Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S11 Ep 23: Andrew Wong

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

This week we invite over the 2* Michelin chef Andrew Wong to Lennie’s. He kindly brings over the main, his cod head dish (which mum was incredibly nervous about) and showers ma with gifts! We chat about leaving Oxford uni, instant noodles and growing up working in his family’s restaurant (where he met his wife). He also talks about his Mum’s sugar sandwiches and how his kids hate his food. We loved having you Andrew, especially when we watched you eat a fish eye. You can listen to his podcast XO Soused now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware. And I'm your mother. How are you, Mum? All right, darling. I know who I am today. Well, because you've got your pinion that has your name on it. Helps. It's very chic, Mum. You look ready to either be on Celebrity MasterChef or The Great British Menu.

The Great British Menu. I've just finished watching the final. How was it? And it was thrilling. Was Oli Marlow in the final? The young guy. Aulis. He worked at Aulis. Yes.

Yes. Simon Rogan talked about Aulis when he was on our podcast before. Oh, he was fantastic, Oli. Well, speaking of Michelin star chefs, we've had quite a few on the podcast before. How many? Raymond Blanc. Raymond Blanc. Simon Rogan.

Simon Rogan. Simon Rogen. Tom Kerridge. And this is somebody that I've been trying to get for years. We've been trying to get it going. Jessie, why is that? Because I've had one of my best meals there. I looked at his menu. So it's quite eclectic, isn't it?

It's not just Chinese food. It's pretty much Chinese food, Mum. His set menu's called A Taste of China. Yeah, lots of it's Chinese and it's not just Chinese food. It's pretty much Chinese food, Mum. His set menu's called A Taste of China. Yeah, lots of it's Chinese and it's... Where's he from? Is he from Hong Kong or...? No, I think he's from London. And the whole story is that he studied chemistry at Oxford University and then he...

I don't know whether he was kicked out or he left, but he went to work at his family's restaurant at the age of 22 and just developed the family business and now has... He uses amazing produce. It's honestly one of the best set menus I've ever had and you can sit at the kitchen counter.

So you're on the counter and you watch on the pass. So he'll feel at home with us. Yeah, and so you watch at the pass and I have to say, he was a little snappy with his fellow chefs. Oh, gosh. But I dug it.

He's met his match, darling. But he was very charming. But, oh, my God, he ran a tight ship. Oh, God, well, I'm going to stay out of the way. It was so exciting. I swear, he always sees me when I'm pregnant because I think I was there and I had to get mocktails. But I went for my birthday years ago. it's this really small beautiful restaurant his wife is a front of house and she's just charming and it's just real family vibes but with the most exciting Chinese food I've ever had

most exciting food I've had like honestly it was such a memorable time he got a second mission star this year I think fantastic um so he's got two and he is just really nice i really really liked him it's such exciting food and he's making the mains so that's nice it's very nice darling i hope he doesn't mind having my onion rice well yeah i mean it's it's difficult when when a michelin star chef and somebody who does Chinese cuisine, which is very out of your remit. Like that's not what you do. Didn't have a clue. I mean, I just panicked.

Maybe you can't be on Celebrity MasterChef. I don't know. What do you mean? Of course I could. But you panic. Well, I panic. And then you shout at Monica. And then you defend her.

And they keep it all in the edit. Yeah, no, I'm not going on it so yes so on the menu tonight Andrew Wong is bringing a dish that he put up on Instagram which looked freaking great so I'm really happy that he's bringing that to get cooking the veggies darling

this is what we're having I've made dessert cod cheeks steamed on the bone with salted pickled and fresh chillies the most incredible silky texture to the cheek. Our gift to all our guests as we welcome you back. Don't speak like that. He wants my onion rice with it.

Look, Mum, the onion rice is legendary. Is it? And then what's for pud? I've made an apple, walnut, honey and yoghurt cake. I feel like just go fully away from... I just didn't know what to do, darling. But it sounds lovely. Double Michelin star chef Andrew Wong,

finally coming up on Table Manners. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. What do you say in Chinese? Ganbei. Ganbei. And which part of, are you family from China or Hong Kong? So my mother is from Hong Kong.

My father's side of the family was from Sichuan, which is in the centre. Yeah. Which is obviously famous for really spicy food. Yeah. So this dish is actually not from Sichuan, it's from Hunan which is hunan province hunan province yeah hunan so that's famous the restaurant is very famous in in sloane square yes yeah michael pang and mr pang's restaurant um and you know hunan food is kind of similar to citroenese food but it doesn't have the citron peppercorns oh right so that's the big major difference between citroenese food, but it doesn't have the Sichuan peppercorns. Oh, right. So that's the big major difference between Sichuanese food and Hulingese food. So I had my honeymoon in Hong Kong.

Did you really? Last year? Dad didn't turn up for... How many days did Dad not turn up for? He came three days after. Needless to say, they didn't stay married. We didn't stay together. But I loved Hong Kong.

I thought it was a very exciting place. Have you been? So last time I was there was November 2019. Oh, really recently? Quite recently, yeah. There's a difference. I was in a casino in Macau. Oh, we stayed at the Sunset Hotel.

That's the casino. Are there lots of casinos in Macau? Lots of casinos in Macau. I've got to tell you. There was only one then. So I went for a massage and... You went for a massage in Macau? In Macau, yeah.

Really? And it was okay, but they offered my husband a massage and offered to massage other parts that other people hadn't reached before. And he said, no, I'm not like that. But they massaged me fine. It was okay. But we stayed in this very funny hotel in Macau that served kippers and porridge.

Well, you know, Macanese cuisine is very unique, right? So Macanese, it's ex-Portuguese, kind of has African, Singaporean, Chinese, loads of influences from all over the world. We had a spicy chicken dish that blew my mouth that was still hot for three days later. I mean, Macanese would really kind of see themselves as being connected to China. And they have things like bechamel sauce on their menu, which is weird.

Like cheesy fish sauce or they have like chicken curry or they have like, you know, grilled prawns, which you would sometimes associate with being kind of Mediterranean or kind of something something Greek or whatnot but it actually it's very traditional Macanese food yeah so mum this is why you need to go to A1 because is it still called a taste of China the it is yeah yeah set menu kind of the tasting menu and he takes you all around different regions if you'd taken me last time sorry I was going for my birthday dinner with my husband and we got to sit at, what's the number of the counter that you call it? Eight.

Why is that? Just because it's a lucky number. Oh, okay. Yeah, it was the most phenomenal tasting menu. So you'd be having... Jessie's not stopped talking about how fabulous it was. Oh, you're very kind. And it's been over two years

because last time I saw you, I was pregnant with my last child. Jessie, stop it. I know, I know. It means that I'm due an A1 meal. That's what I need to do. But I just remember there was this like cumin lamb burger that you did.

Was it? Am I right? Yeah, yeah. And that was in the north. Western part of China. Kind of nearer to like Muslim region. Yes, yeah, yeah. Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan. So obviously people don't know but actually a third of the land mass of China? Kind of nearer to like Muslim regions. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan. So obviously people

don't know, but actually a third of the land mass of China is kind of Western China, which is Xinjiang province. And the religion there is Islam. You're kidding.

Yeah, yeah. So actually there's a lot of Jewish, there's a big massive Jewish community in China as well. Where? Yeah, they're called

the Khaifa Jewish Community. Really? That's so interesting. Yeah. And so, anyway, this area is completely Islamic. And what's unique about it is obviously that pork is a massive part of a Chinese diet because it's the thing that we use to bind things with. It's the go-to for kind of lubricating dishes with lard.

And actually the word for meat in general in Chinese is actually pork. So if you go on a menu and it says sweet and sour meat, that means it's sweet and sour pork. But obviously in that entire region, there's no pork in the diet. So there's a lot of kind of lamb, goat, and actually the cooking methods are very unique as well. They use kind of like tandoors in the ground and use spices which are kind of connected to the ottoman empire so they use a lot of cumin

and a lot of kind of mixtures of different spices and they use a lot of pomegranate a lot of like pickled onions honestly this menu you have you written books about food besides cookery books? I tried to write a book once. It didn't sell very well, so I don't know whether we're going to write another one. Everyone starts out with great intentions. I imagine that, you know, I'm going to find time to write this,

and obviously you end up writing it. But you're busy. You're open six days a week. Open five. We work six. Five. And do you still have the other restaurant? Is it Kym?

We closed that one. Yeah, we closed that one last July. Because of COVID, was it? It's just too hot. Yeah, it's COVID. It was in the city, right? It was in the city. So it's like, it's just been dead for the last...

It's pretty much dead. But, you know, I think it's one of those things, actually. You know, with these kind of times, you kind of reassess what you're good at and what you're not good at and you reassess whether you're not your good manager or not so were you doing food boxes meals no I purposely didn't do food boxes because I couldn't stand the sight of seeing any more of them on social media so then what was lockdown like for you and your family you've got two kids I've got two kids and you know I'm not going to lie I'm someone who does things by extreme

so if I work I work like non-stop and when you're on lockdown when I'm in my underpants watching Netflix I could do that for days like without a bit like you

with no problem were you living off these super noodles yeah I need to see these super noodles I'm just loving this idea that A Wong who gets his

two Michelin stars during COVID. Well, it was during COVID. Well, kind of, yeah. Yeah, it was. It was. Jassie, we're not having my rice with that meal, I'm telling you. Well, what? This is what we want.

This is. No, you don't have this to have tonight. I've seen these in the Chinese supermarkets. Yeah, they started to sell them in kind of high street supermarkets. But this is the, okay. The sesame flavour is the original. Sesame. So tell us about why you've brought

these noodles to mum's house. Amongst, you know, the champagne and the cod's head. I mean, why these super noodles? You want the truth or the embellished truth? The truth is that I went shopping for the restaurant yesterday

in four different places to buy kind of missing stock. And this was left in my bag from the shopping. But the embellished truth is actually, it's such an important part of being Chinese. Do your children like these? Yes. Everyone has to like them

or you're not allowed to call yourself Chinese. Why don't you let your children eat them? I would. I guess I've never really given them super noodles. Would you call them super noodles or just noodles? They're just called noodles. So instant noodles. Yeah, instant noodles.

Anyway, back to your question. Do you unlock that? So yeah, so the important thing is actually, for the entirety of their lives, we haven't really spent much time with them. I mean, I don't know if you can relate to that at all. I don't know. But when you're working in this industry, you very rarely see your...

I never really saw my parents, for example. Well, children under five really were advantaged by lockdown because they got to spend so much time with their parents. Well, exactly. And they weren't doing homeschooling all the time. Sure. Well, you know, I attempted it and I gave up on that pretty quickly. But, you know, it was nice to be at home and

and spend time with my own kids as opposed to the the 30 kids that I I spend time with in at work every single day um and you know it was not it was nice because I'm not used to it you know people said oh you know you spent too much time with my kids but actually you know we were still working during the day there was a lot of stuff to do, like random stuff. The first lockdown was just kind of like getting over the shock and trying to find a plan, which obviously takes a time. So you didn't work at all during the first lockdown? It was all kind of like press, admin, training.

And also we started a podcast. Sorry. Yes, let's talk about the podcast. Yes, so we work with my friend, Dr. Daz at SOAS. training and also we we started a podcast sorry yes let's talk about the podcast yes so um we work with my friend Dr Das at SOAS so um I apparently graduated in social anthropology you've got like a bit of a kind of it's a checker not a checker but like you've had a different route with education didn't you start at Oxford sure yeah I did so yeah and then finished at SOAS and no finished at LSE okay yeah so so the thing is you know a lot of a lot of chefs kind

of they they get into cooking because um they maybe weren't so great at academic stuff I mean I was all right academic stuff you know my my parents were Chinese so we've got they made you work where did you grow up? I grew up in London Yeah I grew up in London Whereabouts? In Dulwich first And then in Victoria

And I was good at school I was always good at school My parents were really big on education Why did you move? Because we had to be close to the restaurant So your dad's restaurant was there? Yeah, my dad's restaurant is on the site That we have the restaurant now

Which is in Pimlico Which is in Pimlico It's just beautiful where is it it's not ebony street is it big wilton road so posh people say pimlico non-posh people call it um like non-posh people call it victoria people call it pimlico okay got it or they call it bell southern belgravia oh my god but it is a really sweet little road isn't't it? It's a lovely, yeah. So that's where your parents' restaurant was? Yes, it's 1985. And so when we moved to the... And what was the name of the restaurant? Kim's.

So that's my grandmother's maiden name. Kim. So we went to school and then we'd go, finish school, we'd go to the restaurants and the chefs would cook for us. We would, you know, we would entertain ourselves by joking around with the staff and then we'd get

locked in my dad's office while he was working we would i always remember there was a photocopy we would photocopy our asses and photocopy our faces because there's nothing else to do um and then i went to i went to i went to school because my which school did you which school i went to school city of london oh yeah that's you were very clever that's a posh clever school yeah with a massive jewish community yeah so i learned i learned so much about uh jewish religion about matzah balls i know i you know we used to have basically friday afternoons off um because the classes were so empty um that's so funny yeah in in in the second year when everyone your parents loved that they They didn't know.

They just received the bills for school fees. You know, in the second year where everyone's having their bar mitzvahs, you know, it was like party central. Wild. Yeah. And when we got to GCSEs, everyone had a... Remember everyone had a VW Polo? Oh, my God. God.

Ripping around the roads of North London. And, you know, education was always really big in my family. My grandfather was, like, in the army, and he valued education above everything. He used to always say that education is the only thing that people can't take away from you, which I've just really weirdly started to tell other people this, even though I used to, like, cringe when he used to tell me.

Can you get more drink out, darling? Oh, God god yeah. Erm, ok ok, so about the meal just quickly because I'm going to tend to it because my mum says that I don't help enough and she was very scared about cooking for you. For us it's really exciting having chefs on. Yeah. Erm, but also slightly daunting.

So you, we always ask the chef to bring something. No but chefs are the easiest people to cook for. I mean, I don't know about other chefs, I'm the easiest person. I don't think I've ever, ever complained in a restaurant i think i complained once why in a beach club um in in dubai yeah because it was a bit um it wasn't really my scene anyway and then they were like they gave my kids like chips with literally a kilo of salt inside and then and then they said that it was my fault why i'm not quite sure did you go hang on a minute and then you know you know you never ever want to be that that person who goes well you know i'm a chef but then they go oh we know it's not really

salty and you're sitting there like cringing like your face is which is screwing up i hate it when they tell you you know something is salty or cold. And they say it's not really. And you say, but I'm tasting it. It is. So we've cooked for you. Well, we haven't really cooked for you because you've brought the main, which actually I saw on the Instagram.

You haven't cooked anything. We were really stressing out about what to cook with this cod head. I've just done some rice. Cod cheek. Cod cheek. I've just done some rice, but we don't have to serve it. We can just eat the greens. No, that's good.

And then with the greens. Jessie's doing that. Yeah, but I mean, I'm doing it, but I'm just trying to keep it really simple. Yeah, even though I just spoil them, just throwing them in the sauce. Oh. Should I do that then? No, I think you need to. Should I cook them a little bit?

Yeah, I'll cook them a little bit. Yeah, just cook them a little bit. Okay, and then spoil them with the sauce. I love that. Brilliant. How's that? So I want to know, I bet your parents didn't want you to be a chef.

Absolutely not. No, no, no. And actually, I didn't want to be a chef. What did you want to be? I don't know. Something where I didn't have to do much work and get paid a lot of money. What did you study at university?

So I initially studied chemistry at oxford do you like chemistry i loved chemistry up until the point when i got there isn't it yeah i think so but i think it's challenging in a nice way yeah yeah um the only point is when you get to university and you actually have to study it properly it becomes a different you know it's like it's like when you enjoy cooking but then you become a chef and it's like well it's not fun anymore what were the other chemistry students like were they a bit geeky no and actually you know i always say the most beautiful thing that i learned from my time in oxford yeah was that actually people are just people

um 18 year olds are just 18 year olds it doesn't matter where you're studying what your background is basically when you go to university there's only really two things you were interested in 18 year olds are just 18 year olds it doesn't matter where you're studying what your background is basically when you go to university there's only really two things you're interested in and studying is not one of them drinking is one and I won't say what the other is and actually that's a universal across

did you meet your wife at all? no I didn't but I've known my wife since we were 12 you're kidding how? my parents were family friends with her family. And she's from the Seychelles. Oh, how interesting.

So people always ask, like, why did you bother come to England? It can't be for Andrew and it can't be for the weather. So why are you in London? Luckily, she... She was always here. She saw something in me. She came here for holiday when I first met her at 12. Really?

But she only really moved here when she was 20-something. And we started working together in my parents' restaurant. We used to be front of house together, actually. And I used to... At your parents' restaurant? Yeah, and we used to go out a lot. And basically, she's really hardcore. I don't know whether or not it's just her or it's...

I think ladies in general are stronger than men in the sense like going out and then just go straight to work. Whereas I just passed out on the back PDR table at the back for the whole of luncheon. Oh, my God. And then my dad would walk in going, where's my son? And she would pretend to cover for me going,

oh, you know, he's just doing stock take downstairs and really i passed out and recovery yeah and she was still working fine after about 10 vodkas and oranges it's just like wow how is this possible um you know she's an incredible lady i mean she she's beautiful yeah she's front of house she still works at the restaurant she works at her restaurant. She worked at the restaurant up until the week before Isla was born, where literally she'd walk up to the door to try and open the door for people. Knock it loud. Her belly would whack the door handle. And we kept on telling her to stop working.

And she's like, no, no, no, I'm fine. But, you know, she's very stubborn as well. And I remember when my son was born, he was born on Christmas Day and she was like, oh, I won't need to take any time off work now because it was during our Christmas break. Oh, that sounds like you, Jesse. So yeah, I couldn't ever do that.

I can work hard, but I've got a funny feeling that if I had to carry a baby around for nine months and then you were telling me to go straight to work after ejecting, I don't think I could probably do it. I think I'd probably collapse in a big pile of mess in the corner somewhere so so you met when did you fall in love um I think we always you'd have to ask her was your first kiss in that restaurant no no no no Jesse please no I think I think the biggest thing is when when we were working together I got thrown out of university when I was studying chemistry why are you allowed to talk

yeah okay of course yeah you know it's um it's part of growing up I think I think like you know I came from an environment where it was an all-boys school and you know you did sport you did you know you did rugby you did football and you're surrounded by just boys all the time um and you get to university it's like wow boys only make up half of the world's population and it's like wow you can have so much fun at university. You're no longer at home. You get given a student loan for doing nothing. To apparently live off. But obviously, most of it gets spent on evening nights out.

And then you forget that university, actually, you're meant to do a little bit of that thing called studying. And you didn't. You just rebelled a bit. I don't know if it was about rebelling. I think it was just feeling his feet, darling. I think maybe I was just so happy that I got there, I forgot what to do after I got there. Oh, your parents must have been so proud.

Yeah, they were so proud. They didn't last long, though. Yeah, how did they feel when the old boot came? Oh, my God. I don't know, because it was... We just kind of rolled with it for like a year and a half until I went back into university. Okay.

And then they really wanted me to do law. Of course they did. And I refused to do law. Oh my God. So I studied social anthropology, pretending I was studying social anthropology with law. You're so naughty. I know. And obviously they were like, what are you studying?

And my parents are really Chinese. They didn't even know what anthropology was. And they couldn't even pronounce anthropology. I thought I had a struggle. But it was a great three years not so much about studying studying but kind of like there are little bits of it that were really interesting yeah and it's known for its good thinkers it's known for its economics economics but then so clever people also there were there are some very very clever people there yeah so when did the pull back into the family restaurant happen right so when i was when i was at lse um i was enrolling for the second year and my father passed away um so my mum at that time had

some restaurants with my father and so i just went back to help out, basically. And I went back to help out. And then I kind of realised that actually, if you really want to help out, you really need to kind of understand the ins and outs of a restaurant, which ultimately means you need to learn to cook. Had you ever cooked before then? No, no, just these lovely noodles.

Oh, okay. So, and you hadn't had any interest? I hadn't had any interest, no. Were you a good eater? I don interest no well you were a good eater i don't know if i was a good eater but my my my dad throughout our childhood was really big on um doing what in chinese they call ginseng which means experience as a phrase but actually if you break down the two words it means to see and to understand and he always took us to loads of different restaurants to try to see and understand how the other half lived. I remember going to Le Ranger

on St. James's Street with him. I remember he took us to a Marker Pier White's restaurant at Oak Room when we were kids. Wow. Did you appreciate it or not? No, of course not. No, okay. Yeah, yeah. but i do remember

that we ate something there where i thought this is delicious and then you go to other restaurants and order the same item but it's nowhere near the same so that was a kind of a thing growing up but then when i when i went back into cooking um initially it was just oh well let's just learn the basics let's learn the basics so that if the kitchen ever have a coup and walk out, at least we can maybe get through the day or the week. So what were those basics? Those basics, kind of like just understanding basic processes, understanding that how to make a basic sauce,

understanding how to blanch vegetables. And obviously, when you learn this stuff this stuff you learn at college where they all concentrate on western cookery um and of course chinese cookery is very very different um across the board well i wouldn't even know where to begin it's a very very different set of rules and parameters yeah um and so but it was good to understand you're clever and you've done chemistry you know what i did a lot of work by myself. So I remember during that whole period, there was about a six-year period where I would learn Western cookery and try to understand. I knew nothing.

I remember I used to go to cooking college. I had no idea what they were talking about. They were talking about julienne this and this and brunoise that. And I also had to wing it because I didn't want to sign up to level one or level two because that was just like putting your socks on. So you'd done your degree by this time? I done my degree and then your dad passed away yeah trying to keep the kitchen going so what I know at that point I was doing university I was going to work going to university because you know when you go to LSU and go up to like three hours a week whatever it is

then I'd go to work then I'd go to evening college twice a week then I'd go back to work again and I did that for like two years and then after that I decided to go to China so I went to China because my mum well I told my mum I wanted to go and then she rang up all her friends in the industry. She must have been so pleased you wanted to go. No she was like are you sure you don't want to study law? Oh no! No I forgot to say

But didn't she want To keep the restaurant going No I think my mum Was just giving up By that point She was just like tired Was she cooking No my mum's a turbo cook

And my mum used to Send us to school With sugar sandwiches And back then Back then when it Wasn't illegal Like if I gave my kids Sugar sandwiches now

I'm pretty sure The teachers would be Ringing me up How old was your dad When he passed away? No, I think he was like under 50. Shit. Yeah, under 50.

He died very, very quickly. It was like a four-month process from being diagnosed to passing away. So yeah, it was just that whole period was just kind of just not really understand what's going on, Just roll with it. And then my mum was just like, okay, you want to go to China? You sure you don't want to go to law school?

I'd enrolled for law school and I'd got in. And on the way to the induction, I just didn't show up. I was on the tube to Temple Station and I just got off the train and went back. I'd paid for enrolment and everything. That was the day to go collect your books or something. And you for me yeah and I remember I read the thing they said bring a suitcase I was like sod that like anything yeah they're like bring a suitcase for your books I'm like this is not for me and what did you think about when you were on that train on the way home were you like I'm gonna have to tell my mum I don't know my mum at that point in time in that

point in in our lives she was very kind of supportive for a Chinese mother in the sense that she was just kind of like you do what you have to do I'm going to continue to nag the hell out of you but you do what you want to do and we'll we'll we'll work with it and I remember even when we opened the restaurant in 2012 it was carnage like you know we we sit now sit down now with a two mission style restaurant and we we now are so fortunate to have 30 odd incredible staff at the restaurant but when we first opened i didn't know what i was doing we'd ran out we did i forgot to buy the black bin bags like we forgot i forgot so much stuff i didn't understand how to run a restaurant properly um because it was all kind of

self-taught um and you know the only way to kind of deal with it at the time was just to get frustrated and to get angry and i remember we we must have lost maybe 50 chefs in like a month why because you could cross cross is a very nice word yeah yeah cross cross in the mildest form um but yeah it was it was uh and it was only because I was so immature. You're very, very biddable. You're very kind and nice. I'm just like Jekyll and Hyde. I've seen him on the past month.

I'm a lot better now. I'm a lot better. I think since I've had kids, I've been a lot better. Tell me about that time when you were in China and you went to China after you kind of committed to the cause. Does he need to be a sovereign? I love that Andrew's come here and had to steam his fish in the oven with a very clever contraption. When I was in China, I tell you what. It's delicious. If you read my official bio, it's very much like when people go to Australia for a gap year and they come back with dreadlocks.

And they make out that they found their soul. And now, oh, yes, I really found myself. And then they went to Thailand and and cambodia for like three days and they think that they they became the dalai lama over the overnight um and actually when i went to china people think that actually it was this big massive kind of search for mecca of of chinese gastronomy actually the truth of the matter is is that i went there because um i was bored number one um number two um i wanted to improve my chinese okay and because how did you not did you not speak okay my again did you not speak it at home we we spoke it

at home um but i used to bunk chinese school because it was on saturday so do you speak cantonese or mandarin so i speak cantonese but obviously all my chefs speak mandarin so i've had to learn to I thought Mandarin was the more common it is yeah it is you know Cantonese is a very and that's what they teach at school exactly because it's useful you know Cantonese is like learning Kuala Lumpur it's like you'd learn French instead and you know just because it makes more sense because more people speak it um so you know when I went to China it was like you know I'd really want to learn more about my Chinese I want to learn more about my Chinese. I want to learn more about being Chinese.

And I want to learn more about Chinese food. Because actually, you know, when you grow up in a Chinese restaurant in London, you kind of understand in the back of your head that it's probably not exactly the same as cooking food in China. So my mum was great. You know, they hooked me up with loads of friends in different hotels and restaurants all over China. And I just basically spent time with all of them and working in these different hotels and they're all very kind of accepting of me and they were a little bit confused of while I was there because they were like you're educated right and like yeah well I went to university

that's what you mean and they're like well why are you in the kitchen because being in the kitchen yeah okay so you know they'll be like oh don't don't do that don't worry about that that's fine let's go out um and i'll be like constantly no no no i want to i want to stay and i want to i want to help you no no no let's go to the karaoke bar i'm like no no no like um oh karaoke no no i thought me in chinese karaoke bars um so no so i went there and I I spent time there and people always say you know did you did you learn a lot did you learn loads of recipes I think the the most important thing I did learn was about diversity that fact that you know China

is a country um that borders 14 different other countries you know know, it's got one of the oldest gastronomies in the world with 1.4 billion people at the moment. There's so much diversity. And actually, recipes are just recipes. Once you've learned the basics of cookery, the rest of it is kind of understanding culturally and psychologically like the approach to cooking. And then I came back and thought I knew everything,

like every young chef. And obviously, you don't know anything. And then I came back, I thought I knew everything, like every young chef. And obviously you don't know anything. So you put together a menu, you think you're going to win every award under the sun and you think that you're going to be the best thing since sliced bread. And obviously you end up having an absolute nightmare. Are you a bit cocky? No, I'm not.

Openly. To myself. I won't be that way. No, no, I'm'm not I don't think you are at all um but I have very high expectations of myself in the sense that I think that I can always do better even though maybe I can't but I mean so you go from not cooking yeah eating in the restaurant and then making this decision for the family and like commitment. When did you fall in love with cooking or have you ever fallen? You must have, right?

Yeah. When did they like, was there a light bulb moment with a particular dish or something or a moment or a meal that just went, oh, OK, now I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to be doing. It's not bloody law. It's not chemistry. It's kind of, or do you feel like you're doing the right thing? No, no, now I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to be doing. It's not bloody law. It's not chemistry. It's kind of... Or do you feel like you're doing the right thing now? No, no, it was weird. I remember very well.

I was in a Sichuanese restaurant in Sichuan. And my Sichuanese Chinese is non-existent. So I didn't really understand what was going on. And I just kind of... I used to call it Russian roulette. You just kind of go on a menu and just point at something. And you just hope for the best. And do people expect you to know what's going on because you're chinese yeah yeah yeah so they

you know they're talking away to you in citroenese and you pretend you understand it because you're not you know and is there a dialect like scottish or yeah citroenese is a dialect yeah so is it like geordie or no it's probably even more different like you know in a sense like geordie probably if you spoke english you could probably understand Geordie quite easily but actually it's quite different okay and I remember when I ordered it what came out was like a pond of water with like a mushroom floating in the inside and I just remembered that was the tournament where I thought wow like Chinese food is really diverse and I think there's a story to be told here

in the sense that I think Londoners and a lot of Western culture... We just don't know. We just don't know. And I think that was the light bulb moment. It wasn't so much about I love cooking, which I do, but it was more about the fact that... But it's everything to do with the whole cuisine.

And it's the fact that there is this story to be told and this message to be given on challenging people's misconceptions. And I think that was the lightbulb moment. So what I'm going to do now, I'm going to do something called scolding with oil. Oh, do you want to watch this? I'm going to take a picture. This going to do something called scolding with oil. Oh, mum do you want to watch this? I'm going to take a picture of you. This is a very, very Chinese technique.

Hold on, wait, don't scold ya! Have you found that lots of people are doing, because you know, Fallow are doing a kind of turbo head at the moment. Do you feel like it's in, no, I don't know who was doing the head before but like... Jessie can we have a proper bowl please? It's... what? Andrew do you need... Jessie please! But do you feel like it's kind of it's encouraged... well does the whole sustainability move... well people moving towards more sustainable eating or do you think that...

I think the thing about Chinese cuisine is that it's always been about sustainability. Using every part. Head and nose, head to tail, whatever it is. And although it might be on trend at the moment, it's something which is just part of Chinese cuisine. Yeah. And it's a lot with a lot of kind of ethnic minority cuisines, right? You know, this idea of salting or preservation or fermenting. Like kimchi and things.

Well, exactly. You're like, you suckers, we've been doing this all the time. Exactly. And even if you look at kind of like historical Jewish recipes, there'll be a lot of salted stuff for preservation. There'll be fermented. And the big thing is that just because there hasn't been a big massive PR message behind it that people think

that fermenting was invented in Nordic countries five years ago is just ridiculous really and so what I want people to understand when they have something like this is that I'm not reinventing

the wheel, I'm not reinventing the wheel. I'm just trying to celebrate something which has been part of our gastronomy for thousands of years. Yeah. It's just a bit of rice if you want it. Oh, look at her. She trussed it up with the spring onions.

Where's your kind of go-to place when you're not thinking about A-Wong? Yeah. You're switching off. Where's a few restaurants that you absolutely love? Sure. So number one, we have two kids. So we need to have a restaurant where kids can go to,

which is a bit of a problem these days. Because obviously when you're a chef and you're in the industry, you don't want to put your friends in an awkward situation. You don't want to bring them to someone's dining room and then they trash the place. I know. Because I've made that mistake once or place. I know. I know. Because, you know, I've made that mistake once or twice.

You know, because chefs are so nice. They're kind of like, Andrew, don't worry. My kids are the same. You know, you've got to bring them so they can learn how to behave in a dining room. I'm like, really? And then you go, all right, let's try. You're like, when can we bring out pepper pig or pawpaw chop? That's it.

But actually, as a diner, I love really kind of um number one spicy and number two kind of homely food so I love a Pakistani restaurant in East London called Lahore Kebab House. Oh yeah it's fantastic. Yeah. Where is it? Commercial Road? Yeah just off Commercial Road. Okay. And then I love to go to um I love to go to Chinatown because I still have. Where do you go in Chinatown? So my friend's restaurant is... My friend's dad's restaurant, who still remembers my grandfather because they traded times crossed, even though he's a lot younger than my grandfather.

He used to own a restaurant called Harbour City and now they moved it next to the supermarket, so it's New Longfong. New Longfong, I think they've been there. Yeah, I'm sure you have. Right next to the supermarket so it's New Longfong so we were there. New Longfong I think we've been there. Yeah I'm sure you have. Right next to the supermarket. If not his son owns a restaurant in Wingate supermarket it's called reindeer cafe so I'd love to go there for roast Chinese meats. Does Natalie have a look in with the Seychelles cuisine? Yeah. There aren't many Seychelles restaurants in London.

Does she cook at home? Well she does cook a little bit her her mother grandma is an amazing cook like she if you ever go to the seychelles like they might take you on these tours or like you know let's show you creole cuisine but actually natalie's mother's food is the best like octopus curry um no octopus salad crab curry um absolutely and they have these they have these red snappers which put the whole of the world to shame because they're about like four foot long you won't get that in a fish you would never get yeah exactly

they literally just cut an oil drum in half and cook it on top of the oil drum so and and your kids like and they they want to go out for Chinese food at the weekends and stuff like that. Thanks, darling. My kids are very... Do they like your food? No, they hate it. It's so annoying. They absolutely hate my food. They're like, Daddy, what's your name? Dumpling legend

makes better dumplings than you. I'm like, I don't think so. Deep down, I'm like, raging. That's brilliant. I'll give's brilliant all right i'm giving you the cod but i tell you what i give you the cod chi because i just want you to taste um how different a cod sheet tastes when you cook it inside the face um as opposed to um as opposed to just having it like i'm so happy you've done this Andrew thank you darling nowadays you can buy cod cheeks from the fishmonger

just like a scallop but it's very delicious it's also very spicy get some rice in here or some bingsons there mum is it very hot? mum don't make a scene

drink something get some yoghurt no you're not going to shame me no come on you'll be fine it's alright I'll have a bit of rice

so what is your what is your podcast about so it's called XO Sauced, named after a really famous sauce in Hong Kong called XO Sauce. And what does that taste like? XO Sauce is basically like a really luxurious vinaigrette. And the story is that in Hong Kong in the 1960s,

all the chefs started to compete with one another who could make the most expensive sauce. So they named it after XO because that was like the most revered you know French cognac um at the time and it's basically like dried ham with dried scallops and dried prawns cooked out with some oil and some chili um and you can literally put it on anything it's like oyster sauce and you know Dr. Dr. Mukta who we work with And, you know, Dr. Mukta, who we work with, is constantly, you know, giving me facts. And actually, the important thing is that actually the work that we do ends up being stuff on the menu. Because, you know, the thing is actually for the first five or six years of the restaurant,

we would just take dishes that I like to eat from around China, and then we'd just reproduce them, right? So we'd be like, I love I love black pepper crab so I just want to put black pepper crab on the menu but this is the first time where we've actually gone you know what I just want to cook something where maybe other restaurants don't have on their menus but it it's a reflection of the work that we we talk about and the stories that she tells me so it's kind of combining your social anthropology, sociology, kind of, I don't know, university degree. There's a little bit of that in there.

Yeah, I think so. I think it definitely, I mean... Yeah, your mum should be proud. What are some of the new dishes that you have put onto a Wong menu that have been, yeah, kind of learnt out of this podcast? So another one would be this idea of of celebrating um the journey of columbus going to china all those ingredients in the 1500s so obviously potatoes are not chinese and things like uh tapioca root are not chinese they're kind of south american ingredients and so we've got this this dish which which centers around the fact that when I'm in China, one of the breakfast items that you buy a big sweet potato and they put it into a paper bag for you in the morning and you just chew it while you're walking down the street and going about your morning stuff.

So it ended up being this kind of like barbecued baked sweet potato with like licorice infused soy sauce with fermented black bean and then tapioca pearls. And when you eat it, it really reminds me of eating kind of fatty pork belly, because you get the crust, you get the kind of the gelification of tapioca, and then you get the meatiness from the starchy potato. Which again, taps into a lot of the work that we do about kind of Buddhism and Chinese vegetarianism, which actually, again, Buddhism didn't arrive into China until 180. So a lot of this cuisine is actually originated from India.

You want to be really technical about it. But this idea of taking vegetarianism to another level to mimic textures that you might associate with meat that is something which um buddhist cuisine has really taken to a whole new level you know and you look now you know all this stuff in the supermarket and my cousin works for a really big um fish finger factory um company right um and they're putting millions into r&d on finding uh vegetarian substitutes for meat but actually in china that we've been doing it for thousands of years um across the board with with so many different things this is delicious by the way andrew thank you so much this is so good is good. Is that just your master chef reaction?

No, it's gorgeous, but I couldn't cook it the way you've done it. Why does it not taste oily and you've put oil on it? This is a technique of Hunanese and Sichuanese food. It looks like there's a lot of oil in it, but it doesn't taste oily. No. It tastes quite clean on your palate. Yeah. I'm glad I didn't see it uncooked because it looks fabulous cooked.

Have you had the eye? I'm gonna leave that to Andrew. You sure you don't want it? No. Yeah. You have it darling. You sure? I hope it's not offensive. Eat with good health. So that's the eye. Yeah I know you're a little bit more. Oh he's getting the stone out now. No this is the eye socket. Oh my god. Oh wow. And then this is the, this is the kind of like the the milky interior of the eyeball which you can you can eat around it. Why do you eat around? Okay. Is it like a lychee? No it's like a really overcooked egg yolk. Oh wow I'd never think about it like that. You don't look like you're enjoying

that that much or are you just concentrating about getting this done? It's quite a big eye don't you? I'm not going to lie. Normally when we're eating family meals it's a small sea bass and so the eyeball is a lot smaller. This one's the size of a ping pong ball. How did that feel? No wonder your children just want super noodles. want super noodles. Andrew, this is just a little taste of something. Thank you. It's an apple, honey and walnut cake. And it's a sky

kind of recipe. Is that how you pronounce her name? Glyn... From Somerset House. Would you have some? I'd love some I need to ask you what your last supper is I've always been thinking about this

and actually I think a more interesting question is who would I like to have around the dinner table do both so I'm obsessed by Obama I've got like a really weird kind of like obsession with him I just love the way he speaks and that he's like cool. A good person.

Yeah. Yeah. You can almost like feel it in his voice that he's a nice person. Like annoyingly nice but super intelligent. And then you see Michelle and you're like, oh my God, you're both like the best people. Yeah. And like you deserve each other. So I said him.

And then I was watching the documentary on Bruce Lee yesterday. And so I'd love to. I've never watched that. Lee yesterday. And so I'd love to chat to him. Because he died at 33 and I'm already 39. Oh my God. Yeah, and if he'd lived, he would have changed the world. How did he die? He died of like a heart attack. From like a reaction to a painkiller.

But there were loads of conspiracies about possible other ideas of how he died. And the saddest thing is that he died a month before Enter the Dragon got released, which basically took him into the global stratosphere of Hollywood alias, which he'd been trying so hard to achieve for the whole of his life. So I'd love to have him at the dinner table.

He only got two at the moment. It's bit it's a bit of a sad one any women any women yes they're good we like michelle obama obviously yeah she's got to be there yeah do you have female chefs yes yes i tell you why and i i say this real honestly i i we are so lucky in our kitchen because i haven't done this intentionally but it's the way that I like to work. And I like to have a team around me, which is representative of society, which means you have people from different backgrounds. Yeah, because it wasn't all Chinese people at all. Not only different backgrounds, but all for different ages. So we have one guy who's in his mid 50s.

We have a lady, Maylan, who's, she looks really young, but I think she's like 50-something. Good genes. You know, we have people from Spain, from Bangladesh, from Uzbekistan, from China. And I think that it's so nice

to have that dynamic in a kitchen because actually a lot of kitchens in the country, in the UK, they're very kind of male. rugby team-esque kind of demographic. And when you see these young chefs, when they come into your kitchen, they behave in a very odd way, in the sense like, would you behave like that if there was a lady present? And of course they wouldn't, right?

And I think sometimes just having a nice mix present in a in a working environment everyone adapts you know you're not gonna you're not gonna be misogynistic and overly like ridiculously outspoken when there's a nice mix or there's people to respect in the kitchen we've got 10 more minutes with you and i still haven't got your last meal oh we've got. We've got two guests. Three guests at the moment. Last meal. Dim sum.

Definitely dim sum. Where do you go for your dim sum? You do it at your restaurant, don't you? Yeah, we do it at the restaurant. On Sunday? No, we don't open on Sundays. Why don't you open on Sunday? Because Natalie will divorce me. I know, but it is a very tiny thing to have Sunday meals. Yeah, you know, we just have to make Saturday Sunday.

Okay. Saturday's are the new Sundays. That's quite good. So you do Saturday dim sum? We do everyday dim sum. Oh, okay, fine. And the one thing we do, which I think we're the only restaurant... You serve it in the evening?

No. We serve it as like a platter, but not as a whole menu. I think we're the only restaurant evening no we serve it as like a platter but not as a whole menu i think we're the only restaurant in the world that serve dim sum individually so i'm pretty sure when you go to dim sum like there's three in a basket you have one each and then you're staring at that last piece right you're going well who's going to eat that um so that was a massive bug for me when i was opening the restaurant so i was like we're gonna we're gonna sell it individually which is absolutely a nightmare for logistically for the kitchen um but I think it's important to do so that guests can try everything can you get it ready beforehand and then just

steam it at the end oh you have to do that yeah yeah yeah you know because we've been up since like seven o'clock making it um uh so it'll definitely be dim sum. It would definitely be some kind of soup noodles. Because I love noodles. And then dessert. Again, it would be probably something really... It would either be like Indian mango or like mango sticky rice. Or it was like a French dessert. It'd probably like, it'd be like Pierre Coffman's like pistachio souffle or like a passion fruit souffle. Only because like, you know, people always make out that souffle is like really difficult.

It's dead easy. They're not difficult to make at all, right? But actually I love that romance that everyone's believed that souffles are impossible to make. Well, you've got to get the liquid right. You do. Because otherwise you're going to end up with a big soup at the bottom. But actually I don't mind make. Well, you've got to get the liquid right. You do. Because otherwise you're going to end up with a big soup at the bottom. Actually, I don't mind that.

No, I don't. But you're not supposed to. Sure. But my big thing about the souffle is that the inside needs to be wet. Yeah, me too. And I love it, however, the bigger the rice. Oh, really? You're a size person.

Yeah, I like size. Yeah, size matters, Andrew. On your souffle, the height. Another person that I'd love to have my grandmother there. Kim. Kim, because my grandmother never saw me really become a chef. I think she came once when we first opened a restaurant. when we first opened a restaurant.

But when it became a restaurant which I was really proud of and becoming part of my identity being Chinese, she never really got to eat my food. Besides that, what else would I have? That answers your question, right? That was quite decisive. Yeah. Drink of choice. What did I drink? You're not a, no? That was quite decisive. Yeah. Drink of choice. What did I drink?

You're not a big drinker, I can tell. No. Just not as big as you, Mum. No. No, I'm not. I'm not a massive drinker. G and T. Okay.

Yeah, I love a G and T. G and T. This champagne I really like. Well, not champagne. Sorry, sparkling wine. This goes really well with dim sum. Oh, does it? The one that we had, really well.

So do you serve that at your restaurant? Yeah, we do. To me it's got like a hint of strawberry, but everyone else... It's got a sweetness to it. Everyone else in the wine world disagrees with me. I think it tastes because of the green taste, almost happily I thought. Well that's it. I love the fact that actually I'm an absolute philistine when it comes to wine.

And I'm happy to let people know that I'm a philistine. What else do I do? For old time's sake, my wife loves mango bubble tea. I've never had bubble tea. It's tapioca, isn't it? It's tapioca. It's big balls of black tapioca pearls inside like mango juice. What else have we got?

Oh sour beer! There's a really cool company. We've just started serving it in a restaurant actually. It's new to me too. But it's a sour beer with kind of like a pruney kind of undertone to it. And again this is education on the job right? So Danny says try this with either some Peking duck or with some spiced lamb. Because of the prune.

Oh, yes. Yeah, it really, and I love watching customers' reactions to it. Because, you know, when they're having a taste of a menu, you say to them, oh, this is a sour beer. You can see in their eyes, they're like, I'm not convinced. Well, maybe the words's an odd word to use is it really sour? it is sour it's got like a pecan note to it

but it's got this pruney kind of palette to it which is really nice as a beer to accompany food I mean you've just said you're not a drinker but you've just named four drinks so I appreciate that that's amazing

I want to know final question Andrew Wong I mean, you've just said you're not a drinker, but you've just named four drinks. So I appreciate that. That's amazing. I want to know, final question. Andrew Wong, what would your mother's or your grandmother's worst table manner be? If they were going to see somebody doing something at the dinner table that would be offensive to them, what would it be? To them or to me? To them. My grandfather's biggest one was holding a rice bowl with two hands yeah like that because in in traditional Chinese culture if you cup a rice bowl with two hands with your hands underneath it implies that you're begging yeah and he always said that was massively

disrespectful to the family because you're not begging and so he would always say that and my grandfather again was really really old-fashioned so he didn't believe in people being left-handed yeah is anybody left yeah my sister's left hand is for growing up for years my grandfather tried to get her to use her chopsticks on the right hand because he said that you know left-handedness is not it's not acceptable it's so funny because like i think of left-handed as like creative yeah yeah exactly andrew what's your podcast called just so everyone can hear it what like it's called xo soused as an soused as an s-o-u-s-e-d and xo is an xo kiss oh and has it launched yes and so and you're just you're kind of doing the

we're doing an ongoing each week doing the episode we're doing it ongoing each week as I said we're trying to intrigue people about a particular Chinese technical ingredient amazing I think you will

thank you so much this is we've tried to have this in the diary for a good since I came so it's been like over two years I'm so happy

that we got to have you over I'm so glad that mum got to witness the I mean charisma much. Oh, gorgeous. Yes, definitely.

And now I need to go and eat more of his food. Yeah, now we look forward to seeing you in a restaurant. No more excuses. Coming, coming, coming. Thank you so much. No, absolute pleasure. Thanks, darling. Well, Mum, I told you I've been trying to get him ever since I went for his food,

and that was in October 2018. I wanted this guy on. Wasn't he fab? Absolutely adored him. So much. So charismatic. So so charismatic so much information and so much he should be running a course on chinese food he's the most knowledgeable person about food i've ever come across i mean i that's what i do love it when we have a chef on. Yeah. Particularly that chef. A chatty chef.

I mean, he was, yeah, he was fun. Yeah. I loved it. Thank you so much to Andrew Wong for coming on. And thank God he ate the eye. Yeah, I mean, I felt like he struggled a bit with that whole eye. Yeah, I think he did, darling. Oh, big bollocks.

Yeah. But yeah, thank you, Andrew, for coming on, on his his day off and he must be zonked he's a delight yeah an absolute delight I mean you probably heard it in there but A Wong

get yourself there good luck getting a table and also XO Soust go and listen to his podcast if you enjoyed all the stories that he told you tonight

I'm sure there's a load more yeah go to his podcast he should everyone should listen to it I'm If you enjoyed all the stories that he told you tonight. I'm sure there's a load more. Yeah. Go to his podcast. Everyone should listen to it. I'm going to go for Saturday Dim Sum. Or maybe I'll go for Tuesday Dim Sum.

Who knows? And I'm taking those super noodles home with me. Okay. Good. Thank you, Andrew. And thank you for listening. Thank you.