Sword and Scale - Episode 282

Episode Date: February 17, 2025

21-year-old Lauren Kukla spent her life holding her family together - a Michigan household defined by chaos, addiction, and mental illness. Unlike her troubled siblings, Lauren had managed to stay grounded, becoming the caretaker and peacekeeper. While she was preoccupied with managing each crisis on the surface, the deeper issues went unnoticed. By the time Lauren realized what was happening, it was too late.

Sword and scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences Listener discretion is advised Say I'm going to do that's about and she said it's all over now and it's done There's a new show coming so stick around after the music and you'll find out more. This is Season 2, Episode 282 of Sword and Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Well, I lied. Not about the show that's coming up. It is coming up.

But about telling you about the show that's coming up. It is coming up, but about telling you about the show that's coming up. Because I'm not gonna tell you anything. I'm gonna keep it a secret this time. You're not gonna find out a damn thing till it comes out March 3rd! Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, In a family where chaos reigns, it's easy to lose sight of the cracks forming beneath the surface. Born into a world of addiction, mental illness, and unspeakable secrets, one can grow so accustomed to the madness that it becomes invisible. Each day brings a new crisis, a new fire to put out. And amidst the smoke and shadows, it's impossible to notice the creeping darkness closing in. The familiar feels like survival, until it's not. Like the proverbial frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat goes unnoticed.

There's too much to manage, calming the parent's paranoid delusions, steering a sibling away from another destructive path, trying to hold it all together. The storms are so familiar that they barely register anymore. And while tending to each fresh disaster, something far more dangerous is below. It's a slow, insidious bubbling. And before there's any time to escape, the water has reached a dangerous boil. In 2007, 21-year-old Lauren Kukla found herself shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional well-being. Though she had small children of her own, their needs aren't what I'm talking about here.

Lauren was not only caring for her immediate household, but also managing the endless conflicts between her late schizophrenic mother and her four older siblings, none of whom could seem to get their lives together for some reason. Conveniently, they all lived in the same area near McComb, Michigan, and Lauren was stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years. Though her siblings' houses were chaotic, messy, and filled with conflict, Lauren's house was different.

Though she was young, she and her family lived a white picket fence kind of life compared to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her sister Elizabeth or Lizzie was on drugs and had already lost custody of her brothers. Her sister Elizabeth or Lizzie was on drugs and had already lost custody of her children and her sister 30 year old Jennifer or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings, was walking that same tightrope. How Lauren turned out to be a normal functioning member of society after growing up in a household like this is really a mystery. On Saturday, February 3rd, 2007, all while trying to juggle her career and her young children's needs, Lauren got a call

from Jenny. As usual, her oldest sister was having a meltdown and needed help. He had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Kukla, or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister, and Lisa Fabry, the neighbor growing up, as well as everybody's father, F-A-B-B-R-I, had led her to believe that they were gonna have her kids taken away. They were gonna call the CPS.

As far as I know at that time, that was a truthful statement. Lizzie denied it when I went to her place of employment later. At that time, I could see her saying something like that because she said it to me before, plenty of times the past couple years. She said she hates Jenny. She wishes she would just clean up her act and blah, blah, blah, whatever, because Lizzie got her kids taken away. She thought that she would just clean up her act and blah blah blah, whatever.

Because Lizzie got her kids taken away. She thought that she was fighting for them, but she wasn't fighting for them because she was always doing crack and shimmy damage. So she wasn't really working at it. But she wanted anybody to blame her, she could. So now she wants, I can see her wanting some kind of revenge or wanting Jenny to feel the same pain as her. Lizzie wasn't threatening to report Jenny to CPS because she was genuinely concerned about her nieces. She just hated her sister and wanted to see Jenny lose her kids too. Nice, right? You could hear that she was afraid that her kids may be taken away.

She wanted to make sure that they were, you know... Do you believe she sounded intoxicated at the time? No. I didn't hear. I mean, Jenny was an alcoholic as is, so I couldn't tell the difference either way. You know what I mean? She wasn't a stupid drunk kid by that time. Okay.

So when she called, I know that she, you could tell that she just wanted to make sure that the girls were, I mean, that the house was taken care of because she did not want to lose her kids. She was concerned. The whole family knew Jenny was an alcoholic, but her habits had gotten worse over the prior months. Finances were tight and she was spending any extra money she had on beer and all of her free time drinking it. The kids, three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were

being cared for properly and the trailer they lived in was an absolute disaster as you can imagine. To top it all off they didn't even have running water. How long were the pipes frozen for? She had said something to me on Thursday about it. So just a few days. Yeah. Were they frozen or just shut off? Frozen.

Everything worked. The heat worked and everything. Except the furnace broke the day before, and Al came and fixed it that day. Al was Jenny's boyfriend. He lived nearby, and the two were still friends. So did your sister maintain that trailer on her own? For the most part, yeah.

She kept the heat on, kept the water running. I think there was one time in the spring that she had her gas turned off and she called me. It was after, it was fall because my mom had already passed away. She called me and she said, she said you gotta call grandma. And now I'm gonna go between grandma because I took it upon myself to make sure everything was, you know, taken care of with my mom and taken care of with grandma. Everybody kind of looked at me as the one who would

help them if they needed something from grandma. So she asked me, I need money for rent, I need money to fix the car, I need money to get my license back, I need money to, you know, all this stuff. And I like, I think was, Jenny, you gotta get clean, you're drinking, you know. When I, I I think was, Jenny, you got to get clean. You're drinking, you know. I can help you. And Grandma goes, I wish I didn't give her a lecture. I said, you have to give her a

lecture every time, otherwise she doesn't know how you feel, Grandma. I said, then alone this is your fault, you know. And I just said, she did have it shut off a couple times, but not to the extent where the girls didn't have anywhere else to go or, you know, couldn't take care of themselves and stuff. And they always had food in the fridge and stuff like that. Unfortunately, food in the fridge is not the only criteria CPS looks for when deciding whether a home is safe for children. It looked like Jenny might actually get a visit from a social worker, and it wouldn't

be the first time. CPS had taken her kids before, but she knew that if it happened again, she might not be able to get them back. Lauren didn't want to be at her family's beck and call. She knew Jenny's situation was largely because of her own unwillingness to get help for her alcoholism and whatever else was going on in her drama-filled life. Her chief concern were her two nieces, Jenny's eight-year-old daughter Alexa—apologies if I just activated your devices at home—and five-year-old daughter Ashley. So Lauren, the family crisis manager that she was, gathered some friends.

A guy named Russell and a woman named Jessica. She offered them ten bucks for their time and drove them over to her sister's house to help her clean it up. So then I went to Al's house to pick her up and she... Who's Al? You went to who's? Al Vanderbos, which is the man where she was at. He lives in a trailer park as well.

Yeah, like they're all with their home, they're two block radius. So I drove over there after I asked Russell, I had Jessica, they wanted to make 10 bucks. I asked Stacey too, but she said she didn't want to go in that house because she knows it's too dirty, she wanted to deal with that. Okay, so you picked up Jenny and the two kids?

Yeah, no, I picked up Jennifer. And the kids stayed there with Al. And I had Russell or Jessica in the car with me. Okay, so you picked up Jennifer and Al, what's his name? Vander, Vander Boss, I think. Vander? It's in the statement, I think. Vander Boss, I'm not sure. Vander Boss?

Yeah. And is that her, is she boyfriend? Ex-boyfriend, still friends kind of thing. Oh, Jenny, right? Yeah. Okay, kids were lost there. Yeah. She got in the car, she was acting fine.

She just said, you know, let's go right now. We'll get this done. And I said, okay, Jenny, you know, we have a couple hours or whatever. We'll get it done. She was upset. I remember her on time. She was upset. I remember her saying something. She was upset because she thinks Lisa and Lizzie

were going to call. Where did she get that information? She said that when she was over at Elizabeth's house earlier that day, she was on the phone with Lisa. Lisa had told her something that triggered a memory of how it's possible that she may have been hypnotized into being a bad person. Who was hypnotized?

Jennifer was. She said that she... Lisa said something that triggered a memory of some kind into her realizing that she may have been hypnotized during her teenage years. Jenny was probably grasping at straws, trying to find reasons why her life turned out as terribly as it did and why she couldn't seem to be a good parent like her little sister, Lauren. Gee, I wonder why. Being, you know, hypnotized is an answer that takes the blame off of Jenny herself. It's one of the things that alcoholics do. Just trust me on that. Though she wasn't actually

hypnotized, Jenny hadn't had an easy life. Sure, her situation was a result of her own decisions, but decisions are often influenced by past experiences and Jenny's life had been rather traumatic. Jenny always had problems. She believed that she was worthless. She believed that, I mean, she was raped and everything else. Her mom didn't take care of her. You know, her, like our mom was, I meds a lot and she probably thought, you know, for some reason I'm not being taken care of because, you know, my mom brought this horrible man into her life.

You know what I mean? Like she just kept getting different kinds of thoughts about that. So um. When back to you told me that a year your natural father was convicted of rape of Jennifer At work what age like how old I think those are long period time I think from like 12 to 15 12 15 she was lost Joseph her father's brother Robert he was actually impaired.

She told me that he molested her as well growing up, at the younger ages. That the neighbor at the residence that I live in now, one of the old neighbors that lived there, like their nephew or something, molested her as well. She was raped, just I mean walking down the street kind of thing she told me before. My other sister, I remember she was raped. She eckled into a van. I'm raped. They had it pretty rough.

Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to pull something of a life together. She had full custody of her two young daughters, had a place for them to live, and worked as a manager for McDonald's. She wasn't addicted to hard drugs like her sister Lizzie, but alcoholism can be more difficult to beat because it's normalized in society. I mean, try going out.

Just going out on the weekend. Try to do something and not be around alcohol. It's impossible. Plus, you know, no one gives you a side eye if they see you sipping on a can of beer. How would they know it's your 12th drink? On the other hand, if you have a needle hanging out of your arm like a lot of the residents of Portland, someone might actually call the cops on you. Probably not a Democrat though. Anyways, Lauren, Jenny, and their posse of helpers arrived at the trailer and got to work. So, um... So yes, you guys went to get Bibles. No. The whole time the kids weren't here. No, the whole time the kids were at Al's house. I mean, Jenny told me, go pick up some more beer from Al's and bring it back before you go to the store.

And we went to Al's house and I grabbed the beers and we went in. How many beers you grabbed? Seven or eight. Okay, and how many of you guys were having some before that? I didn't have any. They didn't have any. She, Al had said that she had some before. Okay.

And I don't really know. And she had some at her house too. And she drank a couple over clean for the first like hour and a half or whatnot. We went to return all the bottles that she had. I mean she had some in her shed, she had on her sink, she had them all over the house. So we were trying to clear the clutter, make some money for garbage bags like bottles, water. Some pipes were frozen so we could you know, heat it up or wash whatever. And so we went to the store, we came back, and we just continued to clean and we just—

She was still alone when you came back? Yeah, all alone. Like I said, we had forgotten to bring her that beer, so she was really happy when we got back because she had her beer again. She was like, I'm going to let us sit and make sure you get some. We brought her some more beer. And at that time, we just finished up cleaning. Jessica was getting lazy playing with the dogs or whatever. And then me and Russell were in the girls' bedder, finishing out vacuuming and stuff. And then I went and did the bathroom myself.

Me and Russell did the back bedder. And Jenny was doing the kitchen and the dishes and stuff, trying to get everything out of the kitchen. At this point, Jenny was becoming more paranoid with each beer. After the others left, Jenny confided in her sister that she feared they too would call CPS on her, since they had seen the state of the house firsthand. Jessica might know because I know she, Jenny was afraid that Jessica was going to call

the CPS because of something that she said, which I don't know what she said. I have no idea. She's like, she's like, you know, they're gonna call, they're, you know, they probably think I'm, you know, a horrible mom and all this stuff and I don't know what she's... Jennifer was afraid Jessica was gonna call CPS? Yeah, she was afraid Russell and Jessica were gonna call too. I said, why would they do that when they were here helping us? You know, and she was afraid they were gonna do something too. So I'm like... And they never, did either Russell or Jessica...

They never, never indicated......never indicated, we better call CPS? she was afraid that they were gonna do something too. So I'm like, I don't know. Did either Russell or Jessica ever talk to you at all? Never. Never. And they were a mess, we better call CPS now. No, in fact, in the car when we were going to Elle's house and I told her that she was afraid, she told me not to tell you guys, but I was like, you're not gonna call CPS, right?

And Jessica was like, no, you know, I'm taking away from my mom too, you know? She's like, you know, I got taken away from my mom too. And you know, I would never do that to you. And you know, I wanna help these kids. This was on the way to Elle's would never do that to you. And you know, I want to help these kids. This was on the way to Wales? Mm-hmm, to pick up the girls. She was telling me this stuff.

And Jenny had told me right before we left, like they were getting in the car. And she was like, just make sure they don't call, Lauren. And I think she was really fearful that they would call. So you guys left to go get the girls. Yeah. And brought the girls back. We were, we left to go get the girls.

And I helped them start getting ready. And all of a sudden, Jenny showed up. Yeah. How'd the girls back. We were, we left to go get the girls. And I helped them start getting ready and all of a sudden Jenny showed up. Yeah. How'd she get there? She ran. She was two streets away and she thought, that's kind of weird to me because she thought we left the cell phone there. Which I asked her if that cell phone twice was hers because I knew she lost hers. But I know she had a boost mobile and this was a Motorola. In fact the phone is in my car right now. But I said, you know, I don't know where the phone came from. And she's like, I was like, I moved it.

I put it on the end table like three times. I even asked you if it was yours. And she's like, oh, okay, yeah. But why would she went over there? She knew it was her phone right back. It's possible. I didn't turn it on or anything. It doesn't turn on, but I'm sure it works.

But it just seems, it strikes me as odd that she would run all the way over there even though we were taking the kids back there. You know what I'm saying? So just to summarize all that, Lauren and the others left Jenny at the trailer while they went to pick up Jenny's two daughters, Alexa and Ashley.

Jenny must've been suspicious that they were conspiring against her to help CPS take away the kids and literally ran several blocks to the house the girls were staying at under the guise of returning a cell phone. So I think that she was even fearful at that time that I would try to take the kids. And I wish I don't understand, but whatever. So we, Jenny got in the back,

and I have a third row seating station wagon. She got in the back with Lexa. I had the first thing she said when she opened the back and I was already in the car and Ashley was in, I have a booster seat for her. This was big enough for my daughter and big enough for her. She's like, Lauren, why would you ask Lexa

if she even liked me? I'm like, I didn't say that. And I was like, Lexa, did you ask her that? I was being calm with Lexa, like how you talk to kids. And she's like, she's just quiet. She didn't say anything. And then she's like, Jenny goes, are you lying, Lexa? And not angry, not angry.

She was more concerned for why she would lie to her. And I said, Jenny, I didn't say that. And I said, I talked to them earlier this week when they were at my house. And I said that, you know, mama tries her best, you know? And that was the end of the conversation. And we drove home and the kids were just saying, I'm gonna be okay.

Did Lexa actually ask her? I don't know. I wasn't, I mean, I got into the car. There was never any answer to the question because you asked her. No, she never answered the question. Jenny asked her and Lexa never answered. She never answered the question, but I got into the car. There was never any answer to the question because you asked her. No, she never answered the question. Jenny asked her and Lexa never answered. She never answered the question,

but I know she was quiet. And Lexa had a tendency to do stuff like that, just kind of tattle or like say, you know, mix up the words or something and then Jenny would get not upset, but she would get like, why do you have to lie to me kind of thing, you know? And so we drove home, everything was fine,

and I had the radio on, whatever, but she opened the door and she went in, and then the girls, you know, they went in right ahead of me. I don't know how we got mixed up, but anyway. I was like, no, stop, because they weren't taking off their shoes and stuff. I was showing them the door to take off their shoes and put their coats and stuff, you know,

and then I said, they're like, wow, and they're looking around, they're all excited, because the house is so much cleaner than it was before, like literally 300 times better. Right. And I mean, even I probably weren't used to having a place to hang the coats and put their shoes. Right, because they weren't used to it.

And they urine so I don't want to cry, but they urine so bad they have that kind of home, that home. When they were at my house and stuff, they knew, they knew the difference. They were playing with my kids on Thursday night. They loved it. You know, I was teaching her how to wash from top to bottom in the bath kind of thing, you They knew the difference. They were playing with my kids on Thursday night. They loved it. I was teaching her how to wash from top to bottom in the bath kind of thing. You have to rinse it all out.

I was in there washing my teeth and stuff. I was like, you got to get ready for bed. I was just thinking to my aunt, how does she not know this stuff at almost nine years old and she doesn't know how to take care of her own body yet? Well, they've been drinking water, I guess. We're number one. Well, I mean, dad, I know it's the frozen pipes, but other than that, I mean... Other than the frozen pipes, the group had successfully gotten the trailer up to par.

Lauren thought she'd fixed the problem. Surely Jenny had no reason to be concerned anymore. Lauren went home that night to take care of her own household and planned to check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day, right after her shift at the local family restaurant. She expected to see Jenny lounging around, enjoying the day with her girls and their newly cleaned trailer. Lauren certainly hadn't pictured herself dialing 911. 21-year-old Lauren Kukla had just cleaned up another family crisis. One of her sisters, Lizzie, had already lost custody of her children,

and her oldest sister, Jennifer, was about to meet the same fate. That was until Lauren rallied a group together to help Jennifer tidy up her house in preparation for a CPS visit. The next day, Sunday, February 4th, Lauren planned to drive over and check in on her sister, but she was wholly unprepared for what she'd find.

She worked, what time was it, 11 or 10? I worked from 10. I was there at 9.50 all the way to 5 o'clock, 5.15. After work, Lauren picked up her kids and drove over to Jenny's trailer to check in. When she got there, the front door was hanging open. This immediately struck Lauren as odd. After all, it was winter in Michigan. I pulled up, I walked up, you know, I called the name because the door was open, like it said.

So you called her name? I called her name and I was on the phone with my friend Jason at the time telling him all about how, you know, how my sister was being annoying, you know, I snagged her, whatever, you know, and how she's pissing me off so I'm going over there right now to see if she can find her phone in my car or whatever. And he's like, I'm like, okay, hold on one second because the door is open and all the lights are off. He's like, okay.

And then I called her name and then he was, I was like, okay, anyway, I'll call you later. I hung out with her. And then Jenny comes to the door dressed like a hobo and like in a skirt, jeans, and sweaters, and whatever. I don't even know exactly what her tops were, but I know jeans and a khaki skirt were on the bottom. Just thinking that was really weird. So that's not what Mom used to dress sometimes when she was being stupid.

What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid. What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid is that her mother used to lay her odd unmatching pieces of clothing during bad mental health episodes. Increasingly Jenny was starting to act more and more like her mother. She would ramble on about nonsensical things, have bouts of extreme paranoia, and just, you know, act erratic. Now Lauren could see a visual representation of the transformation that had been taking place for years as Jenny's mental health quietly declined. She had a khaki shirt layered over a pair of jeans, her hair was disheveled and like Lauren said, she looked like a homeless person.

Anyway, so I go out to the door, I left the kids in the car, you know, I'm playing, I'm just stopping at the door saying, you know, let's go out to eat or whatever. I did pretty good at work. I was going to say, let's find your phone and do whatever we got to do today. I noticed first thing that the dogs didn't run up to me or run outside or where the hell were the dogs? I know the door was open, but usually they're Visual you know I don't know where they are so I didn't hear any barking and I go Where are the girls because usually they at least have a TV out or something at the radio on She said you hear on it. I was in the door literally in the doorway and

She stood in the door. You didn't actually go in Yeah, I stood in the doorway Yeah, and then she said could I have a cigarette? And that's when I took my first step into the door, you know, into the actual house You gave her a cigarette? She asked for a cigarette and then I noticed it was too quiet I said where are you guys? And she said She's standing back towards the kitchen table where we were sitting the night before

There in the corner and she said I killed them And I said no She said I'm going to the deep end. All I said was no. Pretty much. I mean I don't remember if I said anything else but I just said no and not like no like no. You know like no you know. And she said I'm going to the deep ends of hell. And she said it's all over now and it's done. And that was, she wasn't looking at me, she was looking at the ground and it was Clay's face again. And it was monotone voice too. And it is done like that, like it is done. And she goes, I'm going and she looked up and she goes, you have to call the police on me, Lauren. And I said, okay. I said, but show me how you tried to kill yourself.

And as soon as she showed me the wrist, I had already backed up enough to where I was almost out the door, at the doorway again. And she showed it to me and I was on the porch by that. Like I took another step back and I was on the porch, or the deck or whatever, and I was starting to go, okay, Jen, you stay here, keep calm. And that's when I was like, you know. You hit 911. Yeah.

Before her police interview, investigators hoped that allowing Lauren to listen to her own 911 call over again would jog her memory and help them piece together what was going through Jennie's mind. Well, like, I mean, if you could listen to it right now, I was really calm in the beginning because I was still outside of the car when I called. And Jenny was like, are you calling?

And I said, I wanted to say no, because I didn't know I was fearful for my kids in the car and for myself, but I was walking around to get the address in the car. Were you like in the driveway or on the street? I walked around the back of the car because I'm thinking, I'm looking in the car after, because she showed me a wrist, I'm looking in the car for anything that I could grab out, you know what I'm saying, if she comes after me, I don't know. And then I walk up, like I walk up. Did she have anything in her hands?

No. Nothing? No. Nothing like that? I think she may have been smoking a cigarette because I gave her one. Okay. But I gave her the lighter to use and she gave it back to me. But I'm walking around the back of the car,

standing behind the station wagon thinking that's the safest place if I have to run because I know my car is locked and I have the keys in my pocket. So I'm standing back there and I'm saying, yes, Jennifer, I'm calling, you know, whatever. I started on a dispatch. I told them, you know, I don't know what's going on.

I know, and then they're like, Manny Hatcher, you know, I have to tell us. And I'm thinking, you know, what is there to tell, I couldn't even fathom what am I supposed to say, you know, and I remember telling them that, yeah, she harmed herself, and she said that she killed her kids. When police arrived at the scene and entered the trailer,

they found Jenny pacing around, ready to be taken to the, quote, depths of hell. Their eyes were quickly drawn to the quote depths of hell. Their eyes were quickly drawn to the first bloody scene. Three dead dogs piled up inside a crate. Jenny hadn't stopped there. She even stabbed the pet mouse inside its cage. As officers made their way to the back bedroom they they could see that tragically, Jenny was

telling the truth about her kids. Eight-year-old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to her five-year-old sister Ashley. Their throats had been cut. Jennifer, you know Mark, right? You've been talking to him? Like I said, I'm Dave. We both work here for the Sheriff's Office,

okay? We want to talk to you about what's going on, okay? Before we do that, can you look at me while we're talking? Put your hair in your face so I can see it. There you go. Look at me. There you go. Before we do that, hey, maintain eye contact with me, okay? Before we do that, we have to read you your rights, okay? You know what those are, you've heard about them, you've seen them on TV. All right, I'm gonna read them to you, okay? Exactly as they are on the list here.

All right, and then we're done. I'd like you to sign them, okay? And then we can talk. We can't talk until we do that, all right? Are you cold? I don't wanna talk about it. Are you just nervous? I don't wanna talk about it. Are you just nervous? I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it. Okay, let me just read you your rights here, okay?

Now, you have the right to remain silent. First of all, Jennifer, okay, take a deep breath, okay? Get ahold of yourself, all right? Just let them know. Get ahold of yourself, all right? Now you're upset, and you got every right to be, okay? Well, you have to go through this, all right? Okay.

We got to go through this, alright? Okay. You understand all those? Yes. Okay. And then the last question is... Let me see, sorry. I don't know. I want to talk about it. Oh, babe. Let me finish this, sir. I have read these statements of my rights. I understand what what my rights are I'm willing to make a statement answer questions I do not want a lawyer at this time I understand and know what I'm doing no promises and threats been made to me no pressure or coercion of any

kind of abuse against me okay you understand that okay all that knowing all that you want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it. Okay. Jennifer, is it because you want to talk to an attorney? I don't even want to think about it. We just want to get a couple things straight to make sure we got everything right, okay? So we don't want to get anything wrong. Okay. If you want to talk to an attorney, that's one thing, but if you're just a little nervous about it, then you can work that out.

You were very cooperative during the forensic exam, which we really appreciate. Nurses were very pleased with that. Are you cold? No, I just don't want to talk about it. You want a blanket? No. You need your blanket or, you know,

make a cup of coffee or something? Okay, so, I'm gonna erase my brain. If you erase my memory, then I'll definitely love you for that one. Okay. Sit tight here for a minute. In case you couldn't understand her, at the end she said, erase my brain. Erase my memory, and I'd love you for that one.

We can only imagine what's in there. Do you understand what we're trying to do here? You know, like I said, if you want an attorney or something like that, I can understand it. Just try it. So now I'm just I'm just talking to you. We just want to make sure we got things right. We want to make sure we get them understood. We don't want to make any mistakes. That's why we want to talk to you. I don't want to, of course, I don't want to talk to you to talk. And if you want to talk to attorney, but if you're just a little nervous, we can wait. We can get you some water, you know, just have you relax a little bit. Okay, get you a blanket. It is cold in there. I'm even

cold in there. It's clear that these guys were getting nervous that Jenny may decide not to talk. So they started to employ a little bit of good cop bad cop. Just before the one detective was able to follow through on his promise of some water and a blanket, the other came bursting back into the room. What do you think about that? Wanna sit and think about it with a little bit of water and a blanket? May I have some water? Okay, I'll get you some water. Alright, you don't want to talk to us, is that right?

You do not want to talk to us? I don't want to really talk about it. You can answer, I can see if I can answer it. I can't, perhaps. Okay, stand up then. Now open his back. They took her back to her cell and plan to try again the next day. Let me just reiterate.

Yesterday you said you didn't want to talk to us because you just weren't up to us at all. Today you want to talk to us? Jennifer? Mm-hmm. Today you do want to talk to us without an order of presence? It doesn't matter. Okay.

You say it doesn't matter, that means you want to talk to us? Okay. He made a broken pair. Yeah, that's why I came off. Try this one first. Jennifer, do you take any kind of medication normally? No.

Nothing? No. Okay. Nothing for any type of psych- psychiatric or nothing for any type of physical? No. Nothing? No. Okay. Nothing for any type of psychedric or nothing for any type of physical? No. Once Jennifer really starts to open up to detectives in this interview, it's clear that she absolutely needed to be on psychiatric medicine. It's not often that we gain access to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe

mental illness. But Jennifer's case is unique. We'll get back to that later. Well, what do you want to, uh? I don't know. Well, we know why we're here, right? Yeah. Okay.

We know what happened. You know what happened, right? The big question is why. That's why we want to talk to you. I don't know. I really don don't know. I really don't fucking know. It's like the night before,

I just stay up all night long. Every time I close my eyes, I keep having bad dreams. They're like dead people or whatever. And blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, what the hell? This is just weird. So I didn't even think about that. Does this happen to you frequently that you dream about dead people or?

No, never. I watch freaking scary movies. None of that scares me. First time you've ever had a type of thing. OK. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my kid, we use so much side by side all the time. But anyway. So I was like, I'm all night for that. No big deal. We'll come next day. No big deal.

No problems, nothing. What day would that have been? I don't remember. I don't even know what day it is right now. Today's Monday. When did I get here? Yesterday, it was Sunday. Okay, so this was Saturday morning.

Everything was fine. And then all of a sudden, my sister was there, my sister Lauren, she's the one who calls you guys. Right? She was at my house and all of a sudden, it was like I just kept freaking hearing this voice in my head telling me all this shit.

She's like, Yanny stop talking to me, stop listening to that voice or whatever the hell you're doing, stop doing it. How did she know you were listening to the voice? I was telling her what it was fucking saying and shit. It was Saturday morning? No, if I got here Sunday, that would have been Saturday afternoon. Now keep in mind, the average person would probably freak out upon hearing their sibling talking to themselves as if they're having a conversation.

But for Lauren, this was nothing new. She was no stranger to brushing off the nonsensical ramblings. She even said to Jenny, stop talking to those voices or whatever it is that you're doing. In Lauren's sane mind, addressing her older sister's mental illness was at the bottom of the list of priorities. When Jenny's pipes froze and the trailer descended into chaos, Lauren's first concern was the safety of her nieces. Basically she thought, okay, Jenny isn't a danger to herself or them. She's made it this far in life. Let's just deal with the issues that we can fix right now.

Which, you know, makes a lot of sense. And what did you guys do? Were you guys picking things up around the house? Yeah, they were helping me clean up my house and shit. Okay, so you were? I've been drinking way too much in my house with a sack. What were you guys cleaning it for? She said, I was the first single to get called,

I was gonna lose my kids. The house was that bad. I mean, it had to be cleaned up, so they came over to help me clean it up. And I was gonna, my sister paid them 10 bucks a piece to help me that day, and I was gonna pay her back the money. So I was broke.

Did, were you drinking when they were there? I had a couple of beers when they were there. and I was gonna pay her back the money. So I was broke. Were you drinking when they were there? I had a couple of beers when they were there. How often do you drink? You said you've been drinking a lot lately. And how much? Like every day. Maybe about like a 12 pack a day, but I was cutting, I was trying, no.

Between six to 12 pack a day. Okay. Usually by natural ice beer or whatever. But they came over and they were helping me out of that and I just started freaking out. And then after they left is when freaking I started to actually. Do you hear voices when you drink?

No, I don't think I've ever had to have to meet ever in my entire life. It was just like somebody freaking right in my fucking head. And it wasn't even like hearing voices. I could hear it and it was like I was reading it at the same time, if that makes any sense. It wasn't even like hearing hearing voices I could hear it and it was like I was reading it at the same time if that makes any sense it wasn't weird shit go to this part of the house one of that part of the house what are this part of the house what is that part of the house it was like all

nice and sweet at first and then freaking it started getting freaking weird and then it just freaking got evil the freaking demon telling me and then I forget started listening to it I guess because then I forget started taking the it started saying so about freaking people being on site ready to come in and kill us and all this weird shit, and that freaking I didn't have to do this or that. If I don't want my kids to die, do this or that. And then freaking, after like freaking probably

about half an hour, hour of that, freaking I finally freaking told me to get my kids all ready and take them down the street to their friend's house so that they wouldn't die that night. And then halfway there, it said take them back home because they already killed a dead house. Did you actually take them down the street? Yeah, I did.

All of what Jenny is recounting to police had happened after her sister Lauren left that night. I'm still confused. I'm still just figuring this out. It was like, what the hell, man? What did I do? I actually freaking did that. Oh, it gets weirder.

This gets really weirder. All that happens, and then, OK, fine, get back in the house. I'm like, well, what the hell, you know, this is just- Why did you turn back? Kids' voices told me to, whatever voice told me to, and freaking not to go down there because they were already dead.

Blah, blah, blah. And then somebody would go back to the house and then say, go check in the morning because then you'll find out they're not dead. But don't go over there now. And then blah, blah, blah. And back and forth and back and forth. And kept saying stuff about how people would come over

and they're gonna kill me. And I never know when they finally broke in the house and So you returned to the house with the girls because the voice tells you Back and forth and then it was like getting nicer again It was like well you have to do this and you have to do that You know this for your girls to make them nice to you. You gotta take care of your kids and blah blah blah And then it started getting evil again. Were you gonna put the girls to bed? Yes, I did. Were they sleeping on the floor? So we were going I all sleep together on the bed

because it was like, well, whatever, whatever. And then this voice is telling me all this weird shit. So we're, because we haven't done this in years. So I used to sleep on the couch. Then we were going to freaking sleep on the bed. So freaking we made up the bed on the floor in the girls' room and freaking we were going to lay out. I actually laid out in the middle of them.

Lexa was on this side. I mean, I was rubbing her head. And Ashton was on this side. And that was the same thing with her. And we were going to sleep like that. We were all like, oh I love you girl. I have good dreams Oh, I know It was all good like that and then freaking I got up and the voice started talking to me again It's freaking tell me this is it girls asleep at that point when you got up. Yeah

Okay, and freaking I actually went in front of him and I had the butcher knife up to my neck And I didn't do that and then freaking the voice is telling me to do this or that and it's telling me to go kill My kid before the people break into my house to kill them and hurt them even worse than what they were going, what would have happened or whatever, just kill them so that it doesn't happen. And I wasn't gonna do that, I was just sitting there going, listening with a freaking knife in my hand going,

oh my God, oh my God, oh God, if anybody walks in here, fuck, motherfucker. So the voices in Jennifer's head were apparently telling her that if she didn't kill her kids, people would break into her house, take them away from her, and they'd suffer a fate far worse than death. Whatever that is. At this point, she had long stopped drinking beers, hoping sobriety would make all of this

go away, but it wasn't working. At first, Jennifer refused to give in to the voices and follow through with the murders. Instead, she put the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to her own throat and considered killing herself. After deciding against that, she went and sat in the front room, still clutching the knife, and waited for people to arrive. If the voices were right and someone did break in, she'd be ready to defend her family. Some time passed and obviously nothing happened. The voices were gone too. So thinking the whole ordeal was over, she went back and laid in bed with her girls, eventually falling asleep until morning.

Yeah, go back to when you were at 730, you woke them up, put their coat and shoes on. Yeah, and then we were going to go leave and freaking go somewhere. They were like, no, we can't leave or whatever. Where were you going to go, do you think? Across the street to the pay phone to call my dad for some reason.

Okay. To try to have him come pick us up because I was freaking so scared. I don't even know if we even went outside. I don't remember before we turned back in and freaking didn't. And then it was like nothing was happening. And then all of a sudden I just even know if we even went outside. I don't remember before we turned back in and freaking didn't. And then it was like nothing was happening.

And then all of a sudden I just freaking grabbed a knife and did it. All right, when that happened, where did you get the knife from? I think it was in the kitchen. And how did the girls get back in the bedroom? Did you tell them to go back? Yeah.

And they went back in the bedroom. And they were scared. I know. Who went first? Alexa. Your younger first? Alexa. Your younger one? The bigger one. I actually thought, I swear, I was telling Alexa, I love you, you'll never be hurt, I won't let that happen to you.

And then she's like, get Ashley, and I was like, okay. And then I walked out of the fucking bedroom and I can't even believe Alexa said that. I don't believe Lux said that. I don't believe Lux actually said that. Yeah, I don't believe that. I must have heard that in my fucking head. There's no way. Did she actually run from the room? Yeah, she was hiding under the kitchen table.

This was clearly difficult for Jennifer. Talking about what she did to her own two little girls. You can hear in the audio that she seems to show some remorse, but her train of thought keeps getting redirected away from the worst parts of that morning. Did you bring Ashley back in the bedroom next to Alexa? Is that where she died? Is that where it happened? I think, yeah, I don't think Ashley died until the bedroom.

Did you carry her back to the bedroom? Yes, but she was, I thought she was dead in the kitchen, but I don't think she was. I don't think she died until she got out of the bedroom. Did you carry her back to the bedroom? Yes, but she was, I thought she was dead in the kitchen, but I don't think she was. I don't think she died until she got out of the bedroom. Did you carry her back to the bedroom? Yes, but she was, I thought she was dead in the kitchen, but I don't think she was. I don't think she died until she got out of the bedroom. Did you carry her back to the bedroom? Yes, but she was, I thought she was dead in the kitchen,

but I don't think she was. I don't think she died until she got back to the bedroom. Did you actually stab her in the kitchen? Yes. And how did you stab her? Where was she at? Was she on the floor, on the ground, on her back? Was she standing up?

I don't remember. Did you stab her? Maybe I didn't do it in the kitchen then. I don't know. Okay. But you took her back to I didn't do it in the kitchen then. I don't know. Okay. But you took her back to the bedroom at some point. Was she fighting you? No.

I don't think so. She probably was. I would have been fucked. You laid her next to Alexa? Was Alexa already dead at this point? Yeah. And when you laid Ashley, was she dead when you laid her next to Alexa, or did you lay her down then?

I laid her down, and I think I made sure she was dead. I don't know. When you say you made sure she was dead, what did you do? See if there was pulp. Can you show me how, can you put the cup down for a second? Show me what hand you held the knife in, and show me how you actually, what motion you did. I don't know, I just, like, that?

I think? So you're holding your hand up like this and coming down with a knife? Do you hold the knife like this or like this? In the footage, the detective shows two different stabbing motions. The first one he demonstrates is an overhead downward motion, while the other is an underhanded swiping upwards. Were the voices still talking to you when you were doing this? They were doing this all day long.

I wouldn't freaking leave my house after I did it. I actually thought I saved them. And then I was trying to look around the house and freaking everything the voices told me the night before. And the voices were actually even telling me, I think, that freaking, everything the voices told me the night before. And the voices were actually even telling me, I think that freaking they were gonna drive me crazy. So I killed my kids by the morning time.

And I was like, no, at one point I think. I don't remember everything. You know, it was something like that. It was sometime shortly after 7.30 yesterday morning when the girls died, right? Yep. Okay. And then how long after that did the dogs die? You recall?

Not long, I was walking around the house and I kept thinking about freaking weird shit about I was going to go burn in hell now and demons were gonna come pick me up from the front of my house in a freaking red car with fingers and toenails and freaking seat covers and shit. I don't know, it was fucking freaky. Then all of a sudden I was like,

the dogs are still alive, freaking I wanna be tortured to death when they drop me down into hell. I gotta kill the animals. Kill the animals, how'd you do that? Oh shit. There's no water for you to. I stucked an ice in it and just went down

and knew that they were dead. Were they on the ground? Were you holding them? They were on the green blanket. The angel, the big mom, actually got away and ran into the kitchen. I had to chase her down for her back. And I told them it was for their own good.

And you put on a blanket. I threw them in the cage. Okay, and then what are the little ones called? The puppies, they were Jasmine and, what was the other one, Sam. And they were the offspring of Angel, that was their mom. What kind of dogs are they? I don't know.

She was full Pomeranian and I don't know what dad was. She just got pregnant. Okay. And then what about that mouse and the pet mouse? I had to kill the mouse too. How did you do all of it then? I think I broke it, a snack or something. Did you try to stab it?

Probably. Jennifer had killed every living being in her small trailer. Her two defenseless girls, three tiny Pomeranians, two of them puppies, and even the pet mouse. And it wasn't just the dog she had to chase down to finish the job. Despite their youngest age, her two daughters knew exactly what was going to happen, and they tried to get away. There's nothing I can say to prepare you for this next part.

It is absolutely heartbreaking. Just to go back, just so I can clarify. Alexa was killed in her bedroom. She killed right where we found her, on the floor, on that little makeshift bed that you guys were sleeping on. And then while Alexa was being killed, Ashley ran out of the room and she ran into the kitchen. Run to the table. And she was hiding under the table. And I pulled her out. And did you did you stab her under the table at all? Did you try like

not to let her sleep? Like say come out come out or or or how did you get her out from under the table? Just grabbed her arm and pulled her out I think. You grabbed her arm and pulled her out? Because there's a little bit of blood under the table. So we're wondering, did she get stabbed under there at all? She got stabbed in the bedroom first, and Lexa pushed her out of the way, and then I did to Lexa. So Asher was-

Asher was already bleeding. Okay, so Asher was bleeding, that's why there's a little bit of blood on the table. Okay, so then once you get Ashley from underneath the table you carry her back to the bedroom. And you lay, did she fight more? Yes. Okay, and did you lay her down right next to Alexa and that's where she died? Yes. Okay, and did she try to get back up and run again?

Yes. Okay. All right. Throughout this part of the interview, Jennifer with a blanket over her shoulders is using it to cover her face. She's hunched over in her chair, rocking back and forth. Did she say anything to you? No.

Jennifer, I know this is hard. Do you recall her saying anything to you? Jennifer, I know this is hard. Do you recall her saying this to you? Let me do it. Okay. Was she crying? Yeah. What was she saying? No, no, no mama don't do it.

Mama, she was scared as fuck. Okay. All right. Okay. And how many times do you think you stabbed her? I have no idea. I don't want to know. Okay. Do you remember how many times you stabbed Ashley?

I don't know. I'm sorry, Alexa? No, I don't want to know that either. Okay. Do you remember when Ashley was stabbed the first time and put her in the room? Where was she stabbed? In the neck. In the neck?

Yeah. Okay. Do you remember when Ashley was stabbed the first time you ran out of the room? Where was she stabbed? In the neck. In the neck? Was it a deep wound or was it just kind of nicker? I don't know. Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay everyone in the trailer that

morning. She ended her daughter's lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area, effectively severing their windpipes, as well as important arteries. Besides the neck wounds, though, there were no defensive injuries. These poor little girls couldn't even begin to fight off their mother. All they could do was run and try to find a hiding spot but I've done acid a few times. You did acid? How long ago did you do acid?

When I was a teenager. OK. But recently, have you been using any kind of street drugs? Nothing whatsoever. Any kind of prescription drugs? No. OK. And have you ever seen anybody about any kind

of problems in your head? Ever talked to anybody about it? Go see a doctor or? I had a couple of strengths when I was a kid. That's because I was getting molested and stuff. My mom always stopped taking me to church. OK. Does your mom have some problems?

My mom? Oh, God. My mom's a paranoid schizophrenic manic depressive. Through interviewing both Jennifer and her sister Lauren, detectives were beginning to put the pieces together. Jennifer had been on a slow path to mental ruin. She had self-awareness and she knew she was displaying many of the same odd behaviors her mother had shown as her mental health declined.

This wasn't her first rodeo. Jennifer knew how these things eroded. She felt herself losing grip on reality and she had been desperately trying to hide it. You 21-year-old Lauren Kukla loved her family. Her biggest concern was making sure all of the children were safe, well-fed, and loved. To make this kind of life a reality for her two nieces, 8-year-old Alexa and 5-year-old Ashley, this often meant cleaning up her sister's messes. Her oldest sister Jennifer was a functioning alcoholic with constant money problems. And so those are the issues Lauren often helped to address. These surface issues paled in comparison to the turmoil happening in Jennifer's mind.

The Kukla family was no stranger to mental illness, which somewhat blinded Lauren to her sister's worsening mental state. At the same time Jennifer was trying to hide her mental illness, she often became nervous after saying what she perceived to be the wrong thing, which was basically anything that might indicate she was losing her mind. Lauren was so concerned with these surface-level issues that Jennifer's feeble attempts to hide what was actually going on worked. Things got quietly worse until February 4, 2007, when Jennifer murdered her two little girls. Apparently Jennifer's paranoia and hallucinations reached a peak that

weekend. She told psychiatrists that voices were telling her that if she didn't kill her children they'd be kidnapped, sexually abused, tortured, murdered and then eaten. In her distorted mind, Jennifer thought slitting their throats and ending it all quickly was an act of compassion. It was, from her perspective, the only way she could save them. Have you heard from the voices since all this happened? Well, like, I said, all morning after it happened, I stayed in the house, and I was like, I couldn't leave.

I was like, I was sitting there waiting for somebody to come pick me up, to take me straight to hell. And it was like, no big deal. It was like, it was normal. So were you there all day then? I was there all day. Did you leave at any point? No.

I'd go to my car to get to your bus, I'd go right back in there. That was it. Was your door left open all day? Yes. Why did you do that? I was afraid to my car to get to your butt cycle, right back in the house. That was it. Was your door left open all day? Yes. Why did you do that? I was afraid to shut it. Why?

I don't know. It was like, if I shut it, then the freaking demons would come faster or some crap. Did you get cold? Mm-hmm. Where were you at during the day? Mostly sitting on the couch, I think. Did you go back in the bathroom at all?

A couple times but I couldn't stay back there. What'd you do? Which bedrooms? You go to your bedroom or the girls? The girls. Oh and I went back in the bathroom and had to change my clothes and freaking get all cleaned up for some fucked up reason. How did you get cleaned up? Was that your water wasn't running? Like the water like out of the toilet, you know the... Tank? Yeah it was fucked, I don't know. Okay when you say you got changed what were you wearing that night and then born. I don't remember. I could have danced with my sister. So after killing her children and all of the pets, Jennifer stayed in the house with their dead bodies all day. She paced around until the voices apparently told her to clean it up. With no running water, though, she decided to take the lid off the toilet tank and use the water in there to rinse off before replacing her bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry. When Lauren came upon

the carnage and saw her sister dressed like a quote hobo, she suddenly realized what had been happening this whole time. At that moment, Lauren didn't see her sister. She saw her mother. Jennifer had become the splitting image of her mother. So her actions that day, that day and that evening, surprised because you knew your mom had acted similar to that. I mean, it was surprising, but it was more interesting because when my mom would do,

I mean, she wouldn't do stuff exactly like that. She never told me. She would just tell me about what had been happening. Right. I mean, because my mom used to say, I remember her telling me, Jenny told me one time that she, my mom pulled over the car right over on the wheel of a plank in your Speedway, and and she said I'm gonna drown this in her in my piss you

know and she pulled her pants down and she was gonna drown herself in the pit there was multiple suicide attempts you know what I'm saying not in front of me but Jenny said you guys are lucky you never had it as bad as we did. She I guess she chased Lizzie around the backyard with a butcher knife one time and like all this stuff I don't know I don't remember. Too young, I guess, or I should have doubted, I have no idea, but she would tell me stuff about Keith Richards, and when we lost our house, how Keith Richards was gonna buy it,

and she was gonna get married to him. She told me about this guy who was like a healer, and like, you know, like, he was a healer. He had lost the house. I'm not gonna stop. My lost the house. I'm lost. My grandma was sick of paying for it. When did your dad go to prison? I was seven, 14 years old.

He's still in prison for that? No, no, three years. That was your natural father? No, I'm sorry. I thought you said the other day that he was still in prison. I wish. When's the last time you had contact with him? Call me that night. Sunday night. After he heard his...

After he heard it. He lives right... Me and my husband are separated, like I said. He lives three condos away from my husband's mom, my mother-in-law. Looking back at all the strange things Jennifer had said and done made so much more sense when compared to her mother's decline, but hindsight is 20-20. Let's rewind back to when Jennifer became paranoid that the two people who helped clean up her trailer were going to call CPS and turn her in. She said, I mean, she talked, I guess, briefly to this Jessica girl about how she her in. She didn't she wishes she didn't say that because she probably those girls probably think or that guy that girl probably thinks that she's

Not for liking those kinds of books. I mean that's Like telling that you know, I just like to read those type of books, you know, they interest me a lot and then she said To me that she's starting Not to remember but starting to understand why she was drinking Why she would have had a drinking problem? Yeah, she said she understands why she has a drinking problem For us the people on the outside. It's not at all surprising that Jennifer suffered from addiction But in Jennifer's mind this all stemmed from her

hypnosis as a teenager. that she knew biker crews, like vigilantes or something. She didn't say vigilantes, but that's the only name of a biker crew I've ever heard in my life. So stuff like that, that she was affiliated with them. She said that Jim Real, which I know was a boss at DeGinco and was also the owner, part owner of TJ's, where she worked at a golf course for a couple years, summer and stuff like that.

She said that he, she wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she would go there and if she was actually doing the work that—you know, that they—she told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it. She's thinking that she was brainwashed into thinking she was doing that kind of work when really she was doing something else. She says that that was like a lapse in her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life. She asked me if I remembered her.

This was all Saturday night? Okay. She said, I think, Lauren, that I used to kill people. And I said, I really, I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing it as an issue, like she was saying it almost not in a joking manner, but not to where it's like, Warren, I think I used to kill people. You need to help me or something. You know, she was like, I think you used to kill people. I'm like, Jenny, where are you getting this from?

She's like, I don't know. I just, she's like, I don't understand. I don't remember. I don't remember. And then she said, she said, I don't know, I just, she's like, I don't understand, I don't remember. I don't remember. And then she said, she said like, I don't remember that like three times, you know, in a row. And then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny, you know, and I remember growing up,

like she used to have like, I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do like candle things in her room and like she'd walk around the, like you know what I'm saying? Like weird shit like that. Like seance almost. Like a seance or like a demonic something or other. But I mean, she, at that time I know that she had had

some experiences with drugs. I don't know what, because I was nine years younger, but I know, I mean, my mom busted pot in the house. She found plants and she like threw them against the wall. That was, they were all in the basement of the kids. Me and my old, Lizzie shared a room upstairs for a while, and then when my dad started raping the kids, like right before Jenny turned like ten or something, twelve, I don't know, he made the bedrooms downstairs for them.

So it was almost like they were, I mean they weren't finished, there was tile on the floor, but it was like they were drywall and stuff like that. They had separate rooms. And Lizzie was in this room. Joey was in the middle, and then Jenny was at the far end. And she used to come and see boys and stuff like that. And they do, I mean, man vestage, the one that Lizzie is, Lizzie's fiance now, I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever.

I didn't know, and I wouldn't tell my mom because they would tell me to shut up and they'd tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was stuff under the, I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs, there was big spiders, there was ghosts, whatever.

You know what I'm saying? And I literally, I really believe that they, even if they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you know what I mean? To where they thought that this was real, you know, or at least maybe she lived with that. She used to cut, like, I remember one time she cut Slayer into her arm, and I was like, is that, you know, a band?

She was into heavy metal, and she's like, no, and she's like, I didn't even do this, you know, and I could remember her, not that time, but I could remember her cutting her leg and cutting her arms and stuff like that, And my mom would send her to the counselor, but because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever, she would take them out because in her mind counselors and stuff like that were bad. You know, police were good always. Police were good. But counselors were bad.

Teachers were bad. They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't know. But counselors were bad, teachers were bad. They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't know what they, you know, all this stuff. And she would say that they're gathering information on us. They want, they want us, they want us, they want us. She would say like we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's descendants. We're, you know, all this stuff. And that's what I had to go up around. I mean, I got past it. I'm working, I mean, I worked through it. I understand that she had an illness, but I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom the way that she was. You were used to that kind of thing.

I was used to it and I never thought that she would hurt anybody because my mom never threatened. It didn't alarm you because you had been exposed for so long. Right, right. It didn't at all. And I mean, I've been working through that, but at the same time, I remember my co-workers like, how would you know that she was gonna hurt anybody?

And she's like, she said that anything that Jenny could have said, I mean, we rolled right off my back at the state that I am at right now. So it did, you know what I'm saying? And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for me to get past my past with my mom. Hard for me to even say that I can't believe what she was telling me about,

knowing Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my mom and I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the, knowing Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my mom and I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth and that's my mom, you know? So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think, what if mom, I don't wanna say that, I don't wanna feel like you, or you guys think that I'm crazy,

but what if, you know, maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom telling her this stuff, but like maybe something my mom said was true. Maybe, you know, we are, she was special or Jenny is special. That's why she tried to protect her before, you know, and that's why my mom had to be put on meds was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever. I don't know, you know what I'm saying? And I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something. I don't know.

I keep problem with that. But it's in some way hella high. In some way connected to the hypnotism. Who does she think hypnotized me? She didn't disclose that information to me. She said that. She told Al that she knew biker crews like vigilantes or something. She didn't say vigilantes,

but that's the only name of a biker crew I've ever heard in my life. So like stuff like that, that she was affiliated with them. She said that Jim Real, which I know was a boss at DeGinco and was also the owner, part owner of TJ's where she worked at a golf course for a couple of years, and stuff like that. She said that he, she wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she would go

there and if she was actually doing the work that—you know, that they—she told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it. She's thinking that she was brainwashed into thinking she was doing that kind of work when really she was doing something else. She says that that was like a lapse in her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life. She asked me if I remembered her.

This was all Saturday night? Okay. She said, I think, Lauren, that I used to kill people. And I said, I really, I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing it as an issue, like she was saying it almost not in a joking manner, but not to where I was like, Lauren, I think I used to kill people. You need to help me or something. You know, she was like, I think you used to kill people. I'm like, Jenny, you know, where are you getting this from?

She's like, I don't know. I just, she's like, I don't understand. I don't remember. I don't remember. And then she said, she said like, I don't remember that like three times, you know, in a row. And then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny, you know, and I remember growing up, like she used to have like,

I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do like candle things in her room and like she'd walk around the camp. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like weird shit like that. Like sands almost type thing. Yeah, like a sands or like a demonic something or other. But I mean, she, at that time I know

that she had had some experiences with drugs. I don't know what, because I was nine years younger, but I know, I mean, my mom busted pot in the house. She found plants and she'd like throw them against the wall. Because they were all in the basement. The kids, me and my old, my Liz Lizzie shared a room upstairs for a while. And then when my dad started raping the kids, like right before Jenny turned like ten or something, twelve, I don't know, he made the bedrooms downstairs for them.

So it was almost like they were, like—I mean, they weren't finished. There was tile on the floor, but it was was like they were drywall and stuff like that they had separate rooms and Lizzie was in this room Joey was in the middle and Jenny was at the far end and she used to come and see boys and stuff like that and they do I mean Matt Vasej the one that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiance now and like I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever I didn't know and I wouldn't tell them because they would tell me to shut up and tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was there was stuff under the

stairs. I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs. There was big spiders. There was ghosts, whatever, you know what I'm saying. And I literally I really believe that they even if they weren't brainwashed that they had done something to themselves, you know what I mean, to where they thought that this was real. You know, or at least maybe she lived with that.

She used to cut, like, I remember one time she cut Slayer into her arm. I was like, is that, you know, a band? She was into heavy metal. And she's like, no. And she's like, I didn't even do this. You know, and I could remember her, not that time, but I could remember her cutting her leg and cutting her arms and stuff like that. And my mom would send her to the counselor, but because my mom was emotionally disturbed

as well and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever, she would take them out because in her mind counselors and stuff like that were bad. You know, police were good, always. Police were good. But counselors were bad. Teachers were bad. They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't know what they, you know, police were good, always. Police were good. But counselors were bad. Teachers were bad. They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't know what they, you know, all this stuff.

And she would say that they're gathering information on us. They want us. They want us. They want us. She would say like we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's descendants. We're, you know, all this stuff. And that's what I had to go around.

I mean, I got past it. I'm working. I mean, I worked through it. I understand that she had an illness. But I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom, the way that she was. You were used to that kind of thing. I was used to it,

and I never thought that she would hurt anybody because my mom never threatened me. It didn't alarm you because you had been exposed for so long. Right, right. It didn't at all. And I mean, I've been working through that, but at the same time, I remember my foster was like, how would you know that she was gonna hurt anybody?

And she's like, she said that anything that she was gonna you know hurt anybody and she's like She said that anything that Jenny could have said I mean we roll right off my back at the state that I am it great So it did you know what I'm saying and then she started saying you know It's hard for me to get past my past with my mom hard for me to even say that I can't believe what she was telling Me about knowing Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my mom and I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth. Sure. So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think, what if mom, I don't want to say that I don't want to feel like you or you guys think

that I'm crazy, but what if you know maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom telling her this stuff, but like maybe something my mom said was true. if, you know, maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom telling her this stuff, but like maybe something my mom said was true. Maybe, you know, we are, she was special or Jenny is special. That's why she tried to protect her before, you know, and that's why my mom had to be put on meds was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever. I don't know. You know what I'm saying?

And I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something. I don't know. Their mother's unchecked mental illness had set the stage. Jennifer's life was a perfect storm and she knew it. What else do you need to know? Anything else you can think of about this whole incident? I never should have had kids. I looked at my mom and said, well, she's psycho.

Mixed your apple juice and nobody else. Don't have kids. And there it is. Hearing these final words is haunting. Her admission. I should have never had kids. It's not just a regret. It's the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle of trauma and mental illness. She saw and experienced the fallout of her own mother's struggle, lived through

it and yet found herself walking down a similar path, trapped by the very symptoms she once feared. Jennifer was raised by someone incapable of loving, protecting, and caring for her in the way every child deserves. This was a parent who not only failed to protect, but often directly exposed them to traumatic experiences. After living through that trauma, this same parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services. Perhaps Jennifer was set up to fail from the very start. In September of 2007,

about seven months after the tragic murders, 30-year-old Jennifer Kukla went to trial for two counts of first-degree murder. Three separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore not criminally responsible. They felt she should be found guilty by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility. The jury, though, didn't buy it. They cited the feeble attempt at suicide, the inconsistencies in Jennifer's police interview compared to her psych interviews, and even witnessed testimony from her employer who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her kids during a conversation about being late for work because of them.

To top it off, even if Jennifer had been suffering an acute, psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law, if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not a defense. The jury rendered a guilty verdict while also acknowledging the obvious mental illness. She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the promise that she would receive at least some mental health care. The police officers who responded to the gruesome scene will never get the image out of their heads. Jennifer asked for her brain to be erased,

and I'm sure those officers wish for the very same thing. They remember seeing the two little girls laying side by side in their small bedroom, surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork, and even photos of them smiling with their mom. One deputy said this, You can only imagine their lifestyle. You could see that they didn't have much. But what they did have, they seemed to appreciate.

They seemed like they were happy, cute girls. You have to try hard not to think about it rationally. It was an irrational act. You never let it go. I'm going to be a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a

little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show that's coming up is called This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me. I know it's a very long title. Anyway, go find it on Apple and Spotify

and subscribe. Do it now. I will say one more thing because I know how you people operate. Yes, the show will be available on Plus commercial free, of course, and it's going to be on every tier as well. So no more mix ups. But you do help us out tremendously still by subscribing on Apple and Spotify. So So So So So you