Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - Kae Tempest

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

This week we have the excellent Kae Tempest joining us for lunch! Kae came by to talk about his beautiful new novel Having Spent a Life Seeking. Over lunch, we covered everything from growing up in Lewisham in a big blended family, to music, poetry and the writing process. We also chatted about cooking scallop spaghetti for his girlfriend and giving up sugar, cigarettes and alcohol for Lent. Kae, we loved having you over; a fantastic guest and an enriching, gorgeous afternoon. Kae’s book is available to pre-order now, out April 30th.Listen & watch Table Manners here - https://tablemanners.komi.io/Follow Table Manners on:Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tablemannerspodcast/TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@tablemannerspodcastFacebook - https://www.facebook.com/tablemannerspodcastYouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@TableMannersPodcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Jessie's new album, Superbloom, is available to pre-order now. There's a 10% discount if you go to her store, jessieware.com, and put in Tablemanners. James Norton's not included. Teas and C's applies. Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with Lenny. And we've just had a barney. Yeah, you've just shouted at me.

Should we tell her why I just shouted? You shout at me first. I didn't make dessert and you said you were making dessert. And I said I didn't know I was making it. And you said you were making it. You did. But we never discussed what I was making. So I didn't feel it.

I manifested the dessert. What happened was that we shouted at each other. I maybe slightly brought at the moment. I'm quite tired. And I felt it. Well, I felt it too, Lenny. Okay. Anyway, it's not the best to start to a dinner date that I'm very very.

excited about. We have the marvelous Kai Tempest coming on. Multi-terated. I mean, like, what do you say? Playwright, poet, lyricist, novelist, writer, I mean, everything, just incredibly gifted person. He's coming on to talk about his new book, having spent life-seeking. It's his second novel, 10 years on from his, I think, best-selling first novel. Yeah, Sunday Time's Best Seller. Really beautiful. And it's about

this character called Rothko who comes out of prison and has to confront a lot of things of what they left behind and the characters are absolutely amazing and I loved listening to it on the audiobook. There's one bit of prose that is just insane that Kai reads and says

so we're really excited to have him on and talk about well he's also up through neither this week. Yeah. Yeah, that was like so yeah he's having a good week. I have time in between all this warrants. I know. So I'm on food duty today and I've made an Easter Belfridge Instagram recipe that she put up last weekend, which is kind of a coconut tomato base that you whizz up in a blender.

It's got turmeric, garlic, cherry tomatoes, curry powder, paprika, honey, coconut oil and coconut milk. And you just whizz it all up. It's so easy. Put them all in. cook it for a bit to reduce it and then you plop in some eggs. And then I've done with that her sticky coconut rice cake that I think I made for Amanda Holden, Narnan Carr, and then a really nice maple, lime, sesame, baby gem lettuce salad.

And then we've got a big giant cookie that's going in the oven. That actually looks really good. So Kai Tempice coming up on Tableman. Kai Tempice. Hi. Hi. It has been so long since I've seen. seen you. Yeah. And I'm so thrilled for all your success. And thank you for being here. This was

quite a nice, easy. This is so nice to be here. It's just amazing. What a beautiful place. And it feels so warm and it smells so delicious. I'm very happy to be sitting here talking to you to. How are you? Oh, good. I'm good. Thank you. How are you? I'm all right. Mum and I, I'll just clear it out now and then it's done. Let's just get it done. Okay. Mum, by the way, I think you look very nice in your daffodil spring lemon. Okay. She won't even look at me. Look. Okay, let's just explain what's just happened why there's a bit of frost. Jessie thought I was making dessert. Yeah. I didn't think I was making dessert because no one had said to me, what are you making? But this is where it gets a bit complicated because I did say. Right. She said she did. But what, what did you think I was

making? Anyway, what happened was she didn't bring one? And I said, okay, we don't have anything. What are we going to do? And instead of just saying, sorry, babe, you said, I did it. Anyway, so we had this. Anyway, I did. And then you come in and you go, don't worry, I've given up. I've given up sugar. For Lenn. Yeah. But I've just made a giant cookie and a skillet. So I think, I mean, that's amazing. But I don't want to make you, you know, renege on your goals. No, but I'm really glad that you've made a giant cookie. And my, well, well, my girlfriend is like, absolutely like cookies are her thing. Oh, so should we give some for you to take home?

If I could take some home. Yeah, that's absolutely fine. Thank you. That satisfies me. And then I can appreciate it and almost get this. In fact, get more satisfaction out of watching her enjoy it than I would. Do I mean? Really?

Does that work like that? Yeah. Well, it's so far it has. So no chocolate since Pancake Day. Yeah. Wow. Or cigarettes. But it's actually hard to giving up sugar.

Why have you done this to yourself? It's a funny thing to talk about, but I felt like I needed, I need to ask the universe, the divine, for a lot of strength at the moment. And I thought, I can't ask for something without sacrificing something. And I was having this moment in Stammer Park in Brighton with a friend. We were just having this really beautiful moment. And I realized that it was pancake day. And I was like, I need to do something. I need to make a change.

and I realised it was lent so there's this kind of structure in place that supports keeping track of the days because there's this thing you can look up when did I start this pancake day so you can look that up anyway so I just decided to make this just to make this movement towards

rebalancing something and asking for a bit more focus and grounding I just think it's important to give in the same manner as you wish to receive you know I think that's really beautiful and I just want to know Are you needing strength because you're bringing out a book or is it something?

Is it about work related or is it a bit, is it a meshed in lots of different things? Yeah, it's like this moment. It can be quite a challenging moment and yeah, and also life stuff and just, you know, you end up getting yourself into places where you're like, hang on, I need to just refocus and just find a bit more of myself in all this. And I think like sometimes I can fall into patterns of,

of drinking lots or eating loads of cookies or swacking lots of bags. And then you kind of, the distractions are useful, but actually what I'm more interested in is just be able to cope from our own resources. When you're touring and things like that, the thing about alcohol or sugar or things like that, they're very much a part of how you deal with everything in the day.

It's not like in another job. You wouldn't just like casually everyone be drinking at work or maybe they would at some jobs, But in music, it's kind of, it's everywhere all day. And then you might have loads of adrenaline after a show and then you could be drinking because you're in celebration mode. But then the next day you're hanging. And then you're like, well, I need to have a drink now

because otherwise the show tonight won't be very good. And you can end up on this cycle of not being very present. And this is something I want to be present and well and healthy for because you're going out in front of people and asking them to come and spend their money and give their time to be in a room with you. So I want to be in my best. I just want to be closest to the source as I can be.

And I'm a bit all or nothing. And sometimes I need something like, I need the structure of it. Otherwise I can't make the decision, you know. Have you started touring or are you about to? I've been touring. Whilst being on this 40 days. Well, the last tour stop, but now I've just been on tour last week for a book. The different thing that we're going to discuss.

Yeah. By the way, congratulations. We have the book, but I'm so glad that I got to listen to it in the audio book form. That's really nice. Particularly, I think it's Chapter 11 in the old days. Is it chapter 11? Yeah, that is exactly what it is. It's so powerful.

I mean, all of it is, but that is a particularly, I'm so glad that I got to listen to that with the music and the poetry. It is. Congratulations, it's really excellent. And I don't want to give anything away. but I was so relieved for kind of the redemption at the end because you enter, we enter this story of Rothko who's come out of prison. And it was hard, it was brutal, it was sad.

And then slowly, slowly you learn about, and there's love in there. There's so much love in there. But it reminded me, and I've read a couple of the Douglas Stewart books, Shuggy, Bain and young munger and there was like this very much and I don't know if that's a compliment to you. No, a huge compliment. Okay, good.

Because the kind of chaos and confusion in a kind of mother's relationship with their child and stuff like that, I think that you put that across so beautifully. Where did Rothko come from? The name. Well, it's so interesting when you go, when you try and think your way back to where an idea begins. but I thought it just came to me because it's something Meg said, who's Rothko's mum.

When you're working on characters, you spend a lot of time with them. At first, you're telling them what to do, say, think, and then once you know them well enough and you've given them enough of your time, there's this kind of sweet spot when they start to just speak and you become an eavesdropper or something.

You're kind of listening to them talk to each other. And then it's like, oh, yeah, Meg just kind of said to Rothko, oh, you're always going red as a Rothko. You know, it's about the fact that they're always blushing, I knew that I wanted their name to reflect this kind of state of shame, this chronic shame that they carry around. But then if I go back even further than that, I was staying at a friend's house.

When I was trying to start writing, I knew I wanted to find this character. It was really early stages. My friend has this place and he let me stay there. And then I went back like two years later. I'd forgotten that I'd been, I'd kind of forgotten that I'd been in that room or anything. And I was staying in the same room and I woke up in the morning and I saw he's got this big poster at the end of the bed

and it's like a list of all these artists that had done an exhibition and it was like the top name in Big Headline was rough going. So then at some point it's got into my mind's ear you know and then it's you don't really know how you filter and translate everything you look at, feel, experience it's kind of imagination experience

and I don't know, memory and it all kind of gets filtered through the lens of your imagination and your craft and suddenly out it comes and now it's as if that's just their name it's always been their name. You do write beautifully. I mean, it's very evocative.

I agree with Jessie. Listening to the audio book was very powerful. I mean, we all read, but I loved hearing your voice. But you also, you perform it so well. And that's, you know, part of your craft is this is, you know, how you do it. Also, you act so, like, have you done acting? No, I haven't.

done acting. Would you ever? Because I mean you've done play, you've re-plays, I'm really interested in the crossovers between actors and how they approach the performance space and what I know as a musician or as a lyricist and I go out there. I know a lot about the stage and what it does, but I don't, I've never been trained in the way actors are trained about how to embody character

and how to be as inquisitive as actors are about who the characters they're playing are. like the best readers I've found of anything are actors because an actor will read a few lines of text and they go so deeply into what that might mean who that character is. It's really something, you know, it's something... I don't think an actor could have read that story like you did.

No. To be honest. It's nice to hear, really. It is remarkable, Kai. Like it's... Yeah. Not only, of course, you are a phenomenal poet and celebrated, but it wasn't just that chapter 11, by the way,

it's the way the conversations between, you know, Dion and Rothko or how you can change from that, which has kind of banter and flirting and like intense passion to then Ezra, Rothko's father, who I'm really interested by, and it has acknowledgement of like Judaism because Ezra's a practicing Jew. I'm really interested because I know that you're of Jewish,

descent. Yeah. Which bit? My dad's, my dad's side. Okay. But so I'm not really. I wasn't, I wasn't baked in a Jewish oven as that's right. And were you brought up with any Jewish kind of connections?

Well, my grandparents, yeah, my grandparents were like when I would go to my grandmother's house, my nan's house, it's, it's more a kind of cultural thing. Her home just, there was always so many people there. It's one of my first memories is being on like a Rosh Hashanah or a part. over or something. Sitting around the table. But I remember being so, being under the table, being so young, you know, when you're crawling under the table and just all of the feet, I remember just, I just,

and the sound of everybody talking and everyone talking. Everyone talking and everyone's smoking fags and eating, eating loads of food and like, just lovely flamboyant people. Like, it was so long ago. And then when she died, it was much harder to get the whole family together because, like, she was the kind of linchpin of it all. But so my, and I remember them trying to do the store, you know, stories of like why on this night do we yeah and I just remember that every no one was even

listening and then they would do the prayers and like people didn't have the right little hats on so they would just use like a napkin yeah napkin yeah and I just for me I associate it with beautiful something beautiful like I think for my dad who was brought up like his parents were pretty orthodox they were they were like you mom and he didn't resonate so much with it because it was that was kind of, yeah, forced on him. And I think for lots of people that are brought up religious, they don't have, I have this relationship with religion where, with all the religions where I find them beautiful and intriguing

and how wonderful that we have these rituals in place that go back a long time that can help us deal with the practices of life and living and approaching the world beyond, which is very present with us. Are you formerly religious? No. I mean, would you go to church or... I would walk into a church and I would be very moved and I would burst into tears. Were your family religious? Did they go to church?

No. No, but I have this relationship with the old stories. And I don't think of the religious stories as literal. I just find them very useful myths. And I've always been interested in the mythic landscape. You did something with mythology, didn't you? Sorry, remind me. Yeah, it was called Brand New Ancients. It was a long time ago.

And it was a story just kind of set in this moment, but using old stories as a framework to kind of hang these contemporary stories on this very ancient mode. And also it was a long poem that I delivered. So it kind of had this epic, very old feeling. People, you know, used to memorize hours and hours and hours of text and they would go around telling their stories. And in other cultures, they still do it.

In West Africa, the Greeks are still kind of going, around with hours of, like, memorized poetry. So I was kind of trying to root myself in a tradition that's very ancient by standing on stage and just going. You were quite young when you started writing poetry. Yeah, well, I didn't think I was writing poetry. You're writing lyrics, yeah. It was music that got me.

So was that when you were at the Brits? Yeah, well, just before. I went to the Brits school at like 16. it was a B-tech type, sorry like that bit. So you'd left Thomas Tallas by then? Yeah. And you decided refusing to go to school? Yeah, I wasn't going to school for the last couple of years of it.

Can I ask is that because do you have ADHD? Yeah. But was it to do with how you were learning or was it to do about kind of social? Was it to do with your, struggling with your identity? Do you know why you started refusing? It's interesting, isn't it, to look back as adults, at the children we were and try and give them the sensibility that we have. The kid that I was didn't know what was going on.

And they weren't very well. I wasn't very well back then. I was dealing with things that I didn't know how to deal with. And I found school a really difficult place to be. But I was very inspired at that time. by the things that were, that meant a lot to me, like music, like fiction, reading novels, like my friends, that these connections were powerful and important. And what was happening at school or at home, it just, it wasn't, there was beauty.

There was a lot of beauty in the world, but it wasn't there. So, like, I just wasn't, I didn't go there. But then I found out about the Brits school, I went with my friend and his mum to this open day. And then I was just like, what do you mean all these people can just, think about the thing they love all day. I couldn't believe it. And I got in there, I did my audition. I was playing, like, Spanish guitar.

Can you play guitar? I haven't played for years. I stopped playing. I think this is actually interesting. You know, as somebody kind of socialised female, my experiences as a musician, when I was in a room of, like, people kind of assigned male, was that I didn't want to assert myself

because I always thought they were better than me or I didn't want to, you know, there's just something that you learn about not wanting to, upset the kind of... It's like, I think hopefully it's changed now, but even there at a Brit school where everyone's a musician, it was like there was something about it where I knew that when I fell towards my true passion,

which was words and lyrics, there was nothing going to stop me there. Like, nobody was going to be better than me there. So then I was able to kind of flourish and thrive but yeah I didn't I put the guitar down pretty quickly once I realised I remember very very clearly I was singing with a guy called subtract and we were at Brighton

the Brighton dome is it called yeah and you were I probably with sound of rum at that point bless you for remembering that that is so I remember you because you were so memorable you had your long hair and you were so strong on that stage and I think I was with because we had the connection of Laura Dockerel Yeah, Docker's MC. Yeah, Docker's MC.

And I think there was that connection because you went to Brett together. I think you were maybe older than Laura or the same year maybe, I'm not sure. But anyway, I just remember you. And I remember, you know, I had experienced Laura Dockrell, who is so brilliant

and was doing the spoken word thing and I thought it was just the bravest thing I'd ever seen, like go up and say a poem. Like, I'd only seen that on like Moesha. Wow, what, braver than singing? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Why? I don't know, because, like, like, you're more laid bare, I feel like. You don't have like the music behind you. Interesting. And you're like there and there's no escaping it with like, I guess I feel like you can have the distraction of a melody with it. I don't know.

But I just remember you. And I remember, it must have been, I probably was about 20. You're probably like 25 maybe. Well, if it was sound or wrong, I would have been a bit younger than that. Or maybe you were there as your own artist. I can't remember. But I just remember you and I remember just thinking like you were a total powerhouse. And I was so impressed by your confidence and like determination on stage.

It was really amazing. It's interesting to think back. And, you know, I think often that if I had to do those things now, I wouldn't have the, I wouldn't be able to. It's because of every day that I did all those things that I'm able to be. Do you ever feel like that? It's like I was so driven to be close to lyricism and music. It was so important to me. It was so loud in my head.

I needed to get these words out, you know, and I would do often like two or three gigs a night sometimes just going from pub to pub to pub to pub. And I'd stand outside and I'd be rapping on a bench to whoever would listen and all this stuff. I think about it now. I think I would never go up to a group of strangers getting on with their evening at a bus stop

and be like, yo, like check out my bars, you know. But there's something about I have such a debt of gratitude to the person I've been, the child I was, the adolescent I was, you know, like the young adult I was, because of all of that, like, just kind of inability to switch it off, I'm able to get to this point where I can live for my ideas. My ideas are given value by other people, which is something that's extremely important.

And I think about the people in my life that don't have access to their creativity, that don't have an outlet for the things that they feel as artists, we're able to process through this stuff that we make. And it's like the novel. When I was writing it, I had a kind of couple of slogans up on the studio wall. And one of them is write what you can't bear to admit, which is something a quote said to me by Ian Rixon, a theatre director dear friend of mine.

He said, Ted Hugh said that, but I don't know. I've never been able to find where Ted He said it. But this thing about write what you can't bear to admit, you know, go into the wound and from it create. and this transformative, powerful alchemy that you're party to and that you're kind of guided by, it means that you can really be in this life, you know, whereas if I hadn't done all of that, gone on stage, you know,

put myself through everything I was putting myself through to just get myself there, I wouldn't have developed this foundational knowledge with language and lyricism, you know, it gave me, it was my training, it was really, really it was my training. You know. Who are your biggest influences, would you say, growing up about words, really, and lyrics? Well, what were you listening to? I'm just going to be sorting out for this.

Yeah. Yeah. What were you listening to? Well, I listened to, this is actually true. I would listen to anything. Yeah. And be really blown away by how it got made. Or I could listen to something that I didn't enjoy taste-wise, but be fascinated by what they would do in,

how they were doing it. What about it wasn't reaching me. Okay. I had a job at a record shop. Yeah. Which one was it? It was called Morp's Music. It was in Lewisham Model Market. You know, Lewisham Market around the back?

I think now it's probably a cocktail bar. But back in the day, it was like a, it was a market. And there was like a... Yeah, I remember. They sold like gold and jewelry. They'll be somewhere selling patties. And then there was a record shop. And I worked in there.

So what were you listening to? Well, the shop that they put me in was... It was like dancehall, R&B and hip-hop. And I loved hip-hop, but I didn't know anything about R&B. Okay. And it wasn't my taste, but I learned. And I didn't know anything about dance-hall. But what happened was I got to stand in this record store

and watch people come in and talk to each other about this music that I didn't know anything about. And you know what it's like when you hear somebody talking about how much they love something, it's like a way in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're introduced to the world of it. through looking at somebody that looks like a really interesting person and they want to listen to this record that you've never even heard of.

Yeah. So it gave me this like way in to music that I wasn't initially moved by. Well, I imagine in Lewisham, the back of Lucia Market, would be dancehall and R&B and hip-hop. Yeah. Yeah, it was like the, there was that shop and then there was like a drum and bass kind of vinyl shop and then there was like the rock punk shop down the other end.

All right. But I was just obsessed with music. It was the lyrics and the performance, the delivery of lyrics that got me. So who did you admire like watching? At that time, I was listening to a lot of kind of East Coast like Golden Era. Explain that to Mark. Okay, I have no idea. You know West Coast and East Coast?

No. Rap. Like, New York, J-Z, East Coast. West Coast. New York or L.A. had different sounds. Oh, okay. And the rappers had different. Well, on the different sides of that vast land, the complexities and the sounds within what the rappers from different places were doing.

Does that reflect their experiences in life, do you think? Well, you could think about... East Coast would be different. New York. Well, our accents are shaped by the geography of where we grow up. So people that live in very hilly places tend to have a more up and down melodic flow. You're kidding. No, of course. And also people that live in very flat places, it's the...

The kind of musicality of language is often to do with what is happening to sound around us. How interesting. So if you think about LA and New York, two very different. Yeah. The designs of those cities are very different. And also the sounds coming out of how people are making. And that impacts on the sound that you make. But also what was available to people tech-wise and how people were using their samples

and what was happening. Like what's going on? What's the scene? What's the next door neighbor making? So the LA sound was much more kind of bright and sunshiny And the rap's tended to be more aspirational Or kind of a bit more kind of Yeah, bright

There was a bright a light coming like a spotlight on them So who's a famous New York rapper I'd know? Well, for me at the time I was listening to Mostef Or Yassim Bay is known as now, he's from Brooklyn But maybe And you probably would have heard his songs but maybe somebody more famous would be like notorious B-I-G or something, you know. Yeah.

Do you know Biggie? I've heard of Biggie, yeah. Yes. And where was Jayzie? He was on the other side. No, he was East. And then somebody like Snoop Dog or Tupac or something. Have you ever done a program about this?

No. This needs to be told this story. I think it's so fascinating. Actually, the whole thing about language and sound and I don't, I knew nothing. thing about that. I didn't know that hills would make you have been more lyrical than up and down in the way you presented it. But if you think about like within, even within the UK, the more like hilly regions, the more mountainous regions, if you think about like the Welsh accent, how melodic it is. Yeah, yeah, you're right. And like how beautifully it reflects the

Yeah. Yeah. And Ireland. Yeah. The hill. Yeah. So everyone in Holland must be very talking a very flat way. I don't think I've heard enough Dutch to know that accent. Well, let's talk about like Oxfordshire or Gloucestershire. They speak like that. Soft, soft and flat, you know, like. I love this. We haven't asked anything about food yet. So, broccoli.

Yeah. Not many hills in broccoli. Helly fields. Helly fields. Of course, there you go. Yeah. I don't know how immediate the effect of the landscape is. I wonder if you have to be in a place for a few generations.

You have to live it. Well, for sure. Different sides of the city produced different accents. I think it's fascinating. I was in West London yesterday. I was at a recording studio and even just being around on the street, I was like, wow, it sounds different. Like the West London, I was in Labbrook Grove and it sounds different to Luson. South London.

Yeah. Or even it even looks different. I felt like I was on holiday. So you grew up in Broccoli? In Lewisham, but kind of, yeah. Lewisham. Who was around the dinner table when you were growing up? Did you have formal dinners?

I mean, we have a fairly complicated family. There's lots of us, but we're not always in the same place at the same time. So I have, I'm one of five siblings, but we're not all the same mum and dad. Okay. When it was all five of us and my mum and dad, I remember that being just that would be the best times. You know, like that. And we would, yeah, we'd all sit around. dinner table for sure yeah where were you in the I'm the youngest okay but then when

they weren't there then it's like you've lost half you know you feel like you kind of so were you the youngest and the other four were from a different marriage it's me and my next one up yeah from my mum and dad and then they all both had different okay kids from before so it's a real blended family that's what they call it yeah they call it now yeah what was a memorable dish yeah my dad's a really good cook when he was cooking, he'd be in there for hours and hours and hours. And he would have, he would do amazing things, actually. I remember one time, like, with a salmon, like a big, like a big fish, like with the scales

on and everything and everything and everything like that. Wow. I think it was a salmon. It was like something like that. That would have been a real special occasion, like, when, like, lots of family would have been there. Or he would do, you know, like a, he liked, like, heavy, like, roast meat, you know, like beef or lamb or something like that and all the trimmings.

Did you eat together most? nights? Not so much back then but no, not really but now we get together for food and it's a big part of how we like to hang out. So when's your next getting together will it be over Easter? Well everyone's like in different places and it's hard but I think it's my dad's birthday actually tomorrow. Tomorrow? Yeah, happy birthday night but the what have you bought him? I just sent him a cake in the post actually this morning

a cake in the post so I didn't even know you can do that. Yeah yeah yeah A nice one. Pistachio and raspberry or something. Real nice. Oh, that sounds good. Which? Which? They're called cutter and squidge.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've heard of them. I looked up next day delivery cake. And then I was like, wow, these are like, these are good cakes. Yeah. He's going to go over the moon.

But food is a big part of how we hang out, for sure. Do you cook? Yeah, I love cooking. And I love being cooked for, and I love to eat. What's your best dish that you cook? My favourite thing to make. My favourite thing to make. is to just come home, see what we've got.

Oh, you see. And then if there's like, there's half a corsette left, there's a, I don't know, we've got a tin of kidney beans. What's that? Oh, there's some old half a thing left in the cupboard, some olives, and just to make something. And then it makes me so happy. Does it?

It's just use up. I love doing it use up. This is because you're a creative person and I clearly am not. I love it so much. I can't do it. Because actually I need the parameters. If I think what shall I make? Although I tell you something amazing that I made the other day,

I'd finally finished touring and all this stuff. And I had a meeting in town and then suddenly I had free time. And I went to Borough Market because my meeting was on the bridge. And I went to the fishwangers. Yeah. I bought scallops for the first time in my life. And I looked at... You looked it up?

I looked up like how to cook there. Minimal cooking. Really? And I made a scallop. like spaghetti with scallops and like lemon and parsley, just very simple. It was delicious for my girlfriend. Put the tablecloth on the table, candles, everything.

And I made these like goats cheese wrapped in, like grilled cauxettes wrapped up the goat cheese. It was so special and exciting. Wow, but no dessert this. Yeah, I did make a dessert. Oh, you did? This was before I gave up the sugar. Okay, all right, fine.

I made, she loves the chocolate, you know, melting in the middle chocolate. Yeah. Does she call? Yeah, she cooks, yeah, she cooks. But she's more like, I think, how you are. Yeah. Where she needs a recipe, you need to think about it. She used to go out, get all the bits.

Yeah. I thought that this, this, table manners, I thought that I would have to cook for you. Did you? Yeah. I was like, I'm going to cook for Jesse and Annie. Oh, well, we would have done that. And then, but then I'm glad that I didn't have to. And then we wouldn't have had a row.

I was thinking, oh, right, okay, okay, well, I've got to, think, I've got to cook, got to cook for people. Oh, no, we cook for you. I'm really glad. are you going to cook for us then when you thought you were cooking for us kai well that didn't get that far well no that day i just made for family actually they'd all come around and i'd made from scratch chicken kievs bloody how chicken keiv you know with the garlic butter inside i haven't had chicken kiev in so long how beautiful it's come back it's come nobody nobody could

not like it unless you don't eat meat or gluten or dairy it was incredible how did you make sure that butter stayed in the middle and didn't see power. So you just, you cut like a kind of like crescent shape around. You fill it, you fill it, and you seal it. How did you seal it with two picks? No, I just sealed it just with my fingers. And then because you do the, you know, the egg wash and the diping, the flour and then the breadcrumbs. Yeah.

And by the time that's all happened, you got like a, and they were absolutely matching. Were they delicious? Amazing. Very garlicky. Yeah, because the only time I've ever had them is, You know, oven from the oven from the supermarket. So it was like, the whole process of it felt like... What did you serve with it?

Some like greens, some peas and some... And a potato salad. Oh, lovely. And we... It was lovely. It was amazing. Fantastic. Okay, so we have Easter Belfridge. Do you know Easter Belford?

She's the most amazing chef. She was one of the... She used to work with Otolengi and the Teskut. and she did a cookbook with him. She's got two cookbooks out, Fuziah and Meskla, and always her recipes work. And I saw this on Instagram. She'd made it last weekend for brunch,

and I just thought it looked really good. It's a kind of tomato-y coconut milk, Scotchbonnet. She kind of like a shocker. But I'm a bit worried the eggs may be slightly overdone, but sorry, sue me. That's how I like them. Okay, great.

And then we've got sticky coconut rice. Oh, my gosh. That's been baked. And then we've got like a nice, sesty salad. and then some sour dough that's Jessie's made well done incredible work

congratulations so I'm just going to put some on your plate yeah yeah please be yeah two eggs yeah I came hungry okay good it's the right thing to do when you're going to

eat a meal cooked for you by someone of your skill and then there's some like little limey onions but there's also other I mean you know I hope your girlfriend doesn't mind snogging you with onion breath later

no I think she'll be happy with that okay fine well give of the cooking. Do you live together? We do. How did you meet? We met at a barbecue, a friend's barbecue that neither of us wanted to go to. We'd both been going through some pretty heavy stuff in our lives. We did not want to go. And we went and we met and, uh, thank you. We, we, then after we met, a friend of mine said, this lovely girl wants you to have her number. And a friend of hers said, Kai wants your number. But neither of us had said that to each other. but then I was like oh well

she oh my gosh she's in like she wants me to have a number so we went on a date but neither of us had said that oh my god why because you were kind of too sure to I just I thought she was like totally out of my league I didn't think there was any you know and then we went on this date

well let me hold it no you go ahead now yeah okay do you need any of the extra bit then then we went on this date and we just walked around all night suddenly it was five in the morning we were having pot of tea and pancakes in an all night diner and we hadn't stopped talking. The next day I had to go away for work,

and I just couldn't wait to talk to her again. We just had just been talking all night. I just couldn't wait to talk to her again. And that was like just under a year ago. So it's been, you know, it's like came out of nowhere, did not want to be in love with anybody. And then there she was. Do you think you might get married?

I think we're already married the way it's going. Yeah, she's wonderful. Her name's Grace. There you go. Does it feel very different, putting a record out, to putting a book out? Yeah. The thing about a novel is,

for one thing, it's just a, it's a bigger undertaking. It's also much less collaborative, like when you're down there. You're alone with these characters. Music is, you're doing it with people, that you're somewhere on every step of the journey, there's a kind of, you know, you're doing it. it together. But with a novel, it's so much more, you're kind of with, you're in this imaginary

world that you have to build from scratch and it has to be as real as this world is. And so by the time you get to putting it out, you've already done, like with an album, putting out the album is the beginning of the live life of the album. But with a novel, the novel being released is the end of my time with it. It's like actually the beginning of the life of these characters out there. So you're handing it over to the world. Which is beautiful, but not with an album, you finish it, and then it has this life, where you bring it to life on stage,

yeah. So the putting it out is also linked to the fact that it's going to live in a different way soon. But with the novel, it's like, yeah, it's a different. So are you sad about that? Are you ready to let go of these characters? I feel so close to them. I love them so much. The thing that I feel is I'm the, I, I, I,

worry about how they will be treated in the world because I love them so much. That's my feeling. I'm like, I hope they're all right, you know, but I don't feel any sadness. I feel gratitude for having got through something that for me was as major as writing this novel and as much as I'm somebody who loves to write and lives for it, the undertaking of something like a novel is, it's a big labour and you have to really put a lot into it or I do anyway, maybe other novelists. How long did it take you to write? I was writing. solidly for three years like solidly coming off stage and and then going into my studio i'd finish a tour and i would have two weeks to turn a some a draft around it was like i was doing i was doing

kind of like 15 hour days at my desk when i had to i was in the airport making a moving desk out of pulling up the suitcase handle and writing on the laptop as i went around i i was dreaming their dreams i was i didn't know which world was the real world that edgecliff the fictional town, the novel set or backstage at a festival in, do you like me, in Netherlands? You've had such success. Well, I mean, your recent record,

which, by the way, like the videos and you look so, the songs as well, like that, I mean, it's really powerful and it feels, like, slaps you in the face in kind of the best way possible. It was an amazing experience, like making this record and putting it out.

I've never found, things like videos enjoyable or easy or, but since transition, I feel amazing. Really? I felt the Juliette Lath, who was the producer of those videos, made it so that all of the people on the set were all queer. It was just like all queer and trans people. It just felt like the best day of my life. Everyone was just like, I didn't feel like awful or please don't look at me or I'm so

sorry that I'm so sorry. When you go into the like make up person's chair and before it was just like I'm so sorry that I you've done all this training and you're so good at makeup and hair and I'm just sitting here and I can't bear my own skin and I you know you're sitting there and you just feel awful you feel so bad for everybody because you can't do the thing that you're meant to do which is stand up and be yourself but then with these videos and this record I just the relief that I feel to be able to enjoy this thing that I adore doing is it's I feel so much gratitude for it amazing the whole experience has been amazing Do you feel you have a huge responsibility towards the trans community? No, no. But I do love my community. Yeah. I love them.

I want to be there for them. I love us. I'm here. But I think responsibility is kind of a heavy word. Yeah, it is like a burden. I wondered if it felt heavy. No, I just, I'm here. I'm here for us.

I love us. But it doesn't feel like it's just normal. This is just normal And in the same I wondered if you were asked to speak at things Like It's not a vase Yeah I mean if I get asked to do something

You will I'll go and do it Because it's important But at the same time Even though for example The characters in this novel Are you know There's a trans character in it

There's two trans characters in it You know But that's not the point of these characters No In the same way there's an addict in it but that's not the point of her that's just what she's going through like these are people and I really hope that

somewhere outside all the kind of heat that unfortunately gets projected onto the conversation of bodies and gender is this hopefully a realisation that this is just this is just people this is just people and

I wanted to write a novel hopefully that we'll speak to people who have direct lived experience that's in common with the characters but also that have nothing in common with these characters but can still feel themselves connected and seen by the book. Because I think about the times in my life when I've felt so empty or numb or devoid of connection

and I've found my way back to life through usually fiction, I'll be reading something or listening to an album and it brings me back into life. And usually it's nothing to do with who I am or where I'm from or the environment I'm in. It could be some book from the 40s written in New York or, you know, but something about the character, their journey, connects me more forcefully to my own. And that's the power, I think, if we're, if we tell stories, we have this very advanced bit of machinery at our disposal.

It's kind of an empathy machine, isn't it, a novel? It's like this thing that we plug into it and it will extend your empathic ability because you're going into, story. And as you're able to recognise things in your own self, that you might not have time, inclination, possibility to recognise because your life is too intense or busy, it also kind of broadens that bandwidth, I hope, to recognise in others the same universal selfhood

that we all carry around. Last supper. Yeah. Start a main per drink of choice? Chicken soup. Okay. Of course. You having it with lotion or matser balls?

Mattisables, yeah. I'll definitely make you some. Thank you so much. It would mean the world to me. It's like, honestly, it's like, it's something. That is my favourite food, to be honest. And I promise you my Matsuboles are like clouds. Yeah, I believe that.

I really believe that. Since my grandmother died, I haven't had her Matsuelsau soup, but my uncle makes a really good chicken soup. And actually, he bought, I threw a big party for my dad. My dad had a big birthday, and threw a big party in my house, and my uncle turned up with two big, like, Tupperware of chicken suit for me to put in a freezer. And then I went on tour, and I came back, and I'd kind of forgotten they were in there. There was nothing.

And you got them out. And I was ill, you know, you get ill when you come home, and it was there. My uncle's chicken soup, Uncle Roger, it was like, oh, it really does something. I've been in, like. It's good for the soul. It's so good. So I'd have that, maybe, yeah, I'd have that from a starter. What would I have for my main course?

I really like, like, oh, wait, actually, well, I really like fish, I was going to say. I love, like, because I don't cook it, when you go to a restaurant and you cook and you eat fish and it's, like, done in these amazing ways, and I always find that really delicious. But I went out for a roast the other day. Oh, yeah, I'd do this. I went out for a roast dinner the other day with some friends, and it was like an Italian family that owned the pub. It's in Greenwich. You should go there.

It's called the Prince of Greenwich. Okay. It's really nice. There's, like, stuff all over the walls. There's a jazz band playing. But in there, they do this. this like roast beef in bolognese sauce on potatoes with salad on a big plate. Wow.

And it's delicious? It's delicious. Oh, wow. That would, maybe my kids would have a roast if there was bolognaise in it. It was like, with the orchard pudding. No, it's just the roast beef. Do you have pasta with it? No, it's all with roast potatoes.

Oh. How unusual. It was like, like banging. Banging. The prince. The prince of Greenwich. Okay, I'm going. Yeah.

But that's what I'm. I say today on another day and make, I say something different. I said baked potato one day. So like, I mean, you can't go wrong. No, but now I'm like, wow, people really think, because I was like you can do like four different size, like four seasons, you know, in the quarters. And I thought that was quite good. However, now I'm like, I don't know if that would still be mine.

So I understand that this is your day today. Just today. Okay, so pudding. Have you got a sweet to? Yeah. Yes. Wildly. Yeah.

My favorite, like, pudding is sticky toffee pudding, right? It's got to be. But then what I really love is backlav. I love it And one On a birthday I was one of my birthdays And I was on tour

And everybody from the band I don't know where they got it from They got me a bacclavo Cake Like I have I dream about it I don't know where it came from I think it was like an Ead cake

That someone had made Like And it was like Backlavar Like sponge cake icing Oh I'd have that I think

Oh fabulous Or maybe I'd have a trio Of desserts Yes You've got your baked tables Yeah Do you drink? I do, yeah.

What do you like? I like a Campari spritz. I do, too. Rather than apparel? Yeah. Why? I like the bit of us. Yeah, me too.

Do you put a lot of orange in there or not? Yeah, I mean, if I haven't... I didn't even offer you a drink. Are you not drinking at the moment? Okay, fine. 40 days. I can't wait. Well done.

But then the thing is, I don't even want to go, it's actually nicer when you take the choice away from yourself. Rather than... If you can't, then you just can't. You get on with it. If you can, it's always nice. I don't mean when's it not nice. But I like drinking a really lovely pint of beer after a walk to a pub.

Yeah, preferably by the sea. Because you've earned it. I love it. And what crisps are you getting with that? I'm getting cheese and onion crisps. Me too. It's the best. Yeah.

Jesse likes salt and vinegar. And it's a, I think, I get that, but I just, it's not my, it's just not my party. It's too sharp. You come across as quite a reserved, person. So I'm so interested how you perform and how you gird yourself up to perform. Whether that's... Or am I

wrong? No, I think when I'm in a performance space it's the most authentic expression of being that I know. And all of the things that happen when you're in this world, they're not with you in that world. You know, you can go to the place which is

the true, for me, the true place. where the music comes from, where the lyrics come from, where the writing comes from, the connective place where you can suddenly disappear from being in a room in front of lots of people and actually be with them. Somehow there's an internal place that exists outside of the external place, which you can all access sometimes if the flow is right. I don't know how to explain it.

There's something that happens to me on stage that takes me away, but also brings me closer to who you are. Yeah. It's like an arrival as much as it is an escape. And I don't really know it anywhere else, but I know it very well in music and in writing and in lyricism. And I know it in collaboration with other people. I know what it feels like to go there with other players

or to go there with a crowd. And I know what it feels like to not get there and want to go there and not know why you're not going there tonight. You know, it's a... I have a lot of performances under my belt. I've been doing this for, you know, 20 years, more, 25 years, getting up and wrapping my head off. So I've done it in all kinds of different environments,

like drummer-based raves or big squat parties full of punk bands or poetry recitals in libraries or in very posh grand concert halls or like just in front of, you know, an audience of one in the recording studio when I was making the album before last. I did the whole album in one take to one person three times in a day to three different. generations. Like, you know, I think about this stuff really a lot about how who's listening affects the communication of what it is that you're delivering. So the way I feel about performance, I think about it more than I think about, like, how I actually communicate or what

conversations are like. You know, it's this very special place that gives me so much. So I, it also takes a lot out of us, as you know, like, it can be terrifying. You can feel like just before going on tour that you don't have it in you, how are you going to find it? You can be on the floor, useless. You can be a shell and suddenly you're on stage and you're mighty and you're fine, but the people that share your actual life are the ones that see the impact on me. I wondered about that. Is it different performing when you don't, when none of your family there or your mates are there? Do you find it impacts on your performance that it's better when it's completely anonymous situation or when you've got support?

or your dad's in the background. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had this amazing experience on the last tour where my sister's kids who are 12 and 10 now were kind of old enough to come and watch the gig. So I was every single thing that I was saying, I was speaking to them to these kids, you know. And they were up in the balcony up there and I could just, everything felt so incredible. incredibly important that I communicated not just what I was saying, but how I got to the place where I could say this and actually having them there illuminated that performance in a way that I've, all of the people I was on tour with were like, what just happened tonight? Like, where did that come from? And it came from speaking directly to somebody that I know I love. And I care about, I care about how it hits them. And also I'm trying, you know, I'm wondering how it feels for them to see me, like, see Uncle Kay up there, like in that mode.

Okay. So I feel if you're too aware of what somebody might be thinking, whether it's a family member or the audience, if you have an expectation of what their expectation is, then it becomes very difficult to get out of your head and get into the reality and get out of your own way. Sometimes I can be kind of paralysed by that sensation of like, oh, are they all right? Am I, you know, what do they want? I can have that feeling because there's like cross-audi. that come to see my stuff. So, like, the most kind of visual example of when that happens is, brand new ancients that we were talking about earlier was this long play that was published as a poem. And I was doing my kind of first ever American tour.

And these ladies had been reading it in their church reading group. And they'd come in a little minibus. They'd bought their own chairs. They were ladies of a certain age that needed to having their own chairs. And I was there touring my first record, which was like a heavy, electronic like rap album turned up in America like I'm gonna I'm gonna blow up everyone's gonna be there I'm gonna meet my heroes then we turn up in this town and we go out on stage and there's just these 10 very sweet ladies who've been reading my book in their church reading group with their

own chairs in a line and then at the back there's a few like music fans being like what is this what have I come to see and then I'm just like that you know I'm on stage with two drummers like a synth player and we're playing really nice. gnarly music, but these people were coming to see the poet from England who'd written about the classical mythology. So what I'm saying is there's, if I'm too aware of what people want, it can throw me off. So I've just got to go and do my thing. Did you meet them after? Yeah, I met them after, but I was like, did you, did you feel apologetic? Yeah. I was like, is it too loud from what? They're just sitting there just like, not in their heads.

It was there were very, do you think they enjoyed it? I've got no idea. I was like, I didn't enjoy it. I was just like, what I'm doing? matter. You know, like, I thought like, it just, it shattered the illusion of what it would mean to break it in America. I can tell you that. Okay. This is my niche, you know.

I love it. Before we let you go, can you give us a nostalgic taste that can transport you about somewhere? Yeah. I love mint chock chip ice cream. Yeah. And it makes me think about this, um, there was like an ice cream parlor on the seafront. I think it's still there in Brighton.

And I remember going there as kids, I just remember going to get a, you'd have to walk all the way, all the way up from like the pier or something, you'd have to walk and walk and walk and walk. It just felt like so long, but then when you got there, you could have ice cream. In a cone or a tub?

You know, always a cone. Okay. But now if I went there, I would be getting like salt with caramel or like, you know, one of these delicious. But at the time. Yeah, mint chock chip. But also the smell of chicken soup, I imagine.

And that kind of onion-y When you walk into the house And it's been cooking Do you put saffron in it? No, I don't. My dad put saffron Well, you see, I would do it for the colour But I'm not very keen on the taste of saffron

Because it's a bit medicinal. Yeah. Kai, thank you so much for doing this. You're so wonderful and talented and good luck with the beautiful novel that you've created in these amazing characters. I hope it finds its way to people. Thanks for giving me the time.

Kai Tempest, one of the most most beautiful, interesting, calming, thoughtful guests I think we've ever had. He's just a delight, a very kind, empathetic person who makes things come alive, really, when he talks. He made us not fall out again. Interesting, he was on Lent and didn't even want to dessert. I mean, that was a bit of a bummer, I'm not going to lie, when we had fallen out over the cookie. And then I burnt the cookies. So maybe that's calmically.

Yeah. There you go. Yeah. I've found... Moral of the tale, don't shout at your mom. Moral of the tale, make the pud.

Mm. Well, he wouldn't have eaten that, either. If I've made it. So there you go. Do we learn anything? No. Kai Tempest's book, Having Spent Life Seeking,

is out on the 30th of April. It's really beautiful, heartbreaking, raw. And yes, buy the book, but I would also say maybe listen to it on audiobook,

because he reads it so beautifully. What did you think of the dinner, Mum? It was delicious. It was really nice, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. Good brunch thing. Yeah, it's a very good brunch thing. He enjoyed it.

He enjoyed it. Yeah. He enjoyed it. And that salad was really yummy too. She's very clever. She's brilliant. Thanks for listening and watching. Please subscribe.

We'll see you next week for more table mum.