Table Manners with Jessie and Lennie Ware - S12 Ep 10: Claudia Roden

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

This is a huge huge deal. We have the living legend, the queen of the cookbook, Claudia Roden, join us on Table Manners this week. Much to mum’s delight (and instruction), Claudia provided the dish! She bought a delicious fish soup and mum made Claudia’s light as a feather yogurt cake for pud. Claudia talks to us about her latest book ‘Med’ for which she traveled around France, Spain and Italy to collect recipes. She tells about growing up in Egypt and then moving to London (via Paris) and making it her absolute mission to record and preserve traditional Jewish recipes. And we discover that ten years ago I ate Claudia's daughters ice lollies in New York! What a small and delicious world.Thank you for such a special and inspiring evening, listening to you talk not only was an incredible lesson, but you managed to stop mum and I having a tiff too. Claudia, we adore you. X Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Table Manners. I'm Jessie Ware and I'm here with Mum and she's looking pretty relaxed, aren't you Mum? This is my idea of heaven. Are we going to have to change the format of Table Manners? I think we are after this. We have got someone I consider a goddess. An icon. An icon in the culinary world. I've got more than one of her books already and I've just got her new book, Med. So I've always kind of expected this to be a present from you

or somebody. It's a book that everybody should have in their house, especially maybe Jewish families. The Jewish cookbook. Yeah, I mean that's the Jewish cookbook. It is The Jewish cookbook. Yeah, I mean, that's the Jewish cookbook. It is the Jewish cookbook. It won awards internationally. The Observer gave her a Lifetime Achievement Award recently. She's just a wonderful woman and she's a bit of a goddess and someone that I hugely admire. We have Claudia Rodin on today.

So excited. You see how much Claudia Roden has inspired so many chefs from Ottolenghi obviously to Ravinda Bogle I mean there's so many that have so much love and admiration for this woman and we aren't well you have cooked for her I'm blown away by her new cookbook because it's so easy I've made her Turkish yogurt cake which is like a cheesecake took me 20 minutes to knock up 45 minutes in the oven and she's bringing the main which is music to our ears I've just come from rehearsals for my tour where I've sung and danced and pretended that I'm not a mother of three when I'm trying to loosen those hips is that the tour that's just the appetizer before the real tour goes on next year what are you talking about yeah well yes the

the tour that is pretty much sold out that we've had to add an extra palladium date to yes scared all i can say is let's hope there's a defibrillator around let's hope your son's in the audience now um we are so touched that so many of you have decided to buy tickets just to see do you think they think you're going to sing like last time oh my god you remember people bought tickets and were really disappointed when they realized maybe you'll have to give one song, darling. No, Mum. I think you might. There's a real, you know, there has to be a definite, definitive line between my pop star career and my...

Okay, do you think I should sing? Well, Sex on Fire, yeah? Yeah. There won't be any singing. Maybe there'll be some singing, I don't know. Get the audience to join in. We are really keen to get you involved in the live show. So why don't you just email us and say what you expect and want from this show. We have our own ideas.

We'd like to hear what yours are. I do hope we are going to be able to share food and COVID restrictions by next year. We'll have relaxed a bit so we can share some food. Yeah. What for the... Darling, I'm hoping to bring chicken soup out to the nation. Oh my God, little shots of chicken soup. Little shots, imagine. God, Mum, didn't your chicken soup go down well on Sunday brunch?

It did. Mum, it was great. It was delicious. It was? It was really good. How did it feel, somebody else cooking your recipe? Very nice. I'm really happy. Executive chef over here.

I did have to move in on the matzo balls. You did? Yeah, and it was the right thing to do. She was very, so what happens on Sunday brunch, I'm sure everyone expects, they kind of prep your meal because obviously mum wasn't going to get to Sunday brunch at three in the morning to start the chicken soup. There was a lovely aroma as we walked into the studio. Reminded me of grandma's house. Yeah. And so they'd done it and they were so great, the chicken soup. There was a lovely aroma as we walked into the studio. Reminded me of grandma's house.

Yeah. And so they'd done it and they were so great. The food, what do you call them? Food economists. Food economists. They were just the most delightful group of people. But mum said, those matzo balls aren't going to work. And I went, don't worry, we'll make some more.

She went, okay. And she like did the thing. But she asked me to make them. She said, show me how you do it. Did you? Yeah. I made the ones that went in the suit. Oh, did you?

Yeah, didn't you see me do it? I thought you were in hair and makeup at that point. No, darling, I made the matzo balls. How did you find live TV? I was beside myself with anxiety. Oh, please. Jessie, I was really frightened. I was not only frightened, I was knackered

because I was up at five o'clock in the morning to get there. Welcome to show business. Yeah, darling. My friends' comments were that they thought I was very frightened at the beginning. I looked younger than they thought that I deserved to look. Is she here? She's brought the fish soup.

Let's go. Claudia Roden, coming up on Table Manners. Claudia Roden, you are in our house with a glass of white wine. You've brought dinner over. Thank you very much. Already you were my mum's favourite person, but even more so, mum is very thrilled that she didn't have to cook tonight and we're actually cooking your food thank you and she said my yogurt cakes work jesse oh what have you already have you checked the yogurt cake

she said she's going to take it off the bottom and show me how to do it how how are you I'm well how's promoting a new cookbook does it feel different this time around yes it's more it's more more than before before there wasn't promotion there wasn't much in the old days do you like the promotion now do you like it do you like that you're having to do a podcast on a Monday I'm very happy to be here with you this is one of the highlights that's really really sweet um yeah I feel like potentially your family members had something to do with you saying yes to this yes because I just asked them do you have you heard of Jessie and Lenny. Oh! How exciting. They were so excited, all of them. So, there you are.

They phoned me today saying, are you going? Oh, my goodness. What are you wearing? They told me to wear the blue shirt. Oh, you look gorgeous. Oh, stop it. You look fantastic.

I love that scarf, actually. It's gorgeous. Very smart. It's one of my daughters who makes them oh what does she absolutely it's beautiful she has them made I mean she designs them and they manufacture them oh my goodness we need to buy them so so are any of your I don't know how many children do you have like who who who's this family that you're talking about like to paint the picture for us I've got three children and six grandchildren the grandchildren you know people expect babies but no they're 32 and 20s and are any of them good cooks they are and during the pandemic they all cooked and they were the people who tested my recipes or retested because

I've been testing them all the time because I didn't just do them now or during the pandemic I've been doing it for four years that book oh that book's been going four years so yeah do you take constructive criticism from your children yes and the thing is i learned from them what about young people for instance they want harisa everywhere and and they come when they come but when they come. But when they're testing, I'm making them test for timing. For, you know, is it too much? Is there too much of one thing? But they sometimes said, you know, I would put a bit of sumac. And I'd say, well, I won't put sumac in a Moroccan tagine.

Because sumac is not Moroccan. No, it isn't it's not no I wouldn't put tahina in a Moroccan thing because it's not Moroccan so have you played with any new ingredients that maybe you hadn't played with before or do you feel no no no because the thing is, I have been a traditionalist all these years, decades. And I love tradition. I love, you know, a dish that's come out from a civilization, from a culture. And I've seen people cooking and eating and it's moving to me. You know, I just feel, you know, it's precious.

But I've changed. And I've changed for the first time in this book. Oh, yeah. Because this book, I didn't go out to research a cuisine. I didn't go to think, I'm going to find out everything they've got. Even the things are not so good but I want to know what do they cook and exactly I never allowed myself to change a single thing when I discovered the dish somewhere and they wouldn't want me to if they gave it to me it's got to be like that but then when i was 80 i decided i can't travel

to research anymore because i can't carry my suitcase and i can get someone to do that for you i know but i'm not used to telling people to do oh no you need to learn that i'm very good at it it's a skill you need. I know. I've got to, because I'm going away in two and a half weeks. Where are you going? I'm going first to Istanbul and then to Paris. Are you going to Istanbul and Paris to promote the book?

No, I'm going to get an award from the Federation of Chefs of Turkey. Oh, how fantastic. Yeah. That's a big thing. It is a very big thing because I go a long, long way in Turkey, you know, starting there maybe 45 years ago. Oh, my goodness. How did it all begin? It began when the Jews came out of Egypt.

Yes. Is that where you're from originally? Yeah. You were born in Egypt. You're Egyptian. I'm Egyptian and we're Jewish and when the Swiss crisis happened we were the collateral damage. And nobody mentioned us here or anywhere, but 2,000 Jews left within weeks at that time, because Israel had joined France and England to attack Egypt, because Gamal Abdel Nasser, the president of Egypt, had nationalized the Suez Canal. And the Suez Canal had been built by French and British companies. And they manned it, so they made money of it continually, and they built it.

But he would not even compensate them. So they decided to go to war. And they asked Israel to join them. Israel was already at war, sort of, since it became a state. But it did join them, and they attacked, and they attacked from the air. But then the United Nations and america said stop you can't do that they couldn't do that so they stopped but then uh gamal abdel nasser said the jews have to go how old were you when you got kicked out of well you know i wasn't actually

personally kicked out because when i was 15, I went to school in Paris. So you lived in Egypt till you were 15? Yeah. Can you paint a picture of the dinners that were the common dinners on your table for our listeners to hear about Sephardic food, I'm presuming, you know, but I'm sure it was a big old mix of food on the table yeah well my grandparents three of my grandparents came from Syria from Aleppo to Egypt and they came all at the turn of the last century it means in 80 exactly 1892 and they came with all their children a family they had 11 children he was the youngest they were all girls except your father and he was the prince is that why they kept trying they kept trying no, they kept having lots of children, all of them anyway.

But they wished they had boys, I assure you. Why is that? Just because? Nobody wanted girls. Yes, they didn't, even amongst the Jews. It's a story, darling. It's lots of cultures didn't want girls because they couldn't continue the name and all of those things. also had to pay a dowry and if you had two girls you had two dowries if you had more you would spend your whole life just working for the dowries was your family a wealthy family were

they yes we were wealthy enough and we had a very very good life for me it was a marvelous life it was I just see it as very very happy because we were in actually a community of 80,000 and we knew a lot of each other we felt I felt almost everybody was my

cousin and we went to the club it was the Gezerus sporting club it was called an english style club and we went to school we had a cook we had a servant we had a nanny and we traveled abroad after the war we would go to france and italy holiday. So we were wealthy enough. Most of the people that I knew were wealthy, and they were merchants. And my family, they were merchants.

So I presume your mother was cooking. No. She had a cook. Oh, no, of course, the cook. So is this the cook? But did your mum train her to cook Jewish food? Yes. Because the cooks, all the cooks of the people we knew and our own,

they all came from villages. They didn't know how to cook even Egyptian food of the wealthier Egyptians or they knew village food. And so they always stayed with the same family. I say they because this is what happened to also my cousins and all the relatives. And yes, your mother taught them everything. And so they cooked on a daily basis. But when they entertained, the mothers would get together in the dining room

to do the little things like the stuffed vine leaves or and chat over them and you know the cousins the aunts would bring their cook to help in the kitchen so they would do the prepping and they would do the peeling and the things and we as children got to do little things you know like making tiny bracelets just rolling the dough and then making now i buy here taralini have you seen taralini at waitress uh so it is similar we called it kak so they're like round yeah i've seen them yes yeah but so we did them we rolled them we did this and then you dip them in egg and then in sesame seeds. Are they like the hard biscuits? Savory biscuits?

Yeah. Oh, I've had them in turkey. Yeah. And they're delicious. They're quite buttery, but like they're hard and delicious. What do they call them in turkey? I don't know. No, we're different.

They are different because we did them with oil. Okay. No butter. Oh, okay. Because the Jews used a lot of oil. because of milk and meat were you kosher no no nobody of my generation was it means even my parents stopped being kosher but all the grandparents were but would you have eaten shellfish or... Prawns. Prawns. And you'd have eaten pork? Well, it probably wasn't available.

Ham. Because all the Jews had their tea parties catered by a caterer called Groppies. And Groppies, now they were also a tea room where you had ice creams. We would go all the time to have ice creams. This is in Cairo? Yes, they were Swiss. They would come with the sandwiches that were ham. So you live in Hampstead Garden suburbs now.

I presume your family would like you to cook every evening and day if they could have you cook. Do you still enjoy you cook do you still enjoy cooking do you still love it yeah and i did cook every day because i was a single mother when my youngest was six and my oldest wasn't yet 12 right okay and i cooked every single day they had never we never went out to eat when they were young. Never. When they went to America, because they went to America for two years. Why did they go to America?

When they finished university. And they went, he found a job for a year as an architect, because he's an architect. And then my daughter went there and she stayed. She kept coming back all the time, twice a year. But she decided to stay in New York. She's an artist. Is she still there?

She's the one that made these scarves. Yes. I love that scarf, Jessie. She made them there while she was there. What's her name? Nadia. And what's the name of her scarf? Rodin. Nadia Rodin. Yes,'s the name of her scarf? Rodin.

Nadia Rodin. Yes, and her scarves are Nadia Rodin. They're so beautiful. But she made them, yes, for Neiman Marcus at one time, but she makes for the Metropolitan Opera. Wow. She did them with their opera things with them. And what is your third, your other child?

Other child? You've got three? Yes. Now, she is into finance. Luckily, somebody. Someone knows what they're doing, yeah. So none of them went into food? No.

Because they can just eat your food and enjoy that, I guess. There's only one who's gone into food. eat your food and enjoy that i guess there's only one who's gone into food actually nadia has written because she started making ice lollies in new york yeah and she made them herself and she had to do them first at home and then she was on sky line is Oh, the high line. High line. I've had a nice lolly on the high line. It's probably your daughter's. No, but that was three years ago. No, it was a few years ago.

Before, yeah. She started, she was there, the first person who was there with a cart. And what were her flavours? Do you remember? She had several flavours and she it must have been her.

I've definitely, and I don't really stop for ice lollies that much it was a while back more than three years ago It would be maybe ten. It would be twelve. Well, how long was she there for? Because she was there for actually one year.

I've definitely had a nice lolly. Why would you never eat a lolly? Because it looked really good. So of course it makes sense now. It was Claudia Roden's daughter. Now this all makes sense. Because she only used fresh fruit. Fresh everything.

It was very original at the time of your lolly i think it was like a berry or something like that it was some kind of berry or like did it have hibiscus i don't know something oh yes she did hibiscus okay i've had your daughter's ice lolly yeah you should have got a scarf while you were there yeah that's so funny because honestly they looked so delicious and sounded amazing. It was a really warm day. And I stopped for one. And yes, and I actually might have done the chopped pistachios because I was there. Oh my goodness. No, because I was at Yale for a semester as a visiting fellow or visiting artist.

How is that? Such a wonderful moment. But then I would come every weekend and stay in New York. And then I would go where she was, because she had to rent a place. She couldn't do them from home. And she would hire them. Other people were there. It was a big place.

And I would chop the thing, do the cutting. Yeah, it was all done by hand. But then, because her little girl, she had a baby, was crying, she stopped. But my grandson, Cesar, he's called Cesar Roden. Great name. He is her nephew he went there to work he would have been selling the the lollies with his friend liam and he didn't go to university he just wanted to go there and so she sent him the cards and she sent him the recipes and she sent him the machine to make it so he started

making it and he's now selling through okado that's amazing he started making it in my son's house you know every room in the house was the lolly place but So what are they called, his lollipops? Ice Kitchen. Ice Kitchen. And they are still all fresh, no chemicals, no nothing. That's very good to know. That's very, very good to know that I can have another one. I've got a delivery coming this week. Perfect. I'll get them for the children.

Ice Kitchen, yeah. So how old were your children when your first book came out? They were very little. The first book came out in 1968. But I'd been working on it for a long, long time. And she was born in 65. But Claudia, where were you cooking? You've never cooked in a restaurant, have you?

So you cooked at home. And how did people discover your cooking? I just cooked because the Jews who came out from Egypt... So after Paris, I came here to art school. And I was at art school when suddenly my parents arrived and a whole lot of refugees and they were you know there was a camp here in Manchester they were put up because they went all over they dispersed in the whole world and but a lot of them were passing for about 10 years passing through through London or staying here if they were allowed to settle because they weren't all allowed to settle we were because my mother had a British passport because she was a Sassoon she was a Sassoon from Syria not from England

but they had British passports I knew Sassoon's at school oh really? it was a grand family it was a very grand family who started in Iraq and India and so we were allowed to stay but so I was meeting

and meeting people I went to work for Alitalia but all these Egyptians were exchanging recipes because there hadn't been a single cookbook in egypt i had never seen a printed recipe so it's all handwritten handed down the generations from mother to daughter that's's how, and by seeing. And so nobody, but some people had them written down by hand. And so people who had never exchanged recipes before,

they never did. You didn't exchange with other families. You did your own. And when you entertained, you entertained with your own food. But so there, people were saying, I'll never see you again. So give me a recipe and I'll remember you. That's very romantic. I'll remember you when I cook the recipe. How lovely.

That's all they had to give because they left everything behind. And that's when I started writing down. And I became totally obsessed, thinking, this is the most important thing I can do, to write down, because otherwise we'll never read it again. But of course we do. And, you know, it's Turkish, it's Lebanese it's Syrian it exists but for us it was how we ate it we didn't know whether we'd ever eat again that's why my idea

of traditional food is important because I know what it means for a recipe to come from a country and be treated as though it's your roots, it's your identity, it's who you are. And even the smell tells you who you are. The smell of Egypt is cumin, coriander and garlic frying. That's the smell in my building. When you took the lift, you could see everybody's smell. I have to just say that I've made your yoghurt cake, which I'm'm so excited about because not only does it look amazing and smelt lovely but it was so quick to make yes and there's I've looked at recipe after recipe and I was showing Alice our producer and there's so many dishes that I absolutely know I

can make that's not too overwhelmingly god you've got have, stand on one leg and do a shake of ras hanout or something. But it's just all beautiful dishes that I'd feel more confident cooking. Oh, thank you. Well, because you see, I am a home cook. And all my research was with home cooks. And when I started researching the Mediterranean which was when they all left home I decided the day they leave I will leave too and I'll travel in the Mediterranean and that's what I did for that from then on that's where I did my research. And I wanted to go and do home cooking.

And in those days, the only real cooking was home cooking in those countries. Because if you went to a grand restaurant, although I couldn't afford grand restaurants anyway, but you got French cuisine. Yeah. but you got French cuisine in Spain in Italy everywhere even in Egypt in all the hotels and all the things I didn't go to Egypt then

I went since several times but I had to find women because it was always women cooking so how did you find these women? well I started with contacts and they from here from people do you know anybody and they would introduce me to somebody else

and they would say which town are you going because i would go and meet them but I never waited I mean I didn't waste my time I just thought I'm coming here and every minute is going to be fruitful and what I did was everybody I met I asked them what is your favorite dish? And then to men, they had lots of favorite dishes, but women had recipes as well. And occasionally, it happened, they said, I'm just cooking now, do you want to come? Get off the train. I met her on the train in Venice,

and it could be in a pension. I love this idea of Claudia Rodin kind of backpacking around to find, you know... If you had to choose one country that you would most... I mean, besides Egypt, I mean, which cuisine... Am I putting you on the spot of all the Mediterranean? Where do you... Is Turkey where you're most fond of the food? I think Italy.

Italy. Because, you know, I went as a journalist for the Sunday Times magazine and they, I went to every single region and they said, go wherever you want want stay where you want and eat as everything that you can and come back with stories that men would want to read because in those days food was only in women's pages yeah and so also about the cheeses and the things and the way of life. And yes, so I did go. How did you decide what was good for, well, would attract men to read? I didn't know. But I just thought whatever interested me.

And it did. And they did a series. I think it was something, they had 16 pages in the Sunday Times magazine and they had for each region it went every week but I took a year to do that sounds and then they are very funny I'd like to do that job would you whilst the soup just warms up a bit more um we ask all our guests um what their last meal would be which is you know before we're going to a desert island somehow i feel like you'd find a dish on the desert island to make that would probably work and nobody would have had it and it would

have been amazing but imagine there's not going to be much great stuff there um your starter your your main and your dessert and a drink of choice yeah I'm just going to say I had thought of some but I think now I'm going to decide my book let's do it because because yes because it's a great book yeah. Yes. I'm going to decide. So what would be the starter for that? Well, I think maybe of the starters, it could be a cold vegetable dish or it could be tarama.

I was thinking... I love tarama. Because we make a special tarama that is the best, very, very best. Where do you get the cod roe from? Well, you have to get a special corduroy because a lot of them that you get in plastic. There are fishmongers who do.

We've got moxons here. Do you know moxons? But I'm not sure if moxons has. I don't know. How much soap has? Because I go to the Islington one, Steve has. The Islington Lobsons, no? Oh, yes.

But there's up a scale, they might have it. I go to two who do, but otherwise, you know, they are over around. Yeah, just kind of preserved, aren't they? Yeah. Ah, one thing I could have, I mean, something simple, even a potato salad. A potato salad with green olive tapenade. But it's so good i mean there are things that are so simple what would you serve that with just serve it as one of a because you know we always have more than one if i may have two you can have you you can have a mezze, yeah. Go wild. Yeah, but I think there's two favourite of starters for me.

One is roast peppers with baby tomatoes that I just put in a pan. A boiled lemon. A boiled lemon, I boil them. Instead of doing preserved lemon, I prefer boiled lemon that I chop up. I would prefer that because it tastes slightly less disinfectant. Yes.

I don't like preserved lemons to that point. I feel like a bit of a philistine. I don't use them. Well, that makes me feel pretty special. Yeah. So, yeah, it's a boiled lemon. It's a boiled lemon and you chop it up. How long do you boil it for

for half an hour while you're doing the rest of the gentle yeah yeah would this be the red pepper and tomato salad yeah but also an aubergine dish it could be either spicy honey sauce with soft scotch cheese that sounds pretty good oh yeah yes yeah. Love that. Yes, I do love that. Or aubergine with pomegranate dressing and yogurt sauce. That as well. You see... Everything's a winner in this book. I'm telling you.

You see, the thing is, I have got so many, many thousands of Middle Eastern and North African dishes that I didn't want to repeat myself because everybody now has them. All the books, it's gone into many books. I haven't seen any of these recipes. No, so I decided that, yes, I want to surprise still.

This is my favourite new cookbook. often i find cookbooks and there's two or three things and i think they might try that but every page like the roasted celeriac sweet potato and carrot with tarragon vinaigrette yeah it yeah has so few ingredients yet. I've never done that. And now. And it's really good. And, you know, the simple dishes to me are the best. Do you mind being in the kitchen for hours and hours? Or do you quite like that simplicity just because you get it done? Yeah.

But, you know, what I like most of all, and I've found it here, is that if we had interviewed me in the living room, we would have been, I would have felt sort of formal and slightly embarrassed. You don't mind being at the dinner table? Does it feel better being at the dinner table? No, when you're in the kitchen, you're intimate and you don't mind what you say and that's what i discovered traveling and when we are in kitchens which is where i was because that's where my research was that's where it took me i love that and you know, like in Italy, I had a list which I got in Venice of all people who are all home cooks, who are part of a club called I Appassionati di Cucina.

Oh, my goodness. People who are passionate about food. And I could phone them, but I would tell them, because I'm polite, I'll take you out to dinner. And then they'd say, no, no, you come to me. And then, or else we'd go to dinner somewhere, and then I would go to them. So do you like eating out? Do you get as much joy of eating out as you do eating in someone's kitchen?

as much joy of eating out as you do eating in someone's kitchen i think i think the food that people have cooked for me for me is totally unforgettable that's what that's exactly what nigella lawson said does she said um that she was in on holla when she came on the podcast she said she'd been to greece and she said and we said oh where did you eat, she said she'd been to Greece. She'd just been in Greece, hadn't she? And we said, oh, where did you eat? And she said, the best food was when my friend cooked it for me. Actually, that's what I think. But I do, I hardly go to restaurants, even now. But I have a lot of friends who are chefs, and I do go to them. Oh, well, that's all right.

You're lucky. No, but... Which chef do you like going to the house of? Your son. Come on. Yeah, I love your son and I love Honey and Co. Oh, I love them so much. They do. They are.

God, they're so lovely. I love Jacob Kennedy. Where is he? Casa di Lupo. Oh, Casa di Lupo. That's where we should probably take Alex. Good luck getting him. I mentioned Claudia's name. Yeah, do.

Claudia Roden said that you're one of her favourites. But he's a wonderful man. Is he? As well. I adore him. I love them all, really. So, Jessie, I think this is almost enough to eat. Okay, amazing. Whilst you serve it out mom i'm thinking

that you basically oh i didn't tell you the main what would you do for a main the main i would do something which i had as a tagine and i cooked many times as a tagine but i've made it as a bake oh and it's better is that the chicken tray bake? Yes. And it tastes fantastic. And it has all the ingredients of the tagine. But actually, the only extra ingredients there are white wine. And it is an improvement. And my boiled lemon. The boiled lemon is going to be a game changer for me.

So what's the pudding that you're going to go for, dessert? For pudding, I was going to say, I think a rice pudding with a dessert, or no, no. I'm flicking as she's seeing it there i want to cook i i'm i'm sweet tooth i'm sweet too oh you're sweet too yes but um let me see uh there's one yes amandine amandine is marvelous i make it and I love this one. But when the peaches are in season. We're looking at the rose peaches.

And I love the lemon tart. The lemon tart is a tuile merveille. It's different from any that you have here. And it's more easy than you could ever imagine. Ever. So if you've got a sweet tooth, does that, I mean, I know you're excellent at everything, but do you love baking or do you find it finickety? No, I don't bake.

You don't bake? No, the only baking I do is it takes a few minutes. it takes a few minutes and it's because i don't use flour because i use all almonds hazelnuts or or um or walnuts but you you do you have cakes you have they're all walnuts and all you do is eggs sugar and the nut is Is that just... No flour. Just because you don't like the alchemy of... Well, not that you don't like it. It's just it can go wrong quite a lot or not. No, it's because I've loved the others.

And you just grew up on these bases. The chocolate cake of the family here. The chocolate cake of the family here, the birthday cake was always chocolate, almonds and eggs and sugar. And that's all. And everybody has used it. You know, other chefs have taken it, other food writers. So for the people that aren't lucky enough to be sitting at the dinner table with um claudia rodent can you describe what this soup is that we're about to eat so i'm very concerned with the stock because it really is a soup yeah not a stew and it is with just potatoes and fish and it's got to be a firm fish.

And here I put hake because I couldn't find monkfish. Monkfish would have been better. Would you ever do a mixture? Yes. And also, this dish, when I ate it, it had squid and it had also prawns. So you could really bulk it up with lots and it had really yeah it was very true but here it's for people who who are allergic and i love it it's sort of so simple it smells the trick is to make a marvelous stock because now i i gave up on making fish stock out of fish bones and fish heads because they were never good with the fish bones and heads that you get

here and so I use either if I can buy sometimes a good fish stock yeah or I use in this one I put three stock pots that's so good for ease as well, right? If you've got those good stockpots in the cupboard. Yeah, exactly. And I put three, four, two litres of liquid. And also there's wine. There's saffron. First of all, you fry the onions.

Then you put in some garlic, which you fry slightly as well, and saffron. And then you pour the stock or just the water and the stock pots and the wine and fennel seeds as well. Give the flavor. And also some orange peel. And just before you're going to serve, you put the fish in. Because you want it to cook just maybe five minutes, four minutes for hake. But if it's monkfish, it's more. And then at the same time time you prepare an aioli hake I found it today

at Marsha Spencer because all the fishmongers were closed and they had hake thank you so much this is really oh really it's heavenly and I've had a really busy day

and it feels it's just heaven there've had a really busy day and it feels, it's just heaven. There's something so nourishing and reassuring about having a bowl of home-cooked soup. I don't know. For me, it's the best thing. Claudia, when your children were growing up, did they ever reject your food in any way? Did they want just very British cuisine? Yeah, they were embarrassed.

Yes, when my two older ones went on camp in Paris to meet their cousins, the little one was at home alone with me. And I said, now you're alone, what do you want to eat? And she said, fish fingers. And she wants spaghetti in rings from a tin. How did you feel about that? No, I went and bought fish fingers. I said, here you are.

But yes, they dreamt of fish fingers. And I did give it to them when they were desperate. But actually, they ate everything that I was testing. Really, I was testing things that, you know, like for the Middle Eastern. like for the Middle Eastern. At one stage, there was an apple filled with minced meat and fried onions and pine nuts. And they said, can I not eat that? You know, they were really...

But you didn't mind having some frozen fish fingers in the freezer sometimes and just giving it to them? No, I didn't. But yes, they did feel like victims. Yeah. I forgot to say that this soup, if we didn't, the mayonnaise gives it its creaminess. Yes, yes.

And the mayonnaise, actually, it's aioli. Because I use mayonnaise out of a jar. Which mayonnaise did you use? Hellmann's. Which one? The one that's called real. Aioli is usually garlic. You put garlic, you beat in raw garlic, crushed, and lemon.

Do you celebrate Christmas? Yes, and we celebrate everything. Me too. Yeah, we want to enjoy our life. And what will be on the table? What will you be eating? Turkey, like the rest of us? I don't think so this year, no. And I don't know what we'll do.

We always decide very late because we don't know what everybody is doing. All the family, we're 14 with all the grandchildren. We do get together all the time. I mean, at each other's places. And it could be me, it could be one of them who does it. Will everyone help? Oh, yeah.

We all bring something. Do you celebrate the jewish holidays yeah so what's the traditional rosh hashanah meal well because it's the new year so we had several things that were symbolic you know we had beans with black-eyed beans because they represent, like pomegranate seeds, represent fertility with the hope that you'll give birth, that you'll have more children in the family. Better not serve them at Rosh Hashanah for me. Not right away. I don't need any more children, but yes.

Not right away. Next in two years. I don't know, I've got but yes. Not right away. Next in two years. I don't know. I've got three. I think I'm done now. Oh, you've got three? Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, that's a lot. Yeah. Well done. Thank you. Yes, well done. And that you can work. I know. I'm very lucky.

Yeah. But you know what it's like being a working mother and you're a single parent. One can do it. Yeah. So black-eyed beans was one of the beans and um uh yes green things white things because green things is also for the new year for new life and the green things it could be a spinach omelette because you know it is like a like that and it's in Egypt we call them egga in in Lebanon it's adja we pronounce the j-ga and so we had egga of spinach and rice with spinach with herbs

so there is all this a lot of greenness but also white things so white things and purity so there was a coconut cake you know that sort of thing yeah and and also round things you know like meatballs chickpeas because roundness means the year is round. You know, that's why they do the challah. That is round. I didn't know that. Of course. For the new year. Right.

How do we... Shall I just cut a little bit? This is Claudia's yoghurt cake. You wouldn't put icing sugar on or anything like that to decorate? No, I like it like that. But you can put icing. Yeah, and I didn't have time to do your macerated strawberries. Yeah, but you don't need to.

Not too soon. I love it. It's so light. And it's everything you want from a cheesecake without feeling... It's just so delicious and light. Claudia Roden, thank you so much for coming over, for cooking for us, for letting us cook for you for being such a joy to listen to and tell us all your stories um could you come and stay for a week yes yes fill the

fridge just come and cook with me and talk to me it's really an honor if you can give me some recipes yeah i don't think so. Thank you for having me. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Mum's finishing Claudia Roden's wine. Because her lips have been near it. That's a bit creepy. No, I'm not. No, Alex has come down to eat the soup.

What do you think, mum? We've all had the book signed. It's really good. It's royalty. Yeah. She is royalty. There's a regality around her and just loved her. She's so sophisticated.

I know, mum. I feel like she may have to come more often because I feel like we both were very calm and kind to each other. And she thinks... There's not one swear word. Do you think that... Well, you couldn't have done. No.

Do you think, unless it was in French or Italian or Arabic or... I still don't know. What do you think of that? This is very good. I'm now on my third slice, and I'm supposed to be sugar free this month there's hardly any sugar in it I promise you

thank you to Claudia Roden this cookbook is so beautiful it's such a simple cookbook it's a real joy to have heard her stories she has over 20 books which I would like for christmas and presents please

you're not getting 20 books darling well i do feel like i've met the queen she was just a real treat absolutely loved that loved her stories loved having her in this room and loved the fact that she talked about how if she'd been on the sofa she would have felt the kitchen's her domain yeah um that was really really truly special we are very very lucky to have had claudia roden on table manners go and get one of her 20 something books but particularly med cookbook is out now thank you for listening the music you've heard on table manners is by peter duffy and pete fraser table manners is produced by alice williams