Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S11 Ep 21: Ed Miliband

Episode Date: June 2, 2021

This week we welcome the ex leader of the opposition, labour MP Ed Miliband. We talk about his refugee parents and his Polish mothers food, his love for Chinese food and his new passion, cold water swimming!He is candid about his times as leader of the Labour Party the challenges and some regrets. We chat about his book Go Big, he has seconds of Mum’s main and chuckles at her pudding, an Eton mess. Although Ed was such fun (and we could have talked for hours!), Mum lost all sense of her Table Manners and sadly Ed was allocated a strict 2 hour slot at Chez Ware…. Lennie had the United Europa final to watch!! He was a good sport about it, even when she booted him out onto the street at 8pm on the dot!!!An absolute pleasure to have you Ed, have a listen to his excellent podcast Reasons To Be Cheerful and go and get inspired by Go Big, out tomorrow! X Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I am knackered. How are you mum? Darling, why are you knackered? Because I'm eight months pregnant and I am promoting the hell out of myself for the next few weeks. I'm exhausted by myself. Well it would be very nice to speak to someone else tonight then, won't it? Who's promoting something. Well, it's a good day to have got him as well. Listen, what's happening today?

But yeah, so back to me for a second. I am on The One Show on Friday. Massive deal, Mum. I just love The One Show. Do you? If only your grandmother was a mum. Oh my God, my grandma would have loved it. She would have loved it.

So I'm on The One Show and we did these, because this is what you have to do when you're a pregnant person and also COVID times. We did three different recordings. No, four different performances all set up in different ways at the London Coliseum. Europe's largest stage.

It's the home of the English National Opera. Darling, I'm familiar with the Coliseum. You took me there, right? We've seen Madame Butterfly. The Mikado there? The Mikado. We've seen Carmen there. We've seen loads of... I love it.

It's amazing. They were so sweet and they let us do a filming day. And so the performance that you'll see on the one show, if you fancy tuning in, is from the Coliseum. So thank you so much to the Coliseum for letting us use it. Sarah always wanted you to be an opera singer. I know. Well, I somehow...

So you got to the Coliseum. Sorry, Mum. we're just recording um so yeah i mean it may not have been opera on there but i i sung a few tunes mum now what do you think about this you know we've had this discussion before about the free coffee at prep yeah i went into a prep no i don't know i i got a bit overexcited and then i felt like i flustered the woman and because the bloody barriers are up where we've got the perspex and the mask, I don't know whether she was offering me one or not. Okay. Okay, so what do you think about this? She said, I was buying some bits and bobs, and then she went,

do you want a coffee? And I said, oh, a coffee? No, darling, she was asking if you want coffee with your sandwich that's what I thought because I got really excited I went oh coffee thinking I'd like I got the golden ticket I freaking got my free coffee did you no so I of course she didn't she's asking you she's ticking off a list to sell I know I was a bit sad for a moment I thought I was gonna get one I think they say you're gonna get a free coffee this is on the house yeah yeah anyway know, I was a bit sad. For a moment I thought I was going to get one. I think they say you're going to get a free coffee. This is on the how. Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, I was that close. So today we have Oh, it's very exciting. Someone who is going big. In what sense of the word, Mum? He's going big in terms of his book's called Go Big.

It's about rethinking how we can change society and all your great ideas he wants you to enact does it say lenny for president no will you be discussing that as an appendix that i was omitted from his grand plan but um but it is about how to think about big ideas and feel energised to use them. OK, so the day that we are recording this, Dominic Cummings has just... He's been going big. On the accusations.

Big on the blame game. So today has been the day where he is like... As Private Eye said, he needed a whole troop of buses to throw everyone under them and what have you made today mom so i had a most delicious meal with friends on the second day after we were allowed out and my very very good friends let's give her a shout all right jill wood and other friends there were cla, Peppy and Julia. We've been meeting for a long time.

And we don't usually discuss politics. We discuss much more basic, interesting things. Won't go into detail. But it was a girl's night. And she cooked a delicious meal. And she cooked a delicious meal. And I've literally copied everything she cooked. But they are from some really brilliant cookers.

Yeah, so mostly Otto Lenge and Sami Tamimi. So I've cooked cod with harissa and chickpeas. I've done some lettuce, gem lettuce, with za'atar and lemon and olive oil. Za'atar. So it's kind of like a Palestinian deviled eggs. A Middle Eastern, yeah. A Middle Eastern deviled eggs. Well, the whole meal is Middle Eastern.

Topping it off with something that was so delicious. I hope it's Middle Eastern eat a mess. So if I tell you there's rose water and pomegranate in the mix, you'll be excited with a syrup made of sumac and sugar at the bottom yeah also should we say why you've asked him to come at 6 p.m look I'm just going to come clean he's going to be late as well for fuck's I'm going to have to say from the outset thank you so much for coming at six there is a reason because at five to eight I'm going to the sitting room and the outset, thank you so much for coming at six. There is a reason, because at five to eight, I'm going to the sitting room and I'm watching the footy,

because it's our big night. Please, God, we win. Five to eight. Do you know, it's a very important day, May the 26th. It's when we won the trouble, the actual date. Oh, man, do you remember? We kept that champagne book. And you sat and you started to cry

because you thought we'd lost and you were over in the corner crying and then we scored you missed the goal she was crying hey it's a good night for us then tonight please god ed milliband going big thank you very much your podcast is such an institution i mean you know we haven't even started arguing yet yeah're going to be on our best behaviour How are you? Okay Eaten well today? I haven't really eaten well today I was saving myself You're very tall

I didn't imagine you were going to I've grown actually I've grown in a lot Since not being leader I'm no longer hunched big day today I haven't properly followed it it sounds relatively devastating

yeah but I think we'll go Boris will stay here I think he won't take much notice he won't how does he get away with so much like it's just i can't it's like everyone's so numb to salacious i thought about when i read your book and i haven't read it and memorized it sure but your idea is that we should seize this moment and make changes

and however big they are we should think yeah we can do this definitely but don't you think that people have become kind of numbed and a slightly inert younger people because nothing changes you know I think they're quite hurt you think they're hurt uh I to invent a word I think they're I mean if you think about younger people, they will give me hope because they are passionate about climate change or, you know, racial justice or all of the issues in our society. I mean, they're impatient and rightly so. I think you're sort of, look, there needs to be a proper inquiry into what happened, basically. And I think at the moment it's going to be he said, he said, isn't it? Yeah.

So this is... I'm not changing the subject, but this is your... This is my house. Is this where you grew up? Yeah. Oh, wow. So I'm still here, but I'm thinking... I keep on looking on Modern House to see if I can move to something newer and smaller.

In this area or...? Probably nearer to her, a little bit. Where are you, Jessie? I'm New Cross. Right. She's a pioneer. Pioneer? Which is a long way from Panzer's Deli.

Yeah, we don't have a good Jewish deli. Panzer's Deli is pretty good, isn't it? It's my favourite place. I know. But it's like, do you know Zabar's in New York? No. Zabar's is this famous deli in New York. No, we don't know that one we know Ross and

I presume Lower East Side maybe I think it's Upper West Side but I think it might be elsewhere as well anyways where are you I when I lived there when I was 18 with my dad and we used to go to Sabah's so let's talk about your family yeah and growing up because you moved around a lot yeah who was cooking and what were you eating or were you eating so many different cuisines because you were everywhere? So your mum comes from Poland. Yes. And your dad's Belgian. Yes. So both of them are refugees. My dad came here

with his dad just before the Nazis arrived in Brussels. He came as a 16-year-old with nothing. He came as Adolf Miliband. You're kidding me. And his landlady said to him we can't have you called Adolf you're gonna be Ralph you're gonna be Ralph from now on because it was probably quite a nice name well I I think he thought his I think it was with a ph um but I don't know I think well

he always used to say I don't know quite what my mother was thinking but obviously it wasn't Adolf at that point I mean it wasn't you know uh because he was used to say, I don't know quite what my mother was thinking. But obviously it wasn't Adolf at that point. I mean, it wasn't, you know, because he was born in 1924. But anyway, so he came here and then he sort of learned English and was in the Royal Navy. So they let people who came from abroad

into the Royal Navy? Yeah. No, they absolutely did. Because he was what they call a headache. He was somebody who listened to the radio transmissions to try to intercept. Nice. Oh, how exciting. I don't Because he was what they call a headache. He was somebody who listened to the radio transmissions to try to intercept. Nice.

I don't think he was very, he always said he wasn't very good at it. But yeah, so he did, I think, A-levels. He went to, I think it was Acton Technical College, did he learn English, did A-levels. And then, I think he started at the London School of Economics, then went to the Royal Navy, and then finished after the war.

And then my mum was in hiding. I mean, she lost her father. In fact, we only found out in 2014 when I went to Yad Vashem, actually exactly when my grandfather had died. Really? Yeah. It was in a labour camp, a German labour camp. Well, I mean, you know, I don't think labour camp is quite the right word. It was like a starvation camp.

It was to build a German airfield in Heilfingen. And to be fair, it's actually quite, what's happened since is quite inspiring because two teachers, this had essentially been covered up, that there was this labour camp where lots of Jews had been transported, I think from Auschwitz to there to build this airfield at the end of the war and it had been basically covered up by the town and then these two teachers were like well we can't have this covered up so they kind of surfaced the past and one thing after another there's now a memorial there and i we i went with my mom and my brother and my aunt and my grandfather was buried in a mass grave,

but then, you know, there is a proper memorial now, and they've really, I mean, they've done an amazing thing. So your mum was in hiding? My mum was in hiding, and she was hidden, I mean, eventually she was in a convent and then hidden by a Catholic family who saved the life of her sister. In Poland? Yeah. She's in a convent and then hidden by a Catholic family who saved their life. And that's the life of her sister. In Poland.

And she, so they sheltered her mother, her and her sister. And then eventually she came here after the war. And where did they meet? They met at the LSE. Because they were both. Well, my mother was a student. And your father was. Yeah, a lecturer.

Are you the younger brother? I am, yeah. So you grew up with David. Yeah. And did you have family meals? Yes. Did you sit and eat? Yes, definitely. What were you eating?

What were we eating? Big food family, big foodie family. Quite big food family. My mum was a great cook, actually. She just cooked dishes from all over the world, is my memory of it. Actually, my grandmother. So my grandmother lived in Israel and then came to live in England. And she would cook traditional Jewish food.

Chicken soup, matzo balls. Chicken soup, matzo balls, definitely. Like, definitely, yeah. So growing up, your mum was the cook. Definitely. My father was quite, he was quite lefty in his views, but quite traditional in his approach. I remember I did live with him in America at one point, and we spent three and a half months together. I was out of school in the UK, and he was a pretty dreadful cook.

And we used to eat quite a lot of pasta with tomato sauce from the tin. And about two weeks before the end, I remember eating the pasta and the tomato sauce and looking at the jar, saying, Dad, I think you're supposed to warm up the tomato sauce. And he said, oh, you're right. So, yeah, it was my mum who did the cooking. Are you left-wing in your views and traditional in your gender roles? No, I am much more. I've tried to be more consistent, Lenny.

Definitely tried to. Do you cookny definitely try to cook yes i do yes i do what's your what's your go-to dish i'm a recipe follower rather than a recipe box follower and a recipe follower and also the my children sort of like quite simple food so you know i'd sort of still a lot of pasta and tomato yeah probably i managed to warm up the tomato sauce no i'm quite i'm surprisingly able to follow a recipe but i'm not somebody my thing about my mother was she didn't need a recipe she just she just seemed to rustle things up whether it was stuffed cabbage or meatballs or chicken or chicken and couscous or whatever it was she just managed to do it i don't know what it was.

She just had it. She just had it. Yeah. Which books have you been, like, cooking out of quite a lot? Like, recipe books? God, that's a good question. Or have you been using BBC Good Food? Because we all do.

Yeah. Yeah, BBC Good Food. I sort of look on the internet. Justine would say I'm very good at buying cookbooks and less good at following them. We all love that. They're so beautiful. They're so beautiful. They have such nice pictures yeah the beautiful elements you know what i would really recommend i'm my children joke about this i'm a big reader of the new york times

the new york times cooking app is really good i mean i definitely follow the new york times cooking you have to download it and you have to pay that would be my that would be my go-to so like i made justine this sort of tomato and white bean soup recently which was the first time i made it was okay and the second time not so good but uh you know so you can sort of oh yeah that's a great idea it is really good don't you think i think it's great yeah and where do you go out to eat do you go out a lot i've forgotten what going out is like. Have you been out yet? We've been out a couple of times. There's actually a very nice Italian place called Amine

a cure in Kentish town where we live. We like Dishoom. Do you know Dishoom? Yeah. King's Cross. Morrow. Do you know Morrow? Yes. It's our 10th wedding anniversary on Thursday and we're going tomorrow. Tomorrow. Is it tomorrow? Have you got a present?

Yeah, I'm on this on the way I love Morrow Justine's favourite restaurant It's my favourite too, they do that lamb That's so fabulous A burrito's great too You do have to sit with the food almost on your lap I don't mind that, because it's closer to you

But I was wondering What was it like when you were the leader of the Labour Party going out? Did you feel like everyone had a point of view to tell you when you were going out, whether it was like eating out? Did you avoid eating out? Taxi drivers. A good job my wife is not in this conversation. She would say it was grim. Was it? Was it a pain in the arse?

I think it was pretty, you know, I think in retrospect, and I should have realised it more at the time, I think it was significantly grimmer for her than it was for me. Because I think you are powerless, really, as a spouse, you're powerless to do anything about whether it goes well or badly, really, fundamentally. I mean, you can provide support, but you can't really do anything about it. You're, in her case, a professional woman. woman what does she do she's a high court judge uh

she's now she's now a high court judge um but we shall say something about in a second but you know she's like my wife but she was then a lawyer environmental lawyer as you know the reason i laugh is that since i stopped being leader her career has stopped taking on she became accused the deputy high court judge and i could judge which is rather suggest how much i was holding her back but so and you know i remember actually i think it was morrow i remember maybe it was during the leadership campaign but i can't remember but i remember her saying that was one particularly grim dinner where we went tomorrow and it was sort of like she felt like you know the eyes of the whole restaurant were

on you certainly look very fresh and young you certainly look better than if you were i did the opposition i probably look i probably feel and look better than i did do you feel sorry for kia i feel sorry for anyone doing that job it's a very exacting job it's a it's it is a very exacting job but but you know there are more difficult jobs in the world. Sure. And you choose it. No one made you do it. Exactly. Yeah.

Exactly. Do you think Jeremy was your natural successor? I don't know about natural successor. I mean, you talk about activating young people. He certainly did that. People loved him. Yeah, he did. But I think Keir is fantastic.

Why do you think he's fantastic mom because i think he's forensic i think he's a good honest man i don't think he's full of bullshit i think he means what he says i completely agree with you about him he has decency he has integrity yeah you know in spades and i think the more people know about him and get to know about him the more they will like him and i think he's come in at the most difficult time. He often jokes about this. You know, he's literally not spoken to an audience at all in his first year because of social distancing and so on. So it's a very odd.

It's just such an unprecedentedly difficult time. And he challenges, but he's got to look as if he's supporting everyone. And also, the other thing about that job is, honestly, as I know to my, I know, well, you know, everyone in the Labour Party thinks that, you know, it's got advice for you about how, you know. Really? Smile more, smile less, do this more, do this less. You know, it just, it sort of slightly comes with it. And I think the thing I learned the most, and maybe I should have done this more, more is you've got to be yourself you can't pretend to be something you're not now actually boris johnson does pretend to be something he's not but leave him to one side for a second yeah but i think you know for other people i think it's just very you've got to you've got to sort of bring who you

are and i think that's what the public want but you see there's something about boris he's created this boris person that the fact that you call him Boris is also... Yeah, it's like... And if the Campbell goes on about that, he's Boris Johnson. Tessa Jowell used to say this to me. Yeah. He's Boris Johnson. But he's created this thing.

He's Boris, you know, who ruffles his hair and he gets things wrong a bit. You've got to take the long view on these things. You know, the reality is that we've been through such a terrible moment as a country and let's be honest about it it would have challenged any government because it's come out of well not out of nowhere but you know it's not nobody expected you know if we'd all been saying to each other we're going to have spent a year of social distancing and all these restrictions we'd never have believed it and so it's been totally unprecedented i think there is a natural tendency and you see this right across the world for people to be

relatively generous to their governments you know to sort of to give quite a lot in saying okay well you know it's hard and I think the question is not where are we now the question will be well who's got a better view of the future? And I think there is going to be a sort of the world of the pandemic and the world after the pandemic. And I think they are two different things, really. And the thing for Labour is you've just got to say, well, this is what we do for the country.

And then people will have to make up their mind. I mean, look, I agree with you that Boris Johnson is a figure. I think the public are that much in love with him, by the i mean i think people have great i think people have very mixed view people know he's a chancer now the question is is he a chancer who's on their side or not and that's what we've got to i mean some of your books reminiscent of his leveling You talk about disadvantaged people and people who are doing very well. And he talks about levelling up. He only seems to be levelling up in certain areas. Well, also, he's good at talking about it, Lenny,

but the question is... He doesn't do it. Yeah, is he going to do it? You see, look, you know, I'm an MP in Doncaster. You know, obviously, I'm the MP, but there's one seat in Doncaster that went Conservative at the 2019 election. But I think what people in Doncaster are going to be saying is, well, OK, the rhetoric is fine.

And we do feel, and I say in the book, Brexit, the financial crisis, what coronavirus has illuminated about the country. They all speak to a sense of people feeling like this country doesn't work for them this economy doesn't work for them they feel excluded yeah and just so many conversations i had with people around brexit and you know lots of people say oh brexit was immigration brexit was the eu honestly the the vast majority of the conversations i had with people in my constituency about brexit and it was significant majority for brexit one of the highest among Labour seats, was, I want a new beginning for the country, I want better industry, I want jobs for my kids. Basic things that people would think,

well, that's reasonable enough. How's that working out? Well, you make that point very clearly about traditional mining towns, where they can't go back to those horrible jobs. But the jobs haven't been replaced. But there's nothing there for them, yeah. And, you know, I've got this job now as a shadow business and energy secretary

and just one on call with some of the trade unions and actually some of the green groups about, you know, well, what do these jobs look like in the future? Where are the new jobs going to come? So where are they? Well, there are jobs that can be done. I mean, think about this climate transition is massive. I know.

I mean, it is massive. You know, how you heat your home, how we drive around, green spaces, all of those things. Now, think about the jobs that need to be done. I'll tell you who is doing actually a good job on this is Biden. Joe Biden. Yeah. You know, he's saying, look, this is about, people talk about climate. I talk about jobs.

You know, this is about the jobs of the future. People talk about climate, I talk about jobs. You know, this is about the jobs of the future. And I think there is a really positive, exciting vision of how we can transform the country in a better way. Whilst Mum tends to... It's incredibly nice of you to cook for me, by the way. Well, it's part of the shtick. I mean, that's our shtick. Am I allowed to ask what we're having?

Yeah, I mean, I feel like the chef should say this. So I've made cod with chickpeas and harissa. Sounds fantastic. And some eggs done with kind of zata and chilli and some herbs on the top. Some just ordinary rice. And I've done some blistered tomatoes with yoghurt which is otolenghi and some little gem lettuce with some nigella seeds

on the top. That sounds absolutely fantastic. I mean, not fed. I mean, not a bacon sandwich inside. No. We ask everybody on the podcast what their last supper would be. Oh my God, how grim. No, my God. So it would be... How great.

No, OK, well, you're going to a desert island. You're not going somewhere else. Yeah. So, starter, main, pudding, drink of choice. Oh, my gosh, that is really hard. Ed, you should have been prepared. I should have been prepared. You can think about this.

I'm under-briefed. I'm going to have to... You're going to have to fucking talk to your person. Yeah, exactly. OK, I need some time to think about this. So think about it. Think about it. That's fine.

So I want to know, how's the bike? Good. Yeah? Mum's left that one out for you just here if you wanted to have a little go on it. I've got a stationary bike. You know, it's quite compact. Yeah, it is. I like it.

And I watched it. I mean, I've got quite a lot of questions about transport for you. Yeah. Do you have an electric car? Yes, I do. How's that going for you? It's, there's a great community of people who meet at charging points and struggle. Do you all have snacks?

Honestly, I met this, I met, I mean, I cannot tell you. Do you all have snacks? Honestly, I met this... I mean, I cannot tell you. So my in-laws live in Nottingham, and we spent a long time... It's good for family bonding. Why? Well, because we spent an hour and a half

at the McDonald's in Loughborough recharging. I guess that is good, a compromise, for your eight-year-old... No, your 10-year-old and 12-year-old to go to McDonald's, so I guess that's good. Yeah, that was good. And then I met a couple i was i actually drove up to donkester and then drove back down sometime late a few days later and uh i met a couple who were absolutely gnashing their teeth they said it had taken them eight hours to get on some journey because they had

so many trouble with the charging points i mean our charging infrastructure is but range you know the range anxiety is so at the moment we've got a reno zoe we just trial my mate yeah my mate 200 miles yeah i mean 200 miles in fact i'm nick i'm gonna take nick ferrari for a drive in it um don't ask uh yeah wow how's that well i don't know it hasn't happened yet I offered him a drive. But this looks fantastic. That's it? It does, Mum. I presume it's going to keep on. Because I got told that I shouldn't get an electric car just yet.

I kind of rate all the people that are doing it now. But apparently they're going to get much, much better as people invest more. I mean, you can get them on a sort of month-by-month basis. The subscription service. Yeah. And I think there's... So I think my instinct is they are, the range is going to improve. But actually, the range is not that bad.

Yeah. Do you have a charger outside your house? In the lamppost, yeah. Oh, that's good. This is so kind of you. No, no, no. It's a pleasure. And also on the day of a Man United game.

Well, no, you are getting kicked out in 59 minutes. Yeah, I understand. Or you're watching. What time does the game start? Eight. Got anywhere with your last supper, Ed? Still working on it. Ed.

You're not a foodie, are you? It's not like you're not going to go, oh my God, I need this. Not his physique. You're not a foodie, are you? It's not like you're not going to go, oh my God, I need this. Don't look at his physique. He's not a foodie. That's the electric biking. That's it. I'm a cold water swimmer now, too.

Are you having a midlife crisis? Because every man is into cold water swimming. Definitely. You follow Wim Hof, I presume? No, I think Jeff, my co-host, told me about Wim Hof. Yeah, that's the next person that you've got to find. Stig Abel said that nobody who's ever been cold water swimming

hasn't boasted about it, which I think is definitely true. Where are you doing it? The Hampstead Ponds. Anywhere. It's very good for you. The men's pond. It is good, yeah. I really recommend cold water swimming. No, I'm not doing it. Why not?

I've struggled getting into the kids' pool 29 degrees the other day. I'm not doing bloody four. I'm not doing it. Why not? I've struggled getting into the kids' pool 29 degrees the other day. I'm not doing bloody four. I'm sorry. I've got better things to do. You see the ducks. I can see them and feed them from the side, Ed. You're communing with the ducks? Lenny, you're looking appalled.

Has your health improved since you are no longer the Labour leader? Definitely. Really? Well, I don't know, but, I mean, yeah, it's quite a stressful experience, don't you think? Did you want to be leader? Yes. Or did people say you should do it?

No, I wanted to do it. And I felt I had something distinctive and important to say. And that is a unique privilege to have done it, and I wouldn't wish I hadn't done it. No, but takes definitely takes its toll and also there is something about being part of a team working for a sort of common goal which is quite unique and you know you get a chance to talk to the country about where the country is how things need to change I mean that is a big thing so I definitely wouldn't

that is a big thing so i definitely wouldn't i don't sort of don't regret doing it um but it is i think the biggest sacrifice is about family the intrusion into your family life and you know my kids were even younger than obviously and were they aware of it not really the older one a little bit when we when i lost but but um you but he was only sort of five or six. So it's sort of not, you know. I was, I had my, you know, because I'm now back on the front line in a sense, not as leader, obviously. Shadow Business Energy Secretary. But, and you know, you do have a hesitation about that because it's so, the last experience of the front line was quite full on. Was there any part of you that had any relief when you didn't win,

where you were just like, you know what, fuck this, I'm tired? I mean, I definitely felt at least I'm no longer a target. Yeah. It's bullying, right? It was bullying, the sun, every... And there's only so much you can take of that, surely. They didn't want me to win, but, you know, overwhelmingly, obviously, I wish I'd won. Yeah.

Oddly enough, the stress at the time, I just felt it was part of the job, and it's only looking back on it. You see the level of... Yeah. It almost feels more stressful in retrospect than it felt at the time. Justine would disagree with that.

Well, once you're in it, you've just got to do it. Well, once you're in it, you've got to do it. I think that's basically it. You think, well, nobody forced me to do this i wanted to do it i know the reason i'm doing it the cause is what's driving me forward to make the country fair and i think i can do a better job than cameron and therefore that's sort of what made it what drove me forward and then it's when you then think back on it you think oh god did you need therapy after it like to be able to kind of i've definitely had therapy before and after it actually well but like to be able to kind of understand to compute yeah and i think and i think that's why

going back into the front line is quite anxiety making yeah right because the experience of last time was like you know i sandwiched in a particular way and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, I think it's definitely hard. And there are definitely sacrifices involved in being a frontline politician. But I never thought afterwards, oh, I want to go off and work for Facebook or, you know, whatever. You've had a bit of time to mull this over, Ed. And, you know, you've done a few deflection tasks.

I can see this, but now I need you to answer. You're putting me on the spot. Well, I mean, you've had half an hour and you've had a meal. Yeah. We've chatted about a few things. And has, you know, what are you going to do? It doesn't have to be, you know. Okay. Spring, I'm going Chinese.

Oh. Spring rolls. Yeah. Can I, sort of, peaking dumplings. Love, what, pancakes or dumplings? Dumplings. Where'd you get, I've never had a Peking dumpling. A Peking duck dumpling?

No, no, it's like a Peking dumpling with like a sort of stuff inside. Where do you get, is there a particular takeaway? Because I have this memory, no, I have this memory of being with my dad in America and going to, it was such an amazing thing to go out and have, and Chinese food was like good in America. After cold tomato pasta. After cold tomato pasta. After cold tomato pasta. And so, you know, it was such a treat to go to. It was called the Hunan Restaurant.

And to go, I think it was in Watertown, Massachusetts, or Wolfland, Massachusetts. So, spring rolls and Peking dumplings. Lovely. Mushu chicken. I don't know that. So, mushu is, like, a pancake. You is like a pancake you're going full i'm going full well full is chinese is this starter still we're main now no this is main okay and it was like um because

it remind me of my dad this is why i'm choosing it uh and it would be sort of it's very thin pancakes with a bit of sort of soy sauce or something and then this it was sort of chicken and beans it's not very sophisticated but chicken and bean sprouts and stuff. And it definitely reminded me of my childhood. That's sort of the main, and maybe a veggie too, because I'm now an adult. And then the pudding. What do I choose for pudding? A big sweet tooth?

Not so much, actually. Like a chocolate cake. Okay. Not very Chinese. No, that's fine, though. But like a particular chocolate cake, you get like, is there somewhere in your area that you love a chocolate cake? A homemade birthday chocolate cake? My mother used to make a really good chocolate cake.

A Sacha Torte? No, just a rather plain chocolate cake. So that's my choice. Drink? Some nice white wine. Now, the climate change, all of... Sorry. Good segue.

Good segue. No, because I was just thinking about, have you changed the way you eat? Now that, you know, you are... You're watching your footprint. Are you watching, yeah. Have you changed it or not? Do you still have beans from Kenya?

Or are you more flexitarian now? I'm more flexitarian. I don't really eat that much red meat, but that's partly, and this is maybe an argument about the climate thing, which is, it's partly a health thing, that you should eat less red meat. I think we all do now, don't we? Do you think we do?

Yeah. But have you kind of made... Yeah, I think so. I mean, I try to. But I think this is my point about climate, is that you can do good things for the climate and it can also benefit you in the rest of your life. Have you met Greta?

I have met Greta. She did an event at the House of your life you know have you met greta i have met greta she did an event at the house of commons what's she like you know charismatic and uncompromising in a good way yeah i mean she forced michael gove to say she was the his conscience or something um no she's got one well indeed yeah he discovered it um uh, she's pretty impressive, isn't she? That's why you see about young people. Yeah, she's inspirational. But, I mean, I heard that lots of young people got very anxious when she was talking about climate change

because they thought that, you know, catastrophe was coming. Well, I think it is quite important to be able to say, we can do this. Yeah. Not, it's all hopeless and terrible. I think that is important. Yeah, I think that's true um because otherwise people feel a sense of hopelessness but i think this point about meat is interesting because you see i think the climate argument is not just i sometimes say martin luther king didn't say i have a nightmare he said i have a dream yes and we're

very good at saying i have a nightmare okay in nightmare, you've got to be told the truth about how bad it could be and so on. But you've also got to say, look, we can do better as a society. You know, we can have better insulated homes, better ways of getting around, better public transport, better walking.

You know, cycle lanes, well, I think, well, cycle lanes definitely make me feel more secure. Yeah. You don't want to be on a road with a massive bus in the same lane. Well, you can be, but... me feel more secure. Yeah. You don't want to be on a road with a massive bus in the same lane. Well, you can be, but... I become more confident.

There is this proficiency training also you can do. Can I just tell you, I'm going to be... I might not look it, but I'm going to be 70. You are not. In October. I do not believe it. You were quick enough. I don't believe it.

Quick enough. Yeah, I don't think I want to cycle. I saw you as my generation. Oh! I did! You're such a schmoozer. You're not schmoozing me. I do know what schmoozer is, and I'm definitely not a schmoozer.

I'm a truth teller. No, I'm old. Well, maybe Coldwater Swimming then. Oh, my God. Imagine. Because he knows in the Coldwater. No, stop. The women's pond in...

My friend Sue swims there every day. Let's shout out to Sue. Sue Leifer. Sue Leifer. Shout out to Sue Leifer. She swims there every day. You see? What about going with Sue?

No. I live in Clapham. I'm not going up there. Do you want some more of this? Oh, go on then, yeah. I'm not going to up that. Do you want some more of this? Oh, go on then, yeah. I'm not actually a big drinker. This is like more than I would ever normally drink. So goodness knows

what's going to happen. This is like an Eton mess. It looks fantastic. But it's a Middle Eastern one. I mean, Eton mess is very appropriate, if I may say so. My God, Mum! Very good. I mean, that is Thai politics so. My God, Mum. That's very good. I mean, that is Thai politics.

Yeah. Wow, Mum. Thank you so much. Thank you. Did you get the bottom bit? What was the bit at the bottom? The bottom is sumac

and pomegranate molasses. Did Ed get any of that at the bottom? I hope so. I don't know. It looks great. I'll give him some. This looks fantastic.

Wow. I'm coming here. I'm allowed to come here again. This is delicious. Is it, darling? When we do our cold water swimming together, Lenny. What about your podcast? Let's talk about your podcast.

So how's it going? Did you feel like that was a way for you to show your personality? I love my podcast. 193, I think we did today. That's awful. Thank you. I think we did today. That's enough. Thank you. I took a few weeks off for the general election, but we've basically done one a week since 2017.

I think there's something about the... You must feel this. You both must feel this too. There's something about the format, which is just totally different, isn't it, than an interview. Yeah. You know, when I go on the today program or whatever it's sort of

it's got kind of tired let's be honest it's quite it can be quite tiresome it's not we've also got two minutes to get your very few very short amount of time to get your point across you sort of feel under i don't know you know it look it's important scrutiny and I don't want to sort of disparage it but there's something about the podcast format even the BBC people who do podcasts like Nick Robinson and others they're completely different on their podcasts and they are maybe that's natural but Jeff and I really love it and you know I when I lost after 2015 I mean losing an election I wouldn't sort of recommend it really um do feel quite lost, I felt quite lost and I kind of thought well how do I take my ideas forward

I don't know how to do it then Geoff Lloyd came to me and said he actually came to somebody who used to work for me saying I've got this preposterous idea that Ed and I could do a podcast together did you know each other at all? he'd interviewed me in the 2015 general election where he asked whether I'd ever done a Mooney. No, that's the answer.

Not even now you do cold water swimming? Well, not a kind of aggressive Mooney. And then I said, oh, well, let's just do a pilot and see how it goes. And then I kind of thought, oh, this is really good. I think for you, it must have shown you were free to show your personality, show your wit, your opinions in full. And I suppose the interesting question is, why was it so hard to do that when I was leader?

Oh, I think that's unfair on you, actually. I think it's hard to do because that's not your role to show that your personality I mean some people have got away with it just living on their personality you had to please so many people and a peak like you know there's so many cooks in a kitchen I presume when you're running for lead. Yeah, and also you're so conscious of the sort of daily mail and so on. You know, if you say a word out of place, are people going to say, is it going to be distorted? And that's a problem.

I think I should have been less conscious of, you know, am I going to say the wrong thing? It makes you too... It made me too buttoned up, I think. This is so nice. Yeah, no, it's not difficult, honestly. I know, that's what everybody in the great good says. No, you could do this very easily, I think.

Yeah. Really? But I want... I mean, it's mascarpone and creme fraiche, and then I cut up all the things. It's really great. And some rose rose water I can't taste the rose very much no but I don't want too much rose could you taste any way no but that was okay it's really please have some more so so the book's out the podcast carries on you're back on the

front line well front bench front kind of like a front nine. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Oh, Ed's having a little second. We love this. Do you know, this is someone with a good appetite. It makes you very happy. Do you feel... And I'm not a massive dessert person. Oh, yeah, they always say that. Do you feel happy, fulfilled, satisfied with where you are at in your career?

What a difficult question, jesse i just feel that is such a good question is it i don't know i feel do you i mean it was a leading question because i feel like the answer is yes yeah you've learned to ride the bike you've written this book you're going back into kind of frontline politics the interesting thing is, my immediate reactions I think about that is I think I've got a fantastic wife and two lovely kids. And, you know, I was on the street with my son, Sam, the younger one, the other day. And this woman passed me and said, I really wish you were prime minister, mate. And carried on. Well, you know what, though?

I then said to him, I then had this discussion with him. And I said, it kind of would have been pretty crap for you if I'd said to him, I then had this discussion with him, and I said, it kind of would have been pretty crap for you if I'd been Prime Minister, wouldn't it? And he goes, yeah, definitely. Oh, your little boy. And so... It would have been awful. It would have been.

Can you imagine? Do you remember how Tony Blair's kids got it? They had a really hard time. I mean, it's so hard, isn't it? If you're young. So, you know, I think what I feel most happy about is my family and the relationship I have with them. And, you know, I often think that when I was a leader, I was sort of present but absent. Well, I was absent.

And then even when I was present, I was absent. And so, you know, I think the book, you know, I really care about the book and ideas. And, you know, I think the big change we need in the country and I sort of haven't given up and I think that's really important and that's why I'm still in it and why I'm still doing what I'm doing and I'm happy to be on the front bench and doing the podcast and all that and but I feel most blessed and lucky by with my family actually um last question Ed last question is it over already yeah i'm sorry i'm just like getting into the mess so manny and i should give to your listeners eight o'clock i'm getting kicked out with the manny and i should you can stay and what is like clock watching eight minutes to eight

this is so rude isn't it but no and she's not actually apologetic not apologetic we have we have i don't think you should be apologetic. No, it might be our big night. It might not. It might be a big disaster. It's going to be a big night. We've had bloody Ed Miliband here. It's going to be a big night.

An enormous night, 26th of May. Not as big a night as when we go cold water swimming to get a little eddy. All right, that tries to go. Two questions. Tandem. Tandem. Tandem.

I wouldn't mind naked naked no oh Jesus Christ now we're pushing it Alice I mean I I hear your kind offer to me Lenny

but I I reject it naked Lenny and I naked on a tandem I don't think we're doing much for my image

no I think not it would make the bacon sandwich look like a walk in the park well onto this do you think you've got good table manners edmund i don't know i mean you'd have to tell me that i think you do look he had seconds that's that's your appetite you're in i mean it was totally genuine the second i hope so and lastly go on karaoke song would you if you had to karaoke have you i'm sure at labor conferences i've done it

with jeff actually i've done it with jeff and sarah um why where were you good they took me to a karaoke bar why did they i don't know not really me the karaoke thing and what did you sing yikes i can't even remember sarah his wife does an incredible um you know billy joel was it we didn't start the fire oh yeah okay so you didn't sing you did sing but you can't remember you're just not gonna i'm just blotting it out i think are you a ballads man or a hip-hop fan? Do you like music? I'm a sort of 80s crap music sort of fan Dad rock Aha, I think I must have done Take On Me Oh my god

Yeah, I did Take On Me That's a good one for a leader I did it on The Last Leg Have you not seen The Last Leg? What, that you saw? Oh, I love The Last Leg Yeah, I sang it on The Last Leg I mimed it on The Last Leg with all the bloody instruments

Oh my god Why? Well, in order to rescue my political career after I lost the last leg. Yeah, I sang it on the last leg. I mimed it on the last leg with all the bloody instruments. Oh, my God. Well, in order to rescue my political career after I lost the election. Oh, mate. Yeah, honestly. With Josh Whittaker and what's his name? Yes, yes, yes. Well, I did it solo, actually. I did all the instruments.

It went well. Honestly. It went viral? It was my life. Jessie was the high point of my career and you, like, missed it. Fuck, I'm so sorry. And they got me to eat a bacon sandwich in a black leather jacket oh my god on a motorcycle because they wanted to change the sort of google searches to have me sort of looking cool no it's a good picture

good seriously anyway so uh-huh yeah i think i think take on me sorry so it's just again uh-huh uh Take on me. Anyway, you see, there you go. Edmund Ballard, it's been such a pleasure to chat to you.

We could have you here for hours. Oh, but you've got the Man United. But you can't. Just so you know, listeners,

I am getting kicked out because in five minutes it's Man United versus Villarreal. Villarreal. I didn't even know where it was. In the Europa League final.

And that is much more important. It has been really lovely. It's been lovely. I'm incredibly grateful for the invitation. Mum, you've literally pushed him out the door. Now read what he's written in your thing. Can I read? Now bear in mind, he says he doesn't usually drink this much and I think he was on his third glass.

To Lenny, with grateful thanks for a fantastic evening and look forward to the cold water, brackets, naked, swimming, much love, Ed. I mean, that could have just won him the election. Do you know what I mean? Mum is literally not doing the outro with me. She's pushed Ed Miliband out the door. I think he said, can't I watch the film with you? And she said, no.

You won't enjoy it. And pushed him out the fucking door. Ed i think he said can't i watch the film with you and she said no you won't enjoy it and pushed him out the fucking door um ed miller band what a gen what a brilliant man go and get go big and yeah thank you for such a thought-provoking wonderful really honest chat that he just gave us it may have been the three glasses of wine but i still appreciate it and the edmund the band thank you so much for listening to everybody uh mum do you want to say goodbye thanks so much lenny says bye Thank you for listening. The music you've heard on Table Manners is by Peter Duffy and Pete Fraser. Table Manners is produced by Alice Williams.