Sword and Scale - Episode 293

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

In 1990, 11-year-old Robin Cornell and 32-year-old Lisa Story were brutally assaulted and murdered in their Cape Coral home. For over two decades, the case remained unsolved, leaving their families and community desperate for closure. Then, a single piece of evidence—a DNA match—finally brought an answer. But with that answer came an even deeper question: Are we all born free of evil, is it something that can grow within us over time?

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised. The last 30 years I've been violent. I am unviolent, you know. This is season 12, episode 283 of a little show we like to do here called Sword and Scale. The show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. I'm very jet-lagged after my recent trip to Belarus, so you might hear me pause in all the wrong places. I flew in via Lithuania for a quick vacay. That's near Latvia by the way if you're a big geography buff.

Anyway we better get started on the story. Creating really great retail experiences is tough, especially when you're juggling multiple stores, teams of staff, fulfillment centers, and separate workflows. It's a lot. But with Shopify Point of Sale, you can do it all without the complexity. Shopify's Point of Sale is a unified command center for your retail business. It brings together in-store and online operations across a thousand locations. Picture this. Endless aisle, ship to customer, buy online, and pick up in store. All simplified, so customers shop how they want and your

staff have the tools to close the sale every time. And let's be real, getting new customers is expensive. Shopify POS helps keep them coming back with personalized experiences and first-party data your marketing team will love. According to a report from EY, businesses using Shopify POS see real results like 22% better total cost of ownership and benefits equivalent to an 8.9% uplift in sales on average. Want more? Check out Shopify.com slash Sword and Scale. That's Shopify.com slash Sword and Scale, all lowercase, to learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity.

The house on Byron Avenue was typical of the quiet North Fort Myers neighborhood in Florida. A simple weather-worn home of only about 500 square feet. This quiet residential home is where Bonnie Nicely had been living with her boyfriend, Joseph Zeiler, since 1990. Their 25-year-old son had also lived on the property. On the night of August 26th 2016, the household erupted into an argument. Bonnie was used to the strained relationship between Joseph and their son. Arguments between them had escalated recently and she could hear them shouting at each other in the hallway. They had all three been drinking.

But Bonnie was plenty sober enough to know where this yelling was headed. It was getting out of control. Bonnie nicely gave her account of the night's events in her recorded statement, which was taken at 3.33 a.m. on August 27, 2016. She said her 25-year-old son and his girlfriend spent time drinking at a local pool hall. And after they got home, Joseph and their son began arguing. According to Bonnie, the two men, both drunk,

started swinging and grabbing at each other. Bonnie's account was that Joseph followed their son to the bedroom, where he pressed his left forearm against his son's neck, pinning him down on the bed while repeatedly striking him in the face with his right hand. Their son fought back, biting Joseph on the left forearm and right fingers to break free. While Bonnie, desperate to stop the assault, scratched Joseph's face as she tried to pull him away.

When their son managed to get loose, Joseph retreated to his bedroom, seemingly ending the altercation. Joseph's version was slightly different. It was a more complete version that started at the beginning, long before the night of the attack. I've been with my girl 26 years. I love her, you know. I got her pregnant, you know. My best was, I really tried to do my best with her. Just to drink non-stop. Just non-stop. I mean, it's all the time. And I understand I'm guilty too. I drink, but I don't drink every day. And it's just gotten too much, man. He's mean, he's arrogant, he's belligerent. He's, you know, it's a constant.

The house is just constantly full of struts. It's a constant strut. Their son and his girlfriend both worked, so the income was appreciated. But the bickering wasn't. Well this is his very first girlfriend since high school. And she's 45, she's a lot older, she's been working with him, trying to tell him, you know, right from wrong and how you're supposed to treat your parents, you know, but he berates her and he's mean to her and he don't hit her but

he is very verbally abusive to her mostly. According to Joseph, his son verbally targeted his much older girlfriend, but he treated his parents even worse when he drank. And apparently this man drank a whole lot. After about three or four he starts getting belligerent, you know, then about six, then he starts getting a whole lot. And you know, it was a couple years ago. And you know, what happened was, I never really kind of raised him with any physical discipline. You know, like old school way of where my father raised me,

you don't talk back to your father, you don't disrespect your family. So you get smacked. Or you get smacked. And of course you can't do that no more, you know? And it's just been building forever. The last time he beat the shit out of me, you know, I kept my hands at my side.

So fast forward to that night. They all went to a pool hall slash bar, but Joseph says he and his common law wife left after a couple of drinks, whereas his son stayed there with friends. Joseph says he even warned the friends that his son already had six beers in him, and they better not let him drink much more than that. A couple of hours later, though, his son called for a ride because, you know, he was too drunk to drive.

I said something and pissed him off. His mood changed instantly at the bar. He started acting dark and, you know, belligerent. So we got home, his mother asked him, please, I gotta go to work tomorrow, please, you guys, please do not fight tonight. Don't cause any trouble tonight. I need to get some sleep.

She hadn't had no sleep. So we went in our bedroom, laid down, everything was smooth, and they started fighting. you know, and I just had enough. I'm ready, I hit him. Bonnie's version is that their son bit Joseph, who then went to the bathroom and came out holding a pellet gun. Bonnie couldn't remember seeing him pump the weapon,

but she distinctly heard the sound of it firing as he raised it towards their son, who was now standing in the hallway. Joseph aimed the gun, fired, and hit his son on the chest. Stunned, their son Zach clutched his chest because he knew he was wounded. Without a word, he left the house with his girlfriend and drove to Lee Memorial Hospital for treatment, where he was immediately taken into surgery and admitted to the intensive care unit in critical condition. But that's not exactly how Joseph says it went down. It was quick, you know, to the point while

we were at it he started biting me. You know what I mean? I mean, he started gnawing on me. He bit me here on the finger first, then he bit me on the arm. Then he tried to bite me right in my jugular vein. And I had it. So I punched him in the face a couple times, got off him. I thought it was done. The girls thought it was done. But he's one of them people that won't, he don't ever let nothing go.

I was done. It was done. And I had enough, you know, and I figured it was time to give him the ass whoopin' he needed. I'm sorry, you know, that's the way my daddy did me. And I finally had enough, man. I'm 54 years old and I figured if I don't whoop his ass now, he's gonna walk all over me the rest of my life.

So I did. I whooped his ass. I gave him a good ass-meetin'. He deserved it. He needed it. And then I walked away. I got up, went in my room, I closed the door. Next, he says, Zack came back for more. When he barreled his way past his mom and girlfriend, knocking them over, on his way to attack Joseph again. That's when he reached for the pellet gun. He says he attempted to shoot his son in the shoulder but missed and hit him in the chest. A pellet gun, if you don't

already know, is similar to a BB gun. I have one in the glove compartment of my Cybertruck which I keep there in case the crazies try to mess with it. It operates with a use of air pressure that's built up by a pumping action. It can be in the form of a pistol or rifle. In this case it was a rifle. And it operates with the use of air pressure via a CO2 cartridge or by pumping it. In this case it was a rifle style pellet gun with pump action. The more you pump, the stronger the force of the pellet. And these weapons are marked as non-lethal, but in some cases they can kill you. In fact, they're used for killing rodents and other vermin on rural properties. But they can be very, very harmful when you point them at someone. And you should never do that unless you intend to hurt them and possibly kill them.

Joseph was using the Silver Strike, a well-known multi-pump air rifle made by Sheridan Products Inc. It's been popular since the mid-20th century and can shoot with enough force to damage small targets. In this case, it hit at close range, next to Zach's heart. I didn't realize that I'd actually hurt him with it. I mean, it's a pellet gun for Christ's sake. I can't get away from him. The only way I can get away from the noise in that house is to go out in that room and turn that air conditioner on. I can't hear

nothing. And that's why the officer was asking me. I didn't hear any sirens. I didn't know there was a traumatic sir. I actually just, I don't even think I, I seriously didn't even think I hit him with the public gun. I just wasn't trying to scare him. When officers from the Lee County Sheriff's Office arrived, they found the residents blood stained with droplets in the hallway and across both bedrooms. After a search of the property, deputies found Joseph hiding in a stand-alone shed outside the main house. He was lying on a cot with a pellet gun and a tin can of pellets beside him. At first, the cops thought he was deliberately hiding from them and refusing to answer their shouts at the door of the house.

But he wasn't even in the house and instead he had run from his own son and was hiding from him, not the police. He maintained that Bonnie had also struck him during the fight with their son, climbing on top of his back and scratching and hitting him in an attempt to break the two of them up. According to Joseph, he listens to his common-law wife, and when she told him to stop, he did. It was their son who pursued him. I mean, I walked away. They told me to stop, and I stopped.

My girl tells me to stop, I stop. Regardless of whose story you found more truthful, the fact stood on its own that Joseph had discharged a pellet gun and aimed it at his own son, injuring him. What were the police going to do? Just walk away and let them sort it out for themselves? I mean, they can't. So they found probable cause to charge Joseph Zeiler with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon He was formally arrested on August 28th 2016 and booked into the Lee County jail without incident

They took him through all the usual procedures Fingerprinting mugshot cheek swabbing all the fun stuff. He wasn't used to being behind bars cheeks wobbling, all the fun stuff. He wasn't used to being behind bars. For a man who'd lived quietly for so many years, the jail was a cold, unforgiving place, with a lot of noise. Noise was exactly the thing he tried to avoid, and also the reason he spent a lot of time

in his man cave shed, because his son and girlfriend were always fighting and he wanted some peace and quiet. Now noise wasn't really his concern. As he sat in that stark concrete cell, he had no way of knowing that detectives were uncovering something far beyond a family argument. Something that had been buried in silence, waiting to be found.

There were files, details, and unanswered questions that resurfaced in ways no one had expected. As the investigation unfolded, what detectives found would reach beyond Joseph, bringing in people who thought the past was long since buried. For now though, he sat quietly, unaware of the pieces that were about to fall into place. Creating really great retail experiences is tough, especially when you're juggling multiple stores, teams of staff, fulfillment centers, and separate workflows. It's a lot.

But with Shopify Point of Sale, you can do it all without the complexity. Shopify's Point of Sale is a unified command center for your retail business. It brings together in-store and online operations across a thousand locations. Picture this. Endless aisle, ship to customer, buy online, and pick up in store. All simplified, so customers shop how they want, and your staff have the tools to close the sale every time. And let's be real, getting new customers is expensive. Shopify POS helps keep them coming back with personalized experiences and first-party data your marketing team will love. According to a report from EY, businesses using Shopify POS see real results, like 22%

better total cost of ownership and benefits equivalent to an 8.9% uplift in sales on average. Want more? Check out Shopify.com slash Sword and Scale. That's Shopify.com slash Sword and Scale, all lowercase, to learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity In North Fort Myers, Florida Joseph Zeiler had led a quiet life for years Joseph Zeiler had led a quiet life for years. After an incident in 1998 left him with head trauma, a legal settlement allowed him to afford a modest home where he lived with his long-time partner, Bonnie Nicely. The two met back in May of 1990 and within a month, Joseph had moved in with her.

Following the accident, Bonnie became both his caregiver and power of attorney, managing his affairs as he struggled with memory issues. Though his driver's license was valid, he'd been advised not to drive. Bonnie and Joseph weren't the only ones living in the home though. Their 25 year old son, Zach, and his much older girlfriend also made a home there, in that 500-square-foot house. According to Joseph, their son was a heavy drinker who turned belligerent during binges. So one August night in 2016, a family argument turned violent. What began as a tense evening at a local bar ended with Joseph's son in the hospital

and Joseph behind bars, charged with aggravated battery. To detectives, it seemed like a straightforward case of domestic violence, a regrettable but isolated incident. But as Joseph sat in his cell, the investigation took an unexpected turn. A routine DNA collection linked him to something far more sinister, forcing open the door to a long-cold case that no one, least of all Joseph Zeiler, saw coming. For years, this case had haunted investigators and left two families broken and grieving. And now new questions were being presented.

Detectives had to ask, who was Joseph Zeiler, really? And what secrets had he managed to hide for so long? It was 1990 in Lee County, Florida. Jan Cornell was a single mom of an 11-year-old daughter named Robin, and she recently invited her friend Lisa Story to move in and become her roommate. Robin had asked her mother if she could have a sleepover with a friend that night, but Jan told her no because she hadn't cleaned her room.

Jan told Robin and Lisa that she was going out for the night to watch a football game at a friend's place as she walked out the door. Hours later, Jan had fallen asleep on her friend's couch. Having lost track of time, she rushed home. She only had minutes to get to her job as a nurse at Cape Coral Hospital. When she got home, it was around 4 a.m. Her world view changed forever. Both her roommate and her daughter were dead.

Jan Cornell had not planned to be out this late. She'd spent the previous day Oh, man. I'm gonna have to get my hands to the car. Jan Cornell had not planned to be out this late. She'd spent the previous day helping her new roommate Lisa settle into her new apartment, but around 10.45 p.m., Jan decided to head to her boyfriend's house to watch the basketball playoffs. She told Lisa and her 11-year-old daughter, Robin,

that she'd be home soon. But Jan fell asleep and didn't wake up until 4am when she realized she needed to get home and get ready for her morning shift at the hospital. We all hope that emergency operators are trying to do their best in these situations, but ordering someone to calm down when they've walked in on this kind of unexpected horror is just not going to work. As she approached the front door, Jan realized something was off. The doorknob lock that she usually avoided because it was faulty was locked.

She usually used the deadbolt and she couldn't get in with her key. She knocked, hoping someone would open up. For a minute she thought she heard footsteps on the stairs, but the door didn't open. Getting more anxious every time she knocked, Jan walked around the apartment to the sliding glass door and saw that it was slightly open and the vertical blinds were moving back and forth as if someone had just walked through. Inside Jan's eyes fell on something that stopped her in her tracks. Four framed photographs of her daughters placed in an unsettling display on the open ironing board in the

living room. Typically these pictures, three of Robin and one of her older daughter, were arranged on top of their stereo cabinet. Her panic escalated when she called out the names of Robin and Lisa and got no response. I came in my house, my door was open, nothing looked like it was stolen. I went to my boyfriend's bedroom, they became his daughter, and all my fears got me in it. I'm happy. She didn't even give me a damn. Nothing was done. It's a cruel irony, expecting calm from someone who's just found the unthinkable.

A dead child. After seeing the framed photographs out of place, Jan made her way up to the second floor, her heart racing with fear and confusion. As she reached the top of the stairs, she rushed into her bedroom where Robin slept with her. She found Robin, her precious 11- old, lying on the floor. Robin's body was positioned on her stomach, knees tucked beneath her, her buttocks exposed with a pillow placed under her. The sight was so unimaginable that Jan could hardly process it. Her maternal instincts took over as she rushed to her daughter's side, thinking, please God, let her be alive. Jan immediately turned Robin over, positioning

her flat on the floor, and began performing mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, her hands trembling with every breath she forced into her daughter's lungs. Robin's skin was cold and in her heart Jan understood. But even with that knowledge she couldn't stop. A mother's instinct would not let her give up. Not while there was even a shred of hope. All this time she screamed for Lisa to help her, but Lisa never came. Here's the lead detective on the case. She immediately went to her. She was cold. She was not breathing. She was screaming for Lisa to come and help.

Jan was able to get the phone and call 911. Lisa still was not coming. Of course, first responders, the police officers were there first and then medics and realized of course at that point that Robin had been killed and One of the she had asked something about what about Lisa, you know, why where is she? She didn't realize Lisa also had been killed within moments sirens broke the silence and Cape Coral police arrived at the apartment But for Jan standing over her daughter's lifeless body, the damage was already done.

The horror of that moment was something she would carry with her for the rest of her life. Oh my God, help me! Oh my God, help me, please! Both Lisa and Robin had been violently assaulted sexually and suffocated. As investigators arrived and began combing through the apartment, Jan remembered things from the days before that now seemed like signs she'd missed. Leading up to the murders, Jan had sensed something was off. For instance, one night she'd been jolted awake by noises outside her condo, as she

was sure that someone was prowling around her place. On May 9th, she was at her bedroom window, trying to get her cat to come back in. She spotted a man standing near the patio. This was a white male in jeans, a t-shirt, and a hat. He stared at her for an unusually long time before giving her a creepy smile and walking away. After Jan's 911 call, investigators from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and Cape Coral Police Department came to process the scene in painstaking detail. They captured every

corner on video, took fingerprints and gathered hair samples. This would be an intensive investigation that would leave no stone unturned. First, detectives talked to everyone living in the neighborhood surrounding Jan Cornell's apartment, asking if anyone saw or heard anything unusual, especially if they had seen the man in jeans and hat. They worked to track down anybody who matched that description, checking records and questioning every person who might have noticed suspicious activity in the area. But nobody seemed to know anything. Despite ongoing fears of the residents

and the immediate community, the case came to a standstill, cold. This is Robin's mother, Jan Cornell, years after the murders in a 2013 interview with Cape Coral Police. Not giving up. I'm not going away, I'm not giving up, and thankfully I've been able to keep the Cape Coral Place

Department on board with my promise. I've told them all about my promise. I promised the day I had to say goodbye that for as long as I was alive, I would never stop looking for who hurt them. And like I said, I've managed to establish a relationship and keep the Cape Coral plates on board. And they're still looking as well. We'll just keep doing this as long as, you know, we can reach out and ask people, because I'm convinced in my heart and soul that someone still in this community may have knowledge

of who did this crime and they keep holding back and holding back and every year I say it's time, it's time please come forward. In their search for suspects, investigators first focused on a man named Robert David Jackson who had lived nearby and had a history of disturbing behavior. Local people knew him and called him a Peeping Tom because of the obvious. He was caught looking in through windows around the neighborhood. His ex-girlfriend gave a statement saying she knew of his weird habits and that he was

interested in perverse sexual activities. This was important as a sex toy was found at the scene. She also noted his very nervous demeanor following the murders, making her worry about his potential involvement. She said that Robert allegedly spent the night of the crime with friends, but was in a hurry to leave town soon afterward and fled to Mississippi. With suspicions mounting, detectives worked with the authorities in Mississippi, coordinating a stakeout to

intercept the robber as he returned to his trailer. Robert was cooperative and signed a consent form for searches including hair and blood samples. In his interview, he claimed he'd spent the night of the murders with two friends at local bars and had no connection to the crime scene. And you know what? For once, he was telling the truth. When his samples were tested, the forensic results failed to link him to the crime. In addition to this guy, the investigators had built case files on other individuals in the neighborhood, including known offenders

and 19 additional possible suspects who were questioned and asked to give fingerprints and hair samples. But none of these leads matched the forensic evidence from the scene, leaving detectives and the family without answers for years. Finally, the killer did come forward, but not in the way Jan would expect.

She had no idea that just a few years later, this mystery would be solved. This nut would be cracked. This is Joseph talking about the sunny shot and almost giving away a secret. Listen carefully. So he's gonna break in there and try to stab me. He said, hold knives on me before I'm scared of him, man. He can be violent and you know, the last 30 years I haven't been violent. I am unviolent, you know.

All I want to do is live in peace in my house. Let's hear that part one more time. The last 30 years I haven't been violent. I am unviolent, you know? All I want to do is live in peace in my house. Let's hear that part one more time. The last 30 years I've been violent. I am unviolent, you know? It was almost 30 years since the murders. 26 years had gone by between 1990 and 2016. The physical evidence collected and meticulously preserved was packed away,

just waiting for advancements in forensic science to shed new light. When Joseph Zeiler was taken into custody for shooting his son, a now routine DNA cheek swab, something unheard of in 1990, linked him to the 1990 crime scene, reigniting an investigation that had gone unsolved for decades. I am not here to talk with you at all about that. I would like to talk with you about a couple other cases that your name has come up in that you might have some information and might be able to help us with. But Joseph wasn't prepared to help anyone with anything. Ever since his 1998 accident, he says he basically doesn't remember much, like even the fundamentals.

Okay, where were you born here? I was born in Illinois. Born where? I have a hard time with my memories. He briefly touches on his current relationship with Bonnie, but he somehow forgets that he has an ex-wife. He also forgets where he has an ex-wife. He also forgets where he was born and where he worked. Where did you work at before that?

I don't really remember. I know some I went to work. You don't remember where you worked at? No. No. Okay. Well, the reason that I asked about Lorraine or Lori is because you and she appeared to have a home not far from the hospital here in Cape Coral years back. I remember living in Cape Coral. This is the first time I've been here. You got a couple addresses here in the Cape.

Jan, Lisa, and Robin lived about a block away from Cape Coral Hospital where Jan worked. Well, back in 1990, we had a pretty big case here in Cape Coral where somebody broke into an apartment. And I was hoping that you could maybe talk to me about what you remember about that apartment complex if you saw anybody suspicious, if you were ever around there, you could help me with that. Do you have the picture of the, does that look familiar to you at all? No.

Nothing at all? This is the back side of it. This is the front door. That side. Well, I'm happy. Doesn't look familiar to me. Hmm? Look at it real hard.

You remember this case, right? No. You ever seen anything on the news about it? I have no idea what you're talking about. You watch TV at home? Not much. Every May they do these big stories about what happened here. No. Not that I can recall. Actually, you live off, if you go down Hancock, they put up a billboard just recently about

this. What happened? Never even noticed that? No, sir. I don't even leave my house. Never? Not once. Stay within a couple block area and just walk my dog.

But your driver's license is good. It looked like you just renewed it a few years ago. I do keep my license. So you can drive. You have the ability to drive a car. I'm not supposed to drive, but they never took the license away from me. Joseph either didn't remember or was lying.

And it's always a careful balance detectives walk when they're interrogating. It's like lighting a fire. You have to start with a simple spark and slowly build it up, feeding it just enough to keep it going without smothering it. You push too hard and the fire dies out. You go too easy and it never catches. They know it's all over as soon as a suspect asks for an attorney.

Detectives have to pay attention to every flicker, turning up the pressure just enough hoping that the truth will finally ignite before the flame is snuffed out. I mean it just looks like you have a lot inside of you. And I can understand right now that you're probably afraid. But eventually everything kind of catches up with you. Things in your past eventually come to light. I always think that being honest about it just kind of relieves everything that people keep inside of them. You know, what happened there is just probably

not something that somebody meant to do. I really don't know what you're talking about, sir. Well, I'm just saying for instance that this would have had to mean something for, you know, 20-something years and just probably something to really want to get off their chest. You've heard enough interrogations to know what's coming next, right? So you believe in God, right? Yes, sir. It's always good to clench your sins before you go to meet God. Well, I think that's the best thing is to confess sins and go see the man with a clear conscience. I pray and do that myself on my own every evening.

Well now's kind of the time to do that. I don't understand what you're saying. I mean you kind of know why you're here right? No I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what you're implying. The detectives found themselves face to face with either someone who didn't have much memory left or else was very consistent with his lie. They weren't getting anywhere. Joseph insisted that he stayed out of trouble for a long time and the only offense he could recall was the one he was just arrested for, shooting his son in alleged self-defense. When they brought up a charge in Illinois for burglary back in the 80s, again, he had no recollection. So they asked, was he good at figuring out locks?

I don't remember ever being a burglar or burglarizing. And that's all old stuff. So I mean, it's not like, you know, and we're not in Illinois, so it's not like I'm gonna charge you with it. I'm just asking asking kind of, you know, how your brain worked and how you picked things. I don't remember being any kind of burglar at all. I have issues with memory. I don't remember. I know that's what you keep saying. And I'm sure that you do have some memory issues.

I think that you're also trying to play that card right now. Okay. The next round of questions involved his personal and sexual life. They wanted to know if he'd ever cheated on Bonnie. Whether he was a one-woman kind of guy. Or what his preferences were. You know, like, uh... Do you like children?

In a sexual way? No, I don't like children. I have a normal relationship with my wife. I'm very happy to stay at home. In 2016, Joseph, Bonnie, their son, and their son's girlfriend were living in Fort Myers, not Cape Coral. Even though Cape Coral was less than 10 miles away, you'd think Joseph lived in a cave

on the other side of the world. According to him, he didn't watch much TV, didn't go very far, and when he did, he was usually on his bike. Sounds like me, doesn't it? Anyway, as for 1990, that was buried in the distant past. A year he seemed to have wiped from memory, like an old hard drive scrubbed clean. To hear Joseph tell it, those years were long gone, erased, leaving no trace for anyone to find. But as he would soon learn, some things don't stay hidden forever and there are some sins you can't just pray away.

Detectives then asked about porn. He freely admitted using it, explaining that Bonnie knew it and didn't mind. It was just part of life, nothing more, he claimed. But then the conversation shifted a bit. Out came the photos of Robin and Lisa, two young faces that had been frozen in time since 1990. You haven't seen them ever? I don't know who they are.

I know you don't know who they are. We're asking you when you saw them. I haven't seen them. Other than now that you're putting them here on the table. Look at them. I am looking at them. Just jog your memory a little bit. But see, that's assuming he had a memory.

And that was the mystery. Because if he's lying, he's damn good at it. I don't know who they are. A little bit. I can tell you're... I can see it in your eyes. Well, you'd be wrong because I don't know who they are. I know I'm not wrong.

I don't recall ever seeing this girl before. You've seen her before? No. Kurt's telling the truth. You've absolutely seen her before. OK. I don't recall seeing her before. Like I said, once you get this off your chest,

you're going to feel like the whole weight of the world is gone from the back of your shoulders. I don't carry any weight. I pray every evening. It had to be frustrating to know that they had DNA fingerprints and hair strands all connecting Joseph to the murders. And yet, could it be possible that he had no memory of it? You heard him say he prayed every evening.

Was it also possible that he remembered the crimes, thought he'd gotten away with it and actually tried to turn over a new leaf? That is until he shot his son. Because her mother thinks about that she's the one that prays every day. She's the one that's going through everything, not you. Okay. Her mother. Every day goes through what happened to her daughter. Alright. So look at her.

I have looked at her. I am looking at her. Then tell us the truth about what happened. I have no idea what you're talking about. I've never seen that girl before in my life. Her name is Robin. She's not just a little girl. Her name is Robin. Okay. Robin was a sweet, wonderful girl.

Alright. Didn't deserve what happened. No one deserves what happened. Correct. I don't even know what happened or saw. I don't know what you're implying. Robin was a sweet girl, according to her mom, Jan. She was a typical 11-year-old. Crossing over wanting to be that tomboy

that could beat boys at everything. She was just starting to think to herself, maybe I shouldn't be so good at this stuff because she could beat boys at running, she could beat them at swimming, she could beat them at swimming, she could beat them at soccer. She was pretty good, well-rounded. She was just starting to ask boy questions.

But every now and then I'd still catch her playing with dolls. I'd say, what are you doing? She'd say nothing. And I'd still catch her dressing and undressing and she still had dolls. So she was and she did very well in school, very easy going, no matter what situation came up, she wasn't one of these kids that balked at it. She just would get in the car and let's go do whatever it is has to be done. But for the most part, Robin was very happy. I have very few memories of her ever throwing a fit or giving me a hard time.

It was she was pretty happy-go-lucky. Liked to prank. She was a big prankster. She was friendly and had lots of friends at school. More than 25 years later, these friends still think of Robin and stay in touch with Jan. This is an 11-year-old little girl. This is Robin. Okay.

Think about what her mother's gone through every single day for the past 25 years. Yeah. That should be breaking her heart right now. Again, I don't believe I've ever seen either one of these girls. I don't really know what you're implying here. I'm not implying anything. I'm telling you. I'm saying that you know Robin. I don't know her. You've seen her. You've met her. You've seen her, you've met her. I don't know these girls.

Do you remember touching her? No, no. Nothing was making this guy crack. And if they could just get him to admit anything, but he wouldn't. If they could just get him to acknowledge that he gave his DNA and they had him as a match, but he couldn't or wouldn't even admit to remembering being swabbed.

Do you remember being swabbed by the detective that you had a long conversation with that you told him what happened between you and your son? I'm not getting into that, but that you talked to him about what happened between you and your son that you talked to him about your accident, the settlement, the house that you bought, all kinds of those details. And you remember him swabbing with a big long Q-tip the inside of your mouth? I don't remember any of that conversation.

I mean, you're saying that I said all that stuff, but I can't remember saying it. I don't remember the full procedure of what they did to me. Okay, well, I guarantee you that that's exactly what happened. Okay. Okay, because that is procedure. All right.

Do you understand how DNA works? No. Do you know what DNA is? No. You have no clue at all? No, ma'am. Okay, so DNA to you could mean really just about anything. Okay, just explain what DNA is.

What is your understanding of DNA? I don't have any understanding of DNA. What is DNA? I don't have any understanding of DNA. What is DNA? I don't know. Whether he remembered anything or not, he knew exactly what was up when they mentioned DNA. So when you were swabbed when they took your DNA, that went to a database. Alright.

And your DNA was found on my crime scene from a previous, you know, back in 1990. So this is the time, Joe, that I need for you to really take a nice deep breath and realize it's time for the lies to stop. It's time for the saying, I don't remember, I don't recall. I'd like to speak to my attorney. For Jan, it was always about the DNA. Even back in this 2013 interview, she hadn't lost hope. She knew that advancements in this research

would eventually bring answers. Like whenever my phone rings and I know it's the police department, or I'll get a text from Christy Alice who's my detective and she'll just say call me I'm like you know I always get that little bit of okay but she says she's not going to do that she says she's coming to my door but you know some of the leads look really good and but it's going to come down to the DNA. And if we have the DNA, we send it in and it comes back and not match, no matter how good it looked.

He's not our person. With that said, no matter how much or how little Joseph Zyler remembered or how many times he insisted on his innocence, DNA doesn't lie. And his DNA was all over the place, including on and in Robin, the probability of it being anyone else was astronomically low. There was no escaping the science. But would Joseph's head trauma and alleged loss of memory be mitigating factors in a trial, or would the jury see him for what he was? A cold, sexual predator, burglar, and killer. Creating really great retail experiences is tough, especially when you're juggling multiple stores, teams of staff, fulfillment centers, and separate workflows. It's a lot. But with Shopify Point of Sale,

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team will love. According to a report from EY, businesses using Shopify POS see real results, like 22% better total cost of ownership and benefits equivalent to an 8.9% uplift in sales on average. Want more? Check out Shopify.com slash sword and scale. That's Shopify.com slash sword and scale, all lowercase, to learn how to create the best retail experiences without complexity. For decades, the brutal murders of 11-year-old Robin Cornell and 32-year-old Lisa Story haunted the quiet community of Cape Coral, Florida.

The two were brutally assaulted and suffocated in their home in 1990, their innocent lives stolen in an act of violence that left officers sobbing as they left the heartbreaking scene. Despite the painstaking investigation, including forensic work and interviews with dozens of potential suspects, the case went cold until 2016. It was then, during an unrelated domestic dispute, that Joseph Zeiler's DNA was collected and linked to the 1990 crime scene. Joseph, who had lived quietly for years, denying any connection to the murders, was suddenly at the center of a case that had remained unsolved for more than 25 years.

It was his third interview. He was already in jail for shooting his son with a pellet gun in an argument. According to Joseph, his son was a drunken bully who had been belligerent and Joseph had enough. Now he was faced with the reality that the police had DNA on him from this incident and were arresting him for the 1990 murders of Robin and Lisa. Joseph claimed to have no memory of anything occurring before a 1998 head injury, but detectives didn't believe him.

Still, he confessed to nothing. In his final interview with detectives, Joseph seemed almost resigned. He spoke in calm tones, reflecting on life and morality as if he were an outsider to his own story. Not once during the three interviews did he get mad, yell, or have an outburst? I didn't take you up on that,

so it'll probably be the last one I ever get. What do you like? Husty guy, husty. Um, husty. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. For someone who would be standing trial for two of the most brutal murders Florida has ever seen, Joseph seemed like he was anything but a monster.

He began reflecting on how blessed he'd been to have a home and how he was worried about Bonnie now living there alone with their alcoholic son. He maintained that he knew he would need to let her go. It was almost as if he was facing the gallows in these moments and knew he'd come to Jesus soon because he's repented. She's a very beautiful and kind woman, so she deserves a better life than I gave her. On that place of yours. I mean, that's not the prettiest, but...

It's home. Yeah, I enjoyed it while I could. I was blessed. It really seemed like this was a confessional. Joseph went on to plead not guilty in the trial, but for now, saying, I enjoyed it while I could, I was blessed, sure felt like he knew he was never going to go home again. And then the conversation took a bizarre turn into moral speculation. I don't think people inherently start out bad. I think, you know, it's just a product of years of environment.

A product of their environment. Absolutely, I totally agree with you. I mean, I don't, you know, I think, you know, you go into a hospital, steal them babies, and now they're bad, unfortunately. Same with other things, you know? Yeah. I just don't think that anybody means to start out inherently bad. No, I totally agree with you. Totally agree with you.

And I've been doing these investigations for a long time. And I've talked to a lot of people who actually have done very bad stuff. And I've been talking to them. They're just not the evil monster that people may think they are. They just, they are something that may, they may be someone who did something bad, but I, you know, I mean, you're having this conversation.

They're not a bad person sitting in front of me. For the record, he was using a hypothetical situation about another person. He said they are not a bad person sitting in front of me because Joseph was a different story. There's no way the detective is sitting there thinking that the man across from him was anything other than evil, knowing what he did to Lisa's story and Robin Cornell. No, I agree. I agree. I think, you know, everybody has a story to tell and, you know, everybody has a story to tell. And, you know, they got a history and there's reasons for everything.

Well, there's... You can't blame other people for your... Well... For your reasons, and I would never begin to try to make any kind of excuses for, you know, anything like that. It's not just that people just don't start out inherently bad. It's just the way it is. Nobody's born with the best one in their mouth. Did Joseph really believe in accountability, or was he just setting the stage for sympathy at his trial? During the trial in May of 2023, testimony from a psychiatrist painted a different picture. Zeiler's strict authoritarian father, combined with a head injury that caused memory loss

and depression, created a volatile mix of repression and anger. To the expert, this wasn't about being born evil, but about how a lifetime of unchecked damage can warp a person's mind. This is a complicated person to grow up with when you're supposed to be learning about, you know, rules of society and being frightened to break rules in the home because of the risk to yourself. So I think that makes him very confused regarding his father. But for the families of Lisa's story and Robin Cornell, no amount of psychological insight could undo the harm Joseph had caused.

Lisa, who had just moved into Jan Cornell's apartment, was remembered by her boyfriend as a kind, thoughtful person with a bright future ahead of her. One of the few gifts she left behind was a watch she was going to give him for his birthday. It was engraved with love from Lisa and was never recovered. It was stolen from the crime scene by this killer who also caused unspeakable harm to an 11-year-old girl in her final moments. This was Lisa's boyfriend at the time, remembering what happened in 1990.

She was a very outgoing person, a vivacious personality, very caring, compassionate, a lot of fun to be around. She was just a good old all-American girl, hard worker. Very caring, compassionate, a lot of fun to be around. She was just a good old all-American girl, hard worker. We had planned on getting married around her birthday in the middle of September. Did you actually set a date? Yes, September the 15th. When's your birthday?

May the 11th. The day after she was found deceased, right? Yes, sir. I don't know. My heart was broken, you know, and I loved her very much. Still do. Lisa's boyfriend wasn't the only one to take the stand during the trial. Of course, Jan Cornell gave a heart-wrenching testimony.

Most of the time, defense attorneys don't allow their clients to take the stand. But Joseph Zeiler was so adamant that he was innocent that there was no stopping him. But of course, he was not expecting his own incriminating words to, quote, come back and bite him in the ass. Between September 8th and 15th, 2016, Joseph Zeiler made five recorded calls to his girlfriend, Bonnie Nicely, from jail. He focused on directing Bonnie to get him out of jail, telling her to claim he was too incapacitated to flee. Tell the bondsman, you're my caretaker, he said, and get power of attorney so you can

access my safety deposit box." As the calls went on, Zylers calm instructions turned even more specific. If anything comes down that is upsetting you, if anything embarrassing comes down, you need to pack a bag and run," he warned her. The house is going to be converged on. Do you understand what we're talking about? Back in 1990, I did go through this before, and nothing bit me in the ass, so there's

a very good chance it won't. These cryptic references, along with repeatedly saying that he would deal with it if his past caught up with him, gave detectives a window into Joseph's thoughts. On September 22, Joseph called Bonnie in a panic. Cable Coral Cops, you're trying to pin some shit on me. Bonnie, who had no idea he was a killer, was visibly shaken and later agreed to meet with detectives.

The calls revealed what his interviews hadn't. Joseph wasn't just hiding something, he was terrified of what was about to come to light. He started out calmly, thinking he had control of the courtroom and claiming that an unknown blonde hair found at the scene must have belonged to his brother. But when it was pointed out that blood analysis determined he was the killer, his demeanor shifted dramatically. The man who had once calmly told detectives that he didn't believe people were born bad,

now faced the courtroom with defiance and cruelty, and sometimes the middle finger. His testimony was less about defense and more about provoking and blaming. The only way my DNA could have gotten there was me sleeping with Jan Cornell and Leanne Deller. Did you sleep with Jan Cornell and Miss Deller? It's possible because I was here.

Well, now you were here. I mean, I was here in December 89. I testified to that earlier and what I believe happened is I slept with Jan Cornell and Leanne Deller and there were just too much of a pig not to wash your sheets. It was January, February, March, April, May of 1990 and then, well, okay, I don't want to make it a compound question. Your DNA would have still been there five months later Yes, and that's because they're pigs and they don't wash their sheets. Exactly. You know that well, I Assume that just like you're assuming that I did

But just so the records clear when I said they're pigs and they wash their sheets. That's what you said. Absolutely Just so the record's clear when I said they're pigs and they wash their sheets, that's what you said. Absolutely. Whereas the interview room at the police station showed a meek, mild, and well-mannered person with head trauma and memory loss, now his memory was suddenly sharp enough to recall that he had been in the area a few months before the murders and had slept with Jan. For the record, Jan had never slept with Joseph Zeiler in her lifetime. In fact, she'd never even seen him. Well, she's calling me a rapist and a murderer, so what, I can't write that? I mean, she's

calling me a rapist and a murderer, and I'm calling her a pig for not washing her sheets. The prosecutor got rid of any notion that this vile man, Joseph, should be taken seriously. None of his testimony is backed up by any evidence. All the evidence actually points the other direction towards his guilt. Robin and Lisa's family still wonder, even today, about the true motive of the assault and murder. They wonder if he was stalking them, if they had unknowingly met him and caused him to want revenge, or maybe this was just a simple burglary that had gone wrong. Maybe it was all three. What was his motive? If I had to explain why a child molester, molest children, because they're sick.

I couldn't answer that. But the beautiful part is I don't have to answer that. I don't have to tell you why he did it. On May of 1990, he murdered them in Cape Coral. What was his motive? I don't care. Thank you. his motive? I don't care. Thank you.

On June 26, 2023, Joseph Zeiler was sentenced to death for the 1990 murders of 11 year old Robin Cornell and 32 year old Lisa Story in Cape Coral, Florida. The sentencing followed a jury's recommendation for the death penalty with 10 out of 12 juries in favor. During the sentencing hearing, the once calm man who prayed every evening decided to elbow his attorney in the face, further proving that maybe he was inherently evil after all. Some people never get the opportunity

to enjoy the things I've enjoyed, so I appreciate Shelby and so kindly. I understand the situation. No one starts out life in a bad way. No. This may be true, but they most definitely can end up in a bad way. During that same interview, he said one more thing that was both prophetic and chilling. The eyes of the Lord in the adoption. Just a man trying to make his way to this world.

I find that a people's blue eyes have that effect. As a matter of fact, little Robin's eyes were blue. Joseph Zeiler's were not. Joseph Zeiler denied being born evil. He sat across from detectives and calmly insisted that he believed no one is inherently bad, but his actions could not have been more demonic. The violence he inflicted, the lives he stole, and the families he shattered painted a picture that even he will never forget, whether he admits it or not.

We hope you liked that one. We think it's gonna be one of the ones you remember for a long time. There's a few episodes of Sword and Scale that just can't get out of your head, you know? I think that was one of them. So, you're welcome! head, you know? I think that was one of them. So, you're welcome! By the way, if you really like the show and you want to help us out, if you want to support the arts, head on over to swordandscale.com, download our apps available on Android or Apple devices, and subscribe to Plus. That's how you can make sure that we're gonna still be here next week. Hint, motherfucking hint. We also have a store if you want to support us that way. We've got shirts and hats and all kinds of shit. Go look at it. Store.SwordandScale.com

This story was written and researched by our producer, Valerie Vernon. That's it. I got nothing else. I'm just gonna sit here till the music stops because it's a rule FCC 318 so oh look it's time okay bye Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!

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Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! I'm out. Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!

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Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey! I'm out.