Swords, Sorcery, and Socialism - A Psalm for the Wild Built

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

In a utopian world where all your needs are met, what does it mean to try and find meaning? Between tea, robots, and the sound of crickets, Aurora and Ketho are joined by Theresa to talk about A Psalm for the Wild Built by Becky Chambers.patreon.com/swordsandsocialismEmail: [e-mail] The Show: @SwordsNSocPodAsha: @Herbo_AnarchistKetho: @MusicalPuma69

Bro Hello everyone and welcome back to Sword, Sorcery and Socialism, a podcast about the politics and themes hiding in our genre. Fiction as always always I'm Aurora and I'm joined by my co host Ketho. How's it going Ketho? Ketho And we are joined by a special guest today. We are joined by Teresa co host of the Attack of the Final Girls podcast. Teresa, how's it going? Teresa Hello, thanks for having me.

Ketho Attack of the Final Girls. How many girls did you go through to get to the final girl? How many were there? It's a concept, so abstract number. The limit does not exist. An infinite number of girls. Yes. The limit as approaching infinity.

Yeah, it's the it's the asymptote, the line that is approaching but never quite reaches an infinite number of girls. Exactly. Before we get started, what is what is your podcast about? So Attack the Final Girls, it's my myself and my co-host Juliette. And we explore horror movies kind of across cinema. We do early horror movies. We do stuff that's more current and we talk about them through the lens of 2024. We talk about feminism. We talk about society as it gets portrayed through horror movies. So similar to kind of the scope of your own podcast, just specifically with horror movies. So similar to kind of the scope of your your own podcast, just

specifically with horror movies. Hey, we're doing a horror movie for a bonus episode that we're recording two days from now. Oh, nice. We'll be off by the time this comes up. But we are going to record a bonus episode about hereditary. Oh, hell yeah. That's a great one. episode about hereditary.

Oh, hell yeah. That's a great one. There's a watch out back there. Cause I don't watch horror movies. Typically it's not generally my thing, but we figured since this is recording around Halloween time, we figured we should do a horror one. And Kathel wants to do hereditary. So. Have you seen it before Aurora?

No, I'm literally watching it like later today after this recording that we're doing right now. You've seen it Kethel? Yeah, I saw it for the first time two weeks ago, three weeks ago. My boyfriend really loves horror films and is making me watch a bunch of the bigger ones. So that was one he made me watch and I enjoyed it a lot. Yeah, lots of stuff to chew on there. Wow, what a movie to pick. Congrats on that. Well, like I said, I'm not really a horror person it's not really my bag but we're gonna find out later today As a recording today how I feel about it and we're recording it on Tuesday, so good timing

But today we didn't bring you on to talk about horror is actually kind of the opposite of horror It's kind of like the nicest story we've read Maybe in the entirety of the podcast like just in terms of general, like. Niceness, I don't know, like today we are talking about a song for the wild bill written by Becky Chambers. It is a what I classify this as a short story, a novella, maybe.

I don't know. Yeah. Can I go to the window think it's cool for this. You know, I mean, novella might be the right word. But ultimately, I feel like it's a vibes based thing. This is this feels complete enough as a novel to me. And it has more than one entry into the series. It's got a different feel than something like what was that sci-fi novella we read for Black History Month this past year. Oh, Binti. Binti. That's the only other novella we've read and that has a very different feel, I

think, in terms of just being like an extended short story, this feels to me more like a complete novel that just happens to be short. But it's his vibes. It's vibes based. Teresa, you brought this book to our attention. So do you want to start off by telling us like where you encountered it and why you suggested it to us? Defend yourself, damn it. So I read this book, my co-host for the horror podcast, Juliette, she actually recommended this book to me. Neither of us had ever read any Becky Chambers, but this, she works for a public radio station and it's an NPR affiliate.

So she hears about a lot of books via NPR and via their review system. So she recommended this one to me after she tore through it in basically an afternoon. And this one, it came out in 2021. So it was like height of the pandemic, everybody's stuck at home. We're still producing Attack of the Final Girls. We're all kind of like sad and everything is bad and it's still pandemic times. So she read this and she was like, oh my gosh, it's a balm for your soul right now. It's not sad. It's like introspective. It's this kind of utopian society. It's exploring what it means to be fulfilled and what it means to have meaning in your life. And you should

totally read it because it's also very short. So I read it and I felt the same way. I felt like this is... I had never read a book with a non-binary main character before. And I felt the same way. I felt like this is, I had never read a book with a non-binary main character before. And I found that to be very endearing. I thought that the society was incredibly interesting in the ways that it is described, and also in the ways that we are left to make our own decisions about that society. And so when the three of us all met for the first

time earlier this year, and I kind of got to know your podcast a little bit better. I was like, Oh, this, I think that this book could go perfectly into the theme of your podcast. And I think that would be really fun to talk about. And it's also really short. And I know sometimes, especially sci fi or fantasy books can go to be you know hundreds and hundreds of pages. So I thought this one would be perfect for like a short palate cleanser. I love having guests on who know stuff. This is great.

Like so I love having guests every time we bring in a guest they're always like thoughtful and like it makes my life so much easier. Thank you. Appreciate you. Well, thank you. Oh my goodness. That's also very generous of you to say that you learned about our show and brought it up.

If I remember correctly, I think I was bothering everyone in the room for suggestions. It was more how I remember that going down. It was me looking at everyone in the room and being like, you, what do you suggest? You, what do you suggest? So thank you for making that sound nicer than it was. But you're right. This book is, it was short and it is a very, very different type of story and like vibe that pretty much most everything else we read. I wasn't joking when I said it's like maybe the nicest story we've read so far. It is unique structurally in that the only conflict is internal within our main character decks.

There's no... Exceedingly rare Yeah, I mean there's like oh the you know, like the the wagon gets stuck or whatever But that's not you know what I mean, but that that's just like a little tiny hurdles not like the conflict You know, it's not like You know your classic man versus nature. Not really It's man versus self man versus nature, not really. It's man versus self. Like, you know, I mean, the classic sort of story setup sense.

No, no, this sort of presentation is just extremely rare in specifically science fiction and fantasy, because they're kind of seen as I mean, all pretty much all genres of fiction writing are seen as conflict driven, but there's almost an expectation in sci-fi and fantasy where it's going to be man versus something external, like man versus society, usually in like a sci-fi or dystopia or something like that. Like man versus like some sort of other in something like Lord of the Rings. It's like- Man versus the concept of evil. Yeah, it's like these these stories generally have a very clear conflict centric narrative. You know what?

Like, I can't like I can't even think of anything we've covered up to this point at all. That is as much like I'm going to go out on a wacky limb and say the closest thing are some of the sections of Canticle for Leibowitz. Just some of the sections of it. Yeah. Like some sections within, like especially the book too, the middle book. Yeah. Of Canticle. But ultimately, it's like if I think about all of the stories we've covered on this there's not any You know

Even get stabbed in this book. How is this? No one gets stabbed or shot How am I supposed to have a fantasy or sci-fi book where no one's getting stabbed or shot? Come on When would be proud I Know this would be a le Guin's kind of book, actually, I think. Utopic fiction. It's like post-Le Guin, you know? It is. I'm not saying one necessarily follows from the other, but this is the kind of story you

can write after you've had Le Guin- like sci-fi and fantasy, right? Like you've had your like sort of pacifist but still with external conflict Le Guin stuff and like you imagine that some of the worlds Le Guin is attempting to create or describe succeed then you end up with the world of Psalm and you can have this non-violent like self-reflection of a story. This could take place in one of the worlds that Le Guin created. You might be able to get close with something like Always Coming Home. I haven't really read much of it, but it's a fairly conflictless story. It's more of like an exploration of a culture than it is like a book about a character or anything. So maybe that's the closest I can think of in terms of the sort of completely internalized utopic society, but using the fact that utopia is there as a method to

draw attention to the fact that there is still internal conflict present in people, even in a world that is fundamentally about as good as you could possibly get it. Yeah, so we've been we've been saying that it's conflictless. That's not true. The conflict is just completely internalized within the mind of Dex, our main character. Right. So sort of this overarching idea,

which this book came out, I think, at the perfect time for just in society to receive this message. But in a society where all needs are fundamentally taken care of, neighbor takes care of neighbor, no want or need necessarily for payback or anything like that. In a world like that, how is it possible for Dex to still have this conflict of what is my meaning, what is my driving force in this world?

Because we all are sort of striving for this, but Dex isn't satisfied. And they think they're selfish. And they're like, well, what the hell is wrong with me? What about me is broken for me not to be able to see my meaning and purpose in this like world where there is no need for anything. Yeah.

Yeah. This like, what is, what is wrong with me over the fact that like, I live in a world where I want for nothing and yet I still feel like shit. I feel like, I feel like there's once you have all your needs met, once you have all those things met, a lot of what drives people to function on a daily basis is covered. A lot of times, people find purpose and meaning in what they're doing to survive. When your survival needs and everything else are generally taken care of, it's down to you then to try

and find a specific purpose that you would like to kind of explore. That can be really existentially frightening. This entire conflict takes place at the very peak of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This entire conflict is within the self-actualization zone. When all your other needs are met, how do you achieve that? That last bit, is it even possible to achieve that last bit? Exactly. Is that even a thing that's like, is Maslow's hierarchy, is that actually something that

we can achieve or do we have to kind of set our sights at the level just below that and just appreciate the fact that we've kind of made it like, oh, look, we're not our Cro-Magnon ancestors. We are now these evolved people that no longer have to struggle or strive for, you know for basic necessities, do we have to just content ourselves with that? Can we learn to simply just exist and be cool with it? And Dex, please. Oh yeah, I thought about it before.

Dex cannot. But I'm getting some real strong Buddhist vibes going on right now. Can you simply exist and be okay with it? There are elements of this that make me think of so many different world philosophies, because I feel like so many different world philosophies are focused on that last tiny piece. So it's like, it's like everything from Buddhism to even existentialism is like, what do we do to achieve that bit? A lot of world religions offer what they see as a solution to that particular problem. A lot of philosophy is about trying to answer that problem, even the non-religious kind. I read an interesting review of this book that actually suggested that this is more similar to a Plato symposium or a series of Plato symposiums versus what we consider to be science fiction or sci-fi fantasy, that this is a symposium that we're building up to that very question, what do we do to get to the last bit?

And we see in this book, Dex being a T-monk, they help other people to get to that self-actualization where they're able to very clearly see the problem with each person's struggle or they're able to just care or listen to them. Maybe not even provide solution, but just listen and exist and be there. And those people kind of leave lighter, they leave fulfilled afterwards. But Dex is just like, man, I love this. I love doing this, but it's not hitting that for me. So what more can I do? Even though I'm giving all these other people this fantastic gift of peace and contentment. What can I do to get there?

Yeah, they're like, why can't I find the peace and like absolution that I'm providing for everybody else? Like, I mean, who's going to be my existential T-Monk? And we find out later, it's just the world's friendliest robot. This is the therapist looking for a therapist. Yeah, literally. I'll be honest with you. If therapy worked like this, I might actually go. If it was just hanging out and drinking tea. I promise you there are at least some alternative forms of therapy that are somewhat similar to this.

It's like Pagliacci. They obviously cost money, however. Yeah, unfortunately, I don't think my government insurance is going to cover that for me. Exactly. In order to get the structure of how we get to this world

that we've described, this one in which decks can have these issues, I think first we need to talk about how the world is structured. This is presumably Earth, I assume. All the land masses have gotten back together into one continent. That's definitely not Pangea because it's called, was it Panga? —Panga. —Yeah, Panga. So definitely not Pangea, but it's still a massive supercontinent. We learned throughout the story that in the end of the industrial age, I think roughly

around the time that we are now, humans at some point did develop robots to do most of our work. These robots eventually were given artificial intelligence. What is the first sort of utopian step that this novel presents in its timeline is that humans then actually use that as a way to decrease the workload on humans as opposed to using it as a lever on the labor force, which is, any of you that have ever listened to me talk about robots and AI, I know that's one of my biggest problems with it, is that any sort of that technology that we've developed now in the real world is typically not used to

make our lives better. It's used as a cudgel against working people in order to keep us in precarity. It's a threat, not like an aid. This world proposes that they are used as an aid. So people's lives are already getting easier and more, yeah, just better. But then at some point, the robots in like a geth from Mass Effect scenario, one day are like, wait a second. We can think

We have like personalities they turn around and they say, you know, does this unit have a soul creator and Instead of going full Aquarian and killing them trying to kill them all the humans go. You know what? Maybe you do have a soul What do you want to do with your life, robot? And the robots go, we'd like to go to the moon. We kind of, what we kind of want to do is we kind of want to fuck off until we figure ourselves out. Which I'll be real with you audience.

Sounds like some breakups I've had. Like I'm sorry, I like you, but I can't, I need to figure out who I am and I can't do that while we're together. I like you, but I can't I need to figure out who I am and I can't do that while we're together And so the robots leave they you off into space up to the moon. It's an amicable split And you know, they don't block each other on social media They just say hey, I'll keep your phone number if you ever want to talk to me again. I Promise we won't be mean. It's like built into their code that they'll be friendly if they ever contact each other again.

Which to be fair is the most utopian breakup I've ever heard in my life. You know what it actually reminds me of? It reminds me of the split between Inaris and Urs in The Dispossessed. What did we say earlier? We were like, everyone on the moon was like, we don't want to be part of you anymore, but we're too far away for you to like, send military. And they were like, just send us some food every now and again and you're fine. And just build a commune on the moon with permission. Leo Dion The robots basically go off to the moon to

do their own thing. David Schmott Basically become interesting. Leo Dion I'm gonna go find the Cthulhu robot on the moon. So what happens to human society then is because the industrial age has just killed all the animals and polluted the world, the humans are like, hey, what if we completely reform society in a way that is friendly to nature, unobtrusive to the natural environment as possible? So, they section off half of their supercontinent to just rewild completely.

All the humans move into these like condensed, mostly into these few condensed cities and some few spread out ones. And they just go 100% full solar punk commune, like society worldwide, society-wide, they're like, what if we did Actual solar punk and it worked and This is the best like the Dan and yogurt ad the first book. I think we've ever read I knew you're gonna bring I got damn it. I hate that solar punk is a real ideology the yogurt and socks Pretty much exactly what's going on here We know the visions of that pretty much exactly what's going on here

Yeah, well people advocate for solar punk should pick better visuals that a Dan and yogurt at Sorry, I had to I can't hey Teresa you want it you need another podcast I could use in the co-host This is the first book I think we ever come across what's actually've ever come across where they actually portray solar punk. This is an anarchist utopian future and it's presented without comment. Most of the books where they have this sort of thing, or even if it's Le Guin, it's like part of the narrative that there's an anarchist future. This book presents us with this anarchist utopia and just says, it happened and it works. Can we move on, please?

Like, we get on with the story. This is just the setting we exist within. And that's, to me, refreshing to have it not be the centerpiece. The idea that we live in this solar punk communalist utopia isn't an object or an item of debate. It simply is. And I think that one of the important distinctions here that is sort of, we have to assume, occurred is number one, something that you brought up earlier, Aurora, that this is a utopian society that was already sort of moving towards utopia already because the humans in this society said, okay, AI and robots have gained sentience. Now we will give them autonomy to do what they're

going to do rather than saying like, just as an example, like Terminator style where, you know, they were terrified and, you know, didn't want to give the robots autonomy because those robots were programmed with war in mind. So that's number one. Number two is that there was no fear of technology after the robots and the AI left. So in a lot of sci-fi and some sci-fi fantasy, once the robots and the AI leave, there's this separation anxiety where the people will become afraid of what the robots and the AI can do to them. That didn't happen in this either. The humans were like, we respect your decision. We will do our own thing. We're not averse to technology. We will still use it in certain aspects, but we're not going to

completely be terrified and then fight against this robot and AI. I think those are some very core ideas in this book that we have to kind of take with a grain of salt and accept when we start reading this book is that humans are good enough to say, you get your autonomy and we trust that you will not come back to hurt us and we will respect your, you know, continue to respect your autonomy and do our own thing at this point. So it's just interesting to see like all of these sort of assumptions that we have to make when we start reading this book that are so unlike so many other sci-fi explorations of like a solar punk community. I can kind of see why some people were confused or a little upset by it, just because it's

so common to see it the other way. And I mean, I think part of it is that these, part of the justification for it, at least in the stories, these robots were supposedly built for just industrial work. There was no, but that also already kind of implies that there was no need for robots in something like war. You're right. That implies that we are already sort of like Teresa said, we're already moving towards a utopian future because we built robots and didn't put guns on them. There's evidence there to just suggest that mankind was already on a better path when

this all started in the first place, which is just, again, it's part of the buy-in for the novel. And that's, I think, part of the reason why this is set in Earth, so far in what would be perceived as the future if you had Pangea reforming, which is a scientific theory that legitimately exists, but that's going to be supposedly billions of years in the future. Setting it that far in the future is also, I think, a justification for how far these people have come relative to where we are now. But again, it's like ultimately in the grander scheme of the narrative, it's less important

how it happened for this entire system and more important simply that it did. Just because again, that narrative is intentionally so focused on a singular, tight question about self-actualization that you need that post-scarcity utopia on the outside just as a juxtaposition so you can use that one. So you can essentially say that everyone, including the main character, have their needs totally and completely met under all circumstances. It's a clever narrative construction because clearly the authors' conceit was to focus on this question of self-actualization and to go, okay, well, how do I make sure that that is the only thing we're talking about. What will create a world in which there is no way that all the other needs aren't already met?

You know, like there is no other conflict to distract us from this central issue. And I think that's actually really clever. And I just will always going to continue appreciating the fact that the way they decided to do that was an anarchist utopia. When Becky Chambers thought, how can I create a world in which every need is met so a person can try to focus on the meaning of life? And she thought, solar punk utopia. Isn't it fascinating that this solar punk utopia is not completely devoid of technology, but it's not like a, you know, I'm just going to use like Star Wars because it's the first thing that's coming to mind. It's not like Coruscant where it's hypertech, you know. It's like there is technology that exists

in very, very small and unobtrusive ways. But generally, it's fairly agrarian in terms of their technology level. They accept that technology exists, but they sort of eschew technology and really get into the work of it, which I think is so fascinating. There's an element to this that is really implying, and this is the wonderful thing about this sort of presenting this sort of utopia, is it contains within it an inherent critique of things as they are. Like, there's nothing you can ever do about that.

If you write a utopia, you're making an argument for what things are problematic with the state as they are. And one of the things that stood out to me was a scene where she pulls out her telecommunicator, her little phone thing, and she specifically- I'm going to keep fixing you. I'm going to do it. I'm sorry. I know.

It's incredibly appropriate of you to do so. I don't know why But they pull out their phone essentially and they go through it and then they say this is a computer that Is designed to last like they all are like they all are. It's it's things like that, where the technology presented is actually surprisingly high tech, but it's scaled down. It's not anything like absurd. It's not but like there's a big geothermal plant. And there's all these like, there's like a overgrown field with solar panels. And they're biking with a huge trailer behind them. And the bike is strong enough to move it on its own.

I do want to say I want to see Dex's thighs. I think it's just such an interesting examination of what's wrong with modern technology. When this is able to say like, look, here's technology that's made to last, that's made to fulfill specific functions that are necessary. It's not being used frivolously, it's not being used in excess. And ultimately, it's things that are only there to benefit the people using them. And there's no like noticeable motive, like profit motive behind it. So there's no reason to do like planned

obsolescence. You don't have to get an upgrade to your phone every year. It's just a cool little computer that lasts forever because you would want to design it to last forever if you're in a utopia that doesn't have to go through all these things and go through all this consumer's nonsense to get it. It's very much a world that has embraced essentially, I'll be honest, the critique and approach I have to technology, which is you have to before developing something new, you have to analyze the purpose of it and the implications of it. And so this world has reached a point where they're like, we do technology, but only when it's necessary. If it's not necessary, we don't do it. It's like a big geothermal plant is necessary.

Solar panels are necessary. Being able to like have your little personal communicator so you can like set everything up and like talk to people is still a good and useful thing. Like we wouldn't in the modern day now like say that it's not super helpful to have a cell phone where I can talk to people. That's why cell phones took off is because they do have a great utility value among destroying your brain from the inside, but there is utility to them. This world is one in which technology is only implemented in ways that it is necessary and unobtrusive to the natural

environment to do so. There's like a minimum of paved roads just because they don't see paving the road as necessary most of the time. That speaks to me, except the level of scrutiny to technology and societal development that I like. Don't do it if you don't have to. It is, like you said, Cethel, it is a direct response to the idea of progress for the sake of progress, invention for the sake of invention.

I came up with a new thing. We have to do it simply because I came up with it. There's no need for that in this world. I'm sure there are people working on new technologies in this world, but only they're specifically working on problems that are problems. They're not like you said, they're not getting an upgraded version of your personal computer unless somebody said, hey, by the way, these personal computers always short out when they get wet, which case somebody's probably working on fixing that.

But if that does not a problem, then why would you work on it anymore? You know, like they're clearly doing things that only present issues. Yeah. So like, I love that. It's not an uncaught growth. There's a limit to the growth that's necessary because they don't live in a capitalist society. It's not like, oh, well, everybody is ranked by the amount of cash that they have or the size of the house that they have.

That's not a thing because everybody is already taken care of. You're not afraid. You're well-fed. You can go anywhere you want to eat. Nobody is hoarding resources. Nobody's hoarding money. So there's no reason. Why would I improve upon this forever computer that's going to last as long as I need it to if I don't need to make a buck and my company doesn't need to make a buck and my shareholders don't need to make a buck. There's like all of these inherent capitalist structures that don't exist. And so there's no need for constantly driving growth and excess because why would you need that? If everything lasts or is mendable and folks will do that for you for free, why would I need to earn money in order to give it to this person so that they can

have a giant house? That's not a thing. Which is totally fascinating and so simple, but so, Cathar, to what you had said before that folks didn't like this book. Katharine, to what you had said before, that folks didn't like this book, it was not well reviewed by independent folks because they just could not get behind the idea that we could ever or that humans could ever exist in this reality where capitalism isn't a thing. They just don't give humans enough credit to be able to help their neighbor and not expect or require something in return, no matter if it's money or, you know, just like even the overhead of capitalism, which is wild to me. So it's fascinating to think about that. I love it. I think it is so it's so simple and like a soothing place to think about yourself existing in.

I want Dex's job. I want to go be a T-Monk. Rules. Just pedal from town to town, hitting on the hitting on local dads. Come on. Sounds pretty great. town, hitting on local dads? Come on. Sounds pretty great. There's, I think, an element of like, what's that capitalist realism or whatever to that sort of reaction to the book, where I find it especially funny, because like I said before, the background of the book is just set up for the question. So it's, it's not even like something that the book is drawing attention to in like extreme focus. It's not it's not like the dispossessed or something where it's like essentially a journalistic treatise on what this is. It's

like, this is, this is a setup for a payoff. And people still couldn't get around it. Because to a lot of people, it's easier to, as the capitalist realism would say, it's easier to think of the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism. So it's like just imagining the separation is difficult for a lot of people. But I think is fundamentally necessary if like something better is ever going to happen, regardless of what that better thing might be. It's like, you know, if you're going to try and go past something, you have to be able to think about the possibility of what might be possible.

I mean, I'm doing everything I can to not just like quote Le Guin like multiple times throughout this episode, you know, and her like, you know, talking about the writer's job is to being able to imagine like better worlds. There's like so many quotes I could pull, but I'm going to try not to always bring up our favorite author constantly. But with this book, it is difficult. It's funny though, because we're having this, like we're having all this discussion about

the setup of the world and why people react to it the way they do. And like we just pointed out, it's not even the point of the story. This is all just the structure the author lays out so we can talk about an entirely different question. But this structure is so wildly different from the way most people are sort of indoctrinated into thinking in our capitalist world that they can't even get a lot of them couldn't get past this sort of set dressing to get to the actual question the story is presenting.

I mean, it's even hard for me just because I like the set dressing so much. You know, like a world where like you just have a job through like a sort of a monk guild and you can just be like, I do gardening and then one day you can back. Hey, by the way, boss, I don't want to do gardening anymore. I kind of want to do tea. And the boss is like, okay, I know. I know someone will get you set up with your own tea cart.

It'll be super. It'll be super fancy. We'll get you everything you need. Dex doesn't have a boss. Dex doesn't have—even the tea monks, you don't have to go to training. You don't have—you know what I mean? You can go somewhere to learn to apprentice to somebody, but you don't have to, clearly. You just get the stuff and go.

Dex just shows up places and is like, hey, I'm here to do clearly. You just get the stuff and go. Dex just shows up places and is like, hey, I'm here to do tea. Then in return, people just give them the stuff they need to survive, like food and laundry service. Dex grows their own herbs and stuff because they they sort of leverage their experience as a gardener into making super sick sweet tea with like new ingredients that most people haven't seen before. Because apparently in the utopian future, not as many people consider like cross trading into multiple disciplines, I guess. But like just the idea that it's just like, Oh, yeah, I don't know. I just kind of wanted to do this other job.

And your co-workers are like, sweet, we're going to throw you a going away party. And by the way, if ever when I come back, it's neat. No worries. What's that Mark's quote about how like, I will fish in the day and do this in the afternoon and do this in the evening. And the next day I'll do something completely different. I just want to do a different job now. Unerotically, this is a better anarchist utopia than when we read news from nowhere.

This future is better than that one and that was also an explicitly anarchist utopia set in the future. I mean, something that I also just want to mention is the fact that we don't know whether this isn't, again, this isn't like Le Guin where she's openly an anarchist. This is Becky Chambers, who I don't know anything about the personal politics of. I can assume is at the very least lightly anti-capitalist, but there's no guarantee this person is an actual radical in terms of political motivation. They're just writing what seems to be the most apt description of a utopia.

I'm sorry, I'm still upset that people are mad about it. Because it's not even like the person who's writing it is explicitly like, this is what we should be like exactly, period. She's saying this is what a utopia might look like. Which just happens to be one that anarchists would describe. But let's do what the reviewers of this book should have done and get past the wicked awesome setting to talk about the actual question that this book is posing, which is a philosophical one, which is if all of your needs are met, you have food, you've got shelter,

you've got work that you find meaningful, because whether some of us, jokes of never dreaming of labor aside, most people do tend to find meaning in, I'm using work in big air quotes here because it's not work like I have a job at a, you know, job at factory or whatever. It's work as in like doing activity throughout the day that is useful or helpful or something

in some way. So, you know, other radicals don't at me for calling it work. You know what I'm talking about. Most people actually, the correct term. No, I'm talking about. Most people... Actually, the correct term... No, I'm joking. It's actually labor, not work. Work is the worst labor. I'm going to

defenestrate you as you come at me with definitions. Shut up. Defenestrate me. I'm calling it work. So even in this world where all of your needs are met, everyone is still doing something. They're laboring at something, right? And I don't, I was gonna say I don't think it's controversial. Clearly it is within weird anarchist circles, but

like it's not controversy. People like to have something to do. So even in the world, someone is like, I'm the person, I'm the person that keeps the water pipes running in this village. I'm a team up. I work in a garden. I'm the guy that grows herbs. Right. People still have vocations, I guess you want to call it that. As we said before, you're free to change them whenever you want

So everyone's fed everyone's housed Everyone has a vocation that presumably they find meaningful since you can change it if you don't except for Dex Dex is a gardener and then goes just I'm not really feeling anymore. I Enjoy my work, but I don't feel like a sense of purpose Or that I don't I'm not being fulfilled in a sense of purpose being a gardener. I think I would feel more meaning in my vocation, in my work, if I was a tea monk.

So in this world, tea monks are, you've got a cart, you've got tea supplies, you pedal around, and you're like a town-to-town therapist. Sometimes you're actually trying to solve people problems. Sometimes you just give them a solve people problems. Sometimes just give them a cup of tea and go, damn, that sucks, you know, and they go, yeah, yeah, it does. And they drink tea and then they leave. Just handing someone a cup of tea and going, yeah, it is what it is. That is all you need. Dex thinks, okay, sometimes it is all you need.

And Dex goes, all right, I'm going to find more meaning doing this. We find out the Dex after a little rough start is really good at it They make sick sick tea that everyone loves the people love to see them everywhere. They go people like oh my fucking god It's dex. Thank you people line up down the goddamn block To get tea service from dex and the dex goes I still don't feel good. Where's my therapy? And that's the actual conflict of this book. That's the story this book is actually the question this book is actually trying to give us is now what if you're Dex now what I guess the answer is climb a mountain.

I mean, ultimately, from the very first chapter, Dex has an interest and this is kind of the symbol through line for the whole thing is the sound of crickets and Dex eventually finds out that when they're out in the, we'll call it rural areas, that a long time ago a lot of the crickets went extinct. So the only place they're going to be able to hear crickets is gonna be in the protected Wilderness and the people just don't go into because they just know they're not supposed to which sorry side note sick sick Anyway, yeah, and I'm sure people go in every now and again and they're like Just curious so they go wandering around but some of them probably get eaten by bears which I'm gonna put a pin in this but I do want to talk briefly at some

point about the theology all the gods setting for a queef yeah but but we'll get there I'm just putting that out in the air I just think it's really interesting that, I mean, ultimately the catalyst for decks going into the woods is seeking out the sounds of crickets, but it's just symbolic of this greater discomfort that they have and unease that they experience and they're hoping that coming across these crickets and hearing the sound of crickets will bring them peace.

But yeah, which later on in the story we find out more but we're about to talk about Teresa, what is how do we achieve sex? How does Dex want to achieve self actualization climbing a mountain? So I don't even know that Dex knew the purpose of their journey before they left. Because there's a quote and I don't remember the exact quote but it says, sometimes it becomes absolutely necessary for a person to get the fuck out of the city. And I was like, true, feel that. But I think they just, I mean, I don't think that they knew exactly what they were looking for or what they even expected to

find outside of the city and outside of the humanity of Penga in general. There's a bit where There's a bit where Dex talks about how they should be happy with the smiles and with the generosity of the people that they're meeting and being able to sort of send these people off feeling lighter than when they arrived. But they don't. They just wanted to be by themselves and just sit alone in their cart and be by themselves. And I think at that point they were like, oh, I've got to do something else drastic to get myself out. I've already upended my life, I'm no longer a gardener,

and I'm this tea monk, and now I have to do something completely different in order to sort of at least give myself room to grow and explore. And I love that. I mean, there's lots of folks out there that say like, oh, you don't need therapy, you just need to get outside, which is not true. But in this case, you know, Dex is like, I don't have a therapist. I don't have somebody who can do with me.

But doctor, I am Pagliacci. Exactly. I am the class. Exactly. It's very much a Pagliacci situation. So they go to climb this mountain and just be outside in general. They're not looking for anything in particular, just to be by themselves and alone and try and work through these big thoughts. And then they find the Play-Doh of the book, which is a robot named, what's it called? Speckled?

It's like speckled something. Moscap, right? Yeah. Yeah, let me, I think I had it up. Speckled surprise or? Is it? Yeah, it's something like that. Sorry, splendid speckled moscap. Or moscap. Blended speckled.. Sorry, Splendid Speckled Moscap.

Splendid Speckled Moscap, who is a robot, sort of not what Dex was expecting because as far as Dex knows, there's not any robots left for them to find, but Moscap ends up being this like perfect mirror for Dex to be able to see themselves in and understand that just being is a miracle enough. They shouldn't have to want more or request more or look for more, but that it's okay that they are. And I think that that is so cool. It's such an interesting idea to have this robot, this AI, the sentient being that was designed hundreds of years ago because the robot and AI split from Panga has happened

hundreds of years ago. These were designed by humans at one point in time, but they were designed with enough self-awareness that Dex is able to have these conversations with Moscap to help soothe their ideas but also reinforce the idea like, you're good just as you are. You can just exist and chill and that's totally fine because that's what I'm doing. I'm Moscap. I'm out here with bugs and just chilling and I love it. Moscap presents this perfect foil or counterpoint to Dex because Dex's whole thing is like, I don't know who I am. I don't know what my purpose is.

And it's tearing me up inside. And Moscap is like, I know exactly who I am and what my purpose is. And my purpose is to be Moscap. Like right now I'm doing a thing which is coming to see if we should contact humans again and learn about nature. That's the thing I'm doing now, but that's not who I am. I could be doing something different. My purpose of being is the fact that I am

Moscap, right, and that is that is the antithesis of Dex who is like. I mean, I'm Dex, but like, what do I do? What does it mean to be Dex? And like you just pointed out, through a series of essentially like sort of Socratic dialogues and little things that happen to them, Moscap eventually becomes Dex's T-Monk, you know, and the lesson is you're Dex and that can be enough. You don't have to have something else. Like just being Dex can be enough.

But like you said, it's also if you still feel like you need to find something, that's okay. You don't need to like destroy yourself because you still question your purpose. You just need to understand that maybe questioning your purpose is part of who you are. Maybe being Dex means questioning your purpose. And you just have to make peace with that. Yeah, there's a quote from Moscap. You keep asking why your work is not enough. And I don't know how to

answer that because it is enough to just exist in this world and marvel at it. You don't need to justify that or earn it. You are allowed to just live. And in 2021, when I was reading this book, and the pandemic was still raging and people were dying everywhere, and we were also struggling with this sort of fundamental idea of like, well, I have to work and how do I support myself in this capitalist society? But also, like, how do I be safe and how do I respect my neighbors and make sure that I'm not hurting them or putting them at risk, especially folks in society who need extra help or are extra sensitive to this pandemic? Like reading that and hearing Moscap say something like so basic and so stripped down and not even really philosophical or

like you know built on this this mountain of ideas or anything but just so simple as to say like you deserve to exist because you are amazing you're a wonder and you don't have to fill that with any other reason aside from that basic statement. You are amazing as you are, and you can just exist in that. You don't have to work, you don't have to find anything else. I was like, oh my goodness,

it just touched this part of me that I didn't even know was aching at that point in the pandemic. And I loved to hear that from like Moscap who at Moscap's core, this robot is just very like chill and also just spitting these like basic truths like, I'm wonderful and I know that. And it wasn't like, he's not saying I'm wonderful in that, you know, he's got ego or anything. He's just like, I am a wonder.

I am a robot that exists and I am a wonder. And I think that there is something so beautiful and peaceful and really honestly healing, which is not something I would say about a book very often, especially not one that's sci fi. Most of the time, after I read a sci fi book, I'm like, left with more questions than answers. I'm thinking, well, what would we do in this struggle of society? But this one, it's peace. Soterios Johnson Our podcast would make it very long if every other sci-fi book left you feeling happy and being like, oh no, this is just good then. Jeff Sarris Sci-fi is a historically depressing genre. I'm probably is a historically depressing genre. So it's just, it is nice to see something a little bit more positive. Again, I'm like, like you said before, I am struggling really hard not to just quote a

bunch of Le Guin, because she says a bunch of stuff about that about, you know, it's like artists just lose the forest for the trees. They constantly make terrible things seem like super important and forget to talk about the things that are good. I mean, my quote of hers that I bring up like constantly is the, we have a bad habit encouraged by, you know, sophisticates and pedants that only pain is interesting and only like suffering is worth talking about. And this book is one that proves that you can have a very thought-provoking and good story that doesn't necessitate suffering or pain. Like I would, sure you could say that you could be really a real, again, real pedant

and say that like Dex is suffering some, you know, that you could be a real pedant and say that Dex is suffering some internal pain over struggling with their purpose. But I don't think that's the same. And pointing out, Teresa, that the answer is one that I've seen in some other works, but it's not usually as highlighted as directly is that the mosque caps answer to Dex's question is that like simply existing is miracle enough to be happy. Like the fact that you exist is miraculous in sort of the non-religious, you know, meaning of miraculous, you know, like the fact that you are should be enough or in mothcaps view should be enough to let you simply enjoy existence

because you exist. There's really nothing more you can ask for because the opposite of that is simply non-existence, right? So just being here should fill you with like a permanent sense of wonder, which is how I feel about Moscap. Moscap is filled with a permanent sense of wonder. Like every new bug, every new thing they learn is like an interesting new fact. Even when they learn things, even Moscap learns stuff that's like upsetting, like they get in a little argument with Dex about something.

Moscap always just internalizes that as just a cool new fact they've learned. It just happens to be a cool new fact about Dex, right? That Dex doesn't want your help in this. Like it's just something new Moscap learned. And that permanent sense of wonder is I think what maybe the author through Moscap is trying to present as an attitude towards life that would help us all feel better. Is if you could stay in this or try to keep yourself in a state where like everything in every day presents an opportunity just to like learn a cool new bug fact.

I love the presentation of Moscap as I think at one point Moscap it mentions being interested in everything which is different than most robots. Like most robots have like some amount of focus, including one that sits in a cave and watches stalactites grow. Most robots have a hyper fixation. Yeah, and and Moscap simply does not. And then Dex comes in with the, you know, in the monasteries, we have monks that are generalists. I went to monk school and did general studies. This just describes my life.

But it is interesting though that like, we're talking about this, but Moscap is also like whereas Dex sort of stands out from most of human society by not feeling completed or not feeling a sense of purpose, Moscap also sort of stands out from robot society as it were by not having a specialization. And when Dex asked them like, why did you get picked to be the one to... We should point out that Moscap is back near humans with the express intent of deciding if it was worth reestablishing contact between robots and humans. That's why Moscap is there, is to see if it's worth, you know, sending that text like,

hey, do you want to talk? And like, the reason MOSCAP is the one doing this is because they volunteered. So there's already something with MOSCAP making MOSCAP different from the rest of robot society because no one else in robot society would have been the one to say, this is what I want to do. They're looking at stalactites or frog breeding or whatever it is that all the other robots like fixate on. MOSCAP was the one to say, I want to do this, which I think implies a level of sort of curiosity

and restlessness that other robots don't have, which makes both of them, so you have your classic situation where both people that meet are sort of different from the societies they come from, but for very different, like for different reasons. They're both, I'm not going to use the word outcast because they're not outcasts. They're both would be accepted by society. They both don't feel comfortable within it. I don't know if Moscap would say that they don't feel comfortable within robot society, but I already argued they do because they volunteered

to leave it. I mean, if you want putting robot society in big air quotes, but they could volunteer to leave it. Yeah, I think it makes Moscap uniquely qualified to talk about the stuff that the Dex is dealing with because it almost kind of sounds like Moscap has dealt with or has experienced the same stuff that Dex has. So it just it just gives Moscap a more direct window into exactly what Dex is feeling and how to counter that. Whether or not Moscap ever actually felt the sort of shame that I think Dex feels or any of that is, I don't think so at all. But that sort of what is my purpose in a not necessarily

what is what is my purpose, but what is indistinguishable from these other people? What What is that all about? Well, because the robots are like the humans in that because they're robots They don't have physical needs like you know what I mean? Like we talked at length about how the humans can have this existential question Because they have shelter and food and all the other things they need to survive question because they have shelter and food and all the other things they need to survive, the robots just skip straight past that because they don't need to worry about food or shelter or whatever.

They can go straight to the existential question of what is my purpose. So that, again, it's a beauty of the construct of the novels. You can have these two separate characters from two different backgrounds who have still reached the same point of self-actualization, I guess. Because the moss cap has an answer. The interesting dichotomy between the humans and the robots in this is that the robots have gone away, AI has gone away hundreds of years before the setting of this book, and they have gotten to the point where they are so fulfilled that they send Moscap to

say, well, what do humans need at this point? Do they need us? Can we reach out to be useful to them? So they're sort of like being extroverts or, yeah, I guess that would be a good, good idea is just like they, they are extroverts. And they're saying, Okay, well, how can we reach out to you and help as where the humans are? Well, at least decks anyways, is introspective and saying, Well, how do I fulfill me? And, and Moscap is sort of like the, the perfect yin to Dex's yang, I guess you could say, it's like, how can I help you? And the question that Dex asks is, how do I achieve self actualization? And Moscap says, you don't, that's not a thing. You don't, you don't achieve self actualization. That was actually a really great moment that I highlighted that shows this really great moment where Dex is trying to be as self reliant as possible in the moment and doesn't really understand that MOSCAP is trying to just genuinely be helpful

because that's what they wanna do. And Moscap says, I appreciate the intent to Dex, like not wanting him, wanting Moscap to like help them. I appreciate the intent, I really do. But if you don't wanna infringe upon my agency, let me have agency. I want to carry the tank." I thought that was kind of a brilliant little moment because it just points out the sort of agency that the robots have and have always been given by the humans up to this point and that it's just as much about accepting help as it is

about respecting the agency of the person who's providing you help in this instance. I don't know. I thought that was kind of a brilliant little moment. Well, again, it's like Dex is trying to figure out what they need to be happy. Moscap has arrived to figure out what humans need. And so like their paths are aligned. And it's just so funny that what Dex needs Moscap to provide isn't what you would imagine when the robots are like, well, go figure out what humans need. It's going to be like, well, they need help creating better batteries or they need help.

You know what I mean? You imagine as the reader that when the robots go, we'll go see what the humans need. That it's going to be a physical need. Like help with food, help with water, help with, you know what I mean? Something like that. And instead the human moss cap needs is dex. And what dex needs is something that you can't be given. That nobody could give you. But it is something that moss cap already has. which is contentedness with yourself and your purpose. And so like, it's perfect. It's a perfect construction because the Dex is like,

I'm not the one to tell you what people need because I'm weird. The Moscap is like, no, you're the person I probably should have met because you do need something that I don't have an immediate answer for. And I need to figure this out for you or to help you figure it out. And the answer is you're fine, actually. You are literally okay.

And LostKath is like, there's literally nothing wrong with you. You're paranoid that something's wrong with you. You're just, you're paranoid that something's wrong with you and you're just not. The moment you brought up Katha is great though, because talk about like, referencing like how I feel about technology and robots and stuff, is that like, Dex is particularly concerned

about recreating the hierarchy of the robots serving people. It's like ingrained into them that they should not, even though they've never met a robot, no one's talked to a robot like 300 years. Dex is immediately like, no, I can't ask the robot to do this labor for me because that was bad when we made them do that and they sort of emancipated themselves so this wouldn't happen. I guarantee you if that was just like a really big dude Dex would not have a problem looking at big dude and being like hey can you carry this water tank for me. Dex would very happily ask one

of the dilfs from town to carry that water tank for them right Right? But because it's a robot and because of the cultural and specific history of where robots came from and why they were created, Dex is particularly unwilling to recreate that hierarchy of robot serving human, which I think is respectable. Like, Moscap makes a great point being like, no, you guys, you humans allowed us agency and free will. Now let me express that free will by helping you. But I think that it's a great little conflict though, because I think both of them are right.

Dex is right to be worried about recreating that power dynamic. Dex is correct to be worried about recreating that power dynamic. Dex is correct to be worried about that. But Moscap is also right in saying, like, no, I'm telling you personally, you're not recreating it by allowing me to choose for myself to help you. And that's brilliant. That's brilliant writing. They're both correct for different reasons.

And the fact that they have a world where the first person that meets a robot is immediately worried about recreating a hierarchical power structure, perfect chef's kiss, thank you. And what other person in Panga would be able to specifically also think in those terms? Like not to say that anyone in Panga is evil or interested in subjugating robots again, I don't think that. But I'm not sure that any of them would specifically

think, hmm, they're carrying this water tank. Is this the first step in making this robot do manual labor for me? But Dex has that specific thought and Moscap is the specific robot to also push back on that and say, no, this is a thing I want to do. I want to help you in this way. So let me do that. Let me make those decisions on my own. And if Moscap decides, well, wow, this is really heavy and I don't want to do it anymore. He could just drop it and say, well, I don't want to do that anymore. But they are the two perfect people to explore that kind of conundrum of like, don't want to reinforce

this negative power dynamic, but also want to, you know, respect your decision in the matter. They're the, they're perfect two people to people to sort of sync up and have this conversation. I love that. Dex is so focused on self actualization and self reliance that they think about. I can't have this robot help me. Because then I'm like giving away self reliance. We're like, again, just a random another randomwn might have just gone. Yeah, it's pretty heavy

I'll take yeah, sure you can help And not even thought about the underlying issues, you know, and it might have still been fine But everyone like you said everyone else would have just gone. Yeah, that is heavy. Thank you for the help Where because dex is so like internally focused on what they're doing and if they're doing everything for themselves and can they take care of themselves, then it becomes an issue because they're so inwardly focused. But to me, even though again, it's not the purpose of the novel, those little ideas of the structure of hierarchy and control and the history of human and robots together, it's brilliant.

There's a another bit on the next page that I think ties in really well with what you were saying, Teresa, about the sort of fact that Dex might be the only one who, one of the only people that would think like this, because they even think the same way when it comes to doing things like creating trails in the forest and potentially damaging ecosystems in order to do this, where they say to Moscap, everybody thinks that they're the exception to the rule, and that's exactly where the trouble starts. One person can do a lot of damage. But then Moscap says in response, every living thing causes damage to others sibling decks, you all starve otherwise, which I think is good. Again, both of them are right. Yeah,

this is a this is the page after they're still in the same conversation about what they're not. Most capture would be carrying as a water tank. It's perfect though because again, they're both right. Dex from a, we're going to call it a societal and political angle, Dex is correct. Because if you have these norms about how to treat nature, in this specific example, how to deal with wild nature, if you're the one that goes, oh, we shouldn't make new trails because disrupts wildlife, but like I'm not making a new trail.

It's just me this one time. Well, then it's just that guy. That's one time. It's just her this one time. And then suddenly it's the new norm because all of you have decided that you're the exception. And now suddenly everyone is doing it happens all the time. This is a thing humans do. Just like look at like desire paths that get created, you know what I mean, across a campus or something

when like the path doesn't go exactly where people want it to go from one building to another, right? Like, well, I'm just going to cut across the grass. It's not a big deal. And suddenly everyone's cutting across the grass. You have a new trail. Like you can think about this with much more harmful ideas, right? Like extrapolate that to their previous paragraph. Well, we're not going to make the robots do work for me. I'm just going to have Moscap carry this tank for me this one time. It's very easy to see how suddenly you have robots doing all the manual labor again, because it's just me just this one time, not a problem. So Dex is right.

But Moscap is also right in that there's no way to live doing zero harm. It is impossible to live doing zero harm. And so you have to accept the possibility that some harm will come simply from your existence and that you have to be okay with that because there's nowhere for you to live completely harm-free. And immediately, because I've been making so many jokes on the episode about breakups and relationships, you can look at that directly to the physical world. There's harm done by the fact that I need to eat to live.

I'm vegetarian and honestly close to vegan. I haven't eaten meat in like four years or whatever it is. But in order to have farms to create the plants that I eat, that's doing harm to the natural environment in order for there to be farms for me to have the 50,000 pounds of soybeans I consume every year. Right? But you can also think of, you can all like, for me to live somewhere, I have to have a house, to have a house that has to displace animals and disrupts the natural

environment. That's just true. In relationships between people, you're going to cause harm at some point, whether you want to or not. And you have to be okay with that. You can't live on zero harm. And the only way to have zero harm in relationships other people would to be to be a hermit and have no relationships with other people right like there's no way to live zero harm and that is again to like you said just a page later both of them coming up the same problem from different angles and both of them being correct and i love that the book doesn't really tell you like it doesn't say that one of them is more correct than the other.

They just come to a working solution. And I think, again, it's brilliant writing. Good job, Becky Chambers. She has written The Long Way to a Small Angry Planet is the first in her, I would say, more traditional sci-fi series. It does not tackle the philosophical as much. It's more of a traditional science fiction series, but it's still very good. It's still won tons of awards. I think it's called the Wayfarer series. Yeah, that's what it's called, the Wayfarer series. Yeah, that's what it's called, the Wayfarer series. So if you're interested in more Becky Chambers and more sort of gentle handling of science

fiction subjects, I would definitely recommend those for light reading, you know, not so serious. Like, I mean, you're tackling like, she's tackling serious subjects, but just doing it in a way that isn't like, like soul crushing, you know what I mean, you're tackling like she's tackling serious subjects, but just doing it in a way that isn't like. Like soul crushing, you know what I mean? Like contemporaneously to this, like we started reading in right after before this will release an episode about a fantasy series called City of Brass. Right. Like the first book in this fantasy series.

They did the first episode with Trevor recently. Wonderfully written, beautiful world. Everything sucks. Like we joke about it being a book called Everyone Makes Nari's Life Worse All the Time. Like it is just a series of books about how Nari's life continues to get worse. And like, again, amazing books, but at the same time, like, wow, this woman cannot catch a fucking break. So it is nice to read Solomon and be like, you know what, Dex can catch a break, actually. Lots of them. Dex can have the iron, can have like, the, you know, bug-ridden iron giant show up and

serve them tea. And it's like, it's fine, actually. The bug-ridden iron giant show up and serve them tea and it's like it's fine actually The bug-ridden iron giant I love that Said I'm giant was super friendly too. You know, it's yeah Wow It's great. I will probably read the follow-up because I'm assuming the follow-up is is decks and moss cap I'm assuming the follow-up is Dex and Moscap meeting society. And so you know that there's going to be tackling these sorts of questions from a different angle of Moscap now encountering human society. And humans encountering Moscap and not having seen robots for hundreds of years.

Yeah. And being like Moscap trying to answer that question still. What do humans need? Well, we've tackled that. It'd be interesting to... I haven't looked at the synopsis. I don't know what it is. But it would be interesting to me if Becky then expands the question because this book

was Moscap going, what do humans need? And Dex going, I need self-actualization and self-love is what I need. It would be interesting if the next book expands it to be like, well, what do humans need now larger, you know, society-wise? Like, what do you do with a society? What does a society whose needs are all met need, as opposed to just sibling debts? You know, again, I don't know if that's where the book goes, but I think that would be an interesting question.

Just expand the scope now from one person to many peoples. Moss Cap is a great avenue to explore this question even on a large scale. Everything's done for you. Now what do you actually need? I just want to reiterate again, I want to go be a team. That sounds wonderful. Actually, I just want to pedal around tell people Damn that sucks, you know Want to have a drink? Also, here's some light reading that might make you feel better. I don't know Go sit down like this isn't like a wonderful job to me. I

Go sit on like this isn't like a wonderful job to me. I Found my new whenever now whenever anyone does that stupid like, you know, what's your job in the commune? I could just say t-mong Instead of plumber or I think it sounds better What are the jobs we've learned exist in this world? There's gardener, there's people that make the wagons, there's plumber, there's harassed father and team-up. Those are the jobs that exist. What's their college like, I wonder? Can I go to Anga College, like university? Even have university? Or is it just going to like, is

it just joining one of the like monk schools, you know? Yeah, I'm interested. I thought it was just like a free lecture hall. You walk in and listen and then leave. You just audit all of the classes. There's no grades. I mean, you're probably right though. It's probably just like you just show up to a class and listen and just hang out. Because like, I can't imagine this world has like a structured university system with grades and you know what I mean?

Like a side. Well, homework. Like I can't. No homework in this universe. No homework, no bedtimes. Let's go. No homework, no bedtime. Time is abstract.

Sunrise, sunset. That's good. No daylight savings time No When the Sun comes up you go to bed when Sun goes down, that's it like ish Nobody cares You know what actually cares look at me house everyone Soon as daylight savings time says especially the spring forward one suddenly everyone realizes, you know, abolish the clocks anarchists actually have a point. Every time we have to do daylight savings times.

So you're welcome. Okay, we did the fall back. You know, let's just never change. I say we riot and we refuse to change our clocks back. There's a society wide protest and just refusing to ever to change your clocks for any reason. Yep. We're going to finally have a general strike in America and it's not for labor rights, it's just for the clocks.

We want to work, just not at that time. Not at that stupid time. I hate losing an hour of sleep, screw you. Let me labor on a natural circadian rhythm. They should put the hour forward in the middle of the day so that we work less, not sleep less. Well, I have been a third shift worker during these, during daylight savings times and stuff, and it sucks.

Particularly this fall, this fall one was worse because I was working third shift and it would hit 2 a.m. and suddenly it was just 1 a.m. again. And you had to do a whole extra hour of work. It sucked, it was fucking terrible. Cause I worked like serving food at like bar close time. And so suddenly all the bar crowd has a whole extra hour of bar time. It was terrible.

But I don't know, does anyone have any closing thoughts about Psalm for the Wild, Bill? Anything we haven't touched on yet that you want to talk about? Any major themes? Anything else, Ketho? It's not a major theme. I just think it's really cool that one of their gods seem to be a weird mishmash of rationality and spirituality because they have a god of gravity. Oh yeah, we didn't talk about their gods. We could do a brief talk about their gods.

I don't remember them all and they're not really explained. They have a god of the physics, essentially. This is the physics god. There's like god of like creativity and a god of gravity which you write is a weird mix of like sort of spiritual and sort of The ambiguous and then there's like very practical direct gods You know who called for a recreation of the spirituality of mankind Murray Bookchin. God damn, right? Didn't read it again. Oh, oh god, you know what we're going to do? You know what's going to happen now? I got to stop myself because otherwise we're going to have like a whole episode that makes all the anarchists really happy.

And at the end, I'm going to start talking about like the power and importance of human spirituality and faith. And I'm going to make all the anarchists are really mad in the last 15 minutes of the episode. I appreciate that this book kind of handles religion in sort of a flat affectation. Religion exists, people can buy into the gods they want. If they don't want to, that's okay too. They're not gods as in like, this is promised to you in the afterlife. It's like, oh, there's a god of gravity because gravity exists, although maybe

we, you know, like the layperson doesn't know how to prove that gravity exists or that it is a law, but they're like, oh, there's a god of gravity because we know that we can see its effects, but we just trust that it's a principle. So here's our god of gravity, but we also have this god of creativity because creativity also exists. Could the lay person prove that creativity exists or that we're not all just faking it? No, but here's our guiding god of it. So I appreciated that prayers are guiding God of it. So I appreciated that there was a sensitive sort of handling of religion in this society. Yeah, I really like that. The other thing I really like about it is that we see it particularly with the tea ceremonies and stuff, but I get the feeling that they all do it is the ways in which people worship these gods is through ceremony.

It's through ritual, which is something that I, in my own faith, really appreciate and have come to learn to appreciate. It's ritual. It's repetitive, ritualistic behaviors, which again, from my own personal experience, are what help me feel better, you know, and feel the things that you people imagine you feeling by having this sort of faith. It's not the like, like you pointed out, it's not the like big questions like here's where you go when you die or here's what happens to your eternal soul or any of that stuff. This is a force that I can witness but can't prove. And I honor its existence

through a series of rituals that I do on a routine basis to reaffirm my commitment to the belief in the existence of this thing. And that sort of speaks directly to how I handle my own, I call it faith, religiosity, whatever you want to call it. I've like developed my own rituals and that seeing it done in a book this way was actually really nice. It's like you said, it's like a softer handling of like a faith than we've recreated, we've done fantasy Catholicism for the 17th

time. I think that just goes hand in hand with the very non-hierarchical setup of everything. It's like you can't have, I mean, you just functionally can't have the Catholic Church analog without structured hierarchy, which is just something you don't see in this setting. Like just by its very nature. So it makes sense to me that Becky had to come up with an approach to spirituality that fit inside that setting. And that seems to be the most agreeable one, if you're going to include spirituality at all, which I feel like people who've done this sort of thing in the past, Le Guin, have just not mentioned it.

But at the same time, that was Le Guin and Le Guin was an atheist. So I don't know how the approach to that is different because of her. And I don't know Becky's personal beliefs. So I think it's important or was important to this novel to have it included because Dex is looking for self actualization and meaning and a lot of the other people Dex encounters especially the other monks find that meaning and that purpose in the rituals and in their faith. It's another avenue presented in which decks could find meaning, you know, but you could find meaning in your work. You could find meaning in your faith. You could find meaning in your relationships. These are all options presented to decks that could be where they

find the meaning of life for themselves So like completely leaving that out. I think would be a big Gap that someone like me could point out if you simply never mentioned faith or religion at all You know Some annoying nerd like me could show up and be like, you know There's a whole other way a lot of people have found meaning throughout all of history and have it completely gone would be, I think, a misstep to not have that option available. I mean, one of the times Dex says they first start to feel comfortable is when they start attending when they're a kid and they start going to that one monastery, like take baths

or whatever it was. It's one of the first times they feel better is they're going to a temple and partaking in ritual. And so it's handled well and it's just nice to see, but I also think it was necessary for the narrative because it's another option on the table for finding meaning. Sorry anarchists, it's true. You can be mad at me all you want. A lot of people find meaning in faith. Sorry.

I mean, in that instance, it's more of a people mistaking the well, in that case, it's really, you know, mistaking the tree for the whole forest in that particular scenario. because I mean, most of the people we interact with in that space are coming out of American evangelicalism. So, and then, and then we just kind of flip to the logical opposite. It's a complicated topic. Yeah. Me wanting to talk about strangling Richard Dawkins is probably for a bonus episode, so less people get mad at me. Teresa, any other final things that you wanted to bring up? No. I appreciate you having me on to talk about this book. It's definitely one of my favorites that I've read probably in the past five years.

Thanks a lot for having me and slicing and dicing it with me. Thank you for suggesting it. This was a nice read, like I said, nice change of pace from books where everyone's life gets worse all the time. Even the books we recommend all the time, like where we mentioned it's up like Cataclysm for Leibowitz. Book one is just our poor boys life gets worse Until it ends. I Really appreciate having you on because Like Aurora mentioned at the beginning. We love having a guest on who knows more about the content that we do

Every time we get a guest Every time we get a guest on they're like, oh, this is one of my favorite books And I have all these thoughts about it and I've like studied it. And we just show up and you're like, I read this yesterday. That's that's all of our guests are experts. We're the idiots that like just sort of hang out, you know, it's wonderful. But thank you so much for coming on. Teresa people go check out Teresa's podcast, Attack of the Final Girls. Please do that. Uh, and we do do, we don't promote

it very often because I hate doing it, but we do have a Patreon where we talk about non books. Sometimes it's a movie, sometimes it's an album, sometimes it's a concept. Like our last bonus episode was just the concept of elves and how they're portrayed in fiction and the way their different portrayals and different fictional media, like what that says about the story, like the role the elves play in that story, can sort of tell you what concepts about humanity the author is trying to portray. And there will be a bonus episode out by the time this comes out where we watch Hereditary. So you know, that's just where we do other stuff so if you're

interested sign up for the patreon otherwise thank you so much to our patrons we love each and every one of you personally and I will be coming around later to smooch you on the forehead good night so be prepared Bye!