Sword and Scale - Episode 220

Episode Date: September 12, 2022

When the body of 27-year-old Mennonite woman Sasha Krause was discovered near Sunset Crater National Monument in Arizona, detectives were picking up where New Mexico’s authorities had left off. Sasha was reported missing a month before, and the case had gone cold. Now that detectives had a start and an end point, they could use cell phone records to find out who had been traveling alongside the deceased damsel.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. I was just gathering wood and I think I felt a dead woman. Hello and welcome to season 9 episode 220 of Sword and Scale. A show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Well, I sort of hinted at it a few weeks back, but here it is. You're in for a big surprise if you are a sasshole. Or even if you're not a sasshole, you're just a regular listener. You're about to get a treat.

From now until probably the end of October, as long as we can keep up the stamina, we're going to be putting out twice as many regular episodes as we normally do. And the same number of plus episodes. So nothing's changing on plus, but we're going to put out basically weekly free episodes. So tell your friends and hide your kids, hide your wife. Today all day, let's go! [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ We all want to be accepted, don't we? It's nice to be accepted. That warm, cozy feeling of belonging. On the flip side, it sucks when you're not. That might explain the rise of vokism.

But hey, I know when some of you hate it when I state the obvious. Needless to say, the more reasoned individuals out there, know that a desire to be accepted can sometimes turn ugly. After all, we're all human. We're all petty. And when our need to be accepted isn't satisfied, well, let's just say bad things can happen. The sunset crater volcano is a national monument in Arizona. It's what's left of an eruption that tore through the earth a thousand years ago,

leaving the surrounding landscape unformable, but still beautiful in a way. This eruption was felt far and wide. The fire fountains of visibility spread across a hundred mile radius, while the ash clouds swept through nearly the entire state of present-day Arizona. This natural event has left the forests with a sandy, sender-earth floor, the perfect terrain to trek upon during the commission of a crime. As a foot sinks into the fine grey pebbles, Mother Nature can always be trusted to cover the track. Would you mind having see it like right here? No. No. I really appreciate you being able to talk to me.

Sure. Um, yeah. I said before, I'm going to take the mire with you to share with yourself. Say again. The taking mire. Okay. So, obviously, I think you can have an idea why we're talking, right? Well, yeah, because I came and purchased it out here to report. Okay, I got you. have an idea why we're talking, right? Well, yeah, because I came and purchased out here to report.

I got you. What I found. Cynthia Schultz is a sun-weathered middle-aged woman living a nomadic life, but not by choice. She was once a schoolteacher in California, but after suffering from something she calls microwave radiation poisoning, following her years surrounded by cell phones, Wi-Fi routers, and other technology that emits electromagnetic waves. She had to leave it all behind. Which she describes seems eerily similar to the controversial condition term, electromagnetic

hypersensitivity, or EHS. For those of you who've watched Better Call's Saul, yeah, that's the thing that Chuck has, or had, next, spoilers. In late February of 2020, Cynthia had been driving around in her truck, stuffed full of camping supplies, stopping in remote areas to sleep every night, like really, really remote areas. Now Cynthia wasn't flying by the seat of her pants. She had her lifestyle down pat. She had honed her intuition to a point where she knew whether a location would be a safe

campsite for the evening or not. If it wasn't, she'd keep driving. This campsite was remote, but familiar to her. Situated near Flagstaff, Arizona, a ranger station was a short drive down the road from Cynthia's camp. This is where she now sat talking to a detective. And then I come down here because I want to check on the weather. And usually I come in and I chat with I know Neil.

I've been here because I've been here enough times I know him. And then there's another guy Jackson I know from last November. So I just chat with people here find out what's going on so and I can then just let them know I'm here because I want people to know I want someone to know where I am. Yeah absolutely that's a good thing. Yeah because I'm out on that road by myself usually. So and I've always felt safe out there, and I have to be in remote areas, and it's not always easy, you know. So, but I've been okay out here, and I always go around that garbage. I walk the area, you know, I walk the primer kind of out on the outer edge, I walk down

that road. I check things out. There's a lady who comes through your ass horses and she rides out there. Because of her quote unquote illness, Cynthia didn't carry much modern technology. She was almost totally off-grid or as close to any of us could ever hope to get. Listen, we don't have a cell phone. I have a flip phone that I check once a week because I'm radiation poisoning if you call The cell phone number I gave you I check it once a week or so. I don't ever answer it Okay, Cynthia's camp was next to a remote sender offshoot road It was not really meant for street vehicles

The ground is dark and city in this area, the consistency of loose sand. Various types of coniferous trees provide cover, leaving open spaces between their clusters. A good place to camp if you're not afraid of the Arizona wildlife. On February 21, 2020, Cynthia woke up in her camp after her first night slumber at this familiar location. She had arrived around 6 p.m. the evening before and set up quickly. She hauled everything out of her truck, which was a lot of equipment when it was all set and done.

She set up her sleeping area, a kitchen area with several tables in a cooktop, and a spot to wash and dry clothing by hand. Cynthia's camp was spread out on a relatively large plot of land. In addition to the trees scattered across the terrain, dry shrubbery and rock formations made up the middle ground, serving as makeshift furniture. After making breakfast in the morning and relaxing a bit, she drove her truck down to the ranger station, chatted with some of her acquaintances, and checked the weather for the day. Then, she returned to her campsite.

And I'm continuing, I'm losing to the radio, I continue to just set my kitchen up and spread things out a little bit And then I thought I'd better gather wood and cover that up because of this couple days of rain You know, you know, so I'm walking out to the areas where I know there's some down trees And I gather wood and bring it back making a few stacks and then And I have a stack in my arm and I'm walking back and I'm kind of circling a little bit around back in my arm and I'm walking back and I'm kind of circling a little bit around. So I came up and I was like, there's a white thing on the ground and I just put out some tablecloths to dry because they were wet on some rocks.

But I'm going around and I'm like looking and I'm like that. It was seem like it was on rocks but there was something else there that I didn't really recognize something kind of greenish, and then I'm just looking at it, and I'm going, but I don't think I put anything out here. The small cluster of rock and crispy brown shrubbery was a bit of a walking distance from Cynthia's camp, but the white and green fabric stood out through the dried bits of foliage, even from afar. And I go walking a closer to sea, and I can see legs. There's green and then white here.

Covered by the inside and see if they see anything. But I see legs and the calves are exposed. And then I see shoes on them. They look like small feet, but I'm still a ways away. And I'm like, look at like, what is that? Because I collect garbage, I collect plastic bags, I collect torn things, you know, I collect styrofoam cups that are wished underneath rocks and stuff, you might pick it up. And I followed me, that's a big bag or something.

I get a little closer and then I see the legs and then I just go, oh my God. And so I go, I look at I go, man, because it looked like a lady to me, man, man, ma'am, ma'am, and I say it repeatedly, you know, but I'm still not close. And there's no movement. And I just didn't feel very good about the situation and so I just knew. With the exception of the boys and the movies stand by me, With the exception of the boys in the movie Stand By Me, nobody really wants to stumble upon a dead body. It's a traumatic life experience. One that our society has done a great job of shielding us from. Cynthia's state of mind went from inquisitive and curious to horrified in just a few steps, in just a few moments of realization.

When we are confronted with such a blatant and gruesome display of how fragile our own mortality is, when we're reminded that such a demise can afflict anyone no matter their age, sex, race or creed, it's almost impossible not to be thrown into a weird state of existential misery. Cynthia was feeling grief for a person that she'd never met, and she raced down to the Ranger Station to report what she had found. Desperately hoping, the corpse was not a result of violence. was a bear a Kaylen was. So I'm just like shaking and crying like I was just gathering wood and I think I found a dead woman. From the perspective of this

Cocoanino County detective Cynthia was just a strange woman coming out of the wilderness claiming to have found a dead body. For all they knew she was the one who put it there to begin with. And now was putting on some kind of act. It's been a lot. I've been through a lot. I've been through a lot recently. And you know, to do a fight this. Oh my God. It just, I still want to be alone. And this was my god. It's just, I still want to be alone. And this was my safety's. I understand that.

And now I know I'm going to sleep tonight. Despite Cynthia's seemingly genuine demeanor, the detective informed her that they'd need to obtain a buckle swap, a DNA sample, and that she definitely wouldn't be allowed to return to her camp that night. So Cynthia, without getting into it, you know, we're treating this as a crime scene right now. Yeah. So, and I think you probably figured that out. That's what the Wilkake said that. So we're going to need to, I'm going to talk to whoever's supervising the crime scene before

we let you go back there. Or can I direct you to pick something up for me? That's whatever it happens. We're gonna need to consult somebody. I'm not trying to put you out at all Yeah, yeah, but we got a and I haven't been up there yet. So I don't really know I don't know if your camp is considered part of this or not. I don't know I don't know. Okay, okay. I haven I haven't been out there. I'm just being honest with you. Because we're treating it as a crime scene and stuff like that. Would you object to providing us with a DNA sample? No. Okay. What about pictures of your feet and stuff like that, your shoes? Cynthia has obliged, realizing that this default decision to report what she had found,

may have landed her in the suspect's seat. She was, after all, the only person involved with the crime scene up to this point. Once the crime scene investigators got to the camp and retrieved the body for examination, they realized this person had been deceased for nearly a month, laying in this spot. Cynthia claimed she'd only arrived the night before. The corpse of this young female had been preserved by the cool dry temperature of the biome she was left in. Authorities in San Juan County have been searching for

27-year-old Sasha Krause for more than a month. We've conducted ground searches, canine search, aerial searches, and of course in her information into several databases. Krause, a member of the Farmington Minonite Church, was reported missing on January

18th. The question was was she voluntarily missing or were looking at a kidnapping? Last week, a camper in Arizona found a body near the sunset crater national monument. Obviously, when we find in a circumstance like this, we will reach out to other agencies if there are similarities in what we found and what they have in their missing persons report.

Through fingerprints, officials determined it was Krauss' body. Authorities in New Mexico and Arizona are investigating this as a kidnapping homicide. This is a unique investigation as the Samo County Sheriff's

officers looking at the kidnapping while the Coconino County Sheriff's Office is investigating the homicide. So when I got there, the body had been, as it had been discovered. None of our officers had touched her or changed positions. And so therefore she was lying face down. This is lead detective Jones from the Coconino County Sheriff's Office. She was in charge of tackling the homicide part of this investigation.

Her body was up against shrubs or some small bushes and I couldn't see her hands, I couldn't see her face, she was face down. I could immediately, something I immediately noticed was the way she was dressed. So I noticed that she was wearing a long dress and that her hair was up in a tight bun. Sasha Kraus was a young woman from the Lamp and Light Menonite compound in Farmington, New Mexico. The term menonite refers to an offshoot denomination of Christianity founded in the Netherlands. We stress simplicity, modesty.

We don't want to follow world's fashions. Our beliefs go back to the the fondant of our church in 1525 and Sir Switzerland. That is a Bible doctrine that we've held to very closely. And we find that's mentioned in the Bible a number of different times. So that is based on Bible truths. With regard to violence and self-defense, the Men and Night Church believes in what we know to be pacifism.

Our stance is we call it non-resistance. According to these beliefs, we would not want to cause physical harm to anyone. Now, I don't want to offend any potential men and night listeners out there, but after researching this religious faction, it seems the best way to describe it to a layman is to use phrases like, I don't know, diet, omnis, or omnis light? Many of the men and night and Dutch Amish beliefs overlap. But the Amish are just a little more serious.

They prefer a more concentrated version of the Bible. The key differences are in freedoms. In many Menonite compounds, men and women are required to wear plain clothes and head coverings. The specifications of this dress code vary from church to church. Men andites are generally allowed to drive vehicles and use flip phones. Most of the Amish bishops disallow these modern conveniences. Okay, so now that our little sociology lesson is over, I hope you have a better grasp on the type of community Sasha Krauss lived in.

Lamp and Light was a tight-knit and family-oriented community. Everyone knew everyone, quite literally. Sasha was fluent in Spanish and French, and she loved to read and write. Most of all, Sasha loved kids. She taught the preschool class at the Community Church every Sunday. In fact, the very evening she went missing. She was retrieving Sunday school books from the basement of the church and preparation for her class the following morning. Sadly, those preschoolers didn't get to see Sasha's

bright and grinning face on the next morning at Sunday School. The church was quiet and solemn as Sasha'sus, a young woman from a men-and-night compound in Farmington, New Mexico, was reported missing by her family as she failed to return home from an errand at the church. When campers in the assaults found a corpse face down near her campsite, she reported it to authorities who quickly assumed this was Sasha's body, based on her clothing and hairstyle. She didn't look like someone who would be near Sunset Crater for a hike. Later that night, maybe even early the next morning, we had learned that Sasha Kraus had

been reported missing. I learned about that case. I had seen a picture of her that was on the missing person's bulletin. So we suspected that it could be Sasha, but it wasn't officially identified to be Sasha until the autopsy, which was the following week. That evening, and I want to say we wrapped up our on-scene investigation some time around midnight and San Juan County Sheriff's Office in New Mexico was contacted. They came out pretty much immediately. We met with them

early the next morning and we sat down and had what we call a briefing with them. At this point, New Mexico's San Juan County had been searching for Sasha Kraus and any helpful leads for almost a month. The case had gone cold after they exhausted all their available witnesses. They needed more to solve the case. And now they had the help of another state's resources. More importantly, they now had a body. In cases like this, we will start with what I would call kind of the basics. We're going to look at the surrounding area. We're going to maybe investigate registered sex offenders in the area, for example, or anyone else that we had information that was at the community at the time. So yes, there were many people that we looked into.

All right, and did anything materialize into anything more than just a suspicion? No. If Sasha's murder had occurred back in the 20th century, it may have never been solved. The Menonite Compound Sasha lived within, posed somewhat of a problem. The same problem detectives faced before the development of present-day technology. No cameras. The church Sasha was presumed to have been taken from, had no surveillance equipment. So police only had the testimony of a few men and night community members who were in or near the church

at the time of Sasha's abduction. No one saw anything. Sasha may not have had an iPhone, but she did have a trackable mobile phone of some kind. Police were able to subpoena these records and see Sasha's movement throughout the day. And then we were able to see that the device left the compound area and started traveling west.

This activity began somewhere between 7 and 7.45 pm. Sasha had been picking up Sunday school books from the church in the compound that evening. She drove over to the building, parked her car, and may have never even made it to the doors of the church before being abducted. Wearing her blue-gray long dress with a white fleece jacket, Sasha and her device moved west until the phone disconnected from the network at 10.58 in the evening. Up until my involvement, they really only had two locations.

They had where Sasha had gone missing from and the area of four corners where her phone left the network. So once I became involved, we then had that third location where she had been found. And that's when the idea came up to do what we call tower dumps in those three locations to see if there was any common devices. Cell phone tower dumps are used all the time in not only murder cases, but burglaries.

If, for example, a police department was investigating the burglary of a jewelry store, they could do a cell tower dump for the time frame in question and see who was investigating the burglary of a jewelry store that could do a sell tower dump for the time frame in question and see who was in the area when the crime was committed. In this case, detectives now had a trajectory, a start, and an end point. They could now look at the records to see if any other devices showed up alongside Soshes as they moved toward North Arizona. How many devices unique devices hit on all three of those towers?

Just one. And who was that? That was Mark Gooch's device. Mark Gooch. What an unfortunate name. Detective Jones dug deeper. She retrieved even more information about the owner of the cell phone traveling alongside Sasha's.

His address, Luke Air Force Base. Why was Sasha with this man? Did he even know her? Twenty-one-year-old Mark Daniel Gooch worked on Luke Air Force Base in Arizona as a low-level Air Force mechanic. Detective Jones thought it best to catch him at his place of employment. She played it cool too. Sorry about that little trick there. It's just I didn't know where you'd be at.

And so it was just easy to bring in to your workplace and not kind of true. So I appreciate you coming in. Where are you from? I thought Wisconsin. We're appreciate you coming in. Where are you from? I was from Wisconsin. We're actually from North Carolina. Okay. I hear you kind of got an accent. Is that like in North Carolina accent or what's going to next? Probably from my family and my parents. Oh, okay. Just a quick question. Are you from the South?

Because we have family with the last name of James as well. No, not from the South. No. No. That's why I asked you where your oxen's from, because I want to be able to recognize where else is from. She began by trying to get to know Mark a little bit. How long have you been in the Air Force? I've been in the Air Force just over a year. Oh, I have not too long. Not too long.

Well, thank you for your service. First of all, I did not serve the military myself. So I really admire people who choose to do that. Yes, it's very selective. It seems like not a lot of people make it in, but I'm glad I served my servicemen country. Why did you choose the Air Force? What's that branch specifically? I knew the change and I was hoping I was made looking at Air Force as a and their force as a... How would I put it? It just fit my perspective of where I want to get my career. Got it. Do you have siblings?

Yes, ma'am. Six. Oh wow, really? Yeah. Okay, big family. Tell me about them, like how many brothers, sisters? Three brothers and three sisters. Okay.

Got it. And where are they at now? All over the country. All over? Yes, ma' over? Are you the young ones? Yes, ma'am. Okay. After making it through all the pleasantries, it was now time for detective Jones to begin setting her trap. I always ask people this when I start an interview. What are you thinking right now? Do you have any ideas why I detected what the sheriff's work office would want to speak with you?

detective with Sheriff's Court officer, do you want to speak with you? Um, all of the things I can think of is maybe I'll drive to bed to my body. Okay. But it's more like a good one. You know, Mark, I don't think that they send out high level at a state detectives to hunt down people who are going too fast on their motorcycles. We just don't have the tax dollars for that sort of monstrous undertaking. Also, good luck with that hobby, dummy. We just don't have the tax dollars for that sort of monstrous undertaking. Also, good luck with that hobby, dummy. Let's see how it works out for you in the long term.

Do you think you drive too fast on your bike? Just here and there. Yeah. I'm definitely going to slow it down. So you said you have a car, the one you rolled up into that is like a black jettah. Yes. Is that your car? Yes, ma'am. Do you share it with anyone else?

No, ma'am. Okay. And any time that you can recall, will you let anyone borrow either your bike or your car off-face? Nothing, ma'am. Okay. Do you have, you can get phone numbers. Do you have any other phones or just that one?

Just one phone. Okay. Got it. Then she asked him if he had traveled outside the state at all during a short time in the Air Force. Without giving him any information, she left the floor open for her suspect who either tell the truth or lie. Guch's cell phone records had already told them

everything they needed to know. They triangulated his movements throughout that day and the timeline was perfect. Just one of my friends a weekend about white-tailed mountains. I drove late pleasant couple times. I tried this one the last weekend, but they were closed. Yeah. How about that? If I'm understanding, you haven't really got to leave that looped effort space very long, right?

No. six when? I think you got here up to October. Up to October. Okay, so it's really only been couple months. In that last six months, have you traveled out of the state anywhere? Yes, and when I came down here, I drove my car through the stances down here. Oh, okay. So you drive from Wisconsin to Phoenix?

Correct. Anywhere else? You think that someone would remember taking a several hour long drive to New Mexico in the prior few months, right? So you mentioned that you hadn't traveled anywhere since you lived here. So again, you're probably wondering why I'm here. So I ended up talking about a coconut share office. Do you know where that's at? No, no. You guys have some coconut here?

No. I'm not local. No. Some from up north. Coconut, kind of, is like the northern part of our state. And I am working on homicide investigation. Okay. There was a girl named Sasha Krause that was killed.

Did you hear about that case? I was saying in the news. Yes, ma'am. Tell me what you know about the case. Uh, the space in the middle of the air zone like flash and her crows. Right, alright. So that's the case that I'm working.

Any idea now why I want to talk to you all? Probably because I was probably traveling up in the next area probably. Yeah, that's exactly it. Probably because I was probably traveling up to the New Mexico area probably. Probably doesn't even sound like a real word anymore after he said it so many times. So we've got these things called license flight readers. Okay. And you're being called a license flight reader in that area. So tell me tell me about that.

You were traveling and then you I'm a little confused because at first you said you you had in trouble but now did you go to New Mexico? Yes. Okay cool so let's clarify that. So when did you go? In January Okay, yeah. So here's the deal. So, here at the pool was picked up on that license plate reader in the general area on the same day actually, that's the issue with my missing. And so what I'm doing at this point is I gotta talk to everybody as you can imagine, as much as I do. Anybody who's in the area, anybody who could have seen something, did you know her or anything about the case? No, man, I have been from what I read online.

I started to know, fortunately, I know. Okay. You mentioned something about license plates scanner. Is there such a thing that you had in your possession? We utilize them, but they were not utilized in this case. I simply wasn't going to just start off the interview by telling him everything I knew, but I did want to indicate to him that I knew he had been in New Mexico. So why were you in New Mexico that day? I was planning on going to South-State County churches. I had traveled up to Flagstaff, and I was hoping that

the skewers were still open. I was really close to the coronavirus starting up. I looked through his phone quite a bit, and did not see any evidence that he actually attended those churches. I found nothing during the investigation that cooperated. He thought he wanted to church often.

As for the ski resort, let's remind ourselves of the time frame. Coach Claim, the ski resort he wanted to visit was closed due to coronavirus in mid-January of 2020. Remember when the shit started to hit the fan that year? It didn't happen until March. I don't know if it had to close at any other time in January, but I did confirm the ski resort was open January 18th of 2020. On the way back home, did you stop anywhere? Stop for fuel. We'll see, I filled up in Farmington. So I would just stop for fuel. Farmington So it is up for fuel I don't know, I made a genius

Full-time catalog that I should check Okay, so in my understanding correctly you don't remember stopping anywhere. No, is that fair to say? Okay, cool. I Let me go like kind of review what we talked about C5 and you questions for you I know you're on the water. Can I get you another water? I'm gonna use the stream. Yeah, let me. I drank a bunch of water before I came because I thought it was on your intense experience. Yeah, right. I was like, oh, look. Okay, let me crack that nail off for again. It's got a technically walkie there. How much longer is this going to take? Because that one

on my grandfather, we have a child close at a certain time. Oh, what time to close at? About 13. Okay, okay. Yeah, it's 10-50 right now. So it's trying to, we'll see. Let me go just like review, make sure I'll have an inquisition for you. Yes, ma'am. And then I'll get you some water and all else.

They tend to walk into the bathroom, something. Sure. Okay, thank you. Before even meeting with him, Lee Detective Jones knew she was making an arrest that day, and Gooch had just dug himself an even deeper hole in this interview room. Military life sort of forces people into close relationships. Mark Gooch was no different.

He had hobbies, a friend group, love interests, and a normal-looking life. Everyone knew him as a quiet, e-or-like, farm boy. This arrest would be a shock to the whole air force base. First of all, is there any Alexander, right? Yes, man. Deco by Alex Alexander. I go by Alex. Alex, okay. So do you know why I wouldn't want to talk with you? I do. Okay, so. So, Gouge.

Yes. So, why do you think I want to talk with you about that? Um, I'm assuming, um, because me and Arming Gouge, we, uh, we became pretty close. We met at basic. We were in the same flight. And then we went to technical together. And I think during test goal, that's when we really became, um, pretty close. We met at Basic. We were in the same flight and then we went to Dexco together and I think during Tesco that's when we really became pretty close friends. We've talked with a lot of people by now and so I thought that maybe you'd be somebody that'd be good to speak with. That's why I flew about four hours to come and talk with you.

Based on their evidence, investigators were certain that Mark Gouch was the murderer of Sasha Krause. But why? Why would this 21-year-old Air Force Airman, with his whole life ahead of him drive so far away to kidnap and murder a girl, he didn't even know? The whole thing was just unbelievable, especially to those who knew Gooch well. It just didn't make any sense. What sort of, tell me what you know about what a ledge to have happened?

From what I've read online and what I've kind of heard to the grapevine, he kidnapped a men and a woman. At first I didn't know men and I was a religion. I thought it was a place where so I typed it in my phone. And it came up with like Oregon or something like that. I was like, what's that word? But then someone told me he was a religion. So I came here, he kidnapped this religious woman,

drove her back to Arizona and killed her. And I learned later that there was also potentially Raven involved, which I learned here just about the murder and getting out. OK. Can you imagine being told just out of the blue that one of your closest friends has been arrested for murder?

Not just any murder, but the random murder of a woman taken from a religious compound. Things like that can shake the very foundation of trust people have in those around them, and Mark Gooch's former friends were no different. I remember the first day I saw him on my basic training. I was the third bed and he was across at the first bed. I saw him when I was like, oh, this guy's late. Pretty scary looking, right? Just because he was a little off, but as time went on, we just kind of labeled it as, oh, that's just good. He was raised on a farm.

His social skills weren't the best. And we kind of assumed because it was from him being raised on a farm. A lot of people are, but he was like from what we knew, he was like heavy in the back woods and just like pretty far from civilization and he liked to work, you know, where he was. So he didn't really have too many friends from what we heard or kind of knew. Guch was quirky and that's why his friends liked him. A stimulating group of friends is usually made up of people with varied backgrounds, right? He was quiet and very precise with his answers.

Even when simple things happen, I can't remember exactly what was said, but you know, I'm T.I. as they do mess around with us sometimes. But since we're scared, we're kind of like, we don't know that they're mess around, but he'd always be like, for everything, just like, yes sir, like, no man, this man, no man, and you said he grew up on a farm, so where life, he told me some of the cattle he had. He actually sent me a picture of one of his sheep. I think it was. Okay.

When we got home from text school. And the other thing I kinda remember from, you know, his home life was, he had two brothers, the other part of our members they would you know brothers roughhouse he told me something about the play soccer and steel toe boots which that would hurt if you got kicked. Soccer and steel toe boots we all have our weird little childhood memories but it seemed like Gucci's childhood was a little bit more unique than even his closest friends realized. Interestingly, Mark Guch claimed in his interview with the lead detective that he didn't really keep in touch with any of his siblings. But in

the weeks leading up to and during the actual kidnapping and murder, Mark had been in contact with one of his brothers. Mark and Sam Gooch had more contact in the few days around the murder than they'd had in years. You were detained. You weren't assessed back at me. That's pretty clear. At that time. And obviously now You were wrapped up in this whole mess. So Like I explained you back there, I think you have Information that's valuable. I think you can give us perspective on what's going on. I think you could shed some light on some of our questions,

is why or what or when you want to start from the beginning. And kind of, I believe you think I know more than I do. So with a very day Sasha Kraus went missing, January 18th, 2020, Mark Guchin and his brother Sam spoke on the phone for a combined hour and a half. This was the most the two had spoken over the phone in almost two years. This is going to be a conversation for me. And a good one, do you want to tell me about tonight? Yes, sir. OK. Do you want to tell me why you guys can have a great

cross the country to pick up again? Yes, sir. Do you understand why you're here in the room? Yes. Oh, and by the way, authorities accused Sam Gooch of being the person who drove from Arizona to Wisconsin to retrieve the 22 caliber rifle that ended Sasha Kraus's life. In a separate case, Sam pleaded guilty to the facilitation to commit hindering prosecution,

and he's on probation for that crime as of March 2022. But let's circle back to the day of Mark Gucci's arrest in April of 2020, nearly three months from the date of the murder. So during our little break there, I went and reviewed some records that I had. And you were sitting here probably thinking, and stuff, is there anything that you thought of that you forgot to tell me before

or anything you want to clear up? Oh, no. Okay. Okay. So, this summer, January 18th, when Sasha Kraus was killed, okay. Okay.

So you can imagine I've been working on this for quite a while now. Today being, you know, we're in April. So some of the questions I asked you today, I might not be answered too already. And so what I asked from you is just to be honest with me. Okay. That being said, I've done my homework in this case. You know, I've got lots of different records and things like that. And that's what I went back and reviewed. Some of the timelines that are not really adding out, I'm just going to ask you straight,

were you involved with Sasha Krauss' homestead? No, man. Did you abduct Sasha Krauss' homestead. Did you abduct Sasha Kraus? Did you know somebody who did? No. Did you know anything about her leaving that church? No. Okay. Did you kill Sasha Kraus? No, man. Do you know who killed her? No, man. All right. So from what you're saying, you know, What really happened on January 18th, 2020, was far more elaborate than Gooch led on. It was 8.30 in the morning. Gooch drove to Flagstaff where he claimed he wanted to check out that ski resort. But he obviously never stopped at the resort, which was open. He drove straight through Flagstaff before stopping at Cayenta

Arizona to grab some McDonald's. Mark Gooch arrived in Farmington, New Mexico, at the lamp and light midnight compound at 4.14 pm. He brought binoculars with him, and he began surveilling the neighborhood, all while remaining in sporadic contact with his brother Sam. He did this for three hours and 31 minutes. She did this for 3 hours and 31 minutes. Guch sent the very last text from his phone at 6.24pm. Sometime between 7.45pm, Guch snatched Sasha in her grey dress and white fleece jacket

and began driving toward Arizona. Sasha's phone disconnected from the network at 10.58 pm. It's unclear exactly when Sasha was murdered, but her hands were bound with duct tape and she was hit on the back of the head with the butt of Gucci's rifle. And finally, he was shot execution style. After midnight, phone records showed Gucci making a detour off the highway, where he dropped

off Sasha's body at 113 pm. For two hours and 21 minutes, his phone went off the network. He popped back onto the network a little after 3.30 in the morning and check through the security gate at Luke Air Force Base before 7 as if he hadn't just murdered someone. but yeah, and then I have to get up next morning to go to work anyway. The next morning Monday. I wanna make sure I'm sitting there. So you said you're getting home at eight or nine PM on Saturday night. Correct.

And then you're saying that's too late to go hiking the next day, Sunday. So did you do anything that next Sunday? Yes, I believe we went hiking or we didn't notice like a ride, I can't remember what it was for you. Okay. But basically that Sunday I made a normal motorcycle ride.

I got you. And then Monday you were toward. Correct. Okay. Now we're on the motorcycle adventure. So what if I told you that the time that you came in the gate that morning was 6.53 in the morning? We have a detective talking to you Sam right now. Oh, good.

In Wisconsin, okay. And so I want you to know that for this main reason, Sam's telling us some stuff, and you're talking to me, and I want to just make sure, you know, what both of you guys are telling us lines up. So let me get this right. You're trying to, you're talking the same about now, huh? So it sounds like I needed a lot of your kids to try to get into something. Well, I read you your eggs at the beginning of this.

Yes, ma'am. You know, I'd like to say a lot of your time. You would like to speak up the water? Yes, ma'am. Okay. So I'm not going to ask any more questions then. At this point, it was too late. Detective Jones had all the answers she needed.

Guch's best friend remembers the exact moment he found out about the arrest. Another friend in the group called him and broke the news. Yeah, she called me, I believe it was on the 21st and it was at 7.41pm. And she told me there's something bad it happened. She was crying a little bit so immediately I thought it was her family because I know she doesn't have a few family problems. Everyone does that.

And she told me no, it's good. And I was like, what? So maybe I was thinking like car accident. I know he rides a motor cycle. What were he did? So I was like, oh no. And then she said he was arrested. Told me to look up Luke Garforge face. And I just wanted to find out about the whole report that you guys took him in custody for murder. Pretty much like that's that's pretty much how I found that. Okay, and so how did you feel when you wrote that?

So back in Thanksgiving, I found out that a close friend of mine died back home and I felt it's weird, like, I believe it kind of feeling numb almost. It's just a weird feeling and I felt that it could suck the same emotion when I was told about Gooch, when I read about him. It didn't hit me fully until the next day, which I woke up to his mug shot and Surnut actually sent me his mug shot and I just pretty much cried, like, off and on the whole day. So did you cry about him being arrested or him being accused of murdering somebody? Um, probably a lot of both, just because you think you know someone. Super well, we did everything together.

Yeah. For something that's drastic to happen. So him to be arrested, number one, I haven't had a lot of friends. You know, we arrested for murder I'm not taking someone else's life. That's That's Zero to a hundred when the law caught up to mark Gooch It may have seemed to those around him like things went from zero to a hundred

But things rarely happen that fast. Bombs go off in just a fraction of a second and leave ruins in their wake. But someone has to build the bomb. Someone had to figure out how to wire it in a way that could create the destruction they desired. Mark Goouch had been working on the wiring of his metaphorical bomb for weeks. His calm, unassuming demeanor assured that no one would catch on until it was too late. 21-year-old Air Force Airman Mark Guich was taken into custody in April of 2020 for the murder of Sasha Kraus.

Despite the mountain of evidence against him, he proclaimed his innocence in the interrogation room and tried to do damage control. In addition to having his car detailed shortly after committing the crime in January, Mark asked his brother Sam to wipe his cell phone and Google accounts, something Mark Gouch had learned to do in his free time. These efforts were futile. The only question remaining for authorities was the motive.

So Mark's dismay, this would all be revealed through cell phone records. What I know a little bit about from what Sam said is, sounds like something's going on here as far as, like, maybe you have hard feelings against a man or a man's church or maybe like a grudge or something like that. Remember when he mentioned what his childhood was like? His closest friends knew only that he grew up on a dairy farm, in the quote, unquote, back woods,

they knew he had a lot of siblings. They knew that most of his siblings had spread out all over the country, and that market joined the Air Force to get away from the environment he was brought up in. What they couldn't have known was that Mark Gooch was raised as a menonite. The reason we're interested in this is because I've told you before, Mark indicated that he was going to survey

and let's have a manonite. You confirm that information and you basically said that that's been happening for about five years. I do not recall the same thing. Well, our conversation is recorded in videotape. I'm sure. And I asked you how long he's been talking to me like that. Mark had been creeping around the men and night communities and surveilling them since he and his brothers left the church five years prior. He was keeping Sam and his older brother of Virginia State Trooper in the loop about it all.

On January 12, 2020, Mark texted his brothers while surveilling a Menonite church near Luke Air Force Base. Even this morning's surveillance was boring. A bunch of old people without much left to live for. And clearly not the men and night people we grew up with. Sad to say, another disappointment. A few months later, in March of 2020, the group chat was active again with more men and night news.

So, your brother, Jake, the police officer, indicates he just gave a men and a ticket. That was a group text, right? To you and Mark Houch? Correct. Right. And what was the date and time for that? March 14, 2020. 8.48 AM.

And what was Mark Houch's response? Fuck yes. Fuck yes. Fuck yes, and how many exclamation marks? Four. Alright, and then what's his next text on Mark Gucci? I hope you treated M like shit. I didn't hear you. I hope you treated what? I hope you treated M like shit. E.M.

Thank you. What was your response? Ha ha, hell yeah. Tell them the VA, stay police, doesn't like cultists. Ah, that's embarrassing. When you're forced to read your own bigotry allowed in front of a courtroom. And now, millions of other listeners too.

This little trio was like the three men and I must get tears out for revenge. Is there like you grab the men and I church is there like how to ask this question first of all do men and I call the police on something about happens like to do Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like affect anything, but unfortunately not, they do not. Okay. They keep it all in community and try to make sure nobody doesn't say anything. Unfortunately, it's how it is. Yeah, it's not what I'm worried. So, you know, first person to tell me that, it can get pretty bad.

Mark Guch and his brothers were angry at the minute night church, something they considered to be occult, not only because of the way they did things, but because the Guch family was never fully accepted. His parents joined when they were just beginning to have children, and according to Guch, those who join versus being born into the community are treated differently, like outsiders. From the Gooch brothers perspective, there's no good reason anyone would want to be part of a church like the Mennonite religion. So it was a person on a reason I don't want to try not to be a part of the night church. I don't want to get involved in trying to cover up a crime.

Yes. So that's illegal. Oh, the irony. How did Detective Jones keep such a straight face? What do you think should happen to the person I did that to Sasha? Yes, I was like, what do you get in there? Well, if somebody killed her, like I said, what I'm investigating is my job. And trying to gauge, because you just mentioned how you don't like the minimized cover things up.

Correct. So I'm asking you, if we cop the person who killed or what, what should happen to? Well, you should probably, uh, it's almost like Mark Gooch realized in that exact moment, how ridiculous his previous statements had been. Guess what, Mark, you may not have had any good ideas as to how to punish the person responsible for Sasha's murder, but the criminal justice system sure did. The airman convicted of killing a men and a woman was sentenced today to life in prison after emotional statements from his family and the victims, both members of the men and night community. Why was she kidnapped murdered? I will never understand that in this life.

But God in His ultimate wisdom and goodness allowed the devil's evil plan to proceed. So He and His goodness will not allow her efforts to be wasted. And so as the sentencing will be pronounced, we just write for your leniency on it that Mark made, the current society, and be a contributing member to society. Firstly, I'd like to express my sincere condolences to the deceased's family.

I'd also like to express my thankfulness for the love and support of my own family in this difficult situation. I've been a judge for quite some time and prior to being a judge, I also handled criminal cases as an attorney and I unfortunately have had to handle as an attorney and then preside over as a judge, a number of homicide cases. They're always difficult. This case, I thought long and hard about it, and I think this case is truly the most senseless case I have ever presided over.

Mark Gooch and Mark Al alone, despite his brother's potential involvement, was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Someone so desperate to find belonging somewhere, ought to find it within the prison walls, right? Mark had a deep rage towards the Mennonite community, one that didn't dissipate through the years since his departure. His rage grew into something ugly and complex, leading him to spend all of his free time off base, surveilling innocent strangers. Soon, a hateful group chats and stalking weren't enough for Mark. He had to take

something from the Men and Night Church. He had to hit them where it hurt. The victim was random, but he wasn't. He chose a young, bright Sunday school teacher. A lost the community would feel deeply. Listen, not everyone's gonna like you. It's a tough lesson to learn, believe me, I know. But at some point in life, you have to grow up and realize that it's okay, accept it, move on. Even after his conviction, Mark Gouch refused to admit guilt and plans to file appeals. Just like his decision to get a lawyer, these efforts will also go in vain.

Though the cinder floors of the Arizona-Kenniferous Forest covers tracks impeccably. Mark Guchas tracks are now set in stone. The evidence is out there for all of the world to hear. And guess what, Mark? Nobody likes you now. Nobody. How's that feel? Well, we hope that was a pleasurable experience for you. And if it was, please join plus, become a sass hole finally.

It's less than the cost of a pound of steak. What do you need steak for anyway? I mean, who needs those pesky calories, right? Go vegan and join plus today swordscale.com slash plus. Oh my good day, man, the myth, the legend. So, these are pairs of the most cliche, single, or smell that you've ever heard, that I swear I would never do. For a time caller, long-time listener,

Mike, you are so talented, and amazing, and all of the things that you already know. But what I can say that you do not know is that you and So you still have helped me through the worst and the difficult times of my life. Looking forward to your show and the new episode coming out got me through many of my toughest days. And for that I think you. So the vlogers and I called was to share with you that I was just with me to episode 217 and you mentioned the next store app.

And I was also asking both of our, because I have recently discovered this app to pull myself and I find peer-to- peer reading comments and posts of my neighbors telling each other. I mean, it really is unbelievable. I'm here to learn reading comments and posts of my neighbors telling each other and it's really a zone for me. And it's sadly becoming a new hobby of mine, so thank you for bringing this to light. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

And here I better get off to bed, since according to you I'm 31 and officially considered a boomer, so it's way past my bedtime. Here's your host, thank you guys for all that you do. 1 ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ � Thank you. you