Sword and Scale - Episode 210

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

In 2010, Indiana sentenced the third minor in the state's history to life in prison without parole. This is the story of a small town boy without a criminal history who by nature saw the world through a different lens and whose nurture led to preoccupations of murder.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sort and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Just like on Napoleon Dynamite your wildest dreams are about to come true I'm conscious of you. So we revealed in the last plus episode that our prices for plus are going up soon. And we don't know exactly when that will be, but they're going to be basically double for the base entry, the base entry tier where you can listen all the plus episodes, get all the digital content. It's gonna go from five bucks a month to 10 bucks a month, but here's the beauty.

If you're signed up before we make the switch, then you're grandfathered in forever at the five dollar level. You never have to pay a penny more than five bucks a month. So if you've ever thought about joining It's probably a really good time right now. Sorry, we got to do this But you know inflation Biden's America costs are going out everything's expensive. So that's the way it goes I'm sorry. Do you think I was gonna pay for it? But listen if you want to get that deal you can still up. Do it right now. Sword and Scale.com.

Slash Plus. What makes a monster? Is it nature? Is it an undeniable imperative that they're born with? Are they truly out of control driven by a savage biological instinct? Or is it nurture? Do people learn through life's experiences, successes, and failures to be what they become? Are monsters just a harsh term used to label innocent people that were molded term used to label innocent people that were molded by other people and their environment and their surroundings, or do they really exist? Are they all around us?

And do they look exactly like we do? do. In the fall of 2010, the rural town of Rising Sun and Diana had been reeling from a horrific tragedy for nearly a year. With a population under 3,000 people, rising sun is a stark contrast to the hustle and bustle of Cincinnati, Ohio, only 40 minutes away. Murder isn't a common occurrence there,

but alone the murderer being a child. Judge, break was precipitated. I'm just sure Conley became very emotional when we took him back in chambers to talk with him. He basically said that because he feels, uh, it's a pali bell when he's done that he will, he just wants to accept the life of our problem. That we have told him, uh,

it's just not an option that he has, uh, an ability to argue these points that it is very important and necessary for him to go through this process that I've been honest with, telling that I just don't believe that I could stand by and do that. And that I think as a whole the court wouldn't feel it would be his best interest. His position was that, no, he couldn't be good and better here anymore and that he did not believe he could maintain convoysure and we thought he would just get there today and we've been reduced

every inducement but in the me also thought he felt that we all feel that it would be his best interest to stay here and that he needed to stay here and I think that the advice that you're giving your client is very good advice. It was a highly unusual request, but this was a highly unusual case. Andrew Conley found himself at the center of one of the worst crimes in the small town's history, if not THE worst. At the tender age of 17, mere months from his 18th birthday, Andrew was arrested for murder. Now listening to the playback of his interrogation, he couldn't bear to

hear it and requested to be removed from the court. You're on this time after Mr. Watson, if I have to consult with our client, he is, um, between motional, at this point, and he is insisting that he does not want to be present. I don't think we need to get into any other details why that is. He's very insistent that, uh, he doesn't want this matter to continue, and that he can't bear to hear anymore. To request and not be present at your own trial doesn't really do you any good. In fact, it is your right to be present in order to properly defend yourself.

Sorry, I think the request this time should be denied. Ms. Connell, I want you to remain present and again be able to assist your attorneys and be able to ask them any questions. You can't really blame Andrew for not wanting to be there. While his classmates were likely dealing with all the drama of coming to age, he was dealing with something far worse. Now that Andrew stood in front of a judge and two lawyers argued his fate, he likely wanted to be anywhere, but here. He was an average height kid, a little bit lanky, with a mop of orange hair atop his head.

His youthful facial hair amounted to little more than a wispy stubble, without a mustache inside. He wasn't the hardened criminal you might expect to be on trial for murder. At worst, it looked like someone you might have to run off for loitering. Not even a year before, his life had been that of a typical teen. Throughout the trial, the day leading up to his arrest would be relived over and over again. It was the weekend, late in November, just a couple of days after Thanksgiving. Andrew spent Friday night at his friend Jared's house.

Well, I worked out everyone to my dog and this car didn't go that way. Because that got a little, when that Jared's house you to play the game? And then 2300 then? Just a typical Friday night between two kids on the verge of graduation. I bet they talked about what they were going to do for the rest of their lives. Nah, they probably just played video games.

Oh, and snuck in a little booze, of course. We can't go all the time. Uh, no, smoke out. You're needing to be adults, the two stuck a little vodka. And in a true childlike fashion, mixed it with Mountain Dew and Kool-Aid, calling it a bullfrog. Why it was called a bullfrog, I have no idea. This is hardly the delinquent precursor to murder though.

It was just some kids doing what kids do. I'm at home. That's the dinner. All I'm doing is home. Andrew had plans with his girlfriend that night, but his parents both had to work late at the local casino in Resort. So he was tasked with babysitting his 10-year-old brother instead. Hello, my brother. I was just thinking of the incident. I was looking to the light on. I asked them.

That's the one of the grand halls. For the... You can just use that when you want to hear our old stuff. Yeah. When most teens complain about their evening plans being ruined, Andrew instead decided to visit his grandmother. What teen does something so wholesome? They even visited their uncle for a bit

before returning home. I took a day off from home, and then I had some, if you wanna do a rattle. And you got some. Andrew visited his grandmother and played with his little brother. He sounds like a good sibling and a great son. Later that evening, he eventually got to see his girlfriend, Alexis.

Alexis, I want to take you back to November of 2009. Were you dating anybody? Yeah, in November of 2009? Were you dating Andrew Carmel? And and Alexis what was your relationship with Andrew Conley back in November 2009? It was okay. We were dating still so it's okay. It's a boyfriend girlfriend relationship. Yeah, okay So now ask a few questions today Andrew was a senior and Alexis was a freshman at Rising Sun High School It was the kind of young love that mostly consisted of texting and supervised visits was the kind of young love that mostly consisted of texting and supervised visits. Alexis, specifically, I want you to focus on Saturday, November 28, 2009. Did you see Andrew on that night or that day?

Yes. Right? Did you receive any text messages from him on that day? I guess it did. Did you talk to him on telephone that day? Did he come over to your house that evening? Yes. I was doing Christmas decorations and it kind of just came up and I invited him over. Okay. You just slowed down just a little bit. Okay. Are you nervous?

Yes. Okay. Take a deep breath. Okay. Now can you repeat your answer to what you just said? I was doing Christmas decorations and we were talking and I just called text to them and told him to come over. Okay. Did he have a little name that he called you or how did he identify you in his phone book? Do you know my little vampire? Ah, young love and their stupid pet names. In case you were wondering, this is the time when Twilight was sweeping the nation, unfortunately. sweeping the nation, unfortunately. Silly Monikers aside, Andrew seemed like a regular kid in regular rural America, and not a cold-blooded killer. My girlfriend went to hang out with us, so I went up there.

Can you see what the love of 30 didn't want you to do? I went back to my house. I left the dogs out. The following day, Sunday, November 29th, 2009, Andrew watched a movie and joked around with his mom before doing a bunch of other mundane things that had no way to pick him as a murderer. I just watched Batman movies on TV. I drove down into town.

I got gas. I drove back home. After watching football with his dad and taking a walk, The soon to be accused murderer hung out with some friends. I do a past the park and my friend, Jeremy, was there. And then our friend, Debbie, Doug Whitaker, went up in the town. After that, he visited his friend, Dylan, and his mom, who in recent times had become something of a mother figure to Andrew.

And we went down to the first Irish room. And I went in there, and I saw and times have become something of a mother figure to Andrew. This is what happened in the 24 hours or so leading up to Andrew's arrest. A year later, he would be facing a judge. You can't help but wonder how a run-of-the-mill kid ends up accused of murder. I mean, this kid had an aspiration of being a detective. What were you planning to do after I went

to the police force. I'm going to detect it. Have you done anything to see what that kind of occupation was about? Yeah. I've researched a few things and then it's better to have a technology class. Like I was going to do the two have been since the year's the long-forstment, and then I was going to figure it out from there, and be a chance for someone else to keep in the back. Just from there, I was at the school all the way there.

I was at the grade 4 student, and only teachers like me. A short time before he was just a regular kid that had to catch the weekly installment of his favorite TV show. Something that while incarcerated gave him some solace. His mother would give him updates from time to time, like when his favorite character got arrested. And if he could somehow get out of this predicament, he had a long life to look forward to. What'd you guys do when he got there? We talked for a little bit and then we went my room and watched movie.

Would you watch? Do I lay? Did you get to watch the whole thing? No. Did anything special happen between you and the thing at that night? He gave me a promise, right? Were you surprised? No. No. I couldn't work to prize. Because I kind gave me a promise ring. Okay. Were you surprised?

No. No. I couldn't work to prize. Because I kinda knew it was going to happen. Okay. Where were you at when he gave you that promise ring? I'm laying in my bed. Okay.

Did he say anything to you when he gave you that ring? He said he loved me and he would always be that for me. It was an extra ring of his grandma's and he gave it to me because she letting him have it. Isn't that precious? Little did she know he was promising himself to her on the eve of his arrest for murder. She described Andrew that evening. Listen closely to what she says. Happy that I've seen him in a long time.

It doesn't make much sense from any account or his history, but Andrew did kill a person and was on trial, justly so. Standing in front of a judge, he only felt regret for what he had done and was prepared to accept any punishment he would receive. I would like to start with saying that I am very sorry. I would like to thank all the people up there that support me And I regret the position I put you all in and you maybe you could have started for helping me I would like to apologize to mom and dad for all of this. I'd also like to apologize to the community of a highway county for all this happening I still have no idea why this happened, but I really wish that I did. I I still have no idea why this happened, but I really wish that I did. I go to sleep every night and I wake up every morning and I wish I could change what happened. The punishment that I get from your honor will be just and fair and undeserved.

While in prison I plan on getting my GED, then getting a college degree in some sort of history, literature, or in some field of astrology. If I'm not able to get a job in something that pertains to those that are on happily run, Beth Early's restaurant, that is it, your honor. Andrew Conley was a lanky 17-year-old charged with murder. He pled guilty and for went trial, but during the sentencing phase, rather than relive what he did, he asked the judge to stop the proceedings and give him life without parole.

The judge rightly denied that request, as he would for anyone, but especially for a child. There was still an opportunity to defend his actions and get a lesser sentence. After all, he had a long life ahead of him, and children can't be complete monsters, can they? That's what the court tried to determine, and most of the sentencing hearings revolved around Andrew's youth, and if he had any mental disorders, and if so, how culpable he was for the murder. Dr. Ed Conner, a forensic psychologist, was brought in to give his clinical diagnosis.

You have to make an analysis of whether a mental illness or disease is present. Correct. Yes. And then you also have to make an analysis as to whether that disease or defect is so serious as to make the person completely unable to appreciate the wrongfulness of their conduct. Correct. You're aware that the statutory definition of mental disease or the fact is severely

abnormal mental condition that grossly and demonstrably impairs the person's perception. There I am. Yes. And that's what you think. Yes. When the good doctor dove deeper into the mind of Andrew, he discovered that it was much more troubled than anyone could have ever imagined. When I was interviewing Andrew, he talked about having mood swings that were fairly severe, where his mind would

be racing, he would feel a lot of energy, sometimes it would be an agitated type of energy, and this would last for a period of time. And then he would start to get very depressed. And it was as if his body would become tired and fatigue. This rollercoaster of agitation and an exhausting depression was a cycle Andrew began experiencing when he was quite young. Andrew talked about starting to experience depressive episodes around. I believe it was the seventh

grade. He was young anyway. He was probably around 11 or 12 when he started to have feelings of depression and anxiety. So I believe that this was a mental illness that started probably in the pre-adolescent years and just continue and exacerbate it over the years. Andrew's undiagnosed illness onset occurred when he was still very young and it got far worse over the years all on its own, but he also had additional compounding issues. Along with that, in interviewing him, he's never slept well. In my experience with people who have difficulty sleep

in over periods of time, do become more depressed sometimes than agitated type of depression, sometimes they're very just flattened if you take type of depression. sometimes very just flattened, fatigued type of depression. On top of his mental illness, he had a sleeping disorder that made things worse. His internal battle with his mind eventually left him looking for a way out. He had suicidal thoughts, he had some suicidal attempts, so I believe that this was an ongoing and untreated, unfortunately, mental health condition.

Andrew tried to commit suicide just weeks before he would be arrested for murder. How did he attempt suicide to might ask yourself? Well, here's how. Did the defendant ever tell you that he tried to commit suicide? Um, yes, after the fact he did it. Okay. And what did he tell you? He told me that he put a heater in the bathtub with him, and his dad came there and unplugged

the heater, and then when he realized that did not work, he cut himself. When he was at his lowest point, he drew a warm bath and plugged in a space heater. He got in the bath and dropped in the heater. Luckily, his father noticed immediately and took action on plugging it. His body was okay but his psyche was anything but. When that attempt failed, he began cutting himself, even in school, and eventually would be kicked out because of it. even in school, and eventually would be kicked out because of it. Not only did Andrew have symptoms of being bipolar and asleep disorder that made it worse,

but he also had other symptoms that point to a far more serious diagnosis. Also he talked about hearing voices and that sometimes you would hear things, and that led me to consider other possible diagnosis such as schizophrenia if there was something along those lines. And looking over my interview with him in the manner in which he responded, the way he described the hallucinations, again I felt one it was consistent with people who truly do have these experiences. And I also felt that the bipolar disorder was also present. So my conclusion

was the schizzo effective disorder bipolar type. So in other words, you have some of the criteria that we see in schizophrenia, but it is not fully blown schizzo freinia, such as the flattened affect, the very flat presentation type thing. So Andrew wasn't yet full blown, but did have some schizophrenic traits. The more Dr. Connor spoke with Andrew, the more his understanding of him deepened. When I interviewed him about his mental state at the time of the crime, the way he described this to me as if he were watching what was happening. And again, this is an experience I've heard from other people not only in similar situations, but it had been a some type of a traumatic event. And I'm reading in a

second paragraph, full paragraph in the middle, like I was watching me do that. And I could not stop. I was screaming at myself to stop. One part of me was saying stop and another part was saying don't stop. Like I was not in control of anything, it was scary because I don't know if I could ever go back to being normal. And this is one of the things that I've heard in clients over the years where when they do dissociate, when they have a separation, that there is a level of anxiety where they're worried, can I come back together again? And in some times they'll engage in certain behaviors such as self-mutilation

or head banging in order to re-integrate the mind and body. Andrew told Dr. Connor that during the murder itself, he felt as if he was watching it happen from outside of his body. He tried to call out to himself to stop, but he wasn't listening. Here is Dr. Connor explaining more about disassociative states. What we've learned today about this concept is that when a person is in a trauma or some type of a traumatic event is occurring, that they feel as though their mind can separate from their body and they

can almost watch what their body is going through. It's a psychological defense mechanism that's very well documented in the research. And we'll typically see this with children who have been sexually abused. I was having a hard time understanding where the dissociative states originate. If you hear a dissociative state, if I hear a dissociative state, in my interview with someone, I'm going to look for a trauma. And some of the abuse trauma that he experienced that he told me about, in my mind, didn't really explain dissociation. On top of all his inner anguish,

he had a history of abuse, but nothing too troubling until a friend of his came forward and shared this. That he mentioned to her that he had been sexually molested when he was approximately seven, eight years old or so. A not-so-close friend from school, Andrew, had confided in lots. We were friends.

We didn't hang out outside of school, but we talked all the time in whatever classes we had, and we text outside of school, but we didn't hang out outside of school. You weren't boyfriends in the orphanage? No, yeah, we were just friends. I told him that Andrew sent me a text, blast. Oh my god, I think early November about when he was young, one of his mom's boyfriends, I didn't get a name, I didn't ask. Raid him, and then his mom locked him in his room, and that was kind of the end of the conversation about it.

And I tried to be supportive. Did he tell you how old he was at the time? I thought he had said nine, but I'm not sure. It was almost a year ago. It was in early November, and it was I think a week before he tried to kill himself. So maybe three weeks before. When confronted with this detail,

he never shared with the police, his lawyers, or even Dr. Connor on the first time around. Andrew confirmed it was true. I found that concerning and that for one, I certainly asked him if he had ever been molested or anything like this. And he said that he had not during my interviews in February and March. I went back to see him on September the 3rd and I was very clear with him about this is serious that now this comes up and why haven't you

talked with me about this. But more importantly is it true? Did this happen? And he said that it did happen. He talked about it was a stepfather who had annually penetrated him. And he believes that it was on his birthday when he was, again, I believe seven or eight. He talked about the blood and his underwear and how the stepfather wanted him to throw that away and being put in a closet afterwards and told you deserve this. Being molested or raped, do learn to at an early age to dissociate. Dr. Connor had discovered the source of trauma that led to his dissociation, but it was only part of a whole.

So let's recap Andrews ailments. He has manic episodes followed by extreme exhaustion and depression. Dr. Connor diagnosed him as having depressive type bipolar disorder. The sleep disorder only exacerbated it. Then you have his schizoaffective disorder. Correct. For a schizoaffective disorder, we have to look at the schizofrenia criteria under criterion A, and you need to have two of the criterion from schizofrenia under

category A, one of which is a flattened affect, a very flat emotional presentation, along with other criteria, one of which in this case would be the auditory hallucinations and sometimes the visual. Let's address the second part first. Andrew sometimes heard voices and on rare occasions experienced visual hallucinations. Turns out there's two types of auditory hallucinations. There's the kind where you just hear sounds and or voices that aren't there, but then there's also this other kind, a much more sinister kind, where you hear a voice commanding you to do things.

This is the far more troubling of the two, and is known as command hallucinations. Now there's no real way to prove someone hears voices that aren't there, but there is a way to tell if they're just making it up to appear more sympathetic. They're both where a person hears sounds or voices. The voices may tell you to do this or to that. If the command to hallucination tells you to do something, do you have to obey it? The true criminal will say, typically I should say, will say, yes I do, as if they can't control that. Where the truly mentally ill person will say

that no, I don't have to, and then the follow-up question is, well, what do you do then to try to divert the hallucinations? And they have strategies for doing this. How we've heard stories of people putting tin foil under their hat or foil on the windows to prevent this type of thing. Or in Andrew's case, he would play music or go do stuff to try to distract himself.

Dr. Connor believed Andrew actually experienced these hallucinations. The kid definitely had issues out of his control. A fact further supported by the first box checked under Schizo Effective Disorder. Andrews flat affect. We've all met that person. The one who only speaks in monotone. And you can't really tell when they're joking or serious. Or surprised or scared or any emotion whatsoever.

They just don't show it. Many of us call these people boring. But having a flat affect or an inability to express emotion combined with all of Andrew's other issues was a recipe for disaster. But just because he can't show emotion doesn't mean he doesn't feel emotion Do you do you view that as? Because he's flat that is also parallel to him being

him having little empathy or a lack of remorse I Don't and I and I understand why a person who presents themselves is very flat Might initially be perceived as such as lacking in remorse or empathy. The more time you spend with a person like this, though, what you see as this flatness is a very much depressed type of demeanor that I think is often misinterpreted

in the general population. A person's ability to experience shame and humiliation again indicates that they do have some level of emotional access to their emotions. He talked about how badly he felt for what he had done. He talked about not wanting deserving to live and asked me if I would be able to help him get the death penalty and a brief conversation with him about why he would want the death penalty and again it was I don't deserve to live with what I've done here. He struggled very much with trying to understand why He struggled very much with trying to understand why. As I did, as why he would do such an act.

Well, you wouldn't be able to tell if you talked to him. Andrew truly felt remorse and struggled with what he did and why he did it. The remorse was evident in action. However, undetectable in Andrew's expression. You see, at the end of the 24 hours leading up to his arrest, after Andrew saw his friend Dylan and hug Dylan's mom, he walked straight into the rising son police department and turned himself in. Prior to finding the body, you did not marrain Dyson to find it. Correct.

And why was that? Prior to finding the body, we did not know whether a crime had or had not been committed. Imagine being a cop and a lanky hoodie wearing teen wanders into the station and confesses to murder. This kind of thing never happens. And they were likely like, who is this kid? Is this some kind of prank? It's almost a comical, prove it, moment. So you had found a body that Riga Mordis had said, you know, right?

Correct. Or at least you thought so. You had been told that this gentleman had killed that little boy there. Is that right? At that time. Yes, we have cleaned that. Okay. Once they were sure that this kid had actually killed someone, they put him into an interrogation room to try to understand the why of the matter.

If you're like most people at this point, you're feeling a little bit of sympathy for Andrew. But what you don't know is what is really going on in his mind. I'm sick. And it just happened that I'm having your killing animal. Hmm. I tried once, but I didn't do what I didn't do. It was a cat. I'm trying to kill a cat. I, I grabbed't. I uh... I...

grabbed it and I... I taped like... Paul together and... laid it down and... then I went to do it and put it... I cut the little... I put the tape free and I let the peak figure. Andrew's preoccupation with homicidal thoughts wasn't enough to shatter any sympathy you had for Andrew, wait until you hear who he murdered. I got to get some wire and the sand.

You came in, you came in right in some place, part of... uh... ...proper here tonight. And uh... ...and why did you come in? Just tell them that. Tell them that for the last night. Okay. If anything had trouble, you brought rubbing in your hands is complete.

I mean, we argue like brothers, but, you know, when you're feeling it just doesn't sound good. But, just feel like, like, you know, like I was supposed to or need too, but it just felt like it. Like, enemies just felt like that I had to. I don't know how to word it, but try to follow as I understand that one. It was just like when you, like when people, like have something like a, like a, like they're hungry and there's a hamburger sitting there. They, know they had to have it and just, I've been sitting there and it just, just happened. Andrew killed his 10 year old brother Connor Conley and equated it to being hungry for a burger. With the who and the why out of the way, let's go back and revisit those 24 hours up until

he confessed in a new light as we discover the how. After having a slumber party at a friend's house where they drank the alcoholic bullfrog concoction, Andrew went home and learned he was on babysitter duty for little Connor. That's when Andrew took Connor to see their grandmother. Only it wasn't for a wholesome visit. It was just to see if she would babysit Connor. When she wasn't home, he asked their uncle, but he flatly refused.

That's when they went home to wrestle. He is 17. He is 17, he is 10, 10, and my guest is 15 as well as you. Yeah, 17 as you. To change a perspective on their brotherly wrestling match, you have to picture the size difference between a nearly grown 17 year old and a pre-pubescent 10-year-old boy. and they just turned into something worse. I did it line first, and then I increased pressure, and then just got back to control. He was like trying to get out, they're after me, he asked me to stop once.

He kicked in, threw punches, and he opened me to stop, but I couldn't. Did you ever stop? Did you respond? No. I tried, but no words came out. After the two began wrestling, Andrew claimed something clicked and he couldn't stop. With his arms interlocked around Conner's neck from behind, he held on and squeezed tighter. Conner flailed about trying to get free

from his brother. He's not going to be able to speak. Andrew held on to his brothers throughout until he lost consciousness and his nose began to bleed. care and I thought if you had him as we came up conscious so they were down. What did you think at that point was wrong with it? I thought he was dead because he wasn't moving and just didn't really self-experience and so I just took him into the kitchen. It was really by all accounts Andrew isn't a criminal mastermind, but he did for a moment entertain the idea that he could get away with it. Once Connor had passed out, Andrew grabbed him by the ankles

and dragged him into the kitchen. After all, he didn't wanna get any blood on the carpet and piss off his parents. Then he dawned a pair of mechanics gloves. They're like gloves and on the side of the gears I'm sticky, they help with grabbing things. a pair of mechanics gloves. The gloves are the type mechanics used to help grip car parts despite being covered in oil or grease. They are so grippy that they nearly stick to smooth surfaces, even class. Yeah, it was a weird life. I almost purplished it, and it's walked over.

And you know that, I was from a hairdresser on the stove. And then I just squeezed the word. Yep, I squeezed. And that was hard like, good. Yeah, dude, squeezed is a word. And how long do you think you're jumping? So, yeah, squeezed is a word. And how long do you think it's going to jump in? It's long. At that time, how does that make you feel?

Is it a rush or did it make me feel bad? But I knew I could stop. And I tried, but it didn't happen. When most little brothers are worshiping their bigger, seemingly invincible older brothers, Connor was slowly drifting into the afterlife at the hands of his. Eventually Andrew would estimate how long the entire strangulation took. Not only did he take breaks to catch his breath. When his arms got tired, he would switch up the strangling method, using one hand or

the other or both. After 20 minutes, when Andrew was satisfied that young Connor was fully dead, he finally stopped. As soon as Andrew released the pressure from Connor's throat, a purplish, foamy fluid immediately began flowing from his mouth. The most vivid thing Andrew remembered about killing his little brother was the smell. And now I can just, like, just sit in there, I can smell that and eat in food and screws. Wait, it just smells like a never-called, there was an odor.

I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, blood and just death was awful. After all that, Andrew was still concerned about ease of cleanup. He was fleeing from his nose and his mouth and I grabbed a bag from a drawer and put it over his head and tape it around and found black electrical tape and tape that. I've found all of the reason why he put the bag over his head so he wouldn't leave it on the floor like a grocery bag. When you get a home, I can get... okay okay so you put that over your mother's head and then you took block tape and you take it to the round of the egg. So around the space you're back in a circular motion. When he was confident of his preemptive action to keep the floors clean Andrew took a step back and was still for a moment.

Andrew dragged Connor's lifeless body through the house and down the stairs. Connor's head resounded with an echoing thud as it bounced off each step. When I dragged him down the stairs he hit his head a few times and when I went to put him in my trunk he fell out. He then ran back up the stairs to retrieve a garbage bag that he put Connor into Then he drove to the dumping ground The park mentioned just so happened to be only a half mile from the middle school that Connor attended. The park was popular for its walking trail and because it had a location where you could

deposit used oil for recycling. I went to the little little bit of barrels and the bath. I went to those. I went into those woods and I found a spot that I thought was reasonable. And I sent him down. I laid him in the woods with a garbage bag around me and I put some sticks over him. And did you carry him or grab him? I carry him and then he got hit.

So I sent him down first. I tell my best pick him back up and then I kept down. After Andrew disposed of his little brother's body, he went home, changed his clothes, and then went to his girlfriend's house. Did you add any different one in there that she sent the address? My name is Jonathan. My name is Irwin. I know that. Did she know is it? I have told her that my hands are present. Did she ask you why? You know?

How could she not ask? How could she not know? Could she be that much of a dimwit? Police weren't buying it. After you stole your brother, isn't it? After you stole your brother, from what? Police weren't buying it. But all you help and even don't kill your brother. That's why I need help. I'm sick. I said that I'm dead because of this incident. Alexis was oblivious to what Andrew had just done.

The idea that he was able to go to our house in the presence of her parents and never expressed any telling emotion after committing murder is enough to make your hair stand on end and send a shiver through your spine. Yet Andrew went home and watched Batman movies with his mom. She too was oblivious. Later, when he chatted with a stepdad and watched football, he showed no outward signs of internal turmoil. This was a believable story because Connor often stayed with his grandma.

It also suited Andrew's cover up well as she didn't have a phone, so they couldn't call the confirmed Conor was actually there. They had absolutely no idea that their son was dead and that they were sitting with the murderer. That day, the stoic Andrew went and got gas and then went for a walk at the very trail where he dumped his brother. After that he ran into two friends before walking straight to the police department and turning himself in. No one knew anything about Connor's death before he told his friends, but the whole town

would have found out eventually. Later in court, while he waited for his fate to be decided, even the one thing that brought him comfort while in jail was now evidence of his premeditation to kill. I was thinking this was the most fun. I felt the sweaters since I was 8th grade. If you ever looked up in the dark side stuff, and you couldn't see it with the scourge, to hurt people, to kill people, to strangle people, to get people's necks or whatever, you know, you never looked in the name when they had a come from the table.

I didn't know what you had in the middle here, but there's a show that I don't know if you've heard of it. It was called a text. When he was asked about anything dark, he immediately thought of his favorite TV show. During period of time that you and the defendant dated, did you ever discuss any movie shows that he liked to watch? Yes. Kind things and the Dexter show. Did he ever tell you anything specific in relation to the Dexter TV show? He wanted to be just like him. Of course he looked up to Dexter.

This isn't the first time and we've heard this before haven't we? I wonder how many murders that show is responsible for. Hell, I wonder how many murders, certain scales, are responsible for. Now that I come to think of it. They would go on to argue about whether or not the TV show had any relevance to the trial. But I'll let you be the judge. Dexter was a show about a man who witnessed his mother's brutal murder when he was still in diapers. He was irreparably scarred

and was depicted as a child having a flat affect. By the time he was an adult, he learned how to fake social interactions and emotions as a cover for his not feeling anything. Luckily, he is adopted by the detective who found him, who rather than fight his personality, molds Dexter into a killer that only hunts killers, both as a way to feed his hunger and make the world a better place in the process. Dexter. Yes. He said he wanted to be just like him. Okay, did he tell you anything else? He said he liked the way he did it in the show like how he was living two different lives as a killer and then not as a killer. When did this conversation take place between you and the defendant regarding the Dexter show? We were walking on the trail. Okay, walking on the trail is that a trail rising sun? Yeah. which trail were you walking on the one they found caught her on?

I I feel like him because he I Don't sometimes I don't understand why I don't understand my people laugh at something and he So like that he's a serial killer of like bad people and I I see a killer of like bad people and I want to actually look. I just feel like I'm one." A strange coincidence about the TV show Dexter is that the day Andrew turned himself in, November 29th 2009, a new episode aired. Andrew missed it because he was talking with the police, but the episode

was titled Lost Boys, and the plot dealt with a missing 10-year-old boy. He loves some people a lot. I guess, just not Connor. Andrew Conley killed his little brother and turned himself in. He claimed it was an accident, and that he wasn't in control of his own actions. The defense hired psychologists confirmed that Andrew indeed had some undiagnosed mental illnesses. He had manic episodes followed by extreme physical fatigue and depression that the doctor identified as a bipolar disorder. During that crime he experienced another issue. Dissociation is a psychiatric term.

It's a very dangerous type of psychiatric symptom because if a person continues to do that, they can just remain very detached. After several interviews with Andrew, Dr. Connor concluded this, my diagnosis on the first axis is get the effect of disorder, the bipolar type. Despite his very real diagnosis, there were other factors to consider when deciding if

Andrew was responsible or not. For instance, after his mother fell asleep on the couch while watching Batman movies with Andrew, he son was there. What do you think about doing? I don't think I was thinking about doing anything, but I mean I thought I thought I'd This happened not once but twice. He wasn't lying, he did feel sick, just not physically. The sick feeling is something he had felt for years. He asked me to not understand the sky school, it was just a real, jerk so speak, I need a different word but I thought of this light, waiting for him to go to the bathroom and then I would follow and he would go to pee and ask him to just go, I would come from behind and ask him. He trailed off there, but we know where he was going with it.

By Andrew's own account, he had felt like this for a while and even fantasized about committing murder. After he murdered his little brother, he even considered killing his stepfather. So now, you have two opinions of this murder. One where a normal kid killed his brother, but only because of compounding mental issues. Except for this one inexplicable incident, he was a very normal, lovable kid. And that's what we want the judge to see. And the other, where he isn't a normal kid at all, but rather a cold, unfeeling monster that intended to kill, and would most likely do it again, if not

kept in check. The facts are these. On November 29, 2009, Andrew Conn, like walked into the it again, if not kept in check. They're recommended to the kitchen and strangle him until he was certain he was dead. Andrew was sick, but according to Dr. Connor, he wasn't that sick. One of the things you said in your report was, despite being in this sort of state at the time of the offense, his executive functioning was not suspended and he was able to make rational decisions. Yes. And that this is not diminished, he does criminal culpability or absolve Andrew from his responsibility

or ability to conform his behavior to the law and societal expectations at the time of his offense. Yes. When the prosecution filed notice that they would be pursuing life in prison, Andrew changed his plea to guilty, dropped his mental defect defense, and proceeded straight to sentencing. Who's responsible for this? That's him. Mine.

Did you know what you were doing at the time you did it? Yes. Because then anybody can make you do this. No. Anybody ask you to do this. That's the time you're doing this, nobody does that. Regardless of what anyone else thought, Andrew feared the worst. What I was feeling through a lot was actually starting to become a reality, which is a plot. And then I found it hurt people.

It hit me that I just filmed my brother and that I was going to be what I thought I was going to be all along which is what belongs to him. Now let's revisit his apology right before the judge delivered the sentence. I would like to start with saying that I am very sorry for murdering my little brother and I would never forget him and how much he meant to me and how much he meant to so many people. That's it. That is the only remorse he showed in court.

A one sentence apology. It certainly doesn't sound like he's sorry, but remember, he has an inability to express what he feels. I don't know why the criminal justice system and human beings in particular are so hell-bent on this whole apology thing. Our current cancel culture depends on someone apologizing right before you cancel them. Does it really matter if someone's sorry or not? If they did something so horrible? The rest of his apology seemed like he expected to eventually get out.

But that's not what happened. Andrew was sentenced to life in prison, becoming only the third minor ever to receive that sentence'm belonging to those people. The prosecution, the judge, and even Andrew himself thought he should be away for life. In his own words, he just doesn't fit in society. He saw the world through an indifferent lens, and even tried to convey that feeling to the adults around him. His undiagnosed illness, along with the trauma he suffered at an early age, compounded by years of indifference, bred a monster, and resulted in a senseless murder by a young man that can't explain why he did it. He was aware he was sick, but was also unable to find the words to

explain it, or anyone that would listen until it was too late. Now Andrew's view has aligned too late. Now Andrew's view has aligned with many others, just like him. The view from a jail cell. This unassuming teen with bright red hair and freckles is not your run of the mill kid after all. He is a murderer and he's right where he should be. But there is one last twist to the story. In 2012, he appealed to the Supreme Court of Indiana, but the justices were split in their decision. He then was denied post-conviction relief by the trial court in 2019. But in February of 2021, the Court of Appeals awarded him a new sentencing hearing, citing ineffective counsel, because they failed to properly challenge the state's experts about

Andrew's undisputed significant mental health issues. It has yet to be scheduled, but it's likely that because of his age, at the time, his lack of a criminal record and his mental health, he will be resettanced to a term far less than life without parole. There are two general lenses by which the public views law and justice. We've tried to present them here to you today, in a way where you can more clearly see exactly what they are. The real question is, what role does the public's empathy for a defendant play and what their punishment should be?

And how does that queue up with actual justice? Shouldn't the playing field be the same for the same crime? After all, Connor is still dead, no matter who the murderer was. Isn't it actually worse that the monster was his own brother? Don't separate the art from the artist. You can't. I'm the artist. You can't. I'm the artist. I created it.

It is me. If you like the art, you like me. What do you like it or not? Bitch, you're a fan. Deal with it. See you here next time. Stay safe. 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc

1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc

1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc

1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc 1 tbc sdmdc Hi Mike, it's Melissa. I just finished listening to plus episodes 89 on the case of Jeffrey It was a movie episode about suicide and its effects. It just really touched my heart and I wanted to say a good job on this episode. It was really, I think, people needed to hear episodes like this. And these people need it here. It doesn't look like this. And we know it again. So no one's at. No.

Not to give up. It's so. Thanks. Thank you.