Sword and Scale - Episode 223

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

First looks can lead you astray. That was the case for young Ryan Waller when he was mistaken as the killer of his girlfriend rather than another victim. After being accused of murder a years-long fight in and out of the courtroom begins. The family of Heather Quan will stop at nothing to get the justice they seek.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sort and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Hey Ryan There's a dead girl in your living room. He's dead. Yes. I want to know what happened in your house last night So before we get started today. I want to make sure that you are aware of the news, because a lot of people skip this part of the episode. We have a new perk coming out real soon, and it's a set of four different designs. They're going to come in stickers and pins, and depending on which level of plus you're in, you get either all the stickers or all the stickers and all the pins.

Those levels are $10, $25, and $50, and up, respectively. You still have time to switch to a higher tier and switch back down if you want to get the perk, but you want to still get grandfathered in the $5 level. You are welcome to do that. Just make sure that you do get one month build at the higher level and your perk will go out. They're already going out. A lot of you are already getting them, but we want to leave enough time for new people to come in and get it if you want it.

Anyway, this is season 9, episode 223. Enjoy! 1.5% 2.5% 2.5% 2.5% 2.5% 2.5% 2.5% 2.5% 2.5% 2.5%

2.5% 2.5% 2.5% 2.5% Perhaps you recognize that opening clip, and you think you know the story we're about to tell you. It has become a little bit of an internet phenomenon. It's made the rounds on the YouTube True Crime channels. All the big ones. But let me assure you that you have no idea. We dug deep on this one.

A lot deeper than usual. Way back into the Phoenix PDs and Maricopa County Superior Court archives to bring you the whole story behind the kid interrogated while having a bullet in his brain. Oh and it goes far beyond the clickbait interrogation video. This is the story of a man who couldn't let the petty differences go. The story of a kid who suffered a horrible tragedy and lived to be wrongfully accused. The story of a girl who lost her life way too soon. The story of a wife torn between doing what was right and covering for her family out of fear of overdue and finally achieved. It's the day after Christmas, 2006. Ryan Waller finds himself in an interrogation room a little after 5am.

When I say, finds himself, I mean it. Ryan seems bewildered and unaware of where he is. A white jumpsuit provided by the police covers everything except his feet, hands, and his bloodied and bruised face. After staring at a blank wall, he idly plays with the handcuffs attached to the table. He sits in silence only broken by periodic wails. With a painful sounding moan, Ryan stands up and tries to walk away for getting now, he's handcuffed to the table.

He's halted, mid-stried by his attached arm. A confused look flashes over his face before he becomes distracted by what appears to be a blank sheet of paper. What Ryan didn't know was that he was the number one suspect in a murder investigation. The victim was 21-year-old Heather Marie Kwan, an Arizona State University student with aspirations of becoming a lawyer. In the days before Christmas, Heather seemed normal and everything was fine. Her friend Christina recalls the day of Christmas Eve. I went to her father's house, picked her up and went to her home. We walked around for a bit

and you know that we did it cookies that day? That misspelled cookies, and then I took it back to her father's house. I, we went inside and we both took a small nap because I woke up and she was sleeping. And I just laughed and got on with my day. After that, she went to see her father. She came to my place of work, early afternoon, between one and three, so something like that. Heather was attached, Mary attached to her pillow and she had left it in my car. So she came to retrieve it and it was a very quick thing I gave her my keys. She went to my car and got the pillow, came back to give me

the keys back and I just reminded her that on the next day, the 24th, she must do we were supposed to meet with my mother to have a dinner, family dinner. These days prior, we're more of the same for Ryan too. His mother said that they had plans for Christmas as well. They did notice something a little bit off about him though. Other than that, he was the son they always knew. The change in attitude was welcomed over his usual bossiness. When Heather failed to show up for her family dinner, her father was a little worried, because it wasn't like her to be late, let alone not to show up at all.

So he tried to call her. I tried and so did everybody in the party. Christmas Eve came and went, and neither Heather's father nor Ryan's mother had heard from them. Ryan's mother was worried enough to call police. I call to file a missing person's report. For again? Yes. Ryan's mom didn't know his address because he had just moved.

Officers attempting to help her found a speeding ticket from the twelfth that listed his new address and gave it to her. She and her brother went to see if anything happened to make Ryan miss Christmas. And then as I understand it, you and he both tried to get an answer at the door for quite a while. Yeah, and my brother actuallyped the fence. I think Anna was going to go out and go too far. He went around the other side of the house, looked at the windows, looked in the front window. And we were pounding on the door and stuff.

I thought I heard him. And so I ran, I just, I say that, I'm going to call the police. After banging on the door for what seemed like 15 minutes or more, no one answered. Ryan's uncle jumped the back fence and tried to look through the windows to see if anyone was inside but couldn't see anything. Finally his mother called the police to conduct a welfare check. Well they started looking around and it wasn't more than five minutes or less but they

didn't tell us to move move back to my car back. The officers checked the house and found a woman deceased on the couch. Officers peeked through the windows and saw what they believed to be. A body. Can you imagine calling the police to check on your loved one? And after a couple of minutes, they usher you away from the home, form a barrier, and after a couple of minutes they usher you away from the home form a barrier and call in backup? Certainly not a good sign. When they finally made their way into the home, they found a gruesome scene. There were large amounts of blood randomly throughout the

home. The walls, the floors, and the bathroom had evidence of blood and a poor attempt at cleanup. Other than Heather's lifeless body on the couch, the home was mostly bare. It was an eerie scene made all the more peculiar by the fact that in the home with Heather's body was Ryan. When you find a dead body and a man standing over it, it's easy to assume he did it. Ryan was now in an interrogation room being grilled about the events that led to Heather's death. Listen closely to these next clips. No. You've never seen any kind of cops show lawyers show when you kind of show. Yeah. Okay. Who hasn't seen cops CSI or law and order?

I mean hasn't everyone at least seen one episode of one of these shows? It seems like Ryan only agrees with the detective just to get him to stop asking the question. His unusual responses to questions would continue. So tell me what happened. I don't know. I just want to go to sleep, man. That's it. Remember what happened to your nose? There's a big chunk out of your nose. I don't know. Some grab you? Wait, frank with somebody? No, I need to go. I need to go back to sleep, man.

I'm just tired, man. That's it. All right, don't get to go home. No, no. Should go to the doctor's or you'll shake her. Me? Yeah. Why?

That? Yeah. Is it bad? I said that's what I'm bad. I just want to go to sleep, that's it. If you have a concussion, you know, you just sleep, that's what the doctors would say. He seems oblivious at times and coherent at others. One moment he's aware of his injury and in the next, well,

what happened last night? I don't know. You don't know. I really don't. I just want to go to sleep, I'm going to go to sleep. What happened to your face? I don't know. You told the officer just a few minutes ago that someone hit you.

Do you remember who hit you? I don't know. I think it was Heather. It was an accident. I forget why. First, he didn't know what happened. Then he said, Heather did it. He's clearly concussed and confused, but the detective pressed on to get some clarity because Ryan couldn't keep his story straight.

Heather. You're saying that's Eric's girlfriend? Uh-huh. Or your girlfriend. Heather? Yeah. Morning. Heather's your girlfriend. Heather? Yeah. Marron. Heather's your girlfriend. All right.

What's Heather over last night? All right. Heather did this to you. What? Your eye. Who did that to you? Alicia. Alicia did that to you now. Um, square. Not even lying, I swear. Okay. Why would Alicia do this to you? Why? I have no idea. Were you mad at Alicia? No, I don't know why. I don't know why. She probably did it on something. I don't know. She could hit one on something. I don't know. She could hit one on something. I don't know. I don't know, man. With that answer, the detective just stared at Ryan and bewilderment. He couldn't get a handle on him. So he tried to impose, just have serious of a situation he was in. Just in case, it was all an act. I don't know.

I just want to go to sleep. No, that's it. Hey Ryan. Huh? Huh? There's a dead girl in your living room. She's dead? Yes.

Heather? I don't know. I want to know what happened in your house last night. When the detective told Ryan the girl on the couch was dead, his demeanor changed. He suddenly seemed engaged and started maintaining eye contact. The girl on the couch is dead. I don't know if she's having a cold, she's dead. Well these people came over, which she and his dad was shooting arrow boar in darks. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. They hit me and Heather. What was that?

You went Heather with her and then we had. And that's it. Richie and his dad tried to break in, the back. Richie and dad, his dad? Mm-hmm. Who's Richie? Uh-huh. Well, you obviously know him, you know his name by your name.

He is a little bit. Was he a roommate of yours? He used to be. And they hit you and they hit you? Yeah. Now, it's Richie that hit you? Not Heather? No, Richie and his dad. Richie and his dad. They hit you.

Yes. Why? Because they're trying to get their stuff. I don't know why and they had some kind of Bowen arrows They each had two revolvers and they didn't laugh any shells Okay, you just said they had bowen arrows now they have revolvers. That's right now they have revolvers They have revolvers. Yes, and then what happened? Then they shot us those

After learning Heather was dead the whole ordeal seemed to come back to Ryan This time it was Richie and his dad who broke in and shot not just Heather, but Ryan also They shot both of you. Yeah, where did shoot you at? I not just Heather, but Ryan also. While the scenario is hard to believe, a kid shot in the face who lived, it would explain his behavior and even his confusion of words and names. Ryan was getting frustrated. He's trying to tell the officer what he wants to know, but the answers are coming out all jumbled. and I really don't know, I don't know, I can tell you anything I swear. I want you to tell me the truth, that's all I want. Ruchi and his dad came there, and I don't know why, I don't know why. I don't know why, but they put me in sleeping holes, and like, they put me in sleeping holes,

put the arrows and shit, like, I lived through that crap. You're telling me, you're all over the board here, number one. You're seeing bows and arrows, you're seeing revolvers, and you're saying that some other thing, and they're saying they shot you in the eye. Okay? They shot you with a revolver in your eye. Yes.

And that's is it a BB gun? No, it was a real gun, man. It was just a revolver. They shot you in the eye with a revolver, you wouldn't be talking to me right now. How do you know? It was most likely you be dead. That's where I thought too, man. I really don't know. Okay. I really don't know and I just want to go back to sleep and try to go back to bed.

You're not going back to bed. What happened to Heather? I don't know, man. I really don't know. You're now saying Richie and his dad shot Heather. Is that true? Yes. And he shot her with her revolver. So you got shot first?

And what happened? Did you follow the ground? Yeah, I was trying to get out of the shit. And I couldn't. Did you call 911? Uh-huh. Did you see if she was alive? She was and shit and I couldn't. Did you call 911? Uh-huh. Did you see if she was alive? She was sleeping still and said, I just let her sleep.

She got shot in the side of the face and you let her sleep? Yes. This does not make sense, Ryan. I know, it didn't mean to you, man. I'm sorry, I didn't know she was passed now. That's because I got shot wrong once too and I was going to pass out. Okay, this is now, not before. With all the confusing answers to the detective's basic and straightforward questions, I'm sure he felt like he knew less than when he entered the room. But finally, some of what Ryan was saying started to fit together.

And if he was telling the truth about being shot in the head well, he would need medical attention immediately. The detective leans in close and inspects Ryan's face. What he thought to be small superficial wounds and a really bad black eye, he now realized was something more. The detective leaves the room hurriedly. You can hear him call someone in the distance. Ryan just lays his head down, who leaves not to have to answer any more questions, seemingly unfazed by where he is. I got the part of the problem.

Take a look at it. They're going to probably take me to the hospital. Take me to the hospital? Yeah, we're going to take you to the hospital. Why? Well, if you've seen your face and what you're doing things, it doesn't make sense for you right now. We're just going to make sure you're okay.

I don't know about to bed, man. That's the problem. If you have some kind of head injury, you shouldn't be sorry. Okay? The fire department came in and asked Ryan about his injuries. A lot of his answers were, I don't know. But he did say that his face had been like that for a couple of days. The detective dismissed this and sent him on his way to the hospital,

even in that short amount of time Ryan forgot where he was headed. A small caliber bullet entered the right side of his nose. It passed through and exited the left side of his nose. It then lodged and his left eye. Ryan had bone and bullet fragments embedded in his head, causing bleeding behind his ocular cavity. At the hospital, they rushed him to emergency surgery. It took the Phoenix PD over five hours to realize that Ryan's injuries were actually one injury.

He was not the culprit. He was a surviving victim. Maybe Ryan's story about this richy guy and his dad was true. After Heather Kwan and Ryan Waller missed their respective family Christmas dinners, Ryan's mother called police. A welfare check led to the discovery of Heather's body and Ryan still in his home. He was seemingly caught red-handed. He was beaten badly, which leads to the immediate theory that they got into a fight and he killed her.

But in the station, detectives can't get a straight answer from Ryan. It's not that he's evading the questions, but more like he genuinely doesn't know. At times, his responses are just amalgamations of questions the detective asked earlier, with the names exchanged for new ones. Once Ryan realizes Heather is dead, everything clicks. All the little cogs in his mind start spinning over time, and he lays out an unbelievable story, or some guy named Richie and his dad came in the back door and shot Ryan in the face, and Heather in the head. Only then did they understand why Ryan was acting, so unusual.

He had a bullet in his brain. Now, we've listed him as a victim. I don't know if anybody knew what happened at that point in time. Now I'm not going to make any assumptions. There's a number of scenarios that could have happened. The police were way off on this one. I'm sick. I'm just devastated. My son is in there, he has to go through surgery.

He has bone fragments and bullet fragments in his brain, bleeding in the brain, and I don't know if I'll ever see my son walk out of there again. They were further confused by the other person in the home that night, Ryan's roommate, Alicia. You were not at the Glen House then on the 23rd or the 24th. And then you came back on Christmas night. On Christmas night. At about 9 o'clock. And they took a while for Ryan to open the door to me and I was like that.

This was the top walk of the walk. You said the lights were all out? Yeah, all the lights were up in the house when I walked down. Okay. She walked into the pitch black home and even in the low light she could tell. Ryan was beat up. Yeah, well, before I went into my room, I walked, I was walking down the hallway and I had a big bag of hall and I had my big bag

presents that I had. So I'm all watching and walking in and like he closes the door and since he closed the front door everything I'm gonna have some pitch black and I'm all right. I can't see a thing. I was like I can't see him front of me. It's like okay, so you switch to the whole light right here. It was just Blood everywhere. Yeah, and I was just kind of like Worst roommate ever where when he came on the light and I looked around It was all what the hell happened. He's like don't worry about it. Don't worry about it Don't think about it. I was like no seriously. It's going on. What happened? Why is there always blood everywhere? He's like I just you guys trying to get into the house. I took care of it I was like okay, you know

whatever getting into the house might take care of it. And I was like, okay, you know, love her. As far as she could tell, Ryan was acting normal despite his injury. And although the blood was concerning, he assured her everything was fine. When she asked, he only said, don't worry about it. But because she was disgusted, she unwittingly began cleaning up a crime scene. Did he comment at any time before the police showed up about Heather or anything?

No, he says she was looking on the couch. He didn't say anything to me. I just sat there and I was crying. You know, it's going on. I kept coming out of his room, I kept asking him and he just said anything. I remember, I'm not sure if this really happened, but I'm thinking about it. He came out of his room and he tried going over to Heather and he was just talking to her. And he was like, Heather, wake up from it. Please wake up.

Heather wake up. Let's go back to the room. Let's go sleep in the room. I'll wake up. Please. And you know, I figured she was just a growing woman being a girl. It's like, you know, I see a growing, moving girl. I was like, oh, I see, I'm a cow right now. Alicia stumbled into the aftermath of a murder, but because Ryan was alive and well and

was walking around, she dismissed it. She was completely unaware that Heather was dead on the couch. She did somewhat corroborate Ryan's claim that two guys came in and shot them. The officers just had to find the right two guys. But who would want to kill Heather? that sense. Okay, come on Ryan. Who would he? Heather and Ryan had a large circle of friends, and a lot of current and former roommates. Each one knew another piece of the puzzle.

Me and this guy, Richie. Richie got the house from his sister's next boyfriend. And so me and Richie moved into the house and we're crying. We'll need it a place to stay. So I was like, you know, yeah, no problem. You can come stay with me. I let him come stay with my house, you know, as a friend. And me and him get real tight, you know. After Ryan moved in, there was instant tension between him and Richie.

When Richie couldn't make rent for one month, Ryan agreed to pay his part for his room, the master. Richie reluctantly agreed. And then, next month, month. Ryan moved in and kicked Richie out. Ryan moved in and kicked Richie out. Ryan used to have a lot of beef like they didn't like each other when Ryan moved in and he didn't get along at all. I honestly think he has something to do with this. So it seems to come by the house, like, waited 90 minutes, we find him creeped around the house, and I mean, I honestly pretty sure I'm gonna say this one time

because I thought he was so angry getting it. Right. There were more instances of Richie coming back to the house after he was asked to leave. He would just be stooting around, coming into the back door. He's never like to use the front door. Once again, he was in Ryan's room. When he was sleeping, Ryan woke up to him in his room. Richie had left. He told me about it. And then after that, he probably, not about a week or two after,

maybe a week after that. I had heard someone come in through the, for the sliding last door in the back, the Arcadia door, the Arcadia door, and I came around the corner and pointed a shotgun at him because I thought it was an intruder and Ryan was right behind me with a handgun. This was just one incident before a former roommate, Eric Eric Ginsberg moved out in early December. After he was gone, Ryan told him of the other times Richie just showed up and walked in. Yeah, he had told me that Richie and his dad had showed up and he let him in, you know, you remember let him in like the other front door, the front door, so they actually just

came to the door. Yeah actually just came to the door Yeah, they came to the door and so Ryan I guess open the door ask them what they wanted and they went to the living room and sat down And Richard I guess got up like he was gonna use the restroom and walked down the hallway and went to Ryan's room And Ryan heard something in his room, you know, someone in his room, basically, and went to get up when Richie's dad Larry Sr. had pulled out a gun and pointed at him and said, you're not going nowhere. Ryan wasn't one to back down from confrontation.

After all, he had kicked Richie out of his own house after he couldn't pay rent. Ryan was 19 and he felt like he was 10 feet tall and bulletproof. Of course now we know that's not true. And Ryan pulled out his gun and they had a standoff. Richie comes out the room with something in his hand. And then notices they're just standoff going on. Ryan tells his dad to put down the gun and Richie to put down whatever he had and leave. And they had a little confrontation and then finally they just gave up drop that they had in the last.

In a daring attempt to perhaps rob Ryan, Richie and his dad left defeated, disgruntled and perhaps humiliated. Then Ryan added injury to insult. Did you pick up or did Ryan describe anything about that situation where there was anything physical that happened between him and Richie? I heard that he had kissed the whippedome, and I'm pretty sure he did. You know, like when they were turning around to leave, Richie probably said something to Ryan and he just popped in one time and then they left. No one but Ryan Richie and his dad knew for sure if he actually pistol whipped one of them, but that didn't matter because Ryan had told his friends, and true or false it was making

its way through their larger friend group. Okay, so you didn't see any blows happen between Ryan and these other two guys? making its way through their larger friend group. The beef between Ryan and Richie couldn't get any beef here. Richie was kicked out of the house and it pissed him off. He tried to rob Ryan, but Ryan got the upper hand. Then he pistol whipped by the Richie or his dad in the head. If you talk to Ryan much since he's been out of the hospital.

Yeah. What do you think of what he's saying? Well, I think what he's saying. I got a lot of things to keep there. I'm going to get down to the button. I wrote. You think Richie is the one to kill him? Kill the other? I wouldn't put a pass to him. So what would be the beef between Richie and Ryan? Right. This is what, when did that happen? Oh, like two weeks before the murder. I said, I said, While being thwarted in a robbery attempt and being let go without involving the police, should be considered an act of grace, Richie wasn't beyond petty grudges. Richie Carver and his father Larry were,

let's just say, known as petty criminals by the Phoenix PD. But they didn't know much else, let alone where to find them. Enter, Brenda Mowbly. How did you become acquainted with Cheryl Carver and her family? We met at an apartment complex that we all lived at. And about how long ago was that or how long

if you known Cheryl? About 15 years. So you've known Richie for about 15 years? Yes. Brenda was a reluctant friend to Richie's mom Cheryl and a bit of a confidant. Because I tried to even cut Cheryl off, not be her friend. And she's a nice guy, but she just comes with the riffraff.

Because of this, she found herself being witness to years of the carver's wild lives. Well, he has been violent. He's beat up his sisters numerous times. Beat up his dad. There was another time where, you know, but she did, I mean, Sheryl's own words where he tried to break my arm.

She, like I said, she would call me in different times that they had concentrations in their home or situations where she was, you know, inferior and there was one incident where she called me and told me, you know, she needed help and that Ritchie was had tried to break her arm. There were times where Ritchie and Mary fought and either one had pulled the gun on each other. Larry and Richie. The men of the Carver family had seen more than their fair share of hardship, all being

repeat offenders and whatnot, and spending time in and out of jail. Richie will spend his life in prison, he didn't stand a chance going up in Mary's home. Richie and his father, Larry, definitely fit the type that would commit home invasion robbery and then murder when it didn't go according to plan if they ever really had a plan, that is. Now the detective would just have to find them. It would be well over a month and a half before Richie would be found and arrested, but the state's case was not perfect. So while they continued to search for the elder

carver, they tried to find more than just the eyewitness testimony of a kid who got shot in the head. Then suddenly, they got a strange phone call from Cheryl Carver saying she has information that they may want. They went to go meet her at Brenda Mowbley's house. After Brenda convinced her to tell what she knew. We found a doctor. Who's there? My husband is with you. OK. And the guy that lived there, now I know his name is Wyoming. Tell him that he didn't have to be gone. And told him that I'm going to get married.

Her accounts of incidents between Richie and Ryan were much different than the others, but with the same result. The rumor headed afterwards, he was telling everyone that he's just a bit... I don't know if it was just a ritual, but it's their ritual. I'm not absolutely positive, but the rumor was going around the keep just a bit, at least, Ritchie. Her story jumps forward in time to the 23rd the day before Christmas Eve. When Larry

barged in through the door. Larry walked through the door and said, get my stuff together. I fucked up. I just came to people. I got a good attitude. And he grabbed some shirts, he went to the drawers in the bedroom, got some things out of there, and he was gone in ten minutes, so that's what it would be rich you'd tell you. You could say anything. Never said a word from that day until the day you got arrested. She claimed that Larry Burston and exclaimed, I fucked up, I killed two people,

then frantically packed and left for California. It wouldn't be until he came back that he would tell her some of the details. So tonight at the 24th and there, you know, I was here, he had begun on running. This is what Larry told me. I was here to go on running. This is what Larry told me. He had to go on running. Yeah, Larry was playing the guitar for him.

Right. And he said, so, I'm telling everybody that you have a pistol with this arm. And he said, here's what just happened. And he hit Ryan in the face with the gun. The gun went off. The bullet of a gun only hit the floor in the brick of shade. And hit Ryan.

She goes on to say that Ryan was accidentally shot. Larry shot him again just to make sure he was dead, and because they didn't want any witnesses, he shot Heather twice in the head as she coward on the couch. Did Larry say where this Ryan and this girl were out when they got shot. Larry said that Ryan was in the kitchen. And the girl was on the couch. I don't need the witch couch. Everything was lining up. This was the missing piece that tied all of the others together.

There was one detail, though, that gave detectives pause. Cheryl claimed that the murder took place on the 23rd, which didn't make sense. The police weren't called until the 25th. The events match. You know what took place at Ryan's house. What took place prior to that, leading up to it. Which is the whole thing about this pistol lip thing and all that.

You know, that's right on the money. But the days that it's taking place as far as the actual incident goes, are you real sure? Because the police don't get called until Christmas. This happened on the 23rd and Larry told you about what had happened as soon as you got got there back to the house She was confident that she had the right date because it was the same day as a relative's birthday But if this was true it meant something

Unbelievable The detectives were in shock, not because of finally having enough to prosecute Larry, but because they were just realizing that Ryan had been in that house for two days alone with Heather's body bleeding, swelling, his brain struggling even to think against the pressure of the shrapnel in his head, unaware of how much time had passed, or even the events that had transpired. Are you telling us the truth, the whole truth, the nothing but the truth? Just laying it all out there and letting the chips make fall or are you trying to protect Richie? I have to ask.

I have to ask the rest of the day. Okay, Larry comes home after being gone for less than an hour. I did something stupid, bad, I fucked up and I killed two people. I did it, him saying Larry did it, and he's told you that Richie didn't. Wasn't born a tricker, is that correct? Those were Rich the key told me was exactly what he said. I fucked up like just two people. So Richie, Richie heard his dad confessed to you that he killed two people.

Yes. Okay. Okay. Do you understand that, and this is not a decision for just me and Detective Dalton to make, but Richie still has culpability in this whole incident. You do understand that right? Because he's there when it happens, yeah. If she knew this the whole time, why didn't she come forward sooner? It seemed like a tactic to try and protect her son Richie at the expense of her husband Larry. But she had a different explanation.

You will not testify against your husband in court. I saw what? If you make it. If you make it. So you're at this point, you're saying you're really in and I just stand. But you're saying you're really in it, and I understand. But you're saying you're really afraid of the guy at the moment. She was afraid of her own husband, and what he might do if he found out that she talked

to the cops. She probably wouldn't have said anything except Richie was in jail for a crime she knew Larry committed. She confronted Larry, and Richie was in jail for a crime she knew Larry committed. She confronted Larry and Richie was arrested. He did it to me in a heartbeat. He'd do it to me in a heartbeat. Talk about father of the year. Rather than turn yourself in and suffer the consequences, he would let his son, Rodin Prison, armed with Cheryl's account, the police picked up Larry the following day, February 18th, 2007.

Richie would be charged and tried and convicted for first-degree attempted murder, first-degree murder, first-degree burglary, aggravated assault and misconduct involving weapons. He was sentenced to life in prison for his role in the death of Heather and the attempted murder of Ryan, about four months shy of two years after the fact. Larry, although in custody, would be much more difficult to bring to justice, and it would take another five years to do so. The case against Larry Carver was built entirely around the eyewitness testimony of Ryan and an oral record of past incidents with Richie and Ryan. That is until Cheryl Carver called the police with information.

She claimed Larry confessed to her in the days following the murder. She kept a quiet out of fear of Larry until Richie was arrested and he refused to turn himself in just to save his son, saying, he'd do it to me in a heartbeat. Talk about a strong father's son Bond. Now with Larry and custody, it was time to get his side of the story. No, we could go to the university or something. Yes, yes. Unless we could just just about something. Yes, that's the thing right there. I met him one more time.

I thought he'd know people that house. I'd met him probably two or three times. I would have been telling you anything about him. Other than my family, he called one time, asked for my son if he was still living for his own wife and my son would go out and said that she had saw his gun on the back porch. So we went down and he came down to get my gun and I said sure. So I took him down there.

The guy who got really weird, I mean just weird. I don't know how I'd say it. But we asked, we searched the house, no problem. When we asked him, we could search his room, got really defensive and stuff and we started off towards Mook, and I guess he's the richest one. And the guy pulled the glass. I grabbed his, put my hair on his shirt, and we just go, let's go, it's scared me. Because the guy just, he's just scared me. And I didn't know him just, he just scared me. And I didn't know him, and he just scared me.

So I told him, let's go. So I don't know him. Nothing about that house. Besides where you just told me. Yeah, that's it. So I told him, yeah, I was telling him that. After that incident, did you go back? Never had that night.

I don't know what he's into, you know? Like a seasoned low life, We denied everything with ease. But immediately his true colors began to show and as it turns out he's not that bright. He just confirmed what they believed to be the motive. Yeah, I know. I know. And I'm telling you something. He ain't no murder. No matter what. I don't know what you're Everything is a legit thing, but he ain't no murder. Okay, we talked to you. Okay. Okay In it at this point He's saying you get it. Well, he's lying. He's out soft because Need to one of us get it. Okay. I don't know why he's saying that.

He's never going to be scared if he's saying something stupid like that because he didn't do nothing. I didn't do nothing. I know he's not going to let me die. I didn't do anything to him. I'm 64 years old. I'm a biographer. I've been around crazy shit.

You go to my rigor. I'm not a killer. I'm not a her. I don't. I've seen the worst of. You go to my rigor, I'm not a her. I've seen the words in the word, touch me. It takes a lot to give you inside. I can hold personal product. You know, I just want to do my son out of there.

I'm just curious to my son. I don't know that dude. It's just not us. We may look like that, but we're not like that. It looks, you's a secret. It doesn't have true story. Okay, so why would he even tell us this? I don't know why it's telling me where he's trying to hide.

I don't see him telling me something like that because there's no reason to do that. You know, I see a standing right there. I don't care what he's saying right now. That didn't happen. You know what I'm saying? It did not happen. Even when confronted with the claim that Richie was talking and said he did it, he remained steadfast.

Deny, deny, deny. I'm sorry, this shit comes into me for a shit because I know him or I'm not mine, so I ain't not damn done wrong. Okay? If you told your wife you killed these people, right? I don't know if I would mind it, so I'd end up there and then grow. Okay. If you told your wife you killed these people, right? Would that be true or false? I would never tell her anything like that.

Why would I tell her something like that? I don't know. I'm asking you a question. I would never say anything like that. Would your wife had any reason to tell us that you came to her? Oh, no fucking reason at all. She had no reason at all. If she came to us today and told you that you came to her and said that.

I remember I could think of it. I could tell you, but you know, honestly, right now this one time, I could not tell you that she would not do that. You know, I don't know her no more. What can I say? I don't know her no more. The claim that Cheryl too said he did it, he tried to explain away as her just trying to get him into trouble.

You see, they were having some problems lately. What is the relationship between your and your wife right now, huh? Fuck, bro, you're just fucked up. You see, they were having some problems lately. I'm just trying to get my best friend out of here right now. But my best friend and her have been fucking around. When you see the other guys, you see them looking at each other. There's that eye contact that I'm gonna be, don't think I'm looking. They're a lot. And she gazes in his eyes, she gazes in her eyes. And, and, and, and,

that's what I'm gonna decide. They, they look nervously. They both of me, they look at me and they look at me. It wasn't a flirtatious look. It was more like a tomato in there a few times. It was kind of thin. He was so distraught as of late that he even attempted suicide. I had sleep last night.

I cut my arm and I found the bloodbush a shot. I said, oh, right. And I lay down. I was thrown. I lay down. Not every stretching leg got just work. But I did. And that was just the other thing. I'm saying, other things. You know, you're here. I'm not raised. Of course. I'm saying. I'm a rage of porcelain sense. Geez. Larry Carver couldn't catch a break. I mean, his wife cheats on him with his BFF. He tries to kill himself, but somehow he fucks that up. He's cursed to do everything half-assed. You ever meet this type of person? Gosh, they're everywhere, aren't they? Even when he tried to kill Ryan, he only horrifically and irreversibly blinded and scarred his face

and permanently damaged his mind. Didn't kill him. The kid that you wanted said to house, right? I pulled him out of here, right? When the house was right with Ritchie. He's telling us it was you that shot. I can't help them. I need to shoot him. I had no reason to shoot him. He did not belong to me. You know, why does he count you that? Why does everybody count like that? I have no idea that everybody's telling you they did it.

I don't know what to say. I got to know what to say. Did you shoot him? No, I did not shoot him. Did you shoot the girl? I did not shoot him or the girl. No. Do you have any reason to shoot anybody there?

I have no reason to shoot anybody there. Did you tell us never there? I don't know what it's like to be on the screen. Can you money out of that? I didn't think no money was never going to happen. Dude, I don't know those people. You understand? I have morals, I'm living a guard, Larry doubled down on denying everything and even tried a little bit of an innocent routine claiming he had morals in his heart, but the police just weren't buying it.

They were done, however, listening to his lies. They left the room to let him stew in his own filth, and to go get a pair of handcuffs. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it.

I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it.

I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. And with that, you might expect the story to be over, but it's not.

There are years of suffering and fighting ahead for the family of Heather. Cheryl Carver, who supplied the key testimony connecting Larry to the murder, left town, and it wasn't clear if she was still willing to testify in court against Larry. They needed as much info as possible so they went back to see Brenda Mowbly. She left town because she was afraid of what was gonna happen. She just changed her mind a few times. Then she kind of, she just took off and moved up to Wyoming or Wyoming her plan or her way of thinking when she was up there turned into that she was just going to wash my hands and walk away from it, which I felt again, you know, as leaving me, you need to be in shit that she brought

to my house. Then she even, her anti-law, anti-authority parts kicked in and started doing the, you know, they can't force me to testify. And again, she was just going to wash her hands of it. And then now she's come back with the idea that Richie's young enough and he can still be saved and I still don't think that she's sure she's going to testify against her. She wasn't going to talk to the police anymore, meaning you. She wasn't going to talk to the police anymore because you know the Epikopps twist everything around and they're trying to get me to bird my son.

Cheryl changed her mind and was not going to testify against Larry, nor was she going to talk to the cops anymore. If they were going to convict her son, she wasn't going to cooperate with the case against Larry. I guess basically just what are your plans at this point? What do you mean what do I plan on? Well are you going to follow through with what we started? You know I guess that I'm going through a roller coaster of emotions right now, so I am not making any definite decisions of this story. He could tell she was backing out, so he tried to appeal to her sympathy.

You know, some of the information that Larry told you that you related to us, he would not know if he wasn't there. So, the validity of what you shared with Detective Dalton and me, that's not in question. Because like I said, if he hadn't been there, he wouldn't have been able to supply some of that information. I know. Because nobody else would realize how hard it is for me to make a decision against my husband, even though I know him as well. Even though he's responsible for killing a young girl.

I realize that. I mean, that's... We're not... Again, you know, we're not talking... Some minor infraction here that... I understand her. You know, there's a young lady that's dead. I know.

And, um, she's not coming back, and I'm sure... You have a three-daughter, you would understand, what her parents have been through and are always being going to be going through. And that's the difficulty. With Cheryl citing her marital privilege to not testify against her husband, the case was at a standstill. It wouldn't be until December of 2012 when Larry would stand trial. That's how long it took the family of Heather Kwan to change the law, to have an exception added to the Marital Privilege Statute that compelled a spouse to testify if, at first, they offered the information voluntarily. The defendant and his son, Richie Carter, were mad.

They were mad because Richie had been kicked out of his house where he was letting with some friends. I'm glad. They were mad because Richie wanted his stuff back, including how they'd want. They were mad because some cars that they had left at the property were towed. They were mad because within a week or so prior,

they entered the victim's home uninvited at night and were chased out. That's the best. They were mad because there was a rumor that one of them had been pistol whipped by one of our victims, and were mad, and they wanted revenge. The defendant confessed to murder on December 23, 2006,

to his wife, but she's taken six years, victims, and the family of Heather Kahn, to receive justice. We are here six years after Heather Kahn was murdered, and Ryan Waller got a bullet in the face, six years for justice. For Heather Kwan's family and for Waller. The Carver family protects itself.

The law changed and justice can now be served. And at the end of this trial, I will be back to ask you, tell this man that some petty little disagreement over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and go on was Ryan's unreliability. At the police station, Ryan suddenly presented as confused and disoriented. And he proceeds to name several people that may have been involved when he was asked why he shot Heather. Heather hit me in the face. Heather did this.

Christina was there. She was there with Aaron. Alicia did this. I swear. I don't know why Alicia did this. Regina's dad came in with both an arrows. Regina's dad came in with revolvers. A guy came in and he shot up the house. Heather's dad shot her. Heather's brother shot her. You know what Eric did it. I don't know how he did it but Eric did it. Now about a month after the shootings in this case,

Ryan Waller was interviewed again by detectives and was suddenly firm in his assertion that Richie did this. But he did waver as to, one, whether someone else was even present, and if someone else was present, whether it was Richie's dad or someone else. Ryan told detectives that he might be confusing it with another incident where he had encountered Richie in his death,

presumably the Obama incident. And so in the prosecutor's stand-up and dramatically tells you that Mary Carter still did this time, I humbly ask you that you reserve any judgment that you may have until you have heard all of the evidence. And I am confident that once that happens, you will find that Larry Carver is not guilty of these offenses. Six years later, Ryan took the stand and faced Heather's killer. I heard something at the back which I assumed was Richie anyway Richie or Larry and as soon as I turn

get up off the couch and get into the area where it turns on the diorama I can see that it's Richie and Larry from at least 15 feet away through the Arcadia door and he's trying to slide it off the hinges or whatever to the door and I just remember that it opened like six inches. That's when I just saw a gun flying my face and I got shot in the face. After all of Cheryl's stalling, they still had Ryan's testimony. Also Larry being the braggart that he was couldn't help but run his mouth in jail and to a cellmate. His cellmate named Sean claimed Larry confessed to him too. The jury came back with a guilty verdict for first-degree murder, first-degree burglary, aggravated assault, and misconduct involving weapons.

But they did find him not guilty of a theft charge. Go figure. When he was Don Waller, I'm the father of Ryan Waller. My name is Robert Kloen. I am a Heather Kloen's father. He's cold-hearted. He has no conscience. He has no remorse. The only thing he's sorry about is that he didn't, as Ryan said, put one more bullet in his head. It's been six million years of silence that we've had to endure. It just take everything in and hold it. I didn't realize that I was trying to call Ryan during the day. He was laying there pleading and Heather was shot dead on the floor.

It took Mary to the same hospital where he was born, St. Joseph's Hospital. But my wound came to a certain end of the brop, starting on December 26, 2006. I sent the phone call, like the Phoenix Police Department, to my life upside down. I laid there and sat there and I must rion. The fuck he had to go on for a brain surgery, not knowing if he could ever... rock again or talk again or have any type of function of life. The pain that I felt,

and the pain that I still feel today, should be enough to kill somebody. He had to learn how to eat again, he had to learn how to rock again, how to talk again. I should have been there to protect my little girl. To give her a fine chance, every time I look in my son's face, I see little holes scars in his face. I see a scar on his head where they had to remove a portion of his brain.

It was hard not to think about what these two men did to Ryan and Heather Kwan. Every day I drive home, I still look for her, and I still wish that one of the states that don't really want to finish you. Come out. It's a high-doony. Larry Carver is a cold-blooded killer. He has no place in society. He doesn't care about anybody else but himself. And I think that Larry Harvard deserves nothing but natural life and prisons. So he never has a chance

to cause this kind of pain towards anybody ever again. There's no one nobody can help Heather ever again. There's nobody can help Heather, but we can help the future of victims. So because of that, I'm asking you, that you give Larry Carter the maximum synthesis possible of natural life. He was not counting on the resilience of our family. We went as far as changing the law The pain Richie and Larry caused was evident in the family of Ryan and Heather, but not more evident than when they had the state law amended, and then had a court make it retroactive, allowing them to force Cheryl to testify. A testimony that likely sealed Larry's fate. The law became known as Heather's Law. Although I didn't die, he left this scar on my head, and he's the reason I was scarred

in my head, and I'd be taking medication every day for the rest of my life. And I have one eye now, and none of that really bothers me. It's just hurt the bothers not the fact that he might be Heather until I go to hell I think you should just give him natural life. Larry was sentenced to spend his natural life in prison. On the Arizona inmate database his release type is listed as sentence, expiration. A far better end than he gave to Ryan and Heather. Ryan would be forever plagued by the loss of his left eye, his brain damage, and most of all by the loss of Heather. Her memory lives on through all the justice served by Heather's law.

Cheryl Carver divorced Larry and changed her name. In the end, she did the right thing, but only because she was forced to. Long overdue justice was finally served after years of waiting. Richie and Larry will spend the rest of their lives in two different prisons a few hours apart. The lives of their families were irrevocably changed, and all because Richie and Larry couldn't let go of a petty grudge over a reputation that was already utterly tarnished. Alright that's going to do it for this episode. Thank you so much for joining us. If you like the show, make sure to check out plus sword and scale.com slash plus. You can also give us a call, let us know what you think.

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