Sword and Scale - Episode 257

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

Sue Taynor was worried about her 21-year-old daughter, Jessica Sacco. She was bipolar, depressed, and vulnerable, having just gotten out of a bad relationship. When Jessica moved into a one-bedroom apartment in Urbana, Ohio, she began to open her home up to people who were a negative influence on her. Soon enough, there were six people living in the small unit. By the end of March, 2012, there would only be five.

What is this sound you're thinking of? Something big. On February 14th, discover the rebel behind the music. But what do you think? I want to make music that change the world. What's on the... Bob Marley, one love. All in theaters February 14th.

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. She was pleading with me to slash her throat, slash her wrist, do something. And I told her, no, I can't do that to you. Good morning. Good afternoon. How you doing? If you're the type of person that usually skips the intro, you may not want to do it this time because we have some very important messages about the future of Sword and Scale. By the way, that's what you're listening to and this is season 11 episode 257. Here we go.

Okay so this is kind of important. We're launching our new website and app soon. If you're a plus member and you're listening to this on an RSS feed, that feed will no longer work after this episode. We're getting rid of RSS feeds for a number of reasons. Now, RSS feeds are great for freely distributing audio, but they're not really made for, and really weren't intended for, premium paywall protected content. Unfortunately, they make it easy to pirate our content.

Not to mention the fact that podcast apps usually profit off of splashing a bunch of ads over content you've already paid for anyway. So we want to curate that experience and bring it to you all in one place in this beautiful new website and app. Oh, and there's also Sword and Scale TV, which is debuting soon on it. So look, we've spent over a year working to bring True Crime fans this incredible new community and we want you to be part of it. So make sure to head on over to swordinscale.com

and download our new app when it becomes available and become a sasshole. Make your friends jealous. Be better than everybody else. Puff your chest a little bit. There you go. Music You ever hear that term cut the apron strings? It's a phrase that encapsulates the idea of letting go. Every parent is aware of this idea, I think.

It's part of life. Allowing your children to grow up and become independent individuals. Hoping you made all the right choices and hoping they'll do the same. Much like a mother bird pushes her fledglings out of the nest and onto the brave new world, encouraging them to learn to fly on their own, cutting the apron string symbolizes the moment when parents must release their tight grip on their children's lives. It's a significant transition from a state of dependency to complete independence from childhood to adulthood. Few would argue against allowing kids to become independent and venture out on their own as they grow and mature. It's a vital part of their development.

It's necessary. This little push from parents often creates young adults with solid self-reliance, responsibility, and the ability to make choices and face the consequences of them. It's a natural progression, but it's worth acknowledging that sometimes this journey doesn't always end in a picture-perfect way. Parents are often forced to sit back and watch as their children make the same mistakes over and over again. Trust me, I was one of them. My poor mom. That woman's a saint. It's not always the best thing for parents to swoop in and rescue their children from every emergency that they may find themselves in. But sitting back to watch it all unfold, knowing you just can't help, there's nothing you can do. It can be heart-wrenching.

Many parents watch their children in the throes of addiction, for example, knowing that their child must hit rock bottom before they finally decide to make a change in their lives. All parents can do is sit back and wait for this to eventually happen. Now, the story we're about to get into isn't about drugs or addiction, but it's about a family who is forced to watch their child continue to make dangerous decisions with no regard for the consequences. This story, Jessica Sacco, living on her own. Jessica wasn't moving out of her family home for the first time, but she was moving back from Urbana, Ohio after a relationship in Florida took a bad turn.

It was the start of 2011, and after returning from Florida, Jessica would be moving into her own apartment, a duplex. Her mom, Sue, agreed to help pay rent, a mere $360 a month for the unit. Urbana is about 40 miles west of Columbus. It's a small town with a little over 11,000 residents. Jessica's new apartment was in a small, cream-colored building. Two doors sat side-by-side for each of the two separate tenants. The ripe old age of 20 may seem a bit old to be worried about sending your kid out into the world. But Jessica was medicated, her bipolar disorder, and had extremely low self-esteem. These things paired with her naive outlook on life and her lack of experience could result

in disaster if Sue didn't keep an eye on her daughter. After all, their relationship was already on a treacherous footing due to Jessica's mental illness. Jessica had already shown her repeated poor choices in friends and in men. But Sue didn't want to push Jessica away even further. Sue didn't want to push Jessica away even further. Sue didn't want to be bugging her all the time or sharing too many opinions about how she thought Jessica would be living her life. So she towed a careful line. Soon after Jessica got settled into her new one-bedroom unit, she began seeking out new

friends. one bedroom unit, she began seeking out new friends, but because of her lower social attitude, Jessica found it easiest to make new friends through Facebook. Her profile read this. things. I love animals and going to the beach and taking a walk. I like cooking good and delicious meals. In my spare time I like to read, write down my thoughts and my poetry. I love playing video games and doing puzzles. I'm also family oriented. I love kids and I love helping others. Maybe in an open ear to people is what makes me a good person. I'm an understanding person as well and try to help solve problems. I'm talented and intelligent too. I do not take bullshit and no drama or whining. You cross me, you will wish you never did. If you don't, you're good." Well, that escalated quickly.

Jessica's grade school and high school friends recall that Jessica was bullied a lot, but she was too shy to stand up for herself. Now that she was an adult and she had the internet and social media at her disposal, she could create a facade of confidence and strength. Because we all know that that's what social media does for us. At first, Jessica tried several dating sites, but nothing really panned out. So she began putting more and more of her time and energy into Facebook. Soon enough, Jessica connected with a young man named Matthew Puccio.

Matthew was a 24-year-old dude who lived in Texas and was a self-proclaimed juggalo. Now these folks, we've talked about them before in other episodes. You may have heard of them. But just to give you another rundown, the term juggalo or juggalette for women, is used to describe the dedicated inner fan club of the hardcore hip hop group called Insane Clown Posse, or ICP for short. They perform what is called horror core, a form of hip hop that includes themes of the supernatural, a cult, and psychological horror in their lyrics. Think music for Jerry Springer fans.

Here's Matthew's childhood friend, a guy named Andrew Forney, also a self-proclaimed juggler. self-proclaimed jugular. Before they reached middle school, Matt moved away, and Andrew and Andrew lost contact until about 2010. He said that after he lived with them for a little while, he ended up getting moved into a group home until he was 18. He claims some incarceration during that period of time as well. After he turned 18, his brother, who was in the Air Force, moved him out to Virginia. And he lived there for several years, and he's moved around a few more times since then." Matthew had been shuffled around all his life and continued those nomadic tendencies into adulthood.

Just like Jessica's tone-shifting Facebook bio, Matt's bio said this, I believe in God, Shangri-La, and the dark carnival. I am a proud father of four wonderful kids. I may not open up right away with people because they usually don't ask the right questions. My life is an open book, but I don't mention my life story unless it's a person in need or fam that needs help keeping their hatchet high. I'm a 13 year old wicked clown who takes the psychopathic views, beliefs and music very seriously and if you don't like it then you can fuck off. I'm honest and blunt but very true to the woman I love. I don't play petty high school bullshit.

So if you expect sympathy over some dumb shit, you may not get it from me unless I know you well enough to swing a hatchet for. Woop, woop. MMFWKCL. Which in case you're wondering stands for Much Motherfucking Wicked Clown Love. Yeah, that's what we're dealing with folks. And about that, uh, whoop whoop. You gotta help me out, brother.

Whoop whoop! Whoop whoop! There we go! There we go! Yeah, that's the Juggalo mating call, I guess. We can't really be sure. It's really confusing. We should get David Attenborough in here to explain.

By the way, Jessica was enthralled. The two quickly connected over bands like Korn, Crossfade, and, of course, Insane Clown Posse, who once again, do not understand how magnets work. I'm not kidding, look it up. Anyway, Jessica, clearly an emotionally immature person, quickly took the honorable role as jugulette and began referring to Matt as her jugulow husband. The clip you're about to hear isn't Jessica herself, but a young woman from the exact same time period in which Jessica was becoming involved in the Juggalo subculture. Let Ming-jo's thumb look taller. And someone had to give a look.

You know, people, you are kind of outcast, never really got along with them, but they don't really care. Big family for outcast, that's what it is. In case you couldn't understand her, she said that ICP is basically a big family for outcasts. Just a few months after Jessica began talking with Matt Puccio online, he made a trip from Texas to visit her in Urbana, Ohio. The two hit it off romantically. Suddenly, on Facebook, Jessica was a lifelong jugolette, and Matthew was her juggalo husband. It was official, Facebook official.

When fall was turning to winter of 2011, Jessica's family noticed a shift in the way she was interacting with people online. Because Jessica was the kind of person who posted her every thought and feeling on Facebook, it was easy to see when something was awry in her life. Just a year prior, in 2010, Jessica's Facebook posts were lots of statuses like this. stupid, restless. Now I live for God and as I turn my life around, I think of how I was back in the day. And I thank God my sister and my brother-in-law and Jake and Leah for being there for me through thick and thin. Thanks guys, love you all." But by the time the holiday season of 2011 rolled around, and Jessica was in the throes

of her new relationship with Matt Puccio, her statuses and comments began to die and keep to herself and quit causing drama. Anyways, I'm happy and she ain't. So whoop whoop. The very next status said, Well, my days just keep getting more complicated to explain and yesterday the day before that really caught me off guard. So last night I bought a bottle of good wine and a couple beers and got drunk at home and my life was peachy keen. So all I can do is just say wow and fuck my life. What should I do? God please help me overcome my fears and please tell me what to do. I need you right now more than my own kid and everybody else. Please forgive me. Woop woop

to all my lows and lets." Given that she was basically pretending to be married using online slurs and publicly wishing people dead, Jessica's mother began to suspect that she may be off her medication. You think? And to make matters worse, she had a sneaking suspicion someone was living with her daughter. This was not part of their agreement when Sue originally told Jess she would help pay rent and get her on her feet. When Sue drove over to Jessica's house to confront her one day, an altercation ensued. Apparently Matthew, also bipolar, surprise prize, had convinced Jessica to get off of her medication. At the end of their screaming match,

Sue asked Jessica if this is what she truly wanted. And Jessica said yes, so Sue left, disappointed. If Jessica wanted to be on her own, with this quickly boiling pot of problems, then so be it. 21-year-old Jessica Sacco had recently secured her own one bedroom apartment in Urbana, Ohio with the help of her mother, Suthaynor. Jessica was trying to get back on her feet after a messy breakup and had to struggle her whole life to choose and keep good friends and boyfriends. Jessica was medicated for bipolar disorder and her mother knew how she could get if she went off her meds. So it was important for Sue to keep an eye on her adult daughter. By the holidays of 2011, Sue had begun to distance herself from Jessica after confronting her at her apartment, holed up with Matt.

During that visit, not only did she confirm that Jessica now had a roommate, but she was calling this guy, her husband, and he had convinced her to get off her bipolar medication. Fast forward to Thursday, March 29, 2012. Sue had become very concerned about her daughter after realizing she hadn't heard from her in seven days. When Sue went to Jessica's Facebook page, she saw that Jess hadn't posted a status since March 22, exactly seven days prior. The most recent statuses on Jessica's timeline were... Hmm... Alarming. To say the least. On March 19th, she wrote this... I need to focus more, but all what I'm dealing with and going through isn't helping none. It's time to get rid of things.

Stress, anger, frustration, etc. More walks and exercise." The most recent status on March 22nd, read, Happy and dangerous mood. This is when I need a bottle of wine and a hug and a girlfriend to spend time with. Bored, send me your best bottle of red wine, smiley face." Sue decided to drive over to Jessica's apartment and make sure everything was okay. When she got there, no one answered the door.

It was locked. So she let herself in with the spare key. I mean, she had paid for it, after all. As soon as she pushed the door open, a decaying stench hit her like a brick wall, assaulting her lungs. As the outside light hit the dark and dank apartment, Sue could see the disaster inside. Flies buzzed all around the room. Maggots crawled on crusty food stuck on dirty dishes. The carpet was stained and crummy. Disposable cups and bottles were toppled over every surface.

Boxes, a lamp, a TV, and other clutter was pushed into the far right corner of the room. It was just an absolute train wreck. Of course, this scene also included the obligatory Mountain Dew bottle. You'll always find one of those around when there's a juggalos. Sue made her way through the debris, covering her nose and looking for her daughter. But it was pretty obvious that no one was home.

Sue came upon the bathroom door, tried to open it, and found it locked. She looked through the crack under the door to see if anyone was in the bathroom, but it looked empty, so she left. It wasn't until the next day that Jessica's landlord went inside and got the bathroom door open. Well, it turns out that Jessica was inside after all. She'd been in the bathtub, something that Sue would not have been able to see from her vantage point. Jessica was dead, and she had been murdered in a most gruesome way. Shocking revelations about a gruesome murder in Urbana where a woman was dismembered.

Now five people were arrested and our Jessica Hefner spoke with a woman who said she took some of those suspects in claiming the killing was in self-defense. She's now live with us with more. Jessica? Well, John Powell, we're still waiting for three of the people accused in this Urbana murder to be brought back to Champaign County. But talking with one of the accused friends, she said the victim's ex-boyfriend killed the woman to protect himself. Puchio and two of his friends were apprehended in Hamilton. While in court today, I met with a friend who said the three stayed with her before being arrested. She asked us to hide her identity, but told me Puccio said he killed

Reisako in self-defense because she plans to kill him. She also told me why he said he dismembered her body. He just said that he did that just to making it where it couldn't really be found because, you know, he's scared for his life.

Like I said, that boy wouldn't really even hurt a fly. By checking the Facebook pages of each of the accused, we learned that they're all members of the Juggalo family. It's a hybrid gang. The FBI has it has it's eye on. And as a woman and fellow member

told us today at court, the ex-boyfriend of the victim was believed she wanted him dead. So he acted first. Police say Jessica Reisako had been dead for eight days when they found her dismembered body in a bathtub in Urbana. Police moved quickly, collecting evidence, and arrested five people the next day. By looking at the victim's own Facebook page on the day of her death, she said she was

angry but calm. We also learned she considered herself a member of the Juggalos, a rapidly growing gang according to the FBI. So was her ex-boyfriend Matthew Puchio and four others accused of killing her. Puchio was arrested in Hamilton along with two others this weekend. In court today we spoke with his friend a fellow Juggalo named Linda. She didn't want us to show her face but said she allowed Puchio to stay with her after the alleged murder. She told us Sacco threatened to kill Puccio when they broke up so he decided to take her out

first. That's why she says he shouldn't be in jail. I think that they should allow him to go. I mean that boy he wouldn't even hurt a fly. You know the only reason why he did it was a self-defense. If I was him, I would have probably done it too. Oh, wow. There's a lot to unpack there. The news anchor said that five people were arrested for Jessica's murder.

You may be wondering how on earth police unraveled what actually happened here and tracked down all five suspects so quickly Well, let's rewind back to Jessica's falling out with her mother Sue toward the end of 2011 Shortly after Sue discovered Jessica was no longer taking her bipolar medication Jess and Matt's blazing romance turned into a foresum. Matt invited another couple in a similar scenario to move in. They were nomadic, living off of social security, disability, and or unemployment. You know, us. Anyway, they needed a place to stay. Oh, and they were Juggalos too. The man was Matt's longtime friend, 25-year-old Andrew Forney, bringing

with him his wife, 25-year-old Candace. I've moved around a few times to myself. I left California in 2006. I went to Galena, Kansas. I was living there with my brother and grandmother. I moved to Hawaii in, I believe it was November of 2006. I moved back to California in October of 2007, lived in California until March of 2008, at which point I moved back to Burlina, Kansas, and lived with my brother for several months. I then moved into O Sage Beach, Missouri, lived there, was back and forth between there and my brother's house for a little bit. I left Missouri to move up to Michigan in

June of 2010. I lived up in Michigan with my mother-in-law and her husband until December of last year, at which point I moved in with Matt and Jess. Remember, this was a one bedroom apartment. The front door opened up to a small living room. The kitchen was back toward the left, with a hallway separating it from the living room. The kitchen was back toward the left, with a hallway separating it from the living area. And the single bedroom was off to the right-hand side of the kitchen, next to the only bathroom. It's hard to imagine Jessica willingly allowing all of these people

to move in to that tiny little apartment. So at this point, Matt had moved in with Jess. Matt hadn't seen his friend Andrew in about a decade and he had never met Andrew's wife. Jessica had never met either of them until they came down for Thanksgiving of 2011. Here's Candice talking about the first time she and Andrew met Matt and Jess in person. It was just all the right Thanksgiving and we were trying to figure out if we were going

to move down there or not. I don't know who offered it. I don't know if it was Matt or Jess at the time, but all I know is that we were going down there to see how things would be. Did Jess know that these people weren't just visiting for Thanksgiving, but were scoping out her place to see if it was a good place for them to live? I don't know, but I'm guessing probably not. In all likelihood, it was Matt who offered Jessica's apartment to the fouries.

What was Jess gonna say? What was she gonna do? Andrew and Candice were fellow juggalos. They had nowhere to go, and Matt probably used this to guilt Jessica into saying yes. How could you possibly let your fellow juggalos and juggalettes go hungry and homeless, Jessica, you monster? You absolute piece of trash. So anyway, the first time Andrew Forney and his wife Candace came down to Ohio to meet Matt and Jess, they stayed for a week. Then they drove back up to Michigan, grabbed all of their stuff, and drove right back down to Jess's apartment in Urbana, Ohio.

They just moved in, just like that. It wasn't long before it became clear that this many personalities stuffed into a very, very tiny space, only a couple hundred square feet in size, was not going to work. At first, I got along, but then we started, I don't know why, but Jess and I didn't get along very well. I tried, I don't know what happened. So the friendship side between you and Jess fell apart once you guys moved back down here. How long would you say you guys were friendly until it started turning bad?

About, I think, a week when we moved back down? Okay. With four grown adults living in a one-bedroom apartment full time with no jobs, things were bound to get a bit tense. The few bits and pieces you've heard thus far are from Candace and Andrew's post-pley interviews. These interviews stipulate that you must tell the truth or your plea deal is off the table. Now we'll hear from everyone just after police found them using cell tower records, hiding in a home in Hamilton, Ohio. This will be fun. Here's the man we've all been waiting for. Matthew Star, with two Rs, by the way. Puccio. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know? I don't know. Cool. I was just putting hands on a high for now. Is it the house where you were at? Yeah. 318 North Love Street. So you moved in there?

Yeah. Until about my own place, I situated it. So then, of course, they just do it. You got a little one together? No. No, I used to have four of them. They died recently, so I'm trying to get the feeling. Where was one together? No. No, I used to have four of them die. They sent me some child at the funeral. Where was I at?

Texas. And then her older brother's a kind of dying team. What happened there? She died of a rupture of artery in the brain. And was you there or not? Did they ever cause that? That's rough. And then Jacob, my son, his mom shook him too hard

and he's dying from bleeding from the brain. Where's he at? Texas as well. Is the same? It's good. Wow. And all that's been going on since this. Sure.

A lot of stress, huh? Yeah. It doesn't help that I need my medicine. What kind of medicine? Take, um, anacetcotics. How long have you been doing that? Since I was 15. What's the highest grade you can be in school?

Two years of college. So, um, so you got 14 years time. Where'd you get college at? University of Phoenix, actually, upt, she's a DL9 program. Well, we majored in Business Administration. I was just wishing what was happening. Okay, and I'll say I-I-Idee too right now. I'm not sure if I kind of came into the middle of this. All right. I declare that the following statement is made of my own free will without anyone having promised me anything or offered out to me any hope of reward. And I make this statement without any fear of physical harm, without anyone having offered

to do me any favor, and without anyone promising me leniency. I further state that I am able to read and write the English language and have completed 14 years of school. No, I didn't feel for my life about this. From us? My cousin. No, no, no, no. They're saying we're not fair in Nalchelia.

Who's your cousin? The godfather of the Italian mafia. Which is they? Giovanni Guerrero. What's wrong with him? He's the one who ordered me to do all this because there was a text message that was sent to my phone that was afforded from Jess, but in the head on me. He told me if I didn't do it, he was going to kill me.

Why would he put a hit on you? You know, he didn't just did. Why would Jess put a hit on you? I don't know. She saw it. She was so mad at me. She just wants me dead and she knows the people to do it. Who was the people that she had? I don't know. So how did your cousin find out about that? My actual friends were talking with him.

And they forwarded him the message and then he forwarded to me. Where's he with that? He's with him right now. He fled the country because of this. OK. All right. So let me tell you. The cop is like, okay, I smell bullshit. Right off the bat, Matt was claiming he was related to the quote, Godfather of the Italian Mafia?

Interviews with other members of this ragtag household would eventually paint a clearer picture of what was going on. A man named Christopher Wright and his girlfriend Sharon Cook were of particular interest. Christopher was in his 30s, and boy, was he a talker. What came as a shock to everyone in the investigation was that Christopher and Sharon had only just met the rest of the gang a few days prior to Jessica's murder. But they were there, and they obviously helped to try to cover it all up.

Are you from New Jersey or Rhode Island? New Jersey. Okay, you have a Rhode Island ID? Yes. Okay. I moved from Jersey to Rhode Island. Okay, okay. I'm from, originally from Jersey, I got married in Rhode Island. And came to Fort Snell, just I need 350

to start the process in like 2000. Wow, really? For, I guess, Louis V's, yeah, they're not cheap. Holy smokes, man. All right, what's your full name? Christopher Joseph Wright, WRNG H.A. OK, here's what's going on. I need to talk to you about this.

I figured that. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I need to talk to you about this. I figured that yeah Yeah, I got one thing to say. I don't mind telling you what I heard what was done I'm just afraid for me and my girl. I understand you get what I'm saying You're afraid you gotta come out to you. Oh, let's just put it this way after all this was done He said that was number two hundred thirty six. And he's that's I think that's bullshit. But if you take someone's life that you so go along with love, what am I? He's locked up. All right, well, yeah, you almost say that.

What am I right? I'm like, right? It's that's the only thing I don't mind helping. Well, he's got that right. He'll help anyone out with anything, including dismembering and disposing of a body. Am I going to be arrested for this? I'm going to tell you this. Here's what I got to talk to you and then I got to call my attendant and I got to find out what's going on. I don't know what else is going on yet. Translation. Yes, you're going to be arrested for this, but if we tell you that, then you won't cooperate.

Give us the information we need to put you away, so... Why don't you just start from the beginning? Basically, we was at the library. I met Andrew and his wife, Candace. We were talking. We all listen to the ICP. So I have a tattoo of the ICP on my arm. He said, so you're a Jebelo.

And I said, yeah, kind of. Well, not like. I listen to the music. I like them. I wouldn't consider myself a Jebelo. But I guess because I listened to what they considered it. Ah, the library. One place where people can loiter and not get kicked out. A masteratorium for the homeless. This is the spot Andrew Forney, his wife Candace, and Matt usually went to trash talk, Jessica, and come up with half-baked quote-unquote business plans like growing tobacco,

rolling cigarettes, and shipping them up to New York, where they could be sold for a higher price. Real, you know, cutting-edge genius shit, you know? Anyway, by the time Andrew and Candace moved into Jess's apartment, her and Matt's relationship already had problems. Once Matt's friends arrived, they kind of ganged up on Jessica, deciding collectively that she was annoying, even though it was her place. They were together, you know, before we got there. They continued to be a couple until

early February. At that point it started to be an on off thing and then by the end of February it was just off. Okay. Did Jess want you out of there partner? Yes and no. I mean, it was one of those weird situations where we wanted to move out because the strain of having a broken up couple in the house is hard on everyone.

They would argue a lot, tempers would flare, and it wasn't healthy for anyone. I mean, emotionally speaking, it wasn't healthy for anyone. What would they already go about? Anything? Like, Derek about money. Occasionally, they would argue about my wife and I being there, but it was Jess who invited us to be there to begin with. And then she changed her mind later on, at which point we didn't have any place that we could go to. When we moved out of my mother-in-law's it's actually her husband who owns the house and he had said when you guys moved out that's it no moving back. So if she had kicked us out and we couldn't get an apartment or

anything local we had nowhere to go to. When did you meet Chris Wright and Sharon Cook? At SIFCAL. So four days before then we met them at the library in Urbana. Okay, who's at the library with you? Just me and my wife were there and we ran into Chris and Sharon. You know the layout of the Urbana Library? No I don't but I was somewhat familiar with the idea. The computer room that soon closed that has five computers in it. My wife and I were in there. Chris and Sharon came in. Chris saw I was playing a particular Facebook game that he also plays.

He asked me how I was doing so well in it when he was having trouble. I gave him some pointers. We started talking. Then I saw he had a tattoo on his arm that was an insane clown, posse related. And I said, hey, you listen to ICP. He said, well, yeah, we start talking like that. We decided we wanted to try to hang out with them. So we left the library, and we went back to the house there.

We told Matt that we met this guy, and he likes ICP and all that stuff. And he's like well are they still there at the library and I said yeah they should be they still had a good hour left on the computers so he came with us we drove back to the library they were just getting ready to leave we started talking and so you talk with him there and then you guys went and got Matt and then brought Matt back to the library so that they can meet. I can't remember if the first time we went to their place or if the first time we went back to Jess's place, but the first time we had them over was when they met Jess. What did they think of Jess? Um, it was kind of a mixed reaction really.

On the one side they say, well, she seems nice enough, but there were certain mannerisms of hers that got on their nerves. Jess liked to get really close to people and touch them up without permission, like a hand on the shoulder and stuff like that. She ended up doing that to Chris, like seduction with a hand on her shoulder and was talking to him and it got Sharon upset. She, you know, did me say anything right then, but when Jess went back into the bedroom, she said, man, I hate it when she does stuff like that.

Here's Chris's recollection of the first time they all met. Well, I mean, like, half an hour later, I think they came by and asked me to show me Matt. So I was always up to meet new people, all of them, new people at her. So they came to the library and instead of an hour later we just went okay and I met Matt and he's telling us that he's Cecilian and this is his girl Jessica I'm trying it's just a lot of shit happened for a week Jessica and I didn't like her but I wouldn't put in.

See, you know what I mean? I wouldn't do nothing like that to my worst enemy. I got to see. Why'd you like her? What was it? She just too touchy. My girl was upset about it because she always used to do this and I'd tell her she wouldn't listen.

But that would be no reason for, you know what I mean? Him and her kept arguing and he kept telling her, it was her apartment, but he was talking about trying to start up a family like an Italian family or whatever it was And that he wanted people in it my girl, May, Andrew, Candace You know to start it And I was like I'm Italian I had a choice way back then to be part of it.

He wanted me to be his captain. I guess let me, he wanted to be the time which is bullshit. You know, you don't just get that. I don't know if you know anything about Italians. You, you, you work your way up. You don't just make, that's just like any of these little so-called shitty games they have out here. You gotta work working way up. According to the group, three or four days passed and the five of them hung out at Jess's

house and at the library, all while talking about how annoying they thought Jess was. What were you guys saying about Jess at that time? Well, we said, look, this is Matt's ex. It's her place, so she sets rules. We have to live by them, basically. And we said that we were trying to get our own place to be able to get away. She's talking about how you wish she wasn't around or in your guys' life. That was the whole point of moving away, was we wouldn't have to deal with her anymore. Well, I think more along the lines of talking about getting rid of her or killing her at that time.

Possibly in a joking manner. Did you carry around a bio of almond oil or something like that, almond extract that you said that you could simply get rid of her by putting that in her drink? And she would... Okay, so you said that when? Um... I'd actually had that for a couple of weeks and just never done anything with it. I understand that, but you told Chris and Sharon that though, right? Yeah, I did. Did you talk about that with Matt too?

I didn't tell him that I had it. He knew that she was allergic to almond extract. So yeah, our homies are normal. He knew that she was allergic to almond extract, so yeah. So are you guys... You know, sounds to me like maybe you guys have somewhat been contemplating some of that up to that point. Definitely not seriously. Is it common for someone to carry almond extract then in their pocket? No, no it isn't. So you would agree with this? That's not a common thing. Okay. And if someone is potentially allergic to something and there are comments being made that

you'd like to ever kill, like to get rid of her, like to something like that, you could see and then that person still ends up dead. You could see where we could be at a position to think maybe there was some more discussions about this, correct? Yeah, but at the same time, Matt was allergic to peanut butter. We had peanut butter in the house all the time. We had candies of peanut butter all the time, and we joked at him whenever one person had a race, he'd say, hey look it's chocolate death but he would laugh at it. But you didn't carry that around in your pocket

and you would joke with him about it you weren't joking with Jess about having the almonds in your pocket and showing her how we're actually one time yes I did We saw a ball, you know, a cheese ball. It was almond and something else she said she was allergic to. I said, hey look, it's a little ball of death and she started laughing. I said, yeah, well, I should have a full thing of my pocket. I said, hey look, it's a little ball of death and she started laughing harder. Why would you carry that around your pocket? I don't know. Honestly, as a joke. When did you start carrying it around in your pocket?

I can't remember if it was late January or if it was mid-February. It was right about the time they started to go on again, off again. time they started to go on again off again? I know that at that time I was really upset with her and I'm not exactly sure what Poop Choo himself said. I know that he took Chris aside and went down the street, talked to my mom. I heard something to the extent of where he was trying to see if maybe Chris could do something about it as a take care of her. And when you mean take care of her, what do you mean? Take care of her. Go a little bit more into that. What do you mean?

Besides, we understand when you mean take care care of it, you said you had heard something along what exactly did you hear, who was around in that conversation. I heard him say that he was going to try to save Chris, kill her, and so that he, as an initiation to his little mafia family. What day, what did that conversation have been made? The day after the first night of Christ. So Tuesday. The day of the actual murder, nothing truly significant happened.

The group had just reached their limit with Jessica, and Matt decided to do something about it himself. The crew seemed totally comfortable discussing the possibility of a murder. So if he did it and asked for forgiveness later, perhaps they'd be willing to help him deal with the aftermath. He knew this would be a multi-person job. I don't know exactly what I can't tell you what day that happened. He called me in a room. He had a problem with her I guess I'll back He intercepted a message from Giovanni from Sicily as said she was trying to get him killed

Don't know how sure it was. I see the message on his phone, but I don't know how to say what the message said It was basically something that from email. It was an email message that I can't know how it's written. It was basically something that from email. It was an email message that I can't take mad anymore. I don't even know if it was from her. So I don't know. But that came through. Then him and her went in the back room to talk with the door shut. Me, Andrew, Candace, and Sharon were up in the front room.

I was playing on the two desktop computers that were up there. I'm there. The only information I have on their arguments after they left front room is secondhand. As far as what was happening in the living room, it was all six of us were in the living room. It was, you know, all six of us were in the front watching movies and stuff on the computers. Jess was wanting Matt's attention and wanted to take

him in the back room to talk and he said, look, we have guests. I don't really feel like going back there right now. She got upset and went into the room. A little while later, he followed her in, and they were in there talking for a while. So the only thing I have on what they were talking about or arguing about is second hand from Matt through letters that you probably already have. This whole story is so convoluted. that he probably already has. This whole story is so convoluted. Surely with five different versions,

detectives could sift through and uncover something close to the truth. As per usual, the group of them were apparently in the front room communicating only through text message when Chris got a text from Matt to come into the back room. coldness and that where she's staying she's barely talking like she wasn't really she was talking more to him and when I see the blood I have a weak stomach that got me really crazy so I left the room he called me back and I came back in and she was gone I guess going in and out like not a consciousness

but she's just randomly. You couldn't understand what she was, you know, like I'm talking to you now and you can hear the words out of my mouth. I couldn't make half the sentences you're saying. So he told me that he said something about, he goes, the only reason I did, he's telling her everything he's doing.

The only reason that I stabbed you, that wasn't to put you out of your misery. He told her that, he said, that was just to make you weak. And I don't get that one, but he told her to make her weak. Then he says, I am going to put a bag in Suffer Caged. He told me I'll leave the room again, because I'm not, first off, I don't wanna see that. Mm-hmm.

Matt did, as he said he would, putting a bag over Jessica's head to suffocate her. She fought him, ripping the first bag open. So he covered her head with a second bag, until she was no longer moving. I should have called you guys, but honestly I was afraid. He already stuck her with a knife once. What's to say to you guys will make it there and I'll be the second one laying there. Ah yes, the old, I have to look out for myself because my children need me, excuse. Where are these children? Anyway. Definitely not with their dad. So we leave the room here a little bit of, I guess, muffled noise.

You mean like somebody talking? No. I think like her being suffocated or whatever. I didn't know what it was. Okay. Exactly. I didn't know if she did something different, whatever. Supposedly he coached her and put the bag over her head.

Do you think she was in any kind of shape to do that? The love that she had for him, possibly without it. I don't think she physically could have done it. She was, the way she was right here, I don't think so. Like she was just laying on the bed like right there. She wasn't moving much, her head was moving, but I don't think she'd actually have the strength

to put her bag in holding. And plus, I've done it myself just to get buzz, put my hands there to make myself do it. You don't go out. You let go before. So he's, and he has he has I guess scratches on his arm from her fighting I guess back. Then he called us in the room me, my girl, Andrew, Candace all seen the bag tightly you know just use later lifeless. What kind of bag you talking about? Walnut

bag or a freight bag. One little white plastic bag were you talking about? Warlock bag or a tracerate bag, one of the little white plastic bags. Sure, okay. I think it was a white plastic bag. Okay. Could have been clear, I don't think it was clear though. And it was just wrap. Eventually he's talking to her,

when she's not there anymore. What's he saying? He goes, I told you, I gotta take you out. You know, and listen to that, I'm like, oh, fuck it. Now I'm in a accessory. I don't wanna be, but I'm in the house. I'm not necessary, I didn't pour the cops. I said, oh.

Remember, Chris Wright and his allegedly pregnant girlfriend Sharon Cook had only just met the others a few days prior. And now they were going to be intimately involved in helping to cover up a murder for their juggalo friends. New Year New Stress Am I right? The problem with stress, other than the fact that it's, you know, extremely unpleasant, is the fact that it causes weight gain.

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I think you're going to like it. Here's a little help to get started. Get 15% off and free shipping at takeline.com and enter Monsters 15. That's promo code Monsters 15 at takeline.com. That's takeline.com. Statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, and is not a substitute or alternative care from a healthcare provider. On March 31, 2012, just one day after 21-year-old Jessica Seckos' landlord discovered her partially dismembered body in the bathtub of her apartment, five suspects were arrested in connection to the crime.

Urbana police head in their custody, 25-year-old Matthew Puccio, 25-year-old Andrew Forney, 25-year-old Candace Forney, 38-year-old Christopher Wright, and 25-year-old Sharon Cook. Matthew Puccio was charged with aggravated murder, felonious assault, felony gross abuse of a corpse, misdemeanor abuse of a corpse, possession of criminal tools, and tampering with evidence. Bail was set at over half a million dollars. The rest of the group faced charges of gross abuse of a corpse, abuse of a corpse, tampering with evidence obstructing justice, and failure to report a crime.

Their bails ranged from $30,000 to $42,500. Everyone but Matthew Puccio agreed to take a plea deal, stipulating that they'd share the whole truth with investigators. Matthew originally tried to plead not guilty by reason of insanity, but eventually changed his plea to guilty Good evening. I'm Cheryl McHenry. I'm John Paul James Brown is off and her band of women suffered for hours before she was killed That's according to the man who told us he's the one who killed her He said her sevens Jessica Hefner talked to the now confessed killer in the tri-county jail and has this exclusive interview Jessica

Well, there are five people in jail for the murder of Jessica Ray Sacco. I asked all five to talk to me about what happened, but only the main suspect, Matthew Puccio, agreed. And he says about that day is disturbing and police are still evaluating how much of it they actually believe. Why did you kill her? Honestly, I don't know he was brought in from the jail in handcuffs. He told me he only agreed to this interview to tell his side of the story.

Of what his relationship with Jessica Reisacko was really like, he says her personality drew them together a year and a half ago. Being there for me. When I was going through psychotic breaks, you held me and told me

I'll be alright. But the night of March 21st, they got into an argument. One he said started because he'd received text messages. Sacco wanted him dead. I said, if you want me to have your life,

I can just do it myself. What did she say? I can't be so first like that. You have four kids to think about. That's when he claims Sacco started begging him to kill her. According to rules, she died of suffocation.

Police say he used a bag, but Puccio admitted that's not what happened first. She was pleading with me to slash her throat slash her wrist. Do something. And I told her, no, I can't do that to you. And she told me to stab her then,

so I just held my hand above her stomach, she grabbed my wrist and pulled it into her stomach. So how did the bag get into the situation? The bag that police say you put over her head to suffocate her. That didn't come into the situation until about 6 1o-7 hours later after I stabbed her. Puccio claims he held the knife in front of her torso, but she reached for it and he claims she made him stab her. He also said he wrapped the wound, held her, and, in his words, gave her a final kiss. She asked me if I could just let her die already.

I thought there's only one way I can do that. It's not going to be pleasant. He cried as he described grabbing a plastic bag and putting it over her head. Week from the knife wound he said it only took seconds. I just laid next to him. Cryed. kept telling her I'm sorry for hours. He debated his next move. He then says he called four friends also in jail now for help. Why? Why? I was scared. He said they jumped the body parts in some woods in Kentucky.

He then went to Hamilton to wait. It would be eight days before police would find her body. During that time, Puccio said he tried to come to terms with what he did when police came for him. He says he confessed. We have no right to take someone else's life. We have no right to take someone else's life. It don't matter what the scenario is. Well, you did. I know. And I have to live with that.

Our friend, if Sacco's told me, she'd been urging her to kick Puccio out of her apartment not long before she was killed. Puccio told me he plans to plead guilty and deserves the death penalty. While Matthew Puccio was telling 101 different versions of what happened and why, the others began spilling the beans in order to keep their plea deals alive, unlike Jessica, of course. That night we ended up having to stay there.

Me and my girl and the other two were staying with him. Me and my girl ended up staying there because he told us to stay there. Me and my girl and the other two were staying with him. Me and my girl ended up staying there because he told us to stay there. He slept next to the body in the bedroom. Wow, really? That's yeah. And that right there got me even worse because if you he's just like he said the Columbine and all the mother had nothing on him. He said I don't know. I still I'm afraid to watch this movie. The collector, he gave me a movie to watch. The collector, then he says, that's nothing compared to what he could do. And the description of the collector,

he keeps body parts as trophies. That's just disgusting. I don't want somebody's body part as a trophy to bring in the next bit. No, I don't want somebody's body part as a trophy to bring in the next bit. No, I don't know the movie I'm still refusing to watch it But oh it's just and then the next day Tell me about that. What was his reason for cutting up to To get rid of it. Okay, so he wasn't collecting parts?

No, no, but that's what, that's what, when he told me about the movie first, I was like, oh, don't tell me this. No, he wanted to get rid of the parts. Sure. The parts, I'm not sure where they're at. Okay. So how, how did you guys get rid of the... It took four of us. It was only him and Andrew in the beginning trying. Then he asked me, I grabbed, I think I grabbed one of her legs to try. I don't know why I did it. I was scared of her.

I didn't, you know what I mean? It's, it's just the body. Who's the four? And then three of us, Andrew's a big boy. I don't know if you met Andrew. Andrew's a big boy. Okay. With me, I'm a hundred pounds and strong. With three of us trying to lift her, it was dead weight, not no pun intended. Right. But it was, you know, it was heavy. We could get the thing in the tub. So Sharon helped. So we each grabbed a leg and an arm, got her better in the tub. Finally, we had the dragger. Okay. He wanted her off the bed for some reason

and I was afraid. So, I didn't want to deal with trust with it. Right. Right. So then, so then tell me about the cutting up. Who else cut it off? He had, he had Andrew start, told him to do it.

And what did Andrew do? Started with, I'm trying to think. What's he using to cut her up? Diving knife, I think it was. Okay. I think it was a diving knife. He had about three, there was two swords. He tried with a sword first.

Who tried with a sword first? Andrew. He tried with one of them big Katama swords. Right. Let's go back to our first original statement. Yeah. I believe the first one was when Matt came out and told you she was dead,

that you guys went then and picked her up and took her into the bathroom and put her in a tub. I was. And then started cutting her left arm off. I was mistaken with that. I was taken. I was someone in shock. That is part of the erroneous statement. Okay. So you're saying now that he comes out and says she's dead

or whatever. I mean, did how does that how I put it or what did it what did he say? Yeah, he said he said she's dead. I choked her. Okay. So then you guys decide to go to sleep. And then that's about what time in the morning do you know? It was between seven and nine in the morning when we went to sleep. Okay. Woke up somewhere between 11 and one. Okay. Okay. Woke up somewhere between 11 and 1. Okay. So you wake up between 11 and 1 and the decision at that point is what? That Matt said, hey look I've been thinking about it.

We should move her into the bathroom and cut up the body to be able to hide it. Okay now, when we first talked you said that was your idea. Whether it was my idea or his, it was brought up at that point. Who knew how to cut her up? It's not something that you just do on the whim. well. Right. I made incision marks superficial at the different joints or whatever to show where Matt should cut. Matt did the majority of the cutting and then I removed the fingers because Matt said well if we leave the fingers on there then the body will be easier to identify if the parts are ever found. Okay. Why did you leave the head then? We got to a point where we felt we just couldn't continue.

Because of what reasons? One, time constraints. Two, smell. It would have been to a finish cutting up the body in the way that Matt decided he wanted to do it after the idea was brought forth. It would have involved cutting open the abdomen and removing the organs and so forth, which is going to create an unbelievable smell. And that would have alerted the neighbors

to something going on. And so when it got too late enough in the day of cutting, Chris and I just looked at each other and said, no, this needs to stop now because it's, you know, this is just as far as a cheaper period. This? This situation where you've murdered and partially dismembered an innocent young woman in her own house? That's as far as it should go, according to Andrew and Chris. Just remember her body, you don't take the head off, can't get the arm off, you're under time constraints, smell, all that stuff.

What do you guys do with the body parts? The body parts were placed into those trash bags with the intention of removing them and ditching them at another location. Where? them and ditching them at another location. Where? The original intention was to leave, basically put one lamb in each trash bag and leave them at different dumpsters throughout town here in Urbana. They would have been public trash cans and so forth and most likely not searched was the thought process there. We couldn't find locations that suited our purposes so they ended up being transported down with us to Hamilton at which point the people that

we were staying with that's Susan Hunt, which is Linda, he's an Epstein's mother, said that she would take him to ditch the body parts on their way down into Kentucky, when she was going to pick up her youngest children. I'm really not sure why this Linda lady was not arrested. Maybe somebody in the audience could clue me in. That's a question we just weren't able to answer. How on earth did the stars align so perfectly that at minimum six people were involved in the cover-up?

Everyone Jessica surrounded herself with in her final six months of life was against her. Literally everyone. Did you call EMS or 911? No, I didn't. Why not? Honestly, I've been told that I'm loyal to a fault and I would say that was definitely a fault in not calling. I don't think that he was completely in control of himself when that happened. But as such I became protective of him and didn't want him to suffer for something he did in a crazy moment. But you when Jess took 30 some aspirin and ate Tramadil or Tramadil or whatever it was you call EMS 911 and have them come pick her up because she didn't want her to die. But Matt stabs her you got a

little bit of a cut on her shirt, a little bit of blood. This isn't a loom to her neck, this isn't a loom to her wrists, this isn't, you know, there's not blood all over the place. You don't think to call 911 or EMS at that point to try to save her life at that point. You know you tried to save her life when she took a bunch of pills with no blood involved and she tried to take her own life. I'm sure this is about to sound screwed up, but I don't ever believe that suicide is the answer to anything and I feel extremely strong about that. As such, whether I liked her at that time or not, I called EMS and made sure she was

taken care of. I had one actually wanted her and was trying to convince her to stay checked in at that mental hospital for longer because honestly she needed that she was extremely depressed on a long term basis. What we got to Facebook messages you guys back and forth they were closer to her death that where you guys don't like her at all you're basically just staying there because you needed a roof over your head and you didn't want to sleep in the van. Yeah okay so I mean let's not go into a whole, you may get a representation that's not, I mean, the guy's in the light whereas the time.

The reason why I didn't call right then is because honestly, since I knew he wasn't thinking straight or thinking at all, I didn't want him to get... But for a small little wound that... The sole, the longest, the sole F2 carries a penalty of two to eight years. As opposed to Merb. That carries potential death penalty. Again, I was not thinking clearly, and I'm kind of freely admitting that.

So... So would it be safe to say that you guys expressed your displeasure with Jess and how you guys didn't like her or care for her? Did you guys talk about wishing her gone with Chris and them? I never got mad, yeah. Did you guys talk about killing her with a Christmas chair? I didn't want to. I mean, I got mad and I said stupid shit. Why, what's the stupid shit you said?

Like, I did wish I'd grown up. I got so mad at her. But after the fact, I didn so mad, but after the fact I didn't really... I don't know, I guess I wish she would have just either moved away or... I didn't want this to happen. Yes, they did want it to happen. And then it happened. Cause and effect.

Consequences to actions. How many times have we told this story? This group of quote-unquote loyal people would have been thrilled if Jessica had stayed institutionalized after a suicide attempt so they could just live freely in her house without her around. That didn't happen though, so they took it upon themselves to allow the craziest among them to carry out this horrible act while they stood by and watched, waiting to help clean it all up when it was all said and done.

Now listen, you're going to be very disappointed when you hear the prison sentences for these degenerate morons. Matthew Puccio received a sentence of life in prison with the possibility of parole after 30 years for the aggravated murder charge and an additional 12 years for the other charges. Oh yeah, and one of the people Matt was cheating on, Jessica with, was a 14 year old girl. So he copped an additional three years for that. His co-defendants received varied sentences. Andrew Forney got just ten years in prison, while Candace Forney got six years, because

she's female. She did have to forfeit her van, though, the vehicle used to transport Jessica's body parts. Christopher Wright got just four years, and his girlfriend Sharon Cook got three. With good behavior, that's like a cakewalk. The Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction states that Christopher Wright is currently a fugitive and is at large, most likely for violation of the terms of his parole.

Hearing these sentences, you're probably realizing that everyone except for Matthew is out of prison. Andrew even has his own brand new Facebook account, believe it or not. Go say hi. Actually don't. Just stay the fuck away. Stay the fuck away from these people, all of them. Nothing good can come from surrounding yourself with people like this. A lesson Jessica should have learned, but didn't, unfortunately. Isn't it just crazy how some people can make egregious mistakes in their life and then walk away a few years later like nothing ever happened? All of the perpetrators in this case have family members who now have to live with this horrible stain on their family name. Most importantly, this crime took Jessica Sacco away

from her loving parents and siblings. She may not have been perfect. She may have had demons and issues. Hell, she may have even been annoying, who knows? But who cares? She was innocent. She deserved a chance to live, to learn, to grow as a person,

to realize that insane clown posse is not good music, period. And I don't mean to make light of the situation, it's a really horrible, horrible thing that's happened here. But I can't help but feel for Jessica's poor mom. We tried to give her a chance. We tried to steer her in the right direction. But at some point you've got to let the little baby bird out of the nest and hope for the best. And life doesn't always turn out the way you hope it will. Alright, that's going to do it for another one. Thank you so much for joining us. And again, if this is the last thing on your feed, and this is the last time you've heard

me and it's been weeks and weeks, maybe you want to head on over to sortonscale.com, download our new app, and go check that out, which is which is by the way launching in just a little over a week now so go tell your friends it's got a little buzz going like it's 2017 let's go! No, we want the calls. All the more reasons I have the calls that they don't like the cause. Keep the cause. I love the cause. So that's my thing in.

Bye. Hey Mike, it's Jack. Don't get rid of the comments at the end. You know, people are pain in the ass. If I like the comments, there are some people who really could use the course of paraphrasing so they can just, you know, get the point across and then hang out. But that's not your problem. Keep the comments. I think you need to hear the love. All right, keep doing the good job. Bye-bye.

Mike is Nicole Pomplin. I've been listening to you for 10 years and the best part of your show, well, the best part of your show is you, of course, but I really do look forward to those calls at the end. Don't ever stop that. You played me once. It was the most amazing moment of my life. And please don't stop doing it. It's part of your signature, okay? Anyway, looking forward to the TV show, It's part of your signature, okay?

Anyway, looking forward to the TV show, you say so, love you, have fun. ស្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្្ Thank you.