Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - James Graham

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

This week we have the fantastic James Graham joining us for lunch! James came by to talk about his award winning play, Dear England coming to the BBC. Over lunch, we covered everything from growing up in a Nottinghamshire mining village and telly dinners, to the huge Sunday roasts his family loved. We also chatted about Gareth Southgate, turning football into theatre, his love of musicals, the Polish soup disaster that put him off hosting, and his very romantic passion for whisky. James was such a thoughtful guest, we are such fans of his work and we absolutely loved having him at the table. Dear England is coming to BBC iPlayer and BBC One later this month!Listen & watch Table Manners here - https://tablemanners.komi.io/Follow Table Manners on:Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tablemannerspodcast/TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tablemannerspodcastFacebook - https://www.facebook.com/tablemannerspodcastYouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@TableMannersPodcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Tablemanors. I'm Jessie Ware. It's a beautiful day in South London. You look fabulous. I like the red. Do you match my lips? Or my lips match the jumper. It's good. It's working, honey. We are so excited about the guests today. I can't wait. I think I've seen probably at least more than half of his plays that he's written or been involved with. So we have the phenomenal James Graham, who is a playwright, a screenwriter. he's a national treasure. He's got an OBE for his services to drama.

Yeah. He is one of our most cherished and celebrated playwrights in Britain and just kind of around the world too. He's incredible. Well, he addresses current issues. That's what I love about him. And old institutions.

If you don't know who James Graham is, you may have heard of the hugely successful play that was at the national and then transferred to the West End called Dear England, which was all about Gareth. Southgate's kind of vision.

Rain and vision with the England squad and how he really turned things around for us. He's also made musicals, Tammy Fay, which was hugely popular at the Almeida. House. I didn't see House. I did.

He tackled Parliament and people voting, voting in the House. Sherwood. Sherwood, the Nottingham drama, which is so good. Punch, which I think won best. Punch, one best new play, I think. and has transferred from Youngfit to the West End.

And then it went to Broadway, Mom. It's gone to Broadway. He's just incredible. I think he's absolutely amazing. And he's coming over now. I am on food duty. I know. So I've made, because it's really nice weather, I've made two salads.

One is from the brilliant book, Jerusalem, by Yott Amel Selengi and Sammy Tamimi. And I've made this, I've never made it before, but it was quite straightforward. It's fennel. and chicken and chilies and basil and mint and all these beautiful herbs. And then you make this cooked orange saffron honey sauce, which kind of almost tastes like marmalade. So you griddle the chicken and it's got this kind of sweet orange dressing. But I think it will cut through with all the herbs and the chili.

So I've done that. And then I've done this roasted cauliflower, pistachio and pomegranate salad, which is from Otolengi simple. What's it simple? I mean, for Otolengi it was quite simple. And then I've got a bit of a sad loaf. What happened, Jess? I think I overproofed it yesterday.

It's not the proving. It's the cooking. No, no, no, it's not that. No, the dark is fine. I don't mind that. Oh. But I don't think I left my starter to rise for long enough. I think I was too keen to use it yesterday.

You actually know that, do you? I'm starting to understand Helen's starter. And you've made two puddings. Well, I made a cardamon and pistachio cake yesterday. And it does have a kind of caramelised almond and sugar topping with butter on the top. But I wondered if it felt a bit hard and felt like a giant biscuit. And I thought, I'm not going to let myself down. So I got up this morning and I've made a Lisbon chocolate cake from the New York Times.

Yeah. What makes it Lisbon? Someone tasted it in Lisbon. Oh, okay. And so it's basically a chocolate cake, but kind of very limited. It's like butter, cocoa, chocolate and corn flour. But no flour and eggs, that's the cake. And then it's got a chocolate moose on the top.

So making the ganache was a trial, I can tell you. Oh, really? Anyway, it looks all right and let's hope it works. James Graham, coming off on table manners. James Graham. Hello. We're so excited to have you. Why are you being?

like, no, you're a big deal. I love you guys. Also, like, none of, no one will know who way out. Shut up. Like, playwrights are so anonymous and rightly so. Okay, no. Tony nominee, Olivia Ward winning. That's true.

Makes kind of the best dramas on television. Right to play every other day. Sure. Congratulations on Punch. Thank you. I went to see it. I know you did. I remember.

I think I went just after the press night or just at the end of previews. Olivia and Vic. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for coming. And that was one of the most. a resting first halfs I've ever seen of any play.

He was unbelievable. David, yeah. Like, it was like, I didn't know him. And I felt like he's set up now. I'm sure he was acting before and doing very, very well. But that was a defining role for him. Yeah, he got a nominee as well. But it's, I'm so glad you got to see it.

It's one of those stories that you come across very rarely. That like, I can never like talk about it. Like nearly bursting his tears. It's like such a moving story of this guy, Jacob, real guy from Nottingham, who, um, who on a night out. you know, lads, gangs, drink, punch somebody and without meaning to, killed them with a one punch.

And it's just that rare story of, it's a story about masculinity and men in the criminal justice system that ends really positively. And basically what happens is the parents reach out to him and go on a journey of restorative justice where basically like the mother forgives him for killing his son and save his life, like decides she's going to help him

and now he's in that he got a PhD at university. Done TED Talks. I've done TED talks. He goes into prisons and saves with the young lads. I haven't seen it, yeah. I will go. I'm going to turn into a TV drama so you can give it a world. How does that work with like who plays who?

We don't know. Like the great thing about TV and then the sad thing is about you. You sort of hand it up to like TV gods and things like that. But no, I'm loyal to that cast and I will fight for them to the ends of the earth. Speaking of TV gods, you are a bit of a TV god anyway, but you've just made your amazing dear. England into a TV show and that's why you're coming on today even though we have been wanting you for a very long time haven't we? I know you're really patient I don't know why I keep

fucking up and not coming on I'm so sorry because I want to list all the ones I have seen and I forgot to mention ink which I absolutely adored about Rupert Murdoch that's just about we're just about to release that as a movie oh yeah Danny Boyle uh guy Guy Pearce um Australian actor oh yeah that's like menno yeah yeah yeah yeah sure next yeah perfect yeah well yeah who's directed the movie, he really wanted a proper Aussie to play Murdox to imbue that authenticity. But who did I watch play it at the Armada? You'd have seen by Bertie Carville. Bertie Carville. He won like an Olivia Anitone for that. He was sensational. Yeah. He's in the film as well playing a different part. But yeah, so it's fun. God, you don't stop.

Well, Ink was like eight years ago and it took me so long to get that screenplay right. It took me ages. It was in development hell, but not like in a good way, just in development hell in my head. Like no one was sharing the hell with me. I just couldn't crack it. Do you ever collaborate with people in the writing room? Or is it all just you? Right, and just me, yeah. But the joy of being like a playwright or screenwriter

rather than a novelist is really collaborative. Like you go into a rehearsal room and there's actors and there's directors and there's a set designer or like on Dear England. There's a choreographer. So in the script, I just get to go and now they do some penalties and hand that over to somebody and then they work it out and it's great. And as Devlin did the lighting, who is... Just so incredible.

She did the set and the lights and the story. She did the set which, okay, so you're on to talk about, Dear England, which we both watched at the National Theatre. Thank you for going. Such a pleasure. I think we're there the second week. It was so wonderful. My husband who hasn't always gone to the theatre who I'm like,

you're coming to the theatre with me. It was like the perfect entry point for him. I think it was your Christmas present. You've got us tickets and we went and, you know, by, is it the first half? we're all singing Sweet Caroline or whatever. But Sam was like, oh, okay, this can be the theatre. Fine, great, thanks.

Yeah, I'm glad. He then tells his brother to go. So it did bring in a different kind of national theatre audience. But that was always the hope and dream and that's got nothing to do with me. That's just like the hope was by telling a football story that a non-traditional theatre crowd will come and see. Why are you so humble? Of course it's got everything to do with you.

You decided to tell Garas Southgate's story and how he transformed the England. Those lads aren't coming to see me. They're coming to see because it's a story that they care about about football. And I know I came up with the idea and all that. See, I think people came because it was a James Graham play. And there were lots of old fuddy-duddies there. And then they were on the feet all going sweet Caroline at the end, which was amazing. It was amazing.

It was so amazing. And I'm so happy that it's been so successful. And we cheered for our every favourite footballer that came on. I know. I was. Harry. It was so special. And then, you know, Joseph Fines was phenomenal.

Yeah, so he's playing in the TV jammer as well, which is great. We watched two episodes. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, my God. Yeah, I watched last night. And it's got a different, it's got a different energy, of course, because it's not a play that's done in two hours. It's a four-parter.

It's a four-parter. And also, no, you're right. Like, it wasn't, I didn't find that really easy as well because the joy of the stage plays, it's theatre. So it's like an abstract language to it. Whereas telly is so naturalistic. That's right. But also the football's different.

So you actually see matches. Yeah. Which for me is thrilling because I love football. Great. Good. And whereas it was more choreographed. It was like a dance on stage. imagination and it was a dance.

Yeah, yeah. So it was a more serious. It was more serious in some respects because you address things like racism. Yeah. And yeah, you do, but not as, I don't feel it was as in depth. You didn't get the emotion quite, maybe quite as much.

I guess on telly, there's something about like the lens. Yeah. You feel like more interior. Yeah, yeah. You can see their face. I loved it on stage for what like, as and Rupert and the director,

people like did that because it felt like you were in a stadium. Yes. you're dancing and cheering. And then TV just had to have a different, like, grammar. You have to find a different quality to it. But I do think you honoured the stage play because it was quite bombastic with Edelan's design. Yeah.

With the kind of big zoom. There was big sound effects. Great sound, yeah. And I feel like you did that in the TV show without kind of giving too much away. It's captivating and it's very exciting. It's exciting. I hope so.

And I just find it, I could be like punch. I find the story so moving, but also it's like a really hopeful story. I think Gareth Southgate's project and loads of people have different views of the England manager and that's they're right. And it's everyone's England. It's not just mine. But I think what he did to transform the culture of that team and those young lads. Have you met him?

I have. What's he like? Is he gorgeous and sincere and kind? All those things. Yeah. Like the most Gara Southgate thing he did was that he obviously was a bit nervous about having an actor play him. And he didn't really think he was worthy of a story. He hadn't won a trophy.

So he thought, well, why are you doing a play about me? But also because he's Gara Southgate, even though he sort of hated it, he helped me do it. Because he thought, well, I want to help you. So he brought him with St. George's and I got to meet all his team. And we've stayed in contact since as he moves on to the next phase. his life and works out what he wants to do. So whether or not he'll ever watch it, I totally get why. He's never been to see the play?

No, family have, kids have, his mates have. He's just never seen it. And I get why. I think because the idea of people watching him, watching himself, that's just not what he is. But he can watch it on I play, can't he? He can. But even if he doesn't want to, I would totally get, like, would you watch an actor playing you if they did the biopic when they do the biopic.

I don't know. I love you. Of course they were. The song's so gorgeous. Natalie Cassidy playing Jesse. Just doing this now. But did you get the approval of all the actors for the real people? No.

Oh, so Marcus didn't have to approve who was playing him. No, it's a really good question. It's like I think about this all the time actually, like what the moral responsibility is when you're doing a real life story. And like you want to respect them and you don't want to, you know, there's loads of laws. You can't just destroy someone's character because you don't like them. But equally you need the distance as well.

Like they can't endorse it because I've got to both. defend them and prosecute them in a way. You've got to celebrate them, but you've also got to go, what did care of self? Can't get wrong. Was he good at this or was he bad at this? Do you agree with them? So we never saw an endorsement from the FA or the place

because I have a public responsibility to not be doing, I mean, they do quite a lot. Now, sadly, don't they? All these musical films coming out about bands and artists, and it's the estate that control them. I just think that's bloody. Like Harry Kane, because he's Sam's favourite. Well, I feel like you portrayed him slightly differently

in the TV show. Yes. He was different in the TV than the theatre. Because there was a lot of discussion about whether it was kind of slightly too comedic but I feel like you've definitely gone away from that. He's slightly different.

Yeah, he seems sharper. Was that accidental just because of kind of a little bit. I mean the actor was close. He was brilliant. He was playing it. And I think he just nailed it. But I think something does happen in a theatre where when people are laughing,

like a thousand people are laughing. I think I didn't feel this, but I think sometimes people thought, oh God, am I laughing at him rather than with him? And we tried to tell that story. He had a whole scene in the play where he goes, I know people take the piss out my voice and they think I'm not very smart

and I'm not a normal leader in the sense that he's not fireworks, he's a very thoughtful, he's very decent kind man. I think he's one of the greatest captains England have ever had because he carries with him a kind of nobility that is quieter than Beckham or Rooney. But I heard some people think that.

They thought it's just by being in a room where everyone's just really enjoying the impression. So on telly, we just wanted to make sure that because there's not that after, that you get in his head a little bit more. Can we just big up, Harry, because last night was probably one of the best. Did you watch the match last night? He scored his 59th goal of the season last night. And he's top goals for Bayern. England, of course, yeah, be run his record during our story.

He's extraordinary. He's one of the great. He's one of the great. But it's not just his performance. I maintain it's what he represents. Like how many male role models do the lads have now? And he's just a good man. And I just think that's brilliant.

Who do you support? I feel like it is Nottingham Forest. But I have to just like hold my hand up. I'm one of them fair weather people. Like I dropped out for a lot of my teenage years. And when they started doing better, I did come back to it. And so I have to hold my hands up for that. Do you like football?

I've always loved England. I don't know what it is. possibly like I was like quite a shy introverted kid and you know like I was a theatre kid I did ice skating I wore tights and sparkly things um you got ice skating I was pretty good well isn't nottingham isn't torquem and Dean from nottingham yeah yeah I stayed on that ice and were they the people that you were like looking at oh my god yeah yeah but obviously that wasn't a traditionally masculine thing and there's issues like when you're working out your sexuality and you're and I was like I was just not that um blokey kid I hated Pee I felt so nervous

service in PE. So wrongly, I had a resistance to, like, club football week by week, which I completely got over now. I was at City Ground a couple weeks ago. I saw Forest Beats Spurs 3-0 at the Stadium, a couple of at the Tottenham Stadium. So I love it now, but I always just had a bit of a love-hate with weekly football. So you grew up in Nottingham. Oh, we're going in. Therapy. Yeah. Can you get the wine up for Christy? I'm going to talk about feelings. I'm going to need lubrication. Um, I don't know that. Whilst producer Alice opens the wine,

um, grew up in Nottingham. Nottinghamshire. Nottinghamshire. Nottinghamshire. Nottingham. Oh, so you weren't, how far away from Nottingham? About 40 minutes on the bus. Where was your nearest Eminess?

Eminest. Well, for your food shopping and your underwear. Absolutely not. It was Iceland and Safeway. Oh, Iceland? I couldn't believe when I moved to London and Eminest did food. I remember thinking, I thought they just did bad shirts. Not a good shirt.

Are you kidding? We love it. I love it now. Where do we are from? Probably Debenums. Debenums. But it's like Mansfield was my biggest town. A manseville. A big mining town. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was all closing down when I was growing up. So I was

informed, I think, about my politics. Well, an informed Sherwood. Yes. Which we'll talk about later. But so who was around the dinner table? And what were you eating? It was, I've been thinking about this because of coming on. I was just going to own it. Like, we didn't sit around the dinner table. We sat with

it. On your tray on my lap, tele dinners. Well, that's how you've got so interesting drama. I mean, yeah. And I didn't know with that, like, it's not, definitely wasn't like across the, but it's a working class upbringing in a mining town. But then I knew mates who always sat at the dinner table, and they were very proud of that. But for some reason, that just wasn't in our, so I did, yes,

it was what neighbours in Coronation Street. My dad, with my parents divorced, my dad lived close to nighting him, and he worked for the local council. Did your mum work? Mum did loads a job. So when I was going, she worked in the local pub, the barmaid. And then she worked in a warehouse where I got my first job. And then she worked as a receptionist in a primary school.

She was always doing, and then worked in a shop in the weekend. She was always doing loads of jobs. And there were just for two of you. And I had a twin sister who lived with me. Oh, wow. You've got a twin. I've never realised that. Her name is Laura.

Laura. She loved a drama as well. We did plays at school together. And I've got an older brother, Richard, who has come into the film world as well. He's an editor. And I know Richard. I didn't know that. Because he went out on Harriet, my friend.

So I've been in France with Richard at weddings. You never told me that. Oh, well, obviously you didn't leave an impact on her. No, yeah, yeah. But he was lovely. He was probably just wanted to keep you to himself. No, he was very lovely. And I remember he being quite intense when we were both drunk.

And I quite like that, I enjoy intensity. So it was great. All right. Let's see what happened. Yeah. Cheers. Are you kidding? Are you such fans, congratulations.

Bless you. That's really good. My friends, I can't believe I'm here. Oh, please. I can. I don't care. but my friends. Oh, who are your friends?

They're obsessed with you. You should have brought them over. No, no, no. I need something. I need some status. Okay. Jesse, there's nothing in the oven. No, no, no.

Fine. No. So I've also realized that I've done something with loads of herbs. So there is the worry that we're all going to get it in our teeth. So we just have to be honest with each other. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. If we've got it, because there's potential.

Great. So when you're eating your food on your lap watching Telly, what were you watching? Soaps like curry, Emmerdale, he's dend, Is that your favourite? It was when I was growing up. I didn't watch it much now just because of time, but I loved the rhythm of it. Like the rhythm of that life. You come back every evening and see what happened next.

I was obsessed. Like, oh my God, like when we went on a holiday and like holidays were in a caravan in Mansfield. We would go to a field and be there for two weeks in our same town. And your same town? Yeah, yeah. I remember the, I remember the 92 Olympics. We just watched it in a field. I could like see my house.

like pretending one holiday. Oh, sweet. Whenever we go away, I get all my neighbours to record the soaps on the VHS tapes

and they come back and watch them for hours. Omnibus. Yeah, oh my God, the Omnibus. I'd watch that after watching it

in the week. Oh, I love it. What were you eating on the tel-dil? It was like, this is no shade unlike my family but it wasn't like a cookie house.

It is now. I think that's changed culturally in a lot of these places but at the time sometimes microwave dinners. but like my vegetables was often mushy peas in a tin but then Sunday dinners were massive like Sunday rose that was huge I used to love that who came for that

again I'd just be family and I had a group with a stepdad who was the local window cleaner who he started cleaning our windows then started cleaning him on the inside they had the cleanest windows in the village for some reason I was like this is interesting and then he just stayed he was very sweet so my stepdad my sister my brother and my mum yeah what was your roast of choice. Did your mum change it up? We always change it up. But I remember actually when my, my grandma was alive, my mum's mum, she was the school dinner lady.

And she was so... At your school? No, at a different school locally, but there was just something about the... And again, I don't think my nan was like a massive cook, but on the things that she did, like those kinds of puddings or those school dinners, she just had her, I can't remember what it would be her particular way that used to really stress my mom out. Right.

It was the equivalent of having Gordon Ramsey in the kitchen when my nan was there. And it was only like roast chicken or roast beef. She had an opinion on that. She had an opinion. Not like me at all. No, not like you at all. But my mum could always sort of feel like, what are you doing with the veg in that? Like she would just feel the pressure of the school dinner lady.

Did it end up in a fight? Just passive aggression really. Oh, okay. Which is very healthy. Didn't let it out. No, push it down. Got it. Let it stay there for 20, 30 years.

I think it's what New England's about pushing those feelings. that I'm not talking about them and just hoping that'll be okay. How is it being a twin? I didn't notice. I'm obviously, why would you? Because you don't know any different, do you? I sometimes forget I'm a twin. Like after I go, I've got a sister. She was born on the same day as me.

Do you look a mind? No, she's blonde. She's the only blonde in our family. I was very, I don't think she'd mind me saying this. Like when she came out, she was quite big. And then I flopped out after I was absolutely tiny. I think if I hadn't a. blinked that had thrown me away.

Then they put me in an incubator for weeks while she went home and started driving. Had all the milk. Yeah. So she was, we were just, I was very, very small and very wee growing up. And she was just, yeah, more confident. So we did quite thin growing up? It was tiny, yeah.

And I think I had like, I did have an anxiety about it for it. I was very, very skinny all the way through my teenage years, which used to hate. Now I'm like, God, I wish I was skinny now. But you don't make you tiny. It's like, you have to put in just to say the same. Did your mum worry about you eating? No, but I think I was a bit indulged.

Again, no blame, but like I was, I like those things. I don't really like to diverge. So I remember when I go to Friends House, I would get really anxious about what they would serve me. And there's a bit, like on my dad's side of the family, there was that culture. He's like parents of, if you don't finish. You keep going, you keep going.

No, so you have it the next day and the next day the next day. Oh my God. Yeah. And I get like I totally get why. I remember this awful day. I used to be anxious about milk for some reason. You'd like it. It was something like psychologically about it. And breakfast again, breakfast was just cereal growing up, cocoa pops and frosties. But it had to be semi-skinned milk if it was too fat. I just had a reaction. And my dad used to tolerate this. And then I remember one day I thought he'd pulled. in fat milk and didn't like it, but it was the right milk. He changed it and it gave me my brothers, which was the wrong milk.

And then I tasted the wrong milk and realised my mistake. And understandably, it was like, I'm sick at this. And I had to finish that bowl of cereal. It took me about four days. And I used to know in the morning. I have to come back to it and look at it. I was just a very, yeah, I was like a very nervous kid. Do you still speak to your dad?

Yes, I love him. He's gorgeous. I'd give him the wrong. milk on this cereal. Was it just because they were like you're not wasting food? I think, yeah. I came from a really good place. I'm so glad that I was

in the polite way would be encouraged to like face my fears and try new things and eventually I didn't now I love food now but that only came because I needed to give my head a bit of a wobble and I could dress my fear around it and that only happens by facing it. What's your favourite? What was your favourite meal

when you were little? It would have been, I loved a English breakfast and love the roast dinners like curries and things but like meat, definitely meat. So vegetables, one of my first jobs was on the till it's my local supermarket

and just because I hadn't really grown up with many fresh vegetables in my life I remember the first day I'd see things coming down the convey about and I hadn't a clue what they were and obviously you have to get your sheet out and go that's a butternut squash

and I'd never see the bouronet squash in my life or every definitely every coagette went through as a cucumber um so i had to just i had to just like sort myself out and go there's all these opportunities and there's all these my mom ever cooked broccoli or conchettes and it was kind of exotic yeah i think that is that is really changed we had peas or we had carrots right yeah but most the best came out of the freezer and that's really changed now this this i'm like my mom's got all these cookery books and it's it's really exciting and a big long cook is one of my favorite things with my friends um taking five six hours So can you cook?

Yes. I mean, my friends would say no, but I definitely can. I just need to protect the time. You have to protect the time, don't you? And that's what I struggle with. I'm a diagnosed, like, workaholic, and I will easily choose working on that script over looking after myself. And it takes, it's taken, like, friends and family to tease me out and go,

and cook, like, I've spent, have a Sunday after and let's cook a little dinner. So I've heard you're a workaholic. And you say you're diagnosed. Does that mean you're getting, you've been in therapy to try and deal with it? Yeah. And I used to feel so anxious about talking about it because there's something about, I guess there's a perception and I get where it comes from that as addictions go, it's a bit made up.

Like just it's not the chemical addiction of alcohol or drugs or surely you control how much you work. Except it must give you some endorphins. It's the same thing. I've learned to be Yeah, it's Any addiction I guess is filling some kind of hole in your life, isn't it? It's like a vacuum Because you're not dealing with something

Or I know, definitely chemical But the dopamine hits I get from I guess when I realize it was a problem It's because my behaviours And certainly I noticed I was lying to my friends about In the exact same way you go Oh, I haven't had a drink today

I've only had one glass. I would say, and I got up at a normal time, and I hadn't, I got up at like three, or I'd work through the night. And you go, why am I lying?

That's interesting. I must know that the pattern is unhealthy. And you start to be a absolute chaotic mess in the same way you would if you were doing drugs or people would look at you going, and you're okay, that looks like you're wearing yesterday's clothes or you're not really shit.

So it's the same, it manifests in the same way. You just have to get over the shame with people going, it's basically a humble bragging it. You're going, oh, I'm so successful. I'm working so much. We're quite happy that you are because of the prolific. But that's interesting, isn't it?

I've realised it's the only... That's not helpful. But it's the only addiction. But no, it's great. I love it. But it's the only addiction where everyone wants you to have it. You want to carry on. Yeah, it's great.

Yeah. But so what is your day like for someone who works very hard? There's no normal day, which is brilliant. What time to get up? I'm not going to lie. No, it's got later. Like I've realised that I love sleep. I really like sleep as I've gotten older.

So I do like working early. There's something psychological about feeling that you're ahead. And there's still definitely something about not growing up in the arts world and parents having proper jobs. There's something about going, I need to tell myself it's a proper job. I can't like waft around the house. do fire under words in the afternoon I've got to work

so 6.37 oh that's quite early yeah and try to and do you have coffee first have coffee yeah make a little French press of coffee I'm not a coffee snob at all

but I do yeah big old pot of coffee which I'll get through breakfast do you forget to eat no I don't forget but it's just

I don't wake up massively hungry but then when I'm like with friends Like if I stay with some friends and things, I love it. I have a big old. You like a full English. I love for English or like a lovely yoghurt, granola, fruit, honey. That's great.

Intellectually, the idea of, I've got like, I'm quite lucky. I've got like a nice garden here in London. And intellectually, I understand that what would make me dead happy would be to protect 30 minutes in the morning where you go out with a lovely bowl of fruit or something's money and sit outside. out there and not doing things, just like be in your head. Yeah. And every morning I find myself at my computer with my coffee, but like just doing that.

So you don't have your breakfast. Do you stop for 11s is or do you go out and exercise or? Yeah, I'll go to the gym. I like running. But the good thing about, the amazing thing about being a playwright or a screenwriter is people drag you out the house because you've got stuff to do. You've got to be in a rehearsal, you've got to be on set or you've got to go to some auditions. You're not like a novelist.

and put yourself in a log cabin and do 500 words a day. So most of my life actually is in meetings. I've got to really protect the work time, which is also possibly why I got up at 6 in the morning. But I'm so grateful for that. I'm so grateful that most of my days are surrounded by other people making the work rather than just being in my own head. And do you work always in the same place?

You like to work in your study or at home? I move around quite a bit actually. Upstairs I've got a little office or in the garden or in my kitchen. Oh, so you take your laptop everywhere. Yeah, move it around. But most of the time, you get like 12 minutes between the things. So you're in a cafe or on a train.

The number of lines I've written between Stockport and Crew. It's not romantic, but you just got to do it. So what we have here is chicken with saffron and honey and orange dressing, chili, basil, coriander's in there, mint, fennel. It's from Jerusalem, the cookbook. Amazing. Otolengi and Sammy Tamimi. Lovely.

And then this one is also an Otolengi, but it's from his Otolengi Simple. And it's a roasted cauliflower with grated raw cauliflower, pomegranates, pistachios, hazelnuts, and loads of other herbs. Good. It doesn't look simple. It means Otolengi symbol. That's what they called that the cookbook. Otelengi symbol. Great.

And then there's some bread if you want some. How gorgeous. Thank you. So please help you. I do like a bit of kick, like a chili. Okay, good. Thank you. I can't be the first to serve.

Yeah. Yeah. You're the guest. Yeah. Thank you. Oh God, no pressure. Try to do that Master Chef bite with you. Oh my God.

Mm, good. Okay, good. All right. More enough, thank you so much. Oh, God, the orange. It's good, isn't it? She's zesty. Yeah.

She's zesty. But not so spicy. I always amazes me how something can be so light and yet full. That's that book, Jerusalem. Right. One of the best cookbooks. I think it's one of the greatest cookbooks for a great time. Sammy Tamimi and Yotan Motelengi are.

incredible so it's all them it's not me at all this is the thing that would have freaked me out as a kid really just all the bits like all the complicated bits and it I wouldn't know what to do with it I love it but I had to train myself well then you kind of were in the land of loveys and you had to kind of go for dinners all the time

and you're Joe Sheikies and the Ivy you have to just sort yourself out do you have like a tradition of somewhere that you go post a show opening even though just joked Jay Sheikis. I've never been there.

I love it. I mean, I didn't know it was a thing. Because of where it is in the West End. It's kind of between a lot of theatres. And I was very, it was going to sound like a humble brag. I was very lucky one year I had two plays on the same street. St. Martin's Lane, which they should have renamed.

Which one? James Passage or something. I love that. I'm going to go down James' Passage. I wish. James Grames Passage. I wish. I love that.

It was at the Noel Coward and maybe you saw ink at the Duke of York. Norse or Inka, the Mado. We moved down there, so I was sort of between those two theatres. What I really love, because I often eat alone, because I'm working. What I've discovered I love is if you can sit at the bar on a high stool, face, face away from other people, but face the kitchen or face a barman. It's a lovely way to eat on your own. I discovered that in New York, I think, when I was working out there.

and just because you're there for months and months and months on your own. New York's a great place to be on your own. And they just have a culture of, yeah, sitting at a bar, even in a pub, sit at the bar. And I love that. So, yeah, for some reason, Jay Sheik is on the last night of any run of a play in the West End. I go there and...

Do you go on your own? Go on my own. I like a moment on my own. Often I'll go there with friends or loved ones or cast members, but that's a moment when I just sort of go on my own and try to... very unusual for me, take the moment of going. So that was nice.

I had to play in the West End. That was good. Well done. And I had a little whiskey and champagne or some oysters. And then you go see those. Do you like oysters? That's a beautiful tradition. Yeah.

Very inconsistent for someone who was worried about food. Someone who's struggled with your conflict. Yeah. Exactly. Frost is, no way. What a slimy thing that's alive down your throat. Yeah, that's great. For some reason.

I think it's the ritual of it, like the ceremony and the cheering of it. Yeah, yeah. you're doing something together, which is great. It's what theatre is beautiful to me because it's one of the last things that you can only do in proximity with other people. It doesn't work without other people. And I thought about that during lockdown

why theatre is amazing. And actually why I think in any conversation about AI and the future, theatre's going to be fine. Like it survived 2,000 years and it's going to keep going because, and I think a younger generation is coming to the theatre because of that, because they, in there,

we've become more atavised and entertainment and culture is shared privately. That feeling, very similar to going to a football. And celebrating together is like just a human, human need. And there was like a study, I think it was University College, London, that did a study of people's heart rates when they sit in a theatre. And something happens in like the 10th minute when everyone's heart rates start to line up. And it only happens about, I think it's something specifically about watching a story.

So it doesn't happen necessarily with classical music. or if you watch and share a story together in the same space. That's amazing. I know. It's really cheesy and sentimental. Romantic and but I think we have to hear those things and remember those things because we are becoming more and connected and like it always takes me that a younger generation the biggest problem is loneliness.

And you think how can we, all these devices in the pocket that are designed to connect us and like young men in particular are lonely. Can't bear it. Really can't bear it. But it's not real connection, is it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like social media. So the exhaustion of having to perform and narrate your own life

rather than be like this is the Gara Southgate thing. And this is why I know. And he wouldn't characterize it as this. And I think he wrongly has perceived his experiment, his project was wrongly perceived as being like woolly and woke and proglary. Because it's about feelings and vulnerability. But actually it was all about strength. Like men being stronger by sharing the things that they're all sharing

and actually talking about it. He identified that before him, we had this golden generation of players that just couldn't sink up, couldn't be a team. And they've spoken about that. Like Gerard and Rooney, they were just like, we just didn't trust each other.

We didn't like each other. We didn't know each other. And we didn't know what England was. We had a very clear club identity. rituals and symbols and history and legacy and story. And then they turned up at England and they were just told to go and play. And Gareth just recognised immediately.

what you have to, if you're going to trust each other, if you're going to take risks, if you're going to be creative, you have to know each other and like each other. And that's not weak. I'd like to go, I'm scared, are you scared?

It's about the strongest thing anyone can do. And I find it so amazing. And I try to celebrate that in this TV drama because I do think he's mischaracterized as being, he did it, people think he did it because it was just nice. It was the nice thing to do.

It was a nice thing to do. But also it worked. They became a better football team. And we've had a series of better results in 150 years. It's extraordinary, but you did that by, like, his story for a young man of resilience, like what he went through when he missed this penalty in 1996, which is where we start. And then 20 years later, he comes back. And it's him.

It's so, like, as a writer, how to, like, get lucky enough to find this story. He is the one who fixes the penalty curse. England had never won a World Cup penalty shootout. And he's the one who walked into this room and went, I think we have a problem. They didn't even practice penalties before him. I mean, that was mad about the timing. Yeah. That the Germans, who were the best penalty takers,

took seven seconds. And we were the fastest. We were the fastest in the world. We didn't practice them. We didn't talk about them. And like classic, let's just pretend they don't exist. And it obviously didn't work. And he looked, he used his own trauma to go,

I think we have a problem. How are we going to fix it? And I think that story of resilience, like as a young man, there's so many negative stories about young men at the moment, are there? And I think, the manosphere. The manosphere. and do we perpetuate a crisis of masculinity,

but I keep saying there's a crisis in masculinity. But him going, how do you behave as a young man if something bad happens to him? Or if you fail? Do you get angry, resentful, blame the world, or do you use it to come back better next time? And I can't think of a better example of a guy who just went, let's just like come back better and do that together.

I think it's so gorgeous as a story. When did it come to you to make the play? I was in a pub. All the best ideas come from. I was in a pub garden watching, I was Russia, 2018, the first World Cup. I think it was Columbia, Columbia, England. When it went to Pendezons.

And they, for the first time ever won. But even before that, I think I was watching in the second half. And I remember hearing people talking about it and me agreeing, they just felt different. We had fallen out of love with our players and the age of, like, tabloids and wags and bad behavior. And I think some of that was really unfair on those players. But this is a younger generation,

the youngest team we'd ever put out in, since that in the 1920s. And they just felt good. They felt like good men. And I thought that's, I just was really curious about how somebody, I remember the age of the waistcoat and he was presenting a kind of English gentleman thing.

So 2016? 2018. He took over in 2016 and that was 18 was his first World Cup. I remember like speaking to me on the phone and she was going, I just like them. I don't know why. They just feel like good men. And I thought, how did you go into any workplace

and change like the culture of it? especially football, which is, you know, traditional and old. I just found that really curious. So I remember calling them, calling the FA. You have to just be really bullshit and just, like, call prime ministers and say, want to do a play about you. And they were really kind. And they said, we get offers a lot.

We get, like, documentary offers and things, which we always turn down. But there's something about a play, particularly for the national theatre. They thought that's interesting. But they basically said, can you wait? because it's a three-act structure and Gareth had in his head this three-act structure beginning, middle and the end.

And you were like, that's music to my ears, I can wait. Absolutely wait, so we're only in Act 1. So Gareth had the idea for the three acts. He basically, one of the main things he identified, and I think this is applicable across our national life. In football, he identified that one of our problems was we just chase the quick fix.

A new manager arrived, get the plays on and just like try and find this. and we as fans were as responsible for that problem because we were going, we need to win now, rather than going what the Germans did. Do you remember when the Germans lost to us, 5-1, I think in 2000? Everyone had socks with 5-1 on, yeah, from St.Sbridge, yeah. It was a great moment, not for the Germans,

and so traumatised why were the Germans by losing to us that badly. They engaged on a decade-long project of renewal, or they called it Das Reboot. and in a very German way when this can't happen again we can't lose to the English this by the so they took a decade to root and branch

yeah and they started a really young inexperienced they changed a training program they changed how they organised that was because they lost to England that's kind of amazing I know so they're welcome and then 10 years

they come back and they win the walk up again and we never do that in any part of our national life even in our politics right now and we don't allow for it to happen We don't go, this is going to take a decade. But imagine if we've done that 10 years ago, energy policy, housing, anything, would be okay now.

And we just never have the courage to go to this. Because people want quick fixes. And again, why? It's really, because things are really bad. So we want it to turn around very quickly. But what you need to do, what you need to do that successfully is have a really good storyteller. Gareth was a really good storyteller. He said, this is going to take time.

We might not win the first one, but we hope to win the third one. They had a clock. It's in the drama. they had a clock that was counting down to the third tournament just so the players went calm down. We don't have to do this tomorrow. So when he wrote the Dear England letter, were you just like, thank you.

Seven. I mean, honestly. It's a work of art. Like, put it in the loop. It's a gorgeous thing. I just read it. And I'd already decided to do the play by then. I'd already spoken to the team.

I'd spoken to the national. They'd said, can you wait? And it was going quicker than they imagined. So I think their plan was to get to the semi-final in the euros that we hosted and they got to the final. And then the plan was meant to get to a final in Qatar and win that. And obviously, the spoilers didn't happen. It doesn't matter if we were on our way to winning. So they were ahead.

But that letter, I don't know disrespect to previous England managers, but when you read the language in it. And like just treating us as grown-ups and going like things like, why do we care so much? why do we behave the way we behave? He talked about conduct, which I just love. And it's why I don't necessarily understand why some of his detractors, particularly on, let's say, the small, see, conservative side of things that would prefer a different strategy. Don't celebrate.

A patriotic English man going, it's not just about results, it's how you conduct yourself, it's how you behave as men on the pitch. And as fans and as women and his families and everyone, it's how you behave. wrote that and I just thought it was so beautiful but what he also wrote I think the sentence is and it made me realize he's the state of the nation play right we needed I think of the sentence is white matters so much is every football match when England plays is it sees itself we are all part of a collective that sees itself as the national consciousness they had an England football manager saying that but the national consciousness that what we're all doing in any part of our lives is contributing to a story and and making new memories that we share for each other. And the fact that he described that as being, that's why I'm here.

He wanted to make new memories for people. I just think it's so beautiful. I'm interested. With somebody you work so hard and fast, but also with such amazing output. That's very lovely, thank you. Oh, good, pleasure. Writing a musical.

Yeah. How was that for you? Because you've got to wait for someone like Jake Shears to, no doubt, Jake's one of the, best writers, but and Elton John, you're kind of waiting for that bit of it. Was it quite frustrating? Or did you kind of understand patience? You learn a lot about yourself because, yeah, you're not in control of everything.

And that's great as well. Yeah. You're sharing the, um. Tammy Faye we're talking about. I wish you were so annoyed. I didn't see. We missed. Yeah, so we did really well at the Armaged and the Redder.

It was like. No. Which I know it was probably, but it's, I'm really sorry about it. that. I mean, thank you. Explain what Tammy Faye's about. Maybe that's why it didn't do well in, very possibly.

I've thought about a lot. I don't think I've completely understood that moment, but like in a garage Southgate, Piper Grains where I try and go, well, what was that like failure is an important part of your life? And what was I in control of? What can I learn from it?

What was I not in control of? Was it always destined to fail? So Tammy Faye was a musical. I wrote the, you call it the book, but the script, which is sort of how you structure the story and the dialogue. Jake Shears, amazing, a friend of yours, like, a Cesar Sisters guy, he wrote the lyrics, and Elton John, which was amazing.

And this is an incredible trio. It was really lovely to spend time with these people, who I just admire and adore. He wrote the music. And so, yeah, the rhythm of that is, I worked a lot with Jake directly on the story. So you go, here's how I'm going to shape the story of this televangelist who, despite coming from that world of sort of right-wing Christian. America found a really beautifully tolerant, progressive version of her faith, whereby she was the first person, I think, to have an AIDS patient on her evangelical show. And she really celebrated him and celebrated gays in the church, and the church turned against her.

And she was this incredible figure of defiance and celebration, like a beautiful woman. It was also very complicated. She bankrupted loads of people. And she said she didn't know all the money she was taking in on excessive glamour and houses and cars and really looked. overly meaty, complicated stuff, ripe for a musical. And it's also Elton's world, like that gospel stuff. So it just felt great.

So I would work on the story and how I would shape it. You would say, I'd say to Jake here, I think it's the next scene. So what's the song? What is a song? What's my work? What's your work?

He'd write lyrics. I'd go back and forth. It was great. I'm really collaborative. And then you get an email from Elton who's then written the music and you click it. And it's the feeling

when you know you're like maybe the second or third person hearing a new out. song in the world. I just absolutely loved it. So it was different and you have to really leave your ego at the door. Like basically no one gives a shit about the book writer. People come to music for the songs.

So what you're in the service of is that and it's kind of really pure. Yeah, they come for the story. They do, but I don't think of it in those terms and rightly so you just go, I'm here to serve this story and to serve this music. And it went really well in London. It went amazingly. It was sold out. It was sold out. I didn't get a ticket.

Katie Brave and Garden of Livia Award for it. It was amazing. Yeah, and we couldn't get a ticket. And I was supposed to go on the last night and I was sick or something. No, we were sick. Oh, you were sick? You were, we had COVID broke out in the company.

That's what happened. We had to cancel it, yeah. And then you go to Broadway and it doesn't, it gets taken off quite early. Really, it's what it was like, you have to own it. And the other thing we don't talk about. Two months.

It was about that. It was probably less than two months. Less than two months. It was one of those that will go, like, in the history books where it goes, this went. It was, it was, it was bad. Would you feel it happening when you were there?

Were you like what's going on? I knew something was wrong. You could feel, um, there was not, either the mood wasn't right or, um, there were challenges as well. Again, it's no one's fault, but we were in a really big theater. Okay. Um, possibly too big. We had to feel that.

I also think there was understandable, um, questions about, even though, um, Jake is American, is it, it was a British transfer of an American story. And I understand like American, American, audiences. It was a very difficult moment in America at that time. We opened during the election of the in 2024, the second election of Trump. Very violent time in America, very upsetting time. And I think our culture in this country is more is, especially when it's our stories, you go, this is when you go to the theater, you go, we need to look at this and address it. And I guess there was a problem a bit of a British transfer telling an American story to a very difficult time

for America and I get that and I really respect that and for some reason you have to go was it slightly the work? Was it my work? And was it the wrong time? Was it the wrong place? But for some reason it just didn't take and you have to respect that. You have to just own that and

try to learn from it but it's definitely not the audience's fault. It's definitely not the theatre's fault. I think you could bring it back to none of them. Would you bring it back to the West End? Yeah that's what. Or does it feel a bit raw still? It'd be really brave it'd be really brave to go we're going to try it again

and that has happened shows have failed and then come back and been brilliant didn't Mary Misgot the worst reviews really really died when it's first run in Stratford

one stars two stars and it's been running for 20 years so you can learn from it and merrily we were all along I think didn't really do what it did was it's sundime isn't it

and then it's just had this huge moment on Broadway with Jonathan Graff and Daniel Radcliffe and now they're making it into a movie and with Richard Linkley. So I would like you to bring it to the West End. But also, you could take it up to the Armada for a second run

and then move it on slowly. I think the work that Jake and out on did, I think it's really beautiful. And that's what you, of all the many complicated feelings you have when you have something doesn't work. And the thing I don't think we've ever comfortable talking about, like, is humiliation. I was embarrassed. Were you?

Yeah. You like want people to be. I think, I'll fuck off. No, it's easy for you to say, Mum, Your name is the one on the lights. I think I would have. And you feel responsible for a cast and you feel... God, a company about a neck, especially,

it's really hard if you're in that world as an actor. People had their first Broadway job. They moved to New York. I felt that a couple of company really, really heartbreaking. Of course you go, what could I have done? If I'd have fixed that, if I'd have done that. And I know there's not much I could have done. But you do, yeah, you feel the public embarrassment of it

because, of course, you want people to think you're good at your job and what you do. Can we fast forward into, Punch has gone to the Broadway. And it's done very, very well. In Quint to Broadway and that was lovely. So yeah, I don't know why my plays, but musicals are hard. Musicals are famously hard. Expensive and hard.

Would you ever do another one? Without a doubt. I'd dive into it immediately. Really? Even with the potential for failure, and I think only, it's not only four musicals have made them money back this century. They're really, really hard to get right. Which is your favourite musical?

I love late mares. I think the music's beautiful. I mean, it's romantic and it's very 18. I'm going to see Into the Woods tonight. Into the woods is a gorgeous thing. I've heard it's amazing at the bridge theater. And I love, oh God, it was like Blood Brothers growing up for me. Oh, my God.

It's not true. Living on the Never Never. Oh my God. Yeah, really great. Love that. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I love them because they are unapologetically emotional. Like, they're just about big, big, big feels.

I'm going to start asking you about some food stuff. Okay. Yeah. We've got to think about your. Last Supper. Start a main, put, drink of choice. Yeah.

You can think about this for a bit. Thank you. I knew it was coming. Yeah, but I also, you cook, do you? Enough. It's my future, it's my future ambition

to really protect time. So do you have people around for dinner? Very, very, really. But my future ambition, I've just done my kitchen up and it's ready. It's ready to be a host,

a host venue. So, and I'm really looking forward to it. Like, I just, so what's your meal that you've, I have a trauma I need to get over it which is I remember when I first moved into this my place and I wanted to get the neighbours round and for some reason I decided to cook this I'd had it in Poland this Polish soup the sour soup yeah it's like it's got like a sausage in an egg yeah yeah it's

like it's like a really bit left field it's a really left field it's like probably really hot day but I just I had it in my head and it takes like four hours something of like really slow. Why did you do that? Because I'm stupid and it ended like this. You have to strain it at the end I think because of all the onions and herbs. And I heard the door go and my neighbours were arriving. And I went, okay, great. I just strain it. And I put the colander in the sink and poured it into the colander. There's nothing underneath. And I remember when it was going and I saw it go down and I remember was putting it down, having a moment, and then answering the door. I said, hi, welcome in.

I'm so sorry, there's no food. I just pulled it down the sink. And they could tell they knew I wasn't lying because of the state. Like, clearly food had been made in my kitchen. And I just pulled it down to sink. Oh, mate. I remember sitting down and Booth was going, and then answering the door. Oh, my.

I think the sausage and egg was still in the sink. So what did you have? I did. I think I ordered delivery. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry. It's okay.

Never cooked again. Never cooks again. So what, I'd like to overcome that trauma somehow. So one of my questions I'd like to ask, because I'm thinking about people having music on in the background, what sort of soundtrack do you like to listen to? Again, it's really naff and sentimental. I love film scores, instrumental.

Do you? And like Max Richter or Philip Glass, and I think because they're connected to narrative and because you might know the narrative, I saw a ballet at the opera that Max Richter wrote about Virginia Wool and her really beautiful, really beautiful. So anything that's just stirring and epic or, you know, Han Zimmer and all that stuff, it's quite, it's like quite, yeah.

It can be intense. Yeah. Because you have to think about soundtracks for your theatre and your plays. Sometimes, yeah. That's the gorgeous thing when you get to work with people who compose, the composer for Deering. And Colmac or working with someone called Daniel Pemberton at the moment on my ink film, when they've interpreted your story and they come back with this school.

and I think for dear England I remember the moment they went to this huge church a city I think in Europe and Hungary and they have an orchestra and they're playing it and you go and that's a really lovely moving thing I mean I know this is second nature to you but when someone's interpreted your story and translated that into a different language

and like a score and that's really beautiful I love that. Last supper, come on. This is probably a cop-out but the reason why I'm going to say is given my previous younger version of that was quite frightened about food. One of my discoveries, a group of friends,

we try to protect a weekend every year. We will go to some random European city and make sure it's not Paris or Rome. Went to Toulin and we went to Helsinki and Krakow. And one of the things we do is... Sal soup, was that because you did... That was the soup. Yep.

Great weekend then. Great, yeah. We discovered... I discovered that I love tasting menus. Oh, you do? Which is so strange. So the extended nine-course meal, particularly when you get the peering wines. And I think because of the story, the theatre, where you're going on a journey,

and there's normally some kind of narrative, went to this place, is it relay in Copenhagen? And it's, you know, it's got a story. And it's from the local region and it's all local ingredients. And it's about, so I think going on a journey like that. So partly because I think it would delay. my death by having a nine course taste of many, but that's three hours. But something about the rhythm of that nine dishes,

paid wine. Could be anything. I don't mind if it's foraged Norwegiany stuff or if it's sumptuous, Polish food, the theatre of the story, and just taking your time and every course you have a 10 minute break and you chat to your mates and you take a photo. So you're not actually fussed about what you're eating.

You like the story behind it. You're doing the right job then, aren't you, James Grimm? Absolutely. You would hope. Yeah. And also, again, like, theatre, it's what you share, like the collective. Okay, so tasting menu, we're not going specific on the food. I don't think so. Well, drink? What drink are we doing? So paid wine, so start. Oh, wow. Yeah, okay. So, but I'll hand that to the guard slash sommelier. So it's up to them. But I guess you start on a little blush maybe or some champagne, some beers move through the white into the red. Are you finishing on a whiskey? Yes.

Which whiskey are you finishing on? I love whiskey too. What should hate it? Like Scotch and more. I like it quite peaty. Yeah, me too. And smoky. Oh, let's go do a whiskey tasting together. It's my favorite thing.

Are you serious? I never remember. Yeah, I'd love to do that. I love it. I love it. I love whiskey so much because I'm just saying the same things over and over again. But because of the story of whiskey, no disrespect of vodka or even wine. Like fine, but what, six months?

Whereas whiskey, right, I think to be called single malt, it has to be a minimum of 12 years. But when you get like a single malt that's 21 years, 28 years, the idea, the idea, that three decades ago some people put this in a cask and wheeled it into a warehouse on a mountain and it just sat there quietly and then you get to taste it and with a single malt

like on like a blend which is often like hundreds of whiskeys poured together to make a blend a single malt is just the product of that decillery at that time in that place you are such a romantic James I feel like I mean I deflect because I have like loads of issues

with intimacy and things like that and as I've said relationships. It was I think my ability to deflect romance onto something else like a whiskey or a moment in our political history. I love all that. But I'm sure it's because I do less in my personal life and then... Well, I would love to drink whiskey with you. That would be great. And maybe just get quite drunk as well. Yeah, yeah. Oh, we're not spying it out. No, no, no, no. We're having snacks with that. Well, the purists would say no. You can't, you can't tape the whiskey. Do you have ice?

No, no, no, no. There's no shame. I don't know why I did that. I like a little of water. Well. Oh, God. Is this good or bad? So what's amazing about that is, I just lost my day. No, no, you're, you're bang on. So the misconception about water and whiskeys, it dilutes it.

It doesn't. This is really romantic. It makes it know itself more. Oh, stop. I love it. Just by it with a little encouragement, it opens itself up and it's the best version of itself. Just like, oh, James Graham with the tasting. Just like what Gareth Southgate did to the England football team.

Oh my God. That was profound and poetic and beautiful. And I feel like we could finish on that, but we still got some more questions. That's right. I need to sort this. So I've made something called a Lisbon chocolate cake, and I don't know why it's called that.

Are you sure it's not from Lisboa, Nuno Mendes' cookbook? I don't think so. It sounded like a Jewish man that have made it first, but he'd been to Lisbon. Okay. So it's basically a cake with chocolate mousse on the top. Have you gone to Lisbon for one of your friend's getterways?

It's so good. I've never done Portugal at all. Oh my God. Of course. Are you, would you like some? Of course it would. Slither. Slither, less.

Yeah. Thank you. Pussy. What did I talk about my food trauma? Yeah, wow, Mom. Don't food shame. That's big, but I'm no excited. Is that big?

Oh, shut up. All right. Yes, Mom. Do you want some, Mom, I want half of that because I'm going after dinner about two hours. Thank you. That looks amazing, Mom. Look at that, half and half.

Really beautiful. Let's see. Let's see. Who knows? She's good. She's good. There we go. Thank you.

All right. Come on, James. Do the taste test. Okay. No pressure. Let's do the Master Chef bite. Yeah. I've never made it before.

What do you think? Because I'm not going on. It's melting. Oh. Moist. It's moist. Deep. It's confident.

It knows itself. It's not shy. Shush. That's really good. Oh God, beautiful. That is good, Mum. I like it. Mm-hmm.

It knows itself. The powder on the top gives that lovely texture. Oh, Mom. I think that's a winner. But was it a laugh? Yeah. Okay. Just so you know, enjoy every mouth or joke.

It was a fuff, but not a terrible fuff. Before we let you go. Yes, thank you for my pudding. It's a pleasure. What is a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere? happy um definitely not a Polish soup

um I would well can it be liquid does that to be food like like whiskey taste yeah whiskey just puts me in a rich one

um I would say like an aisle of whiskey like a PT one so you've got things like like a Vulinna Freud um it makes me think of my family makes me a thing of my dad

he was a big whiskey drinker and still is um and I enjoy those moments of having it with him as a of age young man and talking about the world. Most of think of Scotland and I'm like my first ever play was at the Edinburgh Festival and I still to this day my tradition is at the beginning of every first play,

first preview, the first night I'll sit in the back with a whiskey and so it's not really a treat because I have it like every day but it does do a memory thing. Do you always have one before you go to bed? No. No, I just do cats. No, but I do, I always have one on the Vipers preview of a play. Thanks for being on the podcast. You've been amazing.

I really love speaking, thank you. Thank you for coming to see my plays. I don't take that for granted. No, I see everything. Thank you. I love James Graham so much. I mean, he's the most modest person I think I've ever met. The humility of the man.

He's so talented. Yeah. And like the romance of like, we've never had somebody give a tasting menu. He was the same. most unlikely person to give a tasting menu as well. But also he was romantic about the whole setting and how he would eat it and the rhythm of it and everything. Mum, I gave him my number. I said we're going whiskey tasting.

Good. I thrust it in his hat. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. James Graham, what a star, modest star and brilliant man and just writing incredible pieces of theatre and stories for us to all devour. Dear England is on BBC and you're going to love it. It's our story of the England football team

and Gariff Southgate being such an absolute genius. An agent. And a gent. Dear England starts on BBC on the 24th of May and you all have to watch it. Even if you saw the play, which loads of you did. And I defy you to not have sweet Caroline in your head forever more. Thank you James for coming on. I thought the recipes were really good today.

such an easy salad to do even for Otolengi standards. Yotemotelengi and Sammy Tamimi's Jerusalem cookbook, still brilliant and it's this grilled chicken salad that we've never done before. And then the cauliflower one was lovely too. I do feel like I've got herbs everywhere

in every nook. I was trying to move them around with my tongue. Me too. Yeah, but it wasn't very successful. I really needed a toothpick. Your chocolate moose was great. It wasn't chocolate moose, it was Lisbon chocolate cake. Okay, it was a chocolate cake.

Okay, fine. Thank you, James, for the wine. My cheeks are flushed, and we'll see you next week.