outside of bar. This happened outside of bar in Chicago,

but wrapped up in Cedar Lake. Another Jason, Olson. We're in. 34 from Minnesota. He was sedated. The next day Detective Ogden returned to learn about the trophies. The detective would point to a name on the list and Kelly would say what she took as a trophy, all while casually snacking on a bag of M&Ms. a small like a Swiss army small life. Okay. There's a crush, small crush. Next one, I was a watch. Here's a little Winnie Winnie.

Price. That was, I didn't take anything from him. We don't know. Well, they have a changed on it. There's money for drugs. How does the missile run? Here's what's in that list. Just a cold chain. That went on for victim after victim.

But in the end, Kelly refused to tell the detectives where she hid the trophies. Without them, there was no way to validate a single person she claimed to have murdered, other than Jason. Not a single name, nor story Kelly gave, checked out. Not even a single person went missing that matched the timeframes or locations she gave, which leads you to believe that she made them all up. As a result, the prosecutors used Kelly's murder claims not as proof that she was a serial killer, but instead as an example of the lies she was willing to tell.

And the games she was willing to play. In 2017, Kelly Cochran was sentenced to life in prison without parole for her part in the murder of Chris Regan and 65 years in prison for the murder of Jason Cochran. Regardless of how the trial went, Detective Ogden still believes that Kelly is indeed a serial killer. A serial killer. I know she is responsible most likely for other deaths, but I do not know how many. I don't think that many. Maybe a handful at the most. I don't think that she's any Messiah of killing, so to speak, but I do think that forensically she did a good job cleaning up her crime scene She and Jason bold and that um

I don't think it happens that way very often. I think that there are some key things to her That still make me wonder what else there is and that's It's important to note that you know she was found guilty in Michigan of killing Christopher Reagan and sentenced to life plus whatever and then came back to Indiana and pled guilty and would only plead guilty if a portion of the stipulation said that you would never be charged with another murder in Indiana if she released any information. Ogden believes Kelly planned the blame Jason from the very beginning,

which is why she used his phone to contact Chris and hid two pieces of evidence inside of their home. Whether you believe that or not, one thing is true. Kelly Cochran played games with human lives. She was Player One. And everyone around her was an NPC. Kelly allowed her husband, clearly an NPC, although he didn't know it at the time, to murder Chris Regan and then brutally murder Jason to keep it all a secret. It was all part of her plan, her strategy in this game of life. Kelly then kept the game going as long as possible until Detective Ogden said, that's it,

game over. To this day, Kelly contacts the detective trying to get the game going again, but has failed to give up anything worth his while. He just doesn't want to play anymore. So for now, the only game Kelly gets to play is don't drop the soap. If that's a thing in women's prisons, I don't know. I guess it could be nowadays when women have dicks. Anyways, you'll be surprised to hear that some good news has come out of Kelly's actions. Police Chief Laura Frizzo and Detective Jeremy Ogden became so close while working on this case together that in 2021, they got married.

And check this out, they started a podcast together that they used to help police officers deal with the trauma experienced while on the job. The show is called Cops Anonymous if you want to look it up. As for Kelly Cochran, it doesn't seem like she's going to be getting out of prison anytime soon, but you never know these days. If she ever does, perhaps she'll focus her talents on a new type of game, the dating game. After all, she seems to have made a pretty good matchmaker.

It's too bad though, it costs two human lives. Alright, that does it for this episode of Sword and Scale. Thank you for joining us. We hope you've had a good time. Remember for the next two weeks or so, we're going to have a bit of a screwed up schedule. Our regular episodes will be coming out every week, and then we'll switch back to our alternating schedule of plus and regular episodes. If you're on the free feed, you'll also notice that season two is now behind the paywall. So sign up to plus to today, five bucks a

month, SwartonScale.com slash plus. You can also get SwartonScale light on Apple podcasts or better yet just download our app. Our app is awesome. Stay safe. Hey hey hey, it's Kyla from Boston, I'm sitting in traffic. What's him? And I'm listening to plus 68. Just to tell you a funny story. You put in like the part where there's an airplane flying overhead because the family is coming from China. And I was sitting here like an idiot looking for the plane.

And then I got my video off because it was like you fucking idiot. But yeah I kind of thought maybe you think it's funny but maybe not. Okay thanks for getting me to the traffic and I'm gonna set a post podcast out. Bye I love you! 1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1.5-1-1.5-1-1.5-1.5-1.5-1. ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ ʻ‿ʻ‿� Thank you.